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5 2014-07-10 00:03:41 <WeCluster> kazcw, thank you -- building 0.9.2.1 solved the problem. now running bitcoind for the first time, is it going to download 60GB of blockchain before becoming functional?
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11 2014-07-10 00:11:59 <userguy243> Luke-Jr - so theoretically there's no way to know for sure? Right now, with 7 tps hard limit set various places, you still have 60 GB...and hardly anyone transfers it to another person, it's quite rare. (to buy things iwth BTC and use them as currency. it happens but it's rare. it's a Pretty Big Deal for smeone to transfer BTC today, they make special arrangments. it's not an off-hand thing)
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13 2014-07-10 00:12:31 <Luke-Jr> userguy243: O.o what? People buy things with bitcoins all the time.
14 2014-07-10 00:13:13 <userguy243> Luke-Jr I mean as compared with charges on credit cards, for example. most people who have btc in their wallet, still are about 50x more likely to charge something to their card.
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16 2014-07-10 00:13:34 <jcorgan> userguy243: those numbers sound made up
17 2014-07-10 00:14:08 <userguy243> jcorgan - how many charges have you had on your credit/debit cards in the past 30 days, versus how many things have you bought with BTC? That's my point.
18 2014-07-10 00:14:24 <userguy243> when you're in a physical store(shp) you can't even spend your btc there.\
19 2014-07-10 00:14:30 <userguy243> shp=shop
20 2014-07-10 00:14:38 <userguy243> i missed hte o
21 2014-07-10 00:15:41 <userguy243> And that's how the blockchain is 60 GB today. And I'm talking YOU, who are here in #bitcoin-dev. How many people won credit cards/debit cards worldwide who have 0 walleters, with a total of 0 btc in them?
22 2014-07-10 00:15:54 <userguy243> won=own
23 2014-07-10 00:16:01 <jcorgan> this is pretty off-topic for -dev
24 2014-07-10 00:16:05 <userguy243> walleters = wallets
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26 2014-07-10 00:16:09 <userguy243> jcorgan point taken
27 2014-07-10 00:16:40 <userguy243> I was just asking how the blockchain could be pruned, for once a billion people use it. it'llget pretty gnarly. luke-jr (and earlier someone else) said that it can't get pruned
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30 2014-07-10 00:21:40 <WeCluster> 2014-07-10 00:13:04 nActualTimespan = 941328 before bounds 2014-07-10 00:13:04 GetNextWorkRequired RETARGET 2014-07-10 00:13:04 nTargetTimespan = 1209600 nActualTimespan = 941328 2014-07-10 00:13:04 Before: 1c2a1115 000000002a111500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 2014-07-10 00:13:04 After: 1c20bca7 0000000020bca74a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a83a
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33 2014-07-10 00:24:45 <userguy243> there are semiformal plans to ease the TPS restrictions too, once there is more adoption. And semiformal plans for more adoption :)
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35 2014-07-10 00:25:34 <WeCluster> bitcoind working as expected in headless build -- seems like mining could now occur on this box. I will be doing development in this area specifically, as well as core protocol improvements. any pointers for where to find some bugs that need fixing and other useful work that I can do while still learning?
36 2014-07-10 00:25:51 postpre has joined
37 2014-07-10 00:26:47 <kazcw> WeCluster: if you could find the commit that breaks windows build and include that in a bug report, it'd help fix it
38 2014-07-10 00:27:23 pierreatwork has joined
39 2014-07-10 00:27:25 <kazcw> WeCluster: do you know git bisect? it's pretty cool, you can do a binary search through commits to find the one that breaks it
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41 2014-07-10 00:28:17 <kazcw> WeCluster: but you should use a release version (like v0.9.2.1) for mining
42 2014-07-10 00:28:26 <kazcw> and wallets for that matter
43 2014-07-10 00:28:43 <WeCluster> understood. will do.
44 2014-07-10 00:28:48 <userguy243> cu guys later
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72 2014-07-10 01:05:11 <btc111> are there any android devlopers here? pls msg me . have a question will pay bounty
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93 2014-07-10 01:32:26 <ttgg> What compiler/IDE is best for working with the bitcoin source on Windows?
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95 2014-07-10 01:34:16 <kazcw> ttgg: mingw. see doc/build-msw.md
96 2014-07-10 01:35:27 <ttgg> Thanks kaz
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107 2014-07-10 01:53:31 <ttgg> "this is a security-critical project where any mistake might cost people lots of money."
108 2014-07-10 01:54:09 <Emcy> sure is
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110 2014-07-10 01:56:07 <ttgg> bitcoin-qt is this still considered like the default wallet? Will it continue to 'basically' function if I compile my own bitcoin source, but I make patches that add functionality? I'm assuming I'd have to also make changes to the wallet code to use my changes from a wallet...
111 2014-07-10 01:56:16 <ttgg> I know that might be a stupid question, but I'm just starting with this
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116 2014-07-10 02:04:11 <Emcy> how can anyone say how it might function if you add your own patches
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133 2014-07-10 02:13:57 <ttgg> This is just my own internal testing and stuff
134 2014-07-10 02:14:14 <ttgg> I'm not considering putting in any pull requests or anything like that until I have a fundamental understanding of the code
135 2014-07-10 02:14:20 <WeCluster> ttgg: we're using mingw with msys and in that case you should follow doc/build-unix.md instead of doc/build-msw.md
136 2014-07-10 02:14:25 <ttgg> I plan on playing with it extensively
137 2014-07-10 02:14:36 <ttgg> Thanks WeCluster
138 2014-07-10 02:14:52 <PRab> ttgg: If you are testing, make sure you use testnet coins instead of real bitcoin in case something goes wrong.
139 2014-07-10 02:14:57 <ttgg> I'm playing with mingw and msys right now and I just started eyeballing the bitcoin.org developer guide
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141 2014-07-10 02:15:30 <WeCluster> ttgg: also note that you will need to add -D_WIN32_WINNT=0x0601 -DWINVER=0x0601 (for Windows 7+) to the Makefiles and probably also -lz (for including libz at link time) to get the source to build under windows if you're using gcc under msys/mingw
142 2014-07-10 02:15:46 <ttgg> thank you WeCluster
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144 2014-07-10 02:16:30 <ttgg> I've been looking around and I can't find any good newbie guides for this stuff, I'm coming to the table here with just a basic understanding of C++, a layman's understanding of the Bitcoin protocol, and the desire to help
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146 2014-07-10 02:16:58 <WeCluster> we've just gone through the process of building the source in this way on Windows 7 -- kazcw helped earlier today with this, we started out using the latest beta version of the bitcoin source but found it would not build. v0.9.2.1 does build, and if you can't get it built we will be glad to help.
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148 2014-07-10 02:17:30 <ttgg> Thanks WeCluster, should I just try to compile and build it as my first mission?
149 2014-07-10 02:17:38 <ttgg> I'm on win7
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151 2014-07-10 02:18:14 <WeCluster> start here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149479.0
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154 2014-07-10 02:19:23 <WeCluster> we were only interested in building a headless installation, which is simpler, but do not look at step #3 and think to yourself "the newer beta source would be more fun"
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157 2014-07-10 02:19:59 <ttgg> "fun"
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159 2014-07-10 02:20:27 <ttgg> Are all of the library links in this thread up to date/functionable still?
160 2014-07-10 02:20:32 <ttgg> I guess I'll find out...
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163 2014-07-10 02:21:26 <WeCluster> you can use any version of boost and any version of openssl ... we used boost 50 and openssl 1.0.1h
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166 2014-07-10 02:22:38 <WeCluster> building the source as a headless bitcoind installation made it simpler. no need for Berkeley DB, and none of the qt libs are required. to build headless you specify --disable-wallet
167 2014-07-10 02:23:03 <ttgg> Should I go headless my first go? I kind of want to play with the whole enchilada
168 2014-07-10 02:23:19 <WeCluster> also --disable-upnp-default
169 2014-07-10 02:23:35 <ttgg> Also, why hasn't someone made a unified library installer for this?
170 2014-07-10 02:23:37 attilah has joined
171 2014-07-10 02:23:49 <ttgg> Step #2 is entirely too long imo
172 2014-07-10 02:23:54 TheSeven has joined
173 2014-07-10 02:23:58 <ttgg> If people are using this as a reference
174 2014-07-10 02:24:38 <WeCluster> we were unable to get boost 55 to build under mingw/msys
175 2014-07-10 02:24:50 <ttgg> If no one is doing it, I'm going to make a single download and installer for all of these, to simplify step 2
176 2014-07-10 02:28:41 <WeCluster> the most difficult part of getting it built under mingw/msys on win7 was ensuring the build environment/toolchain and paths required were present. when you make your first build attempt, let us know.
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178 2014-07-10 02:29:57 <ttgg> I'll be doing it within the hour
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182 2014-07-10 02:32:50 <ttgg> within the mingw and msys shell "cd /c/deps/"
183 2014-07-10 02:33:07 <ttgg> I don't quite understand, is this a directory I need or is it some pseudo directory in the shell?
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185 2014-07-10 02:36:55 <ttgg> I feel like an idiot because I'm getting stuck at things that should be simple
186 2014-07-10 02:37:14 <WeCluster> your entire hard drive is available to you as /c (in case you're new to msys) and deps is the name of the directory those instructions recommend for unpacking the dependencies like boost
187 2014-07-10 02:37:39 <ttgg> Woo!
188 2014-07-10 02:37:44 <ttgg> Thanks, that's the explanation I needed
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190 2014-07-10 02:40:19 <WeCluster> ttgg: FWIW, we did not follow the instructions you're attempting to follow... never issued any command from command prompt, instead we did everything within msys
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192 2014-07-10 02:41:21 <ttgg> ah
193 2014-07-10 02:41:31 <ttgg> Well fwiw, it's working so far
194 2014-07-10 02:41:36 <ttgg> :)
195 2014-07-10 02:42:45 <ttgg> making stuff right now in step 2
196 2014-07-10 02:42:47 <ttgg> no hangups yet
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198 2014-07-10 02:43:24 <ttgg> Did Satoshi use all these libraries in the original? I'm sure we obfuscated the hell out of the code by now... Maybe he used boost?
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201 2014-07-10 02:49:12 <sipa> jcorgan: yes
202 2014-07-10 02:49:44 <sipa> jcorgan: after calling the init function, and before calling the free function, you can call multiple functions in parallel
203 2014-07-10 02:51:27 <jcorgan> thanks. it looked that way from the calling sequence but i wasn't sure
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214 2014-07-10 02:57:44 <sipa> ttgg: which libraries in particular?
215 2014-07-10 02:57:52 <sipa> he certainly used wx, bdb, openssl
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217 2014-07-10 02:58:07 <sipa> boost i don't remember
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220 2014-07-10 02:59:43 <ttgg> I'm going through a library list for 0.9.2.1 compile guide for Win7
221 2014-07-10 03:00:10 <sipa> not at a computer now
222 2014-07-10 03:00:31 <sipa> qt was only introduced in 0.5
223 2014-07-10 03:00:46 <sipa> qrencode probably too
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225 2014-07-10 03:01:09 <sipa> you canfetch an early version from git and look :)
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235 2014-07-10 03:16:01 <ttgg> bootstrap.bat mingw
236 2014-07-10 03:16:06 <ttgg> I got stuck here
237 2014-07-10 03:16:17 <ttgg> is the mingw supposed to be my mingw shell path?
238 2014-07-10 03:16:31 <ttgg> when trying to configure/install boost
239 2014-07-10 03:17:21 <WeCluster> which version of boost have you selected?
240 2014-07-10 03:17:29 <ttgg> 1_55_0
241 2014-07-10 03:19:37 <ttgg> vcvars32.bat is not recognized
242 2014-07-10 03:19:49 <ttgg> i get a string of errors like that when trying to do bootstrap.bat mingw
243 2014-07-10 03:20:10 aburan28 has joined
244 2014-07-10 03:20:15 <WeCluster> tried to build 1_55_0 under mingw/msys but failed and gave up
245 2014-07-10 03:21:01 <ttgg> you said you used boost 1_50_0?
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254 2014-07-10 03:25:53 <WeCluster> you should probably be using bootstrap.sh rather than bootstrap.bat
255 2014-07-10 03:26:18 <ttgg> can i run the .sh in windows?
256 2014-07-10 03:26:27 <WeCluster> no, run it in msys
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258 2014-07-10 03:27:29 <WeCluster> one of the reasons we did not follow, precisely, those instructions that you're trying to follow was that we had no intention of using msvc -- wanted to build using gcc toolchain instead.
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262 2014-07-10 03:28:32 <ttgg> and... broken
263 2014-07-10 03:28:32 <ttgg> execunix.c:20:26: fatal error: sys/resource.h: No such file or directory
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265 2014-07-10 03:28:58 <WeCluster> because your CPATH is not set properly
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270 2014-07-10 03:31:07 <WeCluster> we added the following to /etc/profile to set CPATH, BOOST_ROOT, and OPENSSL_CONF in the shell:
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272 2014-07-10 03:31:31 <WeCluster> OPENSSL_CONF="/c/MinGW/msys/1.0/local/ssl/openssl.cnf" CPATH="/c/MinGW/include" BOOST_ROOT="/c/MinGW/msys/1.0/dev/boost_1_50_0" export OPENSSL_CONF CPATH BOOST_ROOT
273 2014-07-10 03:31:52 <ttgg> the msys /etc/profile ?
274 2014-07-10 03:32:01 <WeCluster> yes
275 2014-07-10 03:32:15 <WeCluster> after you modify it, use "source /etc/profile" to reset your current environment in your shell
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277 2014-07-10 03:33:47 <ttgg> same error :\
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279 2014-07-10 03:34:33 <ttgg> do the line breaks matter for the code you posted?
280 2014-07-10 03:35:02 <WeCluster> yes
281 2014-07-10 03:35:34 <WeCluster> but there's another include directory under msys rather than MinGW ... what is the name of the file your build is searching for again? (my IRC history got cleared)
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283 2014-07-10 03:35:54 <ttgg> execunix.c:20:26: fatal error: sys/resource.h: No such file or directory
284 2014-07-10 03:35:57 <ttgg> sys/resource.h
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288 2014-07-10 03:37:46 <WeCluster> yes, so, the correct CPATH for this is /c/MinGW/msys/1.0/include
289 2014-07-10 03:38:17 <WeCluster> we simply switched back and forth to get the dependencies to build
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291 2014-07-10 03:38:43 <WeCluster> it wasn't pretty, but it worked
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293 2014-07-10 03:41:08 <WeCluster> seems like you should be able to use a CPATH that references both the msys and mingw include directories ... but not being 100% sure that's a valid thing to do, we didn't do it.
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296 2014-07-10 03:41:28 <ttgg> Can I have multiple CPATH's and live?
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298 2014-07-10 03:42:35 <WeCluster> you can have multiple paths in the CPATH, separated by either : or ;
299 2014-07-10 03:43:06 <WeCluster> but not multiple CPATH lines, or the last one will be the only CPATH
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302 2014-07-10 03:44:17 <WeCluster> since mingw/msys is a combination of Windows environment and msys environment variables, it isn't clear whether the separator character for a compound CPATH path would be : or ;
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314 2014-07-10 03:53:09 <earlz> Was getwork removed from master?
315 2014-07-10 03:58:32 <ttgg> CPATH="/c/MinGW/include;/c/MinGW/msys/1.0/include"
316 2014-07-10 03:58:35 <ttgg> tried, didn't help
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318 2014-07-10 03:59:52 <earlz> ugh. I can't get master to work at all
319 2014-07-10 03:59:59 <earlz> I guess go to 9.2.1
320 2014-07-10 04:00:48 flammit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
321 2014-07-10 04:00:48 DigiByteDev has joined
322 2014-07-10 04:01:37 <WeCluster> try CPATH="/c/MinGW/msys/1.0/include"
323 2014-07-10 04:02:01 <ttgg> figured it out
324 2014-07-10 04:02:04 <ttgg> missing an option
325 2014-07-10 04:02:05 <WeCluster> you can see that resource.h is present here: /c/MinGW/msys/1.0/include/sys/
326 2014-07-10 04:02:06 dims_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
327 2014-07-10 04:02:28 <ttgg> had to do bootstrap.sh --with-toolset=mingw
328 2014-07-10 04:02:31 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
329 2014-07-10 04:02:39 <ttgg> found answer on stackoverflow
330 2014-07-10 04:02:40 sabfer has joined
331 2014-07-10 04:03:44 <WeCluster> good. when you get to the ./configure step for building bitcoin src, here's the command we used: CPPFLAGS="-I/dev/boost_1_50_0 \ -I/dev/openssl-1.0.1h/include" \ LDFLAGS="-L/dev/boost_1_50_0/stage/lib \ -L/dev/openssl-1.0.1h" \ ./configure \ --disable-wallet \ --disable-upnp-default \ --with-boost-libdir=/dev/boost_1_50_0/stage/lib \ --with-boost-system=mgw48-mt-1_50 \ --with-boost-filesystem=mgw48-mt-1_50 \ --with-boost-progr
332 2014-07-10 04:03:48 Squidicc has joined
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334 2014-07-10 04:04:26 <WeCluster> similar to the one shown here in step #3: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149479.0
335 2014-07-10 04:04:57 Squidicc has joined
336 2014-07-10 04:05:07 <sabfer> hi! has anyone else seen this error while running the deploy script for OS X? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/07dd73647a3e2d484ddf
337 2014-07-10 04:05:13 <WeCluster> the configure script does test-compilations using boost, so it turned out to be very important that the configure script get those paths right.
338 2014-07-10 04:05:27 djcoin_ has joined
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340 2014-07-10 04:06:55 dgenr8 has joined
341 2014-07-10 04:06:57 <sabfer> I found something similar on the logs, but it referred to another library http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/09/15
342 2014-07-10 04:07:46 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
343 2014-07-10 04:08:27 <ttgg> I had to jerry-rig the b2 build of boost
344 2014-07-10 04:08:35 <ttgg> missing a .jam file but I found a way to force it
345 2014-07-10 04:09:02 <WeCluster> are you taking detailed notes so you can fix all of this and make a single build/installer program?
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349 2014-07-10 04:09:15 <ttgg> Yes, well enough WeCluster
350 2014-07-10 04:09:22 <ttgg> I'll be making the all-in-one this weekend probably
351 2014-07-10 04:09:39 <ttgg> And I'm also working on a bitcoin source map when I learn the bitcoin source code well enough
352 2014-07-10 04:09:55 <ttgg> I want to make this as easy for a newbie as possible
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358 2014-07-10 04:17:24 <WeCluster> understood. but newbies download and install binaries, not source code. there isn't as much room for introducing ad hoc changes to bitcoin as there might be in, say, the Linux Kernel, because no bitcoind is an island.
359 2014-07-10 04:20:29 <ttgg> This is for newbies who want to work with the code but don't know their ass from a hot rock
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381 2014-07-10 04:46:11 <michagogo> WeCluster, ttgg: thanks for working on getting windows builds working
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383 2014-07-10 04:46:35 <michagogo> Right now windows release binaries are built with mingw on linux
384 2014-07-10 04:46:35 <WeCluster> michagogo: thanks for the thanks!
385 2014-07-10 04:47:01 <michagogo> Just one tip: look at build-unix.md's history, I think improvements were made to it
386 2014-07-10 04:47:16 <michagogo> And I don't think build-msw got the same treatment
387 2014-07-10 04:48:04 <michagogo> (Note that I'm unfamiliar with both docs, so I can't specifically endorse or [the opposite, I just woke up] them)
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407 2014-07-10 05:10:23 <WeCluster> ttgg: have you built everything successfully yet? did boost 1_55_0 work for you?
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414 2014-07-10 05:18:40 <wumpus> michagogo: indeed, I'm even going to remove the build_msw.md if no one is going to pick it up and maintain it
415 2014-07-10 05:19:29 <michagogo> wumpus: what's in that file, anyway?
416 2014-07-10 05:19:48 <michagogo> (I'm on my phone atm, or I'd just go and look at it)
417 2014-07-10 05:20:06 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, instructions which probably dont work for building the windows binaries on linux
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419 2014-07-10 05:20:17 <michagogo> Heh
420 2014-07-10 05:20:18 <wumpus> michagogo: windows build instructions from eh, three versions ago or so?
421 2014-07-10 05:20:30 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: no it's instruction for building windows binaries on windows
422 2014-07-10 05:20:37 <michagogo> Wait, three versions ago?
423 2014-07-10 05:20:44 <michagogo> 0.9.0?
424 2014-07-10 05:20:49 <michagogo> That doesn't sound right
425 2014-07-10 05:20:52 <wumpus> michagogo: more like three major versions lol
426 2014-07-10 05:21:02 <michagogo> Ah.
427 2014-07-10 05:21:06 <michagogo> So, 0.6?
428 2014-07-10 05:21:06 <wumpus> it's never updated, no one cares about it, it should go
429 2014-07-10 05:21:24 <michagogo> Well, apparently a couple people do!
430 2014-07-10 05:21:25 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, oh really?
431 2014-07-10 05:21:31 <phantomcircuit> iirc that never worked
432 2014-07-10 05:21:34 <phantomcircuit> like ever
433 2014-07-10 05:21:42 <wumpus> well there are a few people that build on windows
434 2014-07-10 05:21:52 <wumpus> but they keep their tactics veeery secret :p
435 2014-07-10 05:22:19 <wumpus> they wouldn't contribute anything back to git or something like that
436 2014-07-10 05:22:46 * michagogo is not one of those people
437 2014-07-10 05:22:55 <wumpus> anyhow, the gitian build works best for building windows executables
438 2014-07-10 05:23:14 <michagogo> I think the one time I ran experimental code on Windows I gbuilt it
439 2014-07-10 05:24:14 stonecoldpat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
440 2014-07-10 05:24:16 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
441 2014-07-10 05:24:49 <wumpus> this issue is now more than a year old, and the problem existed before that, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1401
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446 2014-07-10 05:28:11 <WeCluster> we are curious about building with visual studio 2013 on Windows ... but presume that will be such a big undertaking that we started with mingw/msys building with gcc toolchain instead, so we didn't use build-msw.md
447 2014-07-10 05:28:27 aburan28 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
448 2014-07-10 05:28:37 <wumpus> build-msw has only msys/mingw build steps
449 2014-07-10 05:28:54 <WeCluster> following the build-linux instructions under msys/mingw worked well enough. it was decipherable.
450 2014-07-10 05:29:01 OneMiner has joined
451 2014-07-10 05:29:17 <WeCluster> build-msw appears to depend on msvc
452 2014-07-10 05:29:22 <wumpus> no, it does not
453 2014-07-10 05:29:53 <wumpus> not that it matters, it's hopelessly outdated
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455 2014-07-10 05:30:33 <wumpus> see, this mentions msys about a zillion times, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.md
456 2014-07-10 05:30:38 <WeCluster> hmm... just looked at it again a couple hours ago. the instructions refer to at least one .bat file which can only use msvc
457 2014-07-10 05:31:48 <wumpus> anyhow, if you succeed in doing this it would be great if you updated the build-msw.md with the new information
458 2014-07-10 05:32:32 <wumpus> they are meant to be msys build instructions, if something about msvc sneaked into there that's possible but wrong
459 2014-07-10 05:33:41 <WeCluster> you're right, it's all MSYS-based without msvc ... was thinking about these instructions instead: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149479.0
460 2014-07-10 05:34:24 <WeCluster> build-msw.md references build-unix.md so it's not clear why build-msw.md even exists any longer. vote to remove it.
461 2014-07-10 05:35:05 <wumpus> oh the forum instructions... right, I don't know about those at all, they are a brave attempt at bulding with msvc, but it was never contributed back to git
462 2014-07-10 05:35:13 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
463 2014-07-10 05:35:30 <wumpus> it exists to provide easy steps for building the dependencies on windows
464 2014-07-10 05:35:33 <WeCluster> this seems to be the only thing of potential importance: change 'MAKE' env. variable from 'C:\MinGW32\bin\mingw32-make.exe' to '/c/MinGW32/bin/mingw32-make.exe'
465 2014-07-10 05:35:42 <wumpus> which is *not* the same as on linux
466 2014-07-10 05:35:58 <wumpus> and on linux you can usually install distro packages
467 2014-07-10 05:35:59 <WeCluster> but there's no need to build from the windows command prompt, when msys shell works so much better anyway.
468 2014-07-10 05:36:27 <wumpus> ... but it mentions only the msys shell
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472 2014-07-10 05:37:03 <WeCluster> we built the source just fine without using mingw32-make.exe
473 2014-07-10 05:37:10 <WeCluster> on mingw/msys
474 2014-07-10 05:37:14 <wumpus> that's fine, update the document if you can
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477 2014-07-10 05:37:47 <wumpus> the build instructions are not supposed to be the only, holy way to do things, there are alway alternative ways and they may work better...
478 2014-07-10 05:37:56 <WeCluster> ttgg is working on a revision and a single build script, we'll see what we can come up with together
479 2014-07-10 05:38:03 Knuk_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
480 2014-07-10 05:38:36 <wumpus> ok great
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482 2014-07-10 05:41:22 <WeCluster> building the dependencies on windows by attempting to follow windows build instructions instead of using msys shell seems to be voodoo art that depends on random chance and sunspots or something, whereas following the straight-forward instructions for building under unix seemed to make sense at each step.
483 2014-07-10 05:41:48 <wumpus> then put those in the document
484 2014-07-10 05:41:59 <WeCluster> if people are interested in building using mingw WITHOUT msys then that would be another matter and would probably justify keeping a separate build-msw.md
485 2014-07-10 05:42:21 <wumpus> no, people are interested in having one build guide for windows that works :)
486 2014-07-10 05:42:28 <wumpus> if that's mingw with msys that's great
487 2014-07-10 05:43:00 dugo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
488 2014-07-10 05:43:20 <wumpus> ... and as I said two times already, build-msw.md references MSYS in every step, why do you think it is about building without MSYS?
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490 2014-07-10 05:43:56 <wumpus> please at least read a document before criticizing it
491 2014-07-10 05:44:12 <WeCluster> we will be attempting to build with visual studio 2013 next, and may recommend modifications to build-unix that incorporate all of the mingw/msys knowledge and steps, while revisions to build-msw would become a how-to for visual c++ and/or mingw/win32
492 2014-07-10 05:44:41 <wumpus> modifications for windows building belong in build-msw.md, not not in build-unix.md
493 2014-07-10 05:44:46 <wumpus> build-unix is about unix only
494 2014-07-10 05:45:16 <WeCluster> agreed, the criticism of build-msw was a criticism of the forum instructions for building the dependencies with .bat files and command prompt environment settings. misplaced blame.
495 2014-07-10 05:45:50 <WeCluster> but the build-msw steps that reference msw (which is, as you noted, all of the steps) weren't as useful as the build-unix instructions during our build effort.
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497 2014-07-10 05:46:22 <wumpus> sigh, build-msw stands for Build MS Windows... it does not refer to msvc at all
498 2014-07-10 05:46:26 <WeCluster> (oops, meant to write "msys" not "msw" above)
499 2014-07-10 05:46:35 <wumpus> it is a guide for building on windows by any means necessary
500 2014-07-10 05:46:40 <wumpus> I don' t even care what compiler is used
501 2014-07-10 05:46:57 <wumpus> build-unix however is about building on unix and should stay about building on unix
502 2014-07-10 05:46:59 <WeCluster> building under msys isn't exactly building under windows.
503 2014-07-10 05:47:12 <wumpus> strictly it is - msys runs on windows
504 2014-07-10 05:48:20 <WeCluster> if you like it the way it is, that's okay. what we'd like to see is build-msw giving steps for msvc and mingw without msys, and for the unix build instructions to incorporate those msys steps.
505 2014-07-10 05:48:27 <wumpus> I'd agree with you if you used cygwin or another full unix wrapper on windows, but msys is only a very thin shell and not a unix-on-windows simulator
506 2014-07-10 05:48:59 <WeCluster> this would be consistent with how boost gives the same instructions: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_55_0/more/getting_started/windows.html
507 2014-07-10 05:49:09 <WeCluster> A note to Cygwin and MinGW users If you plan to use your tools from the Windows command prompt, you're in the right place. If you plan to build from the Cygwin bash shell, you're actually running on a POSIX platform and should follow the instructions for getting started on Unix variants. Other command shells, such as MinGW's MSYS, are not supportedâthey may or may not work.
508 2014-07-10 05:49:39 <wumpus> I do like it seperated per platform
509 2014-07-10 05:50:08 <WeCluster> if build-msw is strictly "from the command prompt" or "from visual studio" that would make more sense
510 2014-07-10 05:50:25 <wumpus> well visual studio building is not something we can recommend
511 2014-07-10 05:50:27 <WeCluster> MSYS steps are nearly identical to building under Unix/Linux
512 2014-07-10 05:50:44 <wumpus> and just using the command prompt is needless masochism, msys was designed to make this easier
513 2014-07-10 05:51:02 <WeCluster> haha we could rename build-msw build-masochism
514 2014-07-10 05:51:05 <wumpus> I don't care about ideological purity here it should just work
515 2014-07-10 05:51:15 <WeCluster> what about build-eclipse ?
516 2014-07-10 05:51:36 <WeCluster> build-msw could include both visual studio 2013 and eclipse
517 2014-07-10 05:51:44 <wumpus> it could
518 2014-07-10 05:52:15 <wumpus> but I prefer one solution that works and is maintained to two that don't work or are out of date in one version :)
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521 2014-07-10 05:52:44 <wumpus> so instead of build-*every ide or variant*.md we just have one per platform
522 2014-07-10 05:54:16 <wumpus> whether that uses msvc, mingw, msys, eclipse, code::blocks, or turbo C 2.0 I don't mind
523 2014-07-10 05:55:25 <wumpus> and the official builds will continue to be done using gitian
524 2014-07-10 05:57:05 <wumpus> which uses mingw, as that's the only way to do deterministic cross-builds from linux
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533 2014-07-10 06:18:16 <wumpus> Looking for code review of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4400 ; it's just a trivial code move, but as it affects the random number generation I'd like some people to check just for sure
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561 2014-07-10 06:59:59 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: do you have any scripts to test longpolling? I'd like to work on #2834 to not use boost primitives directly but use our own threading ones - but it'd be nice to have something to test the functionality with
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703 2014-07-10 09:34:38 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: anyhow see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4503
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739 2014-07-10 10:08:16 <iddo> sipa: gmaxwell: when possible please comment on BIP32 wallet with deniable encryption: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.msg7766059#msg7766059
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742 2014-07-10 10:09:00 <iddo> maybe this issue is somewhat controversial, i'm not sure
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974 2014-07-10 13:29:21 <sipa> wumpus: seems gmaxwell also had a corruption detected with a message of misisng undo data
975 2014-07-10 13:29:26 <sipa> with headersfirst
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982 2014-07-10 13:32:21 <wumpus> sipa: ok good to know it's not just me :)
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1034 2014-07-10 14:06:10 <gmaxwell> wumpus: the corruption you saw with headers first isn't just you, I've reproduced itâ and still had it / had it again after a reindex.
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1038 2014-07-10 14:07:21 <wumpus> reindex isn't even supposed to work, according to the pull message, so I didn't try it
1039 2014-07-10 14:08:04 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it worked. :) well, other than leaving it in the unhappy state. My undo data was missing 3 blocks back, so I brought it up again by just setting checkblocks=1 for now.
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1084 2014-07-10 14:37:56 <gmaxwell> hearn: @#$! please read BIP01
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1086 2014-07-10 14:38:26 <gmaxwell> :)
1087 2014-07-10 14:38:35 <hearn> the readme says to first propose the document to the mailing list and email you afterwards
1088 2014-07-10 14:38:43 <hearn> i picked a number so i could make a pull request. happy to change it later
1089 2014-07-10 14:39:29 <gmaxwell> You should propose the document without a number. I've previously recomended calling pre-numbered documents like draft-hearn-getutxos.
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1093 2014-07-10 14:41:32 <hearn> are we at risk of running out of numbers or something? :)
1094 2014-07-10 14:41:50 <gmaxwell> hearn: creates confusion about where in process things are.
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1096 2014-07-10 14:42:42 <gmaxwell> e.g. if someone responds to your proposal with some fantastic argument that convinces you that its a bad approach and you withdraw it, we don't want it to be confused as something that was done and such later.
1097 2014-07-10 14:43:11 <hearn> i thought that's what the status field is for. a number is just a handle. if the handle of a document changes once it's reached a certain plcae, i'd think that'd be even more confusing. at any rate, i guess that situation can be handled by just closing the pull request
1098 2014-07-10 14:43:24 <gmaxwell> please don't be combative about this.
1099 2014-07-10 14:44:00 <hearn> so what should i do? repush with a different file name and the patch to readme taken out or something?
1100 2014-07-10 14:44:27 <gmaxwell> hearn: you can leave the filename, just pull the number out of the document?
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1102 2014-07-10 14:46:48 <gmaxwell> hearn: thank you so much for accommodating. :)
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1105 2014-07-10 14:47:21 <hearn> ok, i pushed a new commit and edited the title of the pull request
1106 2014-07-10 14:47:42 <hearn> maybe all bips should have names instead of numbers. i tend to get them mixed up anyway.
1107 2014-07-10 14:48:19 <sipa> hearn: wrt partially verifying the result if you have the outputs spending them: i can just reply "op_true" as scriptSig, and you'll always think that i'm right
1108 2014-07-10 14:48:31 <gmaxwell> hearn: what, you don't want to call them by their sha256? :P
1109 2014-07-10 14:49:13 <sipa> if you restrict to standard scripts, that's not an issue
1110 2014-07-10 14:49:27 <hearn> you mean OP_TRUE as scriptPubKey, right?
1111 2014-07-10 14:49:31 <sipa> no
1112 2014-07-10 14:49:34 <sipa> eh
1113 2014-07-10 14:49:35 <sipa> yes!
1114 2014-07-10 14:50:03 <hearn> right. you do indeed need to ensure that the signature in your scriptSig is actually verified
1115 2014-07-10 14:50:26 <sipa> p2sh solves this too
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1117 2014-07-10 14:51:00 <hearn> how? OP_TRUE would still work. you'd need to know you were expecting a P2SH output and then you can as well check for any other scriptPubKey form
1118 2014-07-10 14:51:13 <sipa> you're right
1119 2014-07-10 14:51:52 <hearn> the important thing is that CHECKSIG* is run at some point, i think
1120 2014-07-10 14:52:08 <hearn> or rather that the result of the script depends on the output of CHECKSIG
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1122 2014-07-10 14:52:23 <hearn> probably restricting to standard forms is indeed the simplest way to obtain that
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1124 2014-07-10 14:53:11 <gmaxwell> heh: "pingtime" : 310.23559300,
1125 2014-07-10 14:53:23 <gmaxwell> (onion peer on a node running in valgrind)
1126 2014-07-10 14:57:59 <hearn> sipa: what do you think about an optional network authentication protocol. each node generates a long term identity key at startup and saves it to disk. each CNode gets a new uint256 field that contains a running hash of all message bytes written to that peer (or maybe a hash of all checksums). then a new message is added that lets you request a signature of that hash under the identity key. i guess some throttling or prioritisation
1127 2014-07-10 14:57:59 <hearn> can be used to ensure you can't flood out more important work with signing requests (or require a signature to be submitted to get one, i.e. equalise work).
1128 2014-07-10 14:58:39 <hearn> sipa: so should have a very simple implementation. then someone can run a new kind of seed that provides the identity keys as well, a la tor directory authorities
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1130 2014-07-10 14:59:19 <gmaxwell> hm? why would there be signing on the fly? we already use sha256 on every message we sendâ so just replace with HMAC and do key agrrement on connect?
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1135 2014-07-10 15:00:56 <sipa> have a ec host key, use ecdh to derive a session key at startup, and then use the session key hmac key instead of sha256 for the checksum
1136 2014-07-10 15:03:10 <hearn> right. i guess that's more efficient. most bitcoin implementations understand hashing and signing but not ecdh, on the other hand. i guess it's not very hard to implement yourself though
1137 2014-07-10 15:03:28 <sipa> they already have secp256k1 ec :)
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1139 2014-07-10 15:05:25 <gmaxwell> Also lets you encrypt for basically free.
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1143 2014-07-10 15:06:21 <gmaxwell> (one thing we don't have is a sequence number though, which means the auth can replay within a connection unless one is added)
1144 2014-07-10 15:06:31 <hearn> maybe. you can say just use AES, but then whether AES-GCM is best or ChaCha or whatever depends on hardware capabilities at either end, so then you think "no problem we'll just add a super simple negotiation protocol, and then suddenly you're reinventing TLS
1145 2014-07-10 15:06:38 <sipa> when we redefine the checksum, we can easily add a sequence number
1146 2014-07-10 15:06:44 <sipa> before hashing
1147 2014-07-10 15:06:50 <hearn> or you can just say everyone uses AES-GCM even if it's not optimal. it's probably no big deal.
1148 2014-07-10 15:07:05 <gmaxwell> hearn: It takes a lot more than that to reinvent TLS.. and indeed 'not being optimal' isn't a big deal.
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1151 2014-07-10 15:08:17 <hearn> chrome now negotiates ChaCha20 with google.com i think, because it's really hard to do AES-GCM well if you don't have hardware support, and mobile platforms typically don't
1152 2014-07-10 15:09:18 <hearn> on the other hand AESNI makes AES super super fast on intel platforms. so ..... hmm
1153 2014-07-10 15:09:43 <hearn> anyway, seems like a digestable sort of protocol upgrade
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1155 2014-07-10 15:10:46 <gmaxwell> the performance on clients is not super interesting for our protocol I think (if we're sending enough data to mobile devices where that matterâ we have other problem)... on severs, OTOH, its a bit more of a concern.
1156 2014-07-10 15:11:19 <hearn> well, AArch64 has AES instructions too. 64 bit mobiles are coming. so probably just standardising on AES-GCM would be the best
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1163 2014-07-10 15:15:50 <t7> do we trust modern crypto random generator instruction ?
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1165 2014-07-10 15:16:46 <hearn> AESNI is beyond question because its workings are transparent. the hardware RNGs should have other entropy mixed in with them at the software level, but can still be used, sure, no problem
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1167 2014-07-10 15:17:42 <hearn> though note that encrypting the wire protocol is not a silver bullet against nation-state adversaries anyway
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1171 2014-07-10 15:17:50 <hearn> most of the data flowing along those links is public
1172 2014-07-10 15:18:42 <hearn> in particular if you want to know where a tx started, and are monitoring lots of wires, you can probably just connect to a peer so you get a flow of unencrypted transactions and then exploit the predictable timings involved to figure out which encrypted packets were the same tx
1173 2014-07-10 15:18:53 <hearn> and eventually work backwards to the origin IP address. at least some of the time.
1174 2014-07-10 15:19:14 <hearn> however it's certainly a lot harder and many things can go wrong with such an attack, so, it'd still be cool to do it
1175 2014-07-10 15:20:22 <wumpus> that's the same problem tor has, and low-latency P2P in general, ideally bitcoin would have a high-latency relaying protocol as well
1176 2014-07-10 15:20:43 <gmaxwell> Yep, and it should be not-substantially harder. It should stilll probably be regarded as non-encrypted even though it technically is.
1177 2014-07-10 15:20:55 <gmaxwell> er I mean it shouldn't be substantially harder to implement.
1178 2014-07-10 15:21:09 <gmaxwell> So the fact that the benefits are not huge isn't a reason not to do it.
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1180 2014-07-10 15:21:36 <hearn> wumpus: yes, it would often make sense to use that when bip 70 is in effect and the recipient already saw the tx anyway
1181 2014-07-10 15:22:35 <hearn> alternatively noise txns can be introduced. introduce a 500 msec ticker and on each tick, send either a queued tx or an ignored "noise" message that's just padded to the right size
1182 2014-07-10 15:22:37 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I don't think there is a reason not to do it
1183 2014-07-10 15:22:40 <hearn> assuming the other peer is ok with it
1184 2014-07-10 15:23:15 <wumpus> hearn: yes, I believe tor experimented with that too
1185 2014-07-10 15:23:22 <wumpus> be careful not to reimplement an onion network :p
1186 2014-07-10 15:23:26 <hearn> their bandwidth requirements are much larger than ours
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1189 2014-07-10 15:23:54 <hearn> yeah. i mean, another interesting approach would be to leave p2p alone, and then run a parallel tor network reusing their code :)
1190 2014-07-10 15:24:00 <hearn> i did think about that. but their code isn't really librarified
1191 2014-07-10 15:24:07 <gmaxwell> hearn: a high latency transaction transport would be pretty useful... Seth schoen posted to the tor lists recently asking if anyone would use a high latency message function in tor and I jumped right on it saying we would.
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1193 2014-07-10 15:24:39 <hearn> plus being able to ban IP's is kinda useful for the worst case DoS offenders
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1196 2014-07-10 15:25:04 <hearn> plus tor is huge
1197 2014-07-10 15:26:04 <wumpus> tor is huge, which is good for anoything involving privacy, bitcoin is just a small part of what is using it
1198 2014-07-10 15:26:21 <hearn> i meant the codebase is huge, actually :)
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1200 2014-07-10 15:26:45 <hearn> that is, bundling it with Core doesn't necessarily make sense, and if it's not bundled, not many people use it
1201 2014-07-10 15:26:46 <gmaxwell> Tor developers are quite happy to have us make more use of tor, even if it increases the load on the network noticeably.
1202 2014-07-10 15:26:59 <wumpus> that's good to hear gmaxwell
1203 2014-07-10 15:27:04 <hearn> yes, i would love to enable tor in bitcoinj by default. we have a few bugfixes that are needed first, and then the question is "just" one of performance
1204 2014-07-10 15:27:21 <hearn> oh and of course we need to actually ship the version with the bundled tor client :)
1205 2014-07-10 15:27:37 <hearn> doesn't do any good just sitting on git master ...
1206 2014-07-10 15:27:38 <gmaxwell> well we also do need to create some anti-dos mechenisms for anonymous peers.
1207 2014-07-10 15:27:42 <wumpus> yes, a bitcoin-tor bundle has been on my long list of things to do for quite some time
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1210 2014-07-10 15:28:40 <wumpus> kind of like an hidden-service-node-in-a-box
1211 2014-07-10 15:28:49 <dhill> does bitcoinj support setting a socks5 proxy?
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1213 2014-07-10 15:29:03 <hearn> yes. but actually bitcoinj has a pure java tor client bundled inside it already now
1214 2014-07-10 15:29:14 <hearn> making a wallet connect via tor is a one-line code change to that wallet app
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1216 2014-07-10 15:29:26 <hearn> literally you call the "useTor()" method. however, it does slow down startup somewhat.
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1218 2014-07-10 15:29:59 <hearn> also there are edge case bugs because the library is new and not that mature. e.g. it doesn't like it if your clock is badly wrong.
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1220 2014-07-10 15:30:31 <gmaxwell> hearn: doesn't bitcoinj reject the chain if your time is way out of wack?
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1222 2014-07-10 15:30:48 <sipa> i think he just said that
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1226 2014-07-10 15:30:56 <hearn> it won't even get to that point. Orchid never starts up, it gets into an infinite loop downloading consensus documents and then thinking the stored consensus is too old
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1228 2014-07-10 15:31:08 <hearn> so you never reach the p2p network
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1232 2014-07-10 15:31:53 <hearn> i'm sure the C tor implementation has some kind of check or fix for that case, but orchid is totally independent
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1236 2014-07-10 15:32:40 <hearn> it's probably usable as an optional/experimental/opt in thing at the moment, though there's at least one or two lock inversions lurking in there as well
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1302 2014-07-10 16:26:15 <earlz> So, making it so that safemode prevents mining is retarded
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1304 2014-07-10 16:27:29 <earlz> If you know the IP of a mining pool and somewhere around 2-5% network hashing power, you can cause a node to enter safemode, stopping mining
1305 2014-07-10 16:28:17 <earlz> 2-5% of hashing power for around 800 minutes*
1306 2014-07-10 16:29:15 <earlz> if you can connect to most of the network's mining pools, you can effectively pause the entire network
1307 2014-07-10 16:29:31 <earlz> Because then your 2-5% hashing power is enough to keep nodes in safemode indefinitely
1308 2014-07-10 16:29:35 <gmaxwell> earlz: Why do you believe you can force a node into safemode with 2-5% networking hashpower?
1309 2014-07-10 16:29:44 <earlz> fork checking code
1310 2014-07-10 16:30:34 <gmaxwell> Be more specfific. Why would a shorter chain trigger safemode?
1311 2014-07-10 16:31:24 <earlz> if an invalid fork of 7 blocks (coinbase wise, not difficulty wise) is made within 72 blocks of the main network, the invalid fork code is triggered, followed by the valid fork (even though it's not really) checking code
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1313 2014-07-10 16:32:00 <earlz> it appears to only check coinbase height as well
1314 2014-07-10 16:32:12 <earlz> er, chain height, not overall difficulty
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1318 2014-07-10 16:34:45 <gmaxwell> well okay, thats daft but it doesn't yield your attack I believe. The limitation that it must be within 72 blocks means the difficulty cannot be substantially lower than the tip, or the headers would be instantly rejected by the stateless checkes.
1319 2014-07-10 16:35:18 <earlz> I can give more details later, but if you checkout this commit https://github.com/Earlz/bitcoin/commit/29ac5198727eab9d4e0e9b9bfef25d495108e7bb and -addnode=mehh.earlz.net you should enter safemode
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1324 2014-07-10 16:36:23 <earlz> for that network, there was a fork at 147 on only one node
1325 2014-07-10 16:36:25 <earlz> 2014-07-10 16:08:07 AddToWallet e1e7a05c878826eb1b92d959c3cf65b2cff49132c31c24b0aae5c33bc52b3eb5
1326 2014-07-10 16:36:28 <earlz> 2014-07-10 16:08:07 CheckForkWarningConditions: Warning: Large valid fork found forking the chain at height 147 (00000000091c94f2bac74b1288d7fb856a35a61020b50a2903f3477d0d4e7c3e) lasting to height 155 (00000000c8f493331b28fb98ab3acb322d2df46c39ef86a915d75c2e0b32adbf).
1327 2014-07-10 16:37:00 <earlz> it says valid fork, but it's only valid difficulty wise. the fork isn't accepted because the reward is higher than it should be
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1329 2014-07-10 16:37:30 <gmaxwell> CheckForkWarningConditions != safemode.
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1334 2014-07-10 16:39:56 <sipa> i think it is
1335 2014-07-10 16:40:09 <gmaxwell> just because it sets an rpc string?
1336 2014-07-10 16:40:10 <sipa> GetWarnings (check for safemode) checks for large forks
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1340 2014-07-10 16:43:39 <gmaxwell> earlz: who do you want credited for discovering this?
1341 2014-07-10 16:43:56 <gmaxwell> (e.g. in release notes)
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1348 2014-07-10 16:50:35 <Graet> soo reading that should mining nodes run with -disablesafemode ?
1349 2014-07-10 16:51:15 <Luke-Jr> Graet: temporarily, at most.
1350 2014-07-10 16:51:41 <Luke-Jr> but I think you'd need to isolate a mining node to actually do this anyway
1351 2014-07-10 16:51:48 <Luke-Jr> so it's not a real risk if so
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1353 2014-07-10 16:51:55 <Luke-Jr> since isolation is dangerous already
1354 2014-07-10 16:51:58 <gmaxwell> Seems to not work.
1355 2014-07-10 16:52:15 <gmaxwell> running a node here with -testsafemode=1 and getblocktemplate works fine.
1356 2014-07-10 16:52:47 <Luke-Jr> hm, you mean mining works in safe mode? do we want that? :o
1357 2014-07-10 16:52:53 <Graet> thanks :)
1358 2014-07-10 16:52:54 <BlueMatt> yes
1359 2014-07-10 16:52:55 <gmaxwell> I think we do in any case.
1360 2014-07-10 16:53:02 <gmaxwell> Mining is how you resolve the fork. :)
1361 2014-07-10 16:53:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, if the node might be making invalid blocks, we don't want them mining..
1362 2014-07-10 16:53:44 <Luke-Jr> normal forks shouldn't trigger safe mode at all
1363 2014-07-10 16:53:52 <gmaxwell> but if someone _else_ is making invalid blocks you don't want the correct nodes to stop.
1364 2014-07-10 16:54:05 <Luke-Jr> yes, I agree. but other circumstances you do
1365 2014-07-10 16:54:19 <Luke-Jr> (well, not the correct nodes, but..)
1366 2014-07-10 16:54:32 <BlueMatt> problem is: you dont know
1367 2014-07-10 16:54:49 <gmaxwell> earlz: { "getblocktemplate", &getblocktemplate, true, false, false },
1368 2014-07-10 16:54:58 <gmaxwell> ah, but
1369 2014-07-10 16:55:01 <gmaxwell> { "submitblock", &submitblock, false, true, false },
1370 2014-07-10 16:55:04 <gmaxwell> wtf.
1371 2014-07-10 16:55:31 <Luke-Jr> we should really differentiate between "an invalid chain of substantial length has existed recently" from "there is actively a longer chain than ours that is invalid"
1372 2014-07-10 16:56:02 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's harmless to continue mining on a shorter fork in any case.
1373 2014-07-10 16:56:06 <BlueMatt> does either mean stop mining?
1374 2014-07-10 16:56:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you can mineâ but not submit.
1375 2014-07-10 16:56:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: sorry, that was re: Luke-Jr
1376 2014-07-10 16:56:34 <gmaxwell> If you're really in the wrong it doesn't matter because you have the shoter chain.
1377 2014-07-10 16:56:46 <BlueMatt> well, depends
1378 2014-07-10 16:57:02 <BlueMatt> if you're in the wrong and on the longer chain, or in the wrong and on the shorter chain
1379 2014-07-10 16:57:15 <BlueMatt> in both cases I think we should mine (since we always think we're in the right)
1380 2014-07-10 16:57:29 <BlueMatt> but it'd be interesting to not mine if we're longer
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1383 2014-07-10 16:58:31 <BlueMatt> keep the chains of equal length :p
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1391 2014-07-10 17:08:03 <jtimon> "maybe all bips should have names instead of numbers. i tend to get them mixed up anyway." this makes sense to me, what's the advantage of numbers?
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1399 2014-07-10 17:11:50 <helo> brevity of reference, disambiguity of document
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1401 2014-07-10 17:14:12 <helo> if i say "headers-first", i could be talking about a feature, git branch, design document, web site, etc
1402 2014-07-10 17:14:28 <jcorgan> also, temporal order
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1407 2014-07-10 17:18:10 <gmaxwell> what helo said, it distinguishes a specification which is a very specific thing with the general space of ideas under the name.
1408 2014-07-10 17:19:17 <gmaxwell> earlz: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4507 this addresses the leaf stupidity, but we also need to make safemode less easy to trigger as the real fix to your complaint. That latter part we'll probably let headersfirst accomplish.
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1416 2014-07-10 17:22:29 <ttgg> Has a miner ever mined a block and specifically chosen not to include any transactions except the coinbase transaction? Like, has that happened in the real blockchain?
1417 2014-07-10 17:22:38 <BlueMatt> yes, yes
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1422 2014-07-10 17:23:58 <ttgg> Is there a way to make your own fork die? If you started to fork the chain?
1423 2014-07-10 17:24:18 <BlueMatt> let it sit?
1424 2014-07-10 17:24:22 <BlueMatt> others will kill it for you
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1428 2014-07-10 17:25:18 <ttgg> The probability of someone being the one to solve 100 blocks in a row is pretty much impossible I guess... But if you could chain 100 blocks after you solved one, you could spend your block reward from block 0 and then kill the whole chain afterwards
1429 2014-07-10 17:25:30 <ttgg> well, the whole fork
1430 2014-07-10 17:26:01 <ttgg> I see now why it's a silly idea someone could pull that off easily with only 51% of the hash power...
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1432 2014-07-10 17:26:29 <kazcw> what, if they wanted 1% of their block subsidies?
1433 2014-07-10 17:27:08 <michagogo> 20:09:55 <jcorgan> also, temporal order
1434 2014-07-10 17:27:08 <michagogo> Nope.
1435 2014-07-10 17:27:51 <ttgg> Could someone like... hold the blockchain hostage? by making everyone else's blocks/transactions invalid? And demand payment to turn off hashing power? Wow, that would be bad... It would make for a good DieHard movie though...
1436 2014-07-10 17:28:23 <michagogo> ttgg: in theory they could, if they had substantially more than half of hashpower
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1438 2014-07-10 17:28:34 <kazcw> ttgg: this channel is for development discussion, your questions are more suited to #bitcoin
1439 2014-07-10 17:28:39 <michagogo> Bu- ^
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1441 2014-07-10 17:29:01 <ttgg> ah, sorry, I'm reading the developer's guide and it's making me think, I'll shoot my theory questions over there
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1445 2014-07-10 17:31:16 <earlz> gmaxwell: me credited, earlz (or earlz.net for a url)
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1447 2014-07-10 17:32:19 <earlz> and it's only a true network-wide risk if a DNS seed node were to attempt this attack, otherwise it's only a targeted attack
1448 2014-07-10 17:32:26 <ProfMac> where is the developer's guide?
1449 2014-07-10 17:32:51 <sipa> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-documentation
1450 2014-07-10 17:32:53 <earlz> Also, getblockhash X doesn't work with safemode either making things entirely too complicated
1451 2014-07-10 17:33:06 <earlz> "what is block XX for you.. oh, I can't figure that out"
1452 2014-07-10 17:33:20 <gmaxwell> Yes. I fixed that too.
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1454 2014-07-10 17:34:43 <jcorgan> michagogo: i suppose bip numbers are assigned out of order then?
1455 2014-07-10 17:34:52 <michagogo> yep, look at the list
1456 2014-07-10 17:35:24 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: there has been some logical grouping.
1457 2014-07-10 17:35:29 <jcorgan> ah ok
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1459 2014-07-10 17:36:46 <earlz> lol see, altcoins aren't so bad afterall lol. I found out about this problem with a planned fork in Fractalcoin (I'm a dev). The entire network froze because of this with the correct side of the fork being shut down, despite the incorrect side being weaker (weaker difficulty, but higher block height)
1460 2014-07-10 17:38:09 <gmaxwell> earlz: a very rare event!
1461 2014-07-10 17:38:14 <gmaxwell> Thanks.
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1464 2014-07-10 17:41:12 <michagogo> gmaxwell: heh, missing commas are annoying
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1466 2014-07-10 17:42:35 <gmaxwell> michagogo: "I have no idea what you are talking about."
1467 2014-07-10 17:42:36 <gmaxwell> :P
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1521 2014-07-10 18:57:11 <jtimon> helo gmaxwell what's wrong with "bip headers first" when you refer to specification?
1522 2014-07-10 18:57:11 <jtimon> I mean, "bip 70" would not be replaced with "payment protocol" but "payment protocol bip" or something...(well, probably you would leave the existing ones as numbers even if we move to letters)
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1571 2014-07-10 19:58:48 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: I see no conflict between having numbers and also referring to them by name
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1573 2014-07-10 19:59:36 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: I mean, people talk about HTTP even while it has multiple RFC numbers
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1579 2014-07-10 20:10:32 <jtimon> Luke-Jr good point
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1587 2014-07-10 20:17:26 <xenog> hey, I am looking at AddTimeData, and I wonder how necessary that is in a world with ubiquitous NTP
1588 2014-07-10 20:18:30 <sipa> still, many actual nodes on the network don't have even 1-second accurate clocks
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1590 2014-07-10 20:19:18 <xenog> sipa: is there any hard statistics?
1591 2014-07-10 20:20:00 <sipa> -20 -15 -13 -8 -3 -3 -1 +0 +0 +0 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +3 +4 +5 +7 +13 +24 | nTimeOffset = +1 (+0 minutes)
1592 2014-07-10 20:20:06 <sipa> ^- bitcoin.sipa.be
1593 2014-07-10 20:20:46 <xenog> I would think that is in seconds
1594 2014-07-10 20:20:50 <sipa> it is
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1596 2014-07-10 20:22:47 <Luke-Jr> xenog: NTP is centralised
1597 2014-07-10 20:22:49 <gmaxwell> xenog: NTP is a highly insecure, and typically fairly centeralized protocol (e.g. look at the fun false leapsecond insertions last year). _requring_ it for bitcoin would be unfortunate.
1598 2014-07-10 20:22:58 <gmaxwell> (well, insecure as deployed)
1599 2014-07-10 20:23:34 <xenog> touché
1600 2014-07-10 20:23:38 <gmaxwell> our requirements for timing precision are fairly modest in any case.
1601 2014-07-10 20:24:01 <gmaxwell> if you're interested though, there are some attacks against our AddTimeData stuff that should probably be fixed.
1602 2014-07-10 20:24:01 <Luke-Jr> xenog: the whole point of the blockchain is that there is no central authority. using NTP would essentially make all that effort for nothing
1603 2014-07-10 20:25:27 <sipa> well, not entirely... if some secure mechanism for maintaining accurate clocks on internet-connected systems were available, we wouldn't need our own mechanism for measuring likely offsets
1604 2014-07-10 20:25:48 <sipa> even if that system is relatively centralized, but already inherently trusted by those running nodes
1605 2014-07-10 20:26:07 <gmaxwell> (right now there are some attacks where if you accept inbound connections peers connecting in can slew your time somewhat. Not far enough to be harmful, but if they slew miners the other direction (again not far enough to be harmful) the combination can result in chain rejection.
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1607 2014-07-10 20:31:02 <gmaxwell> Other things wrt timing: we should interogate local NTP (or a manual setting) and if we believe our time is accurate we should be far more limited in what adjustments we allow from the network, and round our network time towards our local time. E.g. if our computed offset is +4 we should use +3 instead, so that the network has some integral correction back towards the correct time.
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1609 2014-07-10 20:31:31 <gmaxwell> (I've sybil attacked the network previously to move it back to UTC when it was a few seconds off)
1610 2014-07-10 20:32:34 <Luke-Jr> I think a rounding bias toward local time is a good idea in any case
1611 2014-07-10 20:32:58 <gmaxwell> well I think it shouldn't do it unless it has some reason to think the local time is at all accurate.
1612 2014-07-10 20:33:24 <gmaxwell> on *NIX you can interogate NTP locally.
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1614 2014-07-10 20:33:37 <gmaxwell> (there is an implementation of this in gnunet IIRC)
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1620 2014-07-10 20:38:31 <xenog> interesting comments
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1623 2014-07-10 20:41:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't see harm in wrong clocks having a bias
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1639 2014-07-10 20:48:21 <ttgg> Why is such a wide time discrepancy allowed in the first place? Is there no way to efficiently enforce a synced time within some margin of error?
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1641 2014-07-10 20:51:17 <gmaxwell> We don't need very precise time, the kind of time you could set from observing the sun and knowing your location and the rough date is basically sufficient.
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1643 2014-07-10 20:51:43 <gmaxwell> And getting precise time in a non-trusy-non-centeralized way is currently unsolved.
1644 2014-07-10 20:51:57 <michagogo> 23:18:17 <@gmaxwell> xenog: NTP is a highly insecure, and typically fairly centeralized protocol (e.g. look at the fun false leapsecond insertions last year). _requring_ it for bitcoin would be unfortunate.
1645 2014-07-10 20:51:58 <michagogo> fun false leapsecond insertions?
1646 2014-07-10 20:53:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, start selling sun following clocks
1647 2014-07-10 20:53:36 <gmaxwell> michagogo: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.protocols.time.ntp/vhVlH4ENsJQ/7tk2ArJ415wJ
1648 2014-07-10 20:53:53 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well I have a better sun using scheme, but I'm unlikely to productize it anytime soon.
1649 2014-07-10 20:54:09 <gmaxwell> michagogo: it's happened several times that NTP has emitted a leap second when there wasn't one. On accident.
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1652 2014-07-10 20:54:41 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, is it secret
1653 2014-07-10 20:55:31 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no it's not secret, you've probably seen it before. page was written way back in 2011, it's due for a revision because I know many more things https://people.xiph.org/~greg/decentralized-time.txt
1654 2014-07-10 20:56:12 <gmaxwell> (including the fact that national labs already use a related scheme (though not using observations of the sun) for the time transfer used to compute utc in the first place)
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1658 2014-07-10 20:59:47 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: hm, somewhere along the lines (not your fault), the longpoll branch acquired a bug XD
1659 2014-07-10 21:00:12 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: do you want to fix it in your branch, or should we reopen mine?
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1661 2014-07-10 21:00:47 <Luke-Jr> (obviously I'd move in your updates too)
1662 2014-07-10 21:03:20 <gwillen> gmaxwell: my understanding is that the reflected signals would definitely be too weak unless you have a Very Serious Antenna
1663 2014-07-10 21:03:26 <gwillen> gmaxwell: (re the crazy bit of your doc)
1664 2014-07-10 21:03:47 <gwillen> gmaxwell: if you have a Very Serious Antenna I know it's possible to bounce a signal off the moon and receive it with another Very Serious Antenna
1665 2014-07-10 21:05:01 <gwillen> gmaxwell: the sun-noise-reference is a really interesting concept; it's basically an "at the tone, the time will be" with a 'tone' supplied externally
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1668 2014-07-10 21:06:02 <gmaxwell> gwillen: yep. The bottom part is a flight of fancy. The top part very likely works, and absolutely will work if you instead of using the sun "use _arbritary_ satellites and a SDR". (when the national labs do thisâ though just using trust instead of a POW blockchain :)â it's called 'common view time transfer')
1669 2014-07-10 21:06:39 <gwillen> interesting.
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1673 2014-07-10 21:10:43 <jtimon> jaromil you may be interested in this last conversation about timestamping
1674 2014-07-10 21:13:23 <gmaxwell> Tom Van Baak (leapsecond.com) was pretty interested in this stuff and would likely participate (with his own national lab grade timing ensemble) if someone had the interest and time to go building it.
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1686 2014-07-10 21:23:11 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I wonder how expensive the equipment would be to use pulsars as your nighttime common reference
1687 2014-07-10 21:23:32 <gmaxwell> gwillen: very expensive. :( needs 20+ foot dishes.
1688 2014-07-10 21:23:41 <gwillen> :-(
1689 2014-07-10 21:23:52 <gmaxwell> moon may work too.
1690 2014-07-10 21:24:01 <gwillen> well, I've always wanted a radiotelescope....
1691 2014-07-10 21:25:01 <xenog> OK, so I wondered why the Bitcoin code does track the time offset with the rest of the network nodes instead of relying on the clocks being accurate, and no
1692 2014-07-10 21:25:17 <xenog> and now we ended up with radiotelescopes
1693 2014-07-10 21:25:20 <xenog> cool
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1719 2014-07-10 21:49:15 <andytoshi> if i send a getdata with a bunch of blockhashes to bitcoind, does it matter what order they are in?
1720 2014-07-10 21:49:25 <sipa> no
1721 2014-07-10 21:49:28 <andytoshi> is it more efficient if they are consecutive?
1722 2014-07-10 21:49:38 <sipa> probably yes
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1724 2014-07-10 21:49:49 <sipa> at least currently
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1726 2014-07-10 21:50:06 <sipa> with headers-first they'll be downloaded and likely stored out of order on disk anyway
1727 2014-07-10 21:51:01 <andytoshi> sure, but i thought there might be prev/next links that can be traversed rather than doing lookups
1728 2014-07-10 21:51:41 <andytoshi> for example in my code i got a big speedup by having my add-block-to-blockchain function check first if the next block is an extension of the old chain
1729 2014-07-10 21:51:50 <phantomcircuit> andytoshi, depends entirely on what type of disk the peer is using and whether the blocks are in memory already
1730 2014-07-10 21:52:24 <andytoshi> ok, i thought there might be an asymptotic difference.. thx
1731 2014-07-10 21:54:10 <sipa> looking up the block information in the index is nanoseconds
1732 2014-07-10 21:54:26 <sipa> it's in memory
1733 2014-07-10 21:54:35 <sipa> thr only thing that will matter is disk latency
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1735 2014-07-10 21:58:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, does the block index has the offset or just the filename?
1736 2014-07-10 21:58:30 <phantomcircuit> iirc the block read function used to be semi bruteforce
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1739 2014-07-10 21:59:06 <kazcw> it has the offset
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1793 2014-07-10 22:52:43 <xenog> by the way, checking the bitcoind implementation for AddTimeData, it is noticeable that the first element added to the median list is 0, therefore it will tend to skew things towards the local clock a bit
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