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  27 2014-07-07 00:36:56 <throughnothing> linelevel: I believe the total number of addresses would be 2^256
  28 2014-07-07 00:37:27 <throughnothing> maybe what you're looking for is the total number of addresses that have been used at least once?
  29 2014-07-07 00:37:50 mihar has joined
  30 2014-07-07 00:38:06 <throughnothing> if that's what you want, there's: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-unique-addresses
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  34 2014-07-07 00:40:13 <sipa> throughnothing: 2^160, if you only count pay-to-pubkey-hash addresses (P2SH is again 2^160)
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  38 2014-07-07 00:40:54 <linelevel> throughnothing: Yes, that is, of course, what I want (and as sipa, just said, there are 2^160 such addresses).. but ideally I want to get it via an API, not by scraping a web chart.
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  41 2014-07-07 00:43:09 <throughnothing> sipa: ah right, I figured it would be a little less
  42 2014-07-07 00:43:16 attilah has joined
  43 2014-07-07 00:43:19 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr
  44 2014-07-07 00:43:29 <skinnkavaj> Looks like litecoin is a savor to BTC
  45 2014-07-07 00:43:31 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=677783.0
  46 2014-07-07 00:45:28 jerseykx has joined
  47 2014-07-07 00:46:51 <skinnkavaj> Before you say troll, I don't believe casacius is a troll
  48 2014-07-07 00:47:02 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=176556.0
  49 2014-07-07 00:47:42 aburan428 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  50 2014-07-07 00:47:49 <sipa> please stop it
  51 2014-07-07 00:47:59 BCBot` has joined
  52 2014-07-07 00:48:24 <skinnkavaj> sipa: Why?
  53 2014-07-07 00:48:35 <justanotheruser> skinnkavaj: scamcoins are OT I think
  54 2014-07-07 00:48:44 Guest9823 has joined
  55 2014-07-07 00:48:45 <justanotheruser> ##altcoin-dev
  56 2014-07-07 00:48:56 <sipa> switching the hash function will not solve the problem (whatever we choose as hash function, hardware will be developed for it, and litecoin scrypt asics already exist), at best postpone it, at worst worsen the security
  57 2014-07-07 00:49:21 <sipa> please stop repeating that this is a problem that needs a solution
  58 2014-07-07 00:49:34 <sipa> yes it does, but random technobabble will not solve it
  59 2014-07-07 00:49:49 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
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  65 2014-07-07 00:52:04 <Emcy> all switching the hashfunction would do is make it easier for the real big adversaries to gain control by forging hardware
  66 2014-07-07 00:52:15 <Emcy> we actually need more asics not less
  67 2014-07-07 00:52:23 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not to mention it seems like the power reduction for scrypt is actually greater than it is for sha256d
  68 2014-07-07 00:52:26 BCBot` has joined
  69 2014-07-07 00:52:27 <Emcy> the plurality of those asics is sort of a soeperate issue
  70 2014-07-07 00:52:45 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yup
  71 2014-07-07 00:52:54 BCBot` has quit (Client Quit)
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  73 2014-07-07 00:53:14 <Emcy> power reduction?
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  75 2014-07-07 00:53:38 <sipa> the efficiency factor you get from asics vs gpus is higher for litecoin than for bitcoin
  76 2014-07-07 00:53:56 <Emcy> oh
  77 2014-07-07 00:54:02 <phantomcircuit> Emcy, going to asic's improves the J/hash to a greater extent in scrypt than in sha256
  78 2014-07-07 00:54:12 <Emcy> thats funny
  79 2014-07-07 00:54:57 <phantomcircuit> yeah
  80 2014-07-07 00:55:02 <Emcy> wasnt tehre a reboot of litecoin that fixed the parameters or something
  81 2014-07-07 00:55:09 <Emcy> featherlitecoin
  82 2014-07-07 00:55:12 <Emcy> what happened to that
  83 2014-07-07 00:55:18 <phantomcircuit> you can do things like use the exact amount of SRAM necessary and stuff
  84 2014-07-07 00:55:19 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  87 2014-07-07 00:55:31 <sipa> Emcy: who cares?
  88 2014-07-07 00:55:36 meLon has joined
  89 2014-07-07 00:55:40 <phantomcircuit> Emcy, increasing the memory hardness actually makes ASICs better
  90 2014-07-07 00:56:06 <phantomcircuit> since you're pushing the working set to beyond the L1/L2/L3 size of a normal cpu/gpu
  91 2014-07-07 00:56:27 <phantomcircuit> but i can make an ASIC using SRAM for the entire working set almost exactly
  92 2014-07-07 00:56:30 BCBot` has quit (Client Quit)
  93 2014-07-07 00:56:30 <Emcy> lol
  94 2014-07-07 00:56:40 anton000 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  95 2014-07-07 00:56:50 <phantomcircuit> Emcy, if you're really going to do it
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  97 2014-07-07 00:57:00 <Emcy> some intel chips have 128mb of L4 now
  98 2014-07-07 00:57:10 <Emcy> someone make haswellcoin lol
  99 2014-07-07 00:57:16 <phantomcircuit> generate a TON of hash functions
 100 2014-07-07 00:57:25 <sipa> #altcoin-dev, please :)
 101 2014-07-07 00:57:40 <phantomcircuit> at least then the asic development is expensive
 102 2014-07-07 00:57:52 <justanotheruser> ##altcoin-dev that is
 103 2014-07-07 00:57:55 attilah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 104 2014-07-07 00:58:19 <Emcy> whats with the double pound
 105 2014-07-07 00:58:35 <sipa> or if it's about generic properties of PoW and future systems... #bitcoin-wizards
 106 2014-07-07 00:58:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is libsecp256k1 merged into mainline master?
 107 2014-07-07 00:59:10 <sipa> no
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 109 2014-07-07 00:59:24 <sipa> the integration code is there, but the library itself not yet
 110 2014-07-07 01:00:12 <Emcy> sipa is your library at a stage now where you want to put it in?
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 115 2014-07-07 01:01:16 <sipa> code is never finished :)
 116 2014-07-07 01:01:32 <Emcy> i didnt say finished :P
 117 2014-07-07 01:01:47 <sipa> it's usable
 118 2014-07-07 01:04:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, when you say integration you mean like a configure flag?
 119 2014-07-07 01:04:32 <sipa> yes
 120 2014-07-07 01:04:44 <sipa> and the key.cpp code to call libsecp256k1
 121 2014-07-07 01:04:50 <Emcy> coupling it with better p2p should make it much less painful to run core
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 124 2014-07-07 01:05:04 <sipa> 'better p2p' ?
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 127 2014-07-07 01:05:53 <phantomcircuit> sipa, improving the logic a bit
 128 2014-07-07 01:05:58 <phantomcircuit> it's still quite bursty
 129 2014-07-07 01:06:05 <sipa> like #4468 ?
 130 2014-07-07 01:06:55 <phantomcircuit> yeah like that
 131 2014-07-07 01:08:36 <Emcy> concurrent block downloads to start
 132 2014-07-07 01:08:46 <sipa> like #4468
 133 2014-07-07 01:09:07 <Emcy> is that a github issue no
 134 2014-07-07 01:09:11 <sipa> yes
 135 2014-07-07 01:09:18 <Emcy> yes then
 136 2014-07-07 01:09:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, to really test that you probably want to add your own checkpoint
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 141 2014-07-07 01:12:05 <Emcy> oh nice 4468 is headers first actual code
 142 2014-07-07 01:12:05 <sipa> eh?
 143 2014-07-07 01:12:17 <Emcy> nice, all coming together
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 147 2014-07-07 01:16:58 <Emcy> sipa you must have rewitten like 80% of the client by now
 148 2014-07-07 01:17:13 <sipa> nah, i just move bits around :)
 149 2014-07-07 01:17:33 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
 150 2014-07-07 01:17:35 <Emcy> isnt that all modern coding is to an extent.........
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 154 2014-07-07 01:18:28 <Emcy> regardless of that, well done m8
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 161 2014-07-07 01:25:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i seem to have a ./src/secp256k1 directory
 162 2014-07-07 01:26:04 <phantomcircuit> any chance you know the magic invocation of configure?
 163 2014-07-07 01:26:22 <sipa> you need to put the libsecp256k1 in that directory first
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 166 2014-07-07 01:28:28 <phantomcircuit> huh
 167 2014-07-07 01:28:44 <phantomcircuit> i guess the files in there are .gitignore'd
 168 2014-07-07 01:29:05 <sipa> there's only an '.empty'
 169 2014-07-07 01:29:38 <phantomcircuit> yeah i checked out your integration branch before though
 170 2014-07-07 01:29:43 <phantomcircuit> so there was actually more than that
 171 2014-07-07 01:30:16 <Emcy> i assume 4468 should help with those mental node bandwidth graphs people have been posting
 172 2014-07-07 01:30:24 <Emcy> by spreading the load
 173 2014-07-07 01:30:55 alferz has joined
 174 2014-07-07 01:31:00 <gmaxwell> Emcy: perhaps not by itself in that it helps nodes pull a lot harder too.
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 176 2014-07-07 01:31:20 <Emcy> well yes, but thats desireable
 177 2014-07-07 01:31:41 <sipa> i hope that after some tweaking (in subsequent PRs after 4468) the code will deal reasonably well with random mixes of fast and slow peers
 178 2014-07-07 01:32:14 yubrew has joined
 179 2014-07-07 01:32:20 <sipa> when that is the case, and enough of the network uses that code, we can probably drop the restriction to only sync from outgoing connections, and add bandwidth limiting
 180 2014-07-07 01:32:49 <Emcy> why only outgoing
 181 2014-07-07 01:33:14 <sipa> because right now, setting -nolisten effectively helps reducing how much people download from you
 182 2014-07-07 01:33:36 <sipa> with parallel download, naively, that would change
 183 2014-07-07 01:33:47 <phantomcircuit> sipa, when you say i need to pub the lib in there
 184 2014-07-07 01:33:49 <Emcy> yes
 185 2014-07-07 01:33:56 <phantomcircuit> would just checking out your repo into that directory do it
 186 2014-07-07 01:34:00 <sipa> yes
 187 2014-07-07 01:34:07 <gmaxwell> my thought exactly wrt phasing in downloading from inbound peers.
 188 2014-07-07 01:34:09 <sipa> but there is probably still some configure magic necessary
 189 2014-07-07 01:34:32 <phantomcircuit> ./configure --help doesn't even show libsecp256k1
 190 2014-07-07 01:34:32 <Emcy> i hope thats not another bit of zombie 'wisdom' in that case
 191 2014-07-07 01:34:40 <phantomcircuit> but it's in the file as USE_LIBSECP256K1
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 193 2014-07-07 01:35:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: did you see my observation that it manages to keep the peer's ping time very high even where it should be cpu bound?  That surprised me.
 194 2014-07-07 01:35:23 <sipa> you'll probably need to manually tweak bitcoin-config.h or whatever to set USE_LIBSECP256K1
 195 2014-07-07 01:35:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: see #4472
 196 2014-07-07 01:36:05 <gmaxwell> ah, sorry been on planes all day, still catching up.
 197 2014-07-07 01:36:12 cypher has joined
 198 2014-07-07 01:36:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: if we have a long queue of blocks to process, no other message handling is done, meaning that a ping could be processed much later than it arrives
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 201 2014-07-07 01:37:33 <Emcy> is diskio/p2p/core threaded or async yet
 202 2014-07-07 01:37:35 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah probably the ProcessMessage queue should be walked for trivial to handle messages
 203 2014-07-07 01:37:49 <phantomcircuit> except i bet there's a bunch of stuff that expects ordered returns
 204 2014-07-07 01:37:56 <phantomcircuit> that would be entertaining
 205 2014-07-07 01:38:01 <sipa> it definitely needs to be ordered *per peer*
 206 2014-07-07 01:38:11 <sipa> doesn't mean every message needs to be handled in receive order
 207 2014-07-07 01:38:22 <phantomcircuit> sipa, well.... does it?
 208 2014-07-07 01:38:30 <sipa> yes
 209 2014-07-07 01:38:35 <phantomcircuit> why?
 210 2014-07-07 01:38:49 <sipa> there are several examples of code relying on that property
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 212 2014-07-07 01:39:07 <sipa> in particular, using a ping to check whether the previous message was handled
 213 2014-07-07 01:39:13 <phantomcircuit> the only one i know of is the initial block sync inv trigger thingie
 214 2014-07-07 01:39:50 <sipa> or 4468 itself relying on being able to send a getheaders + getdata for the same block, and know that its headers will have been verified by the time the block arrives, without extra round trip
 215 2014-07-07 01:40:20 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 216 2014-07-07 01:40:26 <sipa> Emcy: there is a network messaging thread, and a message handling thread
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 218 2014-07-07 01:40:48 <sipa> so data goes from/to buffers while the verification code is doing other stuff
 219 2014-07-07 01:40:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, getheaders returns 50k headers right?
 220 2014-07-07 01:40:53 <sipa> 2000
 221 2014-07-07 01:41:09 <phantomcircuit> wat
 222 2014-07-07 01:41:41 <dhill> 2000 per message
 223 2014-07-07 01:41:48 <sipa> even with just a boring headers -> getheaders -> headers -> getheaders -> ... synchronous sequence, it takes around a minute to synchronize
 224 2014-07-07 01:42:38 <gmaxwell> 2000 headers is 160kbytes ignoring overhead, so it's not really insanely too few.
 225 2014-07-07 01:43:20 <sipa> 162024 bytes to be precise
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 227 2014-07-07 01:43:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, getdata's limit is 50k requests
 228 2014-07-07 01:43:45 <phantomcircuit> which is way way more expensive than returning 50k headers
 229 2014-07-07 01:44:04 <sipa> that's 1.6 MB
 230 2014-07-07 01:44:34 <phantomcircuit> iirc more like 1.8
 231 2014-07-07 01:44:36 <phantomcircuit> but yeah
 232 2014-07-07 01:44:38 <phantomcircuit> it's large
 233 2014-07-07 01:45:17 <phantomcircuit> given that i dont see any reason to restrict the one piece that is almsot certainly always goign to be latency sensitive to 160KB chunks
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 235 2014-07-07 01:45:31 <sipa> it's not latency sensitive
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 237 2014-07-07 01:45:55 <sipa> you only need long headers responses for initial sync
 238 2014-07-07 01:46:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah so?
 239 2014-07-07 01:46:22 <sipa> for block propagation it doesn't matter (unless we'd have a >2000 deep reorg)
 240 2014-07-07 01:47:09 <phantomcircuit> IBS is cpu bound... but only after a point
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 243 2014-07-07 01:47:45 <sipa> fast initial sync is a nice property to have, but it's by no means essential to bitcoin's operation
 244 2014-07-07 01:47:57 <sipa> and header sync is already such a tiny fraction of the whole sync
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 246 2014-07-07 01:48:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: so right now a sync is still a couple hours, shaving that minute down to 30 seconds wouldn't be worth a protocol change, and the larger the chunks have fairness/congestion implications too, so it's not free even ignoring the protocol change.
 247 2014-07-07 01:48:32 breezy_ has joined
 248 2014-07-07 01:48:56 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well.... could detect when a peer connects with a height less than ours and spam them with block headers we think they need
 249 2014-07-07 01:49:04 <gmaxwell> The headers aren't the long pole in the process in any case, even on early blocks, ... I think excessive seralization on the early blocks is much more of a factor.
 250 2014-07-07 01:49:13 * sipa votes: ignore 'startingheight' entirely
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 252 2014-07-07 01:49:28 <gmaxwell> yea, startingheight is useless.
 253 2014-07-07 01:49:45 <phantomcircuit> but the pretty progress bar
 254 2014-07-07 01:49:48 anton000 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 255 2014-07-07 01:49:52 <phantomcircuit> or is that just using checkpoints now
 256 2014-07-07 01:50:05 Dizzle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 257 2014-07-07 01:50:05 <gmaxwell> I'd like that whenever we do a new addr message we do a new kind of ping message where the peer gives you its current bestblock/height and network time.
 258 2014-07-07 01:50:10 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it uses the wallclock
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 260 2014-07-07 01:50:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh that's a neat way to do it
 261 2014-07-07 01:50:33 <phantomcircuit> heh
 262 2014-07-07 01:50:35 <gmaxwell> sure as hell doesn't use bullshit-o-tron, ahem, I mean starting height. :P
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 270 2014-07-07 01:54:42 <gmaxwell> (one of the reasons starting height is useless is that it never changes)
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 365 2014-07-07 02:59:19 <skinnkavaj> sipa: Why wouldn't you like LTC securing BTC's network? Litecoin would be BTCs bitch, _insertcoin_ would be Litecoins bitch..? Wouldn't it make the network more secure?
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 367 2014-07-07 03:00:23 <justanotheruser> skinnkavaj: how could litecoin secure bitcoin without a hardfork?
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 370 2014-07-07 03:01:05 <gmaxwell> please take this elsewhere.
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 372 2014-07-07 03:01:37 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: sorry, I didn't realize this was -dev
 373 2014-07-07 03:03:01 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: Why? I am curious what is the difference between this and tree chains
 374 2014-07-07 03:03:05 <skinnkavaj> Read this at litecoin forum
 375 2014-07-07 03:03:09 <skinnkavaj> "This community must keep in mind that there are some heavy hitter Bitcoin developers like Greg Maxwell and Adam Back seeking to destroy ALL alt coins via side side chains and or tree chains. It's a good idea. It basically makes Litecoin a side chain to Bitcoin. "
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 377 2014-07-07 03:03:43 <SomeoneWeird> sigh
 378 2014-07-07 03:03:44 <SomeoneWeird> offtopic
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 380 2014-07-07 03:03:55 <SomeoneWeird> take it somewhere else or be kicked
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 387 2014-07-07 03:06:00 <justanotheruser> skinnkavaj: ##altcoin-dev
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 709 2014-07-07 07:54:59 <wumpus> tcatm: warren: does anyone know why "accepting translations" is off for bitcoin on transifex?
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 713 2014-07-07 07:56:41 <wumpus> anyhow, re-enabled it for now
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 716 2014-07-07 08:00:57 <warren> wumpus: I didn't touch it
 717 2014-07-07 08:01:27 <wumpus> warren: thought so, maybe I accidentally did it when changing the sync url
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 731 2014-07-07 08:13:43 <wumpus> I actually posted to the translations mailing list!
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 740 2014-07-07 08:22:15 <fanquake> There's a translations mailing list?
 741 2014-07-07 08:22:30 <wumpus> yes! thanks to warren
 742 2014-07-07 08:22:43 <wumpus> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bitcoin-translators/9P3r_HWfhkQ
 743 2014-07-07 08:22:59 <fanquake> Cheers
 744 2014-07-07 08:23:08 <wumpus> it's not very well known, maybe we need a notice to the README
 745 2014-07-07 08:23:42 <fanquake> Can do
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 747 2014-07-07 08:24:18 <wumpus> you're going to add it? thanks
 748 2014-07-07 08:24:50 <fanquake> Yep, I will in a minute.
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1106 2014-07-07 12:50:04 <plato> still stuck on win7 Moneychanger build, still offering 0.05 BTC if you can help me fix it
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1108 2014-07-07 12:50:14 <plato> plus 50 stackexchange bounty :D http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/28293/building-win7-moneychanger-where-to-put-ot-dlls-how-to-fix-was-unexpected
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1112 2014-07-07 12:51:01 <sipa> maybe da2ce7 knows, plato
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1130 2014-07-07 13:05:21 <plato> sipa: i hope so :D
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1301 2014-07-07 15:40:58 <czaanja> Hi there, please how can i convert standard pem cetificate to the format bip70 pki_data accepts?
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1304 2014-07-07 15:44:20 * Luke-Jr wonders how easy/clean it would be to copy all the binaries to the main dir when done
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1312 2014-07-07 15:48:54 <wumpus> why would you, if you want it in another directory then build it in another directory
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1318 2014-07-07 15:55:18 <gavinandresen> FYI: I wrote a blog post RE: floating fees in the next release:   https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/07/07/floating-fees/
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1320 2014-07-07 15:55:34 <gavinandresen> … let me know if I said something stupid, I’ll fix it.
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1324 2014-07-07 15:58:05 <gmaxwell> I wonder if 2 might be a better setting by default, simply to make sure there is room to turn it up before driving up the stuff.
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1327 2014-07-07 16:00:37 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: huh? I'm talking about the directory I'm building it in ;)
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1330 2014-07-07 16:01:44 <gmaxwell> er s/the stuff/ market prices.
1331 2014-07-07 16:01:52 <gmaxwell> In any case, I see no foot-in-mouth in the blog post. :)
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1333 2014-07-07 16:02:18 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: do you know if anyone is working on re-spending coins that don't confirm or otherwise un-stucking them?
1334 2014-07-07 16:02:24 <jcorgan> gavinandresen: nice writeup; would like to suggest moving a bit of explanation up front
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1338 2014-07-07 16:03:59 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: heh, I just use `make install`
1339 2014-07-07 16:04:33 <michagogo> (with the directory set at configure time)
1340 2014-07-07 16:04:54 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: jeff’s memory pool janitor would be a good start to a re-spend-coins-that-don’t-confirm.
1341 2014-07-07 16:04:54 <jcorgan> bitcoin transaction fees are used in three places--what the payer decides to offer, whether nodes decide to relay the transaction, and whether miners decide to include the TX in the block they are working on.  The new floating fees give the payer much more information about this last.
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1343 2014-07-07 16:05:24 <michagogo> Hm, what are your thoughts on a button in the GUI to throw away a conflicted transaction?
1344 2014-07-07 16:05:28 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: … and of course Mr. Todd’s replace-with-higher-fee stuff.
1345 2014-07-07 16:05:43 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I mean on the wallet side ;)
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1347 2014-07-07 16:05:44 <jcorgan> as it currently reads it kinda sounds like the software decides instead of the user
1348 2014-07-07 16:06:01 <gmaxwell> e.g. "try to spend this txout to myself until conflicted"
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1350 2014-07-07 16:06:05 <michagogo> At the moment you need to either use -zapwallettxes and rescan, or use something like pywallet
1351 2014-07-07 16:06:05 <Luke-Jr> there's of course ways to deal with it on the mining side already (child-pays-for-parent too)
1352 2014-07-07 16:06:09 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: no.  It shouldn’t be needed with smart fees, they just should never get stuck in the first place.
1353 2014-07-07 16:06:17 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: "should" is one thing..
1354 2014-07-07 16:06:20 <gavinandresen> (which is a much better user experience)
1355 2014-07-07 16:06:30 <gavinandresen> Well, if they do get stuck, there is a bug that needs fixing.
1356 2014-07-07 16:06:57 <Luke-Jr> yes, but in the meantime I get nagged every few days to manually confirm them :p
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1361 2014-07-07 16:09:39 <gavinandresen> jcorgan: the software does decide, by default. You can override its decisions if you wish. The blog post is aimed mainly at sophisticated bitcoind users:  I assume casual users aren’t using Bitcoin-Qt any more.
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1364 2014-07-07 16:09:53 <jcorgan> ah, fair point
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1371 2014-07-07 16:12:31 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: RE: more-than-one-confirmation as the default: I suspect that could actually lead to Bad Things Happening.  If there was a perfect steady-state X transactions go in every 10 minutes and miners include X transactions in their blocks, then they all get confirmed within 1 block.  That is the steady-state we want to aim for.
1372 2014-07-07 16:13:07 <jcorgan> Hmm, are there any "commonly used" wallets anymore that participate in the consensus?
1373 2014-07-07 16:13:37 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: … if everybody aims for two blocks…  I’m guessing everybody would underpay and we’d end up with too many transactions
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1381 2014-07-07 16:17:29 <jcorgan> gavinandresen: re: target audience, while you are aiming for sophisticated users, whatever you in particular say will be quoted and mis-quoted by many people, as you even reference at the beginning
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1384 2014-07-07 16:17:51 <gavinandresen> jcorgan: yup.  More words won’t fix that problem, though.
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1446 2014-07-07 17:11:05 <Joric> hi all
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1563 2014-07-07 18:53:53 <deego> https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/07/07/floating-fees/ - nice!
1564 2014-07-07 18:54:23 <deego> After all this fancy calculation, can't it pretty please pop up a window asking us to confirm and/or alter the amount so calculated?
1565 2014-07-07 18:54:42 <deego> (pop up only if this transaction is being manually sent, that is. )
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1712 2014-07-07 20:26:23 <Guest34133> Where can I find the docs on P2SH?
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1714 2014-07-07 20:26:31 <Guest34133> I need to write a multisig redemption script where the 2of3 address represents a contract, and the signing combinations represent the payout.
1715 2014-07-07 20:26:36 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0016.mediawiki
1716 2014-07-07 20:26:39 <Guest34133> There will be three redemption transactions: one for #1 and #2 signing the 20f3 input, one for #1 and #3 signing, and a transaction for #2 and #3 signing the 2of3.
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1721 2014-07-07 20:29:15 <Guest34133> gmaxwell: is what I'm designing even feasible with P2SH?
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1725 2014-07-07 20:30:35 <Eliel_> Guest34133: that transaction type is the primary reason for P2SH being created.
1726 2014-07-07 20:32:35 <Guest34133> would it be feasible to implement: signer #1 AND signer #2 and NOT signer #3?  Just starting to read the wiki :-)
1727 2014-07-07 20:33:18 <Eliel_> you just push in a small placeholder value for the missing signatures
1728 2014-07-07 20:33:22 <jgarzik> Typically there is _one_ redemption transaction.  you may need to pass it around your co-signers privately, before publishing on the blockchain.
1729 2014-07-07 20:33:52 <jgarzik> Guest34133, "not signer #3" doesn't really work.  they would just... not sign it.
1730 2014-07-07 20:34:21 <jgarzik> technically you can construct things like that, but you might not want what you think you want :)
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1732 2014-07-07 20:35:40 <Eliel_> jgarzik: I think he's just thinking too hard and overdesigning it in his head. :)
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1734 2014-07-07 20:36:04 <Guest34133> the contract pays different amounts depending on the outcome of work accomplished.
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1736 2014-07-07 20:36:42 <jgarzik> yeah, indeed, that would require unlocking multiple bitcoin transactions
1737 2014-07-07 20:36:51 <Guest34133> ok, I'm reading BIP16
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1739 2014-07-07 20:37:12 <gmaxwell> It's not clear to me precisely what you're asking for.  The signers can choose to sign or not sign any particular transaction.
1740 2014-07-07 20:37:15 <jgarzik> Guest34133, study script first.  P2SH is hash(script)
1741 2014-07-07 20:37:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, he probably wants something closer to a key-is-revealed-if
1742 2014-07-07 20:37:48 <Eliel_> Guest34133: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
1743 2014-07-07 20:39:28 <kazcw> Guest34133: is this an agreement between exactly 3 people? who is paying into the address to be distributed according to these rules?
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1749 2014-07-07 20:43:50 <jgarzik> kazcw, an automated thingy that pays different amounts based on $criteria cannot be based on a single transaction's multi-sig alone
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1751 2014-07-07 20:44:33 <jgarzik> though certainly multiple signers may "control" (collectively) a group of unspent outputs, and selectively approve spends of them
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1757 2014-07-07 20:51:09 <kazcw> jgarzik: yeah, it sounds like there are 3 possible outcome distributions which means 3 txes will need to be signed before anyone pays in. From the limited details Guest34133 has provided, I'm picturing the parties creating a 3-of-3 and signing 3 txes from it, each of which requires 2 additional signatures -- which would be a straightforward custom script, although if this is a one-off thing it may be easier just to have those txes each have 2
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1762 2014-07-07 20:54:08 <jgarzik> it can be as simple as "sign the variant $you approve", depending on work outcome, with preparing TX variants for each situation known in advance
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1825 2014-07-07 21:44:40 <ryan-c> is the algorithm needed to estimate what fee is needed for a transaction take an expected N blocks to confirm?
1826 2014-07-07 21:44:43 <ryan-c> er
1827 2014-07-07 21:44:47 <ryan-c> is it posted anywhere?
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1830 2014-07-07 21:45:54 <Luke-Jr> in the code…
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1832 2014-07-07 21:47:18 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: Do you know specifically where?
1833 2014-07-07 21:47:28 <kuzetsa> I wasn't aware of any reproducable correlation between fee size VS time to confirmation
1834 2014-07-07 21:48:14 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1835 2014-07-07 21:48:24 <ryan-c> I looked for a bit and didn't find it.
1836 2014-07-07 21:48:52 <kuzetsa> confirmations are handled by miners, and not all pools use the same criteria for sorting transactions by fee
1837 2014-07-07 21:49:32 <kuzetsa> it's not a reproducable thing / there is no formula to guarantee a certain amount of N blocks to get a confirmation with fee size X
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1841 2014-07-07 21:50:56 <ryan-c> kuzetsa: I don't care about a guarantee, just an average.
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1843 2014-07-07 21:52:04 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/07/07/floating-fees/
1844 2014-07-07 21:52:08 <arubi> it's not about the miners, it's about relay fee
1845 2014-07-07 21:52:21 <kuzetsa> it's deterministic, and it's procedurally determined based on how many transactions are in the mempool for the pool (or solo miner, p2pool node, etc.) to generate the block
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1847 2014-07-07 21:52:49 <kuzetsa> Luke-Jr: that doesn't exist yet
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1849 2014-07-07 21:52:54 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: it does
1850 2014-07-07 21:53:01 <kuzetsa> it's not live on the network / pools though
1851 2014-07-07 21:53:08 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: it's not a network/pool thing.
1852 2014-07-07 21:53:11 daybyter has joined
1853 2014-07-07 21:53:12 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: its a statistical observation based on the actual network, not a formula.
1854 2014-07-07 21:53:12 ingvij has joined
1855 2014-07-07 21:53:28 <gmaxwell> (well, not a closed formula)
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1864 2014-07-07 21:58:45 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: as I understand, the "floating fees" thing is based on running a node which makes observations based on how long something sits around in the mempool before landing in a block, right?
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1866 2014-07-07 21:59:18 <kuzetsa> I wasn't aware 0.10 is finally going to attempt to extrapolate how fast transactions can confirm like that.
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1869 2014-07-07 22:00:54 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Yeah, I understand that it's a statistical observation, I was curious how it was done.
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1874 2014-07-07 22:04:08 <kuzetsa> ryan-c: it's from the "smartfee_wallet" branch
1875 2014-07-07 22:04:38 <aschildbach> I wonder how SPV wallets are supposed to observe fees?
1876 2014-07-07 22:04:41 <ryan-c> kuzetsa: After re-reading it again, I misunderstood that chart the first time, it's plotting BTC/KB in fees.
1877 2014-07-07 22:04:46 <aschildbach> (in future, with floating fees)
1878 2014-07-07 22:05:18 <kuzetsa> ryan-c: well yeah, because fees are BTC/KB
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1880 2014-07-07 22:05:48 <kuzetsa> that's how a miner decides if a fee is large enough, it's based on the size (measured in kilobytes) of a transaction
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1882 2014-07-07 22:05:53 <aschildbach> SPV wallets don't know any fee because they don't know the value of the inputs.
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1885 2014-07-07 22:06:34 <ryan-c> I always thought of the fees in terms of BTC/ceil(size/1000)
1886 2014-07-07 22:06:45 <ryan-c> which is maybe wrong
1887 2014-07-07 22:07:13 <kuzetsa> yeah, I'm really not sure how it's done anymore :(
1888 2014-07-07 22:07:16 <ryan-c> but the chart in that blog post doesn't quantize the size of the transactions
1889 2014-07-07 22:07:35 <ryan-c> it's the raw size values
1890 2014-07-07 22:08:01 <ryan-c> so you see transactions of varying sizes based on the number of output addresses that are under 1000 bytes
1891 2014-07-07 22:08:21 <ryan-c> they probably mostly have 0.0001BTC fees set, but the bigger ones take longer to confirm.
1892 2014-07-07 22:08:56 <arubi> I think you're missing a zero there? not sure
1893 2014-07-07 22:09:06 <ryan-c> Am I?
1894 2014-07-07 22:09:13 <ryan-c> I don't think I am.
1895 2014-07-07 22:09:30 <arubi> a 250 byte tx shoud be 0.00001 ?  I may be wrong
1896 2014-07-07 22:09:50 <ryan-c> Most fees for small transactions that would otherwise be low priority are 10k satoshis
1897 2014-07-07 22:10:10 <ryan-c> but the minimum for relay is 1k satoshis
1898 2014-07-07 22:10:29 <arubi> I see, good enough.
1899 2014-07-07 22:10:36 <ryan-c> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
1900 2014-07-07 22:10:43 <ryan-c> not sure how up to date that is
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1903 2014-07-07 22:11:47 <arubi> "Then transactions that pay a fee of at least 0.00001 BTC/kb are added to the block" ?
1904 2014-07-07 22:11:58 <arubi> It's really late here.. I'm probably missing stuff
1905 2014-07-07 22:12:41 <ryan-c> arubi: ... highest-fee-per-kilobyte transactions first
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1907 2014-07-07 22:12:53 <qwupz> Hey, I was reading the floating fee post
1908 2014-07-07 22:12:57 <qwupz> "I expect to see transaction fees rise until a good solution for optimizing the propagation of blocks across the network is deployed, because I expect transaction volume to increase and I don’t think miners will include more transactions in their blocks until somebody fixes the “bigger blocks take longer to broadcast” problem.
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1910 2014-07-07 22:13:03 <qwupz> I was thinking about this
1911 2014-07-07 22:13:05 <ryan-c> kuzetsa: smartfee_wallet? I don't see that branch under bitcoin/bitcoin
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1913 2014-07-07 22:13:28 <qwupz> couldn't miner just publish block headers and the transactions in two different stages?
1914 2014-07-07 22:13:31 <ryan-c> qwupz: did you read the thing gmaxwell wrote about that?
1915 2014-07-07 22:13:35 <arubi> I'll just accept my mistake then. can't argue much
1916 2014-07-07 22:13:41 <qwupz> the rest of the network could keep mining on top of the new block header
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1919 2014-07-07 22:14:25 <qwupz> if the tx data isn't received in a reasonable timeframe (3 blocks?), the block is considered "invalid", stays on the chain but contains no transactions
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1921 2014-07-07 22:14:35 <qwupz> (and the coinbase is also lost)
1922 2014-07-07 22:15:15 <ryan-c> qwupz: You could mine on top of the header only, yes.
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1924 2014-07-07 22:15:32 <qwupz> wow, this network had some serious lag
1925 2014-07-07 22:15:33 <ryan-c> there's probably good reasons not to, I don't know, I haven't thought about it much.
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1927 2014-07-07 22:15:42 <ryan-c> qwupz: freenode?
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1929 2014-07-07 22:15:46 <qwupz> yeah ryan-c
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1932 2014-07-07 22:15:53 <qwupz> i had like 150 second lag
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1934 2014-07-07 22:16:29 <ryan-c> qwupz: are you using xchat?
1935 2014-07-07 22:16:34 <qwupz> irssi
1936 2014-07-07 22:16:47 <ryan-c> I am getting prompt server responses to ping
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1938 2014-07-07 22:16:58 <qwupz> maybe my leaf was overloaded
1939 2014-07-07 22:16:59 <ryan-c> freenode gets DDoSed pretty regularly.
1940 2014-07-07 22:17:00 <qwupz> it's smooth now tho
1941 2014-07-07 22:17:23 <qwupz> in fact, there is one issue with that idea
1942 2014-07-07 22:17:28 <qwupz> there could be some inconsistencies
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1945 2014-07-07 22:17:52 <ryan-c> qwupz: merged mining does something like that
1946 2014-07-07 22:17:54 <qwupz> e.g. a miner withholds the txes of his block, double spends and gets it confirmed on next block
1947 2014-07-07 22:18:20 <qwupz> then publishes his txes and they're now all invalid
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1950 2014-07-07 22:18:43 <ryan-c> qwupz: you should take a look at the writeup linked at the bottom of that blog post, it avoids that problem
1951 2014-07-07 22:18:54 <qwupz> https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/07/07/floating-fees/
1952 2014-07-07 22:18:58 <qwupz> i'm not seeing any link
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1954 2014-07-07 22:19:25 <ryan-c> "figuring it out"
1955 2014-07-07 22:19:26 <ryan-c> last line
1956 2014-07-07 22:19:35 <qwupz> ah
1957 2014-07-07 22:19:39 <qwupz> it's a link
1958 2014-07-07 22:19:45 <qwupz> i didn't notice the color
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1960 2014-07-07 22:19:56 <ryan-c> yeah, i guess it's not underlined
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