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  51 2014-06-25 01:12:15 <Guest________> question about compressed Bitcoin addresses. anyone home?
  52 2014-06-25 01:12:55 <Guest________> sipa: ping
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  84 2014-06-25 02:04:22 <justanotheruser> Is this an accurate quote of Mike Hearn? "Mike Hearn interview quotes: "Progress on the bitcoin protocol has ground to a halt, complete halt. This is a crisis period for Bitcoin... Only Gavin is working on upgrades""
  85 2014-06-25 02:06:14 <justanotheruser> I think the biggest problem with the quote is that lack of change in the protocol isn't a crisis
  86 2014-06-25 02:06:21 <justanotheruser> at least in the short term
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  91 2014-06-25 02:14:47 <phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, i believe it is accurate
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  99 2014-06-25 02:29:14 <justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: is it a problem though?
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 103 2014-06-25 02:41:38 <CodeShar_> wumpus: have you had a chance to play around with CoinVault yet?
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 114 2014-06-25 02:54:44 <phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, no, indeed the premise that gavin is the only one working on the protocol is beyond ridiculous
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 121 2014-06-25 03:00:11 <jcorgan> where did those quotes come from
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 128 2014-06-25 03:07:20 <dsnrk> jcorgan: source seems to be https://epicenterbitcoin.com/eb-025/
 129 2014-06-25 03:07:46 <dsnrk> jcorgan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coj3uBrnxIg
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 132 2014-06-25 03:09:09 <dsnrk> don't know the timecode.
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 134 2014-06-25 03:09:58 <jcorgan> tks
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 137 2014-06-25 03:11:20 <jcorgan> until i hear what was said in context in the interview, i'll assume this is sensationalism
 138 2014-06-25 03:12:20 <phantomcircuit> jcorgan, his proposal for bad additions to the protocol was largely rejected
 139 2014-06-25 03:12:43 <dsnrk> proposing that bitcoin is tied to people's passworts, what?
 140 2014-06-25 03:12:57 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, yeah exactly
 141 2014-06-25 03:13:01 <jcorgan> yeah, there was some controversy over that
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 143 2014-06-25 03:13:13 <phantomcircuit> jcorgan, "some"
 144 2014-06-25 03:13:31 <dsnrk> yeah that's the moment I get my pitchFORK out
 145 2014-06-25 03:13:56 <dsnrk> my passport doesn't even have NFC
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 147 2014-06-25 03:14:29 <jcorgan> i finally had to get a new passport with the NFC, but for some reason now it doesn't work at airports :)
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 151 2014-06-25 03:15:59 <dsnrk> receiver pays fees sounds like a terrible idea too. a sensible person would save up all their dust and make some poor fool pay $15 in fees.
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 156 2014-06-25 03:18:06 <jcorgan> well, he's a lot smarter than I am in many things, so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt even if I disagree with him, sometimes strongly
 157 2014-06-25 03:22:37 <dsnrk> jcorgan: ah the quote is at 39:30 in the soundcloud audio stuff.
 158 2014-06-25 03:22:56 <dsnrk> it's sort of not taken out of context at all.
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 203 2014-06-25 05:05:33 <phantomcircuit> sipa, any opinion on jgarziks comment re CMutableTransaction ?
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 214 2014-06-25 05:23:16 <sipa> phantomcircuit: agree it is overkill, but i like "obviously always correct", and it could some day allow a more efficient in memory representation (single malloced blod or so)
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 217 2014-06-25 05:34:16 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that's what i figured
 218 2014-06-25 05:34:17 <phantomcircuit> ok
 219 2014-06-25 05:34:24 <phantomcircuit> also
 220 2014-06-25 05:34:28 <phantomcircuit> got tired of waiting for syncs
 221 2014-06-25 05:34:32 <phantomcircuit> added my own checkpoint
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 315 2014-06-25 07:39:02 <arioBarzan> how can I sign only part of a transaction? Mike Hearn says the protocol allows one to partially sign a tx, according to his explanation for lighthouse project.
 316 2014-06-25 07:40:24 <sipa> that has nothing to do with the protocol
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 318 2014-06-25 07:41:03 <sipa> if you need multiple people signing, they can each just sign whatever they can
 319 2014-06-25 07:41:38 <sipa> but as far as the protocol is concerned, the transaction is totally invalid until it is fully signed
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 337 2014-06-25 08:01:15 <arioBarzan> sipa: to partially sign a tx, should I use Hashtype SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY ?
 338 2014-06-25 08:01:42 spinza has joined
 339 2014-06-25 08:02:42 <arioBarzan> I want to sign one specific input with 1mBTC value and the tx has only one output with 2mBTC value.
 340 2014-06-25 08:04:06 tarantillo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 341 2014-06-25 08:04:26 tarantillo_ has joined
 342 2014-06-25 08:05:01 <arioBarzan> I am looking for a way that two persons sign only their specific inputs without knowing where the other 1mBTC comes from?
 343 2014-06-25 08:05:16 implr has joined
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 345 2014-06-25 08:06:20 <arioBarzan> it is said in bitcoin.it/wiki that Hashtype SIGHASH_SINGLE  "sign one of the outputs-- I don't care where the other outputs go".
 346 2014-06-25 08:06:34 <arioBarzan> and Hashtype SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY "Let other people add inputs to this transaction, I don't care where the rest of the bitcoins come from."
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 348 2014-06-25 08:07:21 <arioBarzan> could anyone elaborate a little further on this matter?
 349 2014-06-25 08:07:34 <sipa> sounds like you want sighash anyonecanpay
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 359 2014-06-25 08:20:06 <wumpus> lol @ #4378, gmaxwell keeps trying to sneak a full firewall into bitcoind
 360 2014-06-25 08:21:46 <wumpus> sipa: pretty confusing, people use 'the protocol' to refer to the P2P protocol as well as the blockchain 'protocol' interchangably
 361 2014-06-25 08:23:04 <sipa> neither of both has something like a partially signed transaction, still
 362 2014-06-25 08:23:34 <wumpus> oh, sure...
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 376 2014-06-25 08:46:26 <arioBarzan> script.cpp @ #1021 CTransactionSignatureSerializer says that // In case of SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY, only the input being signed is serialized. Does this mean that SignatureHash() would return hash of a txTmp which only covers the specified input when the hashtype has the SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY flag set?
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 379 2014-06-25 08:47:52 <sipa> yes
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 431 2014-06-25 09:43:03 <rubensayshi> how is the blocktime in the block header validated? could you just try to mine a block with a blocktime of +2hrs, or +1week (I recall running in some 2hr constraint somewhere but I can't find it anymore) ?
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 433 2014-06-25 09:46:02 <rubensayshi> ah https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2239 so it can't be > 2hrs in the future when it's broadcasted or otherwise no node will accept/relay it?
 434 2014-06-25 09:46:24 <jcorgan> correct
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 436 2014-06-25 09:48:08 <rubensayshi> so a miningpool could just always +2hrs just for laughs of blockexplorers showing weird block timestamps :) ?
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 444 2014-06-25 10:01:42 <damethos> rubensayshi, do that and i will hunt you down :p
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 448 2014-06-25 10:02:04 <rubensayshi> wish I was a pool operator :P
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 527 2014-06-25 11:20:39 <hearn> good afternoon
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 531 2014-06-25 11:23:05 <kiddouk> good afternoon
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 533 2014-06-25 11:23:34 <kiddouk> Anyone here playing with Obelisk server from unsystem ?
 534 2014-06-25 11:23:44 ralphtheninja has joined
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 536 2014-06-25 11:24:25 <kiddouk> Looks like it's leaking memory and unresponsive at times. If anyone has experience with it. Would be happy to ask a couple of questions (already on #darkwallet chan btw)
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 541 2014-06-25 11:30:24 <hearn> afaik it's still under heavy development. i don't recall seeing anyone here discuss it much so #darkwallet is your best bet
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 571 2014-06-25 12:10:36 <wumpus> not sure where obelisk development discussion mainly happens, #darkwallet doesn't see that much traffic either
 572 2014-06-25 12:12:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: do you plan to merge those PRs you commented on soon (when comments addressed)? rather avoid making the requested changes then it sitting months and needing rebasing if possible
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 574 2014-06-25 12:12:41 <wumpus> I suppose that the reason that they're still open is that they're planned to be merged
 575 2014-06-25 12:12:55 <wumpus> however, the comments were never fixed
 576 2014-06-25 12:13:01 <Luke-Jr> yes, eventually..
 577 2014-06-25 12:13:04 <wumpus> so they linger
 578 2014-06-25 12:13:48 <Luke-Jr> I tend to hit them every few months - but if it can be merged sooner, I can make it a priority to get to them
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 581 2014-06-25 12:15:14 <wumpus> well as I see it there is no one screaming NACK, so they should be merged, and sooner is better (it's annoying to have them open for that long)
 582 2014-06-25 12:16:27 <Luke-Jr> ok, I'll put them on my priority todos then
 583 2014-06-25 12:16:33 <wumpus> and after all that time I don't really expect anyone to suddenly come in and go THIS IS A BAD IDEA either :p
 584 2014-06-25 12:19:03 <wumpus> people please review https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1583 and  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1816 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1647
 585 2014-06-25 12:19:11 <wumpus> would be nice to merge some features that would be useful for miners
 586 2014-06-25 12:23:47 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2834 would be very useful also
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 597 2014-06-25 12:33:52 <wumpus> codeshark reported a problem with that, did you ever figure out what went wrong there?
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 600 2014-06-25 12:35:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sounds to me just like the usual RPC limitations?
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 602 2014-06-25 12:35:40 <wumpus> that's very possible
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 688 2014-06-25 14:36:09 <dipendra> can anybody  help me in finding  the coin transfer fee which is charged by coin network on transferring from one address to another one
 689 2014-06-25 14:36:18 <dipendra> I observed dogecoin which sometimes applied 1 doge or 2 or 3 or null
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 694 2014-06-25 14:41:06 <wumpus> dipendra: the network doesn't add any fee
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 705 2014-06-25 14:53:47 <GAit> what set of patches/fork is best for detecting double spends the quickest? Peter's?
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 708 2014-06-25 14:57:00 <petertodd> GAit: mine rejects uneconomical double-spends, which is a whole class of them
 709 2014-06-25 14:57:16 <GAit> ddos protection?
 710 2014-06-25 14:57:44 <petertodd> GAit: for instance, a bunch of doublespends bitzillions was being hit with strongly indicate that either they or one or more miners was being sybil attacked - my replace-by-fee code was rejecting them entirely
 711 2014-06-25 14:58:43 Swadq has joined
 712 2014-06-25 14:59:36 <petertodd> GAit: here's an implementation that would actually work and not be ddos vulnerable: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3883#issuecomment-45543370
 713 2014-06-25 14:59:54 <petertodd> GAit: er, I mean, my comment could be turned into an implementation
 714 2014-06-25 15:00:04 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
 715 2014-06-25 15:00:13 <petertodd> GAit: that actual pull-req doesn't work due to the dos protection
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 718 2014-06-25 15:04:47 <GAit> can't double spends be bounded?
 719 2014-06-25 15:04:54 <GAit> i mean ignore after a few
 720 2014-06-25 15:05:56 <petertodd> GAit: right, the problem is that the size of the double spend tx can be far larger than the size of the original tx, e.g. 250 bytes vs 100,000 bytes, even worse when you remember that any tx < 1MB is valid
 721 2014-06-25 15:06:20 <petertodd> GAit: that's why I suggested relaying just scriptSigs in my comment
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 723 2014-06-25 15:09:01 <GAit> ok, if it gets widely used, for the time being our best bet is add a bunch of replace-by-fee nodes knowing that they can be dossed and therefore the double spends detection is purely best effort (well it always is given miners can avoid propagating some tx they are adding to a block)
 724 2014-06-25 15:09:26 <GAit> or is this the wrong way of thinking about it?
 725 2014-06-25 15:09:29 daybyter has joined
 726 2014-06-25 15:09:56 <petertodd> GAit: well, see replace-by-fee can't be DoS'd because because each replacement has to pay for the bandwidth it consumes as a delta fee increase
 727 2014-06-25 15:09:57 Chief_Panda has joined
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 729 2014-06-25 15:10:19 <petertodd> GAit: of course, that assumes miners are using it :)
 730 2014-06-25 15:11:13 <daybyter> GAit: my skype nick is daybyter
 731 2014-06-25 15:11:20 <petertodd> but yeah, overall detecting double-spends is very dodgy business - that double-spends patch is completely ineffective if your attacker is sending non-standards to eligius for instance
 732 2014-06-25 15:14:27 stuntkite has joined
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 735 2014-06-25 15:15:34 <GAit> petertodd: fair enough, thought so. as I said, best effort sounds reasonable
 736 2014-06-25 15:15:41 analogmind_work has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 737 2014-06-25 15:16:23 <petertodd> GAit: well, best effort has a track record of encouraging people to use Bitcoin in ways that later lead to them losing a lot of money...
 738 2014-06-25 15:16:45 <GAit> i think for the time being we are adding simple detection by the mare difference detected in a block and what we remember seeing. Will investigate more your branch and use that to add more information as we detect some double spends although we'll make sure people know this is not to be relied on
 739 2014-06-25 15:16:50 <dgenr8> petertodd: mining non-standard double-spends can be detected easily after the fact though.  Eligius mined a 2BTC double-spend this morning.  http://bit.ly/1hR8S7s I haven't checked whether it was non-standard.
 740 2014-06-25 15:17:01 <GAit> ok so are you suggesting we don't even show double spend in the UI ?
 741 2014-06-25 15:17:16 <petertodd> dgenr8: and what are you going to do with that info? sue them?
 742 2014-06-25 15:17:45 <dgenr8> petertodd: just publish it
 743 2014-06-25 15:18:18 <petertodd> GAit: it's a hard choice. I'd show the double-spends in the UI, but also implement an attempt undo button to give users the right impression about the security properties of the system
 744 2014-06-25 15:18:29 <petertodd> dgenr8: so you want a witch hunt?
 745 2014-06-25 15:18:42 stuntkite has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 746 2014-06-25 15:18:43 <GAit> undo as in increase fee?
 747 2014-06-25 15:18:46 <GAit> wait
 748 2014-06-25 15:18:50 <GAit> undo?
 749 2014-06-25 15:18:50 <petertodd> GAit: yup
 750 2014-06-25 15:19:05 <petertodd> GAit: well, I mean, both are good, but "attempt undo" gives users the right impressions
 751 2014-06-25 15:19:13 DougieBot5000 has joined
 752 2014-06-25 15:19:40 * dgenr8 notes that that pattern of respends against dice sites has changed greatly since the discussion has become more visible
 753 2014-06-25 15:19:50 <petertodd> dgenr8: how so?
 754 2014-06-25 15:20:17 <dgenr8> petertodd: the rapid-fire ones stopped completely in late may
 755 2014-06-25 15:20:32 <petertodd> dgenr8: define "rapid-fire"
 756 2014-06-25 15:21:08 tjopper1 has joined
 757 2014-06-25 15:21:26 <dgenr8> 1 per minute or so
 758 2014-06-25 15:21:30 A has quit (an!~Alan@173.218.21.139|Remote host closed the connection)
 759 2014-06-25 15:21:44 <dgenr8> i'll construct a link that highlights that time period
 760 2014-06-25 15:22:10 <wumpus> http://www.coindesk.com/mike-hearn-underfunding-leaving-bitcoin-development-crisis/    I wouldn't exactly say that nothing is happen in bitcoin core development
 761 2014-06-25 15:22:29 AssimNao has joined
 762 2014-06-25 15:22:36 <AssimNao> hey
 763 2014-06-25 15:22:51 <AssimNao> I'm looking for some help, is it possible ?
 764 2014-06-25 15:23:03 <sipa> not without knowing what the problem is
 765 2014-06-25 15:23:13 <AssimNao> x)
 766 2014-06-25 15:23:29 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 767 2014-06-25 15:23:29 <petertodd> dgenr8: well yeah, dice sites implemented countermeasures that made the doublespends less profitable - dice sites are in a particularly good situation there because of the nature of the doublespends they're trying to defend against
 768 2014-06-25 15:23:31 <AssimNao> lol I would like to know how to launch a network internally..
 769 2014-06-25 15:23:47 <Apocalyptic> hearn is quitting ?
 770 2014-06-25 15:23:50 <petertodd> dgenr8: I mean, I've been helping one of those sites out...
 771 2014-06-25 15:23:57 <AssimNao> on testnet.
 772 2014-06-25 15:24:12 <AssimNao> I can mine bitcoin on a testnet internally right ?
 773 2014-06-25 15:24:19 <hearn> hmm?
 774 2014-06-25 15:24:34 <AssimNao> hmm ?
 775 2014-06-25 15:24:44 <hearn> Apocalyptic summoned me
 776 2014-06-25 15:24:47 <AssimNao> I create a new genesis block on bitcoin and compile.
 777 2014-06-25 15:24:50 <petertodd> AssimNao: you know about regtest?
 778 2014-06-25 15:24:51 <AssimNao> I want mine it.
 779 2014-06-25 15:24:54 <AssimNao> Im asking how to ?
 780 2014-06-25 15:25:08 <Apocalyptic> hearn, sorry I misread wumpus' link
 781 2014-06-25 15:25:08 <petertodd> AssimNao: altcoins are OT here
 782 2014-06-25 15:25:09 <AssimNao> also look into it on cod.
 783 2014-06-25 15:25:16 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 784 2014-06-25 15:25:22 <AssimNao> petertodd, isnt altcoin. its bitcoin.
 785 2014-06-25 15:25:24 <AssimNao> :D
 786 2014-06-25 15:25:40 <hearn> wumpus: there's not very much going on given the rather large scale bitcoin operates at today. but this is not a new argument from me. i've been saying the same things for a while
 787 2014-06-25 15:25:44 <AssimNao> regtest whats the diff between ?
 788 2014-06-25 15:25:45 <dgenr8> petertodd: what was your solution to attacker only double-spending when he loses? anything other than wait for confirmation?
 789 2014-06-25 15:25:48 non2_ has joined
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 791 2014-06-25 15:26:29 <petertodd> dgenr8: you know how dice sites are now *not* using fixed addresses? that's a very important part of it
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 793 2014-06-25 15:26:58 <wumpus> hearn: but they are saying that there is almost nothing happening in bitcoin core development, I'm seeing it differently, there have never been as many contributors
 794 2014-06-25 15:27:41 <petertodd> dgenr8: if people adopt replace-by-fee, you can very easily make doublespending uneconomical, if they don't then you just need to avoid getting rejected by a subset of the miners
 795 2014-06-25 15:27:47 <hearn> you're comparing it with the historical state. i'm comparing it against other systems that manage $7.5 billion in value :)
 796 2014-06-25 15:27:49 <wumpus> hearn: it's going really fast and I have to spend loads of time reviewing and commenting on changes as well as working on my own patches, so it's unfair to say that it ground to a halt
 797 2014-06-25 15:27:54 <dgenr8> petertodd: yes, clearly.  although they can't be using them exclusively per link i just posted
 798 2014-06-25 15:28:01 <hearn> ah well i was talking specifically about the p2p protocol
 799 2014-06-25 15:28:03 <wumpus> hearn: that's unfair
 800 2014-06-25 15:28:05 <hearn> not the codebase as a whole
 801 2014-06-25 15:28:17 <dgenr8> s/using/avoiding/
 802 2014-06-25 15:28:26 <wumpus> maybe it's just coindesk that twisted your words
 803 2014-06-25 15:28:33 <petertodd> dgenr8: i must be blind, which link?
 804 2014-06-25 15:28:34 <wumpus> but this is really pissing me off
 805 2014-06-25 15:28:40 <dgenr8> petertodd: http://bit.ly/1hR8S7s
 806 2014-06-25 15:29:00 <hearn> no, i said that, but i was talking about the protocol itself. what current protocol upgrade projects are there? floating fees, maaku's utxo work, though that's some way from being finished and ...... that's about it
 807 2014-06-25 15:29:07 <hearn> i didn't mean to imply people aren't working hard
 808 2014-06-25 15:29:08 <petertodd> dgenr8: what do you mean by "can'
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 810 2014-06-25 15:29:15 <petertodd> "can't be using them exclusively"?
 811 2014-06-25 15:29:36 <hearn> meanwhile lots of people think that tx malleability is solved since february, even though we know it's not. and that's only one of many things we need.
 812 2014-06-25 15:29:38 <hearn> so this is what concerns me.
 813 2014-06-25 15:29:55 <GAit> hearn: but you don't know everyone working on bitcoin
 814 2014-06-25 15:30:00 <petertodd> hearn: we solved 95% of the problem of tx malleability
 815 2014-06-25 15:30:08 <dgenr8> petertodd: sorry for the terrible wording. I meant "aren't avoiding them entirely".
 816 2014-06-25 15:30:24 <wumpus> tx malleability as a problem was pretty much a red herring, and anyway it's being solved slowly but steadily
 817 2014-06-25 15:30:44 <petertodd> dgenr8: sorry, what do you mean by "them" there? you mean avoiding double-spends?
 818 2014-06-25 15:31:08 <hearn> i don't think it's a red herring, quite a few contract protocols require it to be fixed. but ok, i can pick many examples.
 819 2014-06-25 15:31:40 <GAit> hearn: we require it to be fixed and we are working on it
 820 2014-06-25 15:31:49 <dgenr8> petertodd: My point is simply that a huge 2BTC double-spend against dice crossed less than an hour ago, using one of the vanity addresses
 821 2014-06-25 15:31:52 <hearn> so who is implementing the non-malleable txns BIP? anyone?
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 823 2014-06-25 15:31:58 <wumpus> anyhow, these kinds of articales are not motivating me
 824 2014-06-25 15:32:00 <petertodd> dgenr8: remember, a dice site only needs to avoid some % of doublespends to make them uneconomical
 825 2014-06-25 15:32:05 <sipa> hearn: petertodd implemented part of it already
 826 2014-06-25 15:32:07 <GAit> hearn: so far we have been following the proposal by sipa
 827 2014-06-25 15:32:10 <petertodd> hearn: me
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 830 2014-06-25 15:32:22 <petertodd> sipa, hearn: now two parts in fact
 831 2014-06-25 15:32:41 <hearn> sipa's proposal was for a new tx version, no? i didn't see any patches implementing that as a new consensus rule
 832 2014-06-25 15:32:52 <sipa> hearn: one step at a time
 833 2014-06-25 15:32:58 <wumpus> this seems to have no other purpose than to drag bitcoin through the mud
 834 2014-06-25 15:33:02 non2_ is now known as non2
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 836 2014-06-25 15:33:57 <hearn> no, i don't think it's about dragging it through the mud. it's about highlighting the difference in resources being applied to different places. bitpay alone has a larger development team than all of bitcoin core. probably the same is true for coinbase. heck bitpay have a team larger than the full time paid team of Core just doing a multi-sig wallet app.
 837 2014-06-25 15:34:15 cbeams_ has joined
 838 2014-06-25 15:34:43 <hearn> the problem is not "existing people aren't working hard". the problem, as i see it, is that maybe by now we should have more like 10-15 people working on Core full time, if we're to fix all the ways we know it needs work
 839 2014-06-25 15:34:58 <hearn> that's not anyone's fault per se. just how it is.
 840 2014-06-25 15:35:02 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 841 2014-06-25 15:35:18 <GAit> hearn: some companies are dedicating resources to bitcoind and more will come i think
 842 2014-06-25 15:35:36 <gavinandresen> if it is anybody's fault, it is my fault-- I assumed SOMEBODY would spin up a "red hat for Bitcoin" by now.
 843 2014-06-25 15:35:53 <petertodd> we don't know what the right solutions are yet. for instance my two malleability fixes will act as a IsStandard() rule, and we'll learn more about whether or not we've missed something re: sipa's work
 844 2014-06-25 15:36:04 <gavinandresen> I keep hearing people saying they're going to do that, but my guess is all those project morph into something more profitable.
 845 2014-06-25 15:36:04 <wumpus> well to pick bitpay, they're contributing quite a lot to bitcoin open source... not per se to bitcoin core, but i think it's unfair to ignore everything that is happening except the core protocol changes
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 849 2014-06-25 15:36:14 <wumpus> insight, copay, etc...
 850 2014-06-25 15:36:30 Cory has joined
 851 2014-06-25 15:36:35 <petertodd> wumpus: IMO innovation with the protocol has never moved faster
 852 2014-06-25 15:36:55 <petertodd> wumpus: that we're seeing things like Reality Keys actually happen is really exciting
 853 2014-06-25 15:37:06 <hearn> ok, i'm not ignoring those other projects (mine is one!), i was talking specifically about the p2p protocol itself. talking about projects like chain pruning, better resource scheduling, anti-malleability, tx v3 stuff, more unit testing etc
 854 2014-06-25 15:37:19 <gavinandresen> petertodd: your opinion is wrong.  Innovation happened at breakneck speed when Satoshi was God.
 855 2014-06-25 15:37:23 <wumpus> unit tests are being added all the time
 856 2014-06-25 15:37:44 <petertodd> hearn: three out of my last five patches were unit tests...
 857 2014-06-25 15:37:51 <Jouke> hearn: maybe bitcoin-companies aren't big enough yet to free resources for bitcoin core?
 858 2014-06-25 15:37:53 <hearn> sigh. i didn't say "nobody is adding unit tests"
 859 2014-06-25 15:38:07 <wumpus> and hearn... why aren't YOU doing any of those things?
 860 2014-06-25 15:38:20 YoY has joined
 861 2014-06-25 15:38:20 <gavinandresen> hearn is trying to fix the meta-problem
 862 2014-06-25 15:38:26 <hearn> i said compared to the number of users and amount of money handled by the system, we're not where we IMHO should be.
 863 2014-06-25 15:38:41 <wumpus> that's completely arbitrary
 864 2014-06-25 15:40:06 <hearn> yes, it's an arbitrary judgement call,  just my personal opinion (it was an interview after all). look at it this way. in my old job tools that did nothing more exciting than displaying shopping links in a web page had much better test coverage than Core does. so it scares me a little that we have a multi-billion dollar system where large chunks of code have no coverage at all
 865 2014-06-25 15:40:08 <wumpus> you can always pick some things 'hey these things are not happening' and ignore the rest and then complain nothing is hapening
 866 2014-06-25 15:40:20 <hearn> i'm not complaining! i was explaining why i'm working on lighthouse
 867 2014-06-25 15:40:28 <hearn> as the article says, actually.
 868 2014-06-25 15:40:57 Sambler has joined
 869 2014-06-25 15:41:06 <hearn> let's assume for the sake of argument that i'm right (i might be wrong, but just for the sake of argument). so the problem is we need lots more people building decentralised infrastructure like Core, even though nobody owns it.
 870 2014-06-25 15:41:18 <hearn> i could say "companies should give more money to the Foundation" and so far that solution has worked OK, sort of
 871 2014-06-25 15:41:28 <Jouke> Why only companies?
 872 2014-06-25 15:41:40 <hearn> but the foundation has many priorities. not all its money is spent on development. plus people don't like the idea that the Foundation does all the work and calls all the shots.
 873 2014-06-25 15:41:41 <gavinandresen> Jouke: because individuals say they'll donate, but don't.
 874 2014-06-25 15:42:02 <hearn> so perhaps a better solution is to do fundraising using assurance contracts. then we can fundraise for a project like chain pruning, and the Foundation doesn't carry the can for everything.
 875 2014-06-25 15:42:05 <GAit> i do not think companies or people should pay a centralized entity, in that regard it makes more sense to allocate internal company resources to core
 876 2014-06-25 15:42:08 <wumpus> hearn: sure I agree lighthouse is a good thing
 877 2014-06-25 15:42:09 <GAit> which is what i think is more efficient
 878 2014-06-25 15:42:23 <hearn> so this is the solution i would like to experiment with, to help pay more people to do more things on Core
 879 2014-06-25 15:42:32 <hearn> until maybe one day it's as big as the kernel project is and you're the new linus ;)
 880 2014-06-25 15:42:33 * hearn ducks
 881 2014-06-25 15:43:03 * petertodd can't see Bitcoin Core ever becoming as large as Linux
 882 2014-06-25 15:43:10 <GAit> companies have incentives to build the features and the things that bitcoin misses.
 883 2014-06-25 15:43:19 <wumpus> petertodd: I wouldn't hope so, we should drop the 'core' again on the way at least :p
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 885 2014-06-25 15:44:07 <hearn> GAit: so where's your full time Core developer? ;)    we have lots of small companies that can't really afford to pay a full time guy to work on stuff that isn't directly profitable for them. lots of tiny companies that are VC funded or only slightly profitable, etc.  so the idea is, with an assurance contract, all these little companies can chip in maybe 5% each and everyone helps carry the load
 886 2014-06-25 15:44:09 <petertodd> GAit: yeah, all my pull-reqs are things I'm getting paid for. heck, gavin's recent IsStandard() relaxing patch is something I had already written
 887 2014-06-25 15:44:10 <wumpus> GAit: yes, although they usually have the incentive to do so in a centralized way, so they can act as gatekeepers and toll booths
 888 2014-06-25 15:44:42 <GAit> hearn: I have a developer fully on core, not fulltime at the moment, preparing patches and things in our repo for a PR tomorrow
 889 2014-06-25 15:44:46 <hearn> anyway, all this was discussed during the (very long i must say) interview with the podcast guys. the part where i said there weren't many people doing protocol upgrades was like 2 minutes worth
 890 2014-06-25 15:45:02 <hearn> GAit: ok, that's cool!
 891 2014-06-25 15:45:16 <petertodd> wumpus: it's a bit more complex than that: often otherwise centralized companies have incentives to have solid decentralized solutions too because their customers like them, something I'm seeing working with colored coins people for isntance
 892 2014-06-25 15:45:31 <GAit> petertodd: not only coloredcoins :)
 893 2014-06-25 15:46:02 <hearn> wumpus: actually I see coindesk quoted me as saying "almost nothing is happening on core development" which isn't what i said at all. sigh. not sure why it's so hard to transcribe an interview.
 894 2014-06-25 15:46:22 <wumpus> hearn: right, so they have twisted your words, I hoped so :0
 895 2014-06-25 15:46:24 <gavinandresen> GAit : tell your developer to let us know how the patch has been tested and if it is deployed already in your service, for me, at least, that carries a lot more weight than patches from Random People(tm)
 896 2014-06-25 15:46:44 <petertodd> GAit: what's the patch(s)?
 897 2014-06-25 15:46:51 <GAit> gavinandresen: sure thing
 898 2014-06-25 15:47:46 <GAit> petertodd: so far just come clean ups, the idea was to start doing some clean up and get some relationship going, process  etc and then move on to work on malleability
 899 2014-06-25 15:47:52 <GAit> there's a lot of work to be done
 900 2014-06-25 15:48:21 <petertodd> GAit: cool - for you guys for malleability I'd strongly suggest you look into developing a new CHECKSIG algorithm that doesn't sign txids
 901 2014-06-25 15:48:37 <petertodd> GAit: I did a bit of work sketching out that stuff BTW
 902 2014-06-25 15:48:46 <sipa> i'd do that as part of a larger 'script 2.0' plan
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 906 2014-06-25 15:49:11 <hearn> a "tx v3" project feels tractable to be in probably 2-3 months of full time work, assuming that includes development of more unit testing infrastructure
 907 2014-06-25 15:49:14 <petertodd> sipa: I think part of script 2.0 is going to be figuring out how to split up the gigantic project...
 908 2014-06-25 15:49:15 <hearn> *to me
 909 2014-06-25 15:49:36 <hearn> where tx v3 is just the anti-malleability BIP, and putting value under the signature hash, and the consensus stuff around enforcing it when enough miners opt in
 910 2014-06-25 15:49:38 <maaku> petertodd: split up what?
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 912 2014-06-25 15:49:52 <wumpus> petertodd: good point, huge projects where everything has to be first time right are almost impossible
 913 2014-06-25 15:50:01 <maaku> hearn: value in the signature is a hard-fork, no?
 914 2014-06-25 15:50:04 <petertodd> maaku: if we say everything is "script 2.0" and an entirely new system is all we're considering, we'll never do it
 915 2014-06-25 15:50:07 <petertodd> maaku: no
 916 2014-06-25 15:50:18 <sipa> it doesn't need to be a hard fork, no
 917 2014-06-25 15:50:23 <sipa> but maybe it should be
 918 2014-06-25 15:50:29 <hearn> maaku: yes txv3 has to be a hard fork. i think gavinandresen concluded a while ago we have to get over our fear of those. the block v2 fork didn't go too badly, and lots of what we need to do ends up being a fork
 919 2014-06-25 15:50:36 <hearn> ok by "has" i mean "should" indeed
 920 2014-06-25 15:50:41 <petertodd> wumpus: quite seriously we could get a *huge* amount of value with just CHECKSIG2 and CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY
 921 2014-06-25 15:50:43 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 922 2014-06-25 15:50:45 <maaku> how is that possible? the signatures need to validate with or without the value included in the sig...
 923 2014-06-25 15:50:46 <hearn> it might be a bit tricky to pull that off
 924 2014-06-25 15:50:57 <sipa> maaku: a OP_EVAL style structure
 925 2014-06-25 15:50:59 <hearn> maaku: each tx has a version number attached to it
 926 2014-06-25 15:51:02 <petertodd> maaku: you define a new CHECKSIG operator
 927 2014-06-25 15:51:04 <sipa> with different semantics inside
 928 2014-06-25 15:51:10 <hearn> maaku: so CHECKSIG can just know what the tx version is, and then change its behaviour on that
 929 2014-06-25 15:51:21 <hearn> oh, ok, seems we all have different ideas about how that would work :)
 930 2014-06-25 15:51:22 <maaku> ok that should really wait for script 2.0 though
 931 2014-06-25 15:51:37 <sipa> well bip62 can just be a soft fork
 932 2014-06-25 15:51:46 <sipa> i think everything else is a larger timeframe anyway
 933 2014-06-25 15:51:52 <hearn> "script 2.0" sounds like a ground up rethink. how about txv2 or txv3 == script 1.1 :)
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 935 2014-06-25 15:51:55 <maaku> hearn: if you do that, old nodes won't validate the transactions though, so it's a hard fork
 936 2014-06-25 15:51:59 <petertodd> sipa: and should be, there's no reason to be doing hardforks given damn near everything can be done as a softfork
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 938 2014-06-25 15:52:21 <sipa> especially for bip62, where the risk to clients is only when they opt in
 939 2014-06-25 15:52:24 <hearn> maaku: so, for a long time i've believed soft forks are bugs. ideally all consensus changes would be hard forks.
 940 2014-06-25 15:52:35 <hearn> maaku: the reason is, a soft fork effectively degrades a full node to SPV level security silently
 941 2014-06-25 15:52:46 <petertodd> sipa: also, there's a huge ecosystem of alternate implementations and libraries that need to be considered, softforks don't need those libraries to be updated
 942 2014-06-25 15:52:51 <gavinandresen> I'd vote for a script version 1.1.  That signs input amounts, refers to previous inputs by an immutable ID, and uses Schnorr for signatures.
 943 2014-06-25 15:53:01 <petertodd> gavinandresen: +1
 944 2014-06-25 15:53:09 <hearn> and i'm not a huge fan of silent security downgrades .... even if it might seem to make things a bit easier.
 945 2014-06-25 15:53:23 <gavinandresen> … (oh, and is P2SH only)
 946 2014-06-25 15:53:39 <hearn> gavinandresen: how easy is Schnorr signatures? they're a small adaptation of existing ecdsa code ?
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 948 2014-06-25 15:53:54 <sipa> yes, they're very easy
 949 2014-06-25 15:53:54 <wumpus> I suppose the Schnorr part was a joke? :)
 950 2014-06-25 15:54:08 <maaku> gavinandresen: there are *huge* improvements that can be made to script, if you are going just that far
 951 2014-06-25 15:54:26 <petertodd> maaku: yes, there's also huge risk if you change a lot of stuff
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 953 2014-06-25 15:54:32 <hearn> someone who has been messaging me about bloom filters on the forum said today that he was scared by the large number of coins stacked up in a small number of addresses. he said a birthday attack on a 160 bit hash is probably tractable, if you don't care which of the addresses you steal you could probably build special hardware to do it
 954 2014-06-25 15:54:32 <maaku> it's quite silly to have an intermediate hard-fork, or yet another template
 955 2014-06-25 15:54:50 <maaku> petertodd: i'm talking about making it provably safer (e.g. strong typing)
 956 2014-06-25 15:54:53 <sipa> hearn: birthday attack is irrelevant...
 957 2014-06-25 15:55:07 <wumpus> oh I was confused with Lamport signatures for some reaason
 958 2014-06-25 15:55:16 <petertodd> maaku: besides, we *know* that a small CHECKSIG change would be used, because we have the applications sitting right in front of us. more complex stuff we're not sure (IE, typing? so what?)
 959 2014-06-25 15:55:18 <gavinandresen> maaku: okey dokey.  We can't even seem to get consensus on UTXO commitments in blocks, don't know why you think we can get consensus on a complete overhaul of Script
 960 2014-06-25 15:55:25 <petertodd> gavinandresen: +1
 961 2014-06-25 15:55:46 <petertodd> notice how the only lack of consensus on a slightly upgraded CHECKSIG is coming from "but we're not going far enough!"
 962 2014-06-25 15:56:00 <sipa> yeah, i'm all for upgrading checksig
 963 2014-06-25 15:56:05 <hearn> maaku: if hard forks are easy, there's no real reason we can't get to script 2 by going script 1.1, script 1.2, script 1.3 etc
 964 2014-06-25 15:56:07 <sipa> but i think it'd be a waste of effort to only do that
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 966 2014-06-25 15:56:33 <petertodd> sipa: well, just remember you're specifically talking about political effort here, not technical
 967 2014-06-25 15:56:39 <sipa> yes
 968 2014-06-25 15:56:46 <hearn> sipa: his point was basically if the world can apparently make ASICs for dogecoin, then an ASIC that brute forces hash160 (if you don't care what you steal) doesn't seem so unthinkable actually
 969 2014-06-25 15:57:05 <gavinandresen> sipa: I think the sign-the-sum-of-inputs-amount is really important (SPV/hardware wallets), and we should have done that a couple years ago.
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 971 2014-06-25 15:57:33 <petertodd> I strongly suspect that the politics will be a lot saner if we don't make huge changes with lots of extra code in one go
 972 2014-06-25 15:57:37 <hearn> anyway, i doubt it's anything to think about
 973 2014-06-25 15:58:05 <Anduck> wouldn't it be better to target developing of the core system (scalability issues, dynamic fee structure, etc...) before different transaction types?
 974 2014-06-25 15:58:07 <hearn> i think there are two difficult parts to getting consensus for any change. one is code review/testing. this is usually the "easy" bit assuming good programmers. the hard part is the fundamental differences over project principles
 975 2014-06-25 15:58:30 <hearn> e.g. getutxo code is easy, but to what extent we care about pure-p2p SPV wallets is (apparently) not easy.
 976 2014-06-25 15:58:43 <hearn> on the other hand, maybe schnorr signatures or whatever the code is hard and needs careful review, but the principles is easy
 977 2014-06-25 15:58:44 <petertodd> well yeah, as I keep saying the code is the easiest part of bitcoin development
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 980 2014-06-25 16:00:03 <hearn> easy to say if you don't write much :p  the coding part is what sucks up the hours. ultimately, implementations are much more expensive than ideas especially in a project that attracts a lot of academic attention like this one.
 981 2014-06-25 16:00:11 <wumpus> hearn: the more cryptograpically difficult changes may be easier, as less people will have an opinion about them :p
 982 2014-06-25 16:00:29 <hearn> wumpus: yes the politics is easier and the code review is harder :)
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 986 2014-06-25 16:02:18 <hearn> Anduck: the "different transaction types" we're talking about are quite minor changes, at least anything that would get implemented. they're important for tidying up various irritating problems with the protocol, improving performance, things like that.
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 988 2014-06-25 16:02:29 <hearn> Anduck: and gavin is already working on dynamic fee structure
 989 2014-06-25 16:02:33 <wumpus> petertodd: from a high level the code may not be difficult, but there are just so many pesky details to worry about and things going on and that complicates things
 990 2014-06-25 16:02:46 <petertodd> hearn: if you're time is getting sucked up in writing code you're probably not analyzing what it's doing very carefully
 991 2014-06-25 16:02:47 <Anduck> hearn: alright
 992 2014-06-25 16:03:29 <petertodd> wumpus: that's exactly my point - I mean, when i say "the code" I mean writing it, not the huge amount of work that needs to be done ensuring it's the right code and it actually works
 993 2014-06-25 16:03:44 <hearn> the art is striking the right balance. insufficient analysis, you implement the wrong thing. too much and you get analysis paralysis where you spend all your time thinking about improbable what-ifs and your competitors zoom past you. projects have died for both reasons.
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 995 2014-06-25 16:04:06 <petertodd> wumpus: there's nothing in bitcoin where, for instance, the code uses complex algorithms or is difficult to understand what it's doing on the first order
 996 2014-06-25 16:04:21 <wumpus> petertodd: there are just so many different concerns
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 998 2014-06-25 16:04:42 <gavinandresen> I dunno, the simulated annealing algorithm in SelectCoins is… uh… non-trivial
 999 2014-06-25 16:04:51 <petertodd> wumpus: yup, and the second order effects of things tend to be highly subtle.
1000 2014-06-25 16:04:53 <wumpus> petertodd: each in themselves may not be rocket science, but it's the sheer volume that keeps you down
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1002 2014-06-25 16:05:04 <petertodd> gavinandresen: yes, and that's the most complex example in the entire codebase
1003 2014-06-25 16:05:14 <hearn> i remember first reading bitcoin when there was no documentation at all beyond the white paper
1004 2014-06-25 16:05:42 <hearn> i'd certainly have disagreed that there was nothing that's hard to understand. these days the code is so well explored and the documentation is much better, maybe that can now be argued.
1005 2014-06-25 16:06:01 <wumpus> petertodd: that's also why I'm trying to get rid of concerns (like the wallet) from bitcoin core, they just suck up a lot of attention without being our core focus
1006 2014-06-25 16:06:06 <petertodd> hearn: I learned how bitcoin worked by reading the codebase you know
1007 2014-06-25 16:06:13 <wumpus> hearn: it took me ages to reach the understanding of the code that I now have, and it's still not complete
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1010 2014-06-25 16:07:11 <petertodd> wumpus: we really should, and wallet code is something where there's going to be a lot of ways to do it that make sense. Heck, when i need input selection code, I usually just pick inputs at random. :P
1011 2014-06-25 16:07:19 <gavinandresen> …. and that's the real problem with lack of core development. It takes a long time for even a very experienced programmer to get up to speed where they can be productive
1012 2014-06-25 16:07:42 <GAit> gavinandresen: but so can be said of the kernel
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1014 2014-06-25 16:07:50 <gavinandresen> GAit: yes
1015 2014-06-25 16:08:03 <wumpus> petertodd can easily talk about carefully analysing things, but there are just so many moving parts and subtle interactions, and at least historically the code was not very well compartimentalised/modularized
1016 2014-06-25 16:08:22 <gavinandresen> That's why the Bitcoin Foundation was modeled on the Linux Foundation; similar issues.  We just don't have a Red Hat yet.
1017 2014-06-25 16:08:37 <wumpus> linux is very modular and well-organized, we have a long way to go :)
1018 2014-06-25 16:08:38 <petertodd> wumpus: it took me ages to understand how *badly* I understood the code. it looked so simple at first compared to other codebases I'd worked on
1019 2014-06-25 16:08:43 <GAit> a red hat is not enough either, you need red hat, suse, ibm
1020 2014-06-25 16:08:48 <sipa> petertodd: absolutely
1021 2014-06-25 16:08:53 <GAit> and eventually even microsoft contributing (i.e. amex or goldman sachs)
1022 2014-06-25 16:09:09 <sipa> you often don't realize how badly you understand code until you try to modify it :)
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1025 2014-06-25 16:09:29 <petertodd> sipa: and with bitcoin, even after you modify it you don't realize you've introduced a subtle exploit :)
1026 2014-06-25 16:09:45 <wumpus> right, there is also the pressure and fear of doing things wrong
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1029 2014-06-25 16:11:24 <GAit> well there should be that fear and more testing to protect ourselves as much as we can
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1031 2014-06-25 16:11:43 <hearn> i think gavinandresen is of the opinion that we should be less risk averse, actually
1032 2014-06-25 16:12:18 <hearn> though i noticed on reddit the other day, i saw people complaining about the "bitcoin is an experiment" line. didn't see that before.
1033 2014-06-25 16:12:20 <petertodd> GAit: what's hard is testing doesn't do a good job at uncovering security flaws
1034 2014-06-25 16:12:24 <waxwing> gavinandresen, simulated annealing is used in bitcoin!? is that to solve the knapsack problem?
1035 2014-06-25 16:12:28 <gavinandresen> yes, lots of parts of the code we could be less risk averse.  Including potentially-consensus-breaking-changes, in my opinion
1036 2014-06-25 16:12:32 <petertodd> GAit: e.g. gavin's fee estimation
1037 2014-06-25 16:12:43 <hearn> i wonder if our community is moving into a new area where people stop accepting the idea that bitcoin could become worthless tomorrow
1038 2014-06-25 16:12:47 <hearn> then it really _will_ be hard to change anything!
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1040 2014-06-25 16:13:03 <petertodd> gavinandresen: miners don't even want to upgrade to 0.9 in part because of fear of very expensive bugs, why make them even more afraid?
1041 2014-06-25 16:13:05 <SomeoneWeird> I think that's already happened
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1043 2014-06-25 16:13:19 <Jouke> +1
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1046 2014-06-25 16:14:14 <hearn> why? because stagnation will ensure bitcoin never goes mainstream in any meaningful way, at this point. our competitors don't stop moving forward because they're afraid of risk, they manage it
1047 2014-06-25 16:14:14 <gavinandresen> petertodd: benefits to them must outweigh the risks.  And if they stay behind, they will get left behind.
1048 2014-06-25 16:14:36 <gavinandresen> …as happened to that Russian mining pool that used to be the biggest (my forgetting-names-super-power is kicking in....)(
1049 2014-06-25 16:14:45 Cory has joined
1050 2014-06-25 16:14:47 <hearn> deepbit?
1051 2014-06-25 16:14:53 <gavinandresen> thats it!  deepbit!
1052 2014-06-25 16:14:55 <Zarutian> hearn: I am eyeing etherium if bitcoin stagnates too much
1053 2014-06-25 16:15:18 <hearn> Zarutian: when i say competitors, i'm usually thinking about existing financial networks actually.
1054 2014-06-25 16:15:23 <petertodd> gavinandresen: good luck on that... as much as I'd like new opcodes and other fun stuff, I've found in the past that we can find work arounds to avoid changing the Bitcoin protocol an astonishingly large % of the time
1055 2014-06-25 16:15:29 <hearn> Zarutian: IMHO our main competitors are not alt coins but rather credit cards
1056 2014-06-25 16:15:31 <wumpus> the thing is also that for a lot of people, bitcoin already does what it should do
1057 2014-06-25 16:15:42 <petertodd> heck, often those workarounds turn out to be better than our original ideas
1058 2014-06-25 16:15:45 <petertodd> wumpus: +1
1059 2014-06-25 16:15:59 <Jouke> hearn: do you have any idea what license lighthouse will get? It would be great to use at our local bitcoin foundation as well.
1060 2014-06-25 16:16:09 <Apocalyptic> what wumpus said
1061 2014-06-25 16:16:12 <wumpus> only a very small percentage of people really gets excited by, for example, what ethereum brings
1062 2014-06-25 16:16:34 <petertodd> wumpus: indeed, and that % can always use ethereum :)
1063 2014-06-25 16:16:38 <wumpus> cryptocurrency is still such a new thing in itself
1064 2014-06-25 16:16:39 <gavinandresen> wumpus: sure, but we have to make sure it KEEPS doing what they want it to do.  If transaction fees rise to $100 per transaction, I assure you people will not be happy.
1065 2014-06-25 16:17:11 <hearn> Jouke: it's going to be tricky. i want to use lighthouse to raise the funds to open source lighthouse. obviously that means, it can't start out being open source, it will have to be crippled/proprietary in some way. and then we'll see how interested people are in that. it may start out restricted to only my projects. i'm not sure yet ... still planning this part out.
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1067 2014-06-25 16:17:13 <wumpus> gavinandresen: sure
1068 2014-06-25 16:17:14 <gavinandresen> … so, in my opinion, we will need to give miners a much more efficient way to exchange very large blocks.
1069 2014-06-25 16:17:17 <petertodd> gavinandresen: there's *so* many solutions to that beyond changing the bitcoin protocol...
1070 2014-06-25 16:18:40 <gavinandresen> petertodd: okey dokey. I look forward to reading your whitepaper about that.
1071 2014-06-25 16:19:11 <petertodd> gavinandresen: thing is, I don't *need* to write One Whitepaper To Rule Them All about that, precisely because there's a diversity of solutions that other people are already working on
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1073 2014-06-25 16:19:37 <gavinandresen> petertodd: and that's a great thing.  I like diversity. I also like simplicity and hate hard-coded constants.....
1074 2014-06-25 16:19:44 <petertodd> heck, I strongly suspect in the end tree chains will go nowhere precisely because it's a One Solution to Rule Them All...
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1076 2014-06-25 16:20:09 <hearn> ... or because nobody implements it
1077 2014-06-25 16:20:28 <petertodd> gavinandresen: the 1MB blocksize is a fundemental economic parameter of the system. Don't be surprised that changing the definition of what Bitcoin is turns out to be controversial.
1078 2014-06-25 16:20:32 <hearn> i do rather disagree with your ideas about coding. the idea that all the effort is thinking and design and then the code practically writes itself does not match my experience on any real project.
1079 2014-06-25 16:20:50 <hearn> oh god. not block size limits again.
1080 2014-06-25 16:20:51 <petertodd> hearn: meh, we've worked on different types of projects with different risks involved
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1083 2014-06-25 16:21:43 <petertodd> anyway, discussing blocksize with gavin is a waste of time, later
1084 2014-06-25 16:22:02 <hearn> yes, i've worked on projects that could have broken all of google multiple times. i have worked on projects where a screwup is measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars a minute. i am guessing you have not.
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1087 2014-06-25 16:23:41 <GAit> is there #bitcoin-previous-job-horror-stories? i can contribute a bit too!
1088 2014-06-25 16:23:59 <waxwing> hearn, i worked in a company where the average tx size was ~ 1 million usd, and another where the average tx size was in the pennies. The biggest difference was in the former, the core software was basically never changed :)
1089 2014-06-25 16:24:23 <hearn> i think my nightmare software scenario would be HFT software
1090 2014-06-25 16:24:35 <hearn> the Knight Capital disaster was one for the history books ...
1091 2014-06-25 16:24:36 <waxwing> i also briefly worked as  a nuclear engineer. It was even worse there :) Codebase was 40 years old.
1092 2014-06-25 16:24:46 <Jouke> hearn: maybe we can work something out like our foundation raising money for the development of lighthouse and in return be able to use lighthouse for all the other projects at our foundation?
1093 2014-06-25 16:24:55 <hearn> haha ok. you win. nuclear meltdown is probably worse than google going offline for a few minutes
1094 2014-06-25 16:25:00 <waxwing> or maybe 30, possibly i exaggerate :)
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1096 2014-06-25 16:25:01 <hearn> er, scratch the "probably"
1097 2014-06-25 16:25:05 <daybyter> HFT...cool....
1098 2014-06-25 16:25:08 <AndersAA> Is Bitcoin a safety-critical project, where a bug could potentially cost someone's life? Should it be treated as such?
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1100 2014-06-25 16:25:17 <GAit> hearn: had friends telling me about how some HFT has moved to FPGA
1101 2014-06-25 16:25:27 <hearn> Jouke: Ah, you mean you get to use it if you pledge to the eventual open sourcing? neat idea ..... will definitely consider that model!
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1104 2014-06-25 16:26:05 <hearn> GAit: the last one i heard was the algorithms being run on the NIC firmware. so yeah i can believe FPGA
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1106 2014-06-25 16:26:24 <hearn> though i think there's an agility/performance tradeoff there. it's not all about speed, ability to adapt to new algorithms quickly also makes a big difference
1107 2014-06-25 16:26:25 <hearn> (from what i heard)
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1109 2014-06-25 16:27:04 <waxwing> 'Flash Boys' is an interesting read.
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1153 2014-06-25 17:16:54 <phantomcircuit> AndersAA, that is exactly how it should be treated
1154 2014-06-25 17:16:55 Alina-malina has joined
1155 2014-06-25 17:17:08 <phantomcircuit> if you consider the typical insurance value of a human life: 1-2m usd
1156 2014-06-25 17:17:19 <phantomcircuit> bitcoins is worth several thousand peoples lives
1157 2014-06-25 17:17:33 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1158 2014-06-25 17:17:34 <phantomcircuit> (although not really of course)
1159 2014-06-25 17:19:39 <andytoshi> can i translate a CWalletTx into a CCoins?
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1162 2014-06-25 17:22:55 <andytoshi> oh, i'm an idiot, the CCoins constructor does that
1163 2014-06-25 17:23:42 Alina-malina has joined
1164 2014-06-25 17:26:13 <sipa> it takes a CTransaction, which CWalletTx is a subclass of
1165 2014-06-25 17:26:15 <sipa> so yes
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1175 2014-06-25 17:38:30 fkz_ is now known as upb
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1178 2014-06-25 17:42:56 <Luke-Jr> what would a CCoins(CTransaction) be useful for? it's the unspent outputs from the transaction? O.o
1179 2014-06-25 17:44:15 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: for explainrawtransaction https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4226
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1181 2014-06-25 17:46:28 Pasha is now known as Cory
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1183 2014-06-25 17:47:42 <dekalo> CCoins contains metadata about a tx and serialized data that describes it's outputs states (spent/unspent/fromcoinbase)
1184 2014-06-25 17:48:02 <sipa> and height :)
1185 2014-06-25 17:48:23 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1186 2014-06-25 17:48:38 cbeams has quit ()
1187 2014-06-25 17:48:42 <dekalo> tnx sipa, i'm studing codebase to understand mine problem with signrawtransaction, but is the first time that i read c++ code
1188 2014-06-25 17:49:01 nowan has joined
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1190 2014-06-25 17:49:59 <dekalo> anycase, referring back to the speech that they did before, i can say that the code is quite readable :-)
1191 2014-06-25 17:50:31 <sipa> i suggest you download 0.3.17 or so, and have a look at that :)
1192 2014-06-25 17:50:58 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1193 2014-06-25 17:51:19 <sipa> hilights: wallet was in main.cpp, and did direct callbacks to the gui, and inside script there was a callback to the validation code to mark an input as spent :p
1194 2014-06-25 17:51:54 Cory has joined
1195 2014-06-25 17:52:40 <upb> sounds like solid software engineering
1196 2014-06-25 17:53:07 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm debugging a unit test failure related to CMutableTransaction, compiled -g3 on OSX
1197 2014-06-25 17:53:39 <gavinandresen> sipa: it is the DoS_checkSig test, testing to see if the signature cache is effective.
1198 2014-06-25 17:54:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: what is happening:  the VerifySignature-five-times code is taking longer than the SignSignature-once code. Found a fix, but am curious about why it is failing for me
1199 2014-06-25 17:55:02 <gavinandresen> Fix is:  Use CMutableTransaction to sign, assign to a CTransaction before doing the 5-Verifys.
1200 2014-06-25 17:55:16 <gavinandresen> … which I think matches what the core code will be doing (but I haven't looked)
1201 2014-06-25 17:55:34 micronxd has joined
1202 2014-06-25 17:56:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: why do we care about signing speed at all?
1203 2014-06-25 17:56:51 <sipa> i think i had to remove that test in the libsecp256k1 integration, because it's not significantly slower anymore
1204 2014-06-25 17:56:54 <gavinandresen> sipa: we don't… but Sign does a Verify as a sanity-check
1205 2014-06-25 17:57:09 ielo has joined
1206 2014-06-25 17:57:59 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok, sounds like removing that test instead of fixing it is the right thing to do
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1208 2014-06-25 17:58:31 <sipa> yeah, it's expected with the cmutable conversion that signing/... are slightly slower, and need more allocation/heap pressure
1209 2014-06-25 17:59:09 <sipa> there's unnecessary copying, but avoiding it made the code much harder
1210 2014-06-25 17:59:27 <gavinandresen> … and signing is rare, so that's fine.
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1212 2014-06-25 18:00:29 <gavinandresen> I'll submit a patch to remove that unit test; I don't see an easy way to Sign and then Verify-first-time-which-should-be-slow but then Verify-repeatedly-which-should-use-the-cache-and-be-fast
1213 2014-06-25 18:00:33 HANTI is now known as hanti
1214 2014-06-25 18:00:51 <gavinandresen> (can't time the Verify-first-time-which-should-be-slow separately from Sign)
1215 2014-06-25 18:01:19 <sipa> we should benchmark how much the cache still adds with libsecp256k1
1216 2014-06-25 18:01:22 <dekalo> sipa: ok, now is heaven
1217 2014-06-25 18:01:37 <sipa> i expect it to be still be useful, but less than a factor 5 :)
1218 2014-06-25 18:01:46 <gavinandresen> sipa: yup.  If I recall, there's an obscure command-line param to disable the cache.  I think.
1219 2014-06-25 18:01:46 <gmaxwell> sipa: the cache is still helpful re-DOS attacks, I expect.
1220 2014-06-25 18:01:58 <sipa> maybe an unordered_map for the cache helps
1221 2014-06-25 18:03:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: Did you see Dettman has a new non-trivial algorithmic speedup now?
1222 2014-06-25 18:03:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: of course
1223 2014-06-25 18:03:25 <sipa> the co-Z technique?
1224 2014-06-25 18:03:30 <gmaxwell> Yes.
1225 2014-06-25 18:03:52 <sipa> i love all he is doing... except reviewing it all :)
1226 2014-06-25 18:04:03 <AndersAA> phantomcircuit: I have a feeling there's not really consensus between devs on that.
1227 2014-06-25 18:04:11 <gmaxwell> On the plus side, he's also reviewing a lot of your existing code.
1228 2014-06-25 18:04:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: i expecially like "i think this is wrong... wait, no it isn't!"
1229 2014-06-25 18:05:13 AnoAnon has joined
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1231 2014-06-25 18:06:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: i should benchmark the pre-dettman code compared to head :)
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1234 2014-06-25 18:07:38 <gavinandresen> AndersAA phantomcircuit : bitcoin core is not life-or-death code.  $5,000 per person spread across a million people will not kill anybody, and we repeatedly warn people to only put in what they can afford to lose.
1235 2014-06-25 18:08:23 <gavinandresen> …. it just feels like it is life-or-death sometimes....
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1237 2014-06-25 18:08:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: even if every personal investor accepts that risk, we have a ton of companies that have a lot of stake in stability...
1238 2014-06-25 18:09:28 <gavinandresen> yes, but companies dying is nowhere near as bad morally as people dying
1239 2014-06-25 18:09:44 <sipa> couldn't agree more there :)
1240 2014-06-25 18:09:55 <gavinandresen> … and the comparisons being made were nuclear reactors and other "lots of people will die if you screw up" projects
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1244 2014-06-25 18:15:27 <AndersAA> gavinandresen: I suppose the question is more if it should be treated in the same careful and conservative manner? Do you believe there is broad consensus on how pull requests should be treated? It's hard to differentiate between "security-critical" in the ReadMe and safety-critical.
1245 2014-06-25 18:15:28 jgarzik has joined
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1250 2014-06-25 18:17:24 <jgarzik> sipa, Do you recall the UniValue/bitcoin-tx criticism you had, besides "{" styling?  I cannot find it on github
1251 2014-06-25 18:17:36 <gavinandresen> AndersAA: it will always be a matter of judgement, and depends on what is being added or changed.  A new RPC method needs less scrutiny than a new p2p protocol message, which needs less than a change to the core consensus code.
1252 2014-06-25 18:18:15 sahlhoff has joined
1253 2014-06-25 18:18:19 <sipa> the most fundamental distinction is whether changes only affect the reference client as one-of-many clients, or whether it affects the network as a whole
1254 2014-06-25 18:18:30 Cory has joined
1255 2014-06-25 18:18:39 haskoiner has joined
1256 2014-06-25 18:18:41 <sipa> jgarzik: not immediately, but i'll look again
1257 2014-06-25 18:19:02 <gavinandresen> crap, lost my commit message because gpg timed out asking me for my password…….  grumble grumble signing commits grumble grumble......
1258 2014-06-25 18:19:21 <gavinandresen> git doesn't stash that commit message somewhere, does it?
1259 2014-06-25 18:19:28 MolokoBot has joined
1260 2014-06-25 18:21:32 <AndersAA> But do most developers agree on whether a pull request should be treated as security-critical or not? There seems to be some disagreement when you look at getutxos by hearn - the general principles applied when reviewing that is.
1261 2014-06-25 18:22:23 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, strictly speaking if we all could put on our actuary hats for a minute, bitcoin is the equivalent of life critical systems
1262 2014-06-25 18:22:29 <sipa> AndersAA: security has nothing to do with that
1263 2014-06-25 18:22:47 <phantomcircuit> of course i wouldn't trade someones life for bitcoin
1264 2014-06-25 18:22:59 <phantomcircuit> but treating it as such isn't unreasonable
1265 2014-06-25 18:23:19 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: we'll get into a utilitarian debate over whether tickling ten billion people with a feather is as bad morally as killing one......
1266 2014-06-25 18:23:38 <sipa> depends whether i'm part of those 10 billion
1267 2014-06-25 18:23:43 <phantomcircuit> sipa, :P
1268 2014-06-25 18:23:45 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, gavinandresen: RE bitcoin akin to life critical systems, https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/480811790616371200
1269 2014-06-25 18:24:30 <AndersAA> sipa: How so? How carefully code should be reviewed (/ACK'ed or not) must have an impact on security?
1270 2014-06-25 18:24:33 ielo_ has joined
1271 2014-06-25 18:24:38 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yup.
1272 2014-06-25 18:24:57 <sipa> AndersAA: not sure what you're asking?
1273 2014-06-25 18:25:00 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I mean:  yup, another place where Peter and I fundamentally disagree.
1274 2014-06-25 18:25:27 <AndersAA> sipa: oh, you mean the actual PR has nothing to do with security?
1275 2014-06-25 18:25:31 <sipa> AndersAA: yes
1276 2014-06-25 18:25:45 <sipa> AndersAA: it's a suggested addition to the protocol
1277 2014-06-25 18:26:03 mappum has joined
1278 2014-06-25 18:28:24 <AndersAA> sipa: Got it.
1279 2014-06-25 18:30:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hmm i disagree with that actually, making something available which can be trivially used to produce supremely insecure nodes is a security concern
1280 2014-06-25 18:31:10 <AndersAA> gavinandresen: Why do you disagree with petertodd's comparison to medical and avionics? (Trying to understand dev. process here - and possible disagreements)
1281 2014-06-25 18:31:14 gjs278 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1282 2014-06-25 18:31:29 <phantomcircuit> indeed adding unnecessary and insecure method of operation was exactly how the NSA subverted a number of protocols
1283 2014-06-25 18:31:36 <phantomcircuit> (ipsec being a prime example)
1284 2014-06-25 18:32:12 <gavinandresen> AndersAA: because airplanes don't crash out of the sky if we screw up.  Worst case is some people lose some wealth.
1285 2014-06-25 18:32:33 GAit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1287 2014-06-25 18:33:36 <gavinandresen> AndersAA: not to mention the different deployment environment. We can, and do, ask people using our software to update it to fix bugs.  That is much harder and more expensive if your software is embedded deep in the guts of an airplane or a defribullator-doohickey
1288 2014-06-25 18:33:46 <gavinandresen> de-fribbulator.
1289 2014-06-25 18:33:50 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1290 2014-06-25 18:33:53 micronxd has joined
1291 2014-06-25 18:33:54 <gavinandresen> de-fubbulator.
1292 2014-06-25 18:34:08 <gavinandresen> I like that word.  WIsh I knew how to spell it.
1293 2014-06-25 18:34:17 <sipa> defibrillator?
1294 2014-06-25 18:34:25 <gavinandresen> thats it!
1295 2014-06-25 18:35:42 <AndersAA> gavinandresen: So you disagree with the comparison(made by I don't know who) that Bitcoin - due to potential hardforking - is like working on a 747 mid-air?
1296 2014-06-25 18:36:16 <sipa> though i agree with the distinction that no human lives are at risk... the stakes are pretty high
1297 2014-06-25 18:36:17 <gavinandresen> AndersAA: I think the comparison I've made is changing the tires on a car while it is driving down the highway….
1298 2014-06-25 18:36:31 davout has joined
1299 2014-06-25 18:36:38 <gavinandresen> Stakes are definitely high. Just not "nuclear/medical/avionics" high.
1300 2014-06-25 18:36:39 <jgarzik> I don't.  Worst case is a lot of people lose a lot of wealth.   Nobody will instantly die, but the change risk is very high.
1301 2014-06-25 18:37:02 <jgarzik> Actuarially, the value risked is higher than human life, according to insurance standards.
1302 2014-06-25 18:37:23 <waxwing> higher than *a* human life, presumably :)
1303 2014-06-25 18:37:41 <jgarzik> yes :)
1304 2014-06-25 18:37:42 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, which was my point, the value risked is approximately 3500 human lives by actuarial standards
1305 2014-06-25 18:37:52 <jgarzik> 9/11!!!
1306 2014-06-25 18:37:54 * jgarzik runs
1307 2014-06-25 18:38:02 <gavinandresen> I don't agree with that kind of accounting, that leads to the "tickle enough people and that's the same as killing one person"
1308 2014-06-25 18:38:12 <jgarzik> "This could be bitcoin's 9/11"  heh heh
1309 2014-06-25 18:38:24 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, bad analogy, lots of people really enjoy being tickled
1310 2014-06-25 18:38:31 * sipa DOES NOT
1311 2014-06-25 18:38:32 * phantomcircuit runs
1312 2014-06-25 18:38:44 <AndersAA> jgarzik gavinandresen sipa: Do you believe this disagreement over how the code/project should be treated is a problem for the project?
1313 2014-06-25 18:38:49 <waxwing> gavinandresen, that's what taleb means by convexity
1314 2014-06-25 18:38:53 <sipa> i think it's inevitable
1315 2014-06-25 18:39:07 <gavinandresen> AndersAA: you're the one writing a paper about open source projects?
1316 2014-06-25 18:39:15 <AndersAA> gavinandresen: Yes.
1317 2014-06-25 18:39:40 <sipa> having someone in control makes decision-making easier; it doesn't necessarily make it better
1318 2014-06-25 18:40:14 <jgarzik> AndersAA, I already explained this.  This is normal for all projects.  It is more normal for open source projects.  All disagreements are typically out in the open.  Everybody has a different opinion.
1319 2014-06-25 18:40:15 <maaku> AndersAA: we've already crossed a threshold where consensus is no longer possible over large enough changes
1320 2014-06-25 18:40:16 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1321 2014-06-25 18:40:26 <jgarzik> AndersAA, You really should research open source projects first, like Linux.
1322 2014-06-25 18:40:42 <jgarzik> maaku, horseshit
1323 2014-06-25 18:41:06 <maaku> jgarzik: you pay attention to the github threads?
1324 2014-06-25 18:41:46 <jgarzik> maaku, no I'm completely unaware of anything that goes on on github
1325 2014-06-25 18:41:47 <AndersAA> jgarzik: I'm also making a comparison to the linux kernel project, so I have to ask some of the same questions to figure out how the Bitcoin project is different(or not).
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1329 2014-06-25 18:44:03 <gavinandresen> Bitcoin is just smaller and less mature.  And the Creator is not around to be Benevolent Dictator For Life.
1330 2014-06-25 18:44:12 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1331 2014-06-25 18:44:17 <jgarzik> +1
1332 2014-06-25 18:44:47 <gavinandresen> Hopefully wumpus doesn't mind being Benevolent Dictator for the next little while.....
1333 2014-06-25 18:45:13 Sambler has joined
1334 2014-06-25 18:45:39 <gavinandresen> At least until there are eleven different implementations, all with their own Dictators. Which is when somebody will be organizing Dictator Summits......
1335 2014-06-25 18:46:08 <maaku> i'm not sure the benevolent dictator model fits here
1336 2014-06-25 18:46:18 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, Reminds me of a Starship Troopers quote: "I need a corporal. You're it, until you're dead or I find someone better." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120201/quotes?item=qt0257102
1337 2014-06-25 18:47:07 <jgarzik> maaku, Yes, not even that.  The ultimate dictator is the user base, who may simply ignore any new dictator.
1338 2014-06-25 18:47:48 <gavinandresen> maaku: you involved with other open source projects that work under another model? I'm always curious to hear about other ways of working that work.
1339 2014-06-25 18:47:50 <jgarzik> devs are more like chief mechanics, who occasionally add in upgrades to make the car run better, or do some new thing.  But devs are not the drivers/pilots.
1340 2014-06-25 18:49:50 <waxwing> we no longer need drivers. google has that technology :)
1341 2014-06-25 18:50:12 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, dictator summits
1342 2014-06-25 18:50:16 <phantomcircuit> sounds like fun
1343 2014-06-25 18:50:54 crunk-juice has joined
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1345 2014-06-25 18:51:16 <sipa> everyone there will be like "No, *I* am King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm"
1346 2014-06-25 18:51:24 <AndersAA> A big difference between Bitcoin- and Linux-implementations is that forking Linux has no critical consequences and Bitcoin can't fork the Core/protocol. <-- How do you view this statement?
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1348 2014-06-25 18:52:20 <sipa> oh, you certainly can fork the core, and protocol implementations
1349 2014-06-25 18:52:28 <sipa> but you can't fork the consensus rules
1350 2014-06-25 18:52:49 <sipa> and forking their implementation is hard to avoid, if you're forking the rest
1351 2014-06-25 18:54:34 <AndersAA> sipa: Thank you.
1352 2014-06-25 18:55:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ha
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1359 2014-06-25 19:00:05 <gwillen> 11:47:14 < sipa> everyone there will be like "No, *I* am King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm"
1360 2014-06-25 19:00:05 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1361 2014-06-25 19:00:08 <gwillen> sipa: bahahahahahaha.
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1385 2014-06-25 19:29:04 home_jg is now known as jgarzik
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1387 2014-06-25 19:31:27 ubuntuDoubts has joined
1388 2014-06-25 19:31:36 <ubuntuDoubts> yoyoyo
1389 2014-06-25 19:32:39 <ubuntuDoubts> Hey mates, does its possible compile  bitcoin on digital ocean VPS with 1gb ram ?
1390 2014-06-25 19:32:53 banghouse has joined
1391 2014-06-25 19:32:54 <ubuntuDoubts> Failing me, memory exhausted :(
1392 2014-06-25 19:33:03 <pigeons> ubuntuDoubts: ask in #bitcoin
1393 2014-06-25 19:33:50 <sipa> use -j1
1394 2014-06-25 19:34:30 <ubuntuDoubts> -jl ?
1395 2014-06-25 19:34:45 micronxd has quit (Quit: micronxd)
1396 2014-06-25 19:35:04 [nsh] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1397 2014-06-25 19:35:37 <sipa> no, -j1
1398 2014-06-25 19:35:38 <sipa> to make
1399 2014-06-25 19:35:47 <sipa> to make it build single threadedly
1400 2014-06-25 19:36:04 <ubuntuDoubts> so instead of use make i should use -jl ?
1401 2014-06-25 19:36:32 <ubuntuDoubts> -jl -f makefile.unix ?
1402 2014-06-25 19:36:45 <sipa> we don't have makefile.unix anymore
1403 2014-06-25 19:36:52 <ubuntuDoubts> I know.
1404 2014-06-25 19:37:01 <sipa> ./autogen.sh && ./configure && make -j1
1405 2014-06-25 19:37:02 <ubuntuDoubts> But the code that im doing is earlier one
1406 2014-06-25 19:37:44 <sipa> make -j1 makefile.unix then
1407 2014-06-25 19:38:06 <sipa> but really, offtopic here
1408 2014-06-25 19:38:28 <ubuntuDoubts> sipa: ok! sorry then, but thanks for your patience today! :D
1409 2014-06-25 19:38:43 <ubuntuDoubts> Anyway, -jl doesnt work dunno why. not a work command
1410 2014-06-25 19:39:03 <sipa> try copy pasting
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1412 2014-06-25 19:39:47 <Jouke> -j<one> not -j<L>
1413 2014-06-25 19:39:47 <ubuntuDoubts> still not work
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1416 2014-06-25 19:40:58 <ubuntuDoubts> mega bug make: Nothing to be done for `makefile.unix'.
1417 2014-06-25 19:41:08 <ubuntuDoubts> wow
1418 2014-06-25 19:41:13 <sipa> oh sorry
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1420 2014-06-25 19:41:19 <ubuntuDoubts> this is cause i tried eraly to compile and it error?
1421 2014-06-25 19:41:20 <sipa> make -j1 -f makefile.unix
1422 2014-06-25 19:41:34 <ubuntuDoubts> thanks
1423 2014-06-25 19:41:38 <ubuntuDoubts> thanks thanks thanks
1424 2014-06-25 19:41:46 <ubuntuDoubts> sipa pm your adress.
1425 2014-06-25 19:41:55 <ubuntuDoubts> cannot be now but its here.
1426 2014-06-25 19:42:07 <ubuntuDoubts> and i dont forgot who has been helping me past days
1427 2014-06-25 19:42:17 <sipa> no need
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1429 2014-06-25 19:43:24 <ubuntuDoubts> virtual memory exhausted: Cannot allocate memory   maybe i need to make what pigeons advise
1430 2014-06-25 19:43:44 <ubuntuDoubts> the swap file
1431 2014-06-25 19:43:54 <sipa> #bitcoin please now
1432 2014-06-25 19:44:02 <ubuntuDoubts> a swap file means what? that it will use limited mem to make a ''x'' file?
1433 2014-06-25 19:44:04 <ubuntuDoubts> Okok
1434 2014-06-25 19:44:06 <ubuntuDoubts> sorry
1435 2014-06-25 19:44:18 <ubuntuDoubts> thanks once again! cya later
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1497 2014-06-25 20:38:57 <wumpus> WTF @ #4412
1498 2014-06-25 20:39:29 <sipa> maaku's comment is spot on :)
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1501 2014-06-25 20:41:58 <wumpus> yeah :)
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1504 2014-06-25 20:42:40 <wumpus> Delft University of Technology, interesting
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1506 2014-06-25 20:43:59 <wumpus> a pity they didn't pick a subject that would have been actually useful to us
1507 2014-06-25 20:44:09 <gwillen> oh dear, WTF indeed
1508 2014-06-25 20:44:16 <AndersAA> "...but including it in this repository would accomplish nothing of value except cause users to obtain their Bitcoin software from another source." Bitcoin Core - Centralized Blacklist Edition.
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1510 2014-06-25 20:45:05 <wumpus> in their credit, this is the first bitcoin-related paper of which the authors actually submit an implementation too AFAIK
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1512 2014-06-25 20:46:35 <gwillen> I don't totally understand gmaxwell's comment about the good miners attempting to restore the blocks that fell out of the chain
1513 2014-06-25 20:46:44 <gwillen> unless 'blocks' was meant to read 'transactions'
1514 2014-06-25 20:46:48 <gmaxwell> the code changes, from an engineering perspective, look not terribly unreasonable.
1515 2014-06-25 20:47:06 <gwillen> gmaxwell: ^
1516 2014-06-25 20:47:17 <gwillen> heh, it's a shame they wasted all that engineering effort, then
1517 2014-06-25 20:47:24 * gmaxwell ninja
1518 2014-06-25 20:47:30 <wumpus> yes, as I said, it's a shame they didn't pick a better subject
1519 2014-06-25 20:47:44 <gwillen> gmaxwell: haha
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1521 2014-06-25 20:48:03 <gmaxwell> I mean, it wasn't a huge change. And it's not quite production ready (e.g. it will behave badly if the https fetch fails)... but yes, it's very good that they wrote code.
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1525 2014-06-25 20:49:34 <Jouke> wumpus: I'll try to get into contact with the proffessor and offer a place for an internship to work on better subjects. Are you willing to maybe offer some guidance from time to time to the students if something comes out of it? We'll pay for that as well (just throwing ideas around).
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1534 2014-06-25 20:54:39 <wumpus> Jouke: sure! sounds like a good idea
1535 2014-06-25 20:55:22 <Jouke> :)
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1582 2014-06-25 21:25:05 <Erik___> test
1583 2014-06-25 21:25:20 <sipa> test failed
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1585 2014-06-25 21:25:38 <Erik___> :´(
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1587 2014-06-25 21:26:26 <tm4> lol
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1600 2014-06-25 21:41:46 <jgarzik> grah
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1602 2014-06-25 21:42:26 <jgarzik> WTF was the reason for all those casts again?  Must dig.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpcclient.cpp#L51
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1607 2014-06-25 21:46:03 <sipa> jgarzik: the client needs to guess whether a command-line argument is supposed to be a string, a number or a bool
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1611 2014-06-25 21:49:23 <jgarzik> sipa, sure, but in theory json parser can figure that out
1612 2014-06-25 21:50:08 <sipa> what if you want to create a address book entry with name 'true' ? :p
1613 2014-06-25 21:51:24 <AndersAA> "\'true\'" :P
1614 2014-06-25 21:51:45 <jgarzik> oh I see.  some args are _unquoted_ strings, assumed to be strings, and then that assumption is invalid quite often, so we fix it up.
1615 2014-06-25 21:51:57 <jgarzik> I thought strings were quoted as in json
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1617 2014-06-25 21:53:57 <sipa> did you ever use bitcoind? :)
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1619 2014-06-25 21:54:59 <sipa> anyway, i agree it's quite ugly
1620 2014-06-25 21:55:21 <sipa> especially that the knowledge about what to do with which commands/arguments is in the client, not in the server
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1628 2014-06-25 21:59:10 <jgarzik> sipa, I always use python wrappers which handle client details for me ;p
1629 2014-06-25 21:59:28 <jgarzik> always disliked the command line built-in client
1630 2014-06-25 21:59:35 <jgarzik> and avoided it
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1633 2014-06-25 22:01:10 <cfields> jgarzik: my polymorphic example would've handled that for you :p
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1635 2014-06-25 22:01:40 <jgarzik>     "verifychain",           0, int64_t,
1636 2014-06-25 22:01:40 <jgarzik>     "verifychain",           1, int64_t,
1637 2014-06-25 22:01:40 <jgarzik>     "keypoolrefill",         0, int64_t,
1638 2014-06-25 22:01:40 <jgarzik>     "getrawmempool",         0, bool,
1639 2014-06-25 22:01:40 <jgarzik>     "estimatefee",           0, boost::int64_t,
1640 2014-06-25 22:01:40 <jgarzik>     "estimatepriority",      0, boost::int64_t,
1641 2014-06-25 22:01:55 <jgarzik> we stomped boost::int64_t out of existence, yet it just won't die ;p
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1645 2014-06-25 22:11:17 <jgarzik> hmmmmm
1646 2014-06-25 22:11:25 <jgarzik> I still don't see why we need to specify types at all
1647 2014-06-25 22:11:32 <AWeSomeAo> How about having -externalip=<ip> accept a comma separated list if you are running bitcoind with ipv4 and tor networks at the same time, to allow users from both networks to find your node?
1648 2014-06-25 22:11:33 <jgarzik> even the code itself hints at this:
1649 2014-06-25 22:11:44 <jgarzik>         // reinterpret string as unquoted json value
1650 2014-06-25 22:11:44 <jgarzik>         Value value2;
1651 2014-06-25 22:11:44 <jgarzik>         string strJSON = value.get_str();
1652 2014-06-25 22:11:44 <jgarzik>         if (!read_string(strJSON, value2))
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1655 2014-06-25 22:12:29 <jgarzik> I think we just need a "this is not a string, interpret as JSON" flag
1656 2014-06-25 22:12:56 <sipa> AWeSomeAo: you can specify it multiple times
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1658 2014-06-25 22:13:24 <AWeSomeAo> sipa, thank you!
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1672 2014-06-25 22:24:43 <lechuga_> how do i run the automatic test suite against bitcoind?
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1683 2014-06-25 22:31:47 <dekalo> is there someone who have tried to partial sign a P2SH transaction with bitcoinJ and so tried to put the final sign with bitcoind RPC command signrawtransaction ?
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1713 2014-06-25 23:01:27 <dekalo> if ive understood well how sign works on P2PKH transaction data are signed by bitcoind: 1-txin[i].prevout.hash, 2-txid[i].prevout.scriptPubKey, 3-"i" and 4-all txoutputs (with "i" input index that we are signing and SIG_HASH_ALL). Now my question is about P2SH signing procedure, reading the code of SignSignature() seems like that instead of hash the entire scriptPubKey, it hash only the hash of redeemScript (that be
1714 2014-06-25 23:01:28 <dekalo> tween OP_HASH160 and OP_EQUAL). Is this correct?
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1753 2014-06-25 23:34:03 <nfnty> What's the size of a pubkey and sig? Any documentation you can point me towards regarding why?
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1756 2014-06-25 23:34:50 <sipa> compressed public keys are 33 bytes (the older, uncompressed ones, are 65)
1757 2014-06-25 23:34:59 <sipa> sigatures are around 72 bytes
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1760 2014-06-25 23:36:04 <nfnty> Is there any documentation regarding this?
1761 2014-06-25 23:37:00 <sipa> it's 256 bit elliptic curve crypto; those numbers are typical for ECDSA on that size curves
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1763 2014-06-25 23:37:31 <sipa> the signature size could actually be 64 bytes (2 256 bit numbers), but for some odd reason, DER encoding is used for them, which adds a few header bytes overhead
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1765 2014-06-25 23:38:55 <nfnty> thanks
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1768 2014-06-25 23:40:32 <nfnty> btw, what's the max size of a message?
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1770 2014-06-25 23:42:21 <sipa> what message?
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1773 2014-06-25 23:43:29 <nfnty> that can be hashed with sha-2 (that's the hashing function being used for signatures right?)
1774 2014-06-25 23:43:44 <nfnty> is it arbitrary?
1775 2014-06-25 23:44:37 <sipa> a hashing function is a not a signing function
1776 2014-06-25 23:44:47 <sipa> but sha-2 accepts arbitary length messages yes
1777 2014-06-25 23:45:14 <nfnty> doesn't the signing process use a hashing function?
1778 2014-06-25 23:45:24 <sipa> ah, yes
1779 2014-06-25 23:45:37 <nfnty> k, ty
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1790 2014-06-25 23:53:55 <dekalo> sipa: what's the reason behind OP_HASH160 and OP_EQUAL  removing from scriptPubKey in Solver() ?
1791 2014-06-25 23:55:26 <dekalo> (if whichTypeRet is TX_SCRIPTHASH)
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