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 241 2014-06-29 00:49:12 <warren> Whoa.  A master build testnet node was just banned by a 0.9.2.1 node.
 242 2014-06-29 00:49:20 <btc123> does the alert message signature have to be included in checksum? the wiki isn't clear, since it calls all the data before the signature the 'payload'
 243 2014-06-29 00:49:27 <btc123> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#alert
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 247 2014-06-29 00:50:44 <kazcw> btc123: yes, checksumming happens at the network protocol level
 248 2014-06-29 00:50:59 <btc123> also, can anyone suggest a good way to go about debugging error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX decode failed"}
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 250 2014-06-29 00:51:20 <btc123> i suppose i'll have a fun time manually trial and error fixing ;(
 251 2014-06-29 00:52:04 <btc123> kazcw: so, the alert payload + signature is the actual 'payload' that should be calcualted for vars in the header?
 252 2014-06-29 00:52:38 <kazcw> btc123: the entire serialized alert is checksummed
 253 2014-06-29 00:52:55 <btc123> alright.. thanks
 254 2014-06-29 00:53:32 <btc123> i coded a custom c program to sign the message. hope im doing it right... the ecdsa signature is the r + s values together right?
 255 2014-06-29 00:53:33 <kazcw> btc123: the source code is the reference for this kind of thing; the wiki is not always clear, up to date, or accurate
 256 2014-06-29 00:53:55 <btc123> kazcw: good to know.
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 266 2014-06-29 00:56:53 <btc123> kazcw; which files do i want to look at in the source to see how messages are built?
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 268 2014-06-29 00:57:05 <dsnrk> "SetBestChain: 1 of last 100 blocks above version 2"
 269 2014-06-29 00:57:20 <dsnrk> testnet comes up with some weird stuff.
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 274 2014-06-29 00:58:59 <dsnrk> actually that's not even correct, the most recent blocks are all version 2
 275 2014-06-29 01:04:15 <dsnrk> can anybody come up with a reasoning for that?
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 287 2014-06-29 01:26:38 <btc123> where are the magic bytes defined in the source code?
 288 2014-06-29 01:26:52 <dhill> dsnrk: the source code says it will give that message if a block comes in higher than the current version
 289 2014-06-29 01:28:30 <dsnrk> dhill: I thought I read somewhere that versions higher than 2 are rejected. that's probably not correct though by the sound of things.
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 297 2014-06-29 01:37:34 <dhill> dsnrk: which block?
 298 2014-06-29 01:38:15 <dsnrk> actually good point, let me go back a few blocks and see if I can find one higher than 2.
 299 2014-06-29 01:39:14 <dhill> what timestamp did you get that message?
 300 2014-06-29 01:41:08 <dsnrk> my logs aren't timestamped, that message is after every UpdateTip
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 302 2014-06-29 01:41:49 <dsnrk> in the last 100 blocks there's none with a version > 2
 303 2014-06-29 01:42:24 <dhill> find the previous UpdateTip of the first SetBestChain message
 304 2014-06-29 01:44:15 <dsnrk> my logs are super spammy, it was sometime before 0000000061fbbc624dc157b9e2b98aa96bc605e2012e73430431d96a951c3921, but I've no idea when.
 305 2014-06-29 01:44:45 <dhill> looks like 265322?
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 308 2014-06-29 01:46:18 <dsnrk> haha, yeah of course it was
 309 2014-06-29 01:46:28 <dsnrk> it's forked bitcoin-ruby off, that's why I didn't see it
 310 2014-06-29 01:46:39 <dsnrk> block version 123456789 :)
 311 2014-06-29 01:47:22 <dhill> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/rawblock/0000000000014b351588a177be099e39afd4962cd3d58e9ab5cbe45a9cf83c8a
 312 2014-06-29 01:47:30 <dhill> yea, version is not 2
 313 2014-06-29 01:49:14 <dsnrk> well that's cute. wonder how long it'll take somebody to mine on on mainnet that breaks coinbase and friends.
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 322 2014-06-29 02:13:10 <PRab> I know this is controversial, but at some point, we should really stop considering bitcoind "the gold standard" and every other implementation buggy.
 323 2014-06-29 02:14:06 <PRab> If only bitcoind follows 1 fork, and most/all other implementations follow a different fork, then I would call that a bug in bitcoind.
 324 2014-06-29 02:14:10 <dsnrk> that's not going to happen. eventually the core rules will be isolated and used in other clients. then there's no issues of consensus.
 325 2014-06-29 02:15:26 <PRab> dsnrk: Maybe not in the near future, but I hope eventually the "protocol" is formalized separate from the bitcoind implementation.
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 327 2014-06-29 02:17:27 <PRab> Right now several merchants aren't using bitcoind as their engine, so they get hurt every time there is a fork. If (eventually) bitcoind isn't the most widely spread implementation, then it doesn't make sense for the majority of client to have to upgrade to follow the behavior of the minority,.
 328 2014-06-29 02:17:38 <PRab> (I know all of this is very long-term)
 329 2014-06-29 02:18:18 <dsnrk> that's a problem of entirely their own making though
 330 2014-06-29 02:20:03 <PRab> dsnrk: The fact that bitcoind doesn't fit everybody's needs is their problem?
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 332 2014-06-29 02:22:02 <dsnrk> nothing stops you from using bitcoin as your data source and building whatever wallet structures you want on your side.
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 348 2014-06-29 02:50:46 <btc123> uhhh, is the 2nd hash here wrong? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Hashes
 349 2014-06-29 02:51:28 <btc123> http://www.xorbin.com/tools/sha256-hash-calculator
 350 2014-06-29 02:51:37 <btc123> plug in first hash 2cf24dba5fb0a30e26e83b2ac5b9e29e1b161e5c1fa7425e73043362938b9824
 351 2014-06-29 02:52:14 <btc123> output is d7914fe546b684688bb95f4f888a92dfc680603a75f23eb823658031fff766d9
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 353 2014-06-29 02:52:21 <btc123> if someone can confirm, i'll fix the wiki
 354 2014-06-29 02:52:39 <btc123> lots of mistakes on there
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 359 2014-06-29 02:54:39 <jcorgan> btc123: you are hashing the hex-encoded ascii, not the original binary
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 361 2014-06-29 02:55:25 <btc123> oh, shit
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 372 2014-06-29 03:00:43 <btc123> sendrawtransaction can be used to send any message type right?
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 502 2014-06-29 07:12:49 <fanquake> Looking at the Dos_tests, there is a list of timestamps and nbits for the first 9 blockchain checkpoints. However only the first two match the actual timestamp/bits of the blocks they are reffering to. The next 7 have timestamps/bits that dont match what's actually in the blockchain. Is that intentional? https://gist.github.com/fanquake/1a3aa15c0a73b3bebb20
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 605 2014-06-29 08:34:05 <wumpus> PRab: I don't know what you mean exactly with merchants using 'bitcoind as their engine', but I'd say the recommended use of bitcoind is as edge router and full node implementation to run the P2P network, not as wallet. Those concerns should be seen entirely separately.
 606 2014-06-29 08:34:50 ThomasV has joined
 607 2014-06-29 08:35:50 <wumpus> a SPV wallet can connect to your bitcoind instance and they won't 'get hurt every time there is a fork' as they outsource part of their verification to the node.
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 679 2014-06-29 10:13:40 <sipa1024> warren: existing nodes getting banned is scary; you have any more details
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 706 2014-06-29 10:31:06 <izrilgud> Hello everyone, could some one explain me the changes in database from Berkeley DB to other type? what type of database and how the change it's handled?
 707 2014-06-29 10:31:40 Klumben has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 708 2014-06-29 10:31:42 <izrilgud> Or the link to the explanation?
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 714 2014-06-29 10:33:06 <sipa> the databases related to blockchain validation use LevelDB since 0.8
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 716 2014-06-29 10:33:36 <sipa> the wallet was and still is using BDB
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 719 2014-06-29 10:34:11 <izrilgud> LevelDB.... nice, i'll start studying
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 725 2014-06-29 10:34:58 <izrilgud> ok and BDB for the wallet...
 726 2014-06-29 10:35:03 <dsnrk> not that the blocks on disk are stored in a leveldb database
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 731 2014-06-29 10:35:52 <izrilgud> not or note? dsnrk
 732 2014-06-29 10:35:58 <sipa> not
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 734 2014-06-29 10:36:19 <sipa> the block chain on disk is raw append-only files with the blocks in network format
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 738 2014-06-29 10:36:45 <sipa> there is a leveldb index that stores where which block is to be found in these files
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 742 2014-06-29 10:37:16 <izrilgud> it's true... i remember now, raw in network format...thanks sipa..
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 747 2014-06-29 10:38:26 <izrilgud> ok, that's how it's prepared to handle a lot of info, the leveldb is for indexing not storing everything... nice
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 749 2014-06-29 10:39:19 <dsnrk> as sipa said the block files are append only, the client doesn't use them unless a peer requests it
 750 2014-06-29 10:40:21 <izrilgud> request a verification of old jobs?
 751 2014-06-29 10:40:49 _moarrr is now known as moarrr
 752 2014-06-29 10:40:50 <dsnrk> requests a particular block, that is a node which is doing it's initial sync
 753 2014-06-29 10:41:04 <izrilgud> ahhh yes... of course
 754 2014-06-29 10:41:34 <dsnrk> an SPV node connecting to a full node would need the block files as well.
 755 2014-06-29 10:43:02 <izrilgud> ok, all clients that don't download the whole blockchain but depend on servers...
 756 2014-06-29 10:43:58 <dsnrk> not servers so much, but full nodes. there's no distinction. an SPV node can currently talk to anybody above version 0.8 and set bloom filters on them.
 757 2014-06-29 10:43:59 <izrilgud> ok, all clients that don't download the whole blockchain but depend on full nodes...
 758 2014-06-29 10:44:00 grandmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 759 2014-06-29 10:44:04 <izrilgud> ok, i'll take a look at LevelDB, and after playing a little i'll be back to get more juicy info from you, thanks a lot.
 760 2014-06-29 10:44:17 <izrilgud> ahh, one more question....
 761 2014-06-29 10:44:45 nshsome has joined
 762 2014-06-29 10:45:09 <izrilgud> how does blockchain.info makes the money?
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 764 2014-06-29 10:45:35 <izrilgud> i mean... they don't get any direct income...right?
 765 2014-06-29 10:45:48 <dsnrk> couldn't tell you. I assume through advertising and fees from their mixer service.
 766 2014-06-29 10:46:09 <izrilgud> ;-)
 767 2014-06-29 10:46:22 <izrilgud> thanks and see you soon... i'll keep studying
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 769 2014-06-29 10:49:35 <izrilgud> me again.... so is there any easy way to get transaction fees from just implementing full nodes? is what bitpay does?
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 771 2014-06-29 10:51:13 <sipa> bitpay is a payment processor
 772 2014-06-29 10:51:21 <sipa> do they much more than run a full node
 773 2014-06-29 10:51:21 <izrilgud> i see my question is not clear when mixing with bitpay concept that is much more than just some bitcoin full nodes... but i mean, is there any benefit of running some full nodes... ?
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 776 2014-06-29 10:52:01 <sipa> if you're accepting mondy from others, you better run a full node
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 778 2014-06-29 10:52:36 <sipa> full nodes also provide services to the rest of the network, bht this not directly benefit youself
 779 2014-06-29 10:52:45 <izrilgud> ok i understand... the benefit is a better verification of transactions... but no fees...
 780 2014-06-29 10:52:54 <sipa> no
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 782 2014-06-29 10:53:15 <dsnrk> fees go to miners only.
 783 2014-06-29 10:54:40 <izrilgud> has anyone see any of the new 999$ OpenSource ATM ?
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 785 2014-06-29 10:55:05 <sipa> no
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 788 2014-06-29 10:56:50 <izrilgud> ok, i see thanks a lot for your patience...
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 811 2014-06-29 11:09:59 <izrilgud> thanks sipa, thanks dsnrk ... i see now little more...
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 873 2014-06-29 12:22:50 <AndersAA> I just made an estimate on how many lines of code are in the Bitcoin project. Does around 370,000 sound about right? I think this includes json/leveldb/crypto though.
 874 2014-06-29 12:23:15 <sipa> that sounds a lot
 875 2014-06-29 12:23:33 <sipa> sure you didn't count generated code?
 876 2014-06-29 12:23:36 benrcole has joined
 877 2014-06-29 12:23:47 <SomeoneWeird> there's software to do exactly this :P
 878 2014-06-29 12:24:15 arubi has joined
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 880 2014-06-29 12:24:41 <AndersAA> I just did a "git diff --stat 4b825dc642cb6eb9a060e54bf8d69288fbee4904"(null) on src
 881 2014-06-29 12:24:55 benrcole has quit (Client Quit)
 882 2014-06-29 12:25:05 <AndersAA> = git diff --stat `git hash-object -t tree /dev/null`
 883 2014-06-29 12:26:03 <sipa> well, that will include image files :)
 884 2014-06-29 12:26:07 <sipa> and translations
 885 2014-06-29 12:26:22 <AndersAA> Images/binaries are skipped. Translations are included though
 886 2014-06-29 12:26:29 <gmaxwell> why count leveldb and not boost and openssl? :P
 887 2014-06-29 12:26:49 * sipa quickly adds some empty lines to secp256k1 before merge
 888 2014-06-29 12:26:53 <gmaxwell> sloccount on a fresh checkout says Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 76,277
 889 2014-06-29 12:26:54 nshsome has joined
 890 2014-06-29 12:27:25 <AndersAA> gmaxwell: Thank you! Exactly what I needed.
 891 2014-06-29 12:27:35 <sipa> that also includes leveldb?
 892 2014-06-29 12:27:56 <gmaxwell> yes
 893 2014-06-29 12:27:57 <gmaxwell> http://0bin.net/paste/Ypj62PPiLBWsYAVc#pZR-qNpaoKY2EbYnIMKCxctHKBblv52BGQgsJnhq47q
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 896 2014-06-29 12:31:34 <hearn> bitcoinj is up to 60,500 but that includes orchid
 897 2014-06-29 12:31:46 <hearn> 20k of that is orchid (tor)
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 902 2014-06-29 12:38:53 <sipa> wumpus: present?
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 906 2014-06-29 12:44:41 <wumpus> sipa: yes
 907 2014-06-29 12:48:13 <sipa> so a few things related to clang-format
 908 2014-06-29 12:48:27 <wumpus> does it work on the bitcoin source at all? :)
 909 2014-06-29 12:48:30 <sipa> sure
 910 2014-06-29 12:48:46 <sipa> the latest version in ubuntu doesn't support ForEachMacros
 911 2014-06-29 12:49:00 <sipa> meaning that it doesn't recofnize BOOST_FOREACH as a for loop, with pretty horrible results
 912 2014-06-29 12:49:08 <wumpus> ugh
 913 2014-06-29 12:49:31 <wumpus> but the next version does?
 914 2014-06-29 12:50:06 <sipa> i installed one for a ppa, which seems to work
 915 2014-06-29 12:50:27 <sipa> i'll push a commit to show the result
 916 2014-06-29 12:50:37 <sipa> this takes a while :)
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 918 2014-06-29 12:51:16 <sipa> hmm maybe not all files at the same time
 919 2014-06-29 12:51:41 <wumpus> just the core files at first, I'd say
 920 2014-06-29 12:52:14 <wumpus> or maybe one file even
 921 2014-06-29 12:52:25 <wumpus> util.cpp :P
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 923 2014-06-29 12:53:16 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/924463ddb0e4c3a19fa957a551d959e09e7ff723
 924 2014-06-29 12:53:24 <sipa> addrman.h, serialize.h, main.cpp
 925 2014-06-29 12:53:44 <sipa> so it deals very badly with IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE, but if we just put {} around the code inside it will work
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 927 2014-06-29 12:54:54 <sipa> actually, it unindents incorrectly inside in that case
 928 2014-06-29 12:55:11 <wumpus> why does it try to put the implement_serialize on one line, I thought the idea was to disable joining/splitting of lines for now
 929 2014-06-29 12:55:46 <wumpus> doesn't seem to do it in other cases
 930 2014-06-29 12:55:58 <wumpus> anyhow ,most of it looks good to me
 931 2014-06-29 12:56:30 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/2cab197582fb38bb01f4b2e1cca2f6a6ca7aba98
 932 2014-06-29 12:56:44 <sipa> that's with line limit "keep breaking as it is", instead of 120
 933 2014-06-29 12:56:55 <wumpus> better!
 934 2014-06-29 12:57:36 <wumpus> I like the result now
 935 2014-06-29 12:57:37 <sipa> it still unindents an implement_serialize block somewhere halfway
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 937 2014-06-29 12:58:53 <wumpus> I only see an IMPLEMENT-SERIALIZE in addrman.h and it looks fine
 938 2014-06-29 12:58:55 <sipa> also, it never changes anything but whitespace, so it can't enforce braces around if/for blocks
 939 2014-06-29 12:59:09 <wumpus> sipa: no problem
 940 2014-06-29 12:59:16 <wumpus> I don't really want to see that enforced mindlessly
 941 2014-06-29 12:59:34 <sipa> the line with nUBuckets = ADDRMAN_NEW_BUCKET_COUNT is indented _less_ than its parent code
 942 2014-06-29 12:59:56 <wumpus> oh I see
 943 2014-06-29 13:00:07 <sipa> i wonder whether it's due to the macro around it, or as a means to make the code not too indented
 944 2014-06-29 13:00:16 <sipa> i saw no setting for max indentations, though
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 947 2014-06-29 13:01:45 <CodeShark> http://test.ciphrex.com/coinsocket/
 948 2014-06-29 13:01:59 <CodeShark> almost there :)
 949 2014-06-29 13:02:04 <sipa> apart from the implement_serialize, i really like how it breaks when a line limit it set... trying to fit things on one line if possible, and otherwhise breaking quite intelligently
 950 2014-06-29 13:02:19 <sipa> but that can be done later, i guess
 951 2014-06-29 13:03:09 <wumpus> right
 952 2014-06-29 13:05:40 <CodeShark> a complete BIP32 key/script generation and transaction/block notification service with a WebSocket API
 953 2014-06-29 13:05:41 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 954 2014-06-29 13:05:48 <sipa> CodeShark: nice!
 955 2014-06-29 13:05:53 <sipa> (sorry, too busy now)
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 957 2014-06-29 13:07:21 <wumpus> CodeShark: nice
 958 2014-06-29 13:08:49 <sipa> inline unsigned int GetSerializeSize(char a, int, int = 0)
 959 2014-06-29 13:08:58 <sipa> why does it break that function, but not its successors?
 960 2014-06-29 13:10:32 <sipa> CBufferedFile(FILE *fileIn, uint64_t nBufSize, uint64_t nRewindIn, int nTypeIn, int nVersionIn)
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 962 2014-06-29 13:10:48 <sipa> that was well-indented, but it removes the indentation
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 967 2014-06-29 13:12:43 <wumpus> huh it removes a line break there
 968 2014-06-29 13:13:02 <wumpus> after :
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 970 2014-06-29 13:13:31 <sipa> the keep-breakings was only introduced recently, i guess it has many edge cases
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 974 2014-06-29 13:14:49 <wumpus> maybe there's an option for constructor initialization clauses?
 975 2014-06-29 13:15:07 <sipa> several
 976 2014-06-29 13:15:36 <sipa> BreakConstructorInitializersBeforeComma
 977 2014-06-29 13:15:43 <sipa> ConstructorInitializerAllOnOneLineOrOnePerLine
 978 2014-06-29 13:15:50 <sipa> ConstructorInitializerIndentWidth
 979 2014-06-29 13:16:21 <sipa> the last one is about how much indent when breaking after the :
 980 2014-06-29 13:16:21 <wumpus> that's a lot indeed, but seems nothing about newlines after :
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 982 2014-06-29 13:16:48 <sipa> but all logic for determining whether to break after a : is disabled if there is no line length limit
 983 2014-06-29 13:16:58 <sipa> and after the : is perhaps a point where it does not check yet
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 991 2014-06-29 13:38:52 <btc123> can someone tell me why testnet or namecoin or any other blockchain would bother chaining the magic bytes?
 992 2014-06-29 13:39:36 <sipa> to avoid nodes thinking they're talking to the right network when they're wrong
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 996 2014-06-29 13:40:15 <btc123> sipa: wouldn't listening on different ports make that irrelevant?
 997 2014-06-29 13:40:27 <sipa> anyone can run on any port
 998 2014-06-29 13:40:31 <sipa> there is only a default
 999 2014-06-29 13:42:25 <btc123> fair enough, but why would anyone do that? seems like its as silly as checking for pubkey collisions
1000 2014-06-29 13:42:54 <btc123> you'd have to be running multiple deamons on the same non standard port with different blockchains
1001 2014-06-29 13:43:25 <sipa> well, talk to any of the altcoin authors who forked litecoin and forgot to change the the magic bytes
1002 2014-06-29 13:43:44 <btc123> hah. what happened?
1003 2014-06-29 13:43:51 <sipa> even if they changed the port, it just needs one accidental link between the two networks, and they start fighting
1004 2014-06-29 13:43:54 <btc123> they used the same port also?
1005 2014-06-29 13:43:57 <sipa> irrelevant
1006 2014-06-29 13:44:27 <btc123> ah one node can start relaying between two networks?
1007 2014-06-29 13:44:45 <btc123> good point. thanks.
1008 2014-06-29 13:44:46 <sipa> of course, it doesn't know it's talking to different network, so it will relay
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1010 2014-06-29 13:45:21 <sipa> if they also forgot to change the genesis block, they essentially become a hardfork of eachother
1011 2014-06-29 13:45:23 <btc123> sipa: btw, can sendrawtransaction be used to send any network message? or just tx's?
1012 2014-06-29 13:45:29 <sipa> just transactions
1013 2014-06-29 13:46:02 <btc123> ah, that would explain why i wasted 5 hours yesterday trying to debug my sendalert rawtx that i made
1014 2014-06-29 13:46:12 <btc123> lol
1015 2014-06-29 13:46:55 <sipa> how would it even know what message to send something as?
1016 2014-06-29 13:47:02 <sipa> all you give is the payload
1017 2014-06-29 13:47:11 <btc123> the header shows message type
1018 2014-06-29 13:47:23 <sipa> you don't pass the header to sendrawtransaction
1019 2014-06-29 13:47:35 <btc123> i know this now ;)
1020 2014-06-29 13:47:58 <btc123> so, whats best way to send a raw message to the network?  nc?
1021 2014-06-29 13:48:10 <btc123> find a peer and manually open a socket and send?
1022 2014-06-29 13:48:20 <sipa> use any of the p2p network libraries
1023 2014-06-29 13:48:34 <btc123> can you suggest one?
1024 2014-06-29 13:48:43 <wumpus> pynode is convenient for that
1025 2014-06-29 13:51:08 <hearn> bitcoinj also works
1026 2014-06-29 13:52:16 <btc123> thanks
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1033 2014-06-29 14:04:29 <btc123> is <privatekey> format in sendalert an uncompressed ECC key?
1034 2014-06-29 14:05:03 <btc123> uh. nevermind. that was a stupid question.
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1036 2014-06-29 14:05:37 <btc123> i mean is it HEX or DER or .pem format?
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1040 2014-06-29 14:07:11 <sipa> neither
1041 2014-06-29 14:07:19 <sipa> it's WIF
1042 2014-06-29 14:07:25 <sipa> same as importprivkey
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1044 2014-06-29 14:11:05 <btc123> wow.. thanks. i literally wrote some c yesterday to use openssl libcrypto go gen a ecc keypair for me because i thought it was HEX format for some reason lol
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1048 2014-06-29 14:12:28 <btc123> its not on wiki also, though i guess it should be assumed
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1050 2014-06-29 14:14:14 <sipa> also, what sendalert are you talking about?
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1054 2014-06-29 14:15:06 <sipa> i assumed it was a recently added command that i don't know about, and that it takes the standard we use everywhere...
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1059 2014-06-29 14:23:09 <btc123> sipa: sendalert displays a message on all clients , obviously only gavin has the privkey for it
1060 2014-06-29 14:23:10 <hearn> there is no sendalert p2p message
1061 2014-06-29 14:23:15 <hearn> you're talking about jus the "alert" message
1062 2014-06-29 14:24:00 <btc123> yes.
1063 2014-06-29 14:24:03 <sipa> not only gavin
1064 2014-06-29 14:24:07 <sipa> and ah, alert
1065 2014-06-29 14:24:15 <sipa> well you don't send a private key in an alert!
1066 2014-06-29 14:24:39 <sipa> and it's just the standard public key format that is used everywhere
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1068 2014-06-29 14:24:46 <sipa> as defined by SEC
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1070 2014-06-29 14:25:38 <btc123> sendalert <message> <privatekey> <minver> <maxver> <priority> <id> [cancelupto]
1071 2014-06-29 14:26:13 <btc123> i guess altcoin creators impletemented it as an api call, thought it was in bitcoin also
1072 2014-06-29 14:26:33 <sipa> in that case, ask them :)
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1074 2014-06-29 14:27:46 <btc123> hah right... well, i manually created an ecc keypair and signed an alert message myself so i'll just try and transmit the raw message myself first
1075 2014-06-29 14:30:52 <btc123> do the core devs manually create the alert message and broadcast with some custom code?
1076 2014-06-29 14:31:00 <btc123> would you be willing to share it?
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1085 2014-06-29 14:42:34 <wumpus> it's a custom .cpp file that is linked against bitcoin core, with  specified message, priority etc in the source code, nothing as fancy as a RPC command
1086 2014-06-29 14:43:28 <btc123> wumpus: is it available on github?
1087 2014-06-29 14:43:49 <wumpus> not publically
1088 2014-06-29 14:44:28 <btc123> would i be able to request it, minus the private key of course?
1089 2014-06-29 14:44:35 <wumpus> but no problem, I can put it in a gist...
1090 2014-06-29 14:44:53 <btc123> thanks!
1091 2014-06-29 14:45:31 <wumpus> but if some altcoins have already implemented a 'sendalert' call I'm sure that's more useful
1092 2014-06-29 14:47:31 samesong has quit (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1093 2014-06-29 14:48:02 <btc123> wumpus: half their code is usally broken
1094 2014-06-29 14:48:05 <btc123> ;)
1095 2014-06-29 14:48:26 <wumpus> so is ours, it only gets rebased when an alert needs to be sent
1096 2014-06-29 14:49:48 <sipa> sounds like a good reason to include the code
1097 2014-06-29 14:49:55 <wumpus> anyhow, I'll put it up
1098 2014-06-29 14:50:33 <btc123> wumpus make sure to rm the privkey ;)
1099 2014-06-29 14:50:41 <wumpus> it's not in there
1100 2014-06-29 14:50:51 <wumpus> https://gist.github.com/laanwj/0e689cfa37b52bcbbb44
1101 2014-06-29 14:51:57 micronxd has joined
1102 2014-06-29 14:52:43 <btc123> brb
1103 2014-06-29 14:52:49 <wumpus> sipa: well, that adds a continous maintenance burden instead of an incidental
1104 2014-06-29 14:53:06 <sipa> i'm not convinced
1105 2014-06-29 14:53:25 <sipa> but i don't care
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1117 2014-06-29 15:04:37 <hearn> sipa, wumpus: what do you guys think about allowing other apps to use the alert broadcast mechanism :-)
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1120 2014-06-29 15:05:38 <wumpus> hearn: sounds impossible to make that ddos-proof, or to prevent people from using it as generic messaging system
1121 2014-06-29 15:06:03 nshsome has joined
1122 2014-06-29 15:06:06 <hearn> i meant a casual "root key signs app key, app key signs alert" type system, where you sign someone's key if they're known to be a Spiffy and Trustable Chap
1123 2014-06-29 15:06:09 <wumpus> hearn: but if there is a critical problem with bitcoinj and you need to send an alert, I'll send it for you
1124 2014-06-29 15:06:28 <hearn> yeah, i was thinking of upgrade alerts rather than PANIC NOW type alerts.
1125 2014-06-29 15:06:37 <hearn> is not a big deal
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1127 2014-06-29 15:06:54 <hearn> i sort of admire the extreme p2p design of the original bitcoin though. bitcoin.org could have vanished and everything would have still worked
1128 2014-06-29 15:07:00 <wumpus> nah, applications can use their own notification mechanism for that (like polling an URI), no need to use the P2P network
1129 2014-06-29 15:07:43 <wumpus> bitcoin core doesn't use the P2P network for normal upgrade alerts either, and would use another mechanism if we were to implement them at all
1130 2014-06-29 15:08:08 <hearn> i think it originally (?) had some code that checked the version field of your peers, and if they were mostly higher than yours it'd say there was an upgrade available
1131 2014-06-29 15:08:17 <hearn> so it wasn't using signed upgrade alerts but was using the p2p network to find out about new versions
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1136 2014-06-29 15:08:57 <wumpus> if the version string was signed by us, that could work
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1138 2014-06-29 15:10:16 <wumpus> otherwise, it's just too easy to lie, connect from N nodes with some funny version string and cause a popup
1139 2014-06-29 15:10:38 <hearn> i think satoshi's original assumption was that there wasn't much point in doing that. if your peers fake a lower version nothing happens. if they fake your own version, nothing happens (but signing can't fix that). if they fake a new version, ok, you go to bitcoin.org and discover either the p2p network or your internet is broken. no harm done.
1140 2014-06-29 15:11:10 <hearn> except a bit of time wasted
1141 2014-06-29 15:11:17 <hearn> but sure, signing can't really hurt either
1142 2014-06-29 15:11:20 <wumpus> well that requires users to go to bitcoin.org... so the client could just as well look there at startup :)
1143 2014-06-29 15:12:07 <hearn> it'd take the load off the server, but perhaps it doesn't matter much
1144 2014-06-29 15:12:20 <hearn> if we ever have enough nodes that update checks are a problem -> party time! :)
1145 2014-06-29 15:12:28 <wumpus> but yeah, having clients send a signed recommendupgrade message would be interesting
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1147 2014-06-29 15:12:52 <wumpus> but not more than that and certainly not urgent or important :)
1148 2014-06-29 15:13:03 <wumpus> right :) 
1149 2014-06-29 15:13:07 <wumpus> downloads would be a bigger issue
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1151 2014-06-29 15:13:31 <hearn> one reason i was thinking about having sub-signed upgrade messages is that i want to make it as cheap/easy as possible to make wallets. if you're on android or ios, no problem, google and apple pay the bills. for a desktop wallet it can end up maybe costing extra money for all the update pings.
1152 2014-06-29 15:13:42 <hearn> plus it leaks a bit of data. maybe with integrated tor it doesn't matter
1153 2014-06-29 15:13:47 <wumpus> (and if polling every time at start is too much, it could just poll if it is a week ago, for example, this is for non-hurry anyway)
1154 2014-06-29 15:13:50 <hearn> yeah
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1156 2014-06-29 15:16:01 <hearn> i sort of like the idea that someone can make a wallet entirely anonymously. i think running the update server off a tor hidden service and using orchid might be the way to go there
1157 2014-06-29 15:16:25 <hearn> but failing that, a signed p2p notification that an update exists pointing at a github url uploaded via tor would also work
1158 2014-06-29 15:16:28 <hearn> hmmm. anyway. back to work.
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1188 2014-06-29 16:04:30 <michagogo> Does Bitcoin Core expose the refund address for transactions sent with the PP?
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1236 2014-06-29 17:22:41 <AndersAA> Just checking - there's no timeframe on Core releases, right? (Like every x months)
1237 2014-06-29 17:22:55 <hearn> nope
1238 2014-06-29 17:23:10 <hearn> michagogo: they appear in the UI if you receive a refund to that address. otherwise no.
1239 2014-06-29 17:23:19 <hearn> AndersAA: some open source projects do work that way, but not Core
1240 2014-06-29 17:23:34 ericmuyser has joined
1241 2014-06-29 17:24:18 <AndersAA> hearn: Thanks! I know FreeBSD / Linux Kernel work like that so I just had to make sure.
1242 2014-06-29 17:24:32 <hearn> chrome, firefox, gnome too iirc
1243 2014-06-29 17:26:52 <AndersAA> Yeah, it's pretty much the only life cycle difference between "common open source" and Core.
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1263 2014-06-29 17:50:52 <AndersAA> The BIP-wiki could use an update. Or I misunderstand the difference between Active and Accepted. Only BIP1 has status "Active" even though a bunch of them are surely active - who's in charge of the page? gmaxwell?
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1265 2014-06-29 17:51:39 <sipa> the whole concept of accepted is fuzzy
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1267 2014-06-29 17:52:45 <AndersAA> Shouldn't they be moved to active when they're in a Core production release? Or literally every implementation?
1268 2014-06-29 17:53:01 <sipa> except for protocol changes or consensus changes, nothing needs a global "accepted" status
1269 2014-06-29 17:53:30 <sipa> it's a per-client or per-implementation decisiin whether to implement for example the payment protocol
1270 2014-06-29 17:53:38 <sipa> or bip39
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1272 2014-06-29 17:53:55 <hearn> i think accepted/active basically just means "we're not going to make any major changes now"
1273 2014-06-29 17:54:20 <AndersAA> Well, BIP31 - "pong" for instance - shouldn't that be active instead of accepted?
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1276 2014-06-29 17:56:11 <hearn> probably. who really cares? :)
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1279 2014-06-29 17:57:31 <sipa> "not going to make changes anymore" should be "fibal" imho
1280 2014-06-29 17:57:33 <sipa> final
1281 2014-06-29 18:00:56 <AndersAA> I don't know if I should update BIP31 to Active to see what happens.
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1292 2014-06-29 18:15:08 <hearn> it's probably not worth the ensuing bike-shed painting
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1296 2014-06-29 18:18:07 <AndersAA> Let's see if anyone cares :) https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/79
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1301 2014-06-29 18:34:04 <Luke-Jr> IMO Accepted = in production use; and Active = protocol rule enforced
1302 2014-06-29 18:34:20 <Luke-Jr> but that's still a bit fuzzy :p
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1304 2014-06-29 18:36:31 <AndersAA> Luke-Jr: Good point - though BIP1 is hardly protocol rule enforced.
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1307 2014-06-29 18:42:36 <Luke-Jr> AndersAA: hence fuzzy
1308 2014-06-29 18:44:08 <AndersAA> Indeed.
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1313 2014-06-29 18:46:48 <sipa> how about new standard tracks: consensus changes, protocol changes, meta (like bip1), informational
1314 2014-06-29 18:47:13 <sipa> the last one doea not have 'accepted' or 'active'
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1316 2014-06-29 18:49:09 <AndersAA> sipa: You mean instead of just type=standard/informational?
1317 2014-06-29 18:50:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: informational seems inherently fuzzy. what would fall under it?
1318 2014-06-29 18:50:44 <jcorgan> < hearn> it's probably not worth the ensuing bike-shed painting <= seems to be a common conversation stopper
1319 2014-06-29 18:50:45 <sipa> bip32, bip38, bip39, bip44
1320 2014-06-29 18:51:41 <Luke-Jr> I would consider those protocol
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1322 2014-06-29 18:52:25 <AndersAA> Luke-Jr: +1
1323 2014-06-29 18:52:30 <sipa> i don't see how
1324 2014-06-29 18:52:37 <sipa> they are local to each wallet
1325 2014-06-29 18:52:46 <sipa> the network doean't know or care
1326 2014-06-29 18:52:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: HD wallet defines protocol for referring to seeds and such
1327 2014-06-29 18:52:49 <Luke-Jr> xpub/xprv
1328 2014-06-29 18:52:59 <Luke-Jr> BIP 38 is purely protocol
1329 2014-06-29 18:53:14 <sipa> by protocol i meant purely the p2p protocol
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1331 2014-06-29 18:53:16 <Luke-Jr> oh
1332 2014-06-29 18:53:21 <sipa> ie, something nodes need to agree on
1333 2014-06-29 18:53:27 <Luke-Jr> well then we need a category for GBT protocol, etc etc
1334 2014-06-29 18:53:28 <sipa> wallet stuff... no such requirement
1335 2014-06-29 18:53:47 <sipa> maybe call the category 'other' :)
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1337 2014-06-29 18:54:43 <Luke-Jr> Consensus, Node protocols, Meta, Other
1338 2014-06-29 18:54:45 <Luke-Jr> ?
1339 2014-06-29 18:55:06 <Luke-Jr> "protocols" keeping in mind that HAM and other mediums may benefit from non-p2p protocols for node peering
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1341 2014-06-29 18:55:18 <sipa> agree
1342 2014-06-29 18:56:15 <Luke-Jr> so now someone needs to write up a BIP to revise BIP 1 on this
1343 2014-06-29 18:56:17 <Luke-Jr> :P
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1345 2014-06-29 18:57:09 <AndersAA> Luke-Jr: :P PR should suffice.
1346 2014-06-29 18:57:41 <sipa> no
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1348 2014-06-29 18:57:56 <sipa> it would be a new BIP; you don't modify old BIPs
1349 2014-06-29 18:58:09 <sipa> (unless typo's, corrections, examples, ... but not new ideas)
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1357 2014-06-29 19:06:49 <AndersAA> sipa: Actually this would be an update to BIP1 = contact editor and original author. Funny thing - BIP1 lists as accepted in the BIP and active in the readme.
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1359 2014-06-29 19:07:52 <sipa> AndersAA: yes, so it would be bip2 maybe :)
1360 2014-06-29 19:09:28 <AndersAA> And according to BIP1 I got it wrong. Active = never meant to be completed. Fuzzy..
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1371 2014-06-29 19:24:38 <xabbix> I want to run several full nodes on different machines, but have them read the blocks from a single NFS drive, is that possible? would it work?
1372 2014-06-29 19:24:45 <sipa> no
1373 2014-06-29 19:25:07 <ProfMac> on github, bitcoin/src/main.cpp @ line 4347 is the call pto->PushMessage("inv", vInv);   I wonder if it is possible to search for all occurrences of the string "inv"  (5 characters, including the double quote)
1374 2014-06-29 19:25:13 <xabbix> sipa, ok, is this because some will try to write to the same files at the same time?
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1376 2014-06-29 19:25:22 <sipa> ProfMac: grep?
1377 2014-06-29 19:25:59 <sipa> xabbix: the code assumes exclusive access, yeha
1378 2014-06-29 19:26:06 <kazcw> xabbix: you can use a filesystem on disk that can do CoW clones or has storage deduplication. You need each instance to be able to write to its own version
1379 2014-06-29 19:26:08 <xabbix> cool, thanks for the quick answer.
1380 2014-06-29 19:26:24 <ProfMac> I'm using the search box at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/search?q=%22inv%22&ref=cmdform and I haven't noticed how to use grep on that page.
1381 2014-06-29 19:26:33 <sipa> it's a command line utility
1382 2014-06-29 19:26:41 <sipa> fgrep '"inv"' *.cpp
1383 2014-06-29 19:26:42 <xabbix> kazcw, yeah.. that doesn't help unfortunately :(
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1387 2014-06-29 19:27:36 <ProfMac> so I need to pull the sources to my local machine, then act nixish.
1388 2014-06-29 19:27:43 <sipa> duh
1389 2014-06-29 19:27:56 <sipa> learn git, stop using web interfaces :)
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1392 2014-06-29 19:29:36 <nicksavers> Is it not possible to create deterministic signatures with ECDSA?
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1394 2014-06-29 19:29:46 <sipa> yes
1395 2014-06-29 19:29:58 <sipa> use hash(secretkey || message) as nonce
1396 2014-06-29 19:31:42 <ProfMac> lol.  A perfectly nixish answer.
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1419 2014-06-29 19:56:52 <nicksavers> appreciate the answer, thanks
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1432 2014-06-29 20:12:45 <posita> Forgive my ignorance, but for secp256k, is 0xfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffebaaedce6af48a03bbfd25e8cd0364141 an inclusive or exclusive upper bound? I have read it both ways, and (to be completely honest), I don't understand enough about the math to derive it.
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1435 2014-06-29 20:13:30 <sipa> it's the size of the group
1436 2014-06-29 20:13:40 <sipa> so the largest secret key is one less than that
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1439 2014-06-29 20:14:28 <sipa> it's often called n, the order of the group; valid secret keys are in the (inclusive) range [1,n-1]
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1445 2014-06-29 20:16:25 <posita> Okay, I understand (more) now. I realize in practice, it probably won't make a difference, since the chance of hitting the upper bound in something like randrange(1, 0xfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffebaaedce6af48a03bbfd25e8cd0364141) is *very* small, but I have seen flawed implementations.
1446 2014-06-29 20:16:27 <posita> Thanks for the explanation.
1447 2014-06-29 20:17:07 <sipa> randrange(a,b) returns numbers in the range [a,b-1]
1448 2014-06-29 20:17:33 <sipa> so that is correct
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1460 2014-06-29 20:19:03 <posita> Sorry…I mistyped. Yes. I meant a call that includes the upper bound. randrange is not that call.
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1463 2014-06-29 20:19:43 <sipa> ok
1464 2014-06-29 20:21:09 <posita> Thanks!
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1558 2014-06-29 21:03:45 <wallet42> brainwallet.org doesnt let me use secp256k's n
1559 2014-06-29 21:03:48 <wallet42> only n-1
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1561 2014-06-29 21:04:02 <kazcw> !brainwallet
1562 2014-06-29 21:04:03 <gribble> Error: "brainwallet" is not a valid command.
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1565 2014-06-29 21:07:10 <kazcw> that sounds like correct behavior. n-1 is the highest possible key.
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1570 2014-06-29 21:08:30 <wallet42> so n := 0 ? n+1 := 1 ?
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1572 2014-06-29 21:09:11 <kazcw> no, there are well over 0 legal privkeys
1573 2014-06-29 21:10:24 <wallet42> kk thx
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