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18 2014-06-21 00:30:13 <jtimon> what's the reason why ScanHash_CryptoPP hashes with everything reversed while CBlockHeader::getHash doesn't?
19 2014-06-21 00:30:13 <jtimon> is SHA256 used in hash.h slower than SHA256Transform in miner.cpp?
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29 2014-06-21 00:42:11 <jtimon> if so, does anybody care about bitcoind's mining efficiency?
30 2014-06-21 00:43:41 <gmaxwell> jtimon: no, absolutely not, it's already like 4x slower than more efficient cpu miner code. It's only really useful for regtest/testnet.
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33 2014-06-21 00:45:27 <jtimon> so if I simplify miner.cpp maybe with some performance cost nobody will care, great
34 2014-06-21 00:46:27 <gmaxwell> (Personally I'd like to remove the miner completely, and start bundling bfgminer in our binary releases (since I think it's important that we continue to ship a complete implementation of the bitcoin system and not ghettoize mining by removing it).)
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36 2014-06-21 00:46:49 <gmaxwell> (perhaps with some minor enhancement to bfgminer so it can automatically read a bitcoin.conf like p2pool does)
37 2014-06-21 00:46:55 <jtimon> putting the blockheader in a struct with all fields reversed seems very ugly
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39 2014-06-21 00:47:38 <jtimon> I think it's interesting to have it for regtest and educational purposes
40 2014-06-21 00:47:58 <jtimon> thought if it's going to be inneficient it could be at least readable
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43 2014-06-21 00:49:08 <jtimon> this variable is set but never read directly, what an ugly hack:
44 2014-06-21 00:49:08 <jtimon> unsigned int& nBlockTime = *(unsigned int*)(pdata + 64 + 4);
45 2014-06-21 00:50:09 <gmaxwell> whatever you do, be mindful of: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4100
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50 2014-06-21 00:57:28 <gmaxwell> I suspect it may be redundant with some of what you're looking at, if soâ would be helpful if you could give it a review and an ack.
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52 2014-06-21 00:58:53 <jtimon> thanks
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60 2014-06-21 01:08:47 <Luke-Jr> [00:42:56] <gmaxwell> (perhaps with some minor enhancement to bfgminer so it can automatically read a bitcoin.conf like p2pool does) <-- that's a good idea.
61 2014-06-21 01:09:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't like bundling though. Maybe we should just distribute a "Bitcoin installer" that offers to download and install things with gitian checks.
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63 2014-06-21 01:11:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: even independantly of any group dist you should probably add the conf reading so you can do local block submission by default, for gbt users where there is already a bitcoind running on the same host.
64 2014-06-21 01:11:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, it seems like a good idea
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66 2014-06-21 01:12:03 <Luke-Jr> I wonder how practical it is to find bitcoin.conf though
67 2014-06-21 01:12:25 <gmaxwell> p2pool is fairly effective, should look at what it does.
68 2014-06-21 01:12:46 <gmaxwell> Petertodd's dustbegone does too, though I think I suggested he pattern it after p2pool.
69 2014-06-21 01:14:11 <Luke-Jr> p2pool has a giant Python standard library to lean on ;)
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74 2014-06-21 01:21:12 <andytoshi> my coinjoin client just copied exactly what bitcoind does
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82 2014-06-21 01:33:45 <lechuga_> lol@ghettoize mining
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86 2014-06-21 01:38:57 <Luke-Jr> it would be pretty neat if someone made an installer that could decide the best setup for the user based on simple questions and do it
87 2014-06-21 01:39:17 <Luke-Jr> eg, if they have storage/bandwidth/CPUtime, always install bitcoind even if they use Electrum as the wallet sw
88 2014-06-21 01:39:32 <Luke-Jr> (and configure Electrum to use localhost as its node)
89 2014-06-21 01:40:53 <mr_burdell> Luke-Jr: electrum server is a pretty big overhead for a desktop though
90 2014-06-21 01:41:13 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: is it? :|
91 2014-06-21 01:41:16 <mr_burdell> and definitely not designed for turning on and off
92 2014-06-21 01:41:25 <mr_burdell> it has to keep the utxo db
93 2014-06-21 01:41:25 <Luke-Jr> I thought it was just any bitcoin node
94 2014-06-21 01:41:28 <mr_burdell> so an extra 5 gb
95 2014-06-21 01:41:31 <Luke-Jr> meh
96 2014-06-21 01:41:54 <mr_burdell> which is why electrum can look up utxo's much faster than other lite clients
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98 2014-06-21 01:42:04 <Luke-Jr> still, could be a framework with Bitcoin-Qt vs Armory at first, and let the other wallets adapt :p
99 2014-06-21 01:42:16 <mr_burdell> true
100 2014-06-21 01:42:32 <mr_burdell> and reduce options for new users
101 2014-06-21 01:42:46 <mr_burdell> ppl don't like to make decisions
102 2014-06-21 01:43:07 <lechuga_> sometimes i do but i have a tough time deciding when
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107 2014-06-21 01:47:27 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: electrum also talks to multiple servers for censorship resistance
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109 2014-06-21 01:48:49 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: there's no need for that if you ran the server yourself
110 2014-06-21 01:52:03 <dsnrk> I mean it's not an option to turn it off
111 2014-06-21 01:52:22 <Luke-Jr> that's kinda lame :p
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118 2014-06-21 02:01:25 <mr_burdell> dsnrk: it is
119 2014-06-21 02:01:38 <mr_burdell> there's a command line option
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122 2014-06-21 02:02:50 <mr_burdell> plus it gets the list of servers from the server you're connected to, so if you connect to your own isolated server, it shouldn't find any others
123 2014-06-21 02:03:23 <kazcw> what's the point of connecting to multiple servers if it gets the server list from the first server it sees??
124 2014-06-21 02:03:44 <mr_burdell> oh, yeah... it does have a default list
125 2014-06-21 02:03:52 <mr_burdell> so I guess it runs through that
126 2014-06-21 02:04:06 <mr_burdell> not sure... I'd have to go look at it again
127 2014-06-21 02:05:00 <dsnrk> mr_burdell: not in the gui is what I mean.
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135 2014-06-21 02:12:38 <mr_burdell> hmmm... I guess that could be a bug, not sure a better way to do it... doesn't bitcoind do something similar?
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137 2014-06-21 02:12:53 <mr_burdell> gets a peer from dns? or gets a bunch?
138 2014-06-21 02:13:03 <mr_burdell> and then connects and asks for more peers
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151 2014-06-21 02:52:00 <cfields> sipa: yea, it's free. I did secp256k1 first as a test, to see if it's well received. Hoping to do it for bitcoin if it goes well.
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176 2014-06-21 03:31:36 <fanquake> ;;blocks
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359 2014-06-21 09:07:33 <petertodd> dsnrk: not quite - the message I was seeing was ProcessMessages(tx, 1 bytes), so transactions rather than pings. haven't seen the ping variant either (though these nodes are mainnet, not testnet)
360 2014-06-21 09:07:47 <petertodd> dsnrk: oh, reminds, me, I need to put some replace-by-fee nodes on testnet :)
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389 2014-06-21 10:02:23 <warren> anyone know of statistics of how often N-block reorgs happen on the network?
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395 2014-06-21 10:12:04 <Luke-Jr> LOL, is this really necessary? http://openport8333.com/
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399 2014-06-21 10:19:24 <gmaxwell> potentially counter productive... listening on residental broadband with a bufferbloaty router can cause really bad performance when one or two people stary yanking the blockchain from you, might make you switch off a full node entirely.
400 2014-06-21 10:20:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, that's well known :)
401 2014-06-21 10:21:01 <gmaxwell> (was commenting on luke's link which nags you to open the port)
402 2014-06-21 10:21:27 <wumpus> I know why we can't do it 'yet', but bandwidth controls on the full node would be really nice
403 2014-06-21 10:21:36 seven- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
404 2014-06-21 10:21:37 <gmaxwell> yep. Soon!
405 2014-06-21 10:21:47 <dizko> is there a simple way to build bitcoind with most of the libs statically linked the way they are in the reference binary? or was that done manually
406 2014-06-21 10:21:48 mapppum has joined
407 2014-06-21 10:21:55 <dizko> like, using autoconf, etc
408 2014-06-21 10:21:59 <wumpus> Port 8333 is OPEN! woohoo
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414 2014-06-21 10:24:09 <wumpus> dizko: use gitian
415 2014-06-21 10:24:31 <wumpus> there is no simple way to do that because it's definitely not simple in the first place
416 2014-06-21 10:24:49 <warren> using gitian is simpler than building on fedora =)
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419 2014-06-21 10:25:08 <warren> btw, what's going on with merging libsecp256k1?
420 2014-06-21 10:25:19 <wumpus> there are many crazy and frustrating edge cases if you try do do it manually, for example you need to compile all the dependency libraries using -fPIC otherwise they cannot be statically-linked into a position-independent binary
421 2014-06-21 10:25:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: cfields hasn't fixed it to NOT embed a copy yet :/
422 2014-06-21 10:25:41 <wumpus> (which meant that you cannot use the statically linked ilbs provided by the distro)
423 2014-06-21 10:25:54 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: we had that discusson on github - IMO it should embed a copy
424 2014-06-21 10:25:54 <warren> Luke-Jr: that sounds desireable to me
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426 2014-06-21 10:26:31 <dizko> wumpus: ok thanks for the tip
427 2014-06-21 10:26:38 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm fine with an *option* to use an external copy, but there are tons of reasons to not depend on some obscure new library with interface in heavy flux as external dependency
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429 2014-06-21 10:26:53 <gmaxwell> Well we're certantly not going to do anything but embed while the API is totally unfinished and not released yet.
430 2014-06-21 10:27:04 <wumpus> anyhow -- let's keep that discussion in the github request, no need to repeat it here
431 2014-06-21 10:27:07 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: at least it should be a submodule instead of a copy
432 2014-06-21 10:27:25 <Luke-Jr> copies are ugly :<
433 2014-06-21 10:27:32 <wumpus> Luke-Jr:we use *subtree* instead of submodule
434 2014-06-21 10:27:41 <Luke-Jr> subtree is braindead. sorry.
435 2014-06-21 10:27:46 <warren> where's the github discussion?
436 2014-06-21 10:27:48 <wumpus> according to many people it's superior this way, I don't want to argue really
437 2014-06-21 10:28:10 <wumpus> warren: on the pull request that does the integration maybe ?:p
438 2014-06-21 10:28:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: submodule is also braindead. In any case, doing it this way lets us have perfect control over consensus critical code. Less needed for libsecp256k1 since we're the primary user, but it's reasonable hyigine.
439 2014-06-21 10:28:42 <wumpus> also we already use subtree in many places, way to make it some inconsistent frankenstein monster if we now start using submodule
440 2014-06-21 10:28:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: subtree worksaround various shortcomings in submodule's current git-client-side implementation, but it's still an ugly hack
441 2014-06-21 10:29:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: submodule gives just as much control, just has some rough edges
442 2014-06-21 10:29:45 <wumpus> I'm really, really sick of all these arguments where there is technology A and technolgy B and they are pretty much indistinguishable except some small technical detail, and there are big arguments every time to switch to the other
443 2014-06-21 10:30:00 <wumpus> tldr; no
444 2014-06-21 10:30:19 <Luke-Jr> sigh
445 2014-06-21 10:30:20 <gmaxwell> bigger stuff to worry about. majority preference is the way it's working now.
446 2014-06-21 10:30:38 <gmaxwell> and the subtree stuff was a big improvement for leveldb, using two things would be less good.
447 2014-06-21 10:31:00 <wumpus> thi is just a waste of time, let's agree that we want the same thing, integrate secp256k1
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449 2014-06-21 10:31:53 <Luke-Jr> fine, as long as it *can* use a shared lib when available
450 2014-06-21 10:32:11 <wumpus> submit a pull by then, if it looks sane it will be merged
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454 2014-06-21 10:33:24 <Luke-Jr> k, I'll wait until after this gets merged
455 2014-06-21 10:33:27 seven- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
456 2014-06-21 10:33:40 <wumpus> and until a stable API peters out
457 2014-06-21 10:34:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: libsecp256k1 is going to be explicitly labled don't package until the api is done... so it'll be a little bit.
458 2014-06-21 10:34:35 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: libraries don't need stable APIs. that's why they're versioned..
459 2014-06-21 10:35:01 <wumpus> also we have to be really careful with distributions, as it is a security and consensus-critical library we can't have jokes like the bitcoind 0.3.xx in Ubuntu stable...
460 2014-06-21 10:35:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: not just ABI, but the whole API needs redesign... really rude to get people using a library and then basically change it out from under them.
461 2014-06-21 10:35:30 <wumpus> people will only be frustrated 'how do I get a newer version of this dep!!!'
462 2014-06-21 10:35:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: distributions *will* strip the library out and do this regardless; if we don't support it, it means third-party patching
463 2014-06-21 10:36:13 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that's their problem
464 2014-06-21 10:36:52 <wumpus> it's open source, people can mutilate it any way they want and make it do things that ewren't meant to... with openssl that already went very wrong once... :/
465 2014-06-21 10:37:14 <Luke-Jr> better not to force them to
466 2014-06-21 10:37:18 <gmaxwell> In any case, libsecp256k1 is still too far from production for this discussion.
467 2014-06-21 10:37:31 JackH has quit (Quit: JackH)
468 2014-06-21 10:37:46 <gmaxwell> Supporting a argument makes sense, and we'll do itâ though it may need to wait for libsecp256k1 to be packagable.
469 2014-06-21 10:37:49 <wumpus> strange definition of 'force'
470 2014-06-21 10:38:16 weilu has joined
471 2014-06-21 10:38:32 * Luke-Jr wonders when/if Fedora will get over secp256k1 (the curve)
472 2014-06-21 10:38:33 seven- has joined
473 2014-06-21 10:39:35 <warren> Perhaps Fedora wants a NIST-only coin...
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475 2014-06-21 10:40:36 <Luke-Jr> it would be nice if GBT2 could use secp256k1 for authentication
476 2014-06-21 10:42:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: re: dust-b-gone, what did you mean by "pattern it after p2pool"?
477 2014-06-21 10:42:52 <gmaxwell> Heh.. noticed the p2pool graphs on my p2pool node here showing the number of hashes the pool calculated in the last month "1.49 ZH" .. pretty sure this is the first time I've noticed the zetta- si prefix in actual use measuring something real.
478 2014-06-21 10:43:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: just the locations it checks.
479 2014-06-21 10:43:12 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ?
480 2014-06-21 10:43:28 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the context was automatically finding bitcoin.conf
481 2014-06-21 10:43:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, ok! I think I implemented that actually
482 2014-06-21 10:44:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I thought you meant strucure it like p2pool share chain somehow... which had me confused
483 2014-06-21 10:44:31 <gmaxwell> you did. I suggested luke look at p2pool and at your code, then commented that maybe yours is just like p2pool because I thought I suggested you look at how p2pool does it.
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485 2014-06-21 10:45:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, yeah, I didn't read enough of the context. In any case, the clever thing i do need to do is make it automatically add the dust txouts to other peoples' ANYONECANPAY txs... that and get other people to make ANYONECANPAY txs :P
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487 2014-06-21 10:46:27 <gmaxwell> needs wallet integration, I'm not sure how to handle integrating things that need a 'server'â for essential services I wouldn't want that, but I think a serverful dust be gon is fine so long as it doesn't allow client enumeration.. e.g. tor only.
488 2014-06-21 10:46:32 * Luke-Jr adds to his todo file before he forgets
489 2014-06-21 10:47:42 <Luke-Jr> I suppose I'll have to special-case bitcoind to try getnewaddress when one isn't provided too :x
490 2014-06-21 10:49:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, the interesting thing with it is that a sufficiently smart miner would strip out all the dust-b-gone inputs that paid fees less than their acceptance threshold - might as well just get rid of the dust on a per-txout basis, and ideally with the option of other peopl's txs
491 2014-06-21 10:50:24 * Luke-Jr notes dust-b-gone could conceivably just be a p2p extension to relay "forfeit" signatures
492 2014-06-21 10:50:48 <gmaxwell> petertodd: perhaps, carrying it all around in the flooding network isn't so elegant considering that its very low priority.
493 2014-06-21 10:51:01 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: well we already have that extension - each dust-b-gone txin is valid
494 2014-06-21 10:51:27 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
495 2014-06-21 10:51:46 <petertodd> see, if you're going to be doing SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY txs, you want to drop txins that pay really low fees automatically anyway, least it become a DoS attack to tack on low-value txins
496 2014-06-21 10:54:10 <Luke-Jr> actually, scratch the p2p dust-b-gone idea. it's a bad idea.
497 2014-06-21 10:54:33 <Luke-Jr> the whole reason they're dust is because they'd be a DoS risk.
498 2014-06-21 10:55:01 <gmaxwell> yea, well it could be made less wasteful, but probably not worth the complexity.
499 2014-06-21 10:55:04 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: indeed - what's good about dust-b-gone isn't making the UTXO set smaller, it's making deanonymization spam downright counterproductive
500 2014-06-21 10:55:17 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: did any of that confirm?
501 2014-06-21 10:55:26 <Luke-Jr> I have a ton in my wallet, but they're all unconfirmed
502 2014-06-21 10:55:38 <gmaxwell> though to throughly break the deanonymization spam it needs to become coinjoins and not SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY.
503 2014-06-21 10:55:39 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh, the process to get rid of the dust is manual, one sec...
504 2014-06-21 10:56:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sort of, if it's just SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY but not SIGHASH_NONE it's still coinjoin you know
505 2014-06-21 10:56:58 <gmaxwell> yea, still, really identifyable as a failed attempt vs standard behavior
506 2014-06-21 10:57:11 <gmaxwell> I agree thats its better than not dustbegoining.
507 2014-06-21 10:57:32 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: try resending your dust
508 2014-06-21 10:57:39 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ?
509 2014-06-21 10:57:50 <Luke-Jr> send unconfirmed dust?
510 2014-06-21 10:58:01 <Luke-Jr> what's the point?
511 2014-06-21 10:58:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, the thing is we can also expect users of various things to be adding small inputs to transactions themselves for fee bumping reasons, which makes dust vs. that be an anonymity set
512 2014-06-21 10:58:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: luke is telling you that he had dust payments to him which never confirmed.
513 2014-06-21 10:58:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell, Luke-Jr: ah, I get it, I thought you meant you'd run dust-b-gone
514 2014-06-21 10:58:59 <petertodd> I just checked and no-one's sent it dust for a few months
515 2014-06-21 10:59:15 dipendra has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
516 2014-06-21 10:59:26 <gmaxwell> I've not recieved any unsoliticed dust lately at all, except some of the p2pool donations were a bit small.
517 2014-06-21 10:59:36 <gmaxwell> I suspect whatever was doing a bunch of it stopped.
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519 2014-06-21 11:00:10 <petertodd> well until recently fees and min txout amounts had made it kinda expensive
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521 2014-06-21 11:01:21 <Luke-Jr> I don't think *any* of the spam ever confirmed for me
522 2014-06-21 11:01:37 napedia has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
523 2014-06-21 11:01:46 <Luke-Jr> and dust I acquired through other means got hand-picked into transactions :p
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530 2014-06-21 11:13:35 <dsnrk> just of note regarding dust outputs, a user posted a transaction recently that was made using vanilla bitcoin qt that had some very small sub-dust outputs in it. I was under the impression that > dust outputs would just be rolled into the fee? is it a regression that this user ended up with them in their transaction?
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532 2014-06-21 11:17:11 <petertodd> dsnrk: remember that the definition of dust changed recently
533 2014-06-21 11:17:18 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: you mean inputs?
534 2014-06-21 11:18:46 <sipa> dust outputs shouldn't be created using the normal wallet transaction creation code
535 2014-06-21 11:18:56 <sipa> but they are very small these days
536 2014-06-21 11:19:00 <sipa> with default relay fee
537 2014-06-21 11:19:44 <dsnrk> ah yes, I had the value of the dust output size off by a few
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540 2014-06-21 11:21:06 <dsnrk> does the coin selection routine avoid dust as well?
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542 2014-06-21 11:22:04 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: yes unless your wallet is absolutely flooded with it
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567 2014-06-21 11:53:05 <chichov> does the reference implementation currently only allow 2^32-1 as the transaction sequence number?
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571 2014-06-21 11:54:52 <sipa> no
572 2014-06-21 11:54:57 <sipa> any number is acceptable
573 2014-06-21 11:55:49 <sipa> but if all input's sequence numbers are 2^32-1, the transaction is automatically final
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575 2014-06-21 11:56:29 <chichov> does the transaction have to be final?
576 2014-06-21 11:56:49 <chichov> (in the reference implementation)
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579 2014-06-21 11:58:16 <chichov> nevermind, just found https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L504
580 2014-06-21 11:58:24 <chichov> does appear to be so
581 2014-06-21 11:58:51 <sipa> every transaction in a block must be final; this is a consensus rule
582 2014-06-21 11:59:21 <chichov> what about relaying?
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584 2014-06-21 12:00:08 <chichov> standardness rules seems to deny relaying to non-final transactions, correct?
585 2014-06-21 12:00:49 <dsnrk> chichov: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/b8b98d5642faf7b6acb88be9106a22512fc6020c/src/main.cpp#L504
586 2014-06-21 12:00:59 <gmaxwell> otherwise they make for a trivial DOS attack.
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588 2014-06-21 12:01:25 <chichov> dsnrk: same link that I've posted, heh
589 2014-06-21 12:01:57 <dsnrk> chichov: if it's not standard it won't be relayed.
590 2014-06-21 12:02:13 <chichov> alright, that's clear
591 2014-06-21 12:02:56 <chichov> funny, so nLockTime can be 0 and then the sequence numbers can be chosen arbitrarily
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676 2014-06-21 13:12:42 <SomeoneWeird> is there a doc somewhere with details on the p2p protocol?
677 2014-06-21 13:12:43 guest55213 has joined
678 2014-06-21 13:13:43 <sipa> ;;google bitcoin protocol wiki
679 2014-06-21 13:13:44 Cory has joined
680 2014-06-21 13:13:44 <gribble> Protocol specification - Bitcoin - Bitcoin Wiki: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification>; Protocol rules - Bitcoin - Bitcoin Wiki: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules>; API reference (JSON-RPC) - Bitcoin - Bitcoin Wiki: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)>
681 2014-06-21 13:13:59 <SomeoneWeird> c_c
682 2014-06-21 13:13:59 <sipa> (hardly upntondate or extensive)
683 2014-06-21 13:14:06 <sipa> up to date
684 2014-06-21 13:14:10 <SomeoneWeird> yeah
685 2014-06-21 13:14:15 SpicyShibe is now known as spicyshibe
686 2014-06-21 13:14:15 <SomeoneWeird> nothing better than that?
687 2014-06-21 13:14:25 <sipa> ;;google github bitcoin
688 2014-06-21 13:14:26 <gribble> bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin>; Bitcoin · GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin>; schildbach/bitcoin-wallet · GitHub: <https://github.com/schildbach/bitcoin-wallet>
689 2014-06-21 13:14:32 <SomeoneWeird> yeah yeah :P
690 2014-06-21 13:14:36 <SomeoneWeird> thanks, heh
691 2014-06-21 13:14:38 spicyshibe is now known as SpicyShibe
692 2014-06-21 13:14:53 <sipa> oh, the new dev documentation on bitcoin.org maybe
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695 2014-06-21 13:15:24 <SomeoneWeird> links to the wiki page
696 2014-06-21 13:16:00 <sipa> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide
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702 2014-06-21 13:18:54 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, the protocol spec in that links to the wiki :)
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707 2014-06-21 13:22:03 <sipa> right ok
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753 2014-06-21 14:25:47 <Aquilano> Where would the world wide web be without domain name servers?
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757 2014-06-21 14:28:21 <sipa> offtopic
758 2014-06-21 14:28:33 <Aquilano> lol
759 2014-06-21 14:28:43 <Aquilano> sorry perhaps it is
760 2014-06-21 14:29:01 seven has joined
761 2014-06-21 14:29:08 <SpicyShibe> Aquilano: Then it would be like phones are now. You would need to look up the number, or be told it.
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764 2014-06-21 14:32:23 <Aquilano> Imagine a resolution service that can shorthand bitcoin public keys, so instead of authorizing bitcoin to 1xkLLHW26h2AMKK9kWSqHhthtz24p6yvW, you couldauthorizing to "autobodyservice"
765 2014-06-21 14:32:36 lifty has joined
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767 2014-06-21 14:33:30 <dabura667> Namecoin
768 2014-06-21 14:33:35 <sipa> payment protocol
769 2014-06-21 14:33:48 <dabura667> any other plethora of ways, really.
770 2014-06-21 14:33:57 Pucilowski has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
771 2014-06-21 14:34:09 <dabura667> it's just that adoption hasn't been taken up that much
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774 2014-06-21 14:36:07 <Aquilano> No that I think of it, coinbase already does this with email addresses.
775 2014-06-21 14:36:14 benrcole has joined
776 2014-06-21 14:36:26 <Aquilano> "I think"
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778 2014-06-21 14:37:50 <mr_burdell> the problem with that is phishing and name squatting
779 2014-06-21 14:38:03 <dabura667> I personally think Bitcoin will eventually get to the point where we can have decentralized e-mail like aliases that can be chosen by the user, via Namecoin etc... It's possible now, just there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement in that direction. All people that tend to move towards the "making it easier for newbs" approach all go for centralized approaches. While Payment protocol is great, it still requires owning a server
780 2014-06-21 14:38:03 <dabura667> to serve up the certificates etc.
781 2014-06-21 14:38:29 <GAit> sipa: do you find it likely that a merchant would not want tx from prevouts that themselves have no confirms yet? has someone started thinking about how to tell in advance preferences?
782 2014-06-21 14:38:33 Emzy has joined
783 2014-06-21 14:38:52 <Aquilano> I spent all day yesterday hitting the pavement and trying to educate local shop owners. My hope was to get them to seriously consider adopting bitcoin as a payment system. The biggest problem I encountered was the complexity of the public key.
784 2014-06-21 14:38:57 Pucilowski has joined
785 2014-06-21 14:39:14 <mr_burdell> dabura667: but how many ppl are going to run namecoin nodes? If namecoin had an SPV client, it would help
786 2014-06-21 14:39:29 seven has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
787 2014-06-21 14:39:34 <GAit> Aquilano: do you think amex has to explain to merchant about this stuff? yet their services do use some public/private key mechanism
788 2014-06-21 14:39:45 <dabura667> yeah... a look-up only SPV for namecoin
789 2014-06-21 14:40:34 <GAit> Aquilano: I am not sure the right way to start a bitcoin conversation with merchant is with an introduction to cryptography
790 2014-06-21 14:40:41 <dabura667> mr_burdell: do you have to run a node to look it up?
791 2014-06-21 14:41:03 <mr_burdell> well, there are dns proxies, but then you trust the server
792 2014-06-21 14:41:04 <dabura667> So do .bit websites require viewers to run Namecoin nodes?
793 2014-06-21 14:41:10 <dabura667> oh ok
794 2014-06-21 14:41:18 <mr_burdell> like "dnschain"
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796 2014-06-21 14:41:24 <dabura667> ic
797 2014-06-21 14:41:38 <Aquilano> GAit: lol, I didn't even scratch the surface of cryptography.
798 2014-06-21 14:41:55 <mr_burdell> it would be better to do lookups directly on the network, but i'm not sure if servers index it in a way that would work
799 2014-06-21 14:42:26 <mr_burdell> and then you would need to do the spv verification, which I'm not sure how that extends to namecoin
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801 2014-06-21 14:42:58 <dabura667> hmm, maybe Hive etc. have it right. I mean, we all use e-mail clients like Gmail to obfuscate our friends' e-mail addresses anyways.
802 2014-06-21 14:43:14 <mr_burdell> have you looked at breadwallet for iphone?
803 2014-06-21 14:43:15 <dabura667> might as well just do the same and register addresses with Hive etc...
804 2014-06-21 14:43:24 <mr_burdell> i like that it doesn't even explain how it's rotating keys
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806 2014-06-21 14:43:43 <GAit> Aquilano, you mentioned public key, maybe to avoid crypto you could have said something along the lines of IBAN/swift-like code :)
807 2014-06-21 14:43:49 <dabura667> yes, sounds great... currently jailbroken on 6.1.4 so can't download it
808 2014-06-21 14:43:57 <mr_burdell> right now, everyone has their own version of it though: coinbase, pheeva, hive, onename, nameid
809 2014-06-21 14:44:13 <mr_burdell> probably more
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811 2014-06-21 14:44:23 <mr_burdell> greenaddress probably has one?
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813 2014-06-21 14:44:42 <dabura667> I think we need a decentralized static address protocol that generates new keys every transaction... Stealth Addresses minus the stealth.
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815 2014-06-21 14:45:05 <mr_burdell> well, would a bip32 pubkey chain work?
816 2014-06-21 14:45:19 <dabura667> security risk
817 2014-06-21 14:45:23 <mr_burdell> i guess you would get reuse once in a while if multiple people were paying you at once
818 2014-06-21 14:45:35 <mr_burdell> is it? just don't give out your private keys
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820 2014-06-21 14:46:00 <dabura667> security risk #1 = if somehow they EVER got their hands on 1 of your private keys, all your money is gone.
821 2014-06-21 14:46:40 <dsnrk> look into stealth addresses. you should take this to #bitcoin, it's off topic for this channel.
822 2014-06-21 14:49:19 <mr_burdell> seems like usability of bitcoin is always offtopic
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824 2014-06-21 14:50:01 <buZz> yes its offtopic here
825 2014-06-21 14:50:17 <mr_burdell> it's a development issue in my opinion
826 2014-06-21 14:50:35 <dabura667> This place is less of a "What should we do?" and more of a "How should we implement it in code?"
827 2014-06-21 14:51:27 <Aquilano> From what I can see at git, it seems more of "How can we make the code more reliable"
828 2014-06-21 14:52:51 <dabura667> Ok, so bitcoin-dev is basically /bitcoin/bitcoin git development discussion, and not helpdesk for SPV mobile clients etc...
829 2014-06-21 14:53:16 <dsnrk> yes. ambling topics about features you want are off topic.
830 2014-06-21 14:53:58 <dabura667> developer discussion for things besides /bitcoin/bitcoin...? Not ok?
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833 2014-06-21 14:55:43 <dsnrk> assume that every core developer reads the entire log to make sure they haven't missed anything important. that's impossible if it's always full of whatever weird ideas people want others to write.
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947 2014-06-21 17:06:48 <G_Qu> Afternoon everyone.
948 2014-06-21 17:07:36 BitCoroner has joined
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950 2014-06-21 17:08:04 <G_Qu> I was wondering if anyone could help me understand why I continually get the same JSON error prompt when I believe I'm following the correct format for createrawtransaction?
951 2014-06-21 17:08:10 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
952 2014-06-21 17:08:14 <G_Qu> in bash
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962 2014-06-21 17:22:23 <pigeons> G_Qu: p
963 2014-06-21 17:22:29 <pigeons> 0bin it
964 2014-06-21 17:23:05 <G_Qu> hi pigeons thanks for answering. i'm new to this, so i'm not sure how to do that :p
965 2014-06-21 17:23:45 <sipa> you go to 0bin, paste it, give the link here
966 2014-06-21 17:24:08 <G_Qu> oh haha sorry. i thought you were referring to a command in bash. one sec
967 2014-06-21 17:24:28 <jcorgan> is the contrib/debian setup used for anything officially?
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979 2014-06-21 17:42:36 <G_Qu> pigeons: here it is http://0bin.net/paste/1BQd6u3D8qOsr+Uv#UDb0Oy863x+469xo5i3MuFHKGwH4NjOTis+y8r4XV/o=
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982 2014-06-21 17:44:05 <sipa> G_Qu: paste the command you're sending; not the error you get
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997 2014-06-21 17:52:24 <G_Qu> ok thank sipa
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999 2014-06-21 17:53:00 <G_Qu> sipa pigeons http://0bin.net/paste/Zs4gOTRP254oxn03#tp+6D1SZRCwhs0s4K+WiE561fW2dC2yE92u0L7C0E/A=
1000 2014-06-21 17:54:04 <sipa> i think you misunderstand what createrawtransaction is supposed to do
1001 2014-06-21 17:54:13 <sipa> you just give it some hash?
1002 2014-06-21 17:54:45 <sipa> you need to give it parameters to build a new transaction (which inputs, what amounts, what destination addresses, ...)
1003 2014-06-21 17:54:58 <sipa> try ./bitcoin-cli help createrawtransaction
1004 2014-06-21 17:55:09 deerBE has joined
1005 2014-06-21 17:55:21 <G_Qu> thanks sipa. that will work in ./bitcoind?
1006 2014-06-21 17:55:34 <sipa> yes, but bitcoind for RPC commands is deprecated since 0.9
1007 2014-06-21 17:55:40 <sipa> and will be removed in 0.10
1008 2014-06-21 17:55:46 <G_Qu> oh i see
1009 2014-06-21 17:55:56 <sipa> but yes, both bitcoin-cli and bitcoind will work
1010 2014-06-21 17:56:14 <G_Qu> thank you very much
1011 2014-06-21 17:56:32 <sipa> also, please use #bitcoin in the future; this is not development related
1012 2014-06-21 17:56:44 <G_Qu> ok will do. sorry
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1041 2014-06-21 18:43:31 <petertodd> If you're already using estimatefees on mainnet in an automated system, you really, really need to read this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4250#issuecomment-46760891 tl;dr: there's no upper bound on the estimates it will produce, even multiple BTC/KB.
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1045 2014-06-21 18:45:13 <dsnrk> aren't super large fee transactions non-standard?
1046 2014-06-21 18:45:21 <petertodd> dsnrk: no
1047 2014-06-21 18:45:23 <dsnrk> I thought there was footgun protection on that
1048 2014-06-21 18:45:28 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1050 2014-06-21 18:45:50 <dsnrk> must just be createrawtransaction?
1051 2014-06-21 18:45:52 <petertodd> dsnrk: sendrawtransaction has some footgun protection, but we're still talking some very expensive transactions, and the wallet code bypasses those protections
1052 2014-06-21 18:47:34 <poutine> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L940-944 <- some basic protection
1053 2014-06-21 18:47:59 <petertodd> poutine: yeah, that's 0.1BTC - $50/tx
1054 2014-06-21 18:48:19 <dsnrk> petertodd: beter than a 1000BTC transaction.
1055 2014-06-21 18:48:25 <petertodd> poutine: also like I say, the wallet code calls AcceptToMemoryPool() with that protection bypassed
1056 2014-06-21 18:48:51 <dsnrk> petertodd: yes, poutine was just confirming that I remembered wrong (I thought it was an isstandard rule, maybe it should be)
1057 2014-06-21 18:48:52 <petertodd> poutine: read the pull-req comment - I managed to get Gavin's fee estimation code to send a transaction with a 1BTC fee
1058 2014-06-21 18:49:07 weilu has joined
1059 2014-06-21 18:49:18 <petertodd> dsnrk: why? if people want to throw away money let them
1060 2014-06-21 18:50:01 <dsnrk> for the same reason my car has a box around the gears. if people want to stick their hands in it, let them do it right?
1061 2014-06-21 18:50:28 <petertodd> dsnrk: the "box" is sendrawtransaction etc, and there are valid-usecases for high-fee transactions
1062 2014-06-21 18:50:31 benrcole has joined
1063 2014-06-21 18:51:05 <dsnrk> from the GUI? hardly
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1065 2014-06-21 18:51:28 <petertodd> dsnrk: yes, which is a bug - the wallet should not bypass the insane fees protection.
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1067 2014-06-21 18:51:52 * dsnrk nods in agreement
1068 2014-06-21 18:52:52 <petertodd> basically what we need is a sane maxfee setting, and any attempt to send a transaction, wallet or rpc, with a higher fee than that throws an error. with fee estimation it'd act as an upper limit to make sure if you get sybil attacked you aren't tricked into sending ultra-high-fee transactions
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1071 2014-06-21 18:54:33 <petertodd> i suspect what you really want is to do fee estimation by separately estimating fees based on purely blockchain data, and then fees based on what mempool transactions end up in blocks, and taking the minimum of those two numbers. Combine it with replace-by-fee so if a transaction gets stuck you can bump the fee later.
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1073 2014-06-21 18:56:27 <mr_burdell> should also take into account the output sizes
1074 2014-06-21 18:56:33 <petertodd> mr_burdell: why?
1075 2014-06-21 18:56:41 <mr_burdell> some miners mine free transactions if the outputs are above a certain size
1076 2014-06-21 18:57:02 <mr_burdell> at least I think that's how it's working... I obviously can't see their exact config
1077 2014-06-21 18:57:09 <petertodd> mr_burdell: right, priority, that'll go away soon enough - not very interesting
1078 2014-06-21 18:57:11 <mr_burdell> just looking at tx included in blocks
1079 2014-06-21 18:57:15 <dsnrk> if fee > outputs should probably be a rule.
1080 2014-06-21 18:57:16 <mr_burdell> oh ok
1081 2014-06-21 18:57:36 <petertodd> dsnrk: like I say, there are valid usecases for that
1082 2014-06-21 18:57:43 <dsnrk> .. from the GUI.
1083 2014-06-21 18:58:20 <petertodd> dsnrk: well, you'd still be rather unhappy if you sent 1000 BTC and had a 1BTC fee :)
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1085 2014-06-21 18:58:57 <dsnrk> I don't think you can sum up a rule like that in one statement though, fee > outputs would just be part of it.
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1088 2014-06-21 18:59:21 <mr_burdell> couldn't a mining pool drive up all the fees just by sending themselves tx with high fees?
1089 2014-06-21 18:59:37 <mr_burdell> i guess that's equivalent to peter's point in that github post
1090 2014-06-21 19:00:04 <petertodd> mr_burdell: yes, that's why I said take the minimum of both - I also proposed that miners broadcast near-pow proofs to prove transaction propagation
1091 2014-06-21 19:03:03 <jcorgan> petertodd: could you also look at the fees of the mempool TXes that *haven't* made it into blocks, to get sort of a "upper lower-limit"? or at least for sanity checking?
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1093 2014-06-21 19:04:39 <petertodd> jcorgan: yeah, there's a lot of minor optimizations you can make, but fundemental is the issue that you having a transaction isn't proof that miners have it, or if they did, would mine it
1094 2014-06-21 19:05:14 <jgarzik> heh
1095 2014-06-21 19:05:21 <jgarzik> mr_burdell, is your first name George? :)
1096 2014-06-21 19:05:42 <mr_burdell> well, not my real name, but yeah
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1099 2014-06-21 19:06:08 <petertodd> mr_burdell: nice university
1100 2014-06-21 19:06:09 <mr_burdell> george p
1101 2014-06-21 19:06:58 <jgarzik> We have three or four George P. Burdells in the bitcoin community. It's pretty cool.
1102 2014-06-21 19:07:11 <jcorgan> fair enough, just wondering how much information is in the "didn't make it into a block yet" sample set. seems like it would be less prone to manipulation.
1103 2014-06-21 19:07:14 <mr_burdell> petertodd: but wouldn't that only help the non-replace by fee? and help people accept zero conf?
1104 2014-06-21 19:07:16 <jgarzik> (I went to GT)
1105 2014-06-21 19:07:24 <mr_burdell> unless that's what you want
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1107 2014-06-21 19:07:44 <mr_burdell> didn't bitpay start at the GT incubator? or a different one?
1108 2014-06-21 19:07:57 <petertodd> mr_burdell: ?
1109 2014-06-21 19:08:38 <mr_burdell> petertodd: if miners are sending proofs that they have a tx and will mine it, then a merchant can see those proofs and once it's broadcasted by a certain majority of miners, they can assume low risk in accepting it
1110 2014-06-21 19:08:42 <mr_burdell> unless you have replace by fee
1111 2014-06-21 19:09:27 <petertodd> mr_burdell: yeah, it's just proof that the tx got to the miners, nothing more
1112 2014-06-21 19:09:43 <petertodd> mr_burdell: if you do make it more than that you've changed the economics of bitcoin
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1120 2014-06-21 19:16:44 <jgarzik> mr_burdell, nah, just a bunch of GT grads doing their thing. :) Our 2 co-founders are GT grads, and maybe 75% of our hires went to GT
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1142 2014-06-21 19:50:05 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, in the middle of the new mexico desert i have i have LTE
1143 2014-06-21 19:50:12 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: lol
1144 2014-06-21 19:50:22 Lexa has joined
1145 2014-06-21 19:50:22 <petertodd> that's flat places for you...
1146 2014-06-21 19:50:26 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1147 2014-06-21 19:51:23 <phantomcircuit> $ ping 8.8.8.8 -Artt min/avg/max/mdev = 83.552/94.996/104.641/5.771 ms, ipg/ewma 200.766/95.412 ms
1148 2014-06-21 19:51:25 <phantomcircuit> lol
1149 2014-06-21 19:51:51 <dsnrk> 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=0 ttl=58 time=694.037 ms
1150 2014-06-21 19:52:07 <petertodd> dsnrk: where are you? under the !@#$ sea? :P
1151 2014-06-21 19:52:11 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, i guess cell service in the us isn't *that* bad
1152 2014-06-21 19:52:19 <phantomcircuit> smells like satelite
1153 2014-06-21 19:52:25 <sipa> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 13.898/14.600/15.227/0.507 ms
1154 2014-06-21 19:53:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, nom nom
1155 2014-06-21 19:53:18 <dsnrk> petertodd: phantomcircuit: I went with the cheap ISP that doesn't like peering with anybody.
1156 2014-06-21 19:53:47 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, that is
1157 2014-06-21 19:53:49 <phantomcircuit> lol
1158 2014-06-21 19:53:51 <phantomcircuit> why
1159 2014-06-21 19:54:03 <sipa> from my phone on 3G:,rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 32.635/35.782/44.359/3.083 ms
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1161 2014-06-21 19:54:41 <dsnrk> phantomcircuit: it's not *always* that bad, I cherry picked a bad response. there's a good reason I use MOSH though.
1162 2014-06-21 19:55:14 <petertodd> from where I'm at: rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.034/0.056/0.152/0.015 ms
1163 2014-06-21 19:55:21 <petertodd> shit, I hear footsteps, brb
1164 2014-06-21 19:55:40 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, just find a vpn provider with good peering with your ISP
1165 2014-06-21 19:55:47 <phantomcircuit> magic good peering to everywhere
1166 2014-06-21 19:55:52 <phantomcircuit> that's what i do on comcast...
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1168 2014-06-21 19:57:25 <dsnrk> I'll probably just move to a decent ISP, but I don't feel like sitting in the 2 hour call queue to cancel.
1169 2014-06-21 19:59:38 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=dUtyJSGb
1170 2014-06-21 19:59:41 <phantomcircuit> nom nom powers of 2
1171 2014-06-21 19:59:54 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: lol, nice
1172 2014-06-21 20:00:06 <phantomcircuit> (does not yet get a new address for each output)
1173 2014-06-21 20:00:29 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: is there a CJ implementation to go with that?
1174 2014-06-21 20:00:59 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, not yet
1175 2014-06-21 20:01:25 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, some moon math to make DoS less of an issue would be nice
1176 2014-06-21 20:02:43 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I suspect solving DoS with two-party mixes is the way to go, just for simplicities sake. equally PoW anti-dos (e.g. bitmessage)
1177 2014-06-21 20:03:24 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, opened the door for like two seconds
1178 2014-06-21 20:03:29 <phantomcircuit> instantly insanely hot in here
1179 2014-06-21 20:04:14 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: remind me not to move there :P
1180 2014-06-21 20:04:39 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, it's 95F outside
1181 2014-06-21 20:04:51 <petertodd> gah
1182 2014-06-21 20:05:27 <dsnrk> phantomcircuit: what's that in a sane unit?
1183 2014-06-21 20:06:05 <petertodd> dsnrk: 307.59K
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1187 2014-06-21 20:11:54 <deego> lol
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1190 2014-06-21 20:14:02 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, exhaust temp for normal mining machines
1191 2014-06-21 20:14:11 Application has joined
1192 2014-06-21 20:14:12 <phantomcircuit> unlimited CFM
1193 2014-06-21 20:14:53 <ahmed_> makomk: does coiledcoin still work? i cant even get it compiled
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1195 2014-06-21 20:16:08 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/compare/poweroftwooutputs
1196 2014-06-21 20:16:28 <phantomcircuit> you like my super ghetto algo to decompose into powers of 2
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1198 2014-06-21 20:19:04 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: of course, you realize you're making it obvious what is the change...
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1201 2014-06-21 20:19:59 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, nope, since it's doing it to both change and the intended output
1202 2014-06-21 20:20:06 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: ah, I see it now
1203 2014-06-21 20:20:11 <phantomcircuit> it's only obvious if i have it use a new change output
1204 2014-06-21 20:20:14 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yeah, that's good
1205 2014-06-21 20:20:33 <dsnrk> phantomcircuit: warmer than my mining room but cooler than KNCs ;)
1206 2014-06-21 20:21:08 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yeah it would only use a new output change address if using stealth or if it's got a bunch of addresses from the payment protocol
1207 2014-06-21 20:21:52 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: pity this isn't a protocol rule - it is a fair bit more expensive
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1211 2014-06-21 20:23:13 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i think that with continuous coinjoin mixing you could correct that
1212 2014-06-21 20:23:30 <phantomcircuit> ie anytime your wallet has 2 outputs for the same amount, it coinjoins them into a larger output
1213 2014-06-21 20:23:36 davout has joined
1214 2014-06-21 20:24:28 <jgarzik> RE CoinJoin, I always thought that there needed to be a regular swap meet (automated), where people may mix inputs/outputs of equal value. This multi-value stuff is a bunch of traceable crap.
1215 2014-06-21 20:24:29 <petertodd> i mean, my point is that this vs. just using two outputs is probably alwasy going to be more expensive over the long run than any splitting scheme
1216 2014-06-21 20:25:15 <jgarzik> Plus wallets need background defrag + coinjoin
1217 2014-06-21 20:25:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: that's why DarkWallet's model is to have people who need tx's done right now and people who just want to mix coins, and the latter copy the values of the former so every tx has some indistinguishable amounts
1218 2014-06-21 20:25:52 <jgarzik> doesn't help as long as amounts differ
1219 2014-06-21 20:26:00 <jgarzik> some mild obfuscation, sure
1220 2014-06-21 20:26:17 <petertodd> jgarzik: that's my point, the amounts don't differ - the people who are mixing coins in the background copy the amounts of the people who want to send a tx right now
1221 2014-06-21 20:26:31 <jgarzik> ah, ok. Yeah, that works.
1222 2014-06-21 20:26:33 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yeah it would make the blockchain larger, but it could, if done the way i just articulated, reduce the size of the utxo
1223 2014-06-21 20:26:49 <jgarzik> Need to change fee structure to incentivize UTXO shrinkage.
1224 2014-06-21 20:26:59 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: well, utxo set size isn't the dealbreaker people think it is with txo commitments
1225 2014-06-21 20:27:12 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1226 2014-06-21 20:27:32 <petertodd> jgarzik: better to just implement TXO commitments with a fixed UTXO set size if you also want UTXO commitments (say, past two years of UTXO's or something)
1227 2014-06-21 20:27:32 <jgarzik> petertodd, UTXO is nonetheless hit on every single "inv"
1228 2014-06-21 20:27:53 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, doesn't a txo commitment basically save the current utxo as a snapshot to the blockchain?
1229 2014-06-21 20:27:55 <petertodd> jgarzik: so what?
1230 2014-06-21 20:28:30 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: txo commitments are an insertion ordered merkle tree, this means for old outputs that have dropped out of the utxo set you can still spend them, but by providing a TXO commitment proof to prove they are valid
1231 2014-06-21 20:28:52 seven has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1232 2014-06-21 20:29:32 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, ah, so full validating nodes would still need to walk the entire chain to validate
1233 2014-06-21 20:29:54 <phantomcircuit> so bloating would be bad, but not super bad unless the max block size was increased
1234 2014-06-21 20:29:59 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: neither UTXO or TXO commitments change that if you want 100% validation
1235 2014-06-21 20:30:27 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, ah
1236 2014-06-21 20:30:33 <phantomcircuit> well
1237 2014-06-21 20:30:47 mrkent has joined
1238 2014-06-21 20:30:51 <phantomcircuit> ~52GB/year at 1MB/block isn't that bad for a validating node
1239 2014-06-21 20:30:53 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1240 2014-06-21 20:30:53 mrkent has joined
1241 2014-06-21 20:30:54 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: my point is that the working data set you would need to keep is a fixed size with TXO commitments, with UTXO commitments the data required to create the UTXO commitment digest has no max size limit
1242 2014-06-21 20:31:14 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: sure, I've always argued that at the *current* settings things aren't *that* bad
1243 2014-06-21 20:31:51 cypherpunk01 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1244 2014-06-21 20:31:55 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: it'd be nice though if we could, say, guarantee that running a full mining node will never require more than x GB worth of disk space.
1245 2014-06-21 20:31:59 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, well and with coinjoin probably most peoples transactions could be squashed into a single transaction per block
1246 2014-06-21 20:32:16 <phantomcircuit> but getting everybody to coordinate with the same mechanism is going to be challenging
1247 2014-06-21 20:32:18 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: sure, but that doesn't save much space
1248 2014-06-21 20:32:31 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, every byte counts!
1249 2014-06-21 20:32:36 <phantomcircuit> (not really)
1250 2014-06-21 20:32:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: some people contacted me on oftc #bitcoin and asked to organize a join using andy's tool tomorrow.
1251 2014-06-21 20:32:51 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: even for two party mixes it's a %5 savings or something - very low
1252 2014-06-21 20:34:37 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Mainly thinking abstractly. There would be more participation if it was a regular event.
1253 2014-06-21 20:34:38 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, actually i guess you could combine merging equal sized outputs with the send
1254 2014-06-21 20:34:50 <phantomcircuit> it shouldn't be *too* bad
1255 2014-06-21 20:35:05 <phantomcircuit> it also happens to create a good amount of txouts which are below the dust threshold
1256 2014-06-21 20:35:09 <phantomcircuit> so pool fees would increase
1257 2014-06-21 20:35:11 * phantomcircuit whistles
1258 2014-06-21 20:35:22 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: heh
1259 2014-06-21 20:35:32 chainey has quit (Quit: Connection reset by beer)
1260 2014-06-21 20:36:23 samesong has joined
1261 2014-06-21 20:36:36 <phantomcircuit> ah yes
1262 2014-06-21 20:36:44 <phantomcircuit> inland border patrol checkpoint
1263 2014-06-21 20:36:47 <phantomcircuit> loverly
1264 2014-06-21 20:37:04 <petertodd> ugh
1265 2014-06-21 20:37:08 dsfrds has joined
1266 2014-06-21 20:37:14 <dsfrds> hey folks
1267 2014-06-21 20:37:29 mapppum has joined
1268 2014-06-21 20:37:34 <dsfrds> how i can display some old transaction in command line?
1269 2014-06-21 20:37:41 Burrito has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1270 2014-06-21 20:37:41 <dsfrds> say I sent coins to someone ages ago
1271 2014-06-21 20:38:07 Burrito has joined
1272 2014-06-21 20:38:10 <petertodd> dsfrds: you need to turn the txindex on with txindex=1 in your bitcoin.conf, and then reindex the blockchain
1273 2014-06-21 20:38:54 <sipa> or if it's in your own wallet, you can just use gettransaction
1274 2014-06-21 20:39:06 <petertodd> sipa: that ^
1275 2014-06-21 20:39:18 <petertodd> er, I mean: dsfrds: that ^
1276 2014-06-21 20:39:23 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, lol
1277 2014-06-21 20:39:28 <phantomcircuit> "are you a us citizen"
1278 2014-06-21 20:39:30 <phantomcircuit> "yes"
1279 2014-06-21 20:39:32 <phantomcircuit> ok bye
1280 2014-06-21 20:41:42 <sipa> jgarzik: i'd like to avoid unsigned merges in our repository
1281 2014-06-21 20:42:24 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1282 2014-06-21 20:42:36 <phantomcircuit> the keyboard on my laptop is hot
1283 2014-06-21 20:42:37 <phantomcircuit> with the ac on full blast
1284 2014-06-21 20:42:46 <phantomcircuit> people should not live here
1285 2014-06-21 20:43:19 <dsnrk> 35° is nothing. call me when it hits 45° and then you're allowed to complain.
1286 2014-06-21 20:43:55 <petertodd> phantomcircuit, dsnrk: I suggest my parents place instead: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqF9aDoCUAAH9ik.jpg:large
1287 2014-06-21 20:44:16 <petertodd> sipa: +1
1288 2014-06-21 20:45:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: replace the hardcoded insanefees thing with a maxfee + maxfeekb maybe?
1289 2014-06-21 20:45:31 erasmospunk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1290 2014-06-21 20:46:19 <sipa> dsnrk: depends on humidity
1291 2014-06-21 20:46:25 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, we're gonna be going through death valley
1292 2014-06-21 20:46:30 <phantomcircuit> it's gonna be waayyyy more than that
1293 2014-06-21 20:46:43 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1294 2014-06-21 20:46:53 Pucilowski has joined
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1296 2014-06-21 20:49:18 <dsfrds> sipa works fine - now can I list transactions send to specific address somehow?
1297 2014-06-21 20:49:34 <dsfrds> phantomcircuit: 35C is nice
1298 2014-06-21 20:49:51 go1111111 has joined
1299 2014-06-21 20:49:54 <dsnrk> dsfrds: you might find this useful https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-documentation
1300 2014-06-21 20:50:06 <jcorgan> phantomcircuit: i went through Death Valley one time at 122F (50C). Had to turn the AC off in my car to keep it from overheating :)
1301 2014-06-21 20:50:21 erasmospunk has joined
1302 2014-06-21 20:50:29 <dsfrds> dsnrk: ty
1303 2014-06-21 20:50:37 StarenseN has joined
1304 2014-06-21 20:51:39 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1305 2014-06-21 20:51:40 <dsnrk> dsfrds: it's pretty new but very decent for most topics
1306 2014-06-21 20:52:02 ProfMac has joined
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1308 2014-06-21 20:53:12 <jcorgan> dsfrds: there's a way to search transactions sent to a particular address, but it is officially frowned upon and exists only as a patch. It does require adding about 8GB additional data to your datadir in the form of a new index.
1309 2014-06-21 20:53:14 coingenuity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1316 2014-06-21 20:54:57 <dsfrds> jcorgan: i managed to do it :) I used listtransactions "" 600 - before I did not know how to make it show more than 10 :)
1317 2014-06-21 20:57:20 <dsfrds> is there some open source block explorer apart abe?
1318 2014-06-21 20:57:59 <dsnrk> Abe is uselessly slow. Insight is probably the next best, but it's unstable to the point of uselessness.
1319 2014-06-21 20:58:49 <dsnrk> I've given up, but the only way I could keep it running was `while true; do ./insight.sh; done`
1320 2014-06-21 21:01:44 wallet42 has joined
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1325 2014-06-21 21:10:26 tombtc has quit (Quit: Wychodzi)
1326 2014-06-21 21:12:15 GM0127 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1329 2014-06-21 21:20:09 <phantomcircuit> <jcorgan> phantomcircuit: i went through Death Valley one time at 122F (50C). Had to turn the AC off in my car to keep it from overheating :)
1330 2014-06-21 21:20:14 <phantomcircuit> the key is to turn on recirculation
1331 2014-06-21 21:20:28 mrkent has joined
1332 2014-06-21 21:21:11 <phantomcircuit> it's raining
1333 2014-06-21 21:21:17 <phantomcircuit> in the middle of the desert
1334 2014-06-21 21:21:18 <phantomcircuit> >.>
1335 2014-06-21 21:22:10 <lorenzo_> nice
1336 2014-06-21 21:22:35 cystic has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1337 2014-06-21 21:23:00 weilu has joined
1338 2014-06-21 21:27:26 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1339 2014-06-21 21:27:50 embicoin has joined
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1343 2014-06-21 21:32:01 <makomk> ahmed_: probably not, where'd you even get the source from anyway?
1344 2014-06-21 21:32:13 <ahmed_> makomk: github on mmpool's account
1345 2014-06-21 21:32:21 <lorenzo_> someone experienced with bitcoinJ ?
1346 2014-06-21 21:32:34 <ahmed_> makomk: https://github.com/mmpool/coiledcoin
1347 2014-06-21 21:32:50 <ahmed_> want to try merged mining on bitcoin main net with a low diff coin
1348 2014-06-21 21:32:55 <ahmed_> (unless u know of another)
1349 2014-06-21 21:34:07 Knuk__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1354 2014-06-21 21:42:46 <dsnrk> sipa: solved the ping message thing from yesterday. dodgy BIP31 client as you said.
1355 2014-06-21 21:45:21 AnoAnon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1358 2014-06-21 21:46:59 <chichov> what parts of a transaction can be replaced if one wants to use transaction replacement?
1359 2014-06-21 21:47:18 <sipa> transaction replacement as it was intended? because currently it's disabled
1360 2014-06-21 21:47:22 AnoAnon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1361 2014-06-21 21:47:34 <chichov> 1) Can inputs be added/removed? 2) Can inputs be modified? 3) What about the outputs?
1362 2014-06-21 21:47:40 <chichov> yes, as it was intended
1363 2014-06-21 21:49:40 <chichov> sipa: do you have any advice?
1364 2014-06-21 21:52:15 <petertodd> chichov: what are you trying to do?
1365 2014-06-21 21:52:24 <shesek> sipa, just "currently"? I understand that nSequence is probably never going to work...
1366 2014-06-21 21:52:36 <sipa> shesek: i don't expect it to
1367 2014-06-21 21:52:40 <petertodd> shesek: the code was removed too
1368 2014-06-21 21:52:46 <chichov> petertodd: nothing in particular, just writing up a spec
1369 2014-06-21 21:52:48 <sipa> but i don't know the future :)
1370 2014-06-21 21:52:49 <petertodd> chichov: for what?
1371 2014-06-21 21:53:02 <sipa> chichov: as far as specification is concerned, transaction replacement does not exist
1372 2014-06-21 21:53:11 <chichov> petertodd: for myself and everybody else?
1373 2014-06-21 21:53:26 <petertodd> chichov: well, like sipa says, tx replacement doesn't exist - nSequence is just a number
1374 2014-06-21 21:53:28 <chichov> sipa: how about non-standard transactions?
1375 2014-06-21 21:53:38 <sipa> what about them?
1376 2014-06-21 21:53:59 <sipa> from the point of view of that same code, non-standard transactions don't exist either
1377 2014-06-21 21:54:05 <sipa> as they are ignored for mempool, relay and mining
1378 2014-06-21 21:54:09 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1379 2014-06-21 21:54:23 <chichov> well, the transaction replacement mechanism is only disabled in the reference implementation
1380 2014-06-21 21:54:29 <petertodd> sipa: or equally, from the point of view of the protocol, tx replacement doesn't exist and non-standard transactions are meaningless
1381 2014-06-21 21:54:32 <petertodd> chichov: the code has been removed
1382 2014-06-21 21:54:47 <chichov> ouch, alright
1383 2014-06-21 21:54:56 <sipa> chichov: the concept of standardness or relay policy or replacement policy only exists within the context of that reference implementation
1384 2014-06-21 21:54:58 digitalmagus8 has joined
1385 2014-06-21 21:55:01 <sipa> other code can do as it pleases
1386 2014-06-21 21:55:04 <petertodd> chichov: prior to that it had been commented out for literally years
1387 2014-06-21 21:55:22 <sipa> if you're asking about standardness, the only meaningful answer is to how the reference client behaves right now
1388 2014-06-21 21:55:31 <sipa> it's not a network rule; just a policy of one implementation
1389 2014-06-21 21:55:40 <petertodd> chichov: e.g. https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/replace-by-fee-v0.9.1 does tx replacement by fee
1390 2014-06-21 21:55:45 <chichov> exactly, that's what I mean
1391 2014-06-21 21:56:15 <chichov> how does that work?
1392 2014-06-21 21:56:18 <sipa> so you can ask what that implementation does now, and the answer is: transaction replacement does not exist
1393 2014-06-21 21:56:28 <petertodd> chichov: well, basically the facts are tx replacement based on nSequence is a historical curiosity
1394 2014-06-21 21:56:44 <sipa> or you can ask what other implementations do, like satoshi's original code
1395 2014-06-21 21:56:51 <petertodd> chichov: how does replace-by-fee work
1396 2014-06-21 21:56:55 <petertodd> chichov: ?
1397 2014-06-21 21:56:56 <chichov> petertodd: yep
1398 2014-06-21 21:57:09 <sipa> "choose the highest fee in case of conflict"
1399 2014-06-21 21:57:28 <chichov> and a conflict arises in which situation?
1400 2014-06-21 21:57:35 <sipa> a double spend
1401 2014-06-21 21:57:46 <sipa> two different transactions trying to spend the same input
1402 2014-06-21 21:57:47 <chichov> attempt to spend the same output in two different transactions?
1403 2014-06-21 21:57:48 <chichov> ah yea
1404 2014-06-21 21:57:56 <sipa> sorry, have an input spending the same output
1405 2014-06-21 21:58:23 <petertodd> chichov: see https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools for how it gets used
1406 2014-06-21 21:58:36 <chichov> petertodd: alright, I'll take a look into it
1407 2014-06-21 21:59:12 <petertodd> chichov: there may be some % of the hashing power supporting it, but even without that using replace-by-fee to bump fees works fine
1408 2014-06-21 21:59:42 <chichov> it's still noteworthy for the spec I'm writing to point out that transaction replacement once existed and the restrictions that lie upon nSequence and nLockTime
1409 2014-06-21 22:00:03 <sipa> as a historical fact it may be interesting to mention
1410 2014-06-21 22:00:17 <petertodd> chichov: well, having nSequence as something signed on a per-input-basis turns out to be *really* useful, and indeed, the *only* such data
1411 2014-06-21 22:00:31 <petertodd> chichov: (well, unless you want to play games with ECC math...)
1412 2014-06-21 22:00:46 <sipa> but there's no reason to assume that even if some form of replacement is ever added again, it will be similar to what satoshi originally implemented
1413 2014-06-21 22:01:21 <chichov> alright, I'll point that out and the value restrictions upon these fields
1414 2014-06-21 22:01:33 <sipa> i think the rule was that the lowest nSequence of the new transactions had to be strictly larger than the lowest nSequence of the old one
1415 2014-06-21 22:01:35 <petertodd> chichov: wait, what restrictions do you think exist?
1416 2014-06-21 22:01:57 <chichov> petertodd: either all inputs have to be final or the lock time set to 0
1417 2014-06-21 22:02:12 <sipa> eh no
1418 2014-06-21 22:02:17 <petertodd> chichov: that's incorrect, nLockTime is supported
1419 2014-06-21 22:02:24 <chichov> oh?
1420 2014-06-21 22:02:31 <sipa> the lock time being a block height in the past or a timestamp in the past is also good
1421 2014-06-21 22:03:04 <chichov> oh, so I've stumbled upon a mistake here
1422 2014-06-21 22:03:10 <petertodd> chichov: ?
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1426 2014-06-21 22:03:25 <chichov> nSequence is used for replacement and nLockTime for locking in the future?
1427 2014-06-21 22:04:10 <sipa> finalness is a consensus rule, and there are various ways through which a transaction can be final (all nSequences 0xffffffff, no locktime, or a locktime in the past)
1428 2014-06-21 22:04:15 <sipa> replacement is a policy
1429 2014-06-21 22:04:24 <petertodd> chichov: well, nSequence is just a number, and nLockTime makes a tx invalid until the IsFinalTx() function returns true
1430 2014-06-21 22:04:34 jctb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1431 2014-06-21 22:04:45 <chichov> sipa: I assumed from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L566 that either nLockTime has to be 0 or lie in the past, or all the transaction inputs final
1432 2014-06-21 22:04:49 <sipa> sequence numbers strangely enough influence both finalness, and the historical replcament policy
1433 2014-06-21 22:04:56 <sipa> chichov: that is correct
1434 2014-06-21 22:04:59 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
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1436 2014-06-21 22:05:09 <sipa> chichov: you didn't mention the "or lie in the past" before
1437 2014-06-21 22:05:14 <chichov> hehe, true
1438 2014-06-21 22:05:29 <chichov> but are transactions kept in the mempool if it lies in the future?
1439 2014-06-21 22:05:37 <petertodd> chichov: no, they're rejected
1440 2014-06-21 22:05:42 <sipa> they used to be
1441 2014-06-21 22:06:02 <chichov> yea, IsStandard should spit back false in that case
1442 2014-06-21 22:06:02 <petertodd> chichov: (currently they're accepted in -testnet, but that's kinda misleading really)
1443 2014-06-21 22:06:14 <chichov> okay, I have everything I know then
1444 2014-06-21 22:06:29 <petertodd> chichov: it probably shouldn't be an IsStandard() rule really - the transaction *is* invalid until that time/block is reached
1445 2014-06-21 22:07:02 <chichov> indeed
1446 2014-06-21 22:07:18 <chichov> alright guys, thanks for your help! Time to get some good nights rest
1447 2014-06-21 22:07:24 <chichov> have a good night!
1448 2014-06-21 22:07:49 chichov has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1449 2014-06-21 22:08:42 <petertodd> sipa: fwiw at the mastercoin hackathon a few weeks ago the winning team came up with a nice nSequence use in conjunction with a trusted third party, and in addition one of the colored coin specs uses it to map colored inputs to outputs
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1468 2014-06-21 22:44:38 <skinnkavaj> I just found developer porn
1469 2014-06-21 22:44:40 <skinnkavaj> http://bitforce5.com/
1470 2014-06-21 22:45:43 Swadq has quit (Quit: Swadq)
1471 2014-06-21 22:47:17 <AndersAA> Does anyone know if the "Developer Q&A" video recording from #Bitcoin2014 in Amsterdam is available somewhere?
1472 2014-06-21 22:49:29 sebicas has quit ()
1473 2014-06-21 22:50:12 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: about BFL miners?
1474 2014-06-21 22:50:46 Blackreign has quit ()
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1478 2014-06-21 22:55:13 <deego> Does the standard client run/use java? I see hsperfdata_foo in /tmp, and am not aware of any java processes.
1479 2014-06-21 22:55:46 <sipa> hell no
1480 2014-06-21 22:56:08 <sipa> oh, the comparison tool does, if you configured it
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