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3 2014-07-08 00:01:05 <ninjashogun> hi
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5 2014-07-08 00:01:31 <ninjashogun> any plans to add demurrage to bitcoin protocol? (in any form)
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8 2014-07-08 00:02:09 <kazcw> ninjashogun: !bc,wiki prohibited changes
9 2014-07-08 00:02:18 <kazcw> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes
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21 2014-07-08 00:11:41 <ninjashogun> EVERY bitcoin-holder? And if you can't reach them?
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23 2014-07-08 00:13:10 <kazcw> ninjashogun: determining whether every bitcoin holder agrees can be much easier than you think; just use short-circuit evaluation
24 2014-07-08 00:14:16 <ninjashogun> kazcw - very funny. My point is why bother writing that stuff. You might as well write, "The following can be considered only in case 1 == 0"
25 2014-07-08 00:14:36 <kazcw> that could be why the paged is named "prohibited changes"
26 2014-07-08 00:14:39 <ninjashogun> because that's actually more likely than having every single bitcoin-holder's consent.
27 2014-07-08 00:14:46 <ninjashogun> kazcw, good point.
28 2014-07-08 00:15:13 <ninjashogun> it's just a red herring. I can imagine it's meaningful to talk about total consent, but with some "drag-along provisions" (google that phrase)
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32 2014-07-08 00:15:56 <kazcw> not that the wiki is authoritative, but I think it's undeniable that such a change would at best fork us into two networks, where many people refuse to accept the modifications -- making such change totally infeasible
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34 2014-07-08 00:16:47 <kuzetsa> demurrage doesn't sound like it could ever be universally accepted in bitcoin, no.
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36 2014-07-08 00:17:09 <kuzetsa> I'd hazard a guess & say more people are against such things than they are in favor
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38 2014-07-08 00:18:03 <ninjashogun> it's feasible... I mean, take the situation where Fork 2 gets much wider adoption (like the us dollar) being inflationary, causing people holding it to want to spend it, (and more people to accept it), new coins introduced as loans into the system, etc.
39 2014-07-08 00:18:15 <ninjashogun> It is very easy to imagine that in this scenario holders of Fork A coins would want to trade for Fork B.
40 2014-07-08 00:18:24 <kuzetsa> ...
41 2014-07-08 00:18:34 <belcher> if that ever happens im buying litecoin
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43 2014-07-08 00:18:38 <ninjashogun> Just like people stopped using gold as literal small-coin currency in the wild west, as paper became standard.
44 2014-07-08 00:18:47 <kuzetsa> belcher: lol nice :)
45 2014-07-08 00:18:51 <ryan-c> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-along_right < That. That basically says "majority wins"
46 2014-07-08 00:19:02 <belcher> thats why these alts exist right? to help keep bitcoin honest
47 2014-07-08 00:19:02 <ninjashogun> ryan-c not exactly. There are exceptions.
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50 2014-07-08 00:19:25 <ninjashogun> ryan-c, the major point of drag-along rights is that some 0.005% holder who bought ten shares can't keep your hugely profitable multibillion dollar merger from going through by vetoing it.
51 2014-07-08 00:19:42 <belcher> yeah
52 2014-07-08 00:19:45 <belcher> so 51% is enough
53 2014-07-08 00:19:58 <belcher> like it is in mining, but for adoption you need consensus, the whole 100%
54 2014-07-08 00:20:02 <ninjashogun> well, that question has been lost. It's already 51% control by one entity at several recent points.
55 2014-07-08 00:20:11 <belcher> for mining, not for nodes
56 2014-07-08 00:20:22 <ninjashogun> I'm really interested in the question of demurrage.
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58 2014-07-08 00:20:37 <ryan-c> ninjashogun: Nobody can say with confidence that ghash.io ever had over 50%.
59 2014-07-08 00:20:40 <kuzetsa> why is this talk going on here instead of #bitcoin anyway?
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63 2014-07-08 00:21:22 <ninjashogun> I've recently been in talks (I'm a startup founder BTW) with people hoding six-seven figures (fiat) in BTC. But to consider hte idea of lending it to me for any appreciable time, i would have to cover the deflatoinary costs in my return. Totally infeasible. So I can' taccept their bitcoins on all but the shortest terms, to spend in the real world and produce value. That seems to be a negative for a currency.
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65 2014-07-08 00:21:32 <ryan-c> I should do that analysis, actually.
66 2014-07-08 00:21:42 <ninjashogun> ryan-c, go for it!
67 2014-07-08 00:21:51 <ninjashogun> kuzetsa, main reason is that I was interested in demurrage dev plans (if any).
68 2014-07-08 00:22:45 <ryan-c> ninjashogun: I actually have code written that produced mining pool proportions over a block interval with confidence intervals.
69 2014-07-08 00:22:46 <kuzetsa> well I, for one, would jump ship if that ever happened with bitcoin.
70 2014-07-08 00:23:00 <ninjashogun> it would seem an absolute HUGE boon to adoptoin for at least 3 reasons. (Demurrage = tax on holding, so people likely to spend. Mechanism can be giving out loans in a centralized/mined way, tha tmust be repaid - then that can enable real-world value production; thirdly, if people have it and want to spend it (having just received loans for example) others will prop up to accept it.)
71 2014-07-08 00:23:14 <kazcw> demurrage is not a #bitcoin-dev topic
72 2014-07-08 00:23:25 <ninjashogun> okay, moving to bitcoin, anyone welcome to follow this convo there
73 2014-07-08 00:23:29 <ninjashogun> my next sentence there continues:
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621 2014-07-08 05:34:26 <whorunit> are there any current proposals/efforts to devise a method of rewarding fullnodes?
622 2014-07-08 05:34:57 <justanotheruser> whorunit: I don't think you can trustlessly verify that someone is running a full node
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625 2014-07-08 05:38:23 <whorunit> well using erasure codes you could prove that your node is storing the entire blockchain in a way
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627 2014-07-08 05:39:21 <justanotheruser> whorunit: and how do you prevent me from doing this 100000000 times and collecting 10000000 times the reward one blockchain should receive
628 2014-07-08 05:39:43 <justanotheruser> *one blockchain posessor
629 2014-07-08 05:39:58 <whorunit> and also maybe propagation of blocks/txs should be an incentive
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631 2014-07-08 05:41:00 <whorunit> TorCoin has a pretty interesting proof of bandwidth concept that could be applied to rewarding fullnodes
632 2014-07-08 05:50:34 <justanotheruser> whorunit: if their idea wasn't centralized, it would be vulnerable to sybil attacks
633 2014-07-08 05:50:59 <justanotheruser> propogation of blocks/txs isn't trustlessly verifiable
634 2014-07-08 05:52:05 <justanotheruser> think about this: the reason we know someone did a certain amount of work based on their block hash is because we have the assumptions that hashes are unpredictable, therefore a certain amount of resource needs to be expended to get that hash.
635 2014-07-08 05:52:32 <justanotheruser> It doesn't require a trusted party, you can verify the hash yourself and it is easy
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637 2014-07-08 05:53:16 <justanotheruser> Now, lets think about what happens when someone is running a full node. Basically what we would want to incentivize is block and transaction propogation.
638 2014-07-08 05:53:42 <justanotheruser> How do you prove a piece of data went from your computer to another nodes computer?
639 2014-07-08 05:54:04 <justanotheruser> Well you know it happened. They know it happened. The ISPs in the middle know it happened.
640 2014-07-08 05:55:19 <justanotheruser> So you have to chose one of those parties to trust. If you always trust the sender, the sender could make up 100000000000 imaginary nodes and say "were all full nodes working together and transmitting lots of data, pay us".
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654 2014-07-08 06:18:34 <throughnothing> is it possible to have > 1 output of a transaction point to the same address
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693 2014-07-08 07:31:43 <sipa> throughnothing: yes
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695 2014-07-08 07:32:30 <Hola0123> Hello everybody
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697 2014-07-08 07:33:13 <Hola0123> Someone know if is it possible to put our own data in Tradingview ?
698 2014-07-08 07:35:59 <Eliel_> whorunit: I think the best idea is to use a Proof of Work algorithm that works on blockchain data.
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702 2014-07-08 07:39:44 <sipa> Hola0123: no clue what you're talking about
703 2014-07-08 07:42:58 <czaanja> Hello, please can anyone help me to convert standard pem certificate to the format bip70 pki_data accepts?
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850 2014-07-08 11:50:12 <gmaxwell> damnit, who's confirming this massive 1e-8 dust? e.g. https://blockchain.info/tx/5e5d17901378b8835861d8cc0df2b5f9bf3c86759c3821f96470cd852344d799
851 2014-07-08 11:50:48 <gmaxwell> this enjoy sochi stuff has started again, and some idiot miner is confirming it.
852 2014-07-08 11:51:23 <gmaxwell> "bcpool.io" in their coinbase.
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856 2014-07-08 11:53:23 <someone1> can anyone help with transaction fee setting (dynamically, for individual transactions) ?
857 2014-07-08 11:55:19 <Graet> bcpool.io is the pools url too gmaxwell , never heard of them before
858 2014-07-08 11:56:10 <gmaxwell> I sent them a message through their contact us form.
859 2014-07-08 11:56:23 <Graet> :)
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861 2014-07-08 11:57:01 <gmaxwell> as an aside, if anyone running recieved any of that spam, https://github.com/petertodd/dust-b-gone is a good way to get rid of it.
862 2014-07-08 11:57:15 <gmaxwell> er anyone running bitcoin core* :)
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890 2014-07-08 12:41:07 <gigavps> funnily enough, i got a piece of that dust txn
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892 2014-07-08 12:42:34 <gmaxwell> gigavps: well no surprise, if not that one â one of the others, there are zillions.
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894 2014-07-08 12:43:39 <gigavps> are there any patches for bitcoind to not relay txn such as that?
895 2014-07-08 12:44:37 <hearn> there are already "dust rules" for a long time. they are somewhat arbitrary.
896 2014-07-08 12:45:13 <hearn> the Enjoy Sochi spam is hidden by SPV wallets, I think
897 2014-07-08 12:45:16 <hearn> in their latest versions
898 2014-07-08 12:45:49 <hearn> czaanja: PEM is just a way to base64 encode the certificates. get a base 64 decoder for your language
899 2014-07-08 12:45:56 <gmaxwell> hearn: not if confirmed, I believe.
900 2014-07-08 12:46:04 <hearn> ah yes. that's true.
901 2014-07-08 12:46:21 <hearn> well, i keep telling wallet devs to stop showing the "from address"
902 2014-07-08 12:46:28 <hearn> they don't always listen to me though :)
903 2014-07-08 12:46:39 <gmaxwell> the issue in the past was that stuff circulating but not being confirmed, but some of it was confirmed there. I've already sent mail to nag the miner about what they've done to remove that limit. :)
904 2014-07-08 12:46:44 <gmaxwell> hearn: thanks. :-/ yea....
905 2014-07-08 12:47:24 <justanotheruser> OP_SHA256 doesn't hash the scriptsig does it?
906 2014-07-08 12:47:32 <hearn> hive does the right thing
907 2014-07-08 12:47:40 <hearn> not sure which wallets they're targeting with that spam. maybe multibit/android wallet.
908 2014-07-08 12:47:44 <hearn> or blockchain
909 2014-07-08 12:47:49 <hearn> i guess there can be lots which would show the message
910 2014-07-08 12:48:04 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: huh? noâ it just hashes the top object on the stack, same as the other hash opcodes.
911 2014-07-08 12:48:15 <hearn> given that sochi is long over though i wonder what the point is ..... the only one i can think of is advertising, but seems kind of pointless to do that now
912 2014-07-08 12:48:26 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: ohh, thats what it means by "input"
913 2014-07-08 12:48:45 <gmaxwell> hearn: well it can be a deanoymization attack, e.g. if you merge it with payments to other addresses.
914 2014-07-08 12:48:58 <hearn> then where are they getting the addresses from?
915 2014-07-08 12:49:15 <hearn> web crawl?
916 2014-07-08 12:49:18 <gigavps> hearn addresses with balances maybe?
917 2014-07-08 12:49:21 <wumpus> block chain crawl
918 2014-07-08 12:49:38 <gmaxwell> they're previously paid addresses. At least some I checked had been completely spent long ago.
919 2014-07-08 12:49:41 <hearn> linking together arbitrary addresses in the block chain doesn't require you to spam stuff though. just ..... wait until they are combined naturally
920 2014-07-08 12:49:51 <gmaxwell> hearn: unless they're already spent completely.
921 2014-07-08 12:50:04 <wumpus> yes they're all previously paid addresses
922 2014-07-08 12:50:07 <hearn> if you found them via a web crawl then it would let you link new addresses with identities, maybe
923 2014-07-08 12:50:17 <gmaxwell> e.g. it gets people who normally do not reuse addresses.
924 2014-07-08 12:50:48 <wumpus> and the transactions are huge in themselves, and they don't pay enough fee (at least not last time) so it's crazy that they made it into a block
925 2014-07-08 12:51:05 <hearn> i guess they aged into a high enough priority band
926 2014-07-08 12:51:14 <hearn> they could always make smaller transactions, anyway
927 2014-07-08 12:51:23 <hearn> probably best to just ignore them for now
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929 2014-07-08 12:51:33 <gmaxwell> hearn: because its dust outputs it would never get mined in stock bitcoin core, regardless of age.
930 2014-07-08 12:52:04 <hearn> right. i mean if the miner disabled the IsStandard/dust rules
931 2014-07-08 12:52:13 <hearn> or perhaps set their -txfee=0 or something
932 2014-07-08 12:52:17 <hearn> given that dustyness is calculated based on the fee
933 2014-07-08 12:52:31 <gmaxwell> right.
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938 2014-07-08 12:55:04 <sneekee> hello
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985 2014-07-08 14:08:56 <gmaxwell> FWIW, I'm going to pick up and continue the don't use third party what is my IP patch. (just mentioning it so of the reddit thread caused someone to do the same thing we don't duplicate effort).
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989 2014-07-08 14:11:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I want to see somebody start working on optimizing block propagation, maybe based on your block network coding thoughts. Know if anybody is already working on that? Or know anybody who might work on that if paid a steady salary?
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997 2014-07-08 14:22:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, if the mined transaction set was predictable, you could just relay the proofs (and not the whole list of transactions all over again)
998 2014-07-08 14:22:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ^
999 2014-07-08 14:22:35 <jgarzik> of course, will miners buy into such a scheme? Cannot be determined...
1000 2014-07-08 14:23:13 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: hm. I'm not sure. I can ask some people who've worked on some things in this space if they'd be interested.
1001 2014-07-08 14:23:26 <gavinandresen> I think there are two parts of the puzzle: First is having miners broadcast the blocks they are working on before a solution is found to âprime the pumpâ.
1002 2014-07-08 14:23:41 <gavinandresen> Second is to optimize the data sent (the data encoding)
1003 2014-07-08 14:23:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the block-network-coding page sketches how you can get the same bandwidth savings without having to fix the transaction list exactly, though it requires a fair amount of complexity.
1004 2014-07-08 14:23:59 <jgarzik> you only need to prime the pump with TXs. proof is tiny.
1005 2014-07-08 14:24:12 <gavinandresen> right
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1007 2014-07-08 14:24:23 <gmaxwell> p2pool does the pump prime already.
1008 2014-07-08 14:24:30 <gavinandresen> ⦠and the pump primes itself mostly because the transactions are broadcast independently first....
1009 2014-07-08 14:24:44 <jgarzik> yep (and cached)
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1011 2014-07-08 14:25:05 <gmaxwell> (and p2pool sends just the proof.. for its own blocks)
1012 2014-07-08 14:25:08 <gavinandresen> in any case, I want somebody to figure it all out and Make It So.
1013 2014-07-08 14:25:13 <gmaxwell> Right.
1014 2014-07-08 14:25:21 <gavinandresen> Or several somebodies, there doesnât have to be just one answer/approach.
1015 2014-07-08 14:25:22 <jgarzik> you just don't want to [frequently] degenerate into a mode where you got the proof, and a bunch of nodes lack the data to verify the proof, requiring a query
1016 2014-07-08 14:25:55 <gavinandresen> I expect optimizing block broadcast could be a rich area for PhD dissertations.....
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1018 2014-07-08 14:26:30 <gavinandresen> â¦mmm, no, Masters projects....
1019 2014-07-08 14:26:42 <gmaxwell> an interesting possibility would be to just support a pruned block block relay in the simple way where you need an extra RTT if the pump isn't primed, and then the incentive is to mine blocks containing only transactions that were well propagated.
1020 2014-07-08 14:27:27 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes, incentivizing promiscuous transaction and block relay is a good thing
1021 2014-07-08 14:28:36 <gmaxwell> it gets 100% of the bandwidth advantages of anything smarter, and if the block contains 100% already relayed transactions 100% of the latency advantage.
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1025 2014-07-08 14:29:22 <gavinandresen> well, youâve still got the information about what ORDER the transactions are included in the block you need to prime/broadcast
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1030 2014-07-08 14:32:38 <gmaxwell> It's true. 64kib for 2k txids. One of the advantages of smarter encoding is that you can potentially not send the whole txids. (e.g. just send 32 bits).
1031 2014-07-08 14:34:12 <gavinandresen> yup
1032 2014-07-08 14:36:14 <gavinandresen> In my head, the architecture I see is mining pools broadcasting near-miss blocks using some efficient encoding (based on what they broadcast last time). The network propagating as many as it can, based on bandwidth (dropping based on how near the near missâ¦. might be bad incentives for smaller miners, though, maybe we can do better). So when a block is found propagation happens extremely quickly.
1033 2014-07-08 14:36:49 <gavinandresen> ⦠and this is where gmaxwell tells me that is exactly what p2pool already does....
1034 2014-07-08 14:37:23 <Luke-Jr> I think there are subtle differences, but otherwise yes
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1038 2014-07-08 14:41:07 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yea, it's pretty much what p2pool doesâ it then goes a step further and constrains the coinbases permitted in order to achieve the pooling.
1039 2014-07-08 14:42:08 <gavinandresen> okey dokey. Then I want somebody to take just those bits of p2pool and create a âfast propagating mining backbone networkâ that miners can connect to
1040 2014-07-08 14:42:29 <gavinandresen> ⦠and show them how it will make their orphan rates go from eleven to three.
1041 2014-07-08 14:42:35 <gmaxwell> (and maybe someday we'd do something like that but instead constrain the transaction list, to get faster confirmations for those who care to listen to the fast blocks)
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1043 2014-07-08 14:43:12 <gavinandresen> ⦠and show them they can include more transactions in their blocks without hurting their orphan rates....
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1049 2014-07-08 14:49:36 <jtimon> this reminds me to some talks about "enforced p2pool" on #wizards (which in itself wouldn't prevent regular pooling on top of it, which was also part of those talk but offtopic), it seems it would help with both propagation and double-spend prediction
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1051 2014-07-08 14:50:41 <jtimon> sorry if it is completely offtopic here
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1054 2014-07-08 14:52:17 <gmaxwell> jtimon: I don't think that would be super viable as p2pool exists todayâ it's an interesting exploritory question about what that would look like.
1055 2014-07-08 14:57:58 <jrick> how attackable would it be for someone to submit "blocks" with bogus pow and txs, and for nodes to sit there issuing getdata msgs for the bogus txs?
1056 2014-07-08 14:58:54 <gmaxwell> jrick: you wouldn't getdata the included txn if the POW doesn't pass.
1057 2014-07-08 14:59:24 <gmaxwell> (or even if it didn't connect to the best header chainâ so it's not like sending forks at block=1 would let you use diff=1)
1058 2014-07-08 15:01:09 <jrick> ok, block verification probably works a little differently than how I'm imagining it
1059 2014-07-08 15:01:31 <jrick> I was thinking the full tx was needed
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1062 2014-07-08 15:02:48 <jrick> ok, merkle tree is built from the tx shas, that makes sense
1063 2014-07-08 15:02:49 <Luke-Jr> "those bits of p2pool" lol âº
1064 2014-07-08 15:03:27 <sipa> well we don't fetch transactions separately at all... we get them as part of the block
1065 2014-07-08 15:03:42 <sipa> or are we talking about future optimize-propagation-schemes?
1066 2014-07-08 15:04:32 <jrick> future
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1068 2014-07-08 15:05:44 <gmaxwell> jrick: we do not verify a block all at once.
1069 2014-07-08 15:06:00 <gmaxwell> verification happens in stages, in order based on the cost of the verification and the data required.
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1071 2014-07-08 15:06:19 <gmaxwell> Before we do anything with transactions we do stateless verification like checking the POW difficulty.
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1073 2014-07-08 15:06:43 <sneekee> btw who was saying that satoshi is probably dead?
1074 2014-07-08 15:06:48 <gmaxwell> In some imagined future with optimized-propagation none of the fetching would happen until after those header checks.
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1078 2014-07-08 15:07:15 <gmaxwell> sneekee: I have no idea but it's very offtopic for this channel. Take it to #bitcoin (though perhaps no one in there will care either)
1079 2014-07-08 15:07:47 <jrick> gmaxwell: that makes sense, thanks for the explanation
1080 2014-07-08 15:08:00 <gavinandresen> jrick: in general, we donât care much about âattacksâ where the attacker has to expend as much bandwidth or CPU as the node being attacked.
1081 2014-07-08 15:08:39 <gavinandresen> jrick: we care a LOT about attacks where the attacker can expend just a little effort but get the network or a peer to expend a lot more effort.
1082 2014-07-08 15:08:40 <gmaxwell> or better, as the sum of all nodes being attacked.
1083 2014-07-08 15:08:50 <Anduck> http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2014/07/05/blockpad-improved-proof-of-work-function-with-descentralization-incentives/ this?
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1085 2014-07-08 15:09:41 <gavinandresen> ⦠so âhey, tell me to send you a few gigabytes of dataâ or âhey, send me a few gigabytes of dataâ attacks arenât really very interesting.
1086 2014-07-08 15:10:20 <jrick> gavinandresen: bloom filters too? :)
1087 2014-07-08 15:11:07 <gavinandresen> âhey, search through a few gigabytes of data and then just tell me about a few bytes of itâ <â those are attacks worth paying attention to.
1088 2014-07-08 15:11:28 <dizko> where can I find specific details of how the floating fees will be implemented in 0.10. somewhere in github comments? or is it still being decided?
1089 2014-07-08 15:11:49 <gavinandresen> dizko: txmempool.cpp : see CMinerPolicyEstimator class
1090 2014-07-08 15:11:53 <dizko> ty
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1092 2014-07-08 15:15:40 <dizko> will there be an rpc call to request the estimated fee for a given priority, or if implementing raw transactions will I need to implement the logic myself?
1093 2014-07-08 15:15:53 <sipa> there is, afaik
1094 2014-07-08 15:16:08 <gavinandresen> dizko: yes, see doc/release-notes.md in git HEAD for description
1095 2014-07-08 15:16:14 <dizko> great, thanks again!
1096 2014-07-08 15:16:56 <gavinandresen> dizko: mmm⦠wait....
1097 2014-07-08 15:17:19 <gavinandresen> dizko: the RPC calls give you required priority for a desired target number of confirmations.
1098 2014-07-08 15:18:13 <gavinandresen> ⦠so if youâre creating transactions yourself youâll have to compute the priority (there is no raw transactions API call to do that⦠might be niceâ¦) and compare against your desired âIâm willing to wait this longâ number
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1100 2014-07-08 15:19:43 <dizko> is priority something entirely within the client, for purposes of helping the user determine what to send as, or is this actually part of the protocol? definitely will need to read up
1101 2014-07-08 15:20:15 <sipa> it's purely a policy thing
1102 2014-07-08 15:20:33 <sipa> it's bitcoin-days-destroyed per byte, basically
1103 2014-07-08 15:20:40 <dizko> ahh
1104 2014-07-08 15:21:02 <sipa> and fee for a priority doesn't make sense
1105 2014-07-08 15:21:13 <sipa> either it's a fee paying transaction and it is fee vs confirmation time
1106 2014-07-08 15:21:23 <sipa> or it's a free transaction and it is priority vs confirmation time
1107 2014-07-08 15:21:48 <dizko> ok, im only concerned about the former
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1109 2014-07-08 15:23:24 <Luke-Jr> IMO it'd be a bad idea to expose priority outside of bitcoind
1110 2014-07-08 15:23:43 <Luke-Jr> people might get the impression that it's some actual property of the transaction
1111 2014-07-08 15:24:00 <Luke-Jr> otoh, it's bitcoind.. not meant for end users..
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1114 2014-07-08 15:28:51 <jtimon> Luke-Jr I agree
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1130 2014-07-08 15:46:07 <jcorgan> is the deb build infrastructure in contrib/debian up-to-date?
1131 2014-07-08 15:46:32 <sipa> no clue
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1143 2014-07-08 16:08:03 <jcorgan> it seems to build good packages from master, but they come out versioned as 0.9.1
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1157 2014-07-08 16:38:38 <BlueMatt> jcorgan: its usually updated after release
1158 2014-07-08 16:38:59 <BlueMatt> so its not kept up-to-date there, its just a repository for what the current deb on launchpad is built with
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1162 2014-07-08 16:44:08 <Luke-Jr> we should set up a mailing list people can send their job solicitations for Bitcoin people to..
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1164 2014-07-08 16:44:37 <BlueMatt> ineeda@bitcoin.ninja ;p
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1198 2014-07-08 17:12:00 <eordano> Hi, big question: what is the concensus around here regarding (a) selfish/cartel mining and (b) what would be done in the case that a 51% attack is confirmed to have happened? I've done the exercise of thinking about both of these issues, it looks like it is feasible, and if done by a pool, the miners get the same reward anyway, so there's no disincentive for them to leave the pool.
1199 2014-07-08 17:12:57 <kazcw> I don't think really there's anything to be done if a 51% attack happens, except miners would finally start leaving that pool
1200 2014-07-08 17:13:17 <kazcw> this is very much a #bitcoin question though, let's take it over there
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1213 2014-07-08 17:26:17 <eordano> :) sorry
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1222 2014-07-08 17:34:53 <jcorgan> BlueMatt: thanks
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1271 2014-07-08 18:23:13 <throughnothing> sipa: thanks
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1284 2014-07-08 18:37:56 <dabura667> gavinandresen: Question, was there any buffer between when a tx was first propagated and the "next" block was propagated to account for which block was the "next" block for that tx? I would think that for instance if a tx was first propagated 1 second before a block was received, the tx wouldn't have enough time to be considered for that block, so adding a buffer to make sure that the block 2 seconds after the tx isn't conside
1285 2014-07-08 18:37:57 <dabura667> red "next" seems necessary. Is this how your graph was made? Thanks.
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1289 2014-07-08 18:42:58 <gavinandresen> dabura667: no, no âbufferâ for transactions that are received just before a block is found. Improvements welcome, but before writing a lot of code Iâd advise you to do some back-of-the-envelope calculations to see if it is likely to make a difference in the estimates
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1291 2014-07-08 18:43:21 <gavinandresen> The estimates are based on medians, so noise in the number of confirmations or fees doesnât tend to affect them much.
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1293 2014-07-08 18:44:27 <gavinandresen> dabura667: ⦠you can also run with -debug=estimatefee to get info in debug.log about what the fee estimation code is doing
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1302 2014-07-08 18:48:35 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, can you manually set the fee yet
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1304 2014-07-08 18:49:10 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: sure, -paytxfee has been an option for a long time.
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1306 2014-07-08 18:49:34 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: ⦠or do you mean set the fee per transaction? You can do that, too, using the raw transaction api
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1308 2014-07-08 18:50:39 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i mean per transaction
1309 2014-07-08 18:50:51 <phantomcircuit> and... paytxfee specifies a minimum fee the last i checked
1310 2014-07-08 18:50:59 <phantomcircuit> which isn't very useful
1311 2014-07-08 18:51:28 <SynBTC> Looking for a bit of help. I've generated a multi-sig, but I can't seem to sign a transaction out of the p2sh address. It's the right txid, scripthash, and priv key. But the signrawtransaction spits out the same transaction hex everytime (no matter which key is used). Any thoughts or suggestions?
1312 2014-07-08 18:51:30 chax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1313 2014-07-08 18:51:51 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: raw transaction API is the way to get complete control. Well, almost complete, sendrawtransaction will complain if you try to broadcast a transaction with a fee less than the minimum relay fee
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1316 2014-07-08 18:53:05 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, right i was more thinking with the qt ui
1317 2014-07-08 18:53:15 <phantomcircuit> i can do whatever i want....
1318 2014-07-08 18:54:06 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: âpatches welcomeâ â¦. but there are a lot much higher priority things not getting done for the qt wallet ui that should get done first.
1319 2014-07-08 18:54:48 <sipa> like getting rid of it? *ducks*
1320 2014-07-08 18:55:13 <sipa> well, splitting it off
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1322 2014-07-08 18:55:38 <phantomcircuit> i disagree
1323 2014-07-08 18:55:48 <phantomcircuit> manual fee selection should block floating fees entirely
1324 2014-07-08 18:56:12 <phantomcircuit> you really cant ask people to trust the fee estimation code without an easy way of over riding it
1325 2014-07-08 18:56:16 <dabura667> sipa: if qt's wallet client was separated from core... I have a feeling it will become the least used wallet... except for maybe the coin management feature, people seem to like that.
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1327 2014-07-08 18:56:25 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: it does, -paytxfee overrides -txconfirmtarget. I think from a UI point of view -txconfirmtarget makes a lot more sense, though.
1328 2014-07-08 18:56:29 <phantomcircuit> especially without a way to specify a maximum fee
1329 2014-07-08 18:57:52 <gavinandresen> No objections from me if you want to implement something better for users (maybe as part of coin control, though, I donât think most users want to tweak transaction fees on a per-transaction basis)
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1331 2014-07-08 18:59:21 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, did you change the behaviour of -paytxfee?
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1333 2014-07-08 18:59:43 <phantomcircuit> i seem to recall it set a minimum and not an absolute value for the fee
1334 2014-07-08 18:59:43 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: no
1335 2014-07-08 19:00:01 <phantomcircuit> oh it still does
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1337 2014-07-08 19:00:22 <gavinandresen> ⦠that is, no, I didnât change its behavior.
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1341 2014-07-08 19:01:40 <sipa> dabura667: maybe
1342 2014-07-08 19:01:52 <sipa> dabura667: but maybe it also means that its development can accelerate
1343 2014-07-08 19:02:01 <sipa> right now it is strongly limited by the core review process
1344 2014-07-08 19:02:08 <dabura667> gavinandresen: (Re: fee estimation) I will try it out later, thanks.
1345 2014-07-08 19:02:19 <dabura667> sipa: true.
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1350 2014-07-08 19:03:15 <dabura667> sipa: splitting off can make it into a decent wallet client that can switch from local blockchain to SPV on a whim etc. Would be interesting.
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1352 2014-07-08 19:04:29 <SynBTC> Looking for a bit of help. I've generated a multi-sig, but I can't seem to sign a transaction out of the p2sh address. It's the right txid, scripthash, and priv key. But the signrawtransaction spits out the same transaction hex everytime (no matter which key is used). Any thoughts or suggestions?
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1354 2014-07-08 19:04:50 <phantomcircuit> er
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1356 2014-07-08 19:05:17 <phantomcircuit> correct me if im wrong but if you have payTxFee set nFeeRet = payTxFee.GetFeePerK();
1357 2014-07-08 19:05:25 <phantomcircuit> that doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense
1358 2014-07-08 19:05:50 <phantomcircuit> is that just a simple way to get the value the user specified?
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1361 2014-07-08 19:08:38 <SynBTC> =/
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1364 2014-07-08 19:10:24 <phantomcircuit> ...
1365 2014-07-08 19:10:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, -paytxfee doesn't work if you specify 0
1366 2014-07-08 19:10:55 <phantomcircuit> but it would work if you specified like 1 satoshi
1367 2014-07-08 19:11:17 <sipa> paytxfee sets the voluntary fee i think
1368 2014-07-08 19:11:29 <sipa> the wallet will despite that never create something it believes won't relay
1369 2014-07-08 19:11:31 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah... but it's special cased on 0
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1371 2014-07-08 19:11:44 <sipa> orly
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1373 2014-07-08 19:13:11 <phantomcircuit> sipa, not sure you got that
1374 2014-07-08 19:13:13 <phantomcircuit> paytxfee=0 is special cased
1375 2014-07-08 19:13:28 <sipa> 21:07:18 < sipa> orly
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1377 2014-07-08 19:13:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah... the default is 0
1378 2014-07-08 19:14:03 <phantomcircuit> so GetMinimumFee assumes that if it's 0 the user didn't specify
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1381 2014-07-08 19:19:45 <SynBTC> Alright, any chance someone can point me in the right direction? Documentation on multi-sign (more than what's on the wiki), etc?
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1451 2014-07-08 20:51:24 <throughnothing> SynBTC: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide ?
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