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 119 2014-07-14 02:25:00 <super3> has any progress been made on gavin's proposed broadcast 0 confirm double spends?
 120 2014-07-14 02:25:34 <justanotheruser> super3: replace by fee?
 121 2014-07-14 02:25:46 <justanotheruser> I thought that was peter todds proposal
 122 2014-07-14 02:26:01 <super3> nah, its another one i think let me find the pull
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 127 2014-07-14 02:29:15 <super3> well i can't find it now
 128 2014-07-14 02:29:24 <super3> it must have been closed
 129 2014-07-14 02:29:32 <super3> its was there for months
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 134 2014-07-14 02:33:33 <kazcw> super3: there was a pull accepted in the end of june for limited doublespend relaying
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 146 2014-07-14 02:53:38 <super3> kazcw: oh ok thats were it went. thanks
 147 2014-07-14 02:54:18 <jgarzik> super3, it was merged, but there are several problems with it
 148 2014-07-14 02:54:32 <jgarzik> super3, why do you need it, if I may ask?
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 152 2014-07-14 02:56:37 <mr_burdell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3883
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 156 2014-07-14 02:57:50 <super3> i just found it particularly interesting, and wanted to follow its progress
 157 2014-07-14 02:57:56 <super3> mr_burdell: thank you
 158 2014-07-14 02:58:04 <mr_burdell> and this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4484
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 292 2014-07-14 05:56:10 <RainMan28> Is there a way for me to be able to change the transaction fee on Bitcoin Core on Windows? In the GUI options there's a setting which doesn't actually make any difference. I have tried setting the fee lower than 0.0001 BTC but it does not respect it.
 293 2014-07-14 06:02:29 ThomasV has joined
 294 2014-07-14 06:03:28 <sipa> it sets the fee per kilobyte
 295 2014-07-14 06:03:40 <RainMan28> hi sipa
 296 2014-07-14 06:04:01 <RainMan28> sipa: but even if I set it to 0 in the GUI, it still doesn't respect that
 297 2014-07-14 06:04:03 <sipa> and it will not go below the fee that would make it consider the transavction as spam
 298 2014-07-14 06:04:08 <RainMan28> I was trying 0.00005 BTC
 299 2014-07-14 06:04:38 <RainMan28> really? I was trying to send 0.5 BTC with 0.00005 and it still pops up saying it needs 0.0001 BTC
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 346 2014-07-14 07:05:11 <RainMan28> sipa: any idea why a 0.5 BTC transaction would be seen as spam?
 347 2014-07-14 07:10:05 <justanotheruser> RainMan28: did it have a fee? Did it have many days destroyed?
 348 2014-07-14 07:10:29 <RainMan28> hey justanotheruser i'm actually trying to set the fee in bitcoin core to be 0.00005 BTC
 349 2014-07-14 07:10:53 <RainMan28> but it still continues to want to charge 0.0001 BTC
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 352 2014-07-14 07:12:51 <justanotheruser> RainMan28: so it isn't propogating?
 353 2014-07-14 07:13:55 <RainMan28> justanotheruser: no i don't actually send it, it just prompts me that a fee of 0.0001 will be required
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 355 2014-07-14 07:14:03 <RainMan28> and i'm trying to see if i can have the fee changed to 0.00005 instead
 356 2014-07-14 07:14:21 <RainMan28> like why does the Bitcoin Core wallet GUI have a place to enter in a fee, but it doesn't actually respect that value
 357 2014-07-14 07:16:21 <kazcw> RainMan28: the fee is per KB. Has your wallet received a lot of small payments in the past? ~8 inputs could add up to a ~2KB transaction
 358 2014-07-14 07:17:23 <kazcw> there are also other factors, it would be impossible for the wallet to always pay exactly the fee you specify
 359 2014-07-14 07:17:55 <RainMan28> ah ok
 360 2014-07-14 07:18:24 <RainMan28> kazcw: if i didn't care about the speed it took to confirm, I couldn't set the fee to 0?
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 362 2014-07-14 07:19:32 <otila> RainMan28: what about using -txconfirmtarget=3 -paytxfee=0
 363 2014-07-14 07:20:26 <RainMan28> otila: if I type getinfo on the console, it shows me the tx fee is : "paytxfee": 0.00005000
 364 2014-07-14 07:20:51 <RainMan28> otila: but i'm trying to make it work via the GUI, not send transactions from console
 365 2014-07-14 07:21:19 <otila> you can give options for gui
 366 2014-07-14 07:21:55 <RainMan28> how?
 367 2014-07-14 07:22:07 <otila> -txconfirmtarget=<n>   If paytxfee is not set, include enough fee so transactions are confirmed on average within n blocks (default: 1)
 368 2014-07-14 07:22:28 <kazcw> otila: dynamic fee estimation is only in git. RainMan28: if you're running a released version rather than a recent testing version, those options won't be available
 369 2014-07-14 07:22:42 <RainMan28> kazcw: i'm on 0.9.2.1 on windows 7
 370 2014-07-14 07:23:00 <otila> I was going to mention that next :)
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 373 2014-07-14 07:23:12 <RainMan28> kazcw: I have 6 unspent outputs with 0.85 BTC total amongst them
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 376 2014-07-14 07:25:23 <RainMan28> so the biggest unspent is 0.194 BTC. If i try sending a transaction of 0.18, that should only be using that single unspent, but still the wallet wants to charge 0.0001
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 711 2014-07-14 11:58:06 <darkip> Hi, are there any issues in 0.9.2 that would mean that I should fork an older version / master ?
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 733 2014-07-14 12:16:26 <hearn> gmaxwell: thanks!
 734 2014-07-14 12:16:33 <hearn> darkip: not that i heard of, why?
 735 2014-07-14 12:16:41 <darkip> Thanks
 736 2014-07-14 12:16:46 <darkip> I'm forking for an alt
 737 2014-07-14 12:16:54 <darkip> But want to use the latest bitcoin code
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 739 2014-07-14 12:17:07 <hearn> well, you would need to keep up no matter what
 740 2014-07-14 12:17:10 <hearn> so best to use the latest code
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 750 2014-07-14 12:28:45 <SatoshiSon> Hi all https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=683704
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 866 2014-07-14 14:20:34 <xenog> hey people, I tried to discuss an issue with AddTimeData yesterday here, but I think World Cup final meant that nobody was really here then :)
 867 2014-07-14 14:21:28 <xenog> I sent issue #4521 to the GitHub issues for bitcoin, as well as a pull request, any questions please contact me and I'll gladly help
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 889 2014-07-14 14:44:51 <wumpus> xenog: seems to make sense to me
 890 2014-07-14 14:47:44 <xenog> wumpus: good, then I guess I didn't miss anything
 891 2014-07-14 14:48:15 <xenog> I don't code C++ on a daily basis, I do Haskell, which is very different, so a C++ dev should look at the fix and see if I may have missed something
 892 2014-07-14 14:49:53 <xenog> wumpus: if you are a C++ dev, that is the case then, and everything should be cool
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 894 2014-07-14 14:50:17 <xenog> wumpus: thanks for looking at it
 895 2014-07-14 14:53:51 <maaku> xenog: it'd be awesome to have another contributor to haskoin ;)
 896 2014-07-14 14:54:11 <wumpus> xenog: that bug went unfixed for pretty long, it makes me wonder if we really need the time offset functionality at all
 897 2014-07-14 14:54:33 <xenog> maaku: I started Haskoin, although I haven't been the one doing most of the coding
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 900 2014-07-14 14:56:23 <xenog> maaku: the idea was born after two or three pints in a pub in Zurich with Pieter Wuile, Mike Hearn, and Stefan Thomas, I was like: "it would be cool to make a Bitcoin client in Haskell", then my friend and colleague Philippe Laprade, who was very much into Haskell and functional programming, decided to execute on the idea, he had more time in his hands than I did at the time
 901 2014-07-14 14:57:10 <maaku> haha ok :)
 902 2014-07-14 14:57:40 <maaku> i've played with it, and want to use it in more projects
 903 2014-07-14 14:57:49 <maaku> hard to convince my coworkers to use haskell though :\
 904 2014-07-14 14:58:21 <xenog> maaku: we'll have a bitcoind-like daemon for the wallet with SPV-features pretty soon, with the functionality exposed via a JSON API, so no Haskell expertise will be required to use it
 905 2014-07-14 14:59:14 <xenog> wumpus: when I was reading that time offset code, I came to the list to ask for the rationale behind it
 906 2014-07-14 15:00:01 <xenog> NTP is a somewhat-centralized system, and it could be attacked to skew clocks and cause some havoc, which could have unforeseen consequences in the Bitcoin network
 907 2014-07-14 15:00:13 <maaku> xenog: open source?
 908 2014-07-14 15:00:20 <xenog> maaku: certainly
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 910 2014-07-14 15:00:49 <xenog> maaku: all code is released to the public domain
 911 2014-07-14 15:01:01 <xenog> unlicense.org
 912 2014-07-14 15:01:25 <xenog> we are strongly against intellectual monopoly
 913 2014-07-14 15:03:46 <wumpus> xenog: right, NTP (over network) could be confused, I don't think we should integrate that either
 914 2014-07-14 15:03:55 <xenog> we'll run a wallet from our own servers with some security protocols in place for people that would rather trust us to run the services, but the platform is public domain
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 918 2014-07-14 15:05:44 <xenog> wumpus, yes, NTP is currently a reliable way to synchronize system clocks, but since it can be gamed, we get that time offset kluge, which is not perfect, and it is still vulnerably to Sybil attacks
 919 2014-07-14 15:06:02 <xenog> wumpus: we argued at length in Haskoin whether to implement the time offset thing
 920 2014-07-14 15:06:16 <xenog> wumpus: we did not reach any conclusion, therefore we are going to implement it
 921 2014-07-14 15:07:24 <xenog> if only to achieve the same behaviour as bitcoind and not give core developers more reasons to mistrust multiple implementations out of concerns for different behaviours leading to chaos
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 926 2014-07-14 15:11:43 <xenog> by the way, maaku, if you want to take a potshot at doing something for haskoin, haskoin needs you, we still do not have payment protocol support ;-)
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 928 2014-07-14 15:13:11 <wumpus> xenog: well I'd think someone that can attack the global NTP infrastructure to mess with bitcoin nodes can also trivially sybil attack nodes to produce a time offset
 929 2014-07-14 15:14:00 <xenog> yes, but a sybil attack against nodes will lead to skewed clocks that may in the end agree about the network time anyways
 930 2014-07-14 15:14:15 <jtimon> xenog I prefer the term "intellectual poverty" ;)
 931 2014-07-14 15:15:23 <xenog> an attack against the NTP network and code that filters, say any peer that is not within five minutes, instead of the 70-minute gap that is currently allowed, could lead to isolated nodes that can then be sybil-attacked into believing certain transactions are valid with some people not noticing
 932 2014-07-14 15:16:03 <maaku> xenog: I may reach out to you privately. we're doing some wallet applications and evaluating arious options
 933 2014-07-14 15:16:08 <xenog> perhaps some of us running Bitcoin companies and servers should consider having GPS devices to get the time from the GPS satellite network, and/or precise hardware clocks set by hand
 934 2014-07-14 15:16:24 <xenog> maaku: that sounds great
 935 2014-07-14 15:16:28 <xenog> maaku: root@haskoin.com
 936 2014-07-14 15:16:35 <maaku> thanks
 937 2014-07-14 15:17:23 <maaku> are gps or glonass timestamps signed?
 938 2014-07-14 15:17:56 <xenog> maaku: I'm afraid not, but if they were tampered with, I believe we would notice a lot more quickly than an NTP attack
 939 2014-07-14 15:18:10 <maaku> well and there's no reason you can't do both
 940 2014-07-14 15:18:11 <sipa> yeah, the time adjustment makes me a bit unconfortable
 941 2014-07-14 15:18:35 <xenog> I'll start being in Alaska or Antarctica suddenly, and that is not right, because my servers are not in space or baloons
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 944 2014-07-14 15:18:51 <sipa> xenog: oh, that was you at the zurich meetup back then :)
 945 2014-07-14 15:18:58 <xenog> maaku: well, I don't know if they are signed
 946 2014-07-14 15:19:01 <sipa> xenog: in june 2012 iirc, right?
 947 2014-07-14 15:19:03 <xenog> sipa: yeah!
 948 2014-07-14 15:19:15 <xenog> sipa: yes, when you were visiting Google's offices
 949 2014-07-14 15:19:28 <xenog> sipa, before I moved to Ireland
 950 2014-07-14 15:19:47 <sipa> right
 951 2014-07-14 15:20:48 <hearn> maaku: you can get signed timestamps from various TSA's.
 952 2014-07-14 15:21:08 <maaku> hearn: TSA?
 953 2014-07-14 15:21:36 <xenog> hearn: I was looking for TSA on the Internet, but I could only get to Transport Security Administration, is that what you meant?
 954 2014-07-14 15:21:53 <sipa> time stamping authority?
 955 2014-07-14 15:21:54 <hearn> timestamping authority. (rfc 3161)
 956 2014-07-14 15:21:56 <hearn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping#Trusted_.28digital.29_timestamping
 957 2014-07-14 15:22:32 <hearn> most CA's run one
 958 2014-07-14 15:22:37 <hearn> (all?)
 959 2014-07-14 15:23:11 <hearn> so if we wanted a more robust time cross-check than NTP we could use those. they're exposed via HTTP
 960 2014-07-14 15:23:29 <maaku> hearn: oh ok. it was the ubiquitous over-the-air option that seemed interesting
 961 2014-07-14 15:23:37 <hearn> those servers tend to be synced to GPS
 962 2014-07-14 15:23:42 <hearn> but a direct path would have been nice yes
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 964 2014-07-14 15:23:45 <sipa> how about we just leave the responsibility of having a decently synced clock to the system operator?
 965 2014-07-14 15:23:49 <drizztbsd> do you trust CA :P
 966 2014-07-14 15:24:19 <xenog> I tend to agree with sipa that it is not bitcoin's job to keep time synced
 967 2014-07-14 15:24:33 <hearn> you can also get authenticated NTP (using hashes)
 968 2014-07-14 15:24:43 <hearn> well, i think that's what bitcoin already does, no?
 969 2014-07-14 15:24:57 <sipa> bitcoin has no ntp
 970 2014-07-14 15:25:11 <hearn> right. there was a TODO from satoshi to add it
 971 2014-07-14 15:25:15 <sipa> indeed
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 974 2014-07-14 15:28:58 <wumpus> every OS has NTP, no need to implement it in bitcoin
 975 2014-07-14 15:29:13 <wumpus> sipa: +1 for leaving the responsibility up to the system operator
 976 2014-07-14 15:29:39 <sipa> we could do some safety checking, similar to the current time adjustment, but just warn if it looks suspiciously high
 977 2014-07-14 15:29:42 <gmaxwell> hearn: authenticated NTP is mostly only used privacy (to the extent that its used at all). The only publically known servers I'm aware of are a pair run by NIST where you have to send them a dead-tree letter to get access.
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 979 2014-07-14 15:29:58 <wumpus> he can either use NTP, set the clock manually, or some super-precise hardware clock connected to the machine, better to encourage diversity here to avoid a single attack vector
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 981 2014-07-14 15:30:15 <gmaxwell> A reasonable thing to do, I think, is to query the local service to decide what it thinks the state of the world is— e.g. if it thinks its in sync then trust the local clock more strongly.
 982 2014-07-14 15:30:22 <sipa> even a few minutes off is not a problem for us
 983 2014-07-14 15:30:32 <sipa> what local service? :o
 984 2014-07-14 15:30:51 <gmaxwell> NTP (see the code in gnunet)
 985 2014-07-14 15:30:51 <sipa> does every OS run a ntpd now?
 986 2014-07-14 15:31:00 <kuzetsa> yeah, what gmaxwell is about right -- authenticated NTP is mostly only used by government sponsored institutitons (military and metrology authorities)
 987 2014-07-14 15:31:02 <sipa> seems i'm indeed running one
 988 2014-07-14 15:31:13 <kuzetsa> and in the 'states, NIST and USNO are the main ones for that.
 989 2014-07-14 15:31:16 <sipa> i remember 10 years ago i had to configure it manually
 990 2014-07-14 15:31:23 <gmaxwell> (or likewise have a setting e.g. localclock=1 that basically clamps the offset adjustments to 10 minutes or something small, — risk of breaking your node if your time is a bit wrong)
 991 2014-07-14 15:31:30 <wumpus> I doubt windows runs ntpd specifically, they use some NTP implemention of course
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 993 2014-07-14 15:31:51 <gmaxwell> yea, windows doesn't. I believe everything else does. All the gnu/linux distros set it up by default.
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 995 2014-07-14 15:32:02 <wumpus> my ubuntu doesn't have ntpd running either
 996 2014-07-14 15:32:08 <gmaxwell> wild
 997 2014-07-14 15:32:23 <gmaxwell> In any case thus the reason to detect if its happy.
 998 2014-07-14 15:32:24 <hearn> seems like my mac does
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1000 2014-07-14 15:32:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: feel free to port/copy/steal/... some gnunet code then :)
1001 2014-07-14 15:33:01 <sipa> but meh
1002 2014-07-14 15:33:06 <sipa> do we really need to bother?
1003 2014-07-14 15:33:14 Gyps has joined
1004 2014-07-14 15:33:15 <sipa> we have very light synchronization requirements
1005 2014-07-14 15:33:39 <sipa> you could be an hour off and survive, i guess...
1006 2014-07-14 15:33:42 <gmaxwell> we're due some timing cleanup, but I'll worry about it. I've wanted to work on it for a while but haven't had time and should have some soon.
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1008 2014-07-14 15:33:52 <maaku> i thought windows did npt sync with msft's servers?
1009 2014-07-14 15:33:53 <xenog> gmaxwell: I believe Windows does run NTP
1010 2014-07-14 15:34:03 <xenog> Ubuntu synchronizes upon network connection via ntpdate
1011 2014-07-14 15:34:04 <wumpus> windows obviously runs ntp, but not ntpd
1012 2014-07-14 15:34:10 <gmaxwell> xenog: sntp normally but it's just a periodic set so it doesn't know if its right or not.
1013 2014-07-14 15:34:11 <maaku> ah
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1015 2014-07-14 15:34:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: right now there are some annoying attacks where you push a miner and a users clocks in opposite directions to partition them.
1016 2014-07-14 15:34:53 <gmaxwell> they're not terribly concerning but should be closed.
1017 2014-07-14 15:35:18 <sipa> well yes, which is a problem with the current network-based time offset guessing
1018 2014-07-14 15:35:21 <kuzetsa> wumpus: technically, windows time protocol supports the proprietary "windows time" protocol relating to how domain controllers work... but also does SNTP, yeah.
1019 2014-07-14 15:35:28 <sipa> but is it a problem if we just trust local systems?
1020 2014-07-14 15:35:33 <gmaxwell> we only need to allow large corrections because it's _very_ common for hosts to have the wrong timezone (e.g. windows hosts)
1021 2014-07-14 15:35:43 <kuzetsa> hmm, I mangled that grammar, but I think my point survived mostly O_O
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1023 2014-07-14 15:36:15 <gmaxwell> e.g. people set their timezone to something off, then set the local time to the local time, so they're off by an hour. Also +/- summer time.
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1025 2014-07-14 15:36:43 <kuzetsa> I'm certain that's not a windows-specific issue
1026 2014-07-14 15:36:50 <hearn> we did an experiment to measure this once at google
1027 2014-07-14 15:36:52 <kuzetsa> ANY user who manually sets their clock does that
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1029 2014-07-14 15:37:05 <hearn> the degree to which people are in the wrong timezone seems to be huge and varies around the world
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1031 2014-07-14 15:37:17 <gmaxwell> we get people complaining about it on IRC with non-trivial frequency when they end up outside of the window bitcoin-qt will adjust.
1032 2014-07-14 15:37:37 <wumpus> in that case it can just complain that the time/timezone is wrong
1033 2014-07-14 15:37:49 <xenog> well, the bitcoind code will accept if you are one hour off, but not more than 70 minutes, at which point it displays a warning, and sets the offset to zero, but I am not sure it actually disconnects from the network, although it stops updating the offset
1034 2014-07-14 15:37:57 <gmaxwell> in any case, if the local host thinks it's right we should just make the network adjustment small... closes off most of the obnoxious stuff without making the software burdensom for joe-user.
1035 2014-07-14 15:38:12 <wumpus> I don't see it as a responsibility of bitcoind to correct the user's time
1036 2014-07-14 15:38:12 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I can show you some logs, this is really hard for the users.
1037 2014-07-14 15:38:26 <gmaxwell> "It's right, what the f@#$@ is wrong with you!  I told you my time is right!"
1038 2014-07-14 15:38:42 <gmaxwell> (dramatization)
1039 2014-07-14 15:38:45 <kuzetsa> :)
1040 2014-07-14 15:39:09 <sipa> we'll just create a separate p2p network for each timezone
1041 2014-07-14 15:39:15 <sipa> and use local time in the protocol
1042 2014-07-14 15:39:18 <kuzetsa> O_O
1043 2014-07-14 15:39:23 <sipa> at startup you connect to all, and you see what sticks :p
1044 2014-07-14 15:39:26 <sipa> (j/k)
1045 2014-07-14 15:39:28 <kuzetsa> sipa: satire / sarcasm?
1046 2014-07-14 15:39:30 <gmaxwell> heh, in any case. pulls to review.
1047 2014-07-14 15:39:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell: you have a point, but there are so many things that can be wrongly configured on a computer system that may be frustrating
1048 2014-07-14 15:40:14 <wumpus> by adding our own layer of guesses and compensations on top, it may become more frustrating instead of less
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1052 2014-07-14 15:41:06 <wumpus> (especially if there is a small undetected bug somewhere in barely tested code, as turns out to be in the current time handling code...)
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1054 2014-07-14 15:44:25 <gmaxwell> well thats a reason that the nits we were aware of haven't been fixed.
1055 2014-07-14 15:44:52 <kuzetsa> *cough*  #2990
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1058 2014-07-14 15:45:54 <wumpus> so it may be best solved by adding a clear error message, in which wrong time, the timezone and summer/winter time are mentioned as possible reasons for the deviation
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1060 2014-07-14 15:47:09 <kuzetsa> yeah, and some debug-transparency showing which & how many, or otherwise specifically which datapoints are being used to decide the time is suspected to be wrong
1061 2014-07-14 15:47:45 <kuzetsa> I've never used the debug logging features to see if "wrong time" details show up in the logs or not
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1063 2014-07-14 15:49:18 <kuzetsa> transparency and being able to examine datapoints is better than guessing and making assumptions and then generically reporting the common assumptions to the user
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1065 2014-07-14 15:49:33 <xenog> I'd argue that you should merge my pull request anyway, even if you later remove the code, because if you want to revert, you revert to a version that works
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1067 2014-07-14 15:51:08 <kuzetsa> xenog: this one? --> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4526
1068 2014-07-14 15:51:23 <xenog> yup
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1076 2014-07-14 15:52:38 <gmaxwell> please don't go removing time corrections right now. :)  (but I'm all for adding gui on time nagging!)
1077 2014-07-14 15:53:15 <dgenr8> Getting an accurate absolute time is hard.  But for some uses it is possible to require only that local clock runs at an accurate RATE over the periods involved.
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1079 2014-07-14 15:53:51 <jaakkos> people with wrong timezone on their phone makes it fun to configure TOTP authentication in your company :(
1080 2014-07-14 15:53:53 <kuzetsa> dgenr8: yes, frequency stability is unlikely to drift by more than 5 minutes per day even in the worst conditions.
1081 2014-07-14 15:54:38 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: computer osc have such large frequency errors ... alas.
1082 2014-07-14 15:54:50 <kuzetsa> jaakkos: hehe, yeah. I use TOTP on like almost everything which supports it :)
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1085 2014-07-14 15:56:42 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: I can't tell if you were being sarastic or not --- I've usually seen in my own observations that an undisciplined clock drift of over a thousand PPM is VERY rare
1086 2014-07-14 15:57:16 <dgenr8> If your clock runs fast or slow, you'll have to get absolute adjustments terribly often to make up for it in any absolute scheme.
1087 2014-07-14 15:57:54 <gwillen> I had a computer with very irritatingly large clock drift once, but it was nowhere near 5 minutes per day
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1089 2014-07-14 15:58:26 <kuzetsa> gwillen: I get irritated if the drift is even 1 second per month
1090 2014-07-14 15:58:43 <gwillen> mine was on the order of double-digit minutes per month
1091 2014-07-14 15:58:46 <gwillen> it was irritating as hell
1092 2014-07-14 15:58:51 * kuzetsa nods
1093 2014-07-14 15:59:09 <gwillen> (the actual problem, of course, being that my ntpd was not fixing this, and eventually I fixed whatever the configuration issue was, and then it did.)
1094 2014-07-14 15:59:23 <kuzetsa> my "house clock" (frequency reference) has a stability measured in parts per trillion
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1099 2014-07-14 16:02:10 <kuzetsa> at some point I plan to resume work on building one capable of keeping in phase matched down at the femtoseconds scale... it's just not really needed at this time since I'm not doing anything crazy with signal processing or measurement in over a year. </offtopic>
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1109 2014-07-14 16:08:51 <kuzetsa> it occurs to me pool.ntp.org allows vendor zones for things like linux distros
1110 2014-07-14 16:09:32 <kuzetsa> we could see about adding an SNTP implementation to bitcoin and maybe operate a "bitcoin" vendor zone under pool.ntp.org
1111 2014-07-14 16:09:52 <kuzetsa> just a thought
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1114 2014-07-14 16:11:22 <ahmed_> anyone have any ideas why bitcoind would just die?
1115 2014-07-14 16:12:02 <jrick> is it intentional or an oversight that the codes used by bitcoind for the reject messages don't match those in BIP0061?
1116 2014-07-14 16:12:35 <jrick> for example, 0x12 (reject duplicate) is used for duplicate txs or double spends by mempool, but the bip says it's for duplicate version messages
1117 2014-07-14 16:13:24 <hearn> it's probably bugs
1118 2014-07-14 16:13:27 <hearn> i mean, bugs in the spec :)
1119 2014-07-14 16:16:13 <jrick> spec == bip or spec == reference implementation?
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1125 2014-07-14 16:18:02 <hearn> bip, i guess, as that's easier to change than the code now :)
1126 2014-07-14 16:18:05 <hearn> ask gavinandresen
1127 2014-07-14 16:18:48 <jrick> there might be others, haven't gone through them all, but that's the one that I noticed
1128 2014-07-14 16:19:37 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: we could call it "compromise_this_totally_unathenticated_service_to_goof_with_bitcoin_and_only_bitcoin.pool.ntp.org"
1129 2014-07-14 16:19:49 <jrick> actually now that I look closer, the bip does use some of the same codes for different situations
1130 2014-07-14 16:19:59 <jrick> so it might just be missing from that table for the tx reject reasons
1131 2014-07-14 16:20:06 <hearn> ah ok
1132 2014-07-14 16:20:10 <sipa> i think the whole idea of reject codes is silly
1133 2014-07-14 16:20:25 <sipa> it's not like another implementaion can act upon them
1134 2014-07-14 16:20:30 <sipa> it's purely for debugging
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1136 2014-07-14 16:20:46 <hearn> and debugging is silly because ... ?
1137 2014-07-14 16:21:00 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: drift on the order of 1000 ppm on normal PC server hardware is pretty typical in my expirence, never mind that 0.5 ppm tcxos cost like a buck.
1138 2014-07-14 16:21:13 <sipa> hearn: it's not
1139 2014-07-14 16:21:27 <sipa> but i would prefer just a string messages "you're being disconnected because X"
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1142 2014-07-14 16:21:51 <sipa> as for seeing why a block or tx isn't accepted, look at debug.log
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1145 2014-07-14 16:22:14 <hearn> i come across cases quite frequently where someone says "my app doesn't work" and i say "what does debug.log say" and they say .... well you can guess what they say next
1146 2014-07-14 16:22:29 <hearn> not to mention that debugging problem reports from logs submitted by users is infinitely easier with reject messages
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1148 2014-07-14 16:25:58 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: I'm not sure how you define "normal" PC server hardware, but the sort of frequency corrections I see in NTP are rarely over 50ppm
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1150 2014-07-14 16:27:01 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: do you mean anonymous grey boxes or actual server hardware from reputable server vendors?
1151 2014-07-14 16:27:15 <hearn> sipa: in LastCommonAncestor() is it ever valid to hit the return null at the bottom? surely they'll always have the genesis block at least?
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1154 2014-07-14 16:29:30 <dgenr8> hearn: what they say next is nothing.  That's when they disappear, right?
1155 2014-07-14 16:29:36 <hearn> heh
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1159 2014-07-14 16:32:24 <dgenr8> sipa: in another project I have taken that tack ... issuing only string errors and no codes.  it's not popular with clients but it's really expecting too much for them to have specialized error handling for different codes.  when something fails, it's the string message that usually gets shown in a stack trace and leads to some action
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1163 2014-07-14 16:33:10 <dgenr8> not to question all the intricate exception type hierarchies out there
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1173 2014-07-14 16:43:10 <sipa> dgenr8: my point is that nobody will or should do handling of specific codes
1174 2014-07-14 16:43:15 <sipa> dgenr8: it's only for debugging
1175 2014-07-14 16:43:25 <sipa> if you get them, something is wrong
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1183 2014-07-14 16:46:15 <hearn> sipa: or it can be used to detect buggy remote nodes, reimplementations that aren't compliant, etc
1184 2014-07-14 16:46:23 <hearn> it's good practice to have error codes. what would the web be without 404 :)
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1189 2014-07-14 16:49:13 <hearn> sipa: do we actually distinguish between BLOCK_VALID_CHAIN and BLOCK_VALID_SCRIPTS? is this due to multi-threaded signature checking ?
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1193 2014-07-14 16:51:12 <hearn> oh nooooo. did github really just eat my review comments
1194 2014-07-14 16:51:13 <sipa> hearn: we don't currently distinguish between those
1195 2014-07-14 16:51:21 <hearn> :( :( :(
1196 2014-07-14 16:51:24 <sipa> yeah, commit/line/change comments randomly disappear
1197 2014-07-14 16:51:30 <hearn> gah
1198 2014-07-14 16:51:33 <hearn> github sucks
1199 2014-07-14 16:51:33 <sipa> if you want them permanent, comment on the PR itself
1200 2014-07-14 16:51:35 <sipa> it hate it
1201 2014-07-14 16:51:40 <sipa> anyway, thanks for the review!
1202 2014-07-14 16:51:40 <hearn> did you get any emails from my comments?
1203 2014-07-14 16:51:42 <sipa> yes
1204 2014-07-14 16:51:44 <hearn> ah good
1205 2014-07-14 16:51:47 <hearn> well that's what matters
1206 2014-07-14 16:51:51 <gwillen> it's not random
1207 2014-07-14 16:52:06 <gwillen> any time you force-push an updated version
1208 2014-07-14 16:52:06 <hearn> the disk-fill attack DoS fix is especially nice
1209 2014-07-14 16:52:12 <gwillen> the line comments on the old version get eaten
1210 2014-07-14 16:52:13 <sipa> gwillen: no it's not
1211 2014-07-14 16:52:15 <hearn> gwillen: in this case i just made the comments, and now i can't find them
1212 2014-07-14 16:52:18 <gwillen> oh :-\
1213 2014-07-14 16:52:21 <hearn> like, literally a few minutes ago
1214 2014-07-14 16:52:24 <sipa> gwillen: there are still comments left on lines that were rebased since
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1216 2014-07-14 16:52:40 <sipa> hearn: i've responded quickly to many of your comments, but i'll make changes to the code too
1217 2014-07-14 16:52:56 <sipa> (i really like comments of the form "i don't understand this, explain it better in the code")
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1221 2014-07-14 16:55:31 <hearn> i'm very good at saying "i don't understand this" :-)
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1226 2014-07-14 16:59:02 <dermiste> hey folks, on the protocol spec page (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification)
1227 2014-07-14 16:59:25 <dermiste> in the version message I see a 64-bit timestamp
1228 2014-07-14 16:59:47 <dermiste> and in the address datatype I see a 32-bit timestamp
1229 2014-07-14 16:59:51 <dermiste> is this normal ?
1230 2014-07-14 17:00:16 <dermiste> on a side note, is this page authoritative on the protocol state ?
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1233 2014-07-14 17:02:15 <hearn> sipa: i wonder if we should take out BLOCK_VALID_SCRIPTS if we don't use it. if in future those states become usefully separate it can always be added back in
1234 2014-07-14 17:02:29 <hearn> dermiste: the protocol is a bit weird in places. Core C++ is the only authoritative reference
1235 2014-07-14 17:03:56 <dermiste> hearn: ok, thank you
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1304 2014-07-14 18:15:55 <jcrubino> what guides are available to manually create a block for submission ?
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1462 2014-07-14 21:04:26 <jokoon> hi
1463 2014-07-14 21:05:23 <jokoon> can I use the bitcoin protocol to do some decentralized network programming ?
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1467 2014-07-14 21:10:36 <lianj> sipa: max possible m-of-n is 20-of-20 right?
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1469 2014-07-14 21:12:23 <sipa> lianj: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/23893/what-are-the-limits-of-m-and-n-in-m-of-n-multisig-addresses/28092#28092
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1473 2014-07-14 21:15:39 <lianj> sipa: jesus so much rules :D
1474 2014-07-14 21:15:47 <lianj> but thanks
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