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  40 2014-07-11 01:13:12 <tjr-> Hi all.  I've been trying to search for info about BIP62 (Transaction MAlleability). Seems to be 'Draft' status.  Is it (partially?) implemented anywhere, or is it purely a 'maybe this will happen someday' BIP? Are there any plans to deploy it?
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 171 2014-07-11 02:28:45 <copumpkin> I wish I could only keep the most recent X chunk of the blockchain
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 181 2014-07-11 02:35:47 <wumpus> copumpkin: try https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4481
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 206 2014-07-11 03:02:25 <dhill> Luke-Jr: do you run the dashjr.org seed?
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 210 2014-07-11 03:03:42 <Luke-Jr> dhill: yes
 211 2014-07-11 03:03:53 <Luke-Jr> well, depending on what "run" means <.<
 212 2014-07-11 03:04:22 <dhill> $ host dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
 213 2014-07-11 03:04:22 <dhill> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
 214 2014-07-11 03:04:22 <gribble> Error: "connection" is not a valid command.
 215 2014-07-11 03:04:32 <Luke-Jr> dhill: yes, it's not *running* right now
 216 2014-07-11 03:04:38 <dhill> ok
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 218 2014-07-11 03:05:27 <Luke-Jr> dhill: XO.net likes to DoS my server when I run it, and their support is crap (= slow)
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 220 2014-07-11 03:07:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'll fix it in my pull
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 222 2014-07-11 03:07:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: k
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 224 2014-07-11 03:10:21 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what's the approximate cost of an ioctl SPI_IOC_MESSAGE call on an arm processor?
 225 2014-07-11 03:11:14 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I would imagine it depends on the specific processor
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 229 2014-07-11 03:12:36 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, lets say it's an RPI because im sure you know what one :P
 230 2014-07-11 03:12:46 <phantomcircuit> (closer to a bbb)
 231 2014-07-11 03:13:23 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: RPI and BBB are very different :p
 232 2014-07-11 03:13:33 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ok
 233 2014-07-11 03:13:35 <phantomcircuit> bbb
 234 2014-07-11 03:13:38 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: regardless of what chipset, I don't know the answer ;)
 235 2014-07-11 03:13:41 <phantomcircuit> (and yes i know)
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 238 2014-07-11 03:16:56 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, you're no fun :P
 239 2014-07-11 03:17:33 <Luke-Jr> <.<
 240 2014-07-11 03:17:51 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: let's say it's never been so low that I've had to worry about it
 241 2014-07-11 03:17:57 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: 100 satoshis
 242 2014-07-11 03:18:03 <Luke-Jr> OTOH, I *am* combining as much traffic into a single syscall as possible already :/
 243 2014-07-11 03:18:24 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, heh
 244 2014-07-11 03:18:33 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, yeah that seems like it's necessary
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 430 2014-07-11 07:01:59 <ttll> how difficult would it be to add a "execscript" rpc call to bitcoin-qt (for research purposes only)
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 432 2014-07-11 07:02:44 <ttll> basically just taking a scriptSig and scriptPubKey in hex format
 433 2014-07-11 07:03:44 <ttll> or is there an existing rpc call that lets me test arbitrary scripts
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 488 2014-07-11 08:02:03 <houska> hi, don't know if this is the right channel, but could someone please help me with this question? http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/29416/how-do-pool-servers-handle-multiple-workers-sharing-one-connection-with-stratum
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 520 2014-07-11 08:56:57 <jaromil> jtimon: re timestamping ACK reading now
 521 2014-07-11 08:57:24 <jaromil> i'm into a codesprint for some other proj this weekend but will have time to thinker (too interesting to look over it)
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 655 2014-07-11 11:18:05 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it has the offset and always has. it uses bruteforce ffor finding particular transactions in a given block if needed (for the getrawtransaction rpc)
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 658 2014-07-11 11:19:04 <sipa> tjr-: probably it will happen someday
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 705 2014-07-11 11:46:22 <tjopper1> !middag
 706 2014-07-11 11:46:23 <gribble> Error: "middag" is not a valid command.
 707 2014-07-11 11:46:30 <tjopper1> !koffiemet
 708 2014-07-11 11:46:31 <gribble> Error: "koffiemet" is not a valid command.
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 765 2014-07-11 12:30:43 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: a new transaction entering the mempool is also supposed to break the long poll, or not?
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 773 2014-07-11 12:36:32 <wumpus> oh it waits at least a minute
 774 2014-07-11 12:36:44 <wumpus> (before looking for a mempool change)
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 786 2014-07-11 12:41:57 <wumpus> we should have the option to modify these timeouts, but as you say that can be done in a later pull...
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 825 2014-07-11 13:05:39 <wumpus> anyhow, added tests, and they pass
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 870 2014-07-11 13:35:01 <cronus> if im building a web service that will handle bitcoin payments and I want to get notifications when receive addresses get a transaction is it bad practice to run a full node with bitcoind on the same machine my web server is running on?
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 883 2014-07-11 13:47:42 <kiddouk> cronus: I think it's actually ok to do so. Running the node locally on another server will have no differences. You still have to connect RPC to the node to get some info.
 884 2014-07-11 13:47:44 <wumpus> cronus: you could use the new watchonly functionality in master
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 886 2014-07-11 13:48:39 <wumpus> running a node isn't a problem, but running a live wallet with private keys on the same server (or in connection to) the web server is a bad idea
 887 2014-07-11 13:48:48 <gmaxwell> Anyone know what the nTargetSize + 1 in wallet.cpp is for?  A result of it is that you can't set the keypool target lower than the current keypool size and keep it from generating any new keys.
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 892 2014-07-11 13:50:23 <wumpus> gmaxwell: why not? you just have  to pass one lower than what you want
 893 2014-07-11 13:50:34 <wumpus> gmaxwell: the only thing you cannot do is generate a keypool of one
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 895 2014-07-11 13:51:09 <wumpus> it's either 0, which means the current default keypoolsize, or 1, which means 2
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 898 2014-07-11 13:52:30 <sipa> i expect it was once there for dealing with the default key
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 903 2014-07-11 13:53:34 <sipa> if anyone feels like converting this to a wiki article: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/29418/208, be my guest :)
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 905 2014-07-11 13:54:26 <wumpus> maybe at some point, although the default key has not been part of the keypool for as long as I can remember, it's a normal address with empty label
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 907 2014-07-11 13:55:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: hm right. there is some point where it always generates a new key even when the keypool is full when getinfo is called... I thought for a moment that the cause was there, but you're right.
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 912 2014-07-11 13:55:38 <gmaxwell> (e.g. it reserves a key then releases it)
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 915 2014-07-11 13:57:25 <wumpus> gmaxwell: anyhow, ack on removing that +1 if it doesn't cause problems, I doubt anyone is relying on that behavior (it's not documented anywhere either)
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 917 2014-07-11 13:57:55 <cronus> yeah wouldn’t be storing a wallet on it, just the node with watch addresses for incoming transactions
 918 2014-07-11 13:58:07 <wumpus> cronus: that's fine
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 922 2014-07-11 14:00:02 <cronus> any docs on new watchonly functionality?
 923 2014-07-11 14:00:05 <wumpus> sipa: nice, block database documentation, I wouldn't encourage people to regard it as a stable interface, but it's useful for developer documentation
 924 2014-07-11 14:00:09 <wumpus> cronus: nope
 925 2014-07-11 14:00:15 <cronus> heh cool
 926 2014-07-11 14:00:27 <wumpus> cronus: except the RPC help documentation of course
 927 2014-07-11 14:00:37 <wumpus> cronus: see importaddress
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 929 2014-07-11 14:01:28 <cronus> ok thanks ill check it out
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 971 2014-07-11 14:19:21 <wumpus> and if you have any questions just ask
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 980 2014-07-11 14:23:34 <wumpus> wut https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4509
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 982 2014-07-11 14:25:04 <wumpus> that should never happen, getnewaddress will not return a default address if the keypool is empty (unlike getrawchangeaddress did)
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 986 2014-07-11 14:26:11 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, I don't believe thats possible... I can't sort out that users response.
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1011 2014-07-11 14:43:11 <cronus> is it okay to run a node from master? importaddress isn’t in a release yet, right?
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1015 2014-07-11 14:45:28 <wumpus> cronus: it's ok, just be aware that you're using something that is not as well-tested as a release
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1018 2014-07-11 14:46:03 <cronus> yeah
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1026 2014-07-11 14:49:48 <wumpus> and on the other hand if no one tests master, problems only come to light in releases, which is also not good
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1065 2014-07-11 15:03:31 <sipa> jaromil: c++ polymorphism is just a clean encapsulation around function pointers
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1067 2014-07-11 15:03:58 <jaromil> that can be, yes that's how i used it in the past
1068 2014-07-11 15:04:07 <sipa> i don't see how function pointers are either 1) cleaner  2) easier to integrate with templates  or 3) more performant
1069 2014-07-11 15:04:13 <sipa> they're just more flexible
1070 2014-07-11 15:04:33 <jaromil> 1) maybe just depends how they are written 2) templates should not break 3) not more performant
1071 2014-07-11 15:04:38 <sipa> and either solution prevents inlining
1072 2014-07-11 15:04:44 <jaromil> so well not a solution to these 3 points
1073 2014-07-11 15:05:00 <jaromil> but look. i don't know for sure yet but maybe we can leave inlines
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1077 2014-07-11 15:05:26 <jaromil> and zoom out making some function pointers that provide a set of functions and also initialize atttributes inside classes
1078 2014-07-11 15:05:33 <jaromil> i'd rather leave polymorphism out
1079 2014-07-11 15:05:35 <sipa> please...
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1081 2014-07-11 15:06:20 <jaromil> i would enjoy so much looking at you while i spell: atlcoin plugins
1082 2014-07-11 15:06:24 <jaromil> altcoin
1083 2014-07-11 15:06:26 <jaromil> lol
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1085 2014-07-11 15:06:31 <sipa> yuck
1086 2014-07-11 15:06:39 <jaromil> make a selfie plz
1087 2014-07-11 15:06:48 <sipa> i don't want any dynamically loadable code in bitcoind
1088 2014-07-11 15:06:51 Starduster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1089 2014-07-11 15:07:06 <jaromil> yea is a bit far out
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1092 2014-07-11 15:07:29 <jaromil> and would create situations in which the client breaks when loading fauly dlos and who knows what
1093 2014-07-11 15:07:36 <jaromil> so yea a definitive treat to security
1094 2014-07-11 15:07:53 <jaromil> unless there is authentication
1095 2014-07-11 15:08:05 <sipa> let's cleanly encapsulate the validation state into a class instead of a bunch of main.cpp globals
1096 2014-07-11 15:08:19 <jaromil> that's pacific, should definitely happen
1097 2014-07-11 15:08:30 <sipa> and if we want multiple PoWs with different serializations, make that validation state templates into the PoW type
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1099 2014-07-11 15:09:07 <jaromil> uh, interesting
1100 2014-07-11 15:09:10 <jaromil> can you explain?
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1102 2014-07-11 15:09:55 <sipa> template<typename POW> class ValidationState { class CBlockHeader { POW pow; ...}; }
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1104 2014-07-11 15:10:12 <sipa> which means everything is resolved at compile time
1105 2014-07-11 15:10:17 <jaromil> that's very nice
1106 2014-07-11 15:10:20 <jaromil> at first look
1107 2014-07-11 15:10:27 <sipa> and all pow-specific code just results in 2 separate compiled versions at runtime
1108 2014-07-11 15:10:33 <sipa> which are both fully inlined
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1110 2014-07-11 15:10:40 <jaromil> plus yea. i got some fun tripping into the dlopen idea but definitely i'm not for it
1111 2014-07-11 15:11:02 <jaromil> compile time is all what's needed
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1113 2014-07-11 15:11:17 <sipa> yeah, there's no need to have different PoW per individual block
1114 2014-07-11 15:11:22 <sipa> it's per validation engine
1115 2014-07-11 15:11:34 <jaromil> and process separation is MUCH BETTER for security in general
1116 2014-07-11 15:11:52 <sipa> it can still be one binary that has both engines
1117 2014-07-11 15:11:53 * jaromil still grows hair from the video plugin business...
1118 2014-07-11 15:12:12 <jaromil> ok
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1122 2014-07-11 15:12:25 <wumpus> since when do we need pow plugins in bitcoin?!
1123 2014-07-11 15:12:35 <wumpus> people this is bitcoin-dev not altcoin-dev
1124 2014-07-11 15:12:39 <jaromil> i don't fully understand your validation state templates approach, are you planning to make a PR with it?
1125 2014-07-11 15:12:58 <wumpus> please focus on actual issues
1126 2014-07-11 15:13:17 <sipa> it's about encapsulating the pow code, which is useful imho
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1128 2014-07-11 15:13:25 <jaromil> yes i was spacing out
1129 2014-07-11 15:13:32 <wumpus> well it sounds a bit like architecture astronautism to me, but well
1130 2014-07-11 15:13:36 <gmaxwell> I generally prefer to minimize the use of language features which might allow a small out of bounds memory access to be elevated to a change of control flow.
1131 2014-07-11 15:13:40 <sipa> but using virtual functions that break the serialization inlining is a step way too far
1132 2014-07-11 15:13:41 <jaromil> i hereby promise i'll never go that way anymore
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1134 2014-07-11 15:13:56 <wumpus> PoW is the least interesting thing to experiment with
1135 2014-07-11 15:14:06 <jaromil> why so?
1136 2014-07-11 15:14:15 <sipa> in bitcoin it is
1137 2014-07-11 15:14:23 <sipa> so let's move elsewhere
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1139 2014-07-11 15:15:14 <gmaxwell> jaromil: because up to constant factors it doesn't really change anything.
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1153 2014-07-11 15:22:36 <cronus> what’s fastest way to get blockchain on a fresh unix box?  jack up maxconnections? is there a direct download that’s more up to date then that march 2013 link?
1154 2014-07-11 15:22:52 <sipa> no, decrease maxconnections
1155 2014-07-11 15:23:06 <sipa> even better, use -connect=IP to a single fast peer
1156 2014-07-11 15:23:09 <sipa> also, use bootstrap.dat
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1162 2014-07-11 15:25:37 <wumpus> using =connect=IP to a local box works very well
1163 2014-07-11 15:25:42 <wumpus> (if you have any other nodes)
1164 2014-07-11 15:26:03 <wumpus> otherwise, bootstrap.dat is the best option
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1166 2014-07-11 15:27:31 <helo> what is the trust model for distributing a signed {binary, bootstrap.dat, utxo at block N} vs just a signed binary?
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1168 2014-07-11 15:28:53 <sipa> if you have bootstrap.dat, why do you need the utxo set?
1169 2014-07-11 15:28:54 <wumpus> well the bootstrap.dat has a completely different trust model
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1171 2014-07-11 15:29:08 <sipa> the utxo set needs to be completely trusted
1172 2014-07-11 15:29:09 <helo> if such a signed utxo is invalid/compromised/incorrect, such a signed binary may be invalid/compromised/incorrect, which would be just as broken
1173 2014-07-11 15:29:29 <wumpus> yes, the utxo set does, there's no valid reason to distribute it to strangers
1174 2014-07-11 15:29:43 <wumpus> but bootstrap.dat is, no need to sign it
1175 2014-07-11 15:29:54 <sipa> you may argue that release binaries also need to be fully trusted
1176 2014-07-11 15:30:02 <sipa> and we could build a utxo set database inside gitian
1177 2014-07-11 15:30:08 <wumpus> hah
1178 2014-07-11 15:30:18 <helo> (in distributing the utxo i'm saying clients wouldn't validate the blockchain, but would have it to serve to others)
1179 2014-07-11 15:30:28 <sipa> you don't serve the utxo set
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1181 2014-07-11 15:30:40 <sipa> if you don't validate, you don't need the utxo set at all
1182 2014-07-11 15:30:58 <wumpus> no thank you, the gitian builds are already slow enough
1183 2014-07-11 15:31:02 <helo> you validate from the signed utxo forward
1184 2014-07-11 15:31:30 <wumpus> let the lazy people build their own utxo set
1185 2014-07-11 15:31:31 <sipa> i really prefer the amount of trusted data as small as possible...
1186 2014-07-11 15:31:36 <wumpus> +1 sipa
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1189 2014-07-11 15:32:00 <sipa> long term more scalable solution: committed utxo sets
1190 2014-07-11 15:32:07 <helo> yeah.
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1192 2014-07-11 15:32:22 <sipa> so you can download the utxo set of the state in the past, and have SPV-level trust in it for free
1193 2014-07-11 15:32:29 <wumpus> sure, committed utxo sets is a completely different beast, and would make it useful to distribute the utxos
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1234 2014-07-11 15:59:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: right, it only checks on 1 minute intervals
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1279 2014-07-11 16:20:10 <cronus> is there a bitcoin-clie command to get progress on blockchain syncing process?
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1282 2014-07-11 16:20:50 <gmaxwell> cronus: getblockchaininfo keep in mind this is an estimate
1283 2014-07-11 16:21:15 <cronus> is that out of 1 or 100 :(
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1286 2014-07-11 16:21:24 <gmaxwell> cronus: it's out of 1.
1287 2014-07-11 16:21:27 <cronus> oh
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1289 2014-07-11 16:21:30 <cronus> thats not too bad then
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1291 2014-07-11 16:21:36 <gmaxwell> but it will never show 1
1292 2014-07-11 16:21:40 <cronus> ok
1293 2014-07-11 16:21:54 <gmaxwell> eventually the estimate becomes very close to 1, but by definition you are always syncing.
1294 2014-07-11 16:22:00 <cronus> yeah
1295 2014-07-11 16:22:03 <cronus> makes sense
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1326 2014-07-11 16:38:17 <cronus> does bitcoind use more memory during initial sync then it would otherwise?
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1334 2014-07-11 16:40:48 <sipa> possibly
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1353 2014-07-11 16:53:06 <helo> i wouldn't bet on it using less after sync, though
1354 2014-07-11 16:54:30 <helo> (looks like ~630MB here)
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1361 2014-07-11 17:05:25 <earlz> is it seen as possible to make multisig user friendly from the graphical wallet?
1362 2014-07-11 17:05:55 <buZz> did you see they released a multisig webwallet?
1363 2014-07-11 17:06:23 <shesek> earlz, I personally think that its going to be quite challenging to make a general-purpose multisig tool user friendly
1364 2014-07-11 17:06:28 <buZz> http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/07/09/copay-beta-an-open-source-multisig-wallet.html
1365 2014-07-11 17:06:30 <earlz> yea, but webwallet is entirely different
1366 2014-07-11 17:06:44 <buZz> ok, it just might make user interaction studies easier
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1368 2014-07-11 17:06:53 <shesek> I think that specialized tools for a specific use-case are going to work out much better, usability/UX wise
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1370 2014-07-11 17:07:45 <buZz> agreed
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1372 2014-07-11 17:08:11 <earlz> I think it should be capable of being generalized a bit, but yea it's definitely not a trivial task
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1379 2014-07-11 17:12:18 <earlz> I think it should eb possible to do mutlisig easily completely locally.. but eh, with how incompletely signed transactions can't be broadcast, I'm not sure how to make such a thing work
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1381 2014-07-11 17:12:26 <earlz> well, not compeltely locally, but you know
1382 2014-07-11 17:12:50 <sipa> well the hard part is negotiating the transaction before it's fully signed
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1384 2014-07-11 17:13:32 <earlz> yea. I was toying with the idea of if you used one of the many ways ot store data in the blockchain, if you could store the in-progress transaction in that way, but I imagine it'd be quite expensive
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1386 2014-07-11 17:13:52 <sipa> DIE
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1388 2014-07-11 17:14:09 <earlz> lol what's wrong with huge transactions wasting space? :)
1389 2014-07-11 17:14:16 <sipa> there's no point in doing that; it's expensive, forces costs onto everyone in the system, and hurts your privacy
1390 2014-07-11 17:14:36 <sipa> it's purely data only you and the other partners in the multisig transaction care about
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1392 2014-07-11 17:14:59 <sipa> use the internet, it was designed for this
1393 2014-07-11 17:15:06 <sipa> instead of the blockchain
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1396 2014-07-11 17:15:41 <earlz> yea, but then you have to mess with URLs and such. Maybe if there was a secondary p2p protocol bolted on top for incomplete transactions? but then ddos and spam.. ugh
1397 2014-07-11 17:15:48 <earlz> just a hard problem
1398 2014-07-11 17:15:58 <sipa> well yes, it will need a different system
1399 2014-07-11 17:16:10 <sipa> but that's a one time design cost
1400 2014-07-11 17:16:19 <sipa> not a perpetual cost to everyone
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1402 2014-07-11 17:16:37 <sipa> the only data that belongs in the blockchain is what the world needs to validate your transaction
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1404 2014-07-11 17:17:03 <gmaxwell> you don't make spam better by requring the data be broadcast to everyone. :)
1405 2014-07-11 17:17:17 <earlz> yea, a secondary p2p network that avoided spam and ddos attacks would be ideal.. but not sure how possible that is
1406 2014-07-11 17:17:23 <sipa> no, not a p2p network
1407 2014-07-11 17:17:40 <sipa> you're likely already communicating with the peers in some way digitally
1408 2014-07-11 17:17:41 <sipa> reuse it
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1410 2014-07-11 17:18:06 <sipa> email, a website, some file sharing mechanism, ...
1411 2014-07-11 17:18:25 <sipa> i'm aware this is very vague, but it's not a technically hard problem
1412 2014-07-11 17:18:27 <earlz> being able to do it all from a local wallet though would be nice.. but handling centralization in the wallet is somethign that seems like a terrible idea
1413 2014-07-11 17:18:27 <sipa> just engineering
1414 2014-07-11 17:18:42 <earlz> it's technically hard to make easy to use :)
1415 2014-07-11 17:18:45 <sipa> yes
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1423 2014-07-11 17:37:12 <cronus> using latest bootstrap.dat how long should i expect sync to take?
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1425 2014-07-11 17:38:20 <dabura667> 5-8 hours for me... but that was a little while back.
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1432 2014-07-11 17:39:46 <cronus> ok thats not too bad
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1436 2014-07-11 17:40:07 <cronus> blockchain is growing about 1gb a month these days?
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1468 2014-07-11 17:45:07 <earlz> So, isn't it possible to use the distributed nature of torrents to distribute an always up to date bootstrap.dat?
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1476 2014-07-11 17:46:41 <earlz> I know there is a relatively new torrent method where there is no tracker required. And if all nodes agree on teh data in it, no copying between seed nodes is necessary
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1478 2014-07-11 17:46:42 <earlz> I'm not sure what's the slow part about pulling down the blockchain though. Is it checking blocks or downloading the actual datA?
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1549 2014-07-11 18:34:41 <sipa> earlz: it's validatingth transactions in it
1550 2014-07-11 18:35:00 <earlz> that's lame ugh
1551 2014-07-11 18:35:07 <sipa> earlz: we don't assume the torrent data is valid
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1554 2014-07-11 18:35:49 <sipa> lame? it is essential
1555 2014-07-11 18:36:18 <sipa> bitcoin for the first.time ever builds a currency where everyone.can.validate that nobody is.cheating
1556 2014-07-11 18:36:40 <kiddouk> Guys, what's the difference between checking blocks at level 3 or at level4  ?
1557 2014-07-11 18:36:53 <sipa> don't give up that right by randomly going.to trust some central party that builds a torrent
1558 2014-07-11 18:37:13 <sipa> kiddouk: level 4 verifies signatures
1559 2014-07-11 18:37:18 <earlz> well, the idea with torrent data being valid... it's all checksummed, and if all nodes agree on what should exist in there, it can be distributed easily
1560 2014-07-11 18:37:24 <kiddouk> sipa: thx.
1561 2014-07-11 18:37:39 <sipa> how do you know all nodes agree on it?
1562 2014-07-11 18:37:43 <andytoshi> earlz: ah, but how can you agree on what "should exist in there" if you haven't validated it
1563 2014-07-11 18:37:45 <earlz> trackerless torrents should allow seemlessly updating the torrent later too, say 10K blocks at a time or some such
1564 2014-07-11 18:38:00 <earlz> Well, you have to validate it still
1565 2014-07-11 18:38:07 <earlz> just like bootstrap.dat must be validated
1566 2014-07-11 18:38:13 <sipa> yes
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1569 2014-07-11 18:38:53 <sipa> the torrent.is just one way to get the data
1570 2014-07-11 18:38:53 <earlz> and you'd make the nodes agree by ensuring no orphans, so say at +11K blocks, you'd add a torrent for the past 10K blocks or some such
1571 2014-07-11 18:39:09 <sipa> what you do with it.doesnt change
1572 2014-07-11 18:39:16 <earlz> yea, but I'm saying an always up to date torrent capable of being used from the wallet
1573 2014-07-11 18:39:25 <andytoshi> earlz: fwiw you are welcome to create such a torrent, you don't need anyone's blessing
1574 2014-07-11 18:39:38 <sipa> yeah exactly
1575 2014-07-11 18:39:42 <andytoshi> it would probably be welcomed, i don't recall who maintains the current torrent but i think he considers it a chore
1576 2014-07-11 18:39:45 <sipa> there is no "the" torrent
1577 2014-07-11 18:39:48 <andytoshi> jgarzik?
1578 2014-07-11 18:39:55 <sipa> jgarzik maintains it
1579 2014-07-11 18:40:22 <earlz> I'm just putting out ideas. trackerless torrents sounds like the ideal way to bootstrap nodes seemlessly (ie, just piggy backing on the existing p2p network)
1580 2014-07-11 18:40:32 <sipa> also, tje new block.fetching logic probably.comes close to what a torrent achieves
1581 2014-07-11 18:40:45 <sipa> sorry tiny phone typing
1582 2014-07-11 18:40:58 <earlz> new from v0.9? I haven't looked into the new thing I don't think
1583 2014-07-11 18:41:13 <andytoshi> earlz: well, bundling a torrent client with bitcoind is a lot of complexity, probably unjustified as sipa says because the new logic will be really good
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1585 2014-07-11 18:41:43 <andytoshi> and telling everyone "go download bittorrent" is not ideal even if it would be a more appropriate p2p network for initial block download
1586 2014-07-11 18:42:03 <sipa> new for hopefully 0.10
1587 2014-07-11 18:42:31 <earlz> ah, yea definitely haven't seen it lol.
1588 2014-07-11 18:42:49 <earlz> hopefully it works much better. downloading 20G over subpar links sucks really bad heh
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1593 2014-07-11 18:45:23 <sipa> i download and verify the chain now in 3-4 hours with it
1594 2014-07-11 18:45:32 <sipa> from random peers
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1620 2014-07-11 19:06:31 <andytoshi> when i send a getdata can i be assured that the response will be in the right order?
1621 2014-07-11 19:06:38 <andytoshi> same order i sent the inv array*
1622 2014-07-11 19:07:07 <Luke-Jr> no
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1624 2014-07-11 19:07:13 <Luke-Jr> you cannot be assured anything in a p2p network
1625 2014-07-11 19:08:03 <sipa> current implementations work that way
1626 2014-07-11 19:08:11 <sipa> and probably rely on it
1627 2014-07-11 19:08:13 <dhill> andytoshi: never trust input.
1628 2014-07-11 19:08:28 <andytoshi> well...i have to assume the peer is following the protocol, otherwise i'm in trouble
1629 2014-07-11 19:08:33 <andytoshi> within reason
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1633 2014-07-11 19:11:39 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: then you're in trouble :D
1634 2014-07-11 19:11:59 <sipa> well to an extent it is inevitable
1635 2014-07-11 19:12:08 <andytoshi> ok, thx guys. i see how to avoid relying on this
1636 2014-07-11 19:12:18 <andytoshi> it just might be marginally slower
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1638 2014-07-11 19:12:31 <sipa> but make sure you at least don't crash or function incorrectly if they misbehave
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1640 2014-07-11 19:13:37 <andytoshi> well, if i update my utxoset with out-of-order blocks it would refuse to update..so that would be badly incorrect
1641 2014-07-11 19:14:29 <andytoshi> i'll just iterate through the blockchain, looking for missing data, send a getdata to fill in the blanks (which i'll fill in in the blockchain itself), then do the utxo updates from the blockchain (which maintains order correctly)
1642 2014-07-11 19:15:14 <andytoshi> then iterate through the same blocks, removing the blockdata i just installed since it's using RAM i don't have after that..
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1654 2014-07-11 19:28:35 <CodeShark> better yet, do a headers-first sync :)
1655 2014-07-11 19:29:08 <andytoshi> CodeShark: i've got the headers, i'm trying to also maintain a full utxoset :)
1656 2014-07-11 19:30:11 <CodeShark> unless you plan on downloading blocks in parallel from multiple nodes, there doesn't seem to be much of a problem
1657 2014-07-11 19:30:37 Gyps has joined
1658 2014-07-11 19:30:37 <CodeShark> ask for the blocks sequentially
1659 2014-07-11 19:30:48 <andytoshi> well, rust generally doesn't let you say "there won't be much of a problem", so i have to think through various error cases
1660 2014-07-11 19:31:25 <andytoshi> also i am asking sequentially, but i'm bundling up many requests into a single getdata
1661 2014-07-11 19:31:30 <CodeShark> if you're planning on processing the blocks in order, don't ask for the next block until you've received the previous one
1662 2014-07-11 19:32:03 <andytoshi> why?
1663 2014-07-11 19:32:19 <CodeShark> the getdata messages are not the bottleneck
1664 2014-07-11 19:32:49 <andytoshi> oh, ok, thx
1665 2014-07-11 19:32:58 <Luke-Jr> they could be
1666 2014-07-11 19:33:08 <sipa> andytoshi: if you receive blocks out of order, switch peers
1667 2014-07-11 19:33:13 <sipa> they're misbehaving
1668 2014-07-11 19:33:20 <andytoshi> well, for now i've hardcoded my own peer
1669 2014-07-11 19:33:30 <andytoshi> but i'll make a note of that
1670 2014-07-11 19:33:35 <sipa> if your peer is trusted there's no problem
1671 2014-07-11 19:33:48 <sipa> (which you probably should, if you're going to build a utxo set without doing full validation)
1672 2014-07-11 19:35:55 <andytoshi> agreed. my code is structured so it'll be easy enough to do full validation (the UtxoSet has all the information it needs, it just chooses to ignore it beyond "does the input exist" for now), but it's not a priority and i'm not thrilled about writing my own validation code
1673 2014-07-11 19:36:02 <CodeShark> it takes a little while to process a full block - you can be fetching the next block on the network on a separate thread
1674 2014-07-11 19:36:05 <andytoshi> so for now i'll stick to the trusted peer model
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1676 2014-07-11 19:36:30 <andytoshi> CodeShark: oh, good point, that's super easy for me to do
1677 2014-07-11 19:36:36 <sipa> andytoshi: i think you should avoid writing full validation
1678 2014-07-11 19:36:37 <andytoshi> (rust makes everything threadsafe by default)
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1680 2014-07-11 19:36:50 <sipa> it's not very interesting, and very risky in any case
1681 2014-07-11 19:37:15 <andytoshi> fully agreed. i have no plans to do it
1682 2014-07-11 19:37:17 <andytoshi> i'm just saying i could ;)
1683 2014-07-11 19:37:34 <sipa> right, sure
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1686 2014-07-11 19:39:29 <cronus> hey sipa, with importaddress is there any way to be notified when a transaction arrives for any watchonly addresses or will I still need to poll?
1687 2014-07-11 19:39:40 <sipa> -walletnotify
1688 2014-07-11 19:40:37 <Luke-Jr> consider your peer may need to: 1) receive the request - network latency 2) look up the block file/position in db 3) read the block from disk - potentially slow IO 4) deobfuscate the block - which could be obfuscated per-transaction
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1692 2014-07-11 19:42:07 <CodeShark> keep the blocks in memory until they are processede
1693 2014-07-11 19:42:12 <CodeShark> *processed
1694 2014-07-11 19:42:23 <CodeShark> use a separate thread for network I/O and for disk I/O
1695 2014-07-11 19:42:30 bbrian has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1696 2014-07-11 19:43:23 <CodeShark> or do both in the same thread but asynchronously
1697 2014-07-11 19:43:41 <andytoshi> CodeShark: yeah, network I/O is already on its own thread, it puts all the message types in their own queues. my main thread reads from whatever queue(s) are relevant to its current state
1698 2014-07-11 19:43:54 <andytoshi> disk I/O is currently in a big batch, but i'll fix that eventually
1699 2014-07-11 19:44:11 <sipa> does that mean that you'll reply to a ping before processing the messages before it?
1700 2014-07-11 19:44:22 <andytoshi> yes
1701 2014-07-11 19:44:28 <andytoshi> the main thread won't even see the ping
1702 2014-07-11 19:44:33 <sipa> that will breaks some clients
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1704 2014-07-11 19:45:15 <andytoshi> hmm, ok
1705 2014-07-11 19:45:34 <sipa> there are several assumptions that messages per peer are processed in order
1706 2014-07-11 19:45:36 <Luke-Jr> yeah, ping is used as a "everything up to this point is complete"
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1708 2014-07-11 19:45:49 <sipa> also bloom synchronization relies on it
1709 2014-07-11 19:45:54 <sipa> i think
1710 2014-07-11 19:47:21 <andytoshi> ok, i'll pass pings to the main thread. i'm not sure how i can guarantee ordering though
1711 2014-07-11 19:47:26 <andytoshi> i'll think about it
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1716 2014-07-11 19:48:21 <andytoshi> (i mean, i can do it by combining all the message queues, but i don't want to do that because it's very convienient to process nothing but headers messages, for example, during initial sync)
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1718 2014-07-11 19:49:41 <andytoshi> i can also put the ping queue last in the list of queues to simultaneously check, which will guarantee it won't be read until the others are empty (which i know because i've studied rust's selection code)
1719 2014-07-11 19:49:45 weilu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1720 2014-07-11 19:49:53 <sipa> well it's not just ping
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1724 2014-07-11 19:50:22 <sipa> block processing modifies the observable mempool for example
1725 2014-07-11 19:50:42 <sipa> i doubt anything relies on that though
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1727 2014-07-11 19:50:52 <sipa> but in general, you should process messages from peers in order
1728 2014-07-11 19:50:56 ak_ has joined
1729 2014-07-11 19:51:06 <sipa> though not necessarily across peers
1730 2014-07-11 19:51:29 <CodeShark> sipa, are you talking about the BLOOM_UPDATE flags?
1731 2014-07-11 19:51:39 <sipa> oh right, those too
1732 2014-07-11 19:51:55 <andytoshi> ok, i'll go badger the rust devs and see if we can support this
1733 2014-07-11 19:51:55 <sipa> i meant the order of filtered blocks and the transactions in it
1734 2014-07-11 19:52:04 <sipa> what does rust have to do with that?
1735 2014-07-11 19:52:05 * andytoshi has lost several days to writing rust code
1736 2014-07-11 19:52:17 <sipa> i mean, i know it's the language you're writing it
1737 2014-07-11 19:52:27 <andytoshi> sipa: i'm using rust's message passing facilities to pass messages between the network and main thread
1738 2014-07-11 19:52:37 <sipa> but if you don't process things in order that sounds like a bug in your code
1739 2014-07-11 19:52:39 <andytoshi> and i have separate queues for different message types so that i can do this type-safely
1740 2014-07-11 19:52:47 <sipa> ah
1741 2014-07-11 19:53:02 <sipa> you need some container type that can contain any type of message?
1742 2014-07-11 19:53:15 <andytoshi> yeah, that's easy because rust has algebraic sum types
1743 2014-07-11 19:53:19 <andytoshi> but it's not what i'm doing :P
1744 2014-07-11 19:53:27 <sipa> well, your problem :)
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1750 2014-07-11 19:58:23 <earlz> heh I love rust. I just wish it'd hit 1.0 already
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1752 2014-07-11 20:00:31 <jrick> rust enums are <3
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1754 2014-07-11 20:03:06 <tsutsu> I’m writing the cold-storage logic of a piece of Bitcoin exchange software; we currently export transactions in BIP0010 format and expect our operators to use Armory to sign them offline. I notice that as of the 0.92-pre version of Armory, BIP0010 .unsigned.tx files are no longer being recognized as signable.  Is there a new standard for offline unsigned transactions we should be targeting, or is Armory doing something nonstandard 
1755 2014-07-11 20:03:07 <tsutsu> weird?
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1757 2014-07-11 20:04:07 <sipa> nothing ever supported bip10 but armory afaik
1758 2014-07-11 20:04:39 <tsutsu> And now they don’t either, I guess.
1759 2014-07-11 20:06:57 counter has joined
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1761 2014-07-11 20:08:28 <tsutsu> Their new format looks like this, by the way: https://gist.github.com/tsutsu/58165273c9268a20f04a
1762 2014-07-11 20:08:36 <tsutsu> which is coming from: https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/blob/devel/armoryengine/Transaction.py#L1434-L1458
1763 2014-07-11 20:09:08 MolokoDeck has joined
1764 2014-07-11 20:10:23 <tsutsu> I’m unsure how we should go about targeting that… if it’s not specified anywhere, maybe it’d be best to just write a little ArmoryEngine-using daemon and ask it to generate these for us, rather than actually trying to track their now-completely-internal-to-them format
1765 2014-07-11 20:11:35 <CodeShark> CoinVault uses zero-length signatures for missing signatures, then removes the remaining zero-length signatures once enough actual signatures are added
1766 2014-07-11 20:11:46 <CodeShark> ciphrex.com
1767 2014-07-11 20:12:20 <CodeShark> the format makes it easy to support multisignature transactions
1768 2014-07-11 20:13:43 Emzy has joined
1769 2014-07-11 20:13:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm not even sure that armory ever quite supported it either.
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1771 2014-07-11 20:14:42 <CodeShark> you don't want to blank the entire txin scripts
1772 2014-07-11 20:14:57 <CodeShark> you only want to have placeholders for signatures so that signing devices can easily figure out what keys are being used
1773 2014-07-11 20:15:22 <CodeShark> and so you can support arbitrary scripts
1774 2014-07-11 20:16:12 <CodeShark> otherwise the signing device has to know the script a priori
1775 2014-07-11 20:16:15 <CodeShark> which isn't always the case
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1779 2014-07-11 20:17:43 <CodeShark> also, I propose we add a new set of checksig opcodes that incorporate the txout amount into the hash that gets signed :)
1780 2014-07-11 20:17:56 <CodeShark> so that it is unnecessary for the signing agent to be provided with full transactions it depends on
1781 2014-07-11 20:18:08 <tsutsu> hmm. I’m getting a [ “CoinVault” is damaged and can’t be opened. ] on OSX
1782 2014-07-11 20:18:13 <sipa> if we ever modify the scripting language, i think that's the first thing on the list
1783 2014-07-11 20:18:34 <sipa> (and we should)
1784 2014-07-11 20:18:35 <CodeShark> tsutsu, you might need to enable running unsigned apps
1785 2014-07-11 20:18:57 <tsutsu> it looks like it *is* signed, actually; it has a _CodeSignature inside the bundle
1786 2014-07-11 20:19:15 <CodeShark> yes, but I believe OS X is missing part of the certificate chain
1787 2014-07-11 20:19:34 <tsutsu> ah
1788 2014-07-11 20:19:43 <CodeShark> I need to fix that :p
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1791 2014-07-11 20:20:07 <tsutsu> is there a way to de-sign it?
1792 2014-07-11 20:20:18 <tsutsu> I’m not gonna be able to convince operators to switch off gatekeeper
1793 2014-07-11 20:20:51 mr_burdell has joined
1794 2014-07-11 20:20:54 <CodeShark> yeah, I should just not sign it at all and publish it
1795 2014-07-11 20:21:01 Soligor has joined
1796 2014-07-11 20:21:12 <CodeShark> until I get the full certificate chain
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1799 2014-07-11 20:21:40 <CodeShark> I believe it's codesign --remove-signature foo.app
1800 2014-07-11 20:24:23 <cronus> how come if my sync is at 295K blocks and current height is ~310K am I only 69% the way there according to progress.. shouldn’t it be more like 95% ?
1801 2014-07-11 20:24:28 <tsutsu> hmm. “CoinVault.app: unsupported type or version of signature”
1802 2014-07-11 20:24:40 <CodeShark> ok, let me remove the signature completely and republish it
1803 2014-07-11 20:25:19 <sipa> cronus: earlier blocks have much less transactions
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1805 2014-07-11 20:25:32 <cronus> oh didnt realize it takes into account size, duh.
1806 2014-07-11 20:25:34 <cronus> :) thanks
1807 2014-07-11 20:25:51 <sipa> cronus: also, transactions after the last checkpoint take way more time to verify (and this is also taken into account)
1808 2014-07-11 20:25:57 <cronus> oh ok
1809 2014-07-11 20:26:24 <tsutsu> (seems like it’d be more intuitive to report tx-height and tx-progress rather than block-height and block-progress as far as sync goes, then)
1810 2014-07-11 20:26:49 <Luke-Jr> tsutsu: tx height is the same as block height
1811 2014-07-11 20:26:54 <tsutsu> right
1812 2014-07-11 20:27:01 <tsutsu> you download by the block
1813 2014-07-11 20:27:03 <sipa> he means txcount and total tx estimate, i guess
1814 2014-07-11 20:27:13 <tsutsu> mhm
1815 2014-07-11 20:27:35 <sipa> which we have
1816 2014-07-11 20:27:56 <sipa> but they're not exposed as it's just estimates internally to estimate progress
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1837 2014-07-11 20:41:01 <CodeShark> tsutsu, try it now
1838 2014-07-11 20:41:08 <CodeShark> I removed the signature completely
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1841 2014-07-11 20:42:16 <tsutsu> CodeShark: Working fine now
1842 2014-07-11 20:42:21 <CodeShark> cool
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1854 2014-07-11 20:45:06 <cronus> shouldn’t 2GB ram vps be enough for bitcoind.. seems like im thrashing a bit
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1856 2014-07-11 20:45:47 <tsutsu> it should be fine in a stable state, but not while syncing
1857 2014-07-11 20:45:58 <cronus> oh ok, thought it might go a bit crazy when syncing
1858 2014-07-11 20:46:23 <cronus> seem to be stuck at block 296210 for last 5 minutes..not sure what happened
1859 2014-07-11 20:46:34 <CodeShark> check the log
1860 2014-07-11 20:47:19 <CodeShark> I've had issues where it continues downloading a bunch of orphaned (in the original sense, not in the side chain sense) blocks until it reaches the 750 limit
1861 2014-07-11 20:47:33 <cronus> yeah thats exactly what just happened
1862 2014-07-11 20:47:38 <cronus> its moving along now
1863 2014-07-11 20:47:39 <cronus> weird
1864 2014-07-11 20:48:18 <CodeShark> I think the sync code is a little broken
1865 2014-07-11 20:48:24 <cronus> heh
1866 2014-07-11 20:48:24 <CodeShark> my workaround for now is to restart it
1867 2014-07-11 20:48:32 <cronus> seemed to have gotten past it
1868 2014-07-11 20:48:42 <cronus> killing process and restarting isnt an issue?
1869 2014-07-11 20:48:50 blubberbop has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1870 2014-07-11 20:48:54 <CodeShark> as long as you exit gracefully
1871 2014-07-11 20:49:00 <CodeShark> kill -9 might not be such a good idea
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1873 2014-07-11 20:49:30 <cronus> heh
1874 2014-07-11 20:49:36 <cronus> ill just let it go, its moving along now
1875 2014-07-11 20:49:55 <CodeShark> SIGINT and SIGTERM are ok
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1972 2014-07-11 22:51:22 <sipa> tuesday morning we'll cross 1 yottahash of work in the bitcoin chain
1973 2014-07-11 22:51:36 <sipa> eastern time
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1975 2014-07-11 22:56:36 <sipa> also, early august we'll cross 2^80 hashes
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1987 2014-07-11 23:10:48 <sipa> to put in comparison: to do that with a core2 duo E6550, it would take the age of the universe
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1989 2014-07-11 23:18:30 <phantomcircuit> sipa, neat
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2002 2014-07-11 23:24:50 * gmaxwell thinks "beginning of time" sounds more impressive. :P
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2004 2014-07-11 23:25:58 <sipa> it's more than 1.21 gigayears at least
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2013 2014-07-11 23:33:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, lol i just noticed we dont properly handle send() only sending a partial message
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2043 2014-07-11 23:55:08 <cronus> my blockchain sync is ~93% and seems to have gotten stuck, this is what im seeing logs: http://pastebin.com/6LrWtf5j   what’s it mean?
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