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 205 2014-07-15 03:46:10 <andytoshi> CodeShark: fyi, if all you are doing is unverified utxoset updates, `getdata` messages ARE the bottleneck
 206 2014-07-15 03:46:31 CodeShark has left ()
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 208 2014-07-15 03:47:42 <CodeShark> andytoshi: hmm, I might then try fetching a bunch and queueing them up on my end
 209 2014-07-15 03:48:00 <CodeShark> it might improve the sync performance of some of my stuff
 210 2014-07-15 03:48:09 <andytoshi> i'll let you know with my rust code
 211 2014-07-15 03:48:26 <andytoshi> it's possible, though IMO pretty unlikely that my localhost bandwidth is just terrib/le
 212 2014-07-15 03:48:30 <andytoshi> or my bitcoind is slow
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 215 2014-07-15 03:49:53 <andytoshi> but i'm looking at like 35-40 milliseconds per block even when i do nothing but throw them away..
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 220 2014-07-15 03:51:21 <CodeShark> queueing would have been much easier had the height been included in the block header :)
 221 2014-07-15 03:51:42 <andytoshi> ah, my blockchain structure keeps track of height
 222 2014-07-15 03:51:57 <CodeShark> yes, but that requires hashing and searching
 223 2014-07-15 03:52:11 <CodeShark> I'm talking about the most barebones queue structure
 224 2014-07-15 03:52:23 <andytoshi> ah, yeah
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 228 2014-07-15 03:53:19 <andytoshi> for now i'm gonna start by doing nothing with the blocks, just grabbing 500 at once, to see how much a can cut down the network speed (again, maybe my system is just awful and there's nothing i can do)
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 235 2014-07-15 04:07:04 <ahmed_> anyone here know why bitcoind keeps dying randomly?
 236 2014-07-15 04:08:17 <danielpbarron> how often?
 237 2014-07-15 04:08:58 <ahmed_> danielpbarron: every few hours
 238 2014-07-15 04:09:20 * danielpbarron doesn't know then (sorry)
 239 2014-07-15 04:09:45 <ahmed_> its cool.
 240 2014-07-15 04:09:50 <danielpbarron> mine halted quite a few times as I caught up with the blockchain, but not nearly that often
 241 2014-07-15 04:09:51 <andytoshi> CodeShark: ok, with 1-block getdatas i was getting something like 20 blocks/sec... with 500-block getdatas it is something like 3-5000 (fast enough that i can't keep time with a stopwatch anymore)
 242 2014-07-15 04:10:33 <ahmed_> danielpbarron: yeah mines syncing just now
 243 2014-07-15 04:10:43 <ahmed_> ill see if it stops when its fully synced
 244 2014-07-15 04:10:54 <danielpbarron> and i'm probably running a different version from you, so my insight is probably not valuable
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 247 2014-07-15 04:10:56 <andytoshi> now comes the fun part, updating the utxo set without requiring the node to retrieve all the blocks in the original order..
 248 2014-07-15 04:11:19 <ahmed_> yup true
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 253 2014-07-15 04:20:15 <andytoshi> CodeShark: with `block`-message reordering and utxoset updates, i'm still at 1000-1500 blocks/sec. i was at 20. this is huge
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 255 2014-07-15 04:22:25 <andytoshi> ah, i start slowing down past block 100k, only a few hundred blocks per sec and my ram usage starts to spike
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 259 2014-07-15 04:30:48 <CodeShark> you should do headers-first sync :)
 260 2014-07-15 04:30:53 <CodeShark> oh wait
 261 2014-07-15 04:30:58 <CodeShark> you already have the headers, yes?
 262 2014-07-15 04:31:31 <CodeShark> yeah, the first 130k blocks or so are tiny
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 277 2014-07-15 04:46:10 <sipa> ;;nethahs
 278 2014-07-15 04:46:11 <gribble> Error: "nethahs" is not a valid command.
 279 2014-07-15 04:46:14 <sipa> ;;nethash
 280 2014-07-15 04:46:15 <gribble> 126306787.09
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 290 2014-07-15 04:55:45 <sipa> ;;diff
 291 2014-07-15 04:55:45 <gribble> 1.733631697850783E10
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 314 2014-07-15 05:34:31 <iwilcox> Does -loadblocks need to seek or will it accept a pipe?
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 344 2014-07-15 06:12:46 <wumpus> iwilcox: it seeks
 345 2014-07-15 06:13:20 <wumpus> I don't think it necessarily would need to, but I remember from the code that it does right now
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 347 2014-07-15 06:15:11 <iwilcox> 'k, thanks.  Previous descriptions of it made me think it might just be loaded entirely serially.  Was just trying to work around lack of space for both the blk*.dat and the bootstrap on the same box, but I've moved physical drives around now.
 348 2014-07-15 06:15:34 <wumpus> you can just move around the blk*.dat in that case and do -reindex
 349 2014-07-15 06:15:50 <wumpus> no need to bootstrap if you have blk files from another instance
 350 2014-07-15 06:16:18 <iwilcox> No, I mean it'll add blk*.dat as I import
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 353 2014-07-15 06:17:12 <iwilcox> I did have some old blks but managed to hose them by running into some odd ext4 bug :(
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 355 2014-07-15 06:18:49 <iwilcox> Did someone tell BlueMattBot my IRC nick or has it become fully sentient? :)
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 403 2014-07-15 07:28:13 <wumpus> sipa: this one's sneaky https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4533/files , something could be said for renaming Invalid to MarkInvalid, so that the intent is more clear
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 413 2014-07-15 07:46:29 <wumpus> or rather, SetDoS, SetInvalid, SetError, etc, and then make sure all the query methods have Is*, for example CorruptionPossible() lacks it at the moment
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 416 2014-07-15 07:47:40 <wumpus> so right now from reading the code it's unclear whether CorruptionPossible *sets* corruption possible flag, or reads it :)
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 422 2014-07-15 07:58:46 <kazcw> the whole CValidationState thing is awkward, functions with 4 or 5 optional arguments that always return false. it's a family of exceptions turned inside out.
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 429 2014-07-15 08:05:35 <wumpus> in a way, yes, but a lot could be improved with just method renaming
 430 2014-07-15 08:06:47 <wumpus> I think the object itself is clear, it's just a state object, validation failures are not exceptional so they shouldn't be exceptions
 431 2014-07-15 08:07:43 <wumpus> hehe if only c++ allowed for a ? in method names, you could have CorruptionPossible?(), Valid?() *ducks*
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 433 2014-07-15 08:08:22 <kazcw> every state.DoS or state.Invalid exits the function returning false
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 435 2014-07-15 08:09:08 <wumpus> that's just so you can write return state.DoS(bla) instead of state.DoS(bla); return false;
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 438 2014-07-15 08:10:14 <kazcw> yeah, but I mean whenever state.DoS or state.Invalid is called the caller returns early at the point of calling the state function
 439 2014-07-15 08:10:20 <kazcw> which is what exceptions do
 440 2014-07-15 08:10:21 <wumpus> which takes some getting used to; initially I was also confused by things like return InitError("The printer is on fire") etc
 441 2014-07-15 08:11:56 <iwilcox> wumpus: Let's rewrite it in Lisp so we can have '?'; it's one thing I really like about Lisps :)
 442 2014-07-15 08:13:47 <iwilcox> Does seem a bit of a crime that there isn't a Lisp implementation.  Haskell, Go, Python, Ruby, Java..
 443 2014-07-15 08:14:28 HostFat has joined
 444 2014-07-15 08:14:31 <kazcw> ha, I wish I had time for a lisp implementation. I actually started on one a while back
 445 2014-07-15 08:14:44 <jgarzik> car(car(cdr(cdr(first(last(zoom))))))
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 447 2014-07-15 08:15:46 <jgarzik> Any language with keywords "third" and "seventh" is terminally broken.
 448 2014-07-15 08:16:07 <Belxjander> jgarzik: what language is that?
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 451 2014-07-15 08:16:20 <HostFat> I'm not sure if this is off-topic, but is there someone that wants 0.5 BTC to fix this to help Sirius? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130137.msg7846334#msg7846334
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 453 2014-07-15 08:17:01 <HostFat> he says that he needs someone familiar with bitcoin-qt code:
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 474 2014-07-15 08:53:27 <wumpus> ahmed_: what version?
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 476 2014-07-15 08:54:10 <wumpus> ahmed_: anything in debug.log when the crashes happen?
 477 2014-07-15 08:59:22 <rubensayshi> if I want to set the change address of a TX to the original address (yes bad I know, I want it anyway xD) using bitcoind RPC is my only option to use create/sign/send rawtransaction?
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 480 2014-07-15 09:01:10 <iwilcox> Maybe with care you could consume the entire UTXO and give the explicit list of addresses with sendmany
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 483 2014-07-15 09:02:49 <rubensayshi> yea that was the other alternative I had in my mind, guess that's slightly easier than creating the raw TX, thanks :)
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 508 2014-07-15 09:33:10 <wumpus> iwilcox: that'd be a very brittle way to do things, there's no way to force sendmany to not generate a change address if it happens to not agree with you about the total (due to fees or some bug on either side)
 509 2014-07-15 09:33:13 <wumpus> raw transactions is the way to go
 510 2014-07-15 09:34:00 <iwilcox> I didn't give it much thought since it's probably something Evil anyway if it's re-using addresses.
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 691 2014-07-15 10:46:30 <sipa> iwilcox: i remember at least trying to make it support pipes
 692 2014-07-15 10:47:48 <sipa> wumpus: there's some gcc attribute to make thr compiler complain if you don't use a return valure
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 696 2014-07-15 10:54:19 <hearn> __attribute__((warn_unused)) i think
 697 2014-07-15 10:54:25 <hearn> an excellent feature indeed
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 699 2014-07-15 10:54:28 <hearn> i wish java had it
 700 2014-07-15 10:55:09 <drizztbsd> Usually I use -Wall -W etc, so it's by default
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 703 2014-07-15 11:00:33 <sipa> also, 15 more blocks until we reach 10^24 total chain work
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 705 2014-07-15 11:04:36 <hearn> there should be a "work party"
 706 2014-07-15 11:05:39 <sipa> the hottest party on the block
 707 2014-07-15 11:09:28 <sipa> ;;blocks
 708 2014-07-15 11:09:29 <gribble> 310830
 709 2014-07-15 11:09:38 <sipa> 14!
 710 2014-07-15 11:10:53 <hearn> haha
 711 2014-07-15 11:11:05 <hearn> well played, sir, well played
 712 2014-07-15 11:11:34 * jaromil prepares for cocktails
 713 2014-07-15 11:14:56 <Emcy> block party?
 714 2014-07-15 11:15:23 <Emcy> what so special about it anyway
 715 2014-07-15 11:15:37 <Emcy> oh we totally could have broken sha1, if we wanted to!
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 717 2014-07-15 11:16:48 <sipa> that'll take 2^80, which we'll reach in 3 weeks
 718 2014-07-15 11:17:33 <sipa> (well, you more like 3*2^80 to have reasonable certainty, but sha1 is a lot vheaper than double sha256...)
 719 2014-07-15 11:17:53 <hearn> isn't 2^80 pretty much the record for the most work done in a crypto problem ever?
 720 2014-07-15 11:18:02 <sipa> i assume so
 721 2014-07-15 11:18:30 <hearn> actually, i'm pretty much the most work done in a crypto problem ever is me trying to fix these goddamn hd wallet unit tests :)
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 723 2014-07-15 11:19:03 <sipa> "searched through an 80-bit search space" sounds more impressive than "one yobihash!" to me, though
 724 2014-07-15 11:19:20 <hearn> yeah that's cuz your weird. most people would take the yobihash
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 726 2014-07-15 11:19:58 <sipa> more blocks to hash have you, hmm?
 727 2014-07-15 11:20:26 <sipa> when 2^80 hashes you have done, look so good you will not
 728 2014-07-15 11:20:52 <Emcy> what about gimps or distributed.net
 729 2014-07-15 11:20:56 <Emcy> how far past them are we
 730 2014-07-15 11:22:28 <hearn> ah, coding in the sun. this is the life ....
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 735 2014-07-15 11:25:21 <sipa> Emcy: they've been working on cracking a 72-bit key since december 2002...
 736 2014-07-15 11:26:13 <Emcy> lol
 737 2014-07-15 11:26:22 <Emcy> sounds pointless
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 740 2014-07-15 11:27:59 <hearn> right. finding arbitrary hash partial pre-images is a much more useful endevour ... ;)
 741 2014-07-15 11:29:06 <Emcy> i did 5000 s@h units on a pentium 2666 back in the day
 742 2014-07-15 11:29:08 <Emcy> how about that
 743 2014-07-15 11:29:21 <Emcy> thats 266
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 746 2014-07-15 11:33:01 <hearn> sigh. a fully indeed authenticated utxo set on every node would simplify spv wallet programming soooo much
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 753 2014-07-15 11:45:37 <Emcy> are you still trying to solve the spv fees problem
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 757 2014-07-15 11:46:59 <hearn> god no. that's next years fun
 758 2014-07-15 11:47:07 <hearn> i'm still digesting HD wallets
 759 2014-07-15 11:47:24 <hearn> was just fixing the way we handle lookahead zones and auto-advance
 760 2014-07-15 11:47:36 <hearn> still more work to go there. the guy who wrote the original code didn't get it quite right
 761 2014-07-15 11:47:55 <Emcy> hd wallets has been stanardised right
 762 2014-07-15 11:48:02 <Emcy> so implementation is left
 763 2014-07-15 11:48:18 <hearn> it was standardised about 15 months ago, iirc
 764 2014-07-15 11:48:30 <hearn> these things take a long time to get implemented everywhere
 765 2014-07-15 11:49:02 <hearn> though partly this is because bitcoinj calls "hd wallets" not only the new key derivation algorithm but also not reusing addresses in general, allowing wallet cloning, mnemonic codes and a bunch of other things
 766 2014-07-15 11:49:22 <hearn> we could cheat and just change the way a new key is derived, say the wallet is now HD and call it a day
 767 2014-07-15 11:49:27 <hearn> but then people wouldn't get all the benefits
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 770 2014-07-15 11:50:02 <Emcy> oh nice the mnemonic is is
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 772 2014-07-15 11:50:14 <Emcy> thought there was some patent bullshit on that
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 868 2014-07-15 14:07:16 <sipa> ;;nethash
 869 2014-07-15 14:07:17 <gribble> 125883043.515
 870 2014-07-15 14:07:30 <Anduck> is there a hd wallet fork of bitcoin core?
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 879 2014-07-15 14:18:58 <wumpus> Anduck: no, just use another wallet
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 884 2014-07-15 14:22:03 <Anduck> hmm.. i'd like to use bitcoind json-rpc
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 887 2014-07-15 14:23:56 <kachi8> _
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 889 2014-07-15 14:24:45 <maaku> Anduck: pull requests welcome
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 899 2014-07-15 14:30:54 <gmaxwell> iwilcox: you get stuck on that pullreq you were working on? If you need a hand let me know.
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 903 2014-07-15 14:32:36 <kachi8> Help is appriciated . if $you #will
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 908 2014-07-15 14:37:29 <ahmed_> wumpus: v 0.9.2
 909 2014-07-15 14:37:36 <ahmed_> and nothing in the debug log
 910 2014-07-15 14:37:53 <wumpus> ok weird...
 911 2014-07-15 14:38:23 <wumpus> can you run it in gdb to get a backtrace when a crash happens?
 912 2014-07-15 14:38:26 <ahmed_> the fact that my bitcoind datadir is symlinked to another drive shouldnt be doing it right?
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 914 2014-07-15 14:39:07 <wumpus> that normally shouldn't be a problem, although not all file systems work with leveldb/berkeleydb
 915 2014-07-15 14:39:50 <ahmed_> mhmm. i dont think the filesystem is an issue as i have 80+ altcoins including litecoin running the same way without issue
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 917 2014-07-15 14:42:37 <ahmed_> wumpus: how do i get a backtrace with gdb?
 918 2014-07-15 14:42:43 <wumpus> ahmed_: bt
 919 2014-07-15 14:43:02 <ahmed_> so i do gdb bitcoind. run and then bt?
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 921 2014-07-15 14:43:18 <wumpus> ahmed_: or gdb -args bitcoind <arguments>
 922 2014-07-15 14:43:23 <wumpus> and when it crashes you do bt
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 927 2014-07-15 14:44:20 <wumpus> that shows the backtrace for the current thread, if that's not enough you can do `thread apply all bt` to get a backtrace for all threads
 928 2014-07-15 14:45:10 <ahmed_> right running. it normally takes a couple of hours for it to crash
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 930 2014-07-15 14:47:47 <jtimon> in rpcblockchain.cpp:blockToJSON, would it matter if I replace this with a string?
 931 2014-07-15 14:47:47 <jtimon>     result.push_back(Pair("nonce", (uint64_t)block.proof.nNonce));
 932 2014-07-15 14:48:47 <wumpus> if that is already in a release, then changing it will break programs that rely on the current interface
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 934 2014-07-15 14:49:24 <wumpus> you can't just replace an integer with a string and hope nothing goes wrong, if that was the case we'd have changed the montary amounts in RPC to satoshis long ago...
 935 2014-07-15 14:49:37 <jtimon> answered, thanks
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 941 2014-07-15 14:56:59 <Luke-Jr> side note: despite my omission of mentioning payment protocol, I do of course agree that's a better solution to expiration of sPKs
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 950 2014-07-15 15:03:35 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: right, in principle, if you want someone to pay you multiple times you should give them a BIP32 root key and have them use public derivation, that'd avoid the address reuse
 951 2014-07-15 15:03:53 <wumpus> (well not a root key, a parent key)
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 984 2014-07-15 15:25:21 <__nskelsey__> Hey folks quick question, I am parsing blk000*.dat files and the last one in my testnet folder seems to have abunch of extra junk at the end of it. Any ideas?
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 986 2014-07-15 15:26:40 <hearn> wumpus: i suspect (but don't know) that the root of this feature request is a JSON-RPC API that cannot handle binary data
 987 2014-07-15 15:27:10 <hearn> wumpus: a canonical way to encode a PaymentRequest as text would potentially be useful to handle text-based protocols
 988 2014-07-15 15:27:45 <wumpus> hearn: right, that may be useful, I suppose we could use the same ascii-armoring that GPG and friends do
 989 2014-07-15 15:28:04 <hearn> or just use something like BIP70:<base64 encoded protobuf>
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 991 2014-07-15 15:28:53 <wumpus> I guess, but then you'll run against cases where the maximum width is a problem
 992 2014-07-15 15:29:48 <wumpus> if you want to define a canonical way it makes sense to use some existing standard, people have already thought about all these problems before and they're no different for bitcoin
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 994 2014-07-15 15:31:08 <hearn> well GPG is meant to be used where human-readable text will appear. base64 by itself is usually enough especially for text-based protocols/apis
 995 2014-07-15 15:31:14 <drizztbsd> __nskelsey__: how do you parse it?
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 997 2014-07-15 15:36:22 <__nskelsey__> drizztbsd: I use a struct for the headers and then I iterate through the txs deserializing as I go. It works great until the last blk file.
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1000 2014-07-15 15:37:56 <__nskelsey__> drizztbsd: I end up with a bunch of blocks with what I think is the empty hash: 14508459b221041ea.....
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1002 2014-07-15 15:39:03 <Luke-Jr> ghashio heading a committee (and managing funding from outside sources for) decentralising mining - what a joke, sigh
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1004 2014-07-15 15:39:47 <__nskelsey__> drizztbdsd: I guess my main problem is that I don't have any good tools to inspect binary data. hexedit is failing me atm
1005 2014-07-15 15:40:00 <hearn> shrug. they have funds. this issue is a headache for them. i agree it's ironic, but if it gets the job done ...
1006 2014-07-15 15:40:28 <hearn> the real question on my mind now is ..... is there anyone who can be given money to work on mining decentralisation full time?
1007 2014-07-15 15:41:12 <Luke-Jr> hearn: sounded to me more like they're just soliciting outside funds to be donated to them
1008 2014-07-15 15:44:24 <gmaxwell> hearn: working on making that happen..., unfortunately the most likely candidates are already largely scheduled.
1009 2014-07-15 15:44:51 <gmaxwell> One thing we need to fix is this fixation on 50%.  You're ending up with crazy people funding these operations thinking it's okay if they have 40% hashrate.
1010 2014-07-15 15:44:57 <hearn> gmaxwell: as was ever thus .... let me know if i can help.
1011 2014-07-15 15:45:57 <jgarzik> FWIW I'm working with several parties to attack the problem of growing the clueful-dev count
1012 2014-07-15 15:46:01 <Emcy> whos gonna tell them anything over 15% is hazardous
1013 2014-07-15 15:46:12 <jgarzik> MOOC, advising a few uni's
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1016 2014-07-15 15:46:53 <jgarzik> I see that as the biggest short term problem.  Everybody wants to hire/fund/etc. the same small crew.  (whoops, wrote "screw" there initially)
1017 2014-07-15 15:47:24 <hearn> yeah
1018 2014-07-15 15:47:37 <hearn> the fixation on "core developers" is not one i ever saw in other open source projects
1019 2014-07-15 15:47:46 shaileshg has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1020 2014-07-15 15:49:06 <Emcy> whats different about bitcoin
1021 2014-07-15 15:49:10 dizko has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1022 2014-07-15 15:49:38 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1023 2014-07-15 15:49:53 <wumpus> hearn: it's curious, although things are improving slowly, there are increasingly many clueful contributions from outside parties
1024 2014-07-15 15:49:53 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: IMO it's because outside this small circle, most people are clueless. hope your efforts to fix that are fruitful
1025 2014-07-15 15:50:04 <hearn> i dunno where this terminology got started. it seems to have appeared organically.
1026 2014-07-15 15:51:30 <pigeons> i think the term was to differentiate from "bitcoin developers" (you could make a php page that takes bitcoin) and people who worked on the reference client.
1027 2014-07-15 15:51:36 <wumpus> hearn: though I agree its different from most open source projects, the bitcoin community always been an odd duck out compared to others
1028 2014-07-15 15:51:40 <jgarzik> hearn, posh.  There is a fixation on any project's core developers.
1029 2014-07-15 15:51:47 <jgarzik> That happens in ALL big FOSS projects!
1030 2014-07-15 15:51:55 <pigeons> other clients are relatively recent. and what do you call the reference client? the term bitcoin-qt hadn't come about, bitcoind excludes the gui, etc
1031 2014-07-15 15:52:12 <wumpus> pigeons: it's not so much about what client people contribute to
1032 2014-07-15 15:52:14 <jgarzik> Saw that with bitcoin, Linux kernel, apache, mysql, ...
1033 2014-07-15 15:52:32 <pigeons> wumpus: no its not but i think thats how the "core" term emerged originally
1034 2014-07-15 15:52:41 <wumpus> hearn is regarded a 'core developer' as well even though he builds bitcoinj
1035 2014-07-15 15:52:53 <pigeons> oh ok, who knows then!
1036 2014-07-15 15:53:08 <hearn> sometimes people ask me if i am one and i never know what to say :)
1037 2014-07-15 15:53:14 <wumpus> lol just say yes
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1039 2014-07-15 15:54:10 <pigeons> now it gets confusing with the "bitcore" software, it can seem to be an abbreviated way to say "bitcoin core"
1040 2014-07-15 15:54:16 <hearn> ah, no
1041 2014-07-15 15:54:21 <hearn> bitcore is a different program entirely to bitcoin core
1042 2014-07-15 15:54:34 <pigeons> right, i'm saying it can seem that way wrongly at first hearing
1043 2014-07-15 15:54:35 ThomasV has joined
1044 2014-07-15 15:54:40 <pigeons> and get confusing
1045 2014-07-15 15:54:50 <wumpus> but the harmful side to this is that a lot of people think that only 'core developers' can make changes and should thus be prodded to do things, instead of contributing themselves
1046 2014-07-15 15:55:20 <wumpus> yes bitcore confused me too in the beginning, I suppose we both picked a similar name at the same time
1047 2014-07-15 15:55:20 <Luke-Jr> might help to remove the short-list of people from bitcoin.org
1048 2014-07-15 15:55:34 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yeah thought about that as well
1049 2014-07-15 15:55:48 <Emcy> perhaps only you really know how it works
1050 2014-07-15 15:55:52 <Luke-Jr> IMO it'd be nice to expand the big list to include all bitcoin projects too, but that's work..
1051 2014-07-15 15:55:52 <Emcy> whats the code like to read
1052 2014-07-15 15:56:16 <wumpus> *all* bitcoin projects? hmm I don't know
1053 2014-07-15 15:56:27 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: well, within reason
1054 2014-07-15 15:56:48 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: Amir was(is?) pissy over not being on the bitcoin.org list
1055 2014-07-15 15:57:16 <SomeoneWeird> yeah why am I not on that list?!
1056 2014-07-15 15:57:18 <SomeoneWeird> >.>
1057 2014-07-15 15:57:19 <SomeoneWeird> <.<
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1061 2014-07-15 15:58:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's curious as well that the obelisk guys and the btcd guys have all carved out their own little treehouse and don't really share much with us
1062 2014-07-15 15:58:22 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I do have scripts to sort by lines-in-active-branches of all the projects in BitGit, but some effort would be needed to integrate that
1063 2014-07-15 15:58:31 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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1066 2014-07-15 15:59:21 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, I'm sure everyone has their hands full with more important stuff, so no point discussing at length
1067 2014-07-15 16:00:27 <dhill> btcd is now 70002
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1069 2014-07-15 16:00:57 <Emcy> SomeoneWeird youre not cool enough
1070 2014-07-15 16:01:10 <SomeoneWeird> aw :'(
1071 2014-07-15 16:01:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: re btcd, it seems to be improving, just maybe without us noticing.. I think dhill and a few others here are btcd team
1072 2014-07-15 16:01:28 StarenseN has joined
1073 2014-07-15 16:01:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'm not saying that nothing is happening
1074 2014-07-15 16:01:34 <Emcy> er
1075 2014-07-15 16:01:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: just that they never post releases to the bitcoin mailing list, or here, or things like that... it seems a private dimension of their own
1076 2014-07-15 16:01:58 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: also, many people seem to get the impression this channel is for BCCore only for some reason
1077 2014-07-15 16:02:05 <Emcy> i would have though bccore team would ahve good strong lines of communication with other implementations, considering the risk
1078 2014-07-15 16:02:15 <dhill> wumpus: davec and myself have done plenty of GH issues for bitcoin
1079 2014-07-15 16:02:18 <davec> Luke-Jr: that is exactly the impression
1080 2014-07-15 16:02:21 <jrick> Luke-Jr: yeah we like to idle around :)
1081 2014-07-15 16:02:40 <Luke-Jr> IMO #bitcoin-dev, the ML, etc are for general bitcoin network stuff
1082 2014-07-15 16:02:51 <GAit> Luke-Jr: 'reference software' is btcd reference software? i never heard anyone being told off for talking about btcd but it is actively discouraged from core devs as far as i can see
1083 2014-07-15 16:03:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well it's not forbidden to talk about other implementations here, just that it should be -dev stuff and not user questions
1084 2014-07-15 16:03:10 <Luke-Jr> right
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1086 2014-07-15 16:03:25 <davec> I intentionally have not talked about btcd here much as it has seemingly been discouraged to talk about non bitcoin core things
1087 2014-07-15 16:03:33 <davec> perhaps it's just impression
1088 2014-07-15 16:03:38 <GAit> davec: that was also my impression
1089 2014-07-15 16:03:45 <wumpus> davec: other bitcoin implementations are fine, altcoins are not
1090 2014-07-15 16:03:55 <Luke-Jr> ^
1091 2014-07-15 16:04:20 <GAit> now kiss
1092 2014-07-15 16:04:28 <Emcy> this is bitcoin-dev not bccore-dev
1093 2014-07-15 16:04:35 ConvivialMatt has quit (Quit: ConvivialMatt)
1094 2014-07-15 16:05:13 <wumpus> Emcy: so?
1095 2014-07-15 16:05:23 <Luke-Jr> I think he's agreeing ;)
1096 2014-07-15 16:05:25 sabfer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1097 2014-07-15 16:06:13 <Emcy> yes, talk about all implementaions here i would think
1098 2014-07-15 16:06:23 <davec> I definitely don't mind posting things here such as the recent bump to protocol version 70002 due to BIP0061/reject support.
1099 2014-07-15 16:07:07 <davec> I just wasn't because I had the same impression as GAit
1100 2014-07-15 16:07:14 <davec> thanks for clarifying that
1101 2014-07-15 16:07:20 <wumpus> okay :)
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1104 2014-07-15 16:08:24 <wumpus> good to hear that BIP0061 is implemented now
1105 2014-07-15 16:08:58 <GAit> i think davec and I had the impression because people are rightly scared of consensus incompatibilities, whether because of of bugs/undefined behaviours, etc
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1108 2014-07-15 16:09:39 <davec> the title as says " and reference software "
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1110 2014-07-15 16:09:52 <jgarzik> davec, Just the opposite.  Please DO talk about non-bitcoind projects in here...   The chatter is on-topic if it is discussing bitcoin protocol, consensus, etc.
1111 2014-07-15 16:09:56 <davec> unless we want to start calling btcd the reference implementation :)
1112 2014-07-15 16:09:58 <davec> :P
1113 2014-07-15 16:10:04 <gavinandresen_> Satoshi was very anti-other-implementations. I think we've grown enough in our testing infrastructure that other implementations are great.
1114 2014-07-15 16:10:05 <jgarzik> davec, in addition, it is support channel of Bitcoin Core software
1115 2014-07-15 16:10:11 <davec> I kid, but seriously that is why the confusion I think
1116 2014-07-15 16:10:18 <jgarzik> davec, that is what the /topic means
1117 2014-07-15 16:10:20 <wumpus> jgarzik: well it's not really a support channel
1118 2014-07-15 16:10:32 <gmaxwell> davec: still expecting comments from btcd on gettxout. :)
1119 2014-07-15 16:10:33 <jgarzik> wumpus, sure it is -- for high level devs (not end users)
1120 2014-07-15 16:10:38 <wumpus> it is a development channel, it's only support for developers at most
1121 2014-07-15 16:10:40 <wumpus> right jgarzik
1122 2014-07-15 16:10:44 <GAit> i definately see some change of direction here, and i welcome it i guess :)
1123 2014-07-15 16:10:49 <jgarzik> level 3 support :)
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1125 2014-07-15 16:11:17 <jgarzik> GAit, no change.  It is just people are confused about the social conventions and dev process sometimes.
1126 2014-07-15 16:11:23 <jgarzik> natural
1127 2014-07-15 16:11:40 <GAit> fair enough :) not going to argue
1128 2014-07-15 16:12:19 <gmaxwell> er. getutxos I mean.
1129 2014-07-15 16:12:24 <wumpus> gavinandresen_: but I think even Satoshi realized that alt implementations won't go away by being against them :p
1130 2014-07-15 16:12:53 <jgarzik> We need a bitcoin newbies project, like the kernel had the "kernel newbies" project.  Diving into Linux kernel developement and getting sometimes harsh criticism can be daunting.  The "kernel newbies" project wasn't really for newbies, it was for mentoring interested developers into the development process and social conventions.
1131 2014-07-15 16:13:09 <jgarzik> Quickly bootstrapping devs into the dev community.
1132 2014-07-15 16:13:22 <GAit> bwn
1133 2014-07-15 16:13:24 <GAit> bitcoin weekly news
1134 2014-07-15 16:13:58 <GAit> (i'm a fan of linux weekly news dot net)
1135 2014-07-15 16:14:03 coinheavy has joined
1136 2014-07-15 16:14:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, davec: Yes, in particular, we need to see devs of alt-implementations giving feedback on protocol changes
1137 2014-07-15 16:14:20 <wumpus> GAit: me too
1138 2014-07-15 16:14:30 <jgarzik> +1
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1141 2014-07-15 16:15:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yep I actually reached out to them directly as soon as mike posted the BIP draft.
1142 2014-07-15 16:15:33 <GAit> and it could have the same paywall, i.e. you can only read up to the one before this week for free otherwise pay .. in btc :)
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1149 2014-07-15 16:16:07 <jgarzik> LWN does a great job of covering kernel issues, including the flamewars and topics of hot debate.  It grew out of, in the distant past, "kernel traffic", a weekly summary of the various discussions on the various @vger.kernel.org linux-kernel mailing lists.
1150 2014-07-15 16:16:34 <jgarzik> BWN would be great, but, like LWN, needs someone vaguely clueful about bitcoin tech, to somewhat separate the wheat from chaff.
1151 2014-07-15 16:16:53 ak_ has joined
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1153 2014-07-15 16:17:24 <wumpus> jgarzik: right, we'd need someone that writes about the progress on bitcoin projects, who has the technical understanding
1154 2014-07-15 16:17:25 <GAit> jgarzik: is it crazy if i suggest it could be a rotating job from bitcoin devs?
1155 2014-07-15 16:17:34 <jgarzik> yes
1156 2014-07-15 16:17:39 <jgarzik> ;p
1157 2014-07-15 16:18:03 <wumpus> jgarzik: so no sensationalism, or economist trollery, but just the technical side
1158 2014-07-15 16:18:11 <jgarzik> +1
1159 2014-07-15 16:18:14 <GAit> wumpus: yeah no commercial stuff
1160 2014-07-15 16:18:21 pierreatwork has joined
1161 2014-07-15 16:18:21 <GAit> +1
1162 2014-07-15 16:18:41 sabfer has joined
1163 2014-07-15 16:18:43 <jgarzik> GAit, Does your request match the pattern, by analogy:  "Give Linus Torvalds more work to do"
1164 2014-07-15 16:18:53 jMyles has joined
1165 2014-07-15 16:18:57 <jgarzik> There is usually a community member or three who is interested, and could be encouraged.
1166 2014-07-15 16:19:08 <jgarzik> :)
1167 2014-07-15 16:19:12 <GAit> jgarzik: a common theme is that those that know are doing something already
1168 2014-07-15 16:19:29 <wumpus> I mean, coindesk interviews developers and such but they always manage to misquote people (either intentially to make it seem more sensational or accidentally)
1169 2014-07-15 16:19:35 <GAit> companies, including my own, are finding it hard to find good talent, often is not even money, they are already building the next thing themselves
1170 2014-07-15 16:20:21 kachi8 has joined
1171 2014-07-15 16:20:37 <GAit> i wasn't sure my suggestion was the best but was the only thing i could think of that would produce reasonable content
1172 2014-07-15 16:20:50 <jgarzik> GAit, Yes.  I've been getting a lot of "I have money, which core dev gets funding?" requests.  The core devs are a small number.  The answer is to find motivated devs outside the small group, and bootstrap them into the bitcoin ecosystem with  rapid knowledge transfer
1173 2014-07-15 16:20:52 <wumpus> well it's the fairest suggestion to distribute the load
1174 2014-07-15 16:21:06 <shesek> does anyone know the state of threshold signatures? I know that some error was found in the paper, but I remember the authors saying that they have a way to fix that
1175 2014-07-15 16:21:24 <shesek> is it currently theoretically sound?
1176 2014-07-15 16:21:33 <jgarzik> GAit, reviewing someone else's writing is generally not a problem.  writing new content requires time, effort, blah blah.
1177 2014-07-15 16:21:50 <GAit> the rotation could be about filtering as opposed to writing
1178 2014-07-15 16:21:53 jgarzik is now known as home_jg
1179 2014-07-15 16:22:00 <home_jg> GAit, +1
1180 2014-07-15 16:22:19 <wumpus> maybe Saivann would be interested, or someone of the bitcoin documentation project guys
1181 2014-07-15 16:22:21 <GAit> i'd be happy to contribute to it
1182 2014-07-15 16:22:26 <GAit> (both write and review)
1183 2014-07-15 16:22:49 <home_jg> GAit, no need for that to be explicit, either.  Most important thing is that writer/editors take feedback and criticism.  Ship will steer itself on correct course.
1184 2014-07-15 16:23:08 <GAit> i agree, a bit like patches right :)
1185 2014-07-15 16:24:19 chax has joined
1186 2014-07-15 16:24:54 <Luke-Jr> GAit: IMO go ahead and write up the first one in a GDoc then link it here so others can skim over review it?
1187 2014-07-15 16:25:19 <GAit> gdoc or maybe github
1188 2014-07-15 16:25:27 hearn has joined
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1190 2014-07-15 16:26:35 <GAit> i wrote a couple of times on a blog but i am not a master of the english language and i have not been following everything going on in bitcoin development as much as others. If you have some specific topics you'd want expanded i'd be happy to give it a go, if anything even if not great it may help bootstrap the effort
1191 2014-07-15 16:26:57 <home_jg> mainly it needs to be a regular thing.  Here's an example of the Kernel sub-section of LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/603653/
1192 2014-07-15 16:27:09 <home_jg> It expands or contracts based on dev activity, both commit and social chatter on MLs.
1193 2014-07-15 16:27:27 <GAit> we need to have the quote of the week
1194 2014-07-15 16:27:30 theorbtwo has joined
1195 2014-07-15 16:27:38 <Luke-Jr> GAit: my wife copyedits for BC Mag; I can have her go over it too
1196 2014-07-15 16:27:47 <GAit> Luke-Jr: top, thanks
1197 2014-07-15 16:27:50 <home_jg> Notable commits to bitcoin clients get listed, etc.  bitcoind, btcd, ufasoft, ...
1198 2014-07-15 16:27:55 <Luke-Jr> Quote of the week seems .. pointless IMO
1199 2014-07-15 16:28:07 <Luke-Jr> home_jg: people use ufasoft? O.o
1200 2014-07-15 16:28:10 <home_jg> Luke-Jr, of course it is..  live a little :)
1201 2014-07-15 16:28:18 <home_jg> *poof*
1202 2014-07-15 16:28:20 <GAit> ^^
1203 2014-07-15 16:28:22 <GAit> :)
1204 2014-07-15 16:28:29 <jrick> QOTW: "Quote of the week seems .. pointless IMO" -- Luke-Jr
1205 2014-07-15 16:28:46 <GAit> yep
1206 2014-07-15 16:28:46 <GAit> :D
1207 2014-07-15 16:28:46 * Luke-Jr facepalms
1208 2014-07-15 16:28:47 <GAit> well done, we got things started
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1214 2014-07-15 16:33:01 <Emcy> i thought testing was still the main problem
1215 2014-07-15 16:33:04 <Emcy> before more devel
1216 2014-07-15 16:33:12 <__nskelsey__> chicken + egg
1217 2014-07-15 16:34:42 <davec> jgarzik/gmaxwell: I'll respond tonight - read it and most of the surrounding discussion.  Was deep in code land with adding all of the reject stuff
1218 2014-07-15 16:35:35 <Luke-Jr> Emcy: it is, but testers either need to be devs, or should be people incapable of dev ;)
1219 2014-07-15 16:35:47 <davec> speaking of reject/BIP0061 - I noticed that when a tx references inputs that don't exist (either because already spent or just not there), bccore send a reject message with code 0x12, which according to the BIP is "Duplicate version message received"
1220 2014-07-15 16:36:27 <Emcy> Luke-Jr theres nothing really helping to induct plebs to be testers
1221 2014-07-15 16:36:45 gnuborg has joined
1222 2014-07-15 16:36:58 <hearn> er, calling people "plebs" isn't going to help
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1224 2014-07-15 16:37:15 <hearn> davec: someone noticed this the other day - the code doesn't match the bip. not sure why. probably easier to fix the bip
1225 2014-07-15 16:37:19 <Emcy> thats mainly self-referential hearn
1226 2014-07-15 16:37:33 <Emcy> ive been here 4 years and i found i think one bug
1227 2014-07-15 16:37:36 closer has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1228 2014-07-15 16:38:21 <jrick> yeah that was me, reviewing davec's branch
1229 2014-07-15 16:38:45 <davec> I also noticed that the user agent is sanitized through the same function as the reject strings and it strips () which is part of BIP0014
1230 2014-07-15 16:39:03 <davec> so technically it's stripping valid chars per BIP0014 from uas
1231 2014-07-15 16:39:32 closer has joined
1232 2014-07-15 16:39:36 <hearn> yeah. it annoys me too :)
1233 2014-07-15 16:40:23 <gmaxwell> davec: no rush; just reminding you that your comments are important.
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1239 2014-07-15 16:49:10 <GAit> err, i got something started, feel free to PM me for a link to the google doc unless you think is fine for me to spam the chan
1240 2014-07-15 16:49:27 <ahmed_> wumpus: this is weird
1241 2014-07-15 16:49:45 <ahmed_> [Thread 0x7ffff3f47700 (LWP 45639) exited]
1242 2014-07-15 16:49:45 <ahmed_> [Thread 0x7ffff4748700 (LWP 45638) exited]
1243 2014-07-15 16:49:45 <ahmed_> [Thread 0x7ffff4f49700 (LWP 45637) exited]
1244 2014-07-15 16:49:45 <ahmed_> [Thread 0x7ffff574a700 (LWP 45636) exited]
1245 2014-07-15 16:49:45 <ahmed_> [Thread 0x7ffff7fe3780 (LWP 45632) exited]
1246 2014-07-15 16:49:46 <ahmed_> Program terminated with signal SIGKILL, Killed.
1247 2014-07-15 16:49:46 <ahmed_> The program no longer exists.
1248 2014-07-15 16:49:49 Raziel has joined
1249 2014-07-15 16:50:08 <gmaxwell> ahmed_: 32bit host?
1250 2014-07-15 16:50:17 <ahmed_> gmaxwell: 64
1251 2014-07-15 16:50:27 <ahmed_> (its an azure VM)
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1254 2014-07-15 16:51:06 <Luke-Jr> ahmed_: dmesg say anything useful?
1255 2014-07-15 16:51:16 <ahmed_> Luke-Jr: ill check now
1256 2014-07-15 16:51:36 <ahmed_> [396580.814396] [45632]  1000 45632   602021   228019     610        0             0 bitcoind
1257 2014-07-15 16:51:36 <ahmed_> [396580.814398] Out of memory: Kill process 45632 (bitcoind) score 63 or sacrifice child
1258 2014-07-15 16:51:36 <ahmed_> [396580.818315] Killed process 45632 (bitcoind) total-vm:2408084kB, anon-rss:912076kB, file-rss:0kB
1259 2014-07-15 16:53:08 <pigeons> make a swap file
1260 2014-07-15 16:53:09 PhileasFogg is now known as OrvilleWright
1261 2014-07-15 16:53:59 <ahmed_> pigeons: yeah doing so now
1262 2014-07-15 16:54:06 <ahmed_> surprised i need one
1263 2014-07-15 16:54:36 <Luke-Jr> doesn't sound like the VM has much
1264 2014-07-15 16:55:03 OrvilleWright is now known as PhileasFogg
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1269 2014-07-15 16:55:54 <Luke-Jr> ahmed_: note that Linux *always* needs swap; the OOM killer doesn't work right with no-swap even if you have plenty of RAM for everything
1270 2014-07-15 16:56:15 ErnstBlofeld is now known as OrvilleWright
1271 2014-07-15 16:56:19 <GAit> Luke-Jr: really? is that a suggestion for servers only?
1272 2014-07-15 16:56:29 <ahmed_> Luke-Jr: 14GB ram on that server
1273 2014-07-15 16:56:45 <ahmed_> but it also has 88 other coind's on there
1274 2014-07-15 16:56:56 <pigeons> yeah and especially in a VM, it will think it can allocate all of the hosts ram in certain situations
1275 2014-07-15 16:56:58 <Luke-Jr> GAit: I don't know why it would be for servers only, though it's only affected me on servers
1276 2014-07-15 16:57:14 <GAit> pigeons: and of course fragmentation doesn't allow that?
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1279 2014-07-15 16:57:43 <GAit> Luke-Jr: because I don't use swap for one of my arch boxes at home with 32gb of ram and ssd
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1281 2014-07-15 16:57:57 <GAit> and from the arch wiki it seemed like the way to go
1282 2014-07-15 16:58:09 <pigeons> yeah i only have the problem in vms, even if the guest has plenty of ram
1283 2014-07-15 16:58:10 OneFixt has joined
1284 2014-07-15 16:58:16 <pigeons> vm's
1285 2014-07-15 16:58:51 <Luke-Jr> GAit: dunno, I just know OOM killer used to harrass Eligius all the time even though it had like 16-24 GB RAM unused
1286 2014-07-15 16:59:07 <Luke-Jr> and apparently adding swap fixes it
1287 2014-07-15 16:59:14 sabfer has joined
1288 2014-07-15 16:59:34 <Luke-Jr> it's pretty weird
1289 2014-07-15 16:59:38 <ahmed_> agreed
1290 2014-07-15 16:59:51 <GAit> Luke-Jr: i meant to ask you, if you don't mind, what linux distribution do you use for eligius?
1291 2014-07-15 16:59:59 <GAit> centos/redhat or debian or ?
1292 2014-07-15 17:00:10 <hearn> one of my bitcoind's has an rss of 860mb right now :(
1293 2014-07-15 17:00:14 xenog has joined
1294 2014-07-15 17:00:19 <sipa> hearn: seems normal
1295 2014-07-15 17:00:34 <hearn> it used to be less, no?
1296 2014-07-15 17:00:38 <hearn> i seem to recall it being <500mb
1297 2014-07-15 17:00:43 <sipa> long time ago
1298 2014-07-15 17:00:51 <Luke-Jr> GAit: I used Gentoo on a Debian kernel - I think wizkid057 has it all Debian now
1299 2014-07-15 17:01:05 <ahmed_> debian rocks :)
1300 2014-07-15 17:01:07 <hearn> any idea what Snoopy is?
1301 2014-07-15 17:01:15 <sipa> some ETHZ thing, no?
1302 2014-07-15 17:01:17 <ahmed_> i use debian or ubuntu on my pools
1303 2014-07-15 17:01:18 <GAit> yeah debian is great, besides the ssh entropy fiasco
1304 2014-07-15 17:01:36 <Luke-Jr> next Debian is switching to systemd too :/
1305 2014-07-15 17:01:39 <pigeons> there was an ssl one too
1306 2014-07-15 17:01:47 <Luke-Jr> so probably going to migrate to more Gentoo myself
1307 2014-07-15 17:01:48 <GAit> i think the ssl one wasn't limited to debian
1308 2014-07-15 17:01:57 <GAit> i like arch but i would never put it on a server
1309 2014-07-15 17:02:01 <GAit> same for gentoo
1310 2014-07-15 17:02:04 <GAit> but maybe i'm weird
1311 2014-07-15 17:02:23 <Luke-Jr> GAit: it's tolerable if you use OpenVZ to wrap it
1312 2014-07-15 17:02:27 <ahmed_> i like cent but it gets to be a bit of a pain sometimes
1313 2014-07-15 17:02:32 <Luke-Jr> so the host node always boots
1314 2014-07-15 17:02:58 Gyps has joined
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1316 2014-07-15 17:05:09 <Luke-Jr> but who knows, maybe someone will fork Debian to have a sane init
1317 2014-07-15 17:05:19 MoALTz has joined
1318 2014-07-15 17:05:41 <GAit> i like systemd in arch and i wouldn't go back, at least on my desktop/laptop, but i think we're getting too far on the OT side
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1333 2014-07-15 17:13:08 <GAit> anyway, i started the gdoc for the bitcoin weekly news, if someone wants to comment of format/content/etc or even directly make changes feel free, anyone can modify it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NByHddb-H_-u7c79kDOve02dueqbMq1o8mKXXy8qoNQ/edit?usp=sharing (it's just a draft to understand what we want and whether is worth persuing this !!)
1334 2014-07-15 17:15:17 <Luke-Jr> GAit: probably want to specify BCCore vs btcd vs DarkWallet etc when talking about specific code
1335 2014-07-15 17:15:45 pierreatwork has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1336 2014-07-15 17:15:54 <GAit> i separated them, bitcoin core, btcd, and didn't add anything extra yet but the idea is to add more things relevant, i.e. core bitcoin too (objc)
1337 2014-07-15 17:16:28 samesong has joined
1338 2014-07-15 17:16:33 <GAit> maybe it should have more obvious separation
1339 2014-07-15 17:16:51 <Luke-Jr> "core bitcoin too (objc)" <-- huh?
1340 2014-07-15 17:17:09 <GAit> https://github.com/oleganza/CoreBitcoin
1341 2014-07-15 17:17:23 <GAit> i didn't spend much time on it but isn't it in objc?
1342 2014-07-15 17:17:28 pierreatwork has joined
1343 2014-07-15 17:17:52 <GAit> yeah it is from the readme
1344 2014-07-15 17:18:26 <Luke-Jr> wow, that's confusing naming -.-
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1346 2014-07-15 17:19:00 <GAit> i am surprised you didn't know about the project, but indeed it is confusing - although it was named like that earlier than bitcoin changed to bitcoin core imho
1347 2014-07-15 17:19:12 <sipa> and then there's bitcore...
1348 2014-07-15 17:19:16 <GAit> s/imho/iirc
1349 2014-07-15 17:20:15 <hearn> haha
1350 2014-07-15 17:20:19 <GAit> i think more on bitcoinj and some summary of flames on the mailing list and it should be reasonable
1351 2014-07-15 17:20:26 <hearn> i think we collectively have a massive imagination failure here
1352 2014-07-15 17:20:40 <hearn> or we just love the word core. though - ahem - i take credit for coming up with the name "Bitcoin Core"
1353 2014-07-15 17:20:47 <hearn> thankyou thankyou
1354 2014-07-15 17:20:55 <Luke-Jr> that name sucks too!
1355 2014-07-15 17:20:56 <hearn> GAit: you want bitcoinj news?
1356 2014-07-15 17:20:57 <Luke-Jr> :P jk
1357 2014-07-15 17:21:41 * Luke-Jr ponders Bitcoin Head, Bitcoin Tails, and Bitcoin Sides :P
1358 2014-07-15 17:21:47 <GAit> hearn: not sure if you followed the conversation but basically it was suggested that it would be good to have an equivalent of linux weekly news (lwn.net) for bitcoin by people that speak it
1359 2014-07-15 17:21:56 <hearn> Luke-Jr: did you see the other suggested names?
1360 2014-07-15 17:22:06 <GAit> Bitcoin Mainstream :D
1361 2014-07-15 17:22:21 <Luke-Jr> hearn: probably, it's been a while. I think I suggested one too, but I don't remember what it was either
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1363 2014-07-15 17:22:42 <hearn> Luke-Jr: Grasberg was one serious suggestion
1364 2014-07-15 17:22:55 <hearn> Nakamoto
1365 2014-07-15 17:22:56 <Luke-Jr> wat
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1367 2014-07-15 17:23:29 <hearn> also Bitcoin Nova
1368 2014-07-15 17:24:04 <hearn> CoinTorrent?
1369 2014-07-15 17:24:11 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1370 2014-07-15 17:24:11 <GAit> just nope
1371 2014-07-15 17:24:28 <Luke-Jr> CoinTorrent should be a bittorrent client that lets peers pay for data :p
1372 2014-07-15 17:24:36 <hearn> Bitcoin DNA
1373 2014-07-15 17:24:42 <hearn> https://bitcoinfoundation.org/forum/index.php?/topic/95-new-name-for-bitcoin-qt-bitcoind/page__st__40
1374 2014-07-15 17:24:50 <hearn> Nakamoney
1375 2014-07-15 17:24:52 <GAit> just rename the damn thing bitcoin one once it reaches the version milestone
1376 2014-07-15 17:25:15 <hearn> Luke-Jr: you suggested CuteCoin, for the record ;)
1377 2014-07-15 17:25:31 <GAit> that's cute of you Luke-Jr, I didn't realize :D
1378 2014-07-15 17:25:54 <hearn> ah yes. that's the name i was trying to remember
1379 2014-07-15 17:25:56 <hearn> "Cherry Blossom"
1380 2014-07-15 17:26:02 <hearn> can you imagine the release announcements, hahaha :)
1381 2014-07-15 17:26:22 <GAit> you wouldn't download a cherry blossom!
1382 2014-07-15 17:26:49 <Luke-Jr> GAit: Qt is pronounced "cute" ;)
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1384 2014-07-15 17:27:10 <GAit> Luke-Jr: true
1385 2014-07-15 17:27:11 <hearn> i think Brian Goss won the thread with his suggestion of renaming the software to "Bitcoin Foundation"
1386 2014-07-15 17:27:23 <hearn> ah man. this thread is comedy gold. i had forgotten .... :D
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1388 2014-07-15 17:28:32 <Luke-Jr> ugh, then we'd have even more people thinking the BCF controls the client
1389 2014-07-15 17:28:35 <GAit> imho bitcoin classic wasn't terrible
1390 2014-07-15 17:28:37 <hearn> GAit: bitcoinj news: HD wallets is making good progress, we should be ready for beta testing of that feature soon with lots of real users.
1391 2014-07-15 17:28:54 <hearn> GAit: additionally the wallet-template example GUI wallet app now supports encryption and seed export/restore as words
1392 2014-07-15 17:29:11 <hearn> GAit: bip 38 is now supported
1393 2014-07-15 17:29:16 <gmaxwell> there are ~50 commits to bitcoin master in the past 7 days and all that can be extracted is two bullet points? :P
1394 2014-07-15 17:29:28 <GAit> gmaxwell: 'draft'
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1396 2014-07-15 17:29:31 <gmaxwell> I think sipa has opened a dozen pull requests himself alone.
1397 2014-07-15 17:29:47 <GAit> to understand if the format is reasonable and if that's the sort of content we're after
1398 2014-07-15 17:29:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: just rub it in that i don't have a life :(
1399 2014-07-15 17:29:56 <GAit> what do you expect in 20 minutes since we talked about it
1400 2014-07-15 17:30:06 <sipa> :p
1401 2014-07-15 17:30:43 <GAit> good thing anyway can edit, well volounteered gmaxwell!
1402 2014-07-15 17:30:44 <gmaxwell> GAit: I think it's kinda awkward between a cooked and analyized coverage and a list of commits, and probably fails at both at the moment. I'm not criticizing _you_.
1403 2014-07-15 17:30:49 <GAit> s/anyway/anyone
1404 2014-07-15 17:31:20 <gmaxwell> GAit: telling people that its rubbish and they should ignore it takes less effort. :P
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1407 2014-07-15 17:31:56 <GAit> gmaxwell: fair enough, this is exactly the feedback we need i think, i like to iterate over things but i gotta start somewhere
1408 2014-07-15 17:32:13 <hearn> GAit: imo the most interesting bitcoin-core news is the new pull req for headers-first
1409 2014-07-15 17:32:22 <hearn> GAit: it takes chain sync time for a new node down to only 3 hours. from like .... a day+
1410 2014-07-15 17:32:34 <gmaxwell> probably you should split it into raw commit lists and discussion. And you should ask the commiters to offer discussion text. (or even courage people to make their commits have some public friendly blurbs in them)
1411 2014-07-15 17:33:09 <hearn> i used to write monthly bitcoin newsletters for google internal consumption. it had a dev section. but it was at a higher level than commits
1412 2014-07-15 17:33:29 <harding> GAit: if you get the project off the ground, please do send an announce to the -docs mailing list.  I, for one, would be happy to help when I can.  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bitcoin-documentation
1413 2014-07-15 17:34:00 <jrick> GAit: for btcd, it's split up into many different repos (btcwire, btcnet, btcutil, btcscript btcchain, ...)
1414 2014-07-15 17:34:09 <jrick> not sure if you mean to include those as well
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1416 2014-07-15 17:34:23 <gmaxwell> hearn: I was thinking about doing a foundation blog post with benchmarking of the headers first / libsecp256k1 / pruning.  "before: 14 hours, 30 gbytes taken, after: 2:15, 1gb taken".
1417 2014-07-15 17:34:41 <hearn> well the pruning change isn't really mergable, right?
1418 2014-07-15 17:34:51 <sipa> it's mergable, but doesn't prune right now
1419 2014-07-15 17:35:00 <gmaxwell> hearn: its more mergable than headers first right now. It'll be done first almost certantly.
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1421 2014-07-15 17:35:09 <hearn> i thought it didn't do any of the protocol parts?
1422 2014-07-15 17:35:13 <hearn> unless it changed since i first looked at it
1423 2014-07-15 17:35:15 <gmaxwell> doesn't need them.
1424 2014-07-15 17:35:33 <gmaxwell> e.g. if you're a merchant running a node... exactly the people who care most about storage.
1425 2014-07-15 17:35:35 <sipa> it just stops advertizing as a NODE_NETWORK if blocks are missing
1426 2014-07-15 17:35:45 <hearn> ok
1427 2014-07-15 17:35:46 <gmaxwell> (or a miner, for that matter. should be great for p2pool)
1428 2014-07-15 17:35:50 <sipa> which is a rough but correct solution
1429 2014-07-15 17:36:21 <hearn> yeah. i hope that doesn't cause listening nodes to drop. but it's a step forward for sure
1430 2014-07-15 17:37:01 <gmaxwell> yep. hopefully before the actual release we'll at least have a "I have the most recent N" service bit in use,  though I proposed we not do it as part of the pruning pull req.
1431 2014-07-15 17:37:10 <GAit> hearn: thanks for the input, i'll add that.
1432 2014-07-15 17:37:44 <GAit> gmaxwell: i'll try to be more analyized than mere raw listing, topics and specific PR input is welcome
1433 2014-07-15 17:37:47 <GAit> harding: i'd love to help get this off the ground and seems like i'll learn a lot in the process too but i also feel i can't do this on my own.
1434 2014-07-15 17:37:51 <gmaxwell> Do we have anyone who is itching to contribute to network rate limiting stuff?  With headers first we'll finaly be able to deploy that.
1435 2014-07-15 17:38:14 <sipa> we'll want some headers-first deployed before that
1436 2014-07-15 17:38:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: true, though it could go in as a hidden feature in the first release with it.
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1438 2014-07-15 17:38:44 <GAit> jrick: i don't think is worth splitting the project even though it is modular but i'm happy to stand corrected
1439 2014-07-15 17:39:27 <harding> GAit: yeah.  Writing about Bitcoin, even for a technical audience where you don't have to explain jargon, takes a lot of time.
1440 2014-07-15 17:39:32 <jrick> it makes it a pain to develop features that span multiple branches but if all you want it to speak wire protocl, you only have to checkout btcwire, for example
1441 2014-07-15 17:40:03 <jrick> but just pointing out that there are other repos that end up being imported into btcd
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1446 2014-07-15 17:42:57 <jgarzik> GAit, good start
1447 2014-07-15 17:43:41 <jgarzik> GAit, For bitcoin, I would suggest "new PRs", "closed PRs", and "hot PRs" as useful categories of focus
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1449 2014-07-15 17:44:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: good idea.
1450 2014-07-15 17:44:19 <GAit> closed means merged or means closed?
1451 2014-07-15 17:44:28 <jgarzik> GAit, closed but not merged
1452 2014-07-15 17:44:40 <GAit> ok so should we have a merged category?
1453 2014-07-15 17:44:42 <jgarzik> GAit, you already have "merged PRs", so I didn't want to repeat myself
1454 2014-07-15 17:44:44 <jgarzik> yes
1455 2014-07-15 17:44:48 <dhill> anyone know sipa's pull request # for multiple peer fetching
1456 2014-07-15 17:44:48 <GAit> kk
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1458 2014-07-15 17:46:27 <GAit> I don't think it should have all PR (whether merged, new or closed) but the most notable, agree?
1459 2014-07-15 17:46:45 <jgarzik> GAit, yes, just notables
1460 2014-07-15 17:47:04 <jgarzik> GAit, boring cleanups and doc changes go unmentioned etc.
1461 2014-07-15 17:47:13 <GAit> yep
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1463 2014-07-15 17:51:19 <GAit> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4523 really? Isn't the rpi famous to corrupt its SD all the time?
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1465 2014-07-15 17:54:04 <jgarzik> GAit, IMO don't bother with issues at all, unless they are hot.  New issues open and close all the fscking time.
1466 2014-07-15 17:54:34 <GAit> yeah i was just reading and got caught in my attention deficit disorder
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1471 2014-07-15 17:57:17 <GAit> jgarzik: i'll try to dedicate more space to the mailing list now and other projects, if there's more to add under bitcoin core we can always add it
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1500 2014-07-15 18:19:19 jgarzik is now known as |
1501 2014-07-15 18:19:23  is now known as !~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik||||
1502 2014-07-15 18:19:27  is now known as ||!~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik|jg_quote
1503 2014-07-15 18:19:30 <jg_quote> Hi Jeff Garzik,
1504 2014-07-15 18:19:30 <jg_quote> I'm a researcher studying Bitcoin network transaction and block propagation delays at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and was wondering if you could add one or more of my nodes to all responded from your DNS seed. They will be forwarding transactions and will also help add to the stability of the Bitcoin network.
1505 2014-07-15 18:19:30 <jg_quote> Additionally, it would be useful if you could provide a list of the IPs making requests to your service so we could do additional studies in Bitcoin usage across the globe.
1506 2014-07-15 18:19:36 jg_quote is now known as jgarzik
1507 2014-07-15 18:19:46 <jgarzik> sigh
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1509 2014-07-15 18:22:06 <GAit> he forgot to add "that would be great, thanks"
1510 2014-07-15 18:22:07 <petertodd> jgarzik: lol. At least at coinsummit the guy from coinometrics accepted that long-term his job needed to be made impossible. :)
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1512 2014-07-15 18:23:53 <Emcy> jgarzik his proposal seems dangerous........
1513 2014-07-15 18:24:15 <sipa> i really hate how dependent the ecosystem is on dns seeds
1514 2014-07-15 18:24:32 <sipa> but as long as it is, things like that seems dangerous
1515 2014-07-15 18:24:41 <gmaxwell> The behavior of bitcoinj is very concerning in particlar.
1516 2014-07-15 18:24:52 <Emcy> how other way to bootstrap p2p
1517 2014-07-15 18:24:57 <gmaxwell> But yea, hopefully we'll be able to have more alternatives to dnsseeds.
1518 2014-07-15 18:25:02 <Emcy> dns seeds only need to be used once
1519 2014-07-15 18:25:04 <sipa> *handwave*
1520 2014-07-15 18:25:05 <gmaxwell> Emcy: e.g. block based seeding will be helpful.
1521 2014-07-15 18:25:12 <sipa> bleh
1522 2014-07-15 18:25:18 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: whats up with the bitcoin-in-space thing these days?
1523 2014-07-15 18:25:22 <Emcy> whats that
1524 2014-07-15 18:25:28 <sipa> then a collusion attack can cause sybil attacks!
1525 2014-07-15 18:25:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: well not if its not the only mechenism, of course.
1526 2014-07-15 18:25:53 <gmaxwell> Emcy: e.g. allow miners to add a single node they know is reliable per block in the coinbases.
1527 2014-07-15 18:26:03 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, still moving along.  Deep Space Industries is proceeding on their $50k design contract, with results to be released publicly in August.  then, fund raising begins.
1528 2014-07-15 18:26:24 <BlueMatt> what kind of cost are you anticipating?
1529 2014-07-15 18:26:25 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, Super exciting that the cubesat appears to have capacity sufficient to independently verify the block chain
1530 2014-07-15 18:26:27 <Emcy> how are you supposed to get blocks without bootstrapping
1531 2014-07-15 18:26:28 <jgarzik> no need to trust ground
1532 2014-07-15 18:26:36 <jgarzik> Emcy, load blocks right before launch
1533 2014-07-15 18:26:50 <Emcy> blocks from where?
1534 2014-07-15 18:26:54 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, $2.5m for 3-sat demo, $8.6m for 24-sat optimal coverage
1535 2014-07-15 18:26:58 <jgarzik> Emcy, from me :)
1536 2014-07-15 18:26:59 <BlueMatt> Emcy: cubesats =D
1537 2014-07-15 18:27:07 <Emcy> wavy hands
1538 2014-07-15 18:27:38 <Emcy> do cubesat tho
1539 2014-07-15 18:27:45 <Emcy> is cool
1540 2014-07-15 18:27:47 <gmaxwell> Emcy: the issue is partitioning/sybil.  The idea there is that you might get partitioned at start, but will learn nodes from blocks. So an attacker would have to cut off the chain far in the past to deny you finding out about those nodes.
1541 2014-07-15 18:27:49 <petertodd> jgarzik: you know, I really am not seeing the value in having the sat do any more than basic anti-DoS checking that the block headers are valid
1542 2014-07-15 18:28:02 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1544 2014-07-15 18:28:10 <gmaxwell> but without authentication it's not that useful since a network attacker could simply "be" every node on the network.
1545 2014-07-15 18:28:11 <Emcy> gmaxwell i see
1546 2014-07-15 18:29:16 Application has joined
1547 2014-07-15 18:29:40 <petertodd> Emcy: keep in mind that bitcoin is basically a way to approximate a censorship-proof network by guaranteeing that you'll know if you are being censored if you a) know the current time, and b) your attacker doesn't have a lot of hashing power
1548 2014-07-15 18:31:07 <maaku> jgarzik: should the sat just deliver SPV blocks, for future compatability?
1549 2014-07-15 18:31:23 <sipa> "SPV blocks", headers you mean?
1550 2014-07-15 18:31:29 <maaku> no validation
1551 2014-07-15 18:31:49 <maaku> but don't store old stale blocks
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1553 2014-07-15 18:33:00 <jgarzik> the sat can bootstrap trust less, and has more than enough storage for the full chain.  However, normal sat operation just broadcasts the latest block(s) and TXs, so that data is largely invisible and in theory can be pruned.
1554 2014-07-15 18:33:25 kermit has joined
1555 2014-07-15 18:33:44 <maaku> jgarzik: well pruning was a tangent. i mean isn't it better to *not* do validation, so you are not required to keep the software up to date?
1556 2014-07-15 18:33:50 <jgarzik> But it is useful to keep our options open:  given the transmitters, we might be able to manage multiple channels across the spread spectrum, whereby you serve older blocks
1557 2014-07-15 18:34:19 <jgarzik> maaku, I would not call that "better" just cheeper ;p
1558 2014-07-15 18:34:22 <jgarzik> cheaper
1559 2014-07-15 18:34:43 <sipa> it is more future-proof
1560 2014-07-15 18:34:46 <jgarzik> maaku, part of the value is that the software can be updated rapidly, after sats go into space
1561 2014-07-15 18:34:51 <sipa> ok
1562 2014-07-15 18:34:54 <maaku> better in the sense that it stays useful even if firmware updates are no longer possible
1563 2014-07-15 18:35:02 <maaku> jgarzik: sats fail :P
1564 2014-07-15 18:35:14 <hearn> jgarzik: what kind of aerial setup do you need?
1565 2014-07-15 18:35:19 <petertodd> maaku: cubesats have lifetimes of just a few months too
1566 2014-07-15 18:35:21 <jgarzik> sure.  cubesat lifetime is small.  we are talking 2-3 years, not decades.
1567 2014-07-15 18:35:28 <jgarzik> petertodd, these are at least 2 years
1568 2014-07-15 18:35:30 <maaku> i worked with planetary scientists at nasa and so much of their work is engineering around failed parts on satellites
1569 2014-07-15 18:35:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: ah, that's better
1570 2014-07-15 18:35:48 <jgarzik> lucky maximum 5-7 years
1571 2014-07-15 18:36:05 <petertodd> jgarzik: what's the cost/month compared to just using digital tv broadcasting sats like those norweigans did?
1572 2014-07-15 18:37:14 <maaku> petertodd: doesn't have global coverage...
1573 2014-07-15 18:37:32 <helo> $10m for 2 years of satellite coverage?
1574 2014-07-15 18:37:42 <petertodd> maaku: their one doesn't, but you can buy global coverage by renting multiple downlink channels
1575 2014-07-15 18:37:51 <maaku> although maybe someone can look at how much it costs to get one band of iridium or something...
1576 2014-07-15 18:38:06 <petertodd> maaku: figured IIRC was $5k/month for all of europe, so probably similar on a per-continent basis
1577 2014-07-15 18:38:19 <hearn> much though i love all this stuff - who is going to listen in to these broadcasts? anyone?
1578 2014-07-15 18:38:31 __nskelsey__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1579 2014-07-15 18:38:38 <petertodd> maaku: right, I'm *sure* I remember iridium offering a cheap low-capacity broadcast downlink option that'd be good enough for block headers, basically a global pager service
1580 2014-07-15 18:38:39 <maaku> hearn: i would hope that infrastructure people would
1581 2014-07-15 18:38:46 <maaku> e.g. coinbase, mining pools, etc.
1582 2014-07-15 18:38:50 <hearn> why?
1583 2014-07-15 18:39:16 <berndj-blackout> think of it as insurance
1584 2014-07-15 18:39:21 <maaku> prevent network partition attack
1585 2014-07-15 18:40:04 <petertodd> well, from a mining pool's perspective it only fully helps if they can upload blocks to the sat too :) not unreasonable though with a custom-built sat, though I suspect iridium will again be cheaper
1586 2014-07-15 18:40:09 <hearn> i am skeptical this will seem to be a high priority to them
1587 2014-07-15 18:40:14 <hearn> cool though it would be
1588 2014-07-15 18:40:15 <maaku> since iridium has gone through bankruptsy already but all the sats are up, there isn't really costs to recoup... if you could find a bitcoin-friendly person and whatever org manages it, it might be a good option
1589 2014-07-15 18:40:36 <jgarzik> petertodd, leased capacity will be cheaper.  This cubesat project is "bitsat mission B1 & B2"    BitSat mission A1, running in parallel, means to explore leasing existing satellite capacity to accomplish the same thing.
1590 2014-07-15 18:40:49 <jgarzik> petertodd, so, compare leased capacity to owning our own sats
1591 2014-07-15 18:41:13 __nskelsey__ has joined
1592 2014-07-15 18:41:17 <jgarzik> leased capacity:  cheaper + easier to censor.  Somebody somewhere doesn't like bitcoin?  switch is flipped and you're stuck.
1593 2014-07-15 18:41:32 <jgarzik> own constellation:  more expensive + more difficult to censor.  Upgradable to cool stuff.
1594 2014-07-15 18:42:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, well that's a decent approach then
1595 2014-07-15 18:42:04 <jgarzik> petertodd, I want to do both.  Leasing capacity is pretty cheap and should be pursued.
1596 2014-07-15 18:42:37 <jgarzik> petertodd, launching our own sats just takes a lot more planning, a lot more time, a lot more fund raising, yadda yadda.
1597 2014-07-15 18:42:44 <jgarzik> oh, and it's more flashy and cool.
1598 2014-07-15 18:42:47 <petertodd> jgarzik: I take it the scheme is going to be that there is no authentication on uploads to the sat, beyond it being a valid block? (by some definition of valid)
1599 2014-07-15 18:42:56 <Emcy> jgarzik are you proposing a sat that broadcasts a static portion of the chain over and over
1600 2014-07-15 18:43:00 <jgarzik> But yes, bitSat mission A1 (leasing) should be pursued.
1601 2014-07-15 18:43:10 <Emcy> and another with a downlink for chain head
1602 2014-07-15 18:43:38 <jgarzik> petertodd, I do want  an additional digital auth envelope, meaning the ground stations must be trusted
1603 2014-07-15 18:43:49 <jgarzik> petertodd, otherwise you get into security by obscurity
1604 2014-07-15 18:44:01 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hopefully multisig.
1605 2014-07-15 18:44:02 <jgarzik> jamming remains an issue (and security by obscurity)
1606 2014-07-15 18:44:19 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'd strongly suggest you just accept any valid block, so that even the ground stations can't prevent the sats from functioning
1607 2014-07-15 18:44:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Doesn't seem necessary, if the sat is fully evaluating uploaded block anyway?
1608 2014-07-15 18:44:29 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure they can, gam the signature.
1609 2014-07-15 18:44:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: oh evaluting the whole block?  okay. previously it had just been headers.
1610 2014-07-15 18:44:58 <gmaxwell> petertodd: someone can always just jam the uplink.
1611 2014-07-15 18:45:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, yah, that's the big advancement.  sat most likely has capacity to evaluate whole block post-uplink.
1612 2014-07-15 18:45:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: since these aren't geostationary sats they'll be somewhat jamming resistent, just upload from a different part of the world
1613 2014-07-15 18:45:59 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in the long term unlimited budget thing you can potentially do optical uplink with a very narrow beamwidth. that is basically jamming immune without a flying platform to block it.
1614 2014-07-15 18:46:13 <hearn> what is the threat model here?
1615 2014-07-15 18:46:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: but e.g. having 5 geographically distribted jammers isn't a big barrier.
1616 2014-07-15 18:46:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed, but gotta start somewhere
1617 2014-07-15 18:46:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: 5 > 1 :)
1618 2014-07-15 18:47:12 <jgarzik> yah, model is:
1619 2014-07-15 18:47:25 <jgarzik> multiple ground stations, legally & geographically distributed.  each with their own digital key to upload.
1620 2014-07-15 18:47:41 <jgarzik> multiple satellites, inter-linked amongst themselves, fully validating uplinked blocks
1621 2014-07-15 18:48:04 <gmaxwell> hearn: my thought was a ... wealthy attacker seeks to partition one or more high value targets in order to cause false confirmations or just deny access to the network. Potentially a single rogue state level attacker.
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1625 2014-07-15 18:48:44 <gmaxwell> hearn: and assuming said attacker is already a local network attacker for the target(s) in question.
1626 2014-07-15 18:49:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: inter-linking sats? what's the approach there? easy for that to add quite a bit to your mass budget if it forces you into having a second antenna
1627 2014-07-15 18:49:14 <gmaxwell> there is some justification for attack model creep simply to motivate more people to have recievers for the system.
1628 2014-07-15 18:49:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: iridium does that extensively.
1629 2014-07-15 18:49:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yes, and iridum sats weigh hundreds of pounds :)
1630 2014-07-15 18:49:49 <berndj-blackout> iridium doesn't consist of cubesats
1631 2014-07-15 18:50:02 <jgarzik> petertodd, coverage coverage coverage
1632 2014-07-15 18:50:16 OrvilleWright has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!)
1633 2014-07-15 18:50:23 <jgarzik> petertodd, one GS uplinks a block in africa, you don't want to wait for other sats to get it from ground
1634 2014-07-15 18:50:25 <hearn> gmaxwell: this seems to depend a lot on how easy it is to plug in an aerial. otherwise local government attack blocks port 8333 and proxies, and simply bans the receiving equipment
1635 2014-07-15 18:50:31 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, so sat-to-sat distance is small enough that weak signal will reach the next sat over
1636 2014-07-15 18:50:36 <hearn> eg. blocks imports at the border and restricts in-country sales
1637 2014-07-15 18:50:58 <gmaxwell> hearn: right, in _theory_ it's possible to make recievers that are hard to ban (see XM) but that requires a huge power budget on the sat.
1638 2014-07-15 18:51:03 <jcorgan> hearn: my plan is to have a GNU Radio softare-based receiver with an SDR peripheral
1639 2014-07-15 18:51:10 melvster has joined
1640 2014-07-15 18:51:28 <hearn> jcorgan: what is such a peripheral like?
1641 2014-07-15 18:51:34 <jgarzik> hearn, RE aerial setup, probably a small dish.  if unlucky, a large dish.  if lucky, a dongle/CDMA chip and no dish.
1642 2014-07-15 18:51:36 <gmaxwell> yea, $25 DVB dongle plus a directtv dish+LNB.
1643 2014-07-15 18:51:37 * hearn is imagining some kind of little dish or something
1644 2014-07-15 18:51:46 <jgarzik> hearn, that's the last to be decided in the system.
1645 2014-07-15 18:51:51 <jcorgan> something like the Ettus Research USRP or the cheap RTLSDR if possible
1646 2014-07-15 18:51:59 Klumben has joined
1647 2014-07-15 18:51:59 <jgarzik> want to make it as cheap as possible
1648 2014-07-15 18:52:13 <petertodd> hearn: there's a big problem in brazil(?) right now with pirate satellite usage - basically a lot of old sats had zero authentication, and people like truck drivers and so on use them as a cb radio replacement, among other things. they've had very little success in blocking the flood of radio gear
1649 2014-07-15 18:52:18 <gmaxwell> the problem with the RTLSDR dongles is that they have really crappy osc.
1650 2014-07-15 18:52:31 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1651 2014-07-15 18:52:41 <jcorgan> yep
1652 2014-07-15 18:52:47 <jgarzik> Use cases for any satellite setup:  (1) anti-censorship, (2) mitigating local attacks, (3) providing full feed in cases where bandwidth expensive or non-existent
1653 2014-07-15 18:52:53 <jgarzik> and several other minor use cases
1654 2014-07-15 18:52:56 <gmaxwell> (also no IMD immunity, but less of an issue if you're using a direct tv dish and LNB as your antenna)
1655 2014-07-15 18:53:00 <jcorgan> but they are good enough for 1 Mcps GPS L1 reception, so that's a good sign
1656 2014-07-15 18:53:14 <jgarzik> In the best case, it could widen full-feed bitcoin user base
1657 2014-07-15 18:53:20 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1658 2014-07-15 18:53:20 <hearn> jgarzik: would it allow uplink of transactions too or just broadcast?
1659 2014-07-15 18:53:35 <jgarzik> hearn, read-only
1660 2014-07-15 18:53:41 <jgarzik> hearn, need a 37coin SMS or something to send
1661 2014-07-15 18:53:53 <hearn> or just HTTPS POST to websites running a proxy PHP script
1662 2014-07-15 18:53:54 <jgarzik> (37coin == bitcoin on feature phones)
1663 2014-07-15 18:53:57 <jgarzik> hearn, yes
1664 2014-07-15 18:54:06 <hearn> seems like it's easier to detect block chain downloading than tx uploading with dpi
1665 2014-07-15 18:54:25 <jgarzik> yep.
1666 2014-07-15 18:54:34 <jgarzik> radio or satellite, it is tough to detect who is getting the blockchain
1667 2014-07-15 18:54:47 <jgarzik> (terrestrial radio, I meant)
1668 2014-07-15 18:55:50 Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1669 2014-07-15 18:55:56 <jcorgan> it's conceivable to have new TX submission by an HF burst broadcast, with receivers within a wide propagation envelope
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1677 2014-07-15 18:57:56 <hearn> it would definitely seem advantageous to be able to re-use satellite tv receiving equipment as that's quite widely used throughout the world and i suppose, hard to ban as a result
1678 2014-07-15 18:58:15 <hearn> or dtt receiving equipment, same deal i guess
1679 2014-07-15 18:58:30 gabridome has joined
1680 2014-07-15 18:58:59 <jcorgan> the kryptoradio folks are doing this with a terrestrial DVB-T station in Finland, encoding the blockchain in an MPEG-TS datastream
1681 2014-07-15 18:59:06 <jcorgan> (will be doing)
1682 2014-07-15 18:59:10 <jgarzik> hearn, absolutely.  Off the shelf or already-in-your-hands clearly preferred
1683 2014-07-15 18:59:33 <jgarzik> hearn, fewer issues with tech import in restrictive countries
1684 2014-07-15 18:59:36 Zarutian has joined
1685 2014-07-15 18:59:36 <jcorgan> but getting a DVB-T waveform out of a cubesat is a...non-starter
1686 2014-07-15 18:59:46 postpre has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1687 2014-07-15 19:00:07 <petertodd> jcorgan: curious, what's the technical challenge there exactly?
1688 2014-07-15 19:00:11 <jcorgan> mostly power
1689 2014-07-15 19:00:24 * jgarzik curses his lack of plutonium
1690 2014-07-15 19:00:30 <jcorgan> it has a fairly high SNR requirement at the receiver
1691 2014-07-15 19:00:36 <petertodd> jcorgan: right, as in DVB-T just needs a lot of transmit power no-matter what?
1692 2014-07-15 19:00:40 <jcorgan> right
1693 2014-07-15 19:00:42 <SomeoneWeird> jgarzik: o.O
1694 2014-07-15 19:00:50 <hearn> do you need to reuse mpeg-ts though?
1695 2014-07-15 19:00:54 <hearn> can you just reuse the bits of metal?
1696 2014-07-15 19:00:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: next time make it clear you mean the type that's hot, not the type that goes boom
1697 2014-07-15 19:01:07 <hearn> i mean, the aerial/dish is the big/bulky/hard to hide thing
1698 2014-07-15 19:01:28 <hearn> you can probably ship usb dongles or little boxes that do the decoding inside other objects, in suitcases, ship them via customs pretending they're something else etc
1699 2014-07-15 19:01:46 <jgarzik> "Dear NASA, Need plutonium.  When you restock your supplies, ping me.  PS. Not the type that goes boom, the type that powers spacecraft with nuclear batteries"
1700 2014-07-15 19:02:07 <hearn> meanwhile, deep inside the NSA
1701 2014-07-15 19:02:22 <jcorgan> a computer in a Utah datacenter just beeped
1702 2014-07-15 19:02:22 <petertodd> jgarzik: sadly even NASA can't get enough - they've had to cancel/scale-back missions because of it
1703 2014-07-15 19:02:22 <hearn> $match = regexp(/plutonium/, /boom/, /nuclear/)
1704 2014-07-15 19:02:32 cagedwisdom has joined
1705 2014-07-15 19:02:33 <hearn> if ($match) alert_drone($ip_address)
1706 2014-07-15 19:02:52 * petertodd votes s/Bitcoin Core/Bitcoin Plutonium Core/
1707 2014-07-15 19:04:59 <jgarzik> hearn, I'm into:  3D printing, drones, bitcoin, ICBMs (space rockets) and plutonium (space batteries).
1708 2014-07-15 19:05:05 <jgarzik> maybe I should change my name to Abu Garzik
1709 2014-07-15 19:05:42 <hearn> abu garzik! he's on a sort of jihad against high transaction fees
1710 2014-07-15 19:07:09 <jgarzik> "He's bombing blockchain inefficiencies and beheading high TX fees left and right"
1711 2014-07-15 19:07:10 * hearn tries saying "ok google, how much is $100 in bitcoin"
1712 2014-07-15 19:07:17 <hearn> it works! at last
1713 2014-07-15 19:07:34 <petertodd> jgarzik: I sense a new meme
1714 2014-07-15 19:07:40 CheckDavid has joined
1715 2014-07-15 19:08:29 <Emcy> hearn google copied that from ddg
1716 2014-07-15 19:08:29 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1717 2014-07-15 19:09:06 <hearn> duckduckgo? it's primarily a bing proxy, so to be accurate, they copied that from bing. not that it's exactly an innovative idea. i was pushing for it 3 years ago
1718 2014-07-15 19:09:24 <dhill> i miss scroogle
1719 2014-07-15 19:09:30 <petertodd> jgarzik: of course, also remember you're probably just one or two hops removed from jacob appelbaum, julian assange, cody wilson, amir taaki, richard stallman...
1720 2014-07-15 19:09:31 <Emcy> everything about ddg is great except its search results
1721 2014-07-15 19:09:51 <hearn> yes stallman, that well known terrorist ...
1722 2014-07-15 19:09:57 <jgarzik> petertodd, I've used tor for years...  instant flagging
1723 2014-07-15 19:10:01 <Emcy> hearn ddg bangs are its own invention
1724 2014-07-15 19:10:11 <hearn> i mean his beard is terrifying all by itself
1725 2014-07-15 19:10:17 <berndj-blackout> and a linux developer - total extremist there
1726 2014-07-15 19:10:47 <Emcy> people like stallman really  are on a list
1727 2014-07-15 19:10:53 <Emcy> as are most of you i wager
1728 2014-07-15 19:11:00 <jgarzik> I tend to think Julian and Cody are full of themselves.  Amir is smart but naive; seems to have more sense than Cody at least.
1729 2014-07-15 19:11:12 <hearn> i built one of the systems at google they dedicated an entire presentation section to their reverse engineering of
1730 2014-07-15 19:11:24 <hearn> so i can practically guarantee i'm on one of their lists
1731 2014-07-15 19:11:30 * hearn has a piece of sticky tape over his webcam when it's not in use
1732 2014-07-15 19:11:33 <petertodd> hearn: heh, in person you realize how he's far more moderate and reasonable than he's portrayed as, and I say that as someone who said "Linux" rather than "GNU/Linux" to him
1733 2014-07-15 19:11:36 <jgarzik> Stallman is a far-left nutter who is scary smart
1734 2014-07-15 19:12:09 <Emcy> hearn can i ask, were google engineers really surprised NSA were slurping after you strip SSL on the front end?
1735 2014-07-15 19:12:11 <Emcy> i mean really?
1736 2014-07-15 19:12:14 <hearn> yeah
1737 2014-07-15 19:12:16 <hearn> really
1738 2014-07-15 19:12:21 <Emcy> why
1739 2014-07-15 19:12:22 <Emcy> its obvious
1740 2014-07-15 19:12:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: nah, I think Cody has more sense than Amir
1741 2014-07-15 19:12:38 <hearn> why? because the number of legal requests for info they were making kept going up every year
1742 2014-07-15 19:12:50 <hearn> intuitively you'd expect requests to go down if they were taking the info they wanted directly
1743 2014-07-15 19:12:54 <Emcy> just naivete then?
1744 2014-07-15 19:13:00 <jgarzik> Re FLOSS, consider this:  The CFAA.  Consider  a terrorist comes to a Linux meet-up, asks me to install Linux.  I do, not knowingly he's a terrrrist.  I may be prosecuted under CFAA and other statutes anyway.
1745 2014-07-15 19:13:10 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1746 2014-07-15 19:13:12 * jgarzik and others worried a bit about that, years ago
1747 2014-07-15 19:13:28 <jgarzik> lawyers were consulted at various Linux companies, legal strategies formed, etc.
1748 2014-07-15 19:13:51 <Emcy> hearn oh well at least we got that neat little face out of it
1749 2014-07-15 19:14:01 <hearn> Emcy: in hindsight, yes. at the time it was believed private fiber was secure. no big internet companies encrypted all internal traffic.
1750 2014-07-15 19:14:01 <Emcy> :^)
1751 2014-07-15 19:14:16 <hearn> google did encrypt some of it though. and all of it on some fibres that were suspected to be bad e.g. china transit
1752 2014-07-15 19:14:28 <Emcy> hm
1753 2014-07-15 19:14:33 <hearn> that's why we/they were able to encrypt all of it everywhere within a month or two
1754 2014-07-15 19:14:41 <Emcy> so google just beleived USG wouldnt do something like that
1755 2014-07-15 19:14:42 <hearn> it was "just" a matter of finding X cpu cores
1756 2014-07-15 19:14:56 <hearn> where X is very large
1757 2014-07-15 19:15:00 <dhill> i just can't get RMS eating his feet out of my head
1758 2014-07-15 19:15:18 <Emcy> was there any blowback on the private fibre providers
1759 2014-07-15 19:15:42 <Emcy> like, google saying fuck it we will run it all ourselves
1760 2014-07-15 19:15:48 <hearn> Emcy: s/USG/western governments/. look at it this way. if they have a good reason to get some data, they get a warrant and receive the data in a useful, readable form. the contents of those wires is not documented, constantly changing, practically indecipherable without access to internal source code. it makes no logical sense for them to try and read it.
1761 2014-07-15 19:15:49 <petertodd> dhill: well, that's the austistic spectrum for you... by reasonable I mainly mean political views
1762 2014-07-15 19:15:50 <hearn> at least that's the theory
1763 2014-07-15 19:16:10 <Emcy> yet they did
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1765 2014-07-15 19:16:13 <hearn> now we know about their "take it all and damn the consequences" mentality, yes, things are obviously different
1766 2014-07-15 19:16:25 <Emcy> funny thing is
1767 2014-07-15 19:16:26 <dhill> and then someone goes and makes http://rms.sexy
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1769 2014-07-15 19:16:45 <Emcy> and utter tinfoil from anytime before 2013 could have told you that was their position ;)
1770 2014-07-15 19:16:54 <hearn> Emcy: google *does* run private fiber themselves! the third party companies just provide the physical wires. the lasers on each end are run by the company, in most cases
1771 2014-07-15 19:17:08 <petertodd> hearn: what level of protection does google has from internal exploitation? ie with the NSA being able to exploit firmware bugs on a very wide scale, how likely is it that the encryption tech for this fiber is actually working?
1772 2014-07-15 19:17:09 <dhill> sipa: will your multiple-peer download branch skip slow peers?
1773 2014-07-15 19:17:13 <hearn> Emcy: that is the fiber taps are most likely to have been carried out by actually splicing the glass under the cover of a cable cut or something equally covert
1774 2014-07-15 19:17:29 <Emcy> quantum crypto when
1775 2014-07-15 19:17:30 <gmaxwell> hearn: or were always spliced the whole time.
1776 2014-07-15 19:17:33 <hearn> right
1777 2014-07-15 19:17:35 <hearn> or that
1778 2014-07-15 19:17:51 <Emcy> i read they can bend the fibre
1779 2014-07-15 19:17:55 <Emcy> till it leaks
1780 2014-07-15 19:18:02 <petertodd> Emcy: yup, standard practice actually
1781 2014-07-15 19:18:13 <Emcy> annoying shit
1782 2014-07-15 19:18:28 <Emcy> dirty business
1783 2014-07-15 19:18:37 <petertodd> Emcy: I mean, heck, I personally know people who've done that to tap fiber lines for debugging
1784 2014-07-15 19:19:00 <petertodd> Emcy: keeping physical infrastructure secure is really, really, really difficult when it's not being actively monitored
1785 2014-07-15 19:19:11 <hearn> petertodd: it's all custom code with a custom key distribution system. i think they'd find it quite hard to break unless they had bad insiders in high places.
1786 2014-07-15 19:19:18 <Emcy> sea cables have snesors
1787 2014-07-15 19:19:38 <Emcy> hearn we know they do trun employees
1788 2014-07-15 19:19:42 <hearn> petertodd: that said, google was exploited before by china in 2010. back then they weren't really including governments in their threat model though.
1789 2014-07-15 19:19:46 <jgarzik> /me just sort of assumed the splice was in place as the cable gets laid
1790 2014-07-15 19:19:54 <petertodd> hearn: right, however you can assume there is a non-zero # of insiders, so the nsa almost certainly has their source code and custom hardware designs
1791 2014-07-15 19:19:55 <hearn> so it's very hard to know. you have two extremely good teams facing off against each other
1792 2014-07-15 19:20:01 <Emcy> give them a clearance and payroll, and they cant say a word to anyone about it
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1794 2014-07-15 19:20:17 <hearn> well as the source code was also replicated across those fibres, yes, the assumption is the source is compromised. but the crypto is sound. knowing how it works wouldn't help you
1795 2014-07-15 19:20:37 <berndj-blackout> hearn: and one team has the rules rigged in favour of it
1796 2014-07-15 19:20:47 <petertodd> hearn: yeah, which leaves exploiting the code - if it's custom that's quite possibly more likely
1797 2014-07-15 19:21:12 <hearn> it's pretty good code. mostly java and heavily stl-reliant C++. not many buffers. good use of abstractions like protobufs.
1798 2014-07-15 19:21:29 <hearn> the code was audited internally quite often but security bugs were mostly either logic level or XSS/XSRF web type stuff
1799 2014-07-15 19:21:36 <hearn> that said exploiting staff desktops is much easier of course
1800 2014-07-15 19:21:50 <petertodd> hearn: that's rather promising. any insight into their firmware quality? I understand most of the hardware is custom
1801 2014-07-15 19:21:56 <Emcy> was all of the us tech sector pretty much as naive as google was
1802 2014-07-15 19:21:57 <petertodd> yeah, assuming staff desktops have been exploited is reasonable
1803 2014-07-15 19:22:19 <hearn> anyway my inclination is that whatever they're doing is working, because there was a story in the UK media recently along the lines of "google and facebook are endangering national security because they stopped cooperating"
1804 2014-07-15 19:22:24 <Emcy> i mean MS has been around the block youd think........
1805 2014-07-15 19:22:32 <hearn> with gchq's previous level of access cooperation was rather unnecessary in most cases, i'd imagine ...
1806 2014-07-15 19:22:49 <petertodd> hearn: if I were them I would plant such a story :)
1807 2014-07-15 19:23:13 <hearn> Emcy: well i think it's easy to say in hindsight "oh it was all obvious etc" but if it was obvious, snowden would not have dominated the headlines for the past year. a lot of people found it very much non obvious.
1808 2014-07-15 19:23:34 <Emcy> i dont know if its that, or if we just didnt have solid proof before
1809 2014-07-15 19:23:44 <Emcy> like i say, the wildest of tinfoil wingnuts turned out to be right
1810 2014-07-15 19:24:08 <berndj-blackout> obvious to tinfoil hat people != obvious to regular people
1811 2014-07-15 19:24:17 <hearn> well there wasn't even any evidence. i mean, like i said, i was tech lead of one of the systems they were most interested in
1812 2014-07-15 19:24:21 <petertodd> Emcy: it was previously reasonable to assume these large agencies weren't breaking the law on such an enormous scale, and equally, weren't willing to risk destroying trust in the US tech industry
1813 2014-07-15 19:24:23 <hearn> (because it tracked people's login ip addresses)
1814 2014-07-15 19:24:40 <hearn> if we'd seen suspicious stuff suggesting bulk intercepts of those databases we'd have encrypted them sooner for sure
1815 2014-07-15 19:24:47 <hearn> but of course passive interception is all silent. you can't see it.
1816 2014-07-15 19:25:54 <petertodd> hearn: one of the interesting things to have come out is that much of the interception was anything but passive; presumably they kept to passive attacks on companies like google to avoid raising suspicions
1817 2014-07-15 19:26:11 <hearn> right. i think if they'd done a china they'd have been discovered eventually, especially post 2010
1818 2014-07-15 19:26:31 <hearn> the security team there is probably the best in the world, at least the best in the private sector.
1819 2014-07-15 19:26:44 <hearn> still, it's hard to know. the nsa's capabilities are impressive.
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1821 2014-07-15 19:27:19 <hearn> i mean, for all i know the workstations that were shipped to the offices were modified in transit, for example
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1824 2014-07-15 19:28:01 <hearn> the security guys there are mostly all software guys. if there was some kind of short-range radio taps on people's actual desktop hardware, perhaps it would not be detected
1825 2014-07-15 19:28:04 <petertodd> hearn: that's very, very likely. even worse is they have firmware level attacks that can go from computer to computer in things like USB dongles, or even just by exploiting bad wifi implementations.
1826 2014-07-15 19:28:19 <petertodd> right
1827 2014-07-15 19:28:37 <hearn> yes. well, google does run a lot of custom firmwares. especially in the datacenters but also in office environments. but of course, it's really hard to know for sure.
1828 2014-07-15 19:28:42 davispuh has joined
1829 2014-07-15 19:28:46 <hearn> a bigger problem right now is that they have most users passwords. i don't think the media has picked up on this.
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1831 2014-07-15 19:28:53 <berndj-blackout> jgarzik, this compromised hardware business reminds me that i like the idea of tinkerer-friendly HF/VHF better than "buy a LNB off the shelf, you have no hope of building one yourself" UHF+
1832 2014-07-15 19:29:09 <hearn> the data replication traffic they were tapping included password hashes. they could easily reverse most of them, then just log in as their target user.
1833 2014-07-15 19:29:20 <hearn> (for cases where they don't care about absolute stealth)
1834 2014-07-15 19:29:31 <petertodd> yup, many in the tor-type communities are using machines reflashed with open bios and similar, and there's a lot of excitement about the novena project
1835 2014-07-15 19:29:42 <Emcy> petertodd i would have thought you guys of all would know better than to assume rationality.......
1836 2014-07-15 19:29:43 <Emcy> lol
1837 2014-07-15 19:29:50 <jgarzik> berndj-blackout, Sadly, the more data bandwidth you need, the less tinkerer-friendly things become
1838 2014-07-15 19:29:56 <petertodd> Emcy: ?
1839 2014-07-15 19:29:57 <jgarzik> I think we need a header feed, in addition to full feed
1840 2014-07-15 19:30:02 <jgarzik> from space etc.
1841 2014-07-15 19:30:05 <petertodd> jgarzik: +1
1842 2014-07-15 19:30:16 <berndj-blackout> jgarzik, i understand. hence why i also prefer headers-only for this sort of thing
1843 2014-07-15 19:30:56 <hearn> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614137/Spy-chiefs-warn-PM-Internet-giants-including-Google-Facebook-shielding-terrorists-paedophiles.html
1844 2014-07-15 19:30:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: though I'd design it as a headers + 10k of coinbase feed if you can
1845 2014-07-15 19:31:14 <hearn> it's all mostly irrelevant anyway imo. western governments are extremely close to just forcing these companies to decrypt the wires again
1846 2014-07-15 19:31:30 <Emcy> " it was previously reasonable to assume these large agencies weren't breaking the law on such an enormous scale, and equally, weren't willing to risk destroying trust in the US tech industry"
1847 2014-07-15 19:31:34 ionstorm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1848 2014-07-15 19:31:35 <hearn> i mean, from their POV, they weren't overthrown in bloody revolution post snowden so now totalitarian surveillance is "legitimised"
1849 2014-07-15 19:31:54 <hearn> "The source added that a key bone of contention was the internet service providers’ unwillingness to hand over encryption keys that unlock data being sought by law enforcement agencies. The source added: ‘It is not simply about terrorism; it’s about serious crime, including paedophiles and gangland crime bosses.’"
1850 2014-07-15 19:31:55 <Emcy> frankly i hope the us tech sector takes a hit of tens of billions
1851 2014-07-15 19:31:58 <Emcy> money talks
1852 2014-07-15 19:32:04 <petertodd> Emcy: if there was effective oversight I'd argue that was a perfectly reasonable position.
1853 2014-07-15 19:32:08 <petertodd> Emcy: it already has
1854 2014-07-15 19:32:10 <jgarzik> petertodd, My ideal fat block header is block header + full txid list + coinbase TX
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1856 2014-07-15 19:32:20 <Emcy> make its hundreds of bn then
1857 2014-07-15 19:32:24 <Emcy> until somthing changes
1858 2014-07-15 19:32:41 * jgarzik even messed around with doing UDP broadcasts of this "fat block header"
1859 2014-07-15 19:32:48 <petertodd> Emcy: things are certainly changing, whether they will change enough is as-yet unknown
1860 2014-07-15 19:33:07 <jgarzik> UDP hacks URL: https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/tree/udp  (very outdated)
1861 2014-07-15 19:34:12 <Emcy> google enabling paedoterrorism again
1862 2014-07-15 19:34:18 <Emcy> the feinds
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1867 2014-07-15 19:34:53 <Emcy> hearn do they really have all the PW hashes? fuck
1868 2014-07-15 19:35:26 <Emcy> i asusme google uses a world class hash scheme
1869 2014-07-15 19:35:41 <petertodd> Emcy: there is no such thing beyond purpose-built HSM's
1870 2014-07-15 19:35:45 <Emcy> but most passwords are like bigboy7
1871 2014-07-15 19:36:04 * sipa changes password
1872 2014-07-15 19:36:15 <petertodd> Emcy: e.g. YubiHsm http://www.yubico.com/products/yubihsm/
1873 2014-07-15 19:37:22 <Emcy> hearn youre right. Nothing can withstand the glare of hte daily mail. They will probbaly force them to decrypt the wires again soon.
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1875 2014-07-15 19:37:47 <Emcy> things are getting uncomfortable
1876 2014-07-15 19:38:15 <petertodd> Emcy: note how this shows that more than anything these agencies really fucked up: if they hadn't broken the law on a huge scale it'd be a lot easier to keep things decrypted
1877 2014-07-15 19:38:33 <Emcy> i dont think the did break the law
1878 2014-07-15 19:38:44 <Emcy> which is an even bigger problme
1879 2014-07-15 19:38:54 <petertodd> Emcy: they did by reasonable interpretations of it, particularly the one most people have
1880 2014-07-15 19:39:19 <hearn> in the usa the guy who authored the PATRIOT act said they did
1881 2014-07-15 19:39:32 <hearn> i guess it doesn't get more authoritative than the actual creator of the law
1882 2014-07-15 19:39:34 <Emcy> most people arnt the spooks, who have their own interpretations and definitions of the english language now
1883 2014-07-15 19:39:42 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1884 2014-07-15 19:40:22 <hearn> in the UK the government just sees to be in total denial. senior ministers are still saying things like "There is no programme of mass surveillance and there is no surveillance state,"
1885 2014-07-15 19:40:25 <hearn> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28006739
1886 2014-07-15 19:40:35 <petertodd> Emcy: like the question "what exactly is the bitcoin protocol?", what exactly is the right interpretation of the law is subject to popular opinion
1887 2014-07-15 19:40:41 <hearn> i mean they're just flatly denying reality in public over and over again. it's quite amazing to watch
1888 2014-07-15 19:41:07 <Emcy> hearn its the Big Lie
1889 2014-07-15 19:41:13 <Emcy> its not a new thing
1890 2014-07-15 19:41:27 <petertodd> hearn: and encouraging, means we're up against fallible human beings rather than geniuses
1891 2014-07-15 19:41:58 <hearn> i would never have classed the people who run uk/usa as "geniuses" :)
1892 2014-07-15 19:42:09 <ahmed_> hearn: tbf as a brit myself. our goverment are complete and utter retards
1893 2014-07-15 19:42:14 <hearn> heck a lot of the recent stuff about gchq tools is just regular spambots actually. the sort of stuff that used to be my bread and butter
1894 2014-07-15 19:42:17 <Emcy> they actually acknowledged snowdens existence in that press conf about #DRIP
1895 2014-07-15 19:42:22 <Emcy> so thats progress i guess...
1896 2014-07-15 19:42:41 <Emcy> btw DRIP is passing right nnow
1897 2014-07-15 19:43:04 <sipa> i think this is getting offtopic
1898 2014-07-15 19:43:09 <petertodd> hearn: having actually talked to insiders in these agencies about this, I'll tell you that one of the surprisingly damaging things the leaks have done is make it very clear that the stuff they're doing isn't particularly special, just very well-funded
1899 2014-07-15 19:43:12 <waxwing> sipa, lol
1900 2014-07-15 19:43:31 <Emcy> petertodd right, theyre not gods
1901 2014-07-15 19:43:34 <petertodd> hearn: it's horrible for recruiting new people when you can't offer the chance to work on Magic
1902 2014-07-15 19:43:39 <Emcy> and in a lot of ways they have it easy
1903 2014-07-15 19:43:52 <hearn> i read somewhere that the NSA requires people who leave to clear their CVs and that office had seen a spike in exits
1904 2014-07-15 19:43:54 <hearn> i believe that
1905 2014-07-15 19:44:01 <Emcy> the internet could look almost as if it was designed to be easy to tap, really
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1907 2014-07-15 19:44:27 <andytoshi> when i do a bunch of `getheaders` calls, it seems like bitcoind is jumping back to the genesis at some points where it shouldn't be
1908 2014-07-15 19:44:38 <petertodd> Emcy: exactly! with the budget they have if anything the results are kinda disappointing - nothing they've shown hasn't already been demo'd in public. their only advantage is the huge amount of time they can pay to work on the exploits
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1910 2014-07-15 19:45:01 <sipa> andytoshi: if no matching txid can be found, it jumps back to genesis yes
1911 2014-07-15 19:45:13 <sipa> as that's the last known common txid in that case
1912 2014-07-15 19:45:19 <andytoshi> sipa: yeah, but i'm giving it its own hashes as locators
1913 2014-07-15 19:45:23 <hearn> petertodd: ah well remember edgehill/bullrun. those are still the giant question marks.
1914 2014-07-15 19:45:29 <petertodd> hearn: yeah, the local agency, CSIS, tried to recruit me last year a bit after the snowden leaks, and the guy I talked to admitted they were already seeing a drop in recruitment, as well as a bunch of people leaving
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1918 2014-07-15 19:45:51 <andytoshi> and when i do `bitcoin-cli getblock [hash]` on all my locators, they show up
1919 2014-07-15 19:45:51 <Emcy> petertodd still, i think a bit of a war of crypto attrition is prob our best shot :/
1920 2014-07-15 19:45:58 <sipa> andytoshi: odd
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1925 2014-07-15 19:46:27 <Emcy> if people are leaving agencies they should take stuff with them........
1926 2014-07-15 19:46:29 <hearn> i imagine a solid 12 months of incredibly bad press will have some kind of negative effect. otoh the EFF said they visited a convention for mathematics and the NSA stand was doing a roaring trade. so perhaps not.
1927 2014-07-15 19:46:43 <sipa> andytoshi: which commit is bitcoind on? we may have had a bug recently that influences this
1928 2014-07-15 19:47:30 <Emcy> hearn the "apolitical" geniuses who love "interesting problems" are the most dangerous people alive
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1930 2014-07-15 19:47:37 <jgarzik> andytoshi, interesting
1931 2014-07-15 19:47:40 <sipa> #bitcoin, please
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1933 2014-07-15 19:47:44 <Emcy> oppenheimer learned that
1934 2014-07-15 19:47:44 <jgarzik> andytoshi, I saw same with my picocoin stuff
1935 2014-07-15 19:47:51 <petertodd> hearn: the math side of things is interesting because often those people have *very* few other job opportunities, e.g. network modeling
1936 2014-07-15 19:47:53 <jgarzik> trying to convert to headers-first from full-sync
1937 2014-07-15 19:47:55 gst has joined
1938 2014-07-15 19:47:59 <petertodd> but yeah, @sipa hath spoken :)
1939 2014-07-15 19:48:07 <jgarzik> CBlockLactor seemed to be stupid
1940 2014-07-15 19:48:10 <jgarzik> bt I figured it was my error
1941 2014-07-15 19:48:12 <andytoshi> sipa: 3faf1f82
1942 2014-07-15 19:48:18 <Emcy> lol i though tthis was bitcoin
1943 2014-07-15 19:48:39 <andytoshi> i guess i should fix my own code because it does stupid things when you give it a block it already knows of..
1944 2014-07-15 19:49:11 weilu has joined
1945 2014-07-15 19:49:22 <sipa> andytoshi: i broke it in #4420 (c9a0918330f31dcb1d5e86b56af63c3f521d3cf2), fixed it in #4470 (3c85d2ec37c3725e407649e487fbeb2a36606d74)
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1948 2014-07-15 19:49:37 <andytoshi> cool, thx sipa, i'll fix my code then pull the latest bitcoind
1949 2014-07-15 19:50:00 <sipa> andytoshi: yup, you're exactly on a broken version
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1951 2014-07-15 19:50:14 <andytoshi> :)
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