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3 2014-06-23 00:04:40 <dekalo> ok, my fault
4 2014-06-23 00:04:44 <dekalo> :)
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6 2014-06-23 00:06:16 <dekalo> just learned that same privk could results in 2 different WIF keys with 2 different final addresses
7 2014-06-23 00:06:47 <jcorgan> yep
8 2014-06-23 00:07:09 <dekalo> the difference reside in the pubkey format so, that is the one hashed and pt in scriptPubKey
9 2014-06-23 00:07:12 <dekalo> right
10 2014-06-23 00:07:13 <dekalo> ?
11 2014-06-23 00:07:55 <jcorgan> didn't quite understand that
12 2014-06-23 00:08:14 <jcorgan> each privkey can generate either a compressed or uncompressed pubkey
13 2014-06-23 00:08:23 <jcorgan> which each hash to a different address
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15 2014-06-23 00:08:42 <jcorgan> so you indicate in the WIF which one you want generated when you import it
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17 2014-06-23 00:09:07 <dekalo> ok, seems that bitcoinj standard use compressed
18 2014-06-23 00:09:50 <jcorgan> i wish all address generating software did, apparently some did not get the memo two years ago
19 2014-06-23 00:11:41 <dekalo> bitcoinj do it as i see, nice
20 2014-06-23 00:13:50 <sipa> from bitcoin's perspective, a public key is identified by its serialization
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24 2014-06-23 00:14:21 <sipa> that means that to retain the 1:1 correspondence between private keys and public keys, private keys must "know" whether their corresponding public key is to be compressed or not
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36 2014-06-23 00:35:48 <dekalo> thank you sipa for explaination
37 2014-06-23 00:36:04 <dekalo> i'm still a bit confused
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39 2014-06-23 00:38:20 <ahmed_> does anyone here know how i can set the coinbase tags in eloipool?
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42 2014-06-23 00:42:29 <sipa> dekalo: try in testnet, and paste your code
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44 2014-06-23 00:44:49 <embicoin> are you planning to upgrade bdb version in bitcoin?
45 2014-06-23 00:45:18 <sipa> no
46 2014-06-23 00:45:20 <embicoin> I know the compatibility thing, just asking
47 2014-06-23 00:45:22 <embicoin> ok
48 2014-06-23 00:48:00 <embicoin> I must reprogram my mind to stop thinking newest versions are better :P
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50 2014-06-23 00:49:50 <sipa> yes, you should
51 2014-06-23 00:49:58 <sipa> we basically use 0 features bdb offers
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54 2014-06-23 00:55:52 <maaku> embicoin: we are planning to get rid of bdb, eventually
55 2014-06-23 00:56:41 <justanotheruser> what db will be used? One from scratch?
56 2014-06-23 00:57:01 <sipa> a simple append-only key-value store
57 2014-06-23 00:57:05 <sipa> no need for a db
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63 2014-06-23 01:03:52 <dekalo> sipa: i've done some test in testnet and it works, from privkey generated with ECKey package 87807d633e347fe1b9fce7b25fc79af9a90b93df40d6ad11304bbea05e880756 it generates WIF: 92cbNrtQVeYLwDobhM9eXZNMzynsXgyMYiwuPwJzEnupocabtUb(uncompr), cS86jVBthShLzKWg95wAdssHgufU2TRjh29LGEiPdse9zczgyvbQ(compr). The address obtained from privkey with toAddress() is mk5wtFGNgAdo1NgR5TBNHzsT284Crm1B2a, the same showed from bitcoind after i've used im
64 2014-06-23 01:03:52 <dekalo> portprivkey with compr-key as input
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66 2014-06-23 01:04:13 <lechuga_> everything will just use leveldb?
67 2014-06-23 01:04:22 <sipa> lechuga_: no, wallet will not
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70 2014-06-23 01:04:34 <sipa> leveldb is overkill for the wallet file
71 2014-06-23 01:06:08 <dekalo> i want to be sure to obtain the same pubkeys when I generate a key with ECKey and i call getPubKey and when i get it from validateaddress in bitcoind. I'm doing some thing with p2sh, so I need to do this :)
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171 2014-06-23 03:05:31 <rebroad> Hi.. quick question.. I'm trying to CAddrMan::Add, and I currently have a variable "addr" which is a CService. How do I pass this to Add please?
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314 2014-06-23 06:35:42 <Krellan> Nice
315 2014-06-23 06:36:02 <Krellan> 0.9.2 had a bad bug on my Mac with the fonts
316 2014-06-23 06:36:07 <Krellan> 0.9.2.1 has fixed it
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319 2014-06-23 06:36:16 <Krellan> Thanks
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339 2014-06-23 06:49:23 <wumpus> Krellan: yes, seemingly no one with MacOSX 10.9 tested the RC, so the font issue only came to light in the release
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352 2014-06-23 07:05:16 <Krellan> wumpus: Yikes, good to know. Will have to pay more attention to the RC's when they come out.
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517 2014-06-23 10:08:24 <jtimon> in rpcmining.cpp in function getblocktemplate pblock->nBits is used for "bits" and "target" returned fields, but it is only set to anything different than 0 in the testnet case (inside UpdateTime)
518 2014-06-23 10:08:40 MaxSan has joined
519 2014-06-23 10:08:48 <jtimon> does it really need to be set in that case or a 0 will do it like in the other cases?
520 2014-06-23 10:08:49 [EddyF]_ has joined
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522 2014-06-23 10:09:36 <sipa> yes, as updating the time may change the difficulty for testnet
523 2014-06-23 10:09:45 <sipa> because of the 20-minute rule
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525 2014-06-23 10:10:07 <jtimon> pblock->nNonce is also set to 0 but not used (it was 0 from the constructor)
526 2014-06-23 10:11:16 <jtimon> sipa: but unless I'm missing something getblocktemplate will always return nBits = 0 for the mainnet and regtest cases, why would a 0 be wrong in testnet?
527 2014-06-23 10:11:26 B51Num1 has joined
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529 2014-06-23 10:13:02 <sipa> that would be a serious bug
530 2014-06-23 10:13:23 MaxSan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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532 2014-06-23 10:14:00 <sipa> it works fine here on my head-as-of-a-few-weeks-ago instance
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534 2014-06-23 10:15:49 <jtimon> I'm circling on "pblock->nBits" and "pblocktemplate" after PR #4100 and nBits doesn't seem to be set to GetNextWorkRequired(pindexPrev, pblock) anywhere (besides, as said, UpdateTime in testnet case)
535 2014-06-23 10:16:26 coingenuity has joined
536 2014-06-23 10:16:36 <jtimon> well, I'm at yesterday's head
537 2014-06-23 10:17:00 <jtimon> origin/master master 6b40eabb Merge pull request #4381
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541 2014-06-23 10:18:56 <sipa> maybe a recently introduced bug
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548 2014-06-23 10:24:01 <jtimon> I'll review the history of the file
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552 2014-06-23 10:25:43 <sipa> 4100 changed quite some things, it may be the offender
553 2014-06-23 10:26:52 <michagogo> Gah, I need to remember to rebase my PR when I'm at my computer
554 2014-06-23 10:27:26 <michagogo> To do that I just use `git rebase upstream/master`, right?
555 2014-06-23 10:27:43 Aquent_ has joined
556 2014-06-23 10:27:54 <michagogo> (with the PR branch checked out)
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559 2014-06-23 10:30:44 <jtimon> sipa, that's what I thought, but it seems previous to merging #3824
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564 2014-06-23 10:34:58 <jtimon> seems quite old, in 450cbb09 Ultraprune rpcmining.cpp didn't contained any set on pblock->nBits/pblocktemplate->nBits
565 2014-06-23 10:35:21 <sipa> are you actually calling the getblocktemplate RPC and looking at the result?
566 2014-06-23 10:35:40 <jtimon> are we 100% sure that the nBits must be set on rpcmining.cpp?
567 2014-06-23 10:35:49 <jtimon> sipa, no, just looking at the code
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569 2014-06-23 10:36:32 <sipa> i don't see nBits being set in rpcminining
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573 2014-06-23 10:40:21 <sipa> jtimon: i don't really have an idea of what code you're looking at
574 2014-06-23 10:40:27 <sipa> the internal miner, or rpc?
575 2014-06-23 10:40:40 <sipa> are you wondering about the code path that sets nBits in the block being constructed>
576 2014-06-23 10:40:46 <jtimon> so maybe it's not necessary at all to do it there, neither in the testnet case
577 2014-06-23 10:40:56 <sipa> in where?
578 2014-06-23 10:41:07 <jtimon> yep, I'm wondering about htat code path
579 2014-06-23 10:41:10 <michagogo> Hm, I wonder what's identifying itself as /Snoopy:0.1/
580 2014-06-23 10:41:11 <jtimon> in rpcmining.cpp
581 2014-06-23 10:41:11 <sipa> which?
582 2014-06-23 10:41:15 <sipa> ok
583 2014-06-23 10:41:19 <sipa> in getblocktemplate?
584 2014-06-23 10:41:31 <jtimon> yep
585 2014-06-23 10:41:34 <michagogo> Looks like address is 192.33.90.253
586 2014-06-23 10:41:50 <jtimon> I can't find any set to nBits besides UpdateTime
587 2014-06-23 10:42:11 <upb> descr: ETHZ, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich
588 2014-06-23 10:42:11 <upb> descr: Zurich, Switzerland
589 2014-06-23 10:42:14 <upb> heh
590 2014-06-23 10:42:41 <michagogo> upb: interesting
591 2014-06-23 10:43:00 <michagogo> I have 3 peers with the subver "/ETHZBitshark:0.9.1/",
592 2014-06-23 10:43:10 <GAit> I think I know one of the guys that heads that group
593 2014-06-23 10:44:19 <sipa> jtimon: CreateNewBlock calls UpdateTime
594 2014-06-23 10:44:34 <michagogo> I don't see snoopy in getpeerinfo, just in version messages in the log
595 2014-06-23 10:45:49 xenog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
596 2014-06-23 10:45:56 <michagogo> Hm, why does getaddr.bitnodes.io claim to have 290000 blocks?
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598 2014-06-23 10:46:23 <sipa> jtimon: and calls GetNextWorkRequired directly too
599 2014-06-23 10:46:29 <GAit> actually, i am not sure anymore - maybe some other institute
600 2014-06-23 10:47:54 banghouse has joined
601 2014-06-23 10:48:35 <michagogo> Whoa
602 2014-06-23 10:48:39 <michagogo> Massive flood of ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : inputs already spent
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604 2014-06-23 10:51:58 <jtimon> sipa oh, sorry, yeah, getblocktemplate calls CreateNewBlock
605 2014-06-23 10:51:58 <jtimon> Then I don't see the purpose of the additional call to UpdateTime ant to set nNonce to zero...
606 2014-06-23 10:52:22 <jtimon> maybe I can just delete that
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608 2014-06-23 10:54:32 <hearn> good morning
609 2014-06-23 10:54:51 <sipa> jtimon: ah, now i see what you mean; yes, that looks safe
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612 2014-06-23 10:58:08 <jtimon> cool, thanks
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616 2014-06-23 11:02:49 <hearn> sipa: would still be interested in your thoughts on the spv floating fee estimator algorithm i posted about, if you have time
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620 2014-06-23 11:08:26 <sipa> hearn: haven't read through the entire idea yet, but an attacker can just give you "return true" utxo's, which will always validate
621 2014-06-23 11:08:41 <sipa> hearn: not a comment on the whole proposal, but the claim "thus authenticating it" isn't valid
622 2014-06-23 11:08:48 <hearn> the script is covered in the signature hash
623 2014-06-23 11:08:54 <hearn> as in, the correct script
624 2014-06-23 11:09:09 <hearn> i thought i mentioned this in the proposal. maybe finish reading it first?
625 2014-06-23 11:10:52 <sipa> if the output being spent has no checksig, there is no signature, though as long as we rely on no such transaction being standard relayable, that is not a problem
626 2014-06-23 11:11:58 <hearn> any such outputs are stealable anyway, unless we assume complicated new additions to script
627 2014-06-23 11:12:04 <hearn> so that is an edge case that doesn't worry me much
628 2014-06-23 11:12:06 <sipa> agree, let's ignore that problem
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630 2014-06-23 11:12:31 <Luke-Jr> wow, this describes a common thing http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem
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633 2014-06-23 11:18:36 <hearn> sipa: so do you agree that it actually is retroactively authenticated, for transactions that require a signature?
634 2014-06-23 11:18:48 <hearn> for *outputs* that require a signature
635 2014-06-23 11:19:01 <gdm85> morning everybody
636 2014-06-23 11:19:02 <sipa> hearn: the script, yes
637 2014-06-23 11:19:09 <sipa> hearn: but it's the amount you're interested in
638 2014-06-23 11:19:24 <hearn> indeed, which is why I said it also needs the value to be covered by the signature hash as well.
639 2014-06-23 11:19:24 <sipa> and yes, you know the that the spending transaction is valid, and used the right input amounts
640 2014-06-23 11:19:28 <gdm85> nice to see discussion on mailing list about wallet separation
641 2014-06-23 11:19:29 <sipa> because of that
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643 2014-06-23 11:19:47 <hearn> however, once that task is done, getutxo doesn't need any changes as the value is already included.
644 2014-06-23 11:19:57 <sipa> right
645 2014-06-23 11:19:58 <gdm85> wumpus: online?
646 2014-06-23 11:21:31 <wumpus> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4198/files would make nLastBlockProcess update only when receiving a block; in principle it makes sense I think?
647 2014-06-23 11:21:33 <sipa> hearn: so, what you really need is authenticated information about transactions' spent coins values?
648 2014-06-23 11:21:47 <sipa> wumpus: i tried that first, and it disconnects everyone :)
649 2014-06-23 11:22:12 <wumpus> ok...
650 2014-06-23 11:22:23 <sipa> wumpus: though the current solution is certainly suboptimal
651 2014-06-23 11:22:34 <hearn> sipa: no. for my current app what i need is getutxo. but later if/when we implement more decentralised floating fee logic, the same command will be useful then too.
652 2014-06-23 11:22:44 <sipa> hearn: right, i'm talking about this use case
653 2014-06-23 11:22:49 <sipa> not about lighthouse
654 2014-06-23 11:22:51 <hearn> right
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656 2014-06-23 11:23:08 <hearn> yes, what we actually need to know is the fee that was paid for arbitrary spent transactions
657 2014-06-23 11:23:35 <sipa> i did hear another idea about fee logic for SPV
658 2014-06-23 11:23:39 <wumpus> I suppose it shouldn't disconnect all nodes it is not receiving blocks from, probably only if it is the node it has requested blocks from
659 2014-06-23 11:23:40 <hearn> a simpler/more direct method would be for tx3 transactions to redundantly specify their fee size in the serialized format
660 2014-06-23 11:23:54 <sipa> wumpus: right, i was exaggerating
661 2014-06-23 11:23:55 <hearn> however that bloats up the block chain and introduces potential for divergence. it may still be a better solution though
662 2014-06-23 11:24:16 <sipa> wumpus: the problem is that block processing can take a really long time if orphans are being reconnected
663 2014-06-23 11:24:21 <sipa> wumpus: which can trigger the timeout
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666 2014-06-23 11:24:32 <hearn> but given we want to put value under the sighash anyway, for TREZOR which also wants to know the fee, it seems best to just reuse that
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668 2014-06-23 11:24:45 <wumpus> sipa: ah
669 2014-06-23 11:25:04 <sipa> hearn: so, no objection at all to including the value in the sighash; adding it to transactions... less sure
670 2014-06-23 11:25:20 <hearn> right. if we change the sighash rule there is no need to change tx serialization format.
671 2014-06-23 11:25:35 <hearn> which i'd prefer, because all existing software that parses txns but doesn't sign them (i guess this is a lot of small tools and libraries) can work as-is
672 2014-06-23 11:25:44 <sipa> exactly
673 2014-06-23 11:25:50 <sipa> it's just a script update
674 2014-06-23 11:25:58 <sipa> which SPV nodes already don't care about
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676 2014-06-23 11:26:22 <hearn> right, mostly. though note that bitcoinj can run scripts and in fact lighthouse does run them
677 2014-06-23 11:26:35 <hearn> (it runs the scripts fetched from getutxo)
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682 2014-06-23 11:27:45 <sipa> however, what about this idea: when creating a block, a miner writes its minimum fee-per-byte used in a block (plus maybe some other constants relating to priority) to the coinbase, and blocks are invalid if they include a transaction with lower fee/byte
683 2014-06-23 11:27:59 <petertodd> sipa: why?
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685 2014-06-23 11:28:33 <sipa> petertodd: as that can be observed by SPV nodes, which then learn what fee policy is being used
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687 2014-06-23 11:28:58 <sipa> (not saying the idea is perfect, btw)
688 2014-06-23 11:28:59 <petertodd> sipa: thing is the invalid part is unenforcable - you have no idea if the tx was actually broadcast
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691 2014-06-23 11:29:19 <sipa> true, but how does that change anything?
692 2014-06-23 11:29:24 <hearn> we could do both
693 2014-06-23 11:29:36 <hearn> the idea behind the pending fee estimator pull is to observe actual behaviour of the network rather than stated behaviour
694 2014-06-23 11:29:40 <petertodd> sipa: better to let miners advertise a higher fee/byte to let people know the actual cost, e.g. if they're getting a lot of people paying for tx mining out of bound
695 2014-06-23 11:29:46 <hearn> however, the problem is, you have to wait for a while to learn what the behaviour is
696 2014-06-23 11:29:47 <petertodd> sipa: also, your idea doesn't work with child-pays-for-parent
697 2014-06-23 11:29:49 <sipa> a miner can add high-fee transactions himself to the block, but that doesn't change the fee he can claim
698 2014-06-23 11:29:57 <sipa> petertodd: indeed, it fails child-pays-for-parent
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702 2014-06-23 11:30:41 <petertodd> sipa: basically if I'm to accept any out-of-band payments, I'll probably have to set my advertised fee to zero or near zero
703 2014-06-23 11:30:41 <sipa> also, i really dislike encoding fee policies into a consensus rule
704 2014-06-23 11:30:57 <sipa> petertodd: good point
705 2014-06-23 11:31:35 <hearn> well, the policy wouldn't be a consensus rule right, just a "Truth in advertising" rule
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707 2014-06-23 11:32:04 <sipa> hearn: what i suggested would be a consensus rule, a block must be invalid if its state minfee is wrong
708 2014-06-23 11:32:17 <petertodd> one way to think about this, is if you take the view that the relay network is meant to be operating on behalf of miners, then the relay network wants to know what fees are being accepted by miners, so if miners are encoding in their blocks that only tx's having a fee > x BTC/KB are accepted, it's not unreasonable to say maybe the relay network shouldn't bother relaying tx's with a fee less than that
709 2014-06-23 11:32:18 <sipa> anyway, just food for thought, not actually proposing this
710 2014-06-23 11:32:20 <hearn> yes, exactly. the policy can be anything. but your summary of your policy must be correct
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712 2014-06-23 11:34:04 <sipa> hearn: so i think that once we have transactions committing to input values, i guess it makes sense to make the input values data available through some means
713 2014-06-23 11:34:17 <hearn> you can't define "miners" so easily. if one block in 100 says it accept any transaction without any fee, then the network should arguably try and get transactions to that miner, up to its capacity, which brings us back to capacity-based prioritisation instead of the current anti-DoS system.
714 2014-06-23 11:34:23 <petertodd> sipa: note how per-block txo indexes do that, solving both problems
715 2014-06-23 11:34:40 <sipa> hearn: though i dislike that it basically requires full script validation to authenticate
716 2014-06-23 11:35:19 <hearn> sipa: well, realistically it seems script is people's favourite part of bitcoin to reimplement .... it's also quite libraryfiable.
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718 2014-06-23 11:35:35 <hearn> so sure, that requirement is not ideal but it seems the most obvious next move
719 2014-06-23 11:35:36 <sipa> and probably the most tricky part to get right
720 2014-06-23 11:35:57 <petertodd> sipa: it's not tricky to get it
721 2014-06-23 11:36:09 <petertodd> sipa: to get it "right enough" for validating common-usage scriptSigs
722 2014-06-23 11:36:19 <sipa> right, and that may suffice here
723 2014-06-23 11:36:22 <petertodd> sipa: a false failure isn't a big deal in that application
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725 2014-06-23 11:37:55 <hearn> the thing i like about this way of estimating fees is that it's of somewhat implementable size. getutxo is a simple message, already written. putting value in the sighash is not a hard piece of code either, the hard part is doing the fork and waiting for people to upgrade and start making the new transactions. then implementing the algorithm i proposed is a volunteer sized piece of work
726 2014-06-23 11:38:10 <hearn> additionally things can be done in paralle
727 2014-06-23 11:38:26 <hearn> *parallel. always a benefit for spread out groups of people.
728 2014-06-23 11:38:32 <sipa> an alternative would be to just relay txin values along with transactions
729 2014-06-23 11:38:44 <sipa> without needing several roundtrips for that information
730 2014-06-23 11:39:10 <sipa> (with the race condition that they may already be confirmed by the time you get to ask for it, pruning the data)
731 2014-06-23 11:39:27 <sipa> sorry, 1 roundtrip
732 2014-06-23 11:39:32 <hearn> you'd need the full CTxOut because you can't run the scripts without the full data. but yes the getutxo answer format can be glued to the end of a mempool-relayed tx given a version bump
733 2014-06-23 11:39:57 <hearn> however not all clients would want it
734 2014-06-23 11:40:04 <hearn> e.g. for full nodes it's just a waste of bandwidth
735 2014-06-23 11:40:13 <sipa> agree
736 2014-06-23 11:41:31 <petertodd> sipa: so that's with a new CHECKSIG mode to hash the CTxOut? sounds useful to me, especially with a flag to let the COutPoint not be hashed if desired
737 2014-06-23 11:41:54 <petertodd> sipa: oh, right, SignatureHash() already does that...
738 2014-06-23 11:41:55 <hearn> petertodd: we are discussing the algorithm i proposed on the getutxo thread for fee estimation
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740 2014-06-23 11:42:15 <petertodd> hearn: I know
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917 2014-06-23 14:20:20 <gavinandresen> petertodd: I'm still trying to understand how you think somebody can Sybil attack the fee estimation code on the main bitcoin network.
918 2014-06-23 14:20:59 <gavinandresen> petertodd: ⦠So I control somebody's connections when their fee estimates happen to be zero (they've just started up maybe? what's the scenario there?)
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921 2014-06-23 14:21:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: and then you only forward very high fee transactions to them, so they get a filtered view
922 2014-06-23 14:21:36 <petertodd> gavinandresen: ^
923 2014-06-23 14:22:16 <gavinandresen> I see, you control what goes into their memory pool.
924 2014-06-23 14:22:21 <petertodd> yup
925 2014-06-23 14:22:42 <gavinandresen> petertodd: you need to get better at communicating, I did not get that at all from your github comment.
926 2014-06-23 14:22:45 <petertodd> and anyway, that I could trick it into sending a 1BTC fee simply has to be fixed - there must be some sane max limit
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928 2014-06-23 14:23:20 <gavinandresen> I'll set the flag that does the fee sanity check for the wallet code
929 2014-06-23 14:23:40 <hearn> hello
930 2014-06-23 14:23:44 <petertodd> gavinandresen: sorry, just seemed obvious to me
931 2014-06-23 14:23:45 <gavinandresen> howdy mike
932 2014-06-23 14:24:03 <gavinandresen> petertodd: everything is obvious when it comes out of your own head....
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934 2014-06-23 14:24:12 <petertodd> gavinandresen: we probably want a lower sanity check limit - 0.1BTC fees are still a lot of money.
935 2014-06-23 14:24:15 <petertodd> gavinandresen: indeed
936 2014-06-23 14:24:31 <gavinandresen> petertodd: lower sanity limit: fine, separate pull request
937 2014-06-23 14:25:46 <petertodd> gavinandresen: well, I'd call this a merge-blocker myself - you can lose a lot of money very quickly with that bug, even just with a fluke estimate
938 2014-06-23 14:26:10 <petertodd> gavinandresen: but anyway, with sane limits I'm ACK on that patch
939 2014-06-23 14:26:12 <gavinandresen> petertodd: no, you really can't.
940 2014-06-23 14:27:09 <petertodd> gavinandresen: sure you can - get a bad estimate that's a bit under the 0.1BTC sanity limit and you'll be spending about $50 per transaction sent
941 2014-06-23 14:27:45 <gavinandresen> petertodd: okey dokey. Good luck with that Sybil at EXACTLY the time when you delete your fee estimates..........
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945 2014-06-23 14:28:31 <sipa> is there some protection to not give any estimations before there's a sizable observed population?
946 2014-06-23 14:28:33 <petertodd> gavinandresen: indeed, good "luck" - lowish probability, but *far* from zero.
947 2014-06-23 14:28:36 <petertodd> sipa: none
948 2014-06-23 14:28:40 <sipa> sorry, i didn't get to lock at tje code yet
949 2014-06-23 14:29:02 <hearn> the estimate is just iirc the default
950 2014-06-23 14:29:12 <gavinandresen> sipa: there used to be, I think that code got lost in some reworking somewhere. I don't think that will make Peter happy, though, because "infinite Sybil!!!!"
951 2014-06-23 14:29:15 <petertodd> sipa: basically I demonstrated a 1BTC fee based on a single transaction confirming into a block, samplesize = 1
952 2014-06-23 14:29:56 <hearn> huh, when i reviewed it there was indeed a codepath to give some hard-coded reasonable default until enough time had passed to observe the network
953 2014-06-23 14:30:18 <gavinandresen> if it makes y'all happy, let me know how many samples would make you happy and I'd be happy to change the == 0 to < N
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955 2014-06-23 14:30:39 <gavinandresen> Frankly, I'm tired of the nit-picking "must be perfect" attitude here.
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957 2014-06-23 14:30:58 <petertodd> gavinandresen: it's not a matter of samples, just put a sane upper limit on it that's configurable. that's sufficient to give users the tools they need to protect themselves.
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959 2014-06-23 14:31:13 <gavinandresen> yippee, another configuration option....
960 2014-06-23 14:31:25 * hearn shrugs
961 2014-06-23 14:31:27 <sipa> we already have a "sane max fee" limit somewhere afaik
962 2014-06-23 14:31:30 <hearn> it can be hard-coded as well
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966 2014-06-23 14:31:49 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, it's hardcoded to make 0.1BTC fee per tx - it's not even a per-byte limit
967 2014-06-23 14:31:50 <hearn> i see simple safeties like that more as a protection against accidental bugs rather than unlikely attacks
968 2014-06-23 14:31:56 Guest36669 is now known as WKNiGHT-
969 2014-06-23 14:31:59 <sipa> hearn: agree
970 2014-06-23 14:32:09 napedia has joined
971 2014-06-23 14:32:10 <sipa> though it's nice to have as assurance against attacks as well
972 2014-06-23 14:32:17 <gavinandresen> Ok. I will change the code to require at least 11 samples.
973 2014-06-23 14:32:47 samesong has joined
974 2014-06-23 14:32:59 <gavinandresen> I think minimum sane fee is already configurable, I'll leave that alone.
975 2014-06-23 14:33:39 <hearn> cool
976 2014-06-23 14:34:15 akstunt600 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
977 2014-06-23 14:34:29 jgarzik has joined
978 2014-06-23 14:34:39 <hearn> so who gets to be the lucky, lucky guy who starts the "getfees" SPV message fight? is that me, gavin or wumpus? :)
979 2014-06-23 14:35:10 * sipa suggests: asking it from the same source you get exchange rates from, until we have an authenticated mechanism for it
980 2014-06-23 14:36:20 <gavinandresen> rebasing against master this morning, I'm getting:
981 2014-06-23 14:36:21 <gavinandresen> configure.ac:699: warning: 'INCLUDES' is the old name for 'AM_CPPFLAGS' (or '*_CPPFLAGS')
982 2014-06-23 14:36:22 <gavinandresen> configure.ac:114: error: required file 'src/config/bitcoin-config.h.in' not found
983 2014-06-23 14:36:33 <sipa> gavinandresen: rerun autogen
984 2014-06-23 14:36:44 <gavinandresen> sipa: thanks
985 2014-06-23 14:36:56 <petertodd> sipa: +1
986 2014-06-23 14:37:17 <sipa> if you're going to rely on untrusted data, better go with the devil you know
987 2014-06-23 14:37:51 <hearn> bitcoin community in 2012: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1641
988 2014-06-23 14:38:04 <hearn> bitcoin community now: find some random guy and trust him!
989 2014-06-23 14:38:08 <gavinandresen> sipa: what about Mike's argument that peers already give you lots of unauthenticated data, and we manage to deal with that OK?
990 2014-06-23 14:38:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: doesn't mean it's a practice we should encourage or extend
991 2014-06-23 14:38:44 <hearn> i miss the days when we could go from "spv wallets need this" to a merged pull req in the span of about 20 days and 9 comments :)
992 2014-06-23 14:38:53 <gavinandresen> "perfect enemy of the better" and all that
993 2014-06-23 14:39:02 <wumpus> hearn: me too, maybe we should fork bitcoin core :P
994 2014-06-23 14:39:11 <hearn> you mean and gavin together, right? :) hehe
995 2014-06-23 14:39:12 <petertodd> sipa: yup. anyway, the important thing is to make sure interactive users a) notice what fees they're sending if they're unexpectedly large, and b) automated users can set limits so they can't find themselves spending significantly more than expected without a human getting involved
996 2014-06-23 14:39:15 <gavinandresen> Why not encourage/extend if it makes the Bitcoin network more valuable?
997 2014-06-23 14:39:44 <hearn> sipa: so realistically, the source we use for exchange rates (by which i mean my clients use - bitcoinj has no centralised server dependencies at all), has in the past returned garbage several times.
998 2014-06-23 14:39:48 <hearn> i also don't trust it to not get hacked
999 2014-06-23 14:39:54 <jgarzik> "don't keep going in the wrong direction"
1000 2014-06-23 14:40:02 <jgarzik> one wrong doesn't make another wrong right.
1001 2014-06-23 14:40:03 <petertodd> wumpus: I'll call my fork Genuine Bitcoin
1002 2014-06-23 14:40:07 <hearn> "trust some guy you never met" is certainly a temptingly simple security model, but it'd require safety and sanity checks no matter what
1003 2014-06-23 14:40:27 <hearn> jgarzik: well you added the mempool command! and you know what, i've never had reports of problems with it
1004 2014-06-23 14:41:03 <hearn> in contrast to bitcoinaverage.com which actually crashed all android wallets after it started returning exchange rates of zero :)
1005 2014-06-23 14:41:17 <hearn> luckily exchange rates tend to get sanity checked by humans when they need them
1006 2014-06-23 14:41:51 <sipa> and so should fees
1007 2014-06-23 14:41:53 <hearn> we can certainly do averaging and sanity checking of what comes back from the p2p network, until the day we implement my proposed lower trust method
1008 2014-06-23 14:42:00 <wumpus> petertodd: hah, BitcoinGenuineAdvantage
1009 2014-06-23 14:42:11 <hearn> sipa: yes and i fully expect them to .... all spv wallets do display fees to the user iirc
1010 2014-06-23 14:42:24 <petertodd> wumpus: no! It's Genuine Bitcoin that has the Genuine Bitcoin Advantage!
1011 2014-06-23 14:42:34 <sipa> the mempool command just gives you data you could have had before by connecting earlier and seeing inv messages; the contents of the mempool has no consensus, and doesn't pretend to be (though it seems mike would like it to be)
1012 2014-06-23 14:42:37 <hearn> so in practice i'm not too worried about attacks on this. yes, it can happen, and we ideally will defend against it, and we have a plan.
1013 2014-06-23 14:43:11 <sipa> utxo worries me more, as it's about the most critical information in the system
1014 2014-06-23 14:43:35 <t7> hearn: haha i didnt hear about that
1015 2014-06-23 14:43:59 <sipa> fees... i don't really care, they're also just mempool data, but i still think if it's unverifiable, it's better fetched from a place that has a reputation to suffer rather than random peers
1016 2014-06-23 14:44:00 <hearn> sipa: for a full node yes. not for every app.
1017 2014-06-23 14:44:12 <hearn> well
1018 2014-06-23 14:44:14 <petertodd> sipa: +1 - note how getutxo would be more useful if it returned the entire transaction so you could get some proof the TXO actually existed. (e.g. for checking fees paid by a tx)
1019 2014-06-23 14:44:14 <hearn> look at it like this
1020 2014-06-23 14:44:20 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1021 2014-06-23 14:44:37 <sipa> i basically worry that someone will implement a wallet based on getutxos, by fetching from random peers
1022 2014-06-23 14:44:38 <hearn> the p2p network itself has a reputation, which indeed if lots of nodes return garbage or users keep reporting sybil attacks, the "reputation" of the p2p network as a useful decentralised place to get unauthenticated data will suffer.
1023 2014-06-23 14:44:39 <wumpus> petertodd: I don't think we have the entire transaction
1024 2014-06-23 14:44:53 <hearn> then i will have to find another source with a better reputation like bitcoinaverage, my own servers, electrum etc.
1025 2014-06-23 14:44:59 <jgarzik> hearn, poor example
1026 2014-06-23 14:45:07 <petertodd> wumpus: I thought we do? getrawtransaction returns the tx so long as at least one output is unspent (although I'd hate to make that a requirement)
1027 2014-06-23 14:45:09 <hearn> the argument i keep making, which doesn't seem to sink in, is that in fact the p2p network's reputation so far has been OK. good enough, for sure.
1028 2014-06-23 14:45:17 <jgarzik> hearn, "mempool" is for diagnostics and network sampling, not finance
1029 2014-06-23 14:45:22 <sipa> petertodd: and it's awfully inefficient
1030 2014-06-23 14:45:31 <jgarzik> hearn, if you are using that for "trust", you are doing something really wrong
1031 2014-06-23 14:45:34 ionstorm has joined
1032 2014-06-23 14:45:41 <sipa> petertodd: we just know the height, read the entire block from disk, and scan through its transactions
1033 2014-06-23 14:45:44 <hearn> jgarzik: the only actual user of it today, that i know of, is SPV wallets, which use it to find transactions broadcast before they started up
1034 2014-06-23 14:46:13 <sipa> hearn: right, and i don't want to encourage relying on something that we don't know how it will evolve in the future
1035 2014-06-23 14:46:28 <sipa> bitcoin as an experiment is just so much more interesting the less assumptions it has to make
1036 2014-06-23 14:46:39 <petertodd> sipa: yup, though actually, given that getutxo now returns height/blockhash, you can do that with a getblock
1037 2014-06-23 14:46:42 <hearn> yes, ideally bitcoin would have no value etc etc.
1038 2014-06-23 14:47:35 <hearn> now back in the real world, unfortunate though it may be, people are actually using this experiment even though we keep telling them not to :) so we do have to work with that reality.
1039 2014-06-23 14:48:07 <hearn> or at least me and gavinandresen and wumpus do because our incomes rely on bitcoin working. now get back to writing cluster control scripts sipa :)
1040 2014-06-23 14:48:20 * hearn remembers being an SRE fondly
1041 2014-06-23 14:48:28 * sipa drains hearn
1042 2014-06-23 14:48:53 <hearn> you youngsters. i remember when i had to file a ticket and wait for a grumpy human every time i wanted to drain a cluster ....
1043 2014-06-23 14:48:58 <hearn> anyway
1044 2014-06-23 14:49:12 * AndersAA is getting some good stuff on how decision-making happens in the Bitcoin-project for his masters thesis
1045 2014-06-23 14:49:49 <hearn> sipa: there is no way to implement a wallet based on getutxos. for that we'd need an address/key indexed UTXO set
1046 2014-06-23 14:49:51 <hearn> sipa: which we don't have.
1047 2014-06-23 14:50:06 <jgarzik> AndersAA, In open source projects, all the dirty laundry is out in public for everyone to view. To some that appears chaotic, but it's just a different chaos than other software engineering models. ;p
1048 2014-06-23 14:50:09 <hearn> sipa: i mean, there is a way, it's called making a web wallet and lots of people have done that. but there's no way to do it with the p2p network even after my patch
1049 2014-06-23 14:50:45 <sipa> good point
1050 2014-06-23 14:50:46 <hearn> jgarzik: well, in the corporate model eventually a manager steps in and bangs heads together :) or linus ...
1051 2014-06-23 14:51:01 <hearn> jgarzik: or the company goes bankrupt :)
1052 2014-06-23 14:51:19 <AndersAA> jgarzik: In my experience people tend to yell louder at each other behind closed doors :)
1053 2014-06-23 14:51:53 <jgarzik> hearn, RE linux not really
1054 2014-06-23 14:51:56 <hearn> sipa: basically i wrote getutxos for two purposes. one is, lighthouse uses it as a UI hint and a performance optimisation. it helps the UI greatly. it does not, ultimately, impact the security, because if the results of getutxo are bogus then the resulting contract tx won't work: it'll be rejected or treated as an orphan and the issue can be detected at that point. secondly, it's a part of my SPV fee estimation plan.
1055 2014-06-23 14:52:21 <sipa> yes, i understand your reasons
1056 2014-06-23 14:52:22 <jgarzik> Linux works like this: Throw spaghetti at a wall, and see if it sticks.
1057 2014-06-23 14:52:29 <hearn> sipa: so in both cases we can tolerate some noise in the results, because the worst case scenario is the app gets stuck a bit and the user then learns either bitcoin or their internet connection is hosed. and in the latter it's just a waste of disk space.
1058 2014-06-23 14:52:50 <jgarzik> getutxos is very easy to use poorly
1059 2014-06-23 14:52:57 <hearn> so is "tx" :)
1060 2014-06-23 14:53:03 <wumpus> I think it's fine to have P2P messages with different security assumptions, as long as well documented
1061 2014-06-23 14:53:32 <jgarzik> And I simply cannot see a responsible funds collector/administrator preferring an untrusted interface over simply running bitcoind+REST
1062 2014-06-23 14:53:37 weilu has joined
1063 2014-06-23 14:53:40 <wumpus> right, as we've seen, bitcoin itself is very easy to use poorly
1064 2014-06-23 14:54:20 <hearn> jgarzik: well, that's sort of like saying a responsible funds collector would not accept unconfirmed transactions as payment, yet your employer does! i am certainly more than happy to make lighthouse use a local bitcoind if one is detected
1065 2014-06-23 14:54:25 <wumpus> in practice I think getutxos will be ignored by everyone except hearn
1066 2014-06-23 14:54:44 <hearn> and in fact i might go implement that this week! but i suspect most people will not want to run Core for the usual reasons. i can, however, advise that it is a useful thing to do, for those who have it
1067 2014-06-23 14:54:49 ielo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1068 2014-06-23 14:54:55 <hearn> wumpus: yes that's more or less what i'm expecting.
1069 2014-06-23 14:55:24 <wumpus> I really doubt people will start pounding out extra-insecure wallets as soon as the message appears
1070 2014-06-23 14:55:56 <Eliel> is there a reason to use uncofirmed transactions as the base for the fee? On first glance, I'd use the transactions from the last block as the base if no prior info.
1071 2014-06-23 14:56:01 <hearn> right, it's not usable for a normal wallet anyway, at least not without an address index. even if an address index was created, if getutxo returned a bogus answer, the resulting tx would merely be invalid and the app would get stuck
1072 2014-06-23 14:56:03 <GAit> i am worried we consider todays incentives the same as tomorrow's incentives and i am not sure i feel i identified what incentives there are in providing correct data here, FWIW
1073 2014-06-23 14:56:15 <hearn> Eliel: you can't calculate fees paid from a block in isolation, nor how long it took to confirm
1074 2014-06-23 14:56:18 <jgarzik> So, new logic: It's ok to add crap, since it will just be used by this one odd duck coder/app.
1075 2014-06-23 14:56:18 <sipa> Eliel: miners can cheat that by putting their own high-fee transactions in
1076 2014-06-23 14:56:24 banghouse has joined
1077 2014-06-23 14:56:57 <hearn> jgarzik: eh, that's a silly argument too - seen that way bloom filtering is only used by me for nearly 2 years already. it's transitively been used by ~2 million people
1078 2014-06-23 14:57:08 <petertodd> sipa: I mentioned elsewhere that taking the min fee measured by both methods probably made a lot of sense
1079 2014-06-23 14:57:09 <wumpus> jgarzik: it seems more like 'deny and inhibit all experimentation until a perfect solution (TM) appears'
1080 2014-06-23 14:57:18 <jgarzik> hearn, the universe of fund administrators is tiny
1081 2014-06-23 14:57:18 <Eliel> sipa: several blocks then? :)
1082 2014-06-23 14:57:28 <sipa> Eliel: equally cheatable
1083 2014-06-23 14:57:53 <jgarzik> hearn, the universe of fund administrators that prefer untrusted interfaces over trusted ones...
1084 2014-06-23 14:58:09 <sipa> Eliel: see it this way: we want to measure the conditions for transactions migrating from the memory pool to the block chain
1085 2014-06-23 14:58:11 altoz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1086 2014-06-23 14:58:24 <hearn> jgarzik: well, fund administrators today accept credit card payments .... and the people funding them accept only promises.
1087 2014-06-23 14:58:29 <jgarzik> wumpus, no. Several trusted alternative ways to do fund administration already exist.
1088 2014-06-23 14:58:30 altoz has joined
1089 2014-06-23 14:58:30 <Eliel> sipa: yes, if you look at blocks, you can see a collection where 100% made it in.
1090 2014-06-23 14:58:32 <wumpus> hearn: I suppose you could try getting it added in one of the other node implementations
1091 2014-06-23 14:58:58 <sipa> Eliel: there are other ways through which transactions can end up in blocks, and that's not what we want to measure (private deals with miners, their own transactions, anything out-of-band)
1092 2014-06-23 14:59:00 <Eliel> thus, you can deduce the minimum fee by looking at which transaction paid the least.
1093 2014-06-23 14:59:21 <jgarzik> wumpus, This could have been done a month ago with existing bitcoin software, no new APIs, trusted.
1094 2014-06-23 14:59:23 <hearn> wumpus: we have to tackle all these arguments sooner or later anyway. otherwise there won't be any decentralised wallets anymore. once your wallet can't function without magicwebsite.com being up and reliable we may as well just give up and all use blockchain.info
1095 2014-06-23 14:59:30 <jgarzik> wumpus, That != shutting down experiments
1096 2014-06-23 14:59:56 <hearn> jgarzik: ah, but the entire point of my product is that it's decentralised. obviously it *can* be done with a trusted third party ,as can all finance. and it sure does simplify things
1097 2014-06-23 15:00:01 <Eliel> sipa: that's true, but I think that'd be good enough to start with. definitely harder to cheat than just using the last n unconfirmed transactions
1098 2014-06-23 15:00:24 <sipa> Eliel: it uses the combination: watch unconfirmed transaction come and and measure how long they take to confirm
1099 2014-06-23 15:00:28 <jgarzik> hearn, Did I say trusted third party? No. Stop imagining words.
1100 2014-06-23 15:00:42 <jgarzik> hearn, google insight and install it. Insight is not a trusted third party, it is a trusted first party.
1101 2014-06-23 15:00:43 <hearn> jgarzik: then i'm not sure what you mean. are you still talking about running Core locally?
1102 2014-06-23 15:01:01 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1103 2014-06-23 15:01:10 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1104 2014-06-23 15:01:29 <hearn> like i said, i'm happy to support that for people who want to run Core. i do not wish to insist upon it, for the same reason that i don't insist people run Core as their wallet for other cases too.
1105 2014-06-23 15:02:14 <wumpus> why would you need insight to do a simple UTXO lookup? every node keeps track of that already
1106 2014-06-23 15:02:27 <jgarzik> wumpus, you don't with a simple REST patch
1107 2014-06-23 15:02:30 <hearn> also Insight is a full blown block explorer. unless you found a way to make them 100x more efficient than the others i know about, setting up Insight for the main network would easily take days or weeks on consumer hardware, assuming it can be set up at all. the biteasy guys told me reindexing their main chain (using some fancy nosql system) takes forever
1108 2014-06-23 15:02:37 <hearn> so how about this
1109 2014-06-23 15:02:40 <wumpus> no need for a big transaction index, or extra software
1110 2014-06-23 15:02:40 <jgarzik> Fine, I will implement the REST patch today.
1111 2014-06-23 15:02:49 <wumpus> isn't there a getutxo RPC call?
1112 2014-06-23 15:02:49 <jgarzik> Then no need for big transaction index, or extra software.
1113 2014-06-23 15:02:51 <hearn> i will use a local bitcoind if found on port 8333
1114 2014-06-23 15:03:07 <wumpus> no need for even a REST patch
1115 2014-06-23 15:03:07 <hearn> if not, it'll use the main network. then users can decide for themselves the overhead/security tradeoffs
1116 2014-06-23 15:03:13 <jgarzik> gettxout
1117 2014-06-23 15:03:14 <jgarzik> yes
1118 2014-06-23 15:03:31 Cl-Martin has joined
1119 2014-06-23 15:03:36 <jgarzik> and gettxout RPC can be batched
1120 2014-06-23 15:03:51 yubrew has joined
1121 2014-06-23 15:03:55 <wumpus> great
1122 2014-06-23 15:04:41 <hearn> anything that requires you to run Core yourself is basically DoA for regular users at this point.
1123 2014-06-23 15:04:47 <hearn> so that implies anything RPC based also is
1124 2014-06-23 15:04:57 <jgarzik> hearn, why?
1125 2014-06-23 15:05:09 <gavinandresen> petertodd sipa: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/commit/853e3fab33b9934c88360cf07e9f67664fc0e025
1126 2014-06-23 15:05:38 <jgarzik> A fund administration wants to collect tens of thousands of dollars (in bitcoin), but cannot run a -nolisten node? Come on.
1127 2014-06-23 15:06:06 <Apocalyptic> heh
1128 2014-06-23 15:06:11 <jgarzik> gettxout RPC works today, is trusted, no need to wait for P2P rollout of an untrusted feature
1129 2014-06-23 15:06:13 <Apocalyptic> sounds like reality
1130 2014-06-23 15:06:24 <hearn> two points. one, you'd be amazed at how much money some people carry around on android wallets. i've seen hundreds of BTC sized wallets! yes, people don't want to wait even if they're collecting lots of money.
1131 2014-06-23 15:06:32 <hearn> two, who says these contracts will all be tens of thousands of dollars?
1132 2014-06-23 15:06:43 <hearn> there's no particular minimum size requirement when using bitcoin for this, it's one of the big advantages
1133 2014-06-23 15:06:47 <petertodd> gavinandresen: how about we make that part a separate pull-req, along with the maxfee setting?
1134 2014-06-23 15:07:01 <hearn> one of the examples i give for how it *could* be used (not saying it would) is friends organising a party or day out
1135 2014-06-23 15:07:20 <hearn> "we need at least 10 people to make this fun, tickets cost $20, please attach your pledges to your reply to this email" kind of thing
1136 2014-06-23 15:07:39 <hearn> anyway, brb
1137 2014-06-23 15:07:57 <petertodd> hearn: anyway, I still see no reason why Lighthouse needs getutxo, but I just ACKed the patch all the same for the other uses of it
1138 2014-06-23 15:08:05 <Luke-Jr> [15:02:26] <hearn> two points. one, you'd be amazed at how much money some people carry around on android wallets. i've seen hundreds of BTC sized wallets! yes, people don't want to wait even if they're collecting lots of money. <-- this sounds like an argument to make it harder to do :P
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1141 2014-06-23 15:11:05 <hearn> hah, well, andreas' wallet already has "don't store lots of money here" in the safety notes that appear when you first run the app
1142 2014-06-23 15:11:28 CoinHeavy has joined
1143 2014-06-23 15:11:36 <hearn> if someone sends a lot of money anyway, not much we can do about that. besides who are we to say it's a bad idea? maybe the phones are kept at home as dedicated hardware wallets, with no apps. it's hard to outsmart all our users all the time
1144 2014-06-23 15:12:09 <Apocalyptic> "maybe the phones are kept at home as dedicated hardware wallets, with no apps." do you really believe that ?
1145 2014-06-23 15:12:26 <hearn> jgarzik: how about this? if the user tries to create an assurance contract of larger than X BTC where X is something i'll think about, i'll display a warning asking them to install a local version of Bitcoin Core and i'll use it when it's available
1146 2014-06-23 15:12:31 <hearn> and e.g. alert the user if it's not running
1147 2014-06-23 15:12:55 <hearn> jgarzik: this should satisfy the use case of someone who really is running a contract of tens of thousands of dollars, whilst not inconveniencing users who have more casual use cases
1148 2014-06-23 15:13:00 <petertodd> hearn: heh, I like that
1149 2014-06-23 15:13:14 <jgarzik> hearn, default to using gettxout RPC, make them take extra effort to use the untrusted crapola
1150 2014-06-23 15:13:16 <hearn> Apocalyptic: well people have told us they actually do ..... so yes. how many of the big wallets correlate with such use cases, i can't say.
1151 2014-06-23 15:13:28 <jgarzik> don't make users work harder, just to get better security
1152 2014-06-23 15:13:34 <jgarzik> you want the opposite
1153 2014-06-23 15:13:35 <hearn> jgarzik: how about, i'll do that, when bitpay insists on 6 confirmations for all its payments? :)
1154 2014-06-23 15:13:41 <petertodd> hearn: kinda reminds me of a big scary warning screen DarkWallet has at startup where it gives you the option of using mainnet or testnet
1155 2014-06-23 15:13:53 CoinHeavy has quit (Client Quit)
1156 2014-06-23 15:13:53 <hearn> petertodd: i keep meaning to play with that. thought it was testnet only for now
1157 2014-06-23 15:14:00 <jgarzik> hearn, Do we really need to review all the ways that 0conf is just fine for certain businesses?
1158 2014-06-23 15:14:13 <jgarzik> default secure
1159 2014-06-23 15:14:17 <jgarzik> default trusted
1160 2014-06-23 15:14:27 dipendra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1161 2014-06-23 15:14:48 <hearn> jgarzik: you don't see any contradiction here? you're telling me to make my users wait a day or two always, regardless of their use case, because "security is good". and now you're saying it's fine that bitpay uses 0conf for everything because it's fine for certain businesses. ok, seems the same to me.
1162 2014-06-23 15:15:08 <GAit> isn't the difference in the defaults?
1163 2014-06-23 15:15:12 <petertodd> hearn: mainnet too, although even I don't trust it enough to run it in anything but a VM with small amounts of money
1164 2014-06-23 15:15:24 <jgarzik> hearn, I think it's a stupid and unrelated comparison. BitPay is not decentralized software rolled out to the entire bitcoin community.
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1167 2014-06-23 15:15:37 <jgarzik> hearn, Bitcoin Core necessarily has a higher standard
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1174 2014-06-23 15:16:49 <jgarzik> Default:trusted is obviously superior to default:untrusted
1175 2014-06-23 15:17:02 <hearn> i see no distinction. it's all software, designed to be used by ordinary humans who have varying security requirements.
1176 2014-06-23 15:18:05 <hearn> the computer industry is littered with software that killed itself by attempting to be too secure, also. it's easy to insist on ever higher security standards, then you get the famous yellow sticky note with passwords on it
1177 2014-06-23 15:18:26 <hearn> the security/usability balance is _very_ tricky and subtle. it's not something that can be summed up in a simple one liner.
1178 2014-06-23 15:18:40 <hearn> heck o'reilly have an entire book that consists just of essays and research papers on this topic. i read it once, it's very good.
1179 2014-06-23 15:19:06 <Apocalyptic> not sure it's very relevant to bitcoin's case hearn
1180 2014-06-23 15:19:13 Subo1977 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1181 2014-06-23 15:19:33 <hearn> how can it not be relevant? we're making software that tries to be both usable and secure. it by necessity means exploring this balance.
1182 2014-06-23 15:19:45 <Apocalyptic> common software didn't use to hold billions worth of irreversible money
1183 2014-06-23 15:20:11 <petertodd> Apocalyptic: that doesn't preclude a balance you know, it just makes the balance have a different center than you would otherwise expect
1184 2014-06-23 15:20:18 <Apocalyptic> indeed
1185 2014-06-23 15:20:23 <hearn> online banking and trading systems certainly do, along with people's most private data, military secrets, etc
1186 2014-06-23 15:20:50 <hearn> i mean i don't think you can say bitcoin is totally different to everything else and all prior experience and research simply gets thrown out the window because moneyzz
1187 2014-06-23 15:20:51 <Apocalyptic> petertodd, I suspect o'reilly center is quite far from what we should consider
1188 2014-06-23 15:21:13 <hearn> the research is really about human factors in software design
1189 2014-06-23 15:21:16 <hearn> and humans are the same no matter what
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1191 2014-06-23 15:22:54 <dabura667> hearn: I think most online banks don't come at the drawing board for their online banking sites saying "ok, how much should we compromise security to make an awesome usability for the customer?"... I think it starts with "How to we secure our customers?" then once they get the necessities down, they ask "OK, how usable can we make this site within these security constraints?"
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1195 2014-06-23 15:24:21 <Luke-Jr> trezor's gitian reinvention isn't even free software? why would anyone trust this? @.@
1196 2014-06-23 15:24:33 [nsh] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1197 2014-06-23 15:24:40 christophe has quit (Quit: leaving)
1198 2014-06-23 15:24:50 <netg_> wat, wasnt it supposed to ALL code being free
1199 2014-06-23 15:24:52 <hearn> dabura667: it'd be nice if banks really did work like that. look at the USA. an entire country where hardware 2-factor auth is hardly known! even in places where things are further along, banks routinely compromise security for usability, consciously. for instance in allowing signature fallbacks if there's something wrong with the card chip, allowing country-internal payments without a hardware auth, etc.
1200 2014-06-23 15:24:52 <petertodd> dabura667: you have to remember that in many countries a *lot* of political effort has been spent making banks not liable for fraud. There was a fascinating talk on that subject as the Financial Crypto conference, which pretty much boiled down to "Banks spend more effort making it impossible to prove ATM fraud then they do preventing it."
1201 2014-06-23 15:24:58 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: WTF?
1202 2014-06-23 15:25:16 non2_ has joined
1203 2014-06-23 15:25:41 <hearn> dabura667: same thing for web browsers, corporate VPNs, medical systems ... there is always a balance. otherwise nothing stops the designers from requiring ever more strict security until people just give up and go use a competitor
1204 2014-06-23 15:26:05 <hearn> dabura667: i went through this same argument when i worked on google account security. some people said, "wtf why bother doing risk analysis. everyone should use 2-factor authentication on their gmail accounts, problem solved"
1205 2014-06-23 15:26:15 micronxd has joined
1206 2014-06-23 15:26:27 <hearn> dabura667: that had the very practical problem that lots of users didn't want to use 2-factor auth and either refused to use it entirely, or tried it and then switched it off.
1207 2014-06-23 15:26:31 <petertodd> dabura667: for instance, there are examples in the UK where banks used to keep records that duplicated information, or at least made cross-checking possible, and they stopped doing that because it was being used as evidence that their chip-card security wasn't as good as they were claiming
1208 2014-06-23 15:26:51 ak__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1209 2014-06-23 15:26:53 <hearn> dabura667: so in the end a "middle road" was still necessary.
1210 2014-06-23 15:26:55 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: dunno, now someone is saying it's Apache licensed. but their website wants $$ for it. I don't get it..
1211 2014-06-23 15:27:09 <dabura667> whoa... so much green... o_o
1212 2014-06-23 15:27:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: how much $? buy a copy and release it
1213 2014-06-23 15:27:20 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: it's per-repository O.o
1214 2014-06-23 15:27:28 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: link?
1215 2014-06-23 15:27:31 <Luke-Jr> http://www.docker.com/resources/howtobuy/
1216 2014-06-23 15:27:43 <hearn> dabura667: indeed the latest Big Thing in the traditional payments world is NFC payments, which can be summed up as "lower security for faster performance when the risk seems low"
1217 2014-06-23 15:28:00 <hearn> dabura667: so our competitors are very consciously exploring the security/usability spectrum
1218 2014-06-23 15:28:38 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ah, so deterministic builds are a feature of docker. hmm, I'd almost be inclined to sign up for their offer for independent experts to do deterministic builds just to raise that issue...
1219 2014-06-23 15:29:21 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1220 2014-06-23 15:30:31 <netg_> finding out the right level of security in code und proposing general risk analysis standards is a perfect job, for the chief scientist IMHO
1221 2014-06-23 15:30:47 <netg_> as its obvious your views differ much
1222 2014-06-23 15:31:11 <petertodd> netg_: yes, I think it would be great to add yet another view to that discussion :P
1223 2014-06-23 15:31:46 <dabura667> hearn: The point I am trying to get at was what jgarzik was mentioning about defaulting to trusted, at least as far as Core is concerned. If an SPV client or some other piece of software wants to make exchanges of security for usability, then I think that's fine and as you mentioned should be encouraged to compete. But leaving the core protocol open to security weaknesses in the name of usability is dangerous imo.
1224 2014-06-23 15:31:49 <hearn> some of this stuff just has to be tried. i don't think it's always possible for someone to just Get It Right.
1225 2014-06-23 15:32:31 <sipa> especially with floating fees i agree with that... we'll just have to see how the interaction of software with an economy behaves...
1226 2014-06-23 15:32:43 <dabura667> hearn: true. Can't knock it 'til you try it, I guess.
1227 2014-06-23 15:32:54 <epscy> is there a rollback procedure? :p
1228 2014-06-23 15:33:00 <hearn> dabura667: also i think there's a small misunderstanding. getutxo does not add any security weaknesses to the protocol (ignoring the usual DoS stuff which can be triggered via many other ways). jeff's objection is that people might use it to write insecure apps
1229 2014-06-23 15:33:02 <sipa> epscy: sure, just use a time machine
1230 2014-06-23 15:33:10 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, floating fees is fine, but as I said on day 1, it must be sanity checked or you'll find out that interaction didn't go as planned...
1231 2014-06-23 15:33:14 <hearn> dabura667: but this is the old "SPV vs full" debate again
1232 2014-06-23 15:33:31 <dabura667> hearn: ok, I didn't catch on that.
1233 2014-06-23 15:33:31 <hearn> SPV is less secure than full and more secure than web wallets. we let the market decide. outcome: mixed.
1234 2014-06-23 15:33:58 Aquent_ is now known as Aquent
1235 2014-06-23 15:34:01 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1236 2014-06-23 15:34:13 <hearn> so far it's sort of a race between mostly centralised web wallets, entirely centralised web wallets, and SPV wallets. not sure how many people use Core as a wallet these days, it's a bit hard to measure. probably still a lot. i'm guessing in the hundreds of thousands range.
1237 2014-06-23 15:34:28 * hearn wonders why anyone would choose "so" as their nick
1238 2014-06-23 15:34:42 <Apocalyptic> I hope there is a lot of them
1239 2014-06-23 15:35:30 <hearn> Apocalyptic: i think the numbers will fluctuate as Core's resource requirements do. allowing chain pruning and upgrade-from-SPV would help a lot, of course. though that'd muddy the waters of who is using what security model even more :)
1240 2014-06-23 15:35:31 rdymac has joined
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1242 2014-06-23 15:35:53 <dabura667> I can't wait til BIP32 + BIP39 with Trezor English dict. is just in at least one wallet on every platform... Then I think we'll see SPV wallets soar into first place.
1243 2014-06-23 15:36:25 <hearn> dabura667: good news! someone is working on married wallets for bitcoinj. making good progress, writing good code. that's BIP32+multisig wallets that are "married" to a third party risk analysis operator.
1244 2014-06-23 15:36:26 <dabura667> And part of the reason I like Electrum. Even though the current Android client is really cruddy, I can have the same wallet on my PC and android
1245 2014-06-23 15:36:35 AndrewJackson has joined
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1247 2014-06-23 15:36:55 <dabura667> hearn: *squee*
1248 2014-06-23 15:37:14 <hearn> ah yes. well i'm working on HD wallets for bitcoinj at the moment so then cloning wallets,at least at the financial level, will become possible. we still need to find a nice way to do electrum style metadata sync
1249 2014-06-23 15:37:28 <hearn> as metadata is becoming more and more important over time.
1250 2014-06-23 15:37:38 <sipa> use the cloud!
1251 2014-06-23 15:37:44 <hearn> heh
1252 2014-06-23 15:37:52 <Luke-Jr> +1 (jk)
1253 2014-06-23 15:37:57 <dabura667> Electrum doesn't do metadata sync... I think theres a plugin for contacts but thats about it
1254 2014-06-23 15:38:02 <hearn> i thought it did label syncing
1255 2014-06-23 15:38:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the obvious solution is to embed your wallet in the blockchain
1256 2014-06-23 15:38:12 <dabura667> yeah that's a plugin not main
1257 2014-06-23 15:38:13 <Luke-Jr> we can make OP_RETURN bigger
1258 2014-06-23 15:38:18 <hearn> ah ok
1259 2014-06-23 15:38:19 <dabura667> and only for PC client
1260 2014-06-23 15:38:30 <sipa> Luke-Jr: right;it's the obvious best solution
1261 2014-06-23 15:38:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's even log-based, perfect format!
1262 2014-06-23 15:38:50 <dabura667> Luke-Jr: OP_RETURN ALL THE DATAS!
1263 2014-06-23 15:38:54 <hearn> wallets aren't very big. i think we could hash the wallet into an OP_RETURN output and then use ASICs to reverse the hash into the real wallet via brute force
1264 2014-06-23 15:38:58 <hearn> it's decentralised and elegant ;)
1265 2014-06-23 15:39:09 <sipa> hearn: lol!
1266 2014-06-23 15:39:13 <gdm85> btw, wumpus, I noticed you contributed some other repository on github: etna_viv. mind if I PM you about it? not for a long talk
1267 2014-06-23 15:39:58 zerwas has joined
1268 2014-06-23 15:40:01 <dabura667> I'm going to go play Monaco, I just bought on Steam summer sale. Nice talking to you guys, cya.
1269 2014-06-23 15:40:03 banghouse has joined
1270 2014-06-23 15:40:19 <wumpus> gdm85: sure
1271 2014-06-23 15:40:32 <hearn> later
1272 2014-06-23 15:40:34 <petertodd> Luke-Jr, sipa: I actually semi-seriously suggested that as a way to upgrade from non-HD to HD wallets...
1273 2014-06-23 15:41:03 ThomasV has joined
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1275 2014-06-23 15:42:06 benrcole1 has joined
1276 2014-06-23 15:42:17 * hearn -> home
1277 2014-06-23 15:42:20 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1278 2014-06-23 15:42:21 benrcole has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1279 2014-06-23 15:42:53 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: why do you need a wallet file?? all I need is my brainwallet, lets store that in a OP_RETURN output
1280 2014-06-23 15:43:15 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: only if you memorise the blockchain .->
1281 2014-06-23 15:43:19 <Luke-Jr> ._. *
1282 2014-06-23 15:43:20 T19EL has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1283 2014-06-23 15:43:34 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: nah, other people do that for you
1284 2014-06-23 15:44:43 T19EL has joined
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1287 2014-06-23 15:45:16 sabbie is now known as Sabbie
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1300 2014-06-23 15:58:58 <sipa> this has to be the most confusingly wrong notation for the bitcoind version numbers yet:
1301 2014-06-23 15:59:01 <sipa> "I downloaded the latest 0.92 BTC source code "
1302 2014-06-23 16:00:12 <Luke-Jr> ROFL
1303 2014-06-23 16:00:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: bet it's an altcoin fan
1304 2014-06-23 16:00:58 <Luke-Jr> (altcoins often use their base unit as an abbreviation)
1305 2014-06-23 16:01:10 <Luke-Jr> (and don't understand the concept of decentralisation)
1306 2014-06-23 16:02:33 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1307 2014-06-23 16:05:10 <petertodd> sipa: sounds better when you say it's version 920,000 bits
1308 2014-06-23 16:05:37 <wumpus> i wonder who he paid those 0.92BTC to
1309 2014-06-23 16:05:44 <sipa> i'd say he paid way too much for some crappy piece of opensource code...
1310 2014-06-23 16:06:06 <petertodd> sipa: but it's enterprise!
1311 2014-06-23 16:07:15 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1312 2014-06-23 16:07:30 PRab has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1313 2014-06-23 16:07:47 <wumpus> petertodd: enterprise licenses are much more expensive!
1314 2014-06-23 16:08:53 <petertodd> wumpus: well that's just a single seat obviously, and the price is a few months out of date...
1315 2014-06-23 16:09:48 _flow_ has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3)
1316 2014-06-23 16:09:59 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: will we charge for 0.10?
1317 2014-06-23 16:10:04 _flow_ has joined
1318 2014-06-23 16:10:07 <sipa> yes, 0.10 BTC
1319 2014-06-23 16:10:19 <Luke-Jr> cool
1320 2014-06-23 16:10:23 <sipa> significantly cheaper than the previous version, which was 0.92 :)
1321 2014-06-23 16:10:24 <Luke-Jr> how much will 0.10 BTC be worth then?
1322 2014-06-23 16:10:25 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1323 2014-06-23 16:10:42 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: 0.10 BTC
1324 2014-06-23 16:10:44 * Luke-Jr tries to trick sipa into speculating on future prices :P
1325 2014-06-23 16:11:13 <dsnrk> sipa: just wait, if "bits" catches on we'll be in a world of hurt. "bitcoin uses 256bit private keys.." "what if I want to store more than 256 bits, I need two!????"
1326 2014-06-23 16:11:42 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: sounds like win for TBC
1327 2014-06-23 16:12:42 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: come on, we have a hard enough time with decimals. I'd love everything to be expressed as power of two, butttt it's not going to happen I don't think.
1328 2014-06-23 16:12:51 dekalo has joined
1329 2014-06-23 16:13:13 <dekalo> hello
1330 2014-06-23 16:13:19 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: maybe eligius can only mine outputs that are of the size 2^n? ;)
1331 2014-06-23 16:13:45 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: or at least prioritise them :P
1332 2014-06-23 16:13:59 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1333 2014-06-23 16:14:12 <netg_> sound selfish
1334 2014-06-23 16:14:13 <Luke-Jr> but then there's silly people like phantomcircuit who will represent every decimal number in multiple 2^n outputs
1335 2014-06-23 16:14:14 <netg_> ;)
1336 2014-06-23 16:16:41 abossard has quit (Quit: abossard)
1337 2014-06-23 16:18:16 <AndersAA> I don't like how Aaron Voisne hardcoded "bits" into Breadwallet for iOS. Only a matter of time before that gets forked. Great app though.
1338 2014-06-23 16:19:30 <dsnrk> seeds aren't compatible with anything though. I thought they would be transportable to Electrum, but nope.
1339 2014-06-23 16:19:44 <netg_> chief scientist should talk with him and sort this issue out :)
1340 2014-06-23 16:19:55 eoss has joined
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1342 2014-06-23 16:20:26 <dsnrk> I misunderstood BIP32 and thought it would allow for people to easily transport between software (something which we don't have now, everybody uses their own lame format), but it looks like Electrum doesn't even make seeds that are the same from version to version, let alone with anybody else.
1343 2014-06-23 16:20:35 akstunt600 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1344 2014-06-23 16:20:38 <dabura667> dsnrk: Electrum uses its own thing... breadwallet is BIP32
1345 2014-06-23 16:21:25 <dabura667> Electrum version 2.0 will support BIP32... but its mnemonic phrase will use a different dictionary and will include a version byte at the beginning... so not BIP32 standard per se.
1346 2014-06-23 16:21:36 <dsnrk> exactly.
1347 2014-06-23 16:21:37 graingert has joined
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1351 2014-06-23 16:22:01 <dsnrk> so then wallets have to do 32 different bip32 versions, and we're back to incompatible wallet files.
1352 2014-06-23 16:22:02 <dabura667> However, if you can decode the mnemonic, remove the version byte and reencode it with the Trezor dictionary which seems to be what everyone is using, then you could use it.
1353 2014-06-23 16:22:20 <dabura667> It would be trivial to create a Electrum <> BIP32 conversion tool.
1354 2014-06-23 16:22:28 t7 has joined
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1356 2014-06-23 16:24:12 <dabura667> unfortunately, the mnemonic BIP (39) needs to set a 1 language 1 dictionary standard... imo.
1357 2014-06-23 16:24:27 <dabura667> anywho, venturing into offtopic land.
1358 2014-06-23 16:24:31 <dsnrk> I don't want to have to explain that to users. the seeds look and act the same. people should have sat down for more than 5 minutes and worked out a standard everybody agreed on.
1359 2014-06-23 16:24:32 weilu has joined
1360 2014-06-23 16:25:02 <dabura667> > people should have sat down for more than 5 minutes and worked out a standard everybody agreed on.
1361 2014-06-23 16:25:03 <sipa> people argued for months...
1362 2014-06-23 16:25:10 <dabura667> The story of my professional life...
1363 2014-06-23 16:25:33 [nsh] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1364 2014-06-23 16:25:57 <AndersAA> http://xkcd.com/927/
1365 2014-06-23 16:26:14 <dsnrk> sipa: I realise (I read that), but the pain is not just going to be one parties. it's something that's pretty much destroyed that use of BIP32 in my eyes.
1366 2014-06-23 16:26:16 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1367 2014-06-23 16:26:22 <dabura667> Thomas was saying that he views BIP39 as trivial and that BIP0044 is more important... however he said he didn't like the current BIP0044 draft.
1368 2014-06-23 16:27:04 <dabura667> But he's busy with 2.0... and starting his company and 2FA service... etc.etc.
1369 2014-06-23 16:28:18 [nsh] has joined
1370 2014-06-23 16:28:25 <dsnrk> sorry this is straying into OT for this channel.
1371 2014-06-23 16:28:46 <dabura667> I am gonna go on record and +1 a 1-language 1-dictionary rule for BIP39. Though BIPs are OT.
1372 2014-06-23 16:28:51 bitnumus has quit (Quit: :))
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1374 2014-06-23 16:30:25 sipa has left ()
1375 2014-06-23 16:30:39 <dabura667> AndersAA: UTF-8 was amazing... then UTF-16 came out, etc... endless loop. Anywho I'm going to bed, I have to code a silly Excel Macro for my boss... (shoot me)
1376 2014-06-23 16:31:10 dabura667 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1378 2014-06-23 16:33:32 <hearn> UTF-16 predates UTF-8
1379 2014-06-23 16:33:37 mjb504_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1380 2014-06-23 16:33:40 <hearn> oh, he's gone.
1381 2014-06-23 16:33:42 <wumpus> yes, one can never have enough standards, and one can never invent the wheel enough times
1382 2014-06-23 16:34:02 akstunt600 has joined
1383 2014-06-23 16:34:16 <hearn> in fairness, UTF-16 was the "obvious" way, and when UTF-8 was invented everyone agreed it was better and switched to it. the only time i encounter UTF-16 these days is in software that predates the widespread adoption of UTF-8.
1384 2014-06-23 16:34:29 <hearn> (the exception being when performance is absolutely critical....)
1385 2014-06-23 16:35:31 <wumpus> UTF-16 was the obvious way until it was discovered that 16 bits isn't enough to represent every glyph that humans use either
1386 2014-06-23 16:35:41 <hearn> right
1387 2014-06-23 16:36:07 <wumpus> UTF-32 never caught on for some reason :-)
1388 2014-06-23 16:36:41 ferroh has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1389 2014-06-23 16:36:48 gonedrk1 has joined
1390 2014-06-23 16:37:05 <dsnrk> I don't think UTF-32 went far enough. UTF-64 is where the party is at.
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1395 2014-06-23 16:38:53 <wumpus> dsnrk: that will be introduced along with the switch to 128 bit timestamps
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1399 2014-06-23 16:42:12 <dsnrk> wumpus: ah yes, the impending year 292,277,026,596 problem.
1400 2014-06-23 16:43:45 AnoAnon has joined
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1402 2014-06-23 16:45:33 <phantomcircuit> hearn, that would be...all of windows
1403 2014-06-23 16:45:48 <hearn> yes, i know
1404 2014-06-23 16:45:52 <hearn> i used to do win32 programming
1405 2014-06-23 16:46:04 <hearn> heck a bit of win16 to
1406 2014-06-23 16:46:05 <hearn> *too
1407 2014-06-23 16:46:58 <hearn> java is the same, annoyingly
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1412 2014-06-23 16:51:20 <wumpus> well no matter what utf8/utf16/utf32 at least it's a solved issue now, no need for per-locale character sets anymore, yay
1413 2014-06-23 16:52:02 <gavinandresen> current master unit tests are failing for me: test/DoS_tests.cpp:293: error: in "DoS_checkSig": Signature cache timing failed
1414 2014-06-23 16:52:04 <gavinandresen> is it just me?
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1416 2014-06-23 16:52:31 <dsnrk> I'll check.
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1418 2014-06-23 16:53:03 <wumpus> gavinandresen: no errors detected here
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1422 2014-06-23 16:54:27 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, that's cheating, you gotta checkout upstream/master, autogen.sh, configure, make clean, make, then run the tests :P
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1425 2014-06-23 16:55:37 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: I do that all day
1426 2014-06-23 16:55:59 <wumpus> :p
1427 2014-06-23 16:56:00 <phantomcircuit> butyeah
1428 2014-06-23 16:56:01 <phantomcircuit> Running 124 test cases...
1429 2014-06-23 16:56:01 <phantomcircuit> *** No errors detected
1430 2014-06-23 16:56:22 <gavinandresen> bah...
1431 2014-06-23 16:56:32 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, nom nom ccache
1432 2014-06-23 16:56:56 <phantomcircuit> 6s build
1433 2014-06-23 16:56:57 <phantomcircuit> hehe
1434 2014-06-23 16:57:34 <dsnrk> fails for me on OSX.
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1436 2014-06-23 16:58:31 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, interesting
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1442 2014-06-23 17:02:02 <dsnrk> fails to build the QT binary, more precisely
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1458 2014-06-23 17:16:00 <dsnrk> and on fresh system it builds fine. no idea what's going on there.
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1461 2014-06-23 17:19:32 <cfields> dsnrk: only fails on osx?
1462 2014-06-23 17:20:21 <dsnrk> cfields: seems fine on a different OSX box, I need to check my setup.
1463 2014-06-23 17:20:44 <cfields> dsnrk: 'fails to build' how?
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1473 2014-06-23 17:23:55 <dsnrk> cfields: http://0bin.net/paste/mdnRrHEXBI5MDw2p#e7wb0JhKvY1mzJCRtAGsMfv04FuQQMJ4R+fdRQOh-mC
1474 2014-06-23 17:24:39 <cfields> dsnrk: building current master?
1475 2014-06-23 17:24:47 <dsnrk> yep.
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1477 2014-06-23 17:27:22 <cfields> dsnrk: could you 'make V=1', please?
1478 2014-06-23 17:27:34 <cfields> looks like -qt isn't linking in the wallet stuff
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1480 2014-06-23 17:27:46 <embicoin> Awww I read that maaku told me that some of you are planning to get rid of bdb eventually... just to ask, which db's are the candidate(s) for the replacement?
1481 2014-06-23 17:28:11 <kazcw> none. it's an append-only kv store; a db is overkill
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1484 2014-06-23 17:29:54 <embicoin> Then, just ecnrypted json or redis like local solution would be possible or adequate?
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1486 2014-06-23 17:31:05 <embicoin> i wondered myself about it sometimes, but I am not a db expert... there must be an especifications or requirements about it...
1487 2014-06-23 17:31:12 <cfields> jgarzik: ping
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1489 2014-06-23 17:32:20 <embicoin> Is there a topic about it in the forums or mail list? Is interesting for me
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1497 2014-06-23 17:37:45 <dsnrk> cfields: sorry, got dropped. here you go. http://0bin.net/paste/3pdbnWMkyEv6l+JY#d-z4yxYqPuuqwLbnLpLLcaeNlyNKOqTJ437UyU1+Yoy
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1507 2014-06-23 17:42:07 <cfields> dsnrk: thanks
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1519 2014-06-23 17:49:32 <wumpus> embicoin: there are no concrete plans for what database to switch to for the wallet, though anything that needs a third-party dependency is extremely unlikely
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1522 2014-06-23 17:51:20 <wumpus> anyhow, the wallet in bitcoin core doesn't have much priority, unless someone suddenly starts contributing to it heavily I don't expect anything to change soon
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1525 2014-06-23 17:52:53 <cfields> dsnrk: aha, the bitcoin-config.h change was merged
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1529 2014-06-23 17:53:30 <cfields> dsnrk: i would expect that there might be one in-between build where some strange things happen
1530 2014-06-23 17:53:51 <wumpus> did you re-run autoconf.sh?
1531 2014-06-23 17:54:25 <cfields> ah no wait, i see what it would be
1532 2014-06-23 17:54:42 <cfields> the old file and the new one are both found in valid paths
1533 2014-06-23 17:54:47 <cfields> sec, will work up a fix
1534 2014-06-23 17:55:10 <cfields> dsnrk: for a temp fix, move src/bitcoin-config.h src/bitcoin-config.h.old
1535 2014-06-23 17:55:19 <cfields> but please don't nuke it, so you can verify the real fix
1536 2014-06-23 17:55:25 <embicoin> Thanks wumpus ;)
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1538 2014-06-23 17:55:49 <dsnrk> cfields: so, building clean again and seeing if that works?
1539 2014-06-23 17:56:09 <cfields> dsnrk: after you move that file, should work fine
1540 2014-06-23 17:59:02 <dsnrk> alright, lets see (wishing I had more cores)
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1543 2014-06-23 18:01:12 <dsnrk> cfields: yep, we're gold.
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1546 2014-06-23 18:01:31 <cfields> dsnrk: great, thanks. real fix coming up in just a min
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1555 2014-06-23 18:12:34 <cfields> dsnrk: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4395
1556 2014-06-23 18:13:36 <cfields> wumpus: would be nice to get that one tested/merged pretty quickly, otherwise a few people are likely to end up chasing their tails for a little while :\
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1558 2014-06-23 18:16:39 <dsnrk> cfields: I've renamed the file back to pre-fix, applied the patch, just waitinf for the build.
1559 2014-06-23 18:17:21 <cfields> dsnrk: i'm assuming you either switched branches around, or alternated between --[enable|disable]-wallet between builds
1560 2014-06-23 18:17:34 <cfields> you'll need to do the same to verify the fix
1561 2014-06-23 18:17:51 <dsnrk> understood
1562 2014-06-23 18:19:04 <cfields> what happened was: you built with wallet and had all the right objects, then built without wallet, but it found the wrong config. So it tried to build with wallet functionality but was missing the actual objects that provide it
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1568 2014-06-23 18:22:16 <dsnrk> cfields: tested 3 builds (disablewallet, enabled, disablewallet) all with no issue.
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1571 2014-06-23 18:23:08 <cfields> dsnrk: perfect, thanks.
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1575 2014-06-23 18:28:52 <jgarzik> cfields, pong
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1583 2014-06-23 18:42:10 <maaku> embicoin: no, a dead-simple binary append only file would be better
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1586 2014-06-23 18:42:39 <maaku> the ideal is a common interchange format that is dead-simple to support
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1591 2014-06-23 18:47:16 <jgarzik> embicoin, maaku: Yes, that is the sketch of the plan. An append-only format.
1592 2014-06-23 18:47:40 <jgarzik> But you need to be aware of some annoying filesystem details, if strictly just appending to one file.
1593 2014-06-23 18:48:04 <jgarzik> (in an atomic, secure, doesn't-stomp-other-data sort of way)
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1624 2014-06-23 19:12:03 <cfields> jgarzik: a general observation on the UniValue class. Curious as to whether you think it'd be useful to define it as an interface class, with hard-typed subtypes
1625 2014-06-23 19:12:22 <jgarzik> cfields, puke
1626 2014-06-23 19:12:24 <cfields> jgarzik: a quick (rough) mock-up of the idea:
1627 2014-06-23 19:12:35 <jgarzik> cfields, That is one of the problems of JSON-spirit
1628 2014-06-23 19:12:43 <cfields> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=cQeP9349
1629 2014-06-23 19:13:05 <jgarzik> cfields, You have all these damned classes, then you wind up creating extra code in implementation, just to convert between types, request The Real Type from the The Generic Type, etc.
1630 2014-06-23 19:13:11 <jgarzik> cfields, json-spirit shows that is the wrong way to go.
1631 2014-06-23 19:13:53 <cfields> jgarzik: fair enough, i figured you had a good reason :)
1632 2014-06-23 19:14:09 <jgarzik> cfields, "UniValue" was named thusly because it is a universal value, one class to handle all json values
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1636 2014-06-23 19:14:59 <cfields> i was just thinking in terms of reducing dependencies, letting each class dictate how to serialize/read/write itself.
1637 2014-06-23 19:15:12 <cfields> but i suppose, again, that's the opposite of what you're going for here
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1639 2014-06-23 19:15:45 <jgarzik> too complicated for json
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1641 2014-06-23 19:16:26 <cfields> ok, asked and answered.
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1643 2014-06-23 19:16:48 <jgarzik> cfields, thanks for thinking about the problem though :)
1644 2014-06-23 19:17:08 <cfields> jgarzik: np. abstraction and templates are what you get when you ask a c++ guy for review :)
1645 2014-06-23 19:17:20 <jgarzik> hehehe
1646 2014-06-23 19:18:03 <cfields> jgarzik: i'd just like to see one lib (bitcon-json or so) to rule them all for that functionality in core
1647 2014-06-23 19:18:14 <cfields> but i suppose you have next steps in mind for something like that
1648 2014-06-23 19:18:27 <gavinandresen> â¦. yeah, we could abstract it away into an iterator that takes a factory method to parse and then we could use it to parse XML, too!!! That's be AWESOME!!!!!
1649 2014-06-23 19:18:38 <jgarzik> I cannot seem to find it at the moment, but, years ago, Google published a style guide on how to write performant C++ in a production, mission-critical environment. A lot of the style guide described how to turn off various features like RTTI, avoiding pitfalls with abstract classes (that generate tons of useless code)
1650 2014-06-23 19:18:51 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, :)
1651 2014-06-23 19:19:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the short short version of it is "write C code" :P
1652 2014-06-23 19:19:27 <cfields> jgarzik: good luck turning off RTTI with boost :)
1653 2014-06-23 19:19:27 <pigeons> good, 36db6633c314b0f41aeee856f74a8d5d59334dbb fixed my bitcoin-qt issue i reported the other day
1654 2014-06-23 19:19:29 <jgarzik> The style guide stripped away all the overly polymorphic, templated crap that costs a lot at runtime
1655 2014-06-23 19:19:47 <jgarzik> yeah the tl;dr of the guide was "don't use boost or STL"
1656 2014-06-23 19:19:48 <gavinandresen> I think we were the first group at SGI waaaay back in 1990-something to use C++. And we got advice from experts even back then on what features to ignore (e.g. multiple inheritance).
1657 2014-06-23 19:20:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, C with classes ;p
1658 2014-06-23 19:20:19 <cfields> jgarzik: heh, yep, that's prety much C
1659 2014-06-23 19:20:21 <jgarzik> C+ not C++
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1661 2014-06-23 19:20:57 <jgarzik> OK, back to rebasing UniValue and incorporating sipa's feedback :)
1662 2014-06-23 19:20:58 <cfields> pigeons: sorry, that was my mess :\
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1712 2014-06-23 20:08:14 <jgarzik> cfields, sipa: what does anon namespace do, again? Scope symbols to the local module?
1713 2014-06-23 20:08:43 <jgarzik> I saw sipa do that in another commit
1714 2014-06-23 20:09:23 <cfields> jgarzik: yea. makes it clear to the reader that it won't be used elsewhere, and ensures that symbols won't clash if you re-use the same static function name elsewhere
1715 2014-06-23 20:10:45 <cfields> elsewhere meaning separate translation unit
1716 2014-06-23 20:11:01 <sipa> jgarzik: it's basically static in steroids
1717 2014-06-23 20:11:33 <sipa> meaning "this whole block is not exported to other modules"
1718 2014-06-23 20:11:46 <jgarzik> ok, that's what I figured, thanks
1719 2014-06-23 20:11:51 <sipa> (which means the compiler can omit code if it's inlined everywhere etc
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1730 2014-06-23 20:21:05 <cfields> jgarzik: is -0x01 supposed to be a valid token?
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1734 2014-06-23 20:22:09 <cfields> (in ParseScript())
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1738 2014-06-23 20:23:45 <sipa> jtimon: what does DRY mean?
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1741 2014-06-23 20:23:58 <jtimon> don't repeat yourself
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1744 2014-06-23 20:26:24 <jtimon> seriously, I still don't get what's wrong with the wallet calling the core...why have 2 different c++ programs (the core and the wallet) that talk to the p2p network?
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1746 2014-06-23 20:26:42 <jtimon> I feel I'm missing something
1747 2014-06-23 20:26:48 <sipa> separation
1748 2014-06-23 20:26:57 <sipa> everything can speak the p2p protocol
1749 2014-06-23 20:27:06 <sipa> it means you can use any wallet with any node implementation
1750 2014-06-23 20:27:35 <gmaxwell> including different versions of the reference.
1751 2014-06-23 20:27:47 <jtimon> I thought the qt wallet would still be "the wallet that relies on the reference node implementation"
1752 2014-06-23 20:27:50 <sipa> i think the important part is that it is not separating *the* wallet from core
1753 2014-06-23 20:27:57 <sipa> no, that is what i want to get rid of
1754 2014-06-23 20:28:09 <sipa> it is making all wallets potentially equal
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1756 2014-06-23 20:28:35 <jtimon> I mean, by separating it the way I thought was the plan, you could get many wallets relying on bitcoind's core
1757 2014-06-23 20:28:44 <gmaxwell> Potentially also includes other spv wallets gaining security features around binding to trusted nodes.
1758 2014-06-23 20:28:52 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1759 2014-06-23 20:28:53 <sipa> i also want to get rid of bitcoind playing indexing server for everything
1760 2014-06-23 20:28:53 <jtimon> competing on features but getting much of their security from core
1761 2014-06-23 20:29:02 <sipa> if you need that, put it in a separate tool
1762 2014-06-23 20:29:23 <sipa> there's no need why that needs to be in the same codebase as the consensus code that runs the network
1763 2014-06-23 20:29:26 <gmaxwell> jtimon: which can be true too, e.g. if they work by preferrentially binding to configured trusted nodes.
1764 2014-06-23 20:29:44 <jtimon> so you don't think companies should "put bitcoind in their hedges"?
1765 2014-06-23 20:29:52 <sipa> i think they do
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1767 2014-06-23 20:29:54 <sipa> for validation
1768 2014-06-23 20:29:58 <sipa> but not for anything else
1769 2014-06-23 20:30:47 <gmaxwell> jtimon: the wallet being able to speak the p2p protocol doesn't mean that the most secure configuration (or even one you should use, depending on your application) is where you point it at the public network.
1770 2014-06-23 20:30:48 <jtimon> "for validation" but you don't want other programs they're running to reuse that validation because "the core is not supposed to maintain indexes"
1771 2014-06-23 20:30:58 <sipa> building an index is trivial
1772 2014-06-23 20:31:13 <gmaxwell> jtimon: it you have an index beind bitcoind core then its using that nodes validation.
1773 2014-06-23 20:31:25 <jtimon> yep, specially when you already have a db with that data...
1774 2014-06-23 20:31:48 <sipa> a db that is optimized for exactly one type of query, which clearly does not suffice for everyone
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1776 2014-06-23 20:32:40 <sipa> i think there are ultimately 3 separatable components: (validation/utxo/blockchain), (watching the chain), (maintaining keys and signing)
1777 2014-06-23 20:32:41 <gmaxwell> the default configuration of bitcoind core will be pruned at some point in the future, adding any of those indexes will be an immediate (say, a year from now) 40gbyte space overhead.
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1781 2014-06-23 20:32:59 <sipa> there are 2 independent separations possible
1782 2014-06-23 20:33:09 <jtimon> gmaxwell "an index beind bitcoind core then its using that nodes validation." you meant "binded"? what do you mean by that?
1783 2014-06-23 20:33:23 <gmaxwell> I mean behind.
1784 2014-06-23 20:33:32 * gmaxwell cureses lenovo's new keyboards.
1785 2014-06-23 20:33:48 <jtimon> hehe, cureses
1786 2014-06-23 20:33:54 <jaakkos> how about the touchpad...
1787 2014-06-23 20:33:54 <sipa> yeah, you'd run bitcoind as core router doing validation, everything in your network talks to it and is sure it only sees valid data, through p2p/spv
1788 2014-06-23 20:34:15 <sipa> if the very minimal querying bitcoind offer suffices, good
1789 2014-06-23 20:34:35 <sipa> if not, run a separate indexing server in your network, which is also guaranteed to only see valid data
1790 2014-06-23 20:36:49 <jtimon> so if you're running a "validation node "and a "index node" and a "wallet node", all controlled by yourself...you wan't them to talk through the p2p protocol instead of plain http, tcp, whatever?
1791 2014-06-23 20:37:02 <jtimon> why?
1792 2014-06-23 20:37:11 <sipa> why invent a new protocol?
1793 2014-06-23 20:37:26 <sipa> you already need implementations of p2p anyway
1794 2014-06-23 20:38:19 <sipa> applications talking to such index or wallet servers can use whatever they want of course
1795 2014-06-23 20:38:47 <jtimon> using http, tcp, or ipc is inventing a new protocol?
1796 2014-06-23 20:38:57 <sipa> i mean the communication between the validation node and whatever needs to access its information can just use p2p... as it is exactly what the validation node is built to be good at
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1798 2014-06-23 20:39:13 <jtimon> ok, makes sense
1799 2014-06-23 20:39:21 <sipa> you'll need ways of signalling reorganizations, relaying blocks, announcing things, ...
1800 2014-06-23 20:39:45 <sipa> all things the p2p protocol already does, and with well-tested implementations of keeping track of the chain state
1801 2014-06-23 20:40:01 <sipa> yes, it means duplicating some header data in multiple nodes...
1802 2014-06-23 20:40:28 <jtimon> at least makes sense for the valditation/indexing, the indexing/wallet case you're ok with using something else
1803 2014-06-23 20:41:19 <cfields> jgarzik: that's all for my nits
1804 2014-06-23 20:41:35 <sipa> something like a tx tracking server is useful... which you tell which keys/scripts you're interested it, and it notifies you if something interesting happens to them
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1806 2014-06-23 20:42:09 <sipa> you could have lightweight wallets talking to such a tracking server, and iirc that is what coinvault and bitsofproof are doing
1807 2014-06-23 20:42:23 <sipa> and in sense, electrum servers + electrum wallets too
1808 2014-06-23 20:43:00 <jtimon> yeah, I guess an indexing node would be equivalent to such a light client, but interested in all transactions
1809 2014-06-23 20:43:23 <sipa> imho any design that requires such an index is broken, but that's just my opinion :)
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1811 2014-06-23 20:43:45 <sipa> apart from debugging
1812 2014-06-23 20:45:14 <jtimon> no, I mean, an explorer connected to a core with the "tx tracking feature", just not filtering by any transaction, just give me everything you validate so I include it into my index
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1814 2014-06-23 20:45:28 <jtimon> well, I was thinking out loud
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1816 2014-06-23 20:46:16 <sipa> sure
1817 2014-06-23 20:46:25 <sipa> it may make sense in some setup
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1839 2014-06-23 21:03:15 <jgarzik> cfields, thanks muchly
1840 2014-06-23 21:03:37 <cfields> jgarzik: np. did you see my question above, though?
1841 2014-06-23 21:03:49 <cfields> is -0x01 intended to be a valid hex input?
1842 2014-06-23 21:04:04 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1843 2014-06-23 21:04:14 <jgarzik> cfields, I think so, lemme check
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1847 2014-06-23 21:04:32 <cfields> jgarzik: if so, it doesn't look like it'll be caught correctly
1848 2014-06-23 21:04:43 micronxd has joined
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1850 2014-06-23 21:06:34 <jgarzik> cfields, The parser is known to accept some invalid input. That doesn't bother me overmuch, as I consider JSON parsers too strict in general. The more important thing I spent a lot of time testing is properly handling valid input
1851 2014-06-23 21:07:20 * sipa does not like accepting mildly-invalid input design in general... since OpenSSL DER signatures...
1852 2014-06-23 21:07:49 Aquent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1853 2014-06-23 21:08:09 <jgarzik> sipa, refusing ",]" construct is bad for humanity.
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1855 2014-06-23 21:08:24 <cfields> jgarzik: src/core_read.cpp:57 is where i'm looking. seems it'll accept 1, -1, 0x1, but not -0x1
1856 2014-06-23 21:08:33 <cfields> jgarzik: if that's as-intended, then no worries
1857 2014-06-23 21:08:33 <sipa> then define JgarzikSON to fix it :p
1858 2014-06-23 21:08:43 <jgarzik> sipa, json is an expressive input language, not something deterministic or hashable
1859 2014-06-23 21:08:52 <sipa> agree there
1860 2014-06-23 21:08:55 <sipa> still
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1863 2014-06-23 21:09:50 <jgarzik> cfields, oh that
1864 2014-06-23 21:09:55 <jgarzik> That's not JSON
1865 2014-06-23 21:09:56 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1866 2014-06-23 21:10:07 <jgarzik> I guess we were debating something other than what cfields was looking at :)
1867 2014-06-23 21:10:36 <cfields> heh, my fault for giving zero context.
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1869 2014-06-23 21:11:06 <jgarzik> cfields, everything in core_read was stolen from existing implementations
1870 2014-06-23 21:11:50 <jgarzik> cfields, $NotMyBug. That routine came from the tests.
1871 2014-06-23 21:12:32 <jgarzik> cfields, specifically https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/script_tests.cpp#L81 on master
1872 2014-06-23 21:12:45 <jgarzik> cfields, worth filing an issue?
1873 2014-06-23 21:13:06 <jgarzik> cfields, it's just our lame text-to-CScript parser
1874 2014-06-23 21:13:47 <cfields> jgarzik: zero clue here, was just a naive read-through. If it looks like it could be an issue, I can file one, sure
1875 2014-06-23 21:14:23 * jgarzik was scratching his head, wondering where in the hell was the JSON hex parsing code, which did not appear to exist in my codebase nor spec on http://json.org/ :) :)
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1878 2014-06-23 21:16:34 * jgarzik _finally_ gets back to cfields' PR feedback. Great stuff... this is exactly what I was looking for. Being more a C person, I'm never sure what is the favorite pass-by-foo in some situations.
1879 2014-06-23 21:16:43 <jgarzik> pass-by-ref, pass-by-value, etc.
1880 2014-06-23 21:17:01 <jgarzik> cfields, you're welcome to spam :)
1881 2014-06-23 21:17:01 <cfields> jgarzik: rule of thumb (ignoring c++11) is objects get passed by const ref
1882 2014-06-23 21:17:13 <jgarzik> cfields, OK, good
1883 2014-06-23 21:17:16 <cfields> built-ins are passed by val
1884 2014-06-23 21:17:42 <cfields> very basic rule of thumb, that is
1885 2014-06-23 21:17:57 <jgarzik> cfields, built-ins meaning native types like float, int, etc.?
1886 2014-06-23 21:18:03 <jgarzik> non-class types
1887 2014-06-23 21:18:08 <jgarzik> I forget the proper name
1888 2014-06-23 21:18:09 <jgarzik> POD?
1889 2014-06-23 21:18:12 <sipa> anything small enough to fit in a register: pass by value
1890 2014-06-23 21:18:43 <jgarzik> Dammit. What is that name for types that you must initialize manually?
1891 2014-06-23 21:18:51 <sipa> POD
1892 2014-06-23 21:19:34 <sipa> but if you have a wrapper class around a simple int, you may well pass it by value too
1893 2014-06-23 21:19:43 <cfields> right. int64_t and friends is usually where the debates start
1894 2014-06-23 21:20:06 <jgarzik> ... yet this is the deepest I've ever been into C++
1895 2014-06-23 21:20:10 * jgarzik kicks xchat
1896 2014-06-23 21:20:18 <jgarzik> this is the deepest I've ever been into C++ :)
1897 2014-06-23 21:20:36 <jgarzik> my C++ looks like it was written by a C coder
1898 2014-06-23 21:20:47 <kazcw> just like all of bitcoin-core, lol
1899 2014-06-23 21:20:48 <cfields> jgarzik: your code definitely looks like it was written by a C pro
1900 2014-06-23 21:20:51 <cfields> haha
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1902 2014-06-23 21:21:05 <jgarzik> RE int64_t there is no debate ;-) I own a 64-bit processor, therefore, pass-by-value.
1903 2014-06-23 21:21:22 <sipa> kazcw: serialize.h was definitely NOT written by a C coded
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1905 2014-06-23 21:21:49 <gmaxwell> kazcw: so I guess we don't have to wonder if you've ever read the code or not.
1906 2014-06-23 21:21:55 <cfields> yea.. the serialization template/polymorphic stuff is a very weird hybrid
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1908 2014-06-23 21:23:11 <cfields> jgarzik: one more nit, then. much of the getJsonToken could be rewritten much more simply with std strings and algorithms
1909 2014-06-23 21:23:32 <cfields> i didn't mention because i'm not sure if there's any real gain, readability or performance wise
1910 2014-06-23 21:23:57 <jgarzik> being a C coder, I like the _basics_ of C++. C with guard rails. ;p Simple classes, obvious operator replacements and data+code encapsulation. Basic OOP. The advanced shit always eats gobs of memory at compile and runtime, renders error messages unreadable, and in general makes my C coder dogbrain miserable.
1911 2014-06-23 21:24:24 <cfields> jgarzik: to be fair, don't equate c++ with g++
1912 2014-06-23 21:24:36 <cfields> jgarzik: if you get deep into c++land, clang can be your savior
1913 2014-06-23 21:24:39 <sipa> if i could choose one feature of C++ to have in C, it would be RAII destructors
1914 2014-06-23 21:24:46 <jgarzik> +1
1915 2014-06-23 21:24:53 <jgarzik> cfields, yeah, fair point
1916 2014-06-23 21:25:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea...
1917 2014-06-23 21:25:27 <jgarzik> RAII is so damned nice. Sometimes I go around telling people "I hate C++, but it makes writing secure software a bit easier"
1918 2014-06-23 21:25:30 <gmaxwell> Rust does that well.
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1920 2014-06-23 21:25:46 <cfields> jgarzik: i almost always avoided templates entirely, thought they were the spawn of satan. Turns out, g++ just wasn't helpful for shit.
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1922 2014-06-23 21:26:27 <jgarzik> cfields, I also harbor prejudices from the early C++ days, when identical templates could not be merged at link time etc.
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1924 2014-06-23 21:26:50 <jgarzik> most of that super-ugly stuff has gotten slowly fixed over the years
1925 2014-06-23 21:27:02 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well you can't always count on it now, pretty awful when you realize your code has gone to 20x the cache size because some trivial change broke the merging.
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1928 2014-06-23 21:27:10 <gmaxwell> it's certantly more robust than it used to be.
1929 2014-06-23 21:27:20 <cfields> jgarzik: imo c++11 makes templates actually usable. It's a shame that those prevailing attitudes probably won't allow it to flourish
1930 2014-06-23 21:27:32 <cfields> which is totally fair, i absolutely get why.
1931 2014-06-23 21:28:07 <sipa> cfields: no, but c++14 will make them usable :)
1932 2014-06-23 21:28:18 * gmaxwell flips the chart on the wall: 0 days since a language discussion in #bitcoin-dev
1933 2014-06-23 21:28:26 <cfields> sipa: constexpr as intended?
1934 2014-06-23 21:28:29 <cfields> heh
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1936 2014-06-23 21:29:41 <sipa> cfields: hmm, maybe it's a feature post-c++14: contracts you can define that template arguments must satisfy, so you can give meaningful error messages if they fail
1937 2014-06-23 21:30:05 <cfields> oh, concepts?
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1939 2014-06-23 21:30:20 <sipa> right!
1940 2014-06-23 21:30:29 <cfields> yea, iirc that got booted again
1941 2014-06-23 21:30:37 <sipa> :(
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1944 2014-06-23 21:31:28 <kazcw> what c++ really needs is modules, it's a shame they're still in a "sometime" timeframe. maybe I'd feel differently if I had a faster box to compile on, but the whole assemble-everything-into-one-huge-ball-of-text compilation model is nuts, especially with non-trivial template usage.
1945 2014-06-23 21:32:08 <cfields> sipa: SFINAE goes a long way towards that, though
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1948 2014-06-23 21:32:20 <cfields> once you can wrap your head around the concept
1949 2014-06-23 21:32:35 dgenr8 has quit (Quit: dgenr8)
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1951 2014-06-23 21:33:24 <sipa> crazy
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1961 2014-06-23 21:42:07 <jgarzik> Linus Torvalds was always zealous about _using_ the type systems, rather than subverting it with void* and casts and such. The Linux kernel is very OOP, even though it is C.
1962 2014-06-23 21:42:16 <jgarzik> There is even (gasp) inheritance.
1963 2014-06-23 21:43:50 <cfields> jgarzik: it's always eye-opening to me to enable all cast warnings, so you see what's going on behind the scenes
1964 2014-06-23 21:44:27 <cfields> and 10x as much with c++. My rule of thumb is that whenever I get my code written the way I like it, it's probably copying classes/structs 2x more than I realize.
1965 2014-06-23 21:44:49 <jgarzik> In C, if you work with the compiler's alias analysis rather than against it has a lot of benefits. CPU pipelines stay more full. Other positives.
1966 2014-06-23 21:47:02 MKCoin has joined
1967 2014-06-23 21:47:15 <cfields> jgarzik: i always enjoy reading Linus' aliasing+atomicity rants. I've learned lots from those.
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1971 2014-06-23 21:49:10 <jgarzik> C is useful in that I may mentally map between CPU behavior and source language. C++, I cannot really. No clue how asm looks after the meat grinder of RTTI, virtual functions, templates, ...
1972 2014-06-23 21:49:22 <cfields> this one, iirc: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.cross-arch/21546
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1974 2014-06-23 21:52:11 * jgarzik wrote the i386 asm generating backend for Linus's [imo one of the best in the world] C parser: https://sparse.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page Linus spent a lot of time on the type system side of things.
1975 2014-06-23 21:52:56 <sipa> some C++ variant that has absolutely no implicit copying/allocation would be nice (and probably very cumbersome to use...)
1976 2014-06-23 21:53:02 <jgarzik> Linus and Al Viro are really two of the top C language experts in the world. It is interesting to watch how that works out in the Linux kernel.
1977 2014-06-23 21:53:27 <sipa> no assignment operator, copy constructor, ...
1978 2014-06-23 21:53:32 <cfields> sipa: you can come close to managing that with c++11
1979 2014-06-23 21:53:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: rust also avoids expensive hidden operations (like copying).
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1981 2014-06-23 21:53:51 <jgarzik> interesting
1982 2014-06-23 21:54:00 <cfields> sipa: define a move constructor and delete copy/ctor
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1984 2014-06-23 21:54:16 <sipa> cfields: yup; i want those in bitcoind :)
1985 2014-06-23 21:54:25 <cfields> see std::unique_ptr for a good example there
1986 2014-06-23 21:54:26 <sipa> but blah blah support old compilers blah
1987 2014-06-23 21:54:41 <sipa> i'm very familiar with unique_ptr :)
1988 2014-06-23 21:54:47 <jgarzik> cfields, A lot of your criticisms, while valid, are unfortunately artifacts copied from existing bitcoin code :(
1989 2014-06-23 21:55:04 <gmaxwell> In general C++ can do * if you use the right subset. Actually using the right subset is hard, I dunno why there aren't better lint tools as parts of the compiler so you can formally subset the language.
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1991 2014-06-23 21:55:37 <sipa> google c++ code is often very explicit about ownershp of allocated objects, and unique_ptr helps a lot :)
1992 2014-06-23 21:55:37 <jgarzik> cfields, e.g. I did a cut-n-paste of TxToJSON, then changed each line to work with UniValue. Original code nutty and silly logic is preserved ;p
1993 2014-06-23 21:55:45 <cfields> jgarzik: heh. I just gave it a context-less view. feel free to ignore
1994 2014-06-23 21:56:05 <jgarzik> cfields, well I don't want to ignore because they are valid :)
1995 2014-06-23 21:56:13 <jgarzik> cfields, engineer OCD
1996 2014-06-23 21:56:13 <cfields> jgarzik: i didn't see any actual bugs, iirc. just style stuff
1997 2014-06-23 21:56:28 <cfields> except for maybe the unchecked value, but i think my comment on that one was wrong anyway
1998 2014-06-23 21:56:35 <jgarzik> valid crapola, just not -my- crapola
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2002 2014-06-23 21:58:11 <cfields> jgarzik: core_read.cpp:57. Looks like if the token is exactly "0x", that might get nasty.
2003 2014-06-23 21:59:13 <jgarzik> cfields, I think if the user does that and breaks something, they get to keep both pieces. Doctor Says Don't Do That.
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2005 2014-06-23 22:00:12 <jgarzik> cfields, if you want to clean that up in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/script_tests.cpp#L40 then I'll merge it into my branch
2006 2014-06-23 22:00:44 <jgarzik> sipa, where is your merge-github-pr-and-sign script again?
2007 2014-06-23 22:00:55 <sipa> jgarzik: contrib/devtools
2008 2014-06-23 22:01:08 <cfields> ok
2009 2014-06-23 22:01:34 <cfields> jgarzik: i suppose/hope the tests will tell me if i break it? :)
2010 2014-06-23 22:02:18 <jgarzik> cfields, no, because that would be meta
2011 2014-06-23 22:02:40 <jgarzik> cfields, it is currently used by the tests themselves, to generate test data
2012 2014-06-23 22:03:21 <jgarzik> cfields, it had obvious utility outside of test, so I grabbed it and moved it to a lib
2013 2014-06-23 22:03:48 <jgarzik> cfields, that's how you can build english-esque scripts on the bitcoin-tx command line
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2015 2014-06-23 22:05:24 <cfields> jgarzik: ah, when reading over that, i somehow didn't notice that it was a test. Completely non-critical then ofc
2016 2014-06-23 22:05:33 <cfields> but i'm happy to spruce it up, if you'd prefer
2017 2014-06-23 22:05:59 <jgarzik> cfields, every time code is bug-fixed, a kitten goes home happy.
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2028 2014-06-23 22:11:58 <jgarzik> cfields, Currently it is only used for "compiling" (translating) dev-facing test data into a usable form. bitcoin-tx util expands that use to the user-facing command line.
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2054 2014-06-23 22:54:48 <dekalo> Hello, i'm trying to import a privkey into BitcoinJ using constructor ECKey(BigInt), with little success. I've created a new address with bitcoin-cli and got privKey in WIF:
2055 2014-06-23 22:54:55 <dekalo> # bitcoin-cli dumpprivkey mhj3wMCdpLFWgZ1tW7fgovTLFYCz94vr7R
2056 2014-06-23 22:54:55 <dekalo> cRC9LF9Vv8fgScffFVu2hgYR8ZGCYEuFoXR8Ya5TbDDdMabAeHcr
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2058 2014-06-23 22:55:05 <dekalo> Now i've done a procedure to got the privKey unencoding base58, removing checksum, prepending 0xef byte and postpending 0x01 byte. Here's the privKey that i've got: 300f349bb6026eb12e9df85e576c8ed16afb32b6b822dc35618ee2d9960357a9.
2059 2014-06-23 22:55:20 <dekalo> Now i've tried to "import" it in an ECKey element with its constructor ECKey(BigInteger) and effectively key.getPrivBytes() are the same of the key obtained in from the previous function, but when I print pubKey and address I got something different from what I expect: addr: mqM1YVKcJcaXhjNChhTgARcVbto6rpRjbq / pubk: 042d7da05012c825de1708c1db434d5d7c0a799136241269bfb7161cf8f4ab6e7da2bd21ba19875f12c6e068b1a27ed09ae53aae0ccde8f125c1fa
2060 2014-06-23 22:55:20 <dekalo> a3014255c9f2
2061 2014-06-23 22:56:01 <dekalo> kindly someone can help me figure out where am I wrong?
2062 2014-06-23 22:56:24 <dekalo> (i'm working in regtest)
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2074 2014-06-23 23:06:27 <jrick> dekalo: trying to do the same with go, you may want to check your private key http://sprunge.us/ejWH
2075 2014-06-23 23:06:31 <jrick> the one I have doesn't match
2076 2014-06-23 23:07:06 <jrick> also s/Printf/Println/
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2079 2014-06-23 23:08:14 <dekalo> sorry, but I dont know what is go
2080 2014-06-23 23:08:16 <dekalo> :D
2081 2014-06-23 23:08:27 <jrick> sure, just saying I can't get the same privkey
2082 2014-06-23 23:08:32 <jrick> so I'd check that you did that correctly
2083 2014-06-23 23:08:45 <dekalo> mm
2084 2014-06-23 23:08:59 <sipa> it may just be that encodings are broken for regtest
2085 2014-06-23 23:09:11 <sipa> it's not really designed for user-interfacing things
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2089 2014-06-23 23:12:28 <jrick> dekalo: and I get the same address back so my privkey is correct http://sprunge.us/eKfC
2090 2014-06-23 23:12:44 <dekalo> jrick, i've pasted the wrong WIF, it was cPC85SgytJq8iwA43EuEbNP8kXB4KixSjTCNWqTX6LXKAYMAgWMu, sorry
2091 2014-06-23 23:13:01 <dekalo> but ok, is the same
2092 2014-06-23 23:13:20 <netg_> Luke-Jr: http://satoshilabs.com/news/2014-06-22-wanted-independent-trezor-code-reviewers/
2093 2014-06-23 23:13:36 <netg_> sorry wrong window
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2098 2014-06-23 23:17:31 <jrick> dekalo: your second WIF string gets me the address mxHCMuWdz2pxkaxhwXhs5NDXAhfW6McdVD
2099 2014-06-23 23:18:22 <jrick> http://sprunge.us/bUfg
2100 2014-06-23 23:18:33 <sipa> please just try testnet
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2102 2014-06-23 23:18:55 <jrick> iirc testnet3 shares the encoding magics
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2104 2014-06-23 23:19:45 <sipa> maybe
2105 2014-06-23 23:19:50 <sipa> maybe in some implementations
2106 2014-06-23 23:20:13 <dekalo> ok sipa
2107 2014-06-23 23:20:27 <dekalo> jrick, that's my situation http://sprunge.us/JVOE
2108 2014-06-23 23:21:35 <dekalo> sipa: now i try on testnet
2109 2014-06-23 23:21:57 <jrick> paste your wifToPrivKey
2110 2014-06-23 23:23:04 <dekalo> http://sprunge.us/UbgO
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2114 2014-06-23 23:24:19 <dekalo> we got the same privkey decoded, so I can think that mine works fine
2115 2014-06-23 23:25:16 <jrick> there's an extra byte in there if the key is compressed
2116 2014-06-23 23:25:24 <jrick> which you aren't checking and it's included in the private key bytes otherwise
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2118 2014-06-23 23:25:44 <dekalo> in line 6 i remove the first and the last byte
2119 2014-06-23 23:25:46 <dekalo> no?
2120 2014-06-23 23:26:05 <jrick> oh I see
2121 2014-06-23 23:26:16 <jrick> yeah but if the key is not compressed, now you lost a private key byte :)
2122 2014-06-23 23:26:31 <dekalo> is only a testing function, still not added, but thanks :)
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2125 2014-06-23 23:31:23 <mappum> when can i expect miners to be updated to the new p2sh IsStandard rule? (i don't even know if it's implemnted yet)
2126 2014-06-23 23:32:39 <sipa> it's not even in a release...
2127 2014-06-23 23:34:17 <mappum> well once it is, do pools usually update right away?
2128 2014-06-23 23:34:39 <sipa> not necessarily
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2134 2014-06-23 23:41:07 <dekalo> jrick, can you try to use ECKey() of bitcoinj to create the key and relative address, pubkey? use that privk e4afcb239b1fe4f0185777d8784c0a0fb460702be4df0f2057241beaecccfd69
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2136 2014-06-23 23:42:00 <jrick> I don't have java
2137 2014-06-23 23:42:07 <dekalo> ah ok
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2139 2014-06-23 23:43:00 <dekalo> maybe the problem is in the way that I import key
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2146 2014-06-23 23:47:00 <dekalo> problem found. By default ECKey compression is set to false
2147 2014-06-23 23:47:42 <dekalo> :)
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