1 2014-06-27 00:00:49 <cfields> gmaxwell: heh, well my goal here isn't to fix any current bugs, but rather to establish a baseline very early in the project's life
   2 2014-06-27 00:01:17 <cfields> gmaxwell: it could certainly be argued, though, that those 2 main warnings don't really help much realistically
   3 2014-06-27 00:01:27 <cfields> (narrowing width and implicit sign conversion)
   4 2014-06-27 00:02:26 <cfields> so i'm ok with dropping it if it's not deemed worth the trouble. but if not, i'd like to do the work asap so that the baseline is established early
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   7 2014-06-27 00:06:52 <sipa> some of the changes do look really silly, and don't seem like they can be avoided
   8 2014-06-27 00:07:01 <gmaxwell> cfields: forcing alignment of 1 can be horrible for performance.
   9 2014-06-27 00:07:09 <sipa> unsigned char *ptr = (unsigned char*)malloc(...)
  10 2014-06-27 00:07:29 <cfields> gmaxwell: https://github.com/theuni/secp256k1/commit/11718c9a5835b389d926b271c713f6b7db009046
  11 2014-06-27 00:08:08 <sipa> i dont understand
  12 2014-06-27 00:08:23 <cfields> gmaxwell: understood that the change is very wrong. that was meant to be a placeholder to investigate whether or not the padding could be harmful
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  14 2014-06-27 00:08:53 <justanotheruser> Is there someone that is checking the consensus of clients 0.1-.8?
  15 2014-06-27 00:09:08 <sipa> cfields: i don't see a sizeof(secp256k1_ge_consts_t) in tests
  16 2014-06-27 00:09:15 <sipa> and i'm not sure what you're trying to do
  17 2014-06-27 00:09:23 <gmaxwell> cfields: if you're worred about padding _inside_ a struct you should sort the struct by object size. Though this too can have performance implications if the original order was designed to pack cache lines well.
  18 2014-06-27 00:09:51 <cfields> sipa: sorry, i wasn't looking to keep you up with a review tonight, was just curious as to your overall thoughts
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  20 2014-06-27 00:10:02 <sipa> if a struct is padded, its sizeof goes up too
  21 2014-06-27 00:10:25 <sipa> cfields: ok; well... unsure, i like the general idea of being extra safe
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  23 2014-06-27 00:10:46 <sipa> but it does seem a bit excessivw
  24 2014-06-27 00:10:55 <cfields> sipa: clearly adding in hacks for the sake of discussion didn't go well... :)
  25 2014-06-27 00:11:04 <cfields> sipa: i'll try another round with clean fixes instead
  26 2014-06-27 00:11:34 <sipa> sure, but i still just don't understand what you were trying to do, even if it was a knowingly incorrect solution
  27 2014-06-27 00:11:38 <gmaxwell> it's just not clear to me which changes were discussion ones and what you were trying to discuss. :)
  28 2014-06-27 00:12:26 <sipa> is there some particular compiler warning that is affected by this?
  29 2014-06-27 00:12:32 <cfields> gmaxwell: heh, fair enough.
  30 2014-06-27 00:12:41 <sipa> (the pack pragma, specifically)
  31 2014-06-27 00:12:47 <cfields> sipa: yea, but i was afraid that there could be actual implicationss
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  33 2014-06-27 00:13:01 <sipa> what is the warning?
  34 2014-06-27 00:13:15 <cfields> sipa: iirc there are a few places where sizeof(some struct) was used in calculating loop counters
  35 2014-06-27 00:13:24 <sipa> yes, so?
  36 2014-06-27 00:13:45 <gmaxwell> yes? if it's sizeof(struct[])/sizeof(struct) thats exactly right.
  37 2014-06-27 00:14:13 <cfields> heh, understood. i'll try to dig up the case that made me add it
  38 2014-06-27 00:14:20 <sipa> okay :)
  39 2014-06-27 00:14:38 * sipa zZzZ
  40 2014-06-27 00:14:45 <cfields> sipa: and yea, clang will warn about the compiler adding padding
  41 2014-06-27 00:15:05 <cfields> which i agree is pretty useless, i just wanted to ensure that it wasn't causing any complications
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  44 2014-06-27 00:15:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think with the right crazy options clang warns when there is pading _inside_ a struct that could be avoided by reordering it.
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  48 2014-06-27 00:16:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. int *;int;int*
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  50 2014-06-27 00:16:37 <cfields> gmaxwell: i was under the impression that it was warning about eg: struct foo{ char x[3]; };
  51 2014-06-27 00:17:23 <gmaxwell> that would be crazy
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  54 2014-06-27 00:19:13 <cfields> gmaxwell: yep, you're correct
  55 2014-06-27 00:19:37 <gmaxwell> whew
  56 2014-06-27 00:20:20 <cfields> wow, i had a pretty serious misunderstanding of that one :)
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  58 2014-06-27 00:21:17 <cfields> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=yLrW7z7t
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  61 2014-06-27 00:21:52 <gmaxwell> yea, if you sort the struct so that it's *,*,int the warning goes away, right?
  62 2014-06-27 00:22:54 <cfields> heh, nope
  63 2014-06-27 00:23:05 <cfields> test.c:1:8: warning: padding size of 'struct foo' with 4 bytes to alignment boundary [-Wpadded]
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  66 2014-06-27 00:23:52 <cfields> adding another int does it
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  73 2014-06-27 00:30:21 <cfields> gmaxwell: fwiw, it was cases like this that i was worried about: https://github.com/theuni/secp256k1/blob/master/src/ecmult_impl.h#L186
  74 2014-06-27 00:30:46 <cfields> not saying it's a bug by any means, only that i hoped to get someone else's eyes on it
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  76 2014-06-27 00:33:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: as an aside, wrt good C style, it's generally better to always use sizeof(var) instead of sizeof(var's type) whenever the sizeof is referring directly to a specific variable that you're operating on, since the latter can become desynced from the variable.
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  81 2014-06-27 00:38:46 <cfields> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=x0x8Kj1W
  82 2014-06-27 00:39:24 <cfields> so, it can point out bugs, just no idea if those apply to secp's uses or not
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  85 2014-06-27 00:42:07 <gmaxwell> I don't know why you think thats a bug example there.
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  92 2014-06-27 00:46:34 <cfields> gmaxwell: i don't, i'm just trying to explain my thought process, very poorly as usual :)
  93 2014-06-27 00:47:32 <cfields> i suppose the only place i've ever seen it hit in the real world is when pushing to external libs/drivers that expect samples of packed data. gl/gles specifically
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  97 2014-06-27 00:49:12 <cfields> anyway, i'll just drop the warning
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 102 2014-06-27 00:56:18 <gmaxwell> cfields: the function that was concerning you is basically copying a secp256k1_ge_t in a funny order, it's actually working with the size of the structure there (since its copying it), so there is no harm.  It's a rather odd construction, basically a localhost only private information retrivial scheme which attempts to hide the memory access patterns. :)
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 104 2014-06-27 00:59:03 <cfields> gmaxwell: ok. ultimately i just wanted some eyes on it, and you've done that. Thanks for endulging me :)
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 106 2014-06-27 00:59:58 <cfields> and for explaining as well.
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 253 2014-06-27 05:02:16 <ryan-c> does bitcoin still use json_sprint?
 254 2014-06-27 05:02:17 <ryan-c> er
 255 2014-06-27 05:02:26 <ryan-c> json_spirit
 256 2014-06-27 05:04:22 <gmaxwell> for the moment.
 257 2014-06-27 05:04:56 <gmaxwell> jeff has a replacement— far simpler and smaller, perhaps we'll switch to it.
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 260 2014-06-27 05:08:00 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: are you at all familiar with it?
 261 2014-06-27 05:08:40 <ryan-c> I've got an Object - I want to access a particular value (which should be an array) within it by key/property name and iterate over that array.
 262 2014-06-27 05:08:47 btcftw21 has joined
 263 2014-06-27 05:08:53 MaxSan has joined
 264 2014-06-27 05:09:08 <ryan-c> and i'm about to start pulling hair out over it :(
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 268 2014-06-27 05:12:01 <andytoshi> ryan-c: like, if you did 'decoderawtransaction' and wanted to iterate over the inputs, using the name "vin" to get them?
 269 2014-06-27 05:12:32 btcftw21_ has joined
 270 2014-06-27 05:12:56 <ryan-c> andytoshi: I'm trying to iterate over the addresses to rewrite them with a different version byte (yes, i have a sane reason to do this)
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 273 2014-06-27 05:13:47 <andytoshi> what i described, i did in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4226/files .... what you describe i think is done by the createrawtransaction RPC?
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 276 2014-06-27 05:14:16 <ryan-c> I'm operating on the object returned by ScriptPubKeyToJSON
 277 2014-06-27 05:14:35 <ryan-c> wait
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 280 2014-06-27 05:14:53 <ryan-c> ...yeah, need to do it after.
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 282 2014-06-27 05:15:38 <sipa> scriptpubkeys do not have a version byte
 283 2014-06-27 05:15:46 <ryan-c> sipa: i know
 284 2014-06-27 05:15:47 <gmaxwell> wumpus: get ready for another certificational respin (I expect): http://blog.securitymouse.com/2014/06/raising-lazarus-20-year-old-bug-that.html
 285 2014-06-27 05:16:04 <andytoshi> ryan-c: ok, i'm not sure about replacing strings, but i was able to iterate over an array of objects and add some fields to them in the PR that i linked
 286 2014-06-27 05:16:05 <ryan-c> sipa: but what ScriptPubKeyToJSON has them
 287 2014-06-27 05:16:18 <ryan-c> ack
 288 2014-06-27 05:16:25 <ryan-c> language fail
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 290 2014-06-27 05:16:57 <ryan-c> andytoshi: find_value looks like what I want.
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 294 2014-06-27 05:18:16 <gmaxwell> hm, actually looks like -qt doesn't really have a copy of lz4 in it, just lzf. whew
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 342 2014-06-27 06:26:52 <wumpus> phew
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 348 2014-06-27 06:36:55 <wumpus> gmaxwell: so this would have normally affected openssl?
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 351 2014-06-27 06:40:06 <gmaxwell> if it had been lzf instead of lzo or if openssl had lzo (some ssl implementations do...)
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 383 2014-06-27 07:35:15 <mindphlux> Hi. I have a question about OP_RETURN. Is this the right place to ask?
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 387 2014-06-27 07:37:25 <maaku> mindphlux: just ask the question. don't ask to ask (you'll be redirected if OT)
 388 2014-06-27 07:37:59 <mindphlux> kk. Is it possible to have more than one OP_RETURN script outputs in a transaction?
 389 2014-06-27 07:38:25 <maaku> possible yes, but fails IsStandard (so not relayed by most clients)
 390 2014-06-27 07:38:48 <mindphlux> how does it fail? because OP_RETURN fails generally or more than one OP_RETURN fails?
 391 2014-06-27 07:39:27 <maaku> more than one OP_RETURN is non-standard
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 393 2014-06-27 07:39:46 <mindphlux> Thank you!
 394 2014-06-27 07:40:02 <maaku> but why do you need more than one?
 395 2014-06-27 07:40:49 <mindphlux> I want to store meta data in a big sendmany transaction to many individual addresses, with couple of bytes of meta data for each output
 396 2014-06-27 07:40:53 Dizzle has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 397 2014-06-27 07:41:09 <mindphlux> and I thought, using multiple OP_RETURNs, one for each output would be a good way
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 401 2014-06-27 07:42:32 <maaku> what kind of metadata? this is probably an indication that you're doing something wrong
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 403 2014-06-27 07:43:02 <mindphlux> think colored-coins implementation
 404 2014-06-27 07:43:47 <maaku> ok well that's fully unvalided information, no? i would highly recommend a more compressed approach, such as padded order-based coloring
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 407 2014-06-27 07:45:33 <mindphlux> My approach is not 100% like the colored coins implementations that are available, I want to implement a much more lightweight solution to "color" my tokens
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 409 2014-06-27 07:48:07 <mindphlux> so I must think about outsourcing certain data to fit my stuff into one single OP_RETURN
 410 2014-06-27 07:48:10 <mindphlux> thanks
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 441 2014-06-27 08:12:13 <dsnrk> mindphlux: you shouldn't be trying to store any data in an OP_RETURN. there's enough space for a hash and nothing else.
 442 2014-06-27 08:13:40 <jcorgan> and with a hash tree, you can commit to a large number of individual pieces of data that are stored elsewhere, so you don't need a transaction per hash
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 445 2014-06-27 08:15:09 <jcorgan> in other words, use OP_RETURN sparingly, you are making other people store data that is only relevant to your service
 446 2014-06-27 08:15:53 <Luke-Jr> against their will*
 447 2014-06-27 08:16:50 * dsnrk nods
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 501 2014-06-27 09:54:13 <Plarkplark_> What would be an advised method to convert a SHA1 to Bitcoin addres (not private key). Yes I understand that the coins sent there would become unmoveable.
 502 2014-06-27 09:54:53 <Plarkplark_> Converting SHA1 to BASE58 does not make it a valid address.
 503 2014-06-27 09:55:19 <dsnrk> what
 504 2014-06-27 09:55:35 <dsnrk> no. don't do that. if you're going to be a jerk and store things in the block chain use OP_RETURN.
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 507 2014-06-27 09:57:14 <Plarkplark_> ok
 508 2014-06-27 09:57:45 <Plarkplark_> But that is not pruneable.
 509 2014-06-27 09:58:16 <dsnrk> OP_RETURN IS pruneable, sending outputs to random addresses is not.
 510 2014-06-27 09:58:55 <Plarkplark_> They end up stuck, right? I don't want to harm blockchain so.
 511 2014-06-27 09:59:01 <Plarkplark_> Why is that a problem
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 514 2014-06-27 09:59:49 <dsnrk> we keep a DB of all unspent outputs. if you send crap to addresses which don't exist, we need to keep track of those outputs until the end of time. if you use OP_RETURN they are marked as unspendable forever, so we can just ignore them and never add them to the UXTO at all.
 515 2014-06-27 10:00:20 AnoAnon has joined
 516 2014-06-27 10:00:35 <dsnrk> OP_RETURN is the kind one. even though it's still a bad move to store anything in the block chain
 517 2014-06-27 10:00:36 <Plarkplark_> Right. Thanks for explaining. OP_RETURN looks like more then I wished it would do, people could cram illegal stuff in there.
 518 2014-06-27 10:00:58 <dsnrk> they could without OP_RETURN too.
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 520 2014-06-27 10:01:34 <Plarkplark_> fair point. thanks
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 522 2014-06-27 10:04:06 <Plarkplark_> So the outputs in an OP_RETURN go "back" to the wallet/input of the sending wallet?
 523 2014-06-27 10:05:14 <jcorgan> no, you make a 0 valued OP_RETURN txout
 524 2014-06-27 10:05:47 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: the blockchain is NOT FOR DATA
 525 2014-06-27 10:05:54 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: no matter how you do it, you are harming it
 526 2014-06-27 10:06:09 <Plarkplark_> But.... why did OP_RETURN got put there? it's used for it?
 527 2014-06-27 10:06:29 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: inputs are not wallets either
 528 2014-06-27 10:06:39 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: it wasn't put there.
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 531 2014-06-27 10:07:34 <Plarkplark_> Luke-Jr, So your stance on all these "proof of existence" document things is that it's spam?
 532 2014-06-27 10:07:40 <Plarkplark_> (no offence)
 533 2014-06-27 10:07:52 <jcorgan> OP_RETURN was created because people were doing even worse things, like what you were considering with the SHA1->addr idea
 534 2014-06-27 10:08:00 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: if they bloat the blockchain, yes. there are plenty of easier and better ways to do it that don't.
 535 2014-06-27 10:08:29 <Luke-Jr> spamming the blockchain is just a lazy man's way out at the expense of everyone else
 536 2014-06-27 10:08:34 <Plarkplark_> Yeah, but bitcoin is the single most secure decentral concensus network. So much room for innovation. But doing this would hurt the blockchain and that is a dilemma.
 537 2014-06-27 10:08:50 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: proof of existence does not require consensus
 538 2014-06-27 10:09:15 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: merged mining allows you to use the blockchain framework for virtually anything else
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 540 2014-06-27 10:09:22 <Luke-Jr> (without bloating it)
 541 2014-06-27 10:10:14 <Plarkplark_> I won't go any further then personal experiments, just for learning. But you can't stop a system being "abused" when it does work,.
 542 2014-06-27 10:10:23 <dsnrk> Plarkplark_: think of OP_RETURN like a needle exchange. people keep shooting up, OP_RETURN is the safe but totally undesirable option that reduced the impact.
 543 2014-06-27 10:10:43 <Plarkplark_> dsnrk, lol ok, you made the point.
 544 2014-06-27 10:11:04 <dsnrk> we can't stop people doing stupid shit, but we can lessen the impact.
 545 2014-06-27 10:11:14 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: miners have a duty to filter out spam and crap, so yes we can
 546 2014-06-27 10:11:25 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: also, testnet exists for this stuff
 547 2014-06-27 10:11:29 <dsnrk> there's a lot more interesting things to do with Bitcoin than cloning ideas you see on hacker news anyway.
 548 2014-06-27 10:11:30 <Luke-Jr> (personal experiments)
 549 2014-06-27 10:11:48 <jcorgan> Luke-Jr: i know you feel very strongly about this, but i never got where you came up with the idea that miners have some sort of "duty"
 550 2014-06-27 10:12:14 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: why have a human component at all? because without it, spam destroys the system.
 551 2014-06-27 10:12:19 <Plarkplark_> You have to remember that there are a lot of crappy hobbiest programmers like me that will just attempt these things.
 552 2014-06-27 10:12:36 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: yes, that's why we have a testnet; for anyone to experiment
 553 2014-06-27 10:12:52 <Luke-Jr> you can do even more crazy stuff on testnet too
 554 2014-06-27 10:13:42 <Plarkplark_> Maybe it's like attachments in Email. Email was never meant to be used as a file exchange platform. Yet, my clients sometimes sent 100s of MB (or bigger) over SMTP.
 555 2014-06-27 10:14:00 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: I would flame someone for that.
 556 2014-06-27 10:14:06 <Plarkplark_> I mail plaintext
 557 2014-06-27 10:14:30 <Luke-Jr> email *is* plaintext. binary attachments have to be base64 encoded..
 558 2014-06-27 10:14:38 <Luke-Jr> so they waste like 1.5x the bandwidth
 559 2014-06-27 10:14:41 Belxjander has joined
 560 2014-06-27 10:14:42 <Plarkplark_> i know, but users don't care.
 561 2014-06-27 10:15:02 <dsnrk> users of bitcoin care. you should see how much they complain about the core client being slow.
 562 2014-06-27 10:15:08 <dsnrk> WHY IS IT SO BIG
 563 2014-06-27 10:15:24 <Plarkplark_> That's what I meant. As long as Bitcoin can be abused, as you call it, it will be. I understand you feel annoyed by it, dont shoot the messenger and all.
 564 2014-06-27 10:15:25 <dsnrk> because jerk developers keep doing shit like proof of existence.
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 566 2014-06-27 10:15:47 <Plarkplark_> dsnrk, I'm pretty sure anti-bitcoin shills spam the blockchain to hurt it. Put in EICAR test files etc.
 567 2014-06-27 10:16:16 <dsnrk> that's not a problem we can solve easily. we can tell you not to do things though.
 568 2014-06-27 10:16:26 <Plarkplark_> Thanks for explaining.
 569 2014-06-27 10:17:14 <Plarkplark_> So Mastercoin and Colored coins are both equally bad?
 570 2014-06-27 10:17:20 <jcorgan> it is a (perhaps unsolveable) weakness of bitcoin that it cannot prevent all forms of bad acting by design, but still has to rely on social norms to do so
 571 2014-06-27 10:17:51 <Plarkplark_> jcorgan, I would still cost a lot of BTC (money) to spam the blockchain into unmanageable sizes.
 572 2014-06-27 10:17:58 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: mostly bad ideas; smart property (a variant of coloured coins) could be a good idea, if implemented sanelty
 573 2014-06-27 10:17:59 <Luke-Jr> sanely*
 574 2014-06-27 10:18:20 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: unfortunately, it doesn't cost enough :/
 575 2014-06-27 10:18:45 <Plarkplark_> Sidechains?
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 578 2014-06-27 10:19:41 <Luke-Jr> Plarkplark_: doesn't need to be on sidechains per se
 579 2014-06-27 10:19:48 <Plarkplark_> What you essentially would want is that Bitcoin can be moved off the network in a way, and people can run all kinds of crappy networks on it - having to incentive to keep that sidechain running themselfs without hurting the main network. With a possibility to return btc back to the main network.
 580 2014-06-27 10:20:17 <Plarkplark_> If, for instance, the storage would bloat it would be the sidechain's problem - not bitcoin.
 581 2014-06-27 10:20:44 <jcorgan> the idea of merge mined sidechains is an excellent one, but i've seen no movement to create the facility inside bitcoin to allow it.  i know there must be people furiously working on it somewhere but it's either in stealth mode or i'm just not that informed.
 582 2014-06-27 10:21:24 <jcorgan> it's not a complaint; just expressing surprise
 583 2014-06-27 10:21:25 <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: you'd have to talk to adam back to see where that's at
 584 2014-06-27 10:21:37 <Luke-Jr> he's getting funding for it and stuff
 585 2014-06-27 10:24:03 <Plarkplark_> What if you would fire up a P2P network with like 10 nodes. They run Sidechain-blahcoin. Every node goes into "generate" mode and generates part of a multisig key. (8/10 or something). BItcoin is moved to that addr. They now have "proof of sidechain".
 586 2014-06-27 10:24:21 <Plarkplark_> TO move it back to the main chain: 80% (f/a) of the nodes need to agree to move it back.
 587 2014-06-27 10:25:00 <dsnrk> nodes can't be used for voting. that's not sybil safe.
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 589 2014-06-27 10:25:19 <Plarkplark_> I'm not a smart man ;)
 590 2014-06-27 10:25:40 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: well, that's possible (what he describes)
 591 2014-06-27 10:25:47 <Luke-Jr> if they negotiate the nodes themselves
 592 2014-06-27 10:25:49 <jcorgan> there are better ways already established for moving btc back and forth to/from a sidechain, at least in theory.  now we need code.
 593 2014-06-27 10:26:01 <Luke-Jr> the better ways require a softfork
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 595 2014-06-27 10:26:53 <jcorgan> right.  it's an exciting capability and i wish there were a way i could contribute to its development.
 596 2014-06-27 10:26:57 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: sort of pointless if only a select few can be the "voters" though. I got the impression they were interested parties, not trusted.
 597 2014-06-27 10:27:31 <dsnrk> I think I missed the point of that entirely.
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 600 2014-06-27 10:30:09 <Plarkplark_> Ok. But you could create a PoW kind of blockchain. 1 Minute blockrate, for a period of time. The blockchain then evenly starts distributing the private keys among the mined blocks. After this genesis period the "vote" is complete.
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 602 2014-06-27 10:31:32 * SomeoneWeird removes highlight for 'adam'
 603 2014-06-27 10:31:34 <dsnrk> all that sort of thing is not the hard bit. the hard bit is the softfork.
 604 2014-06-27 10:31:37 * SomeoneWeird glares at Luke-Jr
 605 2014-06-27 10:34:53 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: why is my thermostat smoking?
 606 2014-06-27 10:35:22 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: something to do with calming bees?
 607 2014-06-27 10:35:41 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: well, it's no doubt related to using resistors as "cooling", but .. :|
 608 2014-06-27 10:36:28 MaxSan has joined
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 610 2014-06-27 10:37:12 * Luke-Jr working on http://gtvhacker.com/index.php/Nest_Hacking#Nest_backplate_interface :p
 611 2014-06-27 10:38:02 karc has joined
 612 2014-06-27 10:38:10 <dsnrk> hacking embedded devices is always the most fun. extra props if you can turn the Nest into a one button Bitcoin wallet. address entry is in morse.
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 614 2014-06-27 10:39:58 * Luke-Jr wonders just how effective scotch tape is at insulation
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 628 2014-06-27 10:52:50 <gdm85> Luke-Jr: check the batteries, they might have leaked and be frying some juice for you ;)
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 633 2014-06-27 10:58:50 <Luke-Jr> gdm85: I'd have to teardown to get to that
 634 2014-06-27 10:59:59 <Luke-Jr> although sadly, it decided the battery was low immediately after and shut off networking
 635 2014-06-27 11:00:11 <Luke-Jr> and no idea if it's charging or not
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 660 2014-06-27 11:42:02 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr: sorry i'm drunk i can't exactly parse what you said
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 709 2014-06-27 12:51:03 <dipendra> how to get status of transaction when coins are successfully sent to other guy
 710 2014-06-27 12:51:19 <dipendra> I mean the transaction status from our wallet just like :- https://dogechain.info/tx/1c7fbf820e0d352dac9ea9bfba74600e4afe36bceca7592301bd5c6948c0a0c8
 711 2014-06-27 12:51:40 <sipa> gettransaction <txid>
 712 2014-06-27 12:52:06 <sipa> (only works for transactions relevant to your wallet)
 713 2014-06-27 12:53:11 <dipendra> @sipa yup i have tried it but the details array is not getting updated
 714 2014-06-27 12:53:22 <sipa> details array?
 715 2014-06-27 12:54:15 <dipendra> when trying  gettransaction <txid> in reponse to that... We will have a json which contains details array
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 717 2014-06-27 12:54:51 <dipendra> in which the send and other end receiver information is added
 718 2014-06-27 12:56:00 <dipendra> but in my case 'details' array only have sender information even if the transaction made successfully
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 720 2014-06-27 12:56:59 <sipa> the only thing you expect to change after confirmation is the number of confirmations, and blockhash
 721 2014-06-27 12:57:10 <sipa> details is set when the transaction is created
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 728 2014-06-27 13:00:00 <dipendra> @sipa okey but how do we know about the exact no of confirmations which designates the transaction success
 729 2014-06-27 13:00:22 <sipa> you define what success is
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 731 2014-06-27 13:00:52 <sipa> confirmations are a measure for how hard it is to revert your transaction
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 733 2014-06-27 13:05:21 <dipendra> @sipa okey here I used success for complete transfer of coins to other end
 734 2014-06-27 13:05:29 <dipendra>  but by looking into no of confirmations how do we confirm the complete transactions
 735 2014-06-27 13:05:56 <sipa> #bitcoin please
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 737 2014-06-27 13:08:45 <dipendra> @sipa okey...
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 739 2014-06-27 13:10:26 <t7> do you guys remember that project for a banking server type thing where clients had to sign all their transactions and the server could never change a clients balance and stuff?
 740 2014-06-27 13:10:32 c0rw1n has joined
 741 2014-06-27 13:10:40 <t7> i remember some people talking about it in here
 742 2014-06-27 13:10:45 <t7> it was on github
 743 2014-06-27 13:13:10 HANTI is now known as hanti
 744 2014-06-27 13:13:24 <dipendra> @sipa so in which situation Do we confirm the complete transfer of bitcoins to other end
 745 2014-06-27 13:13:59 orperelman has joined
 746 2014-06-27 13:14:20 <sipa> #bitcoin
 747 2014-06-27 13:14:29 <sipa> this channel is about development of bitcoin
 748 2014-06-27 13:16:25 <t7> i wonder if you could create a service where the banker doesn't even know the balance of accounts (after an initial transaction)
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 753 2014-06-27 13:20:19 <t7> might need homomorphic encryption to prove the value of the outputs is = value of inputs
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 756 2014-06-27 13:20:40 <t7> bitcoin 2.0
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 762 2014-06-27 13:27:18 <gdm85> t7: generally, ideas are cheap, while giving legs to a project requires hard work
 763 2014-06-27 13:27:32 <t7> pff
 764 2014-06-27 13:27:58 <t7> spoil sport
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 773 2014-06-27 13:39:21 <btc123> how big is the current UTXO set, and what is the easiest way to grab it from bitcoind?
 774 2014-06-27 13:39:41 rebroad has joined
 775 2014-06-27 13:39:59 <rebroad> Hi all..
 776 2014-06-27 13:40:56 <rebroad> I wondered if there are people willing to help me test my latest pull request? I'd really like to see the functionality added sooner than later. My previous pull requests have been ignored for months and then closed due to being tricky to rebase. I spent quite a lot of time developing #4431, so I'd really appreciate it not stagnating like the others did...
 777 2014-06-27 13:44:10 W0rmDr1nk has joined
 778 2014-06-27 13:45:42 <btc123> rebroad: looks like an intereseting pull
 779 2014-06-27 13:45:50 <btc123> id ack it if i had any say ;)
 780 2014-06-27 13:46:05 <wumpus> btc123: just help testing then you have something to say
 781 2014-06-27 13:46:05 <btc123> add to mailing list
 782 2014-06-27 13:46:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: +1
 783 2014-06-27 13:47:28 <wumpus> it's one of the bottlenecks in development that few people are testing pulls
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 785 2014-06-27 13:48:27 <btc123> if thats the case, the foundation should hire 2-3 test engineers to test pulls full-time
 786 2014-06-27 13:48:37 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: it would be a lot easier to review if it didn't have a bunch of other crap in there with it
 787 2014-06-27 13:48:43 <btc123> if they actually cared about bitcoin, that is
 788 2014-06-27 13:48:53 <wumpus> btc123: WUT?
 789 2014-06-27 13:49:02 <wumpus> why should the foundation have to hire people to do your work?
 790 2014-06-27 13:49:04 <Luke-Jr> btc123: instead of Gavin or wumpus?
 791 2014-06-27 13:49:15 <wumpus> anyhow, not #bitcoin-dev talk
 792 2014-06-27 13:49:28 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, I included only what I felt was a core part of the changes.
 793 2014-06-27 13:49:43 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: changing the log IPs to nodeids isn't.
 794 2014-06-27 13:49:48 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, it makes a lot of changes to debug.log, which was needed in order to debug what was happening and thus fix the problem.
 795 2014-06-27 13:50:03 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, node ids was one such changed that was needed.
 796 2014-06-27 13:50:04 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: is there a reason that isn't merged yet btw?
 797 2014-06-27 13:50:09 <btc123> wumpus, if its a bottleneck, they should fix it with money.  anyway, i'll test this pull later tonight if i i have time
 798 2014-06-27 13:50:23 <gmaxwell> rebroad: This seems redundant with the work Sipa has been doing to incrementally merge headers first synchronization.
 799 2014-06-27 13:50:25 <wumpus> btc123: 'they should fix it with money'? oh? how much are you paying the bitcoin foundation?
 800 2014-06-27 13:50:29 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, plus, i thought for ages people were saying it's better not to log IPs
 801 2014-06-27 13:50:59 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: again, I agree that we should merge s/IP/nodeid, but it's not related to *this* PR, and just makes reviewing it harder.
 802 2014-06-27 13:51:03 <rebroad> gmaxwell, it's much due to headersfirst3 that the problem came in the first place.
 803 2014-06-27 13:51:13 <gmaxwell> rebroad: luke is complaining that the changes merge seperate concerns, e.g. the logging could be in another pull that this is on top of.
 804 2014-06-27 13:51:17 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, I wasn't able to separate them without a lot of work.
 805 2014-06-27 13:51:32 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: because more important stuff got ahead
 806 2014-06-27 13:51:37 <rebroad> the node id pull request was done months ago in order to be in place ready for this one. I can't separate them.
 807 2014-06-27 13:52:12 <rebroad> it doesn't make sense to remove the node ids from it, they are a large part of the useful debug info
 808 2014-06-27 13:52:29 <rebroad> i can change to addresses instead but that would surely be a regression
 809 2014-06-27 13:52:30 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: sounds like it's just a matter of time until the nodeid is merged (see wumpus above), so you're better off asking once that is done
 810 2014-06-27 13:52:53 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: but I wouldn't spend much time on this. as gmaxwell points out, sipa is working on the problem in a better way
 811 2014-06-27 13:53:04 <wumpus> your pulls are usually messy and hard to review rebroad
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 813 2014-06-27 13:54:09 <rebroad> I raised a pull request 2 years ago that made block download do a better job than it currently does in master...  sipa's changes over the last year haven't come close to the improvements i made two years ago, in terms of avoiding stuck IBD
 814 2014-06-27 13:54:22 micronxd has joined
 815 2014-06-27 13:54:27 <wumpus> also it appears you haven't even replied to sipa's comment yet
 816 2014-06-27 13:54:44 <rebroad> wumpus, yes, i realise this... which is why I'd really like someone to clone it and make it less messy... the functionality is there, but I'm not quite good enough at c++ to know some of the intricacies
 817 2014-06-27 13:55:03 <wumpus> rebroad: he's trying to improve things in the long run, toward parallel block download
 818 2014-06-27 13:55:07 <wumpus> that's *hard*
 819 2014-06-27 13:55:10 <rebroad> wumpus, I made a real effort with this one, hence the commits separating so much of it. I really hope it's above my usual standard
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 821 2014-06-27 13:55:32 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: iff sipa doesn't expect headers-first to be ready for 0.10, it'd be worth *minimal* time to review your stuff (after nodeid is merged), but it's just not that important when it's bound to be replaced soonish
 822 2014-06-27 13:55:48 <rebroad> wumpus, I think this pull of mine certainly goes a long way to that.. the only thing needed now would be to enable multiple syncnodes, and that can fit in quite easily with the changes I've made
 823 2014-06-27 13:56:15 ahmed_sleep is now known as ahmed_
 824 2014-06-27 13:56:33 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, it's frustrating when my work is replaced by stuff that doesn't work as well though.. why replace it if it works well?
 825 2014-06-27 13:57:26 <wumpus> rebroad: ok that sounds good -- the problem with your logic before has been that it was short-sighted logic, like 'disconnect a peer that sends a wrong block' instead of not requesting it in the first place
 826 2014-06-27 13:57:31 <gmaxwell> jesus christ you've again reintroduced code that randomly hangs up on peers
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 829 2014-06-27 13:57:55 <gmaxwell> You _cannot_ just hang up on peers when they take >10 seconds to respond.
 830 2014-06-27 13:57:57 <rebroad> I don't understand why most of the things I write, are NACKed, and then a few months later, someone else does them, usually in an identify way, or a less reliable way, and they are then ACKed
 831 2014-06-27 13:58:13 <gmaxwell> Because you do crap like that.
 832 2014-06-27 13:58:20 <rebroad> gmaxwell, don't be ridiculous please. there is nothing random about it
 833 2014-06-27 13:58:21 <wumpus> gmaxwell: exactly
 834 2014-06-27 13:58:36 <rebroad> and why wait 2 minutes when 10 seconds is enough to know when it's failed? actually, 5 seconds is sufficient.
 835 2014-06-27 13:58:51 <wumpus> you can't have a P2P network if you program the nodes to be sociopatic 
 836 2014-06-27 13:58:55 <rebroad> gmaxwell, please be a little more respectfu
 837 2014-06-27 13:59:44 <rebroad> wumpus, why is it sociopathic any more than disconnecting after 2 minutes? My original pull 2 years ago didn't even disconnect, but actually allowed for nodes to recover. Sipa's stuck block code is actually more sociopathic than that.
 838 2014-06-27 14:00:18 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: serial downloading is slower than parallel
 839 2014-06-27 14:00:22 <wumpus> rebroad: we don't disconnect after two minutes, the ping limit is ~20 minutes now
 840 2014-06-27 14:00:25 <rebroad> my code is actually very sociable. e.g. I prefer to cater for diverse behaviour from other nodes, rather than make assumptions
 841 2014-06-27 14:00:33 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, yes, I know.
 842 2014-06-27 14:01:02 <btc123> gmaxwell: perhaps explain why you can't just hang up on peers when they take > 10 sec to respond, so that rebroad can better understand the issue and make changes to the pull
 843 2014-06-27 14:01:03 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, that can be a later pull. But if you want parallel now, I can code it.
 844 2014-06-27 14:01:08 <gmaxwell> rebroad: in this ull, someone in a place where a block takes longer than 10 seconds to download will just constantly disconnect their peers instead of making progress.
 845 2014-06-27 14:01:25 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: sipa is already coding it, why reinvent his efforts?
 846 2014-06-27 14:01:36 <rebroad> gmaxwell, you are making a false assumption I think... let me explain
 847 2014-06-27 14:02:00 <btc123> rebroad: thats a good point -- maybe nodes in a rural african village need a few minutes
 848 2014-06-27 14:02:01 <rebroad> gmaxwell, why don't you run it and see? most of the time, it's <200ms between block reception and last block reception
 849 2014-06-27 14:02:06 <Diablo-D3> http://fastcompression.blogspot.com/2014/06/debunking-lz4-20-years-old-bug-myth.html
 850 2014-06-27 14:02:10 <rebroad> so 10000 is very generous
 851 2014-06-27 14:02:24 <rebroad> even on a GPRS network, it is never that slow
 852 2014-06-27 14:02:29 <rebroad> I know, I used to use one
 853 2014-06-27 14:02:39 <gmaxwell> rebroad: because correctness isn't just about what I observe in a few minutes. You can randomly change characters in the source code and if it compiles it will likely run okay for a bit.
 854 2014-06-27 14:02:49 <sipa> if you ask for 500 recent blocks during IBD, it can take minutes to receive them...
 855 2014-06-27 14:02:51 <rebroad> it measures reception. i.e. any progress.. not just the time since a last complete block
 856 2014-06-27 14:02:52 <btc123> rebroad: have you run some tests from nodes in cuba or liberia?
 857 2014-06-27 14:02:53 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: I've seen ping times of 10 seconds on GPRS
 858 2014-06-27 14:03:29 <rebroad> Luke-Jr, do you really want to be downloading from such a slow connection? to me, it makes sense not to select such a slow link for IDB
 859 2014-06-27 14:03:34 <gavinandresen> I was thinking…  there are hyper-optimized content delivery networks that aren't very expensive on a per-gigabyte. I wonder how hard it would be to code up a patch that tried fetching from a CDN URL instead of 'getblock' (but fell back to getblock if the http fetch failed)
 860 2014-06-27 14:03:53 <rebroad> 10s ping does not make a good sync node...
 861 2014-06-27 14:04:05 <gmaxwell> I use bitcoin over a 10 second RTT from time to time (you can see me complaining about it on IRC), but it's not just RTT that matters, its also the time it takes to seralize the block. This change means that no one could use bitcoin, once blocks are 1mb on a link slower than 800kbit/sec.
 862 2014-06-27 14:04:10 <rebroad> it would be a detriment to the network IMHO
 863 2014-06-27 14:04:25 <btc123> gavinandresen: interesting idea.
 864 2014-06-27 14:04:27 * jgarzik starts rebasing pointlessly broken code
 865 2014-06-27 14:04:44 <sipa> if you ask for 500 blocks, and then send a ping, it can take minutes before you see the pong
 866 2014-06-27 14:04:50 <sipa> even if it's the fastest peer you have
 867 2014-06-27 14:05:10 <Luke-Jr> rebroad: if *I* am on that connection, *all* the peers will be that slow.
 868 2014-06-27 14:05:16 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: broken because of somebody's obsessive-compulsive desire over syntax?
 869 2014-06-27 14:05:17 <rebroad> sipa, maybe ping times are irrelevant then
 870 2014-06-27 14:05:44 <rebroad> sipa, my code doesn't currently use the ping time. It's still using the selection algorithm you coded
 871 2014-06-27 14:06:06 <rebroad> sipa, a better selection criteria might be bytes/second instead then
 872 2014-06-27 14:06:17 <sipa> well the current code is pretty bad, but it's always been bad
 873 2014-06-27 14:06:25 <rebroad> also, it has 16 blocks in flight, so it's unlikely to find a long pause given so many blocks are queued up
 874 2014-06-27 14:06:48 Sambler has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 875 2014-06-27 14:07:02 <sipa> it's really a preparation for parallel download, where the criterion can become "just disconnect your slowest peer, if he's holding you up"
 876 2014-06-27 14:07:12 <sipa> which needs no special constants
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 878 2014-06-27 14:08:17 Hasimir has quit (Changing host)
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 880 2014-06-27 14:08:19 <rebroad> sipa, would you be willing to have a look at my pull please? I'd really appreciate it if at least some of the code could be used. I have tested it well, and the 10 second thing does sound short I know, but it actually is reasonable based on the testing. when a block sticks for 10 seconds, it rarely means it's a good choice for a sync node.
 881 2014-06-27 14:08:21 gnuborg has joined
 882 2014-06-27 14:08:56 <rebroad> it reslects a sync node based on various timeouts, each of which can be different
 883 2014-06-27 14:08:57 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, +1 on http fetch try...   but we do tend to have a better replication factor than most torrents on the P2P network today.  we just stick with one peer too long, which hides our massive replication factor.
 884 2014-06-27 14:09:40 <rebroad> 1) delay between getblocks and invs 2) delay between getdata and block reception, and 3) time since last block reception (even partial-blocks count)
 885 2014-06-27 14:09:47 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, yes (though of course that answer is PoV dependent :))   Had a dependent PR merged, then somebody tweaked syntax, and broke main PR
 886 2014-06-27 14:09:58 <sipa> rebroad: i want to get rid of the sync node
 887 2014-06-27 14:10:05 <rebroad> sipa, me too!
 888 2014-06-27 14:10:12 <wumpus> jgarzik: serves you well for using annoying syntax :p
 889 2014-06-27 14:10:19 <jgarzik> Saw this in Linux kernel too.  Cleanup patches are in general good....  but they have costs too.  You break more useful patches.
 890 2014-06-27 14:10:19 <sipa> it's just a hack to make sure we are always asking for new blocks from someone
 891 2014-06-27 14:10:29 Plarkplark_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 892 2014-06-27 14:10:34 <rebroad> sipa, I had to really rejig it a lot to incorporate your sync code, but it actually can transition to multiple sync nodes quite easily for parallel download
 893 2014-06-27 14:10:34 Namworld has joined
 894 2014-06-27 14:11:00 <sipa> rebroad: not "multiple sync nodes", we need to just download everything from everyone
 895 2014-06-27 14:11:11 <sipa> the only reason we don't, is because we don't know in advance what to ask for
 896 2014-06-27 14:11:20 <sipa> which is why i've been working on headers-first
 897 2014-06-27 14:11:22 <rebroad> sipa, what is the difference? I'm just definiing "sync node" as someone to download blocks from.
 898 2014-06-27 14:11:33 <jgarzik> wumpus, it is a useful syntax when you have many cascading 'if' blocks, each of which get a comment
 899 2014-06-27 14:11:41 <sipa> rebroad: we download blocks from everyone
 900 2014-06-27 14:11:42 <jgarzik> wumpus, but that is not visible without future PRs
 901 2014-06-27 14:11:47 <jgarzik> wumpus, which is why you ask, not assume
 902 2014-06-27 14:11:52 <wumpus> jgarzik: I really don't like it
 903 2014-06-27 14:11:54 <sipa> rebroad: the sync node is just there to make sure we've always asked someone
 904 2014-06-27 14:12:02 <sipa> rebroad: but we download whatever anyone announces
 905 2014-06-27 14:12:37 <wumpus> jgarzik: not even with 1000 cascading if/else blocks you can convince me that adding blank lines after ; or } and before an else is a good idea
 906 2014-06-27 14:12:49 <rebroad> sipa, it was that that was causing the huge orphan lists though.. isn't it better to download the blocks in the right order (assuming no headers first)
 907 2014-06-27 14:13:04 <sipa> rebroad: yes, but we don't know the order
 908 2014-06-27 14:13:07 <wumpus> jgarzik: it bothers me when reading the code and I think the if {} clause is finished, then suddenly some lines later.. OH, else
 909 2014-06-27 14:13:39 <wumpus> jgarzik: and we've never had that in the bitcoin core code as far as I know
 910 2014-06-27 14:13:47 <rebroad> sipa, i don't think this pull of mine in any way interferes with your headersfirst changes does it?
 911 2014-06-27 14:13:52 <Luke-Jr> (FWIW, I think the else and if can/should be on their own lines, and comments between the else and if are okay, but a blank line makes no sense to me)
 912 2014-06-27 14:13:53 <rebroad> sipa, at least, I hope not.
 913 2014-06-27 14:14:11 <rubensayshi> so, no more (white)spaces anywhere at all then?
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 915 2014-06-27 14:14:28 <Luke-Jr> rubensayshi: nobodyh said that, and it's not worth arguing over
 916 2014-06-27 14:14:30 <wumpus> rubensayshi: yes, let's create an opposite strawman argument! that will help
 917 2014-06-27 14:14:34 <rebroad> sipa, there are a few variables i created which duplicate some you created, but that was only because the way your code uses them was ambiguous in places and potentially could change. e.g. nLastBlockProcessed
 918 2014-06-27 14:15:02 <rebroad> I did use nLastBlockReceived though - as it did just what I needed it to do
 919 2014-06-27 14:15:33 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, adding a comment in between is fine
 920 2014-06-27 14:16:34 <rebroad> hmmm... I'm running autogen.sh and configure and then make, but I'm getting timedata.h not found...
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 922 2014-06-27 14:17:10 <jgarzik> As first observed by Donald Knuth in Literate Programming, you want to create "paragraphs" with your code.  Most code logic should not go more than 5-10 lines without a blank line.  You see _many_ patching errors over time with mashed-together code, once a lot of developers start reading and patching the code.
 923 2014-06-27 14:17:21 <jgarzik> Bitcoin Core definitely suffers from the mashed-together problem.
 924 2014-06-27 14:17:38 <wumpus> jgarzik: I agree with that *in general* but not in this specific case
 925 2014-06-27 14:17:42 <jgarzik> But that is speaking generally, not azbout this specific issue.
 926 2014-06-27 14:17:45 <rebroad> jgarzik, are you referring to my pull?
 927 2014-06-27 14:17:47 <btc123> i use whitespace often
 928 2014-06-27 14:19:54 <jgarzik> Therefore, in command processing or token parsing, where a long trail of 'if' statements are simulating a 'switch' statement, it is a "normal exception" to separate code blocks with whitespace.
 929 2014-06-27 14:19:56 <jgarzik> e.g.
 930 2014-06-27 14:19:58 <wumpus> jgarzik: the same argument could be used the other way, blank lines around else statements can cause merge errors, when someone tries to solve a merge conflict, doesn't notice the else due to the distance
 931 2014-06-27 14:20:05 <jgarzik> if (strMethod == "alice")
 932 2014-06-27 14:20:09 <jgarzik> else if (strMethod == "bob")
 933 2014-06-27 14:20:13 <jgarzik> else if (strMethod == "charlie")
 934 2014-06-27 14:20:39 <jgarzik> _presuming_ that there is (a) a lot of code in between or (b) they call a function/method which is effective its own paragraph.
 935 2014-06-27 14:20:40 <wumpus> jgarzik: anyhow let's just agree to disagree here, I don't feel like arguing this
 936 2014-06-27 14:21:18 <jgarzik> wumpus, direct experience here says different.  You get the sum of programmers' experiences coming into a new project and patching, it becomes useful.
 937 2014-06-27 14:21:18 <wumpus> we should settle down on one if/else if/else syntax, document that in the coding style, and that's it
 938 2014-06-27 14:21:22 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 939 2014-06-27 14:21:49 * sipa votes for {} on the same line (and that's all i'll add)
 940 2014-06-27 14:21:57 <jgarzik> it's not about one programmer or another programmer prefs, but what is more likely to be readable and compatible with the total mass
 941 2014-06-27 14:22:09 <wumpus> sipa: so } else {    and } else if(...) { ?
 942 2014-06-27 14:22:15 <sipa> yes
 943 2014-06-27 14:22:17 <wumpus> sipa: +1
 944 2014-06-27 14:22:27 <sipa> and void methodname(args) {
 945 2014-06-27 14:22:27 <Luke-Jr> ☹
 946 2014-06-27 14:22:35 <Luke-Jr> }\nelse\nif(…)\n{ please
 947 2014-06-27 14:22:44 <wumpus> for methods I prefer the { to be on the next line
 948 2014-06-27 14:22:44 <jgarzik> sipa, } else { sure
 949 2014-06-27 14:22:49 <jgarzik> wumpus, +1
 950 2014-06-27 14:22:55 <jgarzik> functions/methods: next line
 951 2014-06-27 14:23:01 <jgarzik> everything else: cuddle
 952 2014-06-27 14:23:07 <jgarzik> *with one exception :)
 953 2014-06-27 14:23:09 <wumpus> usually because method signatures get very long, so tacking on the { means you hardly see it :p
 954 2014-06-27 14:23:29 <sipa> that's an independent problem, and means you need to split up the signature
 955 2014-06-27 14:23:34 <wumpus> also it's closer to what we already have
 956 2014-06-27 14:24:07 <Luke-Jr> too much time spent on formatting --
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 959 2014-06-27 14:24:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well if we define it now and add it to doc/coding-style.md we can stop arguiing
 960 2014-06-27 14:25:08 <jrick> go fmt
 961 2014-06-27 14:25:11 * jrick sees himself out
 962 2014-06-27 14:25:13 <wumpus> see also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4398/files
 963 2014-06-27 14:25:13 * sipa votes: write a clang-format config file, define it as the canonical style to be used, don't be too picky in reviews, and at the end of a merge window, apply clang-format (which can be done by multiple people and should give the exact same result)
 964 2014-06-27 14:25:16 <jgarzik> coding-style says "{" on a line by itself
 965 2014-06-27 14:25:18 <jgarzik> puke
 966 2014-06-27 14:25:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: and then Diapolo jumps whenever there's some harmless deviation
 967 2014-06-27 14:25:40 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, that's pretty annoying sometimes..
 968 2014-06-27 14:25:48 <helo> consistent indentation should make placement of { mostly irrelevant </shed>
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 970 2014-06-27 14:26:01 <Luke-Jr> as long as it's readable, who cares :x
 971 2014-06-27 14:26:16 <sipa> consistency helps
 972 2014-06-27 14:26:31 <sipa> it helps to not make the wrong assumptions when reviewing
 973 2014-06-27 14:26:35 <wumpus> it helps to avoid discussions
 974 2014-06-27 14:26:42 * gavinandresen votes: steal a clang-format config file from some other popular project. Then what sipa said.
 975 2014-06-27 14:26:52 <wumpus> gavinandresen: +1
 976 2014-06-27 14:26:58 <wumpus> is there any project that does thsi?
 977 2014-06-27 14:27:06 <sipa> Google :p
 978 2014-06-27 14:27:17 <gavinandresen> Cool, Google is popular.
 979 2014-06-27 14:27:18 <Luke-Jr> why clang-format instead of some common code-formatting program?
 980 2014-06-27 14:27:20 <Luke-Jr> :P
 981 2014-06-27 14:27:22 <sipa> (and its config is shipped with clang-format)
 982 2014-06-27 14:27:35 <wumpus> google is not open source, so we don't want to steal their clang format file...
 983 2014-06-27 14:27:43 <sipa> wumpus: ^
 984 2014-06-27 14:27:57 <wumpus> I'm really looking for open source projects
 985 2014-06-27 14:28:01 askuck has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 986 2014-06-27 14:28:09 <sipa> well we'll need to make some modifications anyway
 987 2014-06-27 14:28:15 <sipa> or every line everywhere will change
 988 2014-06-27 14:28:17 <wumpus> there are many places where bitcoin innovates, but source code indentation shoulndn't be one of them
 989 2014-06-27 14:28:28 <Luke-Jr> LLVM has their own style for it I think
 990 2014-06-27 14:28:29 <wumpus> stealing something that works and is freely available would be better
 991 2014-06-27 14:29:03 <wumpus> the LLVM style is pretty OK from what I remember
 992 2014-06-27 14:29:04 <sipa> wumpus: clang-format ships with a few styles already, "LLVM" and "Google" among them
 993 2014-06-27 14:29:09 <gavinandresen> lets form a code-format-convention committee and write a BIP.  Wait, no, better: an RFC, so everybody else will use what we decide........
 994 2014-06-27 14:29:16 <gavinandresen> :)
 995 2014-06-27 14:29:40 <wumpus> gavinandresen: lol!
 996 2014-06-27 14:29:51 <sipa> so: {} on separate lines for functions/methods, on the same line for other control flow blocks
 997 2014-06-27 14:29:55 <sipa> what indentation?
 998 2014-06-27 14:30:08 <wumpus> same as now, four spaces
 999 2014-06-27 14:30:22 <sipa> what indentation for private/public ?
1000 2014-06-27 14:30:34 <sipa> i'll try to match what is already used
1001 2014-06-27 14:30:44 <sipa> what max line length?
1002 2014-06-27 14:30:47 <wumpus> yes -- try to match what is already used
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1004 2014-06-27 14:30:53 <wumpus> 120
1005 2014-06-27 14:30:55 <sipa> 80 is pretty standard, but i find that pretty short
1006 2014-06-27 14:31:01 <Luke-Jr> tabs for indentation! <.<
1007 2014-06-27 14:31:15 <sipa> 120 is fine to me
1008 2014-06-27 14:31:19 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: please...
1009 2014-06-27 14:31:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that's what they're there for :|
1010 2014-06-27 14:31:40 * gavinandresen votes for max-111-length lines (then runs away)
1011 2014-06-27 14:31:48 DougieBot5000 has joined
1012 2014-06-27 14:32:11 [nsh] has joined
1013 2014-06-27 14:32:49 <wumpus> gavinandresen: except every 11th line, it should be 121 long
1014 2014-06-27 14:33:03 * Luke-Jr wonders why clang-format hard-codes the builtin styles
1015 2014-06-27 14:33:18 <sipa> they are just basisses to derive from, i think
1016 2014-06-27 14:33:27 <sipa> so take anything you're not specifying from
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1021 2014-06-27 14:35:05 <jgarzik> sipa, 80 LL preferred, 120 OK....   as long as the code reformatter is not __joining__  already broken lines!
1022 2014-06-27 14:35:21 <wumpus> yes, it should certainly not be arbitrarily joining lines :)
1023 2014-06-27 14:35:26 <jgarzik> breaking overly long lines, or warning about them, is fine.
1024 2014-06-27 14:35:29 <Diablo-D3> you mean 79
1025 2014-06-27 14:35:50 * Luke-Jr goes back to reverse engineering his Nest so he can have a thermostat..
1026 2014-06-27 14:35:52 <andytoshi> 72,  i am using an 80x24 terminal and have line numbers on
1027 2014-06-27 14:35:59 <wumpus> sigh...
1028 2014-06-27 14:36:13 <Luke-Jr> side note: decent editors can wrap long lines at window length just fine
1029 2014-06-27 14:36:17 <wumpus> I'm using a 40x20 MSX screen and want everyone to adapt to me!
1030 2014-06-27 14:36:25 <Luke-Jr> (but manual line breaks make that ugly)
1031 2014-06-27 14:36:30 <sipa> i only have a pixel, you insensitive clods
1032 2014-06-27 14:36:34 <Diablo-D3> yeah, I prefer no line breaks tbh
1033 2014-06-27 14:36:41 <Diablo-D3> I only do them when it clarifies code
1034 2014-06-27 14:37:00 rdymac has quit (Excess Flood)
1035 2014-06-27 14:37:09 <wumpus> sipa: well at least a color pixel I hope?
1036 2014-06-27 14:37:35 <jgarzik> I always use 80 column terms, and that is standard window-opening width by default
1037 2014-06-27 14:37:39 <cdecker> sipa: what happened to your DNS Server?
1038 2014-06-27 14:37:40 <jgarzik> however, as Luke noted, editors will wrap
1039 2014-06-27 14:37:43 <wumpus> or is it one of those old fashioned pixels which can only be yellow, cyan or magenta or black
1040 2014-06-27 14:37:54 <cdecker> It nosedived a few minutes ago
1041 2014-06-27 14:38:08 <jgarzik> 80 columns is default on all modern terminals, on linux/osx/windows
1042 2014-06-27 14:38:15 <sipa> cdecker: out of disk space..
1043 2014-06-27 14:38:25 <wumpus> sigh
1044 2014-06-27 14:38:27 <Diablo-D3> 80 columns default is older than any of those
1045 2014-06-27 14:38:35 <jgarzik> HOWEVER, that does not imply that clang static checker should limit lines to 80.
1046 2014-06-27 14:38:35 <Diablo-D3> it comes from line printers being that wide
1047 2014-06-27 14:38:50 <wumpus> terminals are easy to resize to slightly wider...
1048 2014-06-27 14:38:51 <wumpus> right
1049 2014-06-27 14:39:00 <jgarzik> Several LOC in bitcoin are annoying is wrapped down to 80
1050 2014-06-27 14:39:01 <cdecker> Ah k
1051 2014-06-27 14:39:09 <jgarzik> *if
1052 2014-06-27 14:39:20 <cdecker> Is china doing anything actively with bitcoin DNS?
1053 2014-06-27 14:39:25 <sipa> cdecker: up again
1054 2014-06-27 14:39:32 <wumpus> jgarzik: yes, I usually find wrapped lines more annoying than useful either, espeically if they are arbitrarily wrapped instead of intelligently
1055 2014-06-27 14:39:36 <cdecker> According to https://www.whatsmydns.net/#A/seed.bitcoin.sipa.be sipas node was still working
1056 2014-06-27 14:39:58 rdymac has joined
1057 2014-06-27 14:40:37 <cdecker> sipa: thanks it was a bit disconcerting to have 4 out of 6 default DNS servers down/returning no results
1058 2014-06-27 14:41:00 <Luke-Jr> cdecker: mine is down because a major internet backbone is DoSing my server if I run it -.-
1059 2014-06-27 14:41:11 <Luke-Jr> and I haven't had the time to figure out how to deal with them
1060 2014-06-27 14:41:21 <gmaxwell> Fortunately bitcoin continues working with them all down.
1061 2014-06-27 14:41:37 <jgarzik> It really depends on static checker's behavior.  Ideal is difficult to program for:  "terminals default to 80. that is the vast majority. many programmers resize their windows larger and don't care, or use non-terminal editors and don't care.  additionally, many lines of code should not be auto-wrapped, and best fit in >80 char single line, based on human judgement."
1062 2014-06-27 14:41:47 <jgarzik> Therefore 100 or 120 and no auto-breaks is best, IMO.
1063 2014-06-27 14:41:58 <jgarzik> but I'll yell at people if too many lines > 80
1064 2014-06-27 14:42:19 damethos_ has quit (Quit: Bye)
1065 2014-06-27 14:42:27 <Luke-Jr> maybe I should take the time to write a public rant against XO.net for harming Bitcoin? :p
1066 2014-06-27 14:43:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: did you confirm that it was the spider part that was making it blackhole you?
1067 2014-06-27 14:43:14 tombtc has joined
1068 2014-06-27 14:43:25 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the spider part? not that specifically, no :/
1069 2014-06-27 14:43:35 <cdecker> Luke-Jr: do you think Bitcoin is the target of that or is it a coincidence?
1070 2014-06-27 14:43:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is there a trivial way to disable that part only? :D
1071 2014-06-27 14:44:00 <gmaxwell> cdecker: whenever he starts it XO blackholes whatever IP its running on.
1072 2014-06-27 14:44:00 <Luke-Jr> cdecker: probably some automation on their end that misidentifies it. but I have no way to appeal or complain
1073 2014-06-27 14:44:26 <cdecker> Hm, that's not good
1074 2014-06-27 14:44:30 <Luke-Jr> abuse@xo.net just gets ignored
1075 2014-06-27 14:44:38 <cdecker> As usual xD
1076 2014-06-27 14:44:44 <jgarzik> heh
1077 2014-06-27 14:44:55 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057 has access to some inter-backbone ticket system with a ticket on this, XO just ignores it
1078 2014-06-27 14:45:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: could try running the spider part over tor... would actually be useful to have one of the seeds returning a starkly different view of the network in any case.
1079 2014-06-27 14:45:24 <gmaxwell> Though if its the req side that they're misclassifying I have no suggestion.
1080 2014-06-27 14:45:37 <gmaxwell> Any of these more centeralized mechenisms always end up getting blocked.
1081 2014-06-27 14:46:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what part?
1082 2014-06-27 14:46:50 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1083 2014-06-27 14:47:47 <wizkid057> ticket has been open for a while, no answers from them... but, this is pretty normal for many low priority/single-user-affected issues
1084 2014-06-27 14:48:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: allowing infinite linelength, and respecting existing breaking decisions is possible yes
1085 2014-06-27 14:48:51 <wumpus> sipa: but it won't join lines, just split them?
1086 2014-06-27 14:49:04 <Luke-Jr> wizkid057: "affected" as if it's a mere issue :|  they should pay more attention when they're actively causing someone a problem
1087 2014-06-27 14:49:20 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1088 2014-06-27 14:49:34 YoY has joined
1089 2014-06-27 14:49:51 <sipa> wumpus: i don't know; the documentation is unclear - if you do specify a line length limit, i think it will join and split as needed
1090 2014-06-27 14:50:08 <sipa> though it's usually pretty intelligent, with different scores assigned to different types of breaking
1091 2014-06-27 14:50:20 <sipa> if you don't specify a line length limit, it leaves breaking alone
1092 2014-06-27 14:50:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: would be useful to figure out if its the spider or the dns traffic that causes them to blackhole things.
1093 2014-06-27 14:50:37 <wumpus> sipa: may be better to not specify a limit for now, it's not something there is a lot of argument about
1094 2014-06-27 14:50:40 <wizkid057> Luke-Jr: well, keep in mind you're doing something pretty non-standard.  Not many clients have a need to connect to thousands of IPs, not maintain those connections, etc... from the perspective of some security algo it probbaly looks like you're scanning random IPs for vulnerabilities
1095 2014-06-27 14:50:51 <sipa> wumpus: we can start by setting it to 0, and maybe in a later stage try to find a nice value
1096 2014-06-27 14:50:56 <wumpus> sipa: +1
1097 2014-06-27 14:50:57 <wizkid057> *probably
1098 2014-06-27 14:51:01 maraoz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1099 2014-06-27 14:51:04 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1100 2014-06-27 14:51:50 non2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1101 2014-06-27 14:51:55 Chief_Panda has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1102 2014-06-27 14:52:04 <sipa> oh, the worst bikeshed possible
1103 2014-06-27 14:52:07 <sipa> int* a
1104 2014-06-27 14:52:09 <sipa> or int *a
1105 2014-06-27 14:52:09 <sipa> ?
1106 2014-06-27 14:52:19 <wumpus> let's see what is used most in the current source
1107 2014-06-27 14:53:25 Cory has joined
1108 2014-06-27 14:53:29 <wumpus> seems that usually the * or & is immediately after the data type
1109 2014-06-27 14:53:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: can I disable bitcoin-seeder's crawler only?
1110 2014-06-27 14:53:42 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what would it return?
1111 2014-06-27 14:53:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: whatever it last saw :P
1112 2014-06-27 14:53:55 <gavinandresen> int* pna;  is the Official Satoshi Coding Style. But he's not here, so I vote to get rid of the type prefixes.
1113 2014-06-27 14:54:08 <wumpus> gavinandresen: me too
1114 2014-06-27 14:54:13 <wumpus> but let's keep the int* part
1115 2014-06-27 14:54:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: just run the crawler over tor.
1116 2014-06-27 14:54:28 <wumpus> instead of int *pna ... though I really don't care deeply about this
1117 2014-06-27 14:54:37 <GAit> gavinandresen: +1
1118 2014-06-27 14:54:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't really want to run tor.
1119 2014-06-27 14:55:03 <gavinandresen> yeah, I really don't care about any of this, either.
1120 2014-06-27 14:55:10 <wumpus> what does LLVM use?
1121 2014-06-27 14:55:10 <gmaxwell> I vaguely believe that just running it inside the torify wrapper should be enough, I think torify will leave the udp alone.
1122 2014-06-27 14:55:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: 'int *' rather than 'int* ' is hard-coded into C sadly
1123 2014-06-27 14:55:47 <gavinandresen> I do care about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3883/  and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4250  and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4365
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1125 2014-06-27 14:56:24 <sipa> PointerBindsToType: false
1126 2014-06-27 14:56:30 <sipa> in style:LLVM
1127 2014-06-27 14:56:53 <wumpus> gavinandresen: ACK on 4365
1128 2014-06-27 14:57:23 <gmaxwell> WRT coding style, I generally don't care and I'm happy to try to emulate the style other people perfer (so long as they'll be forgiving if I mess up here and there).  One thing I'm not super fond of about our current behavior is that we will do if(condition)\n    unbraced_statement;  ... I generally prefer to always brace statements unless they are on the same line as the condition, due to mistakes from thinking something is in the ...
1129 2014-06-27 14:57:29 <gmaxwell> ... conditon (or loop) when its not, though I don't recall us having too many issues there.
1130 2014-06-27 14:57:42 <gavinandresen> wumpus: merged.
1131 2014-06-27 14:58:15 <wumpus> gmaxwell: always adding {}'s is usually my preference as well, although it can be overly verbose in some cases so I'm not sure with that as general rule
1132 2014-06-27 14:58:42 <sipa> i'm fine with always using braces
1133 2014-06-27 14:58:48 <sipa> though we very rarely do so now
1134 2014-06-27 14:59:00 <wumpus> sipa: right
1135 2014-06-27 14:59:14 <gavinandresen> I wonder why fees for confirm-in-next-block transactions jumped up so much yesterday…. :  http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/fee_graph.html
1136 2014-06-27 14:59:19 <gmaxwell> wumpus: the rule I use in my private code is always brace unless the whole statement is one line. But I think we don't like one line loops/ifs.
1137 2014-06-27 14:59:23 samesong has joined
1138 2014-06-27 14:59:25 * Luke-Jr dislikes elongating single-statement if.
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1140 2014-06-27 15:01:22 <sipa> i can't find a setting for allowing unbraced if...
1141 2014-06-27 15:02:23 <Luke-Jr> maybe it's always true? :P
1142 2014-06-27 15:02:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: one of the daala contributors managed to get clang-formater working on the daala coding style (which is unbraced if and only if it fits on one line), I can find out how he did that.
1143 2014-06-27 15:02:56 Subo1977 has joined
1144 2014-06-27 15:03:01 <GAit> skipping {} can only lead to terrible bugs, adding them allows for more explicit intent. +1
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1148 2014-06-27 15:04:25 <gavinandresen> …. this conversation is why I voted to steal the coding style from another project that has already painted this shed....
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1153 2014-06-27 15:05:17 <GAit> more important than which style is consistency, i'm all for some style from some other project. I used to use uncrustify too, not sure what people think about that.
1154 2014-06-27 15:05:29 <wumpus> gavinandresen: I think the conversation is going quite well, it's not like there is a lot of disagreement (except Luke-Jr maybe :-) )
1155 2014-06-27 15:05:31 <Luke-Jr> unrelated to specific formatting, it'd be nice if there was a bot that just modified the PR to be formatted, so things couldn't sneak past review
1156 2014-06-27 15:05:59 <GAit> i used to have uncrustify as a git commit hook
1157 2014-06-27 15:06:01 <Luke-Jr> I was inclined to try to abuse a single-line if to introduce an exploit (to see if anyone caught it before merging) not long ago (but I never found a nice place to hide something)
1158 2014-06-27 15:06:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: you could force people to run a script before pushing
1159 2014-06-27 15:06:17 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: though that sort of rules out windows developers :p
1160 2014-06-27 15:06:28 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: good idea. pull-tester could run the code formatter on any changed files, and complain if syntax changed….
1161 2014-06-27 15:06:29 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: what's windows?
1162 2014-06-27 15:06:33 <sipa> pulltester could enforce that applying clang-formatter on it has 0 effect
1163 2014-06-27 15:06:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: then it's just annoying IMO
1164 2014-06-27 15:06:51 <GAit> oh clang-formatter is probably very similar to uncrustify
1165 2014-06-27 15:06:54 <sipa> but i'm fine with being lax
1166 2014-06-27 15:07:04 <sipa> and just run the formatter once in the merge window
1167 2014-06-27 15:07:06 <wumpus> yes, we could periodically run it over the whole code
1168 2014-06-27 15:07:08 <wumpus> right
1169 2014-06-27 15:07:15 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that won't affect reviewing
1170 2014-06-27 15:07:17 <wumpus> an auto-diapolo
1171 2014-06-27 15:07:30 <gmaxwell> I don't have any great recommendations. In daala we use https://git.xiph.org/?p=daala.git;a=blob_plain;f=doc/coding_style.html but it's a C project (so some of the style choices would be a little different from C++), and some people don't love the style, and its very different from the existing bitcoin one. I'm generally of the view that code style is unsolvable. I do like machine achievable code style.
1172 2014-06-27 15:07:32 <Luke-Jr> we really ought to detect potential exploits before merging if possible
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1174 2014-06-27 15:07:43 <wumpus> who is talking about exploits?
1175 2014-06-27 15:07:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: the only protest I have to the pulltester enforce is that if I run a different version of clang than the pulltester we might get different results.
1176 2014-06-27 15:08:02 <sipa> gmaxwell: agree
1177 2014-06-27 15:08:15 <wumpus> the pulltester should really test the code, not judge code style IMO
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1180 2014-06-27 15:08:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if we ever get testing to the point where we could have pulltester about code decreasing coverage it would make it harder to hide things in commits.
1181 2014-06-27 15:08:48 <gmaxwell> but we're still a long way from that.
1182 2014-06-27 15:08:49 <wumpus> big change I'll start to ignore it if it starts to be too fussy
1183 2014-06-27 15:08:54 <wumpus> chance*
1184 2014-06-27 15:09:13 <wumpus> right now pulltester fail = serious problem
1185 2014-06-27 15:09:14 <btc123> isn't there a tool that will convert one code style to another?  i dont see what the fuss is - chose a standard that github uses, and let devs convert back and forth to whatever format they like
1186 2014-06-27 15:09:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: indeed, that solves it better than worrying over formatting
1187 2014-06-27 15:09:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well it could note the formating seperately so you could ignore jsut that part.
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1191 2014-06-27 15:09:45 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I started mostly ignoring pulltester failures when it failed for stupid reasons like out of disk space or server trouble
1192 2014-06-27 15:09:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well that usually gets fixed pretty soon!
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1195 2014-06-27 15:11:15 <sipa> it's been getting stuck like once every two days still
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1205 2014-06-27 15:14:48 <wumpus> gavinandresen: nice that #4250 splits GetFee into GetMinRelayFee and CWallet::GetMinimumFee
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1208 2014-06-27 15:17:32 <wumpus> gavinandresen: really needs an #define GAVINS_FAVORITE_NUMBER 11 tho :)
1209 2014-06-27 15:18:13 <gavinandresen> #define BEST_NUMBER_IN_THE_WORLD 11  you mean
1210 2014-06-27 15:18:19 <wumpus> ha
1211 2014-06-27 15:19:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: 0xb
1212 2014-06-27 15:19:14 <sipa> #define BEST_NUMBER_IN_THE_WORLD (ANSWER_TO_THE_ULTIMATE_QUESTION_OF_LIFE_THE_UNIVERSE_AND_EVERYTHING + 2) / 4
1213 2014-06-27 15:19:25 <Luke-Jr> it's called "hu" in tonal.
1214 2014-06-27 15:19:49 <gavinandresen> huh.  hu.  who knew.
1215 2014-06-27 15:20:15 <gavinandresen> why do I feel like I'm speaking Doge....
1216 2014-06-27 15:20:24 <Luke-Jr> ☺
1217 2014-06-27 15:20:32 * sipa recently flew with "WOW airlines" to inceland
1218 2014-06-27 15:20:37 <sipa> such flight
1219 2014-06-27 15:20:41 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1220 2014-06-27 15:21:04 <gavinandresen> my dirty little secret today: I'm wearing the Doge T-shirt they gave me in Amsterdam…. don't tell anybody.
1221 2014-06-27 15:21:27 <Jouke> pics or it didn't happen
1222 2014-06-27 15:21:46 <Luke-Jr> Jouke: exactly.
1223 2014-06-27 15:22:00 <wumpus> hehehe
1224 2014-06-27 15:22:02 roconnor has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1225 2014-06-27 15:22:12 <GAit> sipa: lol
1226 2014-06-27 15:22:12 <gavinandresen> right, exactly, didn't happen.  Good show.
1227 2014-06-27 15:22:37 <Einewton> lol
1228 2014-06-27 15:22:45 <Jouke> ^_^
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1249 2014-06-27 15:44:23 <JackH> hey gavin, you did this today: https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/482544093696753664
1250 2014-06-27 15:44:34 <JackH> does it mean we can send complex transactions and that those will be mined now?
1251 2014-06-27 15:44:45 <JackH> or is this "yet to be added"
1252 2014-06-27 15:45:00 <Luke-Jr> JackH: it means they will be relayed.
1253 2014-06-27 15:45:10 <Luke-Jr> changes to Bitcoin Core don't affect miners inherently
1254 2014-06-27 15:45:17 <JackH> ah yes, true
1255 2014-06-27 15:45:20 <Luke-Jr> miners still need to choose to make the same changes
1256 2014-06-27 15:45:27 <JackH> well at least relayed then
1257 2014-06-27 15:45:38 <JackH> but, I assume this is a 0.9.3 feature?
1258 2014-06-27 15:45:44 <gmaxwell> 0.10
1259 2014-06-27 15:45:56 <Luke-Jr> JackH: of course, Eligius will probably mine it for you..
1260 2014-06-27 15:45:57 <Luke-Jr> already\
1261 2014-06-27 15:46:02 <gmaxwell> Eligius was already doing something along those lines though, so you already can get them mined (with a little awkwardness)
1262 2014-06-27 15:46:35 <JackH> wait a sec. This feature already existed in our Bitcoin-qt?
1263 2014-06-27 15:47:13 <Luke-Jr> JackH: uh, this isn't relevant to the GUI at all
1264 2014-06-27 15:47:19 <Luke-Jr> JackH: or even the Bitcoin protocol
1265 2014-06-27 15:47:25 <Luke-Jr> it's just a relay policy
1266 2014-06-27 15:47:33 <JackH> ahh gotcha
1267 2014-06-27 15:47:35 <cdecker> You just had to make sure Eligius somehow got it and it would mine it
1268 2014-06-27 15:47:43 <JackH> so its pretty much in effect now
1269 2014-06-27 15:47:49 <JackH> all over
1270 2014-06-27 15:47:58 <Luke-Jr> JackH: if you choose to make it in effect..
1271 2014-06-27 15:48:06 <JackH> yes, I understand
1272 2014-06-27 15:48:09 <gmaxwell> This discussion is not moving in a productive way.
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1274 2014-06-27 15:49:09 <gmaxwell> JackH: the change merged today hasn't had any effect. It's just software on a website. It will have an effect when people deploy it. What Luke and I were pointing out was that some people had already deployed similar changes (years ago), so it's also not as simple as saying that its not in effect yet either.
1275 2014-06-27 15:49:14 <gmaxwell> More clear?
1276 2014-06-27 15:49:46 <Luke-Jr> in other news, I merged auto_solomine
1277 2014-06-27 15:49:55 <JackH> yes very clear. the confusion was that if this is/was/will be a part of the client in any way
1278 2014-06-27 15:49:59 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1279 2014-06-27 15:50:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sweet.
1280 2014-06-27 15:50:12 <Luke-Jr> hopefully maaku won't get upset
1281 2014-06-27 15:50:13 <Luke-Jr> :p
1282 2014-06-27 15:50:21 <gmaxwell> Did maaku not like it?
1283 2014-06-27 15:50:26 <Luke-Jr> I didn't mention it to him
1284 2014-06-27 15:50:34 <Luke-Jr> but in theory it breaks Freicoin unless people add --no-local-bitcoin
1285 2014-06-27 15:50:46 <Luke-Jr> Freicoin mining*
1286 2014-06-27 15:51:19 <gmaxwell> Cool. How does it do that?  (cool because I assume that means that its imposing some of the local state on the miner)
1287 2014-06-27 15:51:24 YoY has joined
1288 2014-06-27 15:51:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: BFGMiner can't handle multiple blockchains within the same instance, at the moment
1289 2014-06-27 15:52:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: still need to figure out how to make that work further than localhost.
1290 2014-06-27 15:53:09 <Luke-Jr> ?
1291 2014-06-27 15:54:08 <gmaxwell> e.g. bfgminer on standalone miners on the local network can't do the same thing... so we're still not zero-touch solo mining.
1292 2014-06-27 15:54:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: right, that'd be a security issue in theory
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1294 2014-06-27 15:54:53 <Luke-Jr> trusting the network layer isn't a good idea IMO
1295 2014-06-27 15:55:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sorta, but so long as mining is completely unauthenticated it's no different largely.
1296 2014-06-27 15:55:32 <gmaxwell> Its something that could be disabled once something was configured.
1297 2014-06-27 15:55:55 <gmaxwell> e.g. use the auto-local daemon as the local daemon unless something is explicitly configured.
1298 2014-06-27 15:56:02 <maaku> i think people will figure out --no-local-bitcoin. not that it matters much after we switch to merged mining
1299 2014-06-27 15:56:08 <maaku> need compact spv commitments first though :(
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1303 2014-06-27 15:58:12 <gmaxwell> I've still not dissuaded myself that we should be offering a GBT-like functionality over the P2P port.
1304 2014-06-27 15:59:00 <maaku> gmaxwell: i'm having trouble parsing that, are you pro or con?
1305 2014-06-27 15:59:21 <gmaxwell> I am pro.
1306 2014-06-27 15:59:53 <maaku> i think it's very advantageous for lots of non-mining reasons
1307 2014-06-27 16:00:16 <gmaxwell> I was trying to convince myself to be con, but I have failed.  It may enable some totally braindead activity like mining using random nodes as the data source, but braindeadness happens regardless.
1308 2014-06-27 16:00:36 <Luke-Jr> I don't see any use for it
1309 2014-06-27 16:01:00 <maaku> yeah you can already shoot yourself in the foot with SPV mining
1310 2014-06-27 16:01:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: coupled with a facility to find bitcoin nodes on the local network it allows zero conf local mining (unless configured otherwise)
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1312 2014-06-27 16:01:31 <maaku> on the non-mining front, it lets you peek into other nodes transaction selection mechanisms
1313 2014-06-27 16:01:41 <maaku> with some useful priors it lets you get a better smart fee estimate
1314 2014-06-27 16:01:47 <gmaxwell> basically all ideas we have to get people doing better decenteralized mining are frustrated by having to configure authentication.
1315 2014-06-27 16:01:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not any better than just exposing standard GBT without authentication
1316 2014-06-27 16:02:08 <Luke-Jr> maaku: transaction selection of non-miners is worthless
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1318 2014-06-27 16:02:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: its just different there in respect to not exposing the rpc port is a good security practice.
1319 2014-06-27 16:02:46 <maaku> Luke-Jr: only when miners really do have different selection policies
1320 2014-06-27 16:02:53 <gmaxwell> (and a non-json GBT would probably have much better scalablity)
1321 2014-06-27 16:02:55 <maaku> which, let's face it, they don't right now
1322 2014-06-27 16:02:59 <Luke-Jr> maaku: which they should
1323 2014-06-27 16:03:07 <Luke-Jr> maaku: no point giving people tools to assume they do
1324 2014-06-27 16:03:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: e.g. if gbt works on rpc without auth I fear having more issues where people expose their rpc port to places they shouldn't and get wallets robbed.
1325 2014-06-27 16:03:48 <Luke-Jr> p2p port could speak HTTP
1326 2014-06-27 16:04:22 <Luke-Jr> alternatively, no reason GBT couldn't be used over TCP similar to stratum either
1327 2014-06-27 16:05:28 <gmaxwell> I wonder if jeff's json code is faster than the current really slow stuff.
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1334 2014-06-27 16:10:21 <mr_burdell> Is it a bad idea to calculate transaction fee in the getrawtransaction RPC call?
1335 2014-06-27 16:10:36 <mr_burdell> I made a patch that does it on my node, but wasn't sure if anyone else might want it
1336 2014-06-27 16:10:45 <mr_burdell> or if there's a better way
1337 2014-06-27 16:10:55 <Luke-Jr> might be useful
1338 2014-06-27 16:11:16 <mr_burdell> I'll open a PR and see what ppl think sometime this weekend
1339 2014-06-27 16:11:58 <maaku> mr_burdell: getrawtransaction should return the raw transaction bytes only
1340 2014-06-27 16:12:04 <maaku> do you mean decoderawtransaction?
1341 2014-06-27 16:12:14 <mr_burdell> this is only for verbose getrawtransaction
1342 2014-06-27 16:12:15 <gmaxwell> decoderawtransaction isn't guarentted to be able to retrieve the inputs.
1343 2014-06-27 16:12:40 <mr_burdell> i guess that's fair... no need to add extra data
1344 2014-06-27 16:12:41 <gmaxwell> I believe that verbose getrawtransaction can, though perhaps I'm missing a case.
1345 2014-06-27 16:13:06 <Luke-Jr> if it can't, it can't. no reason not to when it can tho :P
1346 2014-06-27 16:13:12 <mr_burdell> but the other way to calculate it for a client would be to get all the inputs and add their amount to subtract the output amounts
1347 2014-06-27 16:13:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, there are reasons to not do that.
1348 2014-06-27 16:13:33 <gmaxwell> E.g. if you fail to emit the fee when you can't people might erroniously assume that it was feeless.
1349 2014-06-27 16:14:17 <mr_burdell> it does fail on coinbase transactions obviously...
1350 2014-06-27 16:14:24 <gmaxwell> I think it would be fine to do in the verbose getrawtransaction case, unless there is some case I'm missing where the inputs are unavailable.
1351 2014-06-27 16:14:28 <mr_burdell> so I don't have it add anything for that
1352 2014-06-27 16:14:34 <gmaxwell> Well it shouldn't fail there, coinbase txn is always zero fee. :)
1353 2014-06-27 16:14:58 <mr_burdell> would it be better to omit the fee on coinbase or to set it to 0?
1354 2014-06-27 16:15:57 <gmaxwell> I personally prefer fields be consistent when its at all sensible for them to be... makes it less likely that someone writing code while looking at one case will have incorrect code in the other case.
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1387 2014-06-27 16:47:18 <phillipsjk> Ok, I was finally able to look at the tcpdump of the failed send of my transaction to my Bitcoin node using "sc sendtx-node"
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1389 2014-06-27 16:48:28 <phillipsjk> There appears to be no evil ISP blocking. Instead, sx sendtx "hides" the transaction in a packet with the FIN flag set.
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1391 2014-06-27 16:49:34 <phillipsjk> I think the failure may be a bug on both ends :P
1392 2014-06-27 16:50:06 <gmaxwell> it's normal to have FIN set on the final packet in a connection.
1393 2014-06-27 16:50:33 <phillipsjk> Ye but is it normal for that pakcket to have important data?
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1399 2014-06-27 16:52:20 <gmaxwell> phillipsjk: it can.
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1401 2014-06-27 16:54:45 <phillipsjk> I turned on (net) debuging as asked and sent the transaction a 3rd time: bitcoind. did not appear to notice it.
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1404 2014-06-27 16:55:47 <phillipsjk> Since the transaction was buried in the block-chain, I would have expected some kind of "duplicate transaction" error.
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1411 2014-06-27 17:00:31 <phillipsjk> Does bitcoind still have not have bug tracking system? (because you don't want so many bugs you have to track them)
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1413 2014-06-27 17:01:30 <gmaxwell> phillipsjk: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues?state=open
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1416 2014-06-27 17:03:46 <phillipsjk> I suppose I am supposed to search before opening a new one :)
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1419 2014-06-27 17:06:35 <gmaxwell> phillipsjk: if you're going to open an issue about not logging something on a duplicate transaction, don't— we intentionally don't to not fill up the disk with harmless messages. If you turn up the debugging level it will log them.
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1424 2014-06-27 17:07:06 <phillipsjk> The problem is that the transaction is not processed at all.
1425 2014-06-27 17:07:31 <phillipsjk> I did turn up the debug level.
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1427 2014-06-27 17:09:32 <phillipsjk> I guess If I want to be really nice, I can look up the exact line of code where thing go wrong.
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1434 2014-06-27 17:15:36 <gavinandresen> phillipsjk: in open source, God helps those who help themselves.
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1436 2014-06-27 17:16:46 <phillipsjk> Going through source-code would take me another week though :P
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1438 2014-06-27 17:17:13 <sipa> define "is not processed at all "
1439 2014-06-27 17:17:17 <sipa> what are you doing
1440 2014-06-27 17:17:20 <sipa> what do you expect
1441 2014-06-27 17:17:23 <sipa> what do you see
1442 2014-06-27 17:19:00 <phillipsjk> That is too long for IRC. essentially, I sent the transaction to my Bitcoin node, and it did not appear in the memory pool.
1443 2014-06-27 17:19:22 <cdecker> Which interface did you send it through?
1444 2014-06-27 17:19:27 <cdecker> RPC or P2P?
1445 2014-06-27 17:19:51 <phillipsjk> P2P failed, RPC worked.
1446 2014-06-27 17:21:16 <cdecker> And the TX was already known to bitcoind?
1447 2014-06-27 17:21:23 <Luke-Jr> what's a quick way to identify a checksum algo?
1448 2014-06-27 17:21:53 <phillipsjk> Only on the 2nd and 3rd attempt.
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1450 2014-06-27 17:23:10 <cdecker> So you tried a new TX for both P2P and RPC first?
1451 2014-06-27 17:24:11 <phillipsjk> I will just post the bug report and you can read it. I have been documenting this for a week.
1452 2014-06-27 17:24:44 <cdecker> Ok, I'll take a look at it :-0
1453 2014-06-27 17:24:51 <cdecker> :-)
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1467 2014-06-27 17:42:18 <phillipsjk> dang it, can't enable JS in the middle of editing a post :P
1468 2014-06-27 17:43:17 <phillipsjk> (was kind of expecting that, so did not lose data)
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1475 2014-06-27 17:48:04 <phillipsjk> Looks like it is worse than that: I can't enable JS while logged in :P (I hate Web 2.0)
1476 2014-06-27 17:48:49 YoY has joined
1477 2014-06-27 17:49:08 <phillipsjk> ...it won't  let me log out now.
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1491 2014-06-27 18:04:59 <phillipsjk> Huh, apparently the difficulty was that it was trying to use my buggy flash player (light-spark)
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1496 2014-06-27 18:08:01 * phillipsjk swears at not being able to copy&paste "about" dialog boxes
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1499 2014-06-27 18:10:27 <mr_burdell> gavinandresen: for your fee estimates, do you round tx size up to the nearest KB? the tx fees seem really high
1500 2014-06-27 18:10:59 <gavinandresen> mr_burdell: no, no rounding.
1501 2014-06-27 18:11:09 <mr_burdell> isn't that how the wallets work though?
1502 2014-06-27 18:11:26 <mr_burdell> i feel like it would be a better view of what's happening if you round up to nearest kb like the wallets do
1503 2014-06-27 18:11:38 <gavinandresen> mr_burdell: that is how the reference implementation worked in the last release, although that will be changing.
1504 2014-06-27 18:11:54 <mr_burdell> but the miners haven't changed as far as I can tell
1505 2014-06-27 18:11:57 <mr_burdell> and that's what matters
1506 2014-06-27 18:12:32 <gavinandresen> the reference implementation transaction selection code for miners hasn't rounded up in a long time.
1507 2014-06-27 18:12:41 <gavinandresen> … it is just "sort by fee-per-kilobyte"
1508 2014-06-27 18:12:50 <mr_burdell> hmm... ok
1509 2014-06-27 18:13:00 <gavinandresen> (and fit as many as will fit and are over the "fee so small I consider it free" threshold)
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1522 2014-06-27 18:30:34 <phillipsjk> aww, can't attach packet captures :P
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1545 2014-06-27 18:56:07 <phillipsjk> cdecker, finally posted it. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4432
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1552 2014-06-27 18:58:24 <cypherdoc> can someone help me with the concept of compressed keys?
1553 2014-06-27 18:59:25 <gmaxwell> It's probably not something you need to know anything about. But regardless the general rule of IRC is to ask and don't ask to ask.  Also— this should be taken to #bitcoin
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1560 2014-06-27 19:04:18 <cypherdoc> will do
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1569 2014-06-27 19:21:09 <cypherdoc> no one can answer over there so i'm gonna have to try here.  from BSE: "The 03 can be 02 because the discarded value has to be derived from the preserved value and one extra bit of info is needed. That is because there are two roots [plus and minus] when taking a square root."  my Q is how does an odd vs. even Y come into this?
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1572 2014-06-27 19:26:00 <gmaxwell> cypherdoc: I asked you to take your question to #bitcoin. :(
1573 2014-06-27 19:26:17 <gmaxwell> I'll respond to you there.
1574 2014-06-27 19:26:19 <cypherdoc> gmaxwell: i did but no one could or would answer
1575 2014-06-27 19:26:40 <cypherdoc> gmaxwell: ok, i'll try again
1576 2014-06-27 19:26:45 <gmaxwell> You did, 10 minutes after I asked and I was getting food. :)
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1695 2014-06-27 20:45:09 <axion> can someone tell me how to detect whether a given blockhash is an orphan or not with the api?
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1700 2014-06-27 20:47:02 <mr_burdell> axion: it says -1 confirmations for an orphan
1701 2014-06-27 20:47:23 <axion> with what command?
1702 2014-06-27 20:47:52 <mr_burdell> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/a3fca8ae818482f7cae5
1703 2014-06-27 20:48:35 <axion> thanks
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1786 2014-06-27 21:56:37 <AndersAA> Can someone explain what's going on here? Getting around 60 of these a minute in debug.log: rocessMessages(tx, 1 bytes) : Exception 'CDataStream::read() : end of data' caught, normally caused by a message being shorter than its stated length
1787 2014-06-27 21:57:10 <AndersAA> (Running v0.9.99.0-343feec)
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1805 2014-06-27 22:10:25 <kazcw> AndersAA: you must be connected to a malfunctioning (not standard bitcoind) peer; that message wouldn't print if the checksum didn't validate, so someone's sending out "tx" messages with 1-byte payloads, which are certainly invalid
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1807 2014-06-27 22:11:19 <AndersAA> kazcw: I see Snoopy around a lot - could that be it?
1808 2014-06-27 22:11:38 <AndersAA> Well never mind. As long as it isn't a bug.
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1833 2014-06-27 22:51:58 <jcorgan> AndersAA: check with Canuck24
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1835 2014-06-27 22:59:11 <AndersAA> jcorgan: Thanks. The issue has passed though. I'll look further into it if it starts flooding my debug again.
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1877 2014-06-27 23:49:13 <dsnrk> AndersAA: yeah, it's probably Canuck24. he claims to have fixed his ping/pong responses but he just keeps of sending broken ones.
1878 2014-06-27 23:49:34 <sipa> what site/system does he run?
1879 2014-06-27 23:49:49 rhg has joined
1880 2014-06-27 23:49:52 <rhg> warning
1881 2014-06-27 23:49:52 <rhg>  you may be  watched
1882 2014-06-27 23:49:52 <rhg> do usa&israel use the internet(facebook,youtube,twitter, chat rooms ..ect)to spy??
1883 2014-06-27 23:49:52 <rhg> do usa&israel use the internet 2 collect informations,,can we call that spying??
1884 2014-06-27 23:49:52 <rhg> do they record&analyse everything we do on the internet,,can they harm you using these informations??
1885 2014-06-27 23:49:52 rhg has quit (Excess Flood)
1886 2014-06-27 23:49:53 <gribble> Error: "can" is not a valid command.
1887 2014-06-27 23:49:53 <gribble> Error: "can" is not a valid command.
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1889 2014-06-27 23:50:09 <sipa> offtopic
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1891 2014-06-27 23:51:01 <dsnrk> sipa: ugh, I don't know. he has written his own full node which he is selling to people to use behind web wallets and exchanges and things. I tried to talk him out of letting it talk with the real network, but that seems to have failed badly.
1892 2014-06-27 23:51:35 <dsnrk> it was originally a "full node" implementation that didn't execute any scripts :C
1893 2014-06-27 23:52:05 <AndersAA> Great... It's back
1894 2014-06-27 23:52:15 <dsnrk> it just trundles around testnet3 flooding invalid messages.
1895 2014-06-27 23:52:22 <sipa> heh, fun
1896 2014-06-27 23:52:29 <sipa> oh well, people will do silly things
1897 2014-06-27 23:53:11 <AndersAA> "version" : 70002,
1898 2014-06-27 23:53:11 <AndersAA>         "subver" : "",
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1900 2014-06-27 23:53:57 <AndersAA> That looks like the sinner.
1901 2014-06-27 23:54:32 <dsnrk> it's not connected to me now, but it's the same behaviour. I doubt two people could screw up a very easy function of the node in the same way.
1902 2014-06-27 23:56:43 <dsnrk> sipa: I know everybody else has seen it before and just shrugs it off as "shit happens", but I'm going to be really annoyed when it blows up and lots of people lose money because of it.
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1905 2014-06-27 23:59:18 <AndersAA> Why doesn't this count as misbehaviour?
1906 2014-06-27 23:59:53 <dsnrk> I think gmaxwell or somebody suggested it probably should