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 163 2014-07-21 04:26:06 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, it would be so nice if tv_nsec was guaranteed to be < 1m
 164 2014-07-21 04:26:13 <phantomcircuit> in practice it always is
 165 2014-07-21 04:26:20 <Luke-Jr> it's not a guarantee?
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 167 2014-07-21 04:26:35 <Luke-Jr> just think, if POSIX were tonal, the guarantee would be inherent in the type!
 168 2014-07-21 04:26:45 <phantomcircuit> heh
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 198 2014-07-21 05:09:43 <wumpus> BlueMatt: he is pretty close, so it's best to coordinate with him first if you intend to make changes, to make sure that you don't do overlapping things
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 200 2014-07-21 05:11:29 <wumpus> @cfields
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 228 2014-07-21 05:51:54 <wumpus> BlueMatt: of course, in the meantime fixing disk space problems will still make sense...
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 231 2014-07-21 05:55:02 <BlueMatt> wumpus: afiu, the latest rash of changes were not disk-space-related?
 232 2014-07-21 05:55:12 <BlueMatt> I didnt dig in deep, but the logs mentioned nothing about disk space
 233 2014-07-21 05:55:54 <BlueMatt> I was asking before digging in because it may take some time and simply not be worth it (can we live without pull-tester until cfields finishes up?)
 234 2014-07-21 05:57:31 <wumpus> we can't really live without pulltester, not even for a day
 235 2014-07-21 05:58:17 <BlueMatt> is it still failing atm?
 236 2014-07-21 05:58:31 <wumpus> not sure; I just pushed something so we'll see in a moment
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 266 2014-07-21 07:06:41 <wumpus> BlueMatt: it works
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 268 2014-07-21 07:07:23 <bombsite> hi
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 271 2014-07-21 07:07:39 <bombsite> I'm looking for sipa
 272 2014-07-21 07:07:47 <bombsite> I was reading one of your issues about refactoring
 273 2014-07-21 07:07:52 <bombsite> that was from december
 274 2014-07-21 07:08:10 lclc has joined
 275 2014-07-21 07:09:09 <bombsite> Also have a question about the legality of writing open-source code while employed as a software engineer
 276 2014-07-21 07:09:16 <bombsite> :/
 277 2014-07-21 07:09:20 <gmaxwell> you can generally trust that if its discussed in here sipa will see it.
 278 2014-07-21 07:10:45 <gmaxwell> bombsite: depends on where you live, and what agreement you have with your employer. Ideally you should have an agreement that permits you to do so— though in many places employers cannot encumber what you do on your own time, with your own equipment— regardless of any contract... this isn't the best place for that kind of advice though, you might want to try #fsf
 279 2014-07-21 07:12:35 <bombsite> hmm, I'm in california
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 304 2014-07-21 08:07:27 <gwillen> gmaxwell: unfortunately I think what you say is not _quite_ true; at least in CA, your employer can still encumber your own stuff, if it's within the current or demonstrably anticipated line of business of the company (or something like that)
 305 2014-07-21 08:07:41 <gwillen> i.e. if your employer is google, "software" is something you can't do on your own time without your employer owning it :-P
 306 2014-07-21 08:08:07 <t7> not sure thats true
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 308 2014-07-21 08:09:16 <gwillen> t7: the bit about "software" is me being slightly sarcastic
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 311 2014-07-21 08:10:06 <gwillen> t7: what california law says is "when the invention was conceived or “reduced to practice” (actually created or a patent application filed) it related to the employer’s business or actual or “demonstrably anticipated” research or development"
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 313 2014-07-21 08:10:27 <gwillen> t7: the trick being the google's actual or demonstrably anticipated R&D includes essentially all of software
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 315 2014-07-21 08:10:46 <t7> i see i see
 316 2014-07-21 08:10:48 <gwillen> t7: for example, they take the official position that their employees may not write phone apps of any kind for any platform without permission
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 318 2014-07-21 08:10:53 <gwillen> or google owns the result
 319 2014-07-21 08:10:53 <wumpus> please move this discussion somewhere else
 320 2014-07-21 08:10:57 <gwillen> sorry
 321 2014-07-21 08:11:05 <wumpus> for something on-topic see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4566
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 323 2014-07-21 08:12:27 <gwillen> wumpus: 'fairly selected' is rather vague; also DNS TTLs of less than one minute are ignored by some resolvers (e.g. Windows at least at one point in time)
 324 2014-07-21 08:12:51 <gwillen> (The rule of thumb I heard was that if it's under 30 minutes, Windows will ignore it)
 325 2014-07-21 08:12:58 <wumpus> gwillen: agreed; 'fairly selected' should be better defined
 326 2014-07-21 08:13:22 <wumpus> gwillen: as for the DNS TTL, it is forbidden for it to be less than one minute, so if windows ignores it that's even better
 327 2014-07-21 08:13:24 <gwillen> oh, sorry, may NOT be served
 328 2014-07-21 08:13:29 <gwillen> please forgive me, I'm very tired. :-)
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 331 2014-07-21 08:15:49 <wumpus> we should also add a link to bitcoin-seeder as a reference implementation that implements 'fair selection'
 332 2014-07-21 08:16:04 <gmaxwell> gwillen: right, it's not super rigid— I think we think some diversity in how dnsseeds work is good, but there are some things which are right out. Since most of this can't be actually checked/enforced there is an assumption of basic honesty in this.
 333 2014-07-21 08:16:13 * gwillen nods.
 334 2014-07-21 08:17:18 <gmaxwell> and maybe sometimes otherwise honest people do stupid things because they haven't thought through the consequences— which is mostly what this is supposted to be about. Making sure the expectations are clear. "thou shall not use this to spy on users or to attempt to partition the network"
 335 2014-07-21 08:17:51 <gwillen> aha, *nods*.
 336 2014-07-21 08:18:08 <jcorgan> TL;DR: the State of California inserts itself, uninvited, into any agreement you make between employer and employed--consult with a competent attorney before entering into any employment agreement.
 337 2014-07-21 08:18:32 <gwillen> there is no state that fails to do so :-P
 338 2014-07-21 08:18:44 drizztbsd has joined
 339 2014-07-21 08:18:46 <gwillen> (but wumpus already poked us for being off-topic with this topic.)
 340 2014-07-21 08:19:14 <jcorgan> sorry, unto #bitcoin we go
 341 2014-07-21 08:19:50 <wumpus> it's not about bitcoin either, a US law-specific channel like #fsf, as gmaxwell suggested, would be better
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 345 2014-07-21 08:22:53 <gmaxwell> (in particular the #fsf recommendation was becuase the person was asking about contributing to open source software, and I know this is a FAQ in those circles)
 346 2014-07-21 08:23:51 <wumpus> right
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 374 2014-07-21 09:02:55 <gmaxwell> Anyone have a UPNP enabled natted host that has never run bitcoin? trying to figure out what I can realisticaly test with the no-whatismyip patch.
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 378 2014-07-21 09:11:00 <drizztbsd> you can ask your ip address using UPNP :P
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 388 2014-07-21 09:17:44 <wumpus> drizztbsd: indeed; although that doesn't help in the natted non-UPNP cases in which a port was manually forwarded
 389 2014-07-21 09:18:20 <drizztbsd> and what about using ICE or STUN?
 390 2014-07-21 09:18:29 <wumpus> ...wut?
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 393 2014-07-21 09:20:06 <gmaxwell> drizztbsd: I'm not asking for how to determine an IP. I'm trying to figure out which test cases I can realistically include on a test plan and get them covered.
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 415 2014-07-21 10:04:53 <wumpus> shouldn't -logtoconsole log to stdout *as well as* file, instead of log only to stdout?
 416 2014-07-21 10:05:35 <gmaxwell> hm. I've used it before because I didn't want the logs going to disk. Though logically that could just as well be a second option.
 417 2014-07-21 10:06:02 <wumpus> why wouldn't you want logs going to disk?
 418 2014-07-21 10:06:19 <wumpus> anyhow, not a big issue, I just thought it was weird
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 420 2014-07-21 10:06:51 <wumpus> will just keep using tail -f 
 421 2014-07-21 10:06:53 <gmaxwell> wumpus: in my case because I was running a bunch of debugging on a host with not much space remaining.
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 424 2014-07-21 10:07:39 <gmaxwell> (or not wanting to thrash your SSD with writes I guess,  or generally— because you're using stdout to send it to some other log handling thing)
 425 2014-07-21 10:07:59 <wumpus> yes, never mind
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 484 2014-07-21 12:21:21 <buZz> what technical reasons are there to not run multiple wallets with the same private keys imported?
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 489 2014-07-21 12:23:39 <jaakkos> buZz: not a question for -dev. fwiw, that *will* get you screwed. thing is, wallets generate *new* private keys for the change BTC amount when you do transactions, and the other wallets will not know about those.
 490 2014-07-21 12:24:08 <buZz> oh sorry .. i wanted to know the technical reason, i understand the change address reason
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 493 2014-07-21 12:25:23 <buZz> i just assumed this channel would be more applicable, but forgive me :)
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 501 2014-07-21 12:28:36 <wumpus> buZz: if you really need to share a wallet between multiple locations you must use a deterministic wallet with a suitable lookahead
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 505 2014-07-21 12:29:05 <buZz> what does that fix?
 506 2014-07-21 12:29:13 <hearn> hello
 507 2014-07-21 12:29:26 <jaakkos> buZz: then the newly generated private keys are the same for all wallets
 508 2014-07-21 12:29:35 <buZz> ahhhh right
 509 2014-07-21 12:30:23 <wumpus> all wallets will generate the same keys, so they don't have to exchange information
 510 2014-07-21 12:31:24 <hearn> buZz: electrum and bitcoinj (git master) are examples of such wallets.
 511 2014-07-21 12:31:25 <wumpus> otherwise an active synchronization process for keys is needed, which is obviously possible too
 512 2014-07-21 12:31:38 <hearn> buZz: (with caveats)
 513 2014-07-21 12:32:06 <buZz> well thats to keep change 'inside' i guess
 514 2014-07-21 12:32:08 <wumpus> but if you get anything wrong it can be dangerous
 515 2014-07-21 12:32:25 <buZz> unless you set change address to the one address thats already inside
 516 2014-07-21 12:32:59 <wumpus> yes, cycling the same N receiving addresses forever is also 'deterministic'
 517 2014-07-21 12:33:15 <buZz> ah of course
 518 2014-07-21 12:33:17 <hearn> buZz: it's not only about change but receiving money
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 520 2014-07-21 12:33:33 <hearn> buZz: your wallet needs to know what keys to search for in the stream of transactions.
 521 2014-07-21 12:34:13 <buZz> obviously, but if you 'fix' the change address to a single one, nothing else would make new addresses, right?
 522 2014-07-21 12:34:21 <wumpus> but reusing addresses makes accounting more difficult, is worse for privacy, and is slightly less secure, so you should use a real deterministic wallet
 523 2014-07-21 12:34:44 <buZz> ! how is it less secure?
 524 2014-07-21 12:34:45 <gribble> Error: "how" is not a valid command.
 525 2014-07-21 12:34:51 <buZz> gribble: thanks ...
 526 2014-07-21 12:35:42 <wumpus> you can find all those answers on the internet
 527 2014-07-21 12:35:43 <hearn> in theory, if a break in ECDSA was found that worked on pubkeys, the fact that keys are only revealed in hashed form until they're used would be beneficial
 528 2014-07-21 12:35:55 <wumpus> this is about the 10000th time that has been asked here
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 530 2014-07-21 12:36:19 <hearn> in practice it makes little or no difference, because if ECDSA breaks then bitcoin would suffer critical confidence issues anyway. also we use RIPEMD160 which is a very old hash function
 531 2014-07-21 12:36:46 <hearn> i would consider RIPEMD160 to be more likely to be weak than ECDSA. but it's the sort of discussion for academic cryptographers, i think
 532 2014-07-21 12:36:47 <wumpus> it's just better to not reuse addresses, do so at your own peril
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 535 2014-07-21 12:42:23 <wumpus> hearn: it doesn't have to be ecdsa itself that is broken, but the danger of an implementation problem in ecdsa (such as reusing a nonce) is also amplified
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 538 2014-07-21 12:43:23 <pigeons> which has happened and people lost money as a result. i know most people know this but for buZz's benefit
 539 2014-07-21 12:43:28 <hearn> even with hashing, if an ecdsa implementation is broken you could race real transactions as they propagate across the network to try and steal the coins. i'm not sure bitcoin can survive a break in ecdsa even if all public keys are only used once.
 540 2014-07-21 12:43:48 <hearn> pigeons: AFAIK that's incorrect. there have been no cases where nonce reuse was a problem but the underlying keys were OK
 541 2014-07-21 12:43:58 <hearn> i might have missed an incident though
 542 2014-07-21 12:44:15 <sipa> nonce reuse has happened, and coins have been stolen because of it
 543 2014-07-21 12:44:23 <sipa> but only a few cases
 544 2014-07-21 12:44:30 <hearn> yes, but in those cases the underlying keys were also weak and hashing wouldn't have helped.
 545 2014-07-21 12:44:30 <pigeons> not nonce reuse, but implementation problem such as predictable k and the damage amplified by addres reuse
 546 2014-07-21 12:44:45 <hearn> at least for the cases i'm familiar with
 547 2014-07-21 12:44:49 <hearn> oh and hi sipa :)
 548 2014-07-21 12:45:24 <wumpus> anyhow let's just not try to defend lazy practices by stating they could be worse
 549 2014-07-21 12:46:07 <hearn> i think you underestimate the amount of work involved in not reusing keys, ever. i do not anticipate key reuse disappearing any time soon, i'm afraid
 550 2014-07-21 12:46:15 <hearn> even with BIP32 wallets becoming more popular.
 551 2014-07-21 12:46:34 <Luke-Jr> buZz: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address_reuse
 552 2014-07-21 12:47:03 <hearn> most obviously, wallets i'm aware of or at least are in wide use attempt to store all keys in memory e.g. to display in the UI
 553 2014-07-21 12:47:09 <hearn> or to send to the server or calculate bloom filters.
 554 2014-07-21 12:47:12 <wumpus> sometimes it is worth to do some work to do things properly
 555 2014-07-21 12:47:25 <hearn> but .... memory is finite. on desktop machines with swap you can sort of pretend memory is infinite even though it's not, and just accept terrible performance.
 556 2014-07-21 12:47:39 <hearn> on mobiles you don't get that luxury. if you run out of memory you get OOM killed.
 557 2014-07-21 12:47:51 <buZz> ty!
 558 2014-07-21 12:47:58 <wumpus> keys just take up a few bytes, this is 2014
 559 2014-07-21 12:48:01 <drizztbsd> use the swap luke
 560 2014-07-21 12:48:01 <hearn> hence the need for key expiry and other things, which in turn means we need wide usage of bip 70
 561 2014-07-21 12:48:06 <Luke-Jr> hearn: discard keys once they're used
 562 2014-07-21 12:48:21 <hearn> a key never stops being used with today's model. you don't know if a user handed it out and someone else stored it in their address book.
 563 2014-07-21 12:48:30 <drizztbsd> some web wallets generates a new address every time
 564 2014-07-21 12:48:35 <drizztbsd> to discurage it
 565 2014-07-21 12:48:35 <hearn> with BIP70 there's a fix for that but of course it's a slow rollout. not every wallet author implements it yet.
 566 2014-07-21 12:48:41 <Luke-Jr> hearn: today's model makes no guarantee you can reuse it.
 567 2014-07-21 12:49:01 <hearn> but in practice no wallets today expire keys. so users expectation is that they are reusable.
 568 2014-07-21 12:49:05 <Luke-Jr> if a user sends you bitcoins twice using the same address, they've just lost the second one to confirm.
 569 2014-07-21 12:49:06 <wumpus> and I'm not sure it's needed to store all keys in memory at all, you could give out keys and tell people to only use them once
 570 2014-07-21 12:49:11 <wumpus> then scan the old keys periodically
 571 2014-07-21 12:49:19 <wumpus> (for the cases that someone stupidly did send to them twice)
 572 2014-07-21 12:49:49 <hearn> "scanning the old keys periodically" still requires you to be able to do that, even if the keys don't all fit in RAM.
 573 2014-07-21 12:49:59 <wumpus> or just wait for them to mention that they send to an old address, and only then scan their used address
 574 2014-07-21 12:50:18 <hearn> i mean, it's easy to complain and say wallet implementors are all lazy, but these sorts of things are real issues all wallet devs have been hitting
 575 2014-07-21 12:51:25 <wumpus> hearn: sure the worst-case scenario is the most difficult, writing a wallet that needs to handle millions of keys on a memory-constrained device
 576 2014-07-21 12:51:26 <hearn> yeah, well that's possible if you have a block explorer handy. otherwise you can't just scan an address. you have to scan a segment of the chain forward using filtering. that's slow if it's a large possible period of time. not to mention that "hey I'm still waiting for the work, I sent you money" "huh it never turned up" is a terrible user experience that would just appear broken to people
 577 2014-07-21 12:51:38 <Luke-Jr> it's not a real issue if you simply discard an address after it's been used once in a confirmed transaction
 578 2014-07-21 12:51:58 <hearn> yeah, sure, which is why BIP70 has an expiry time in it. exactly so we can manage memory in this way.
 579 2014-07-21 12:52:08 <Luke-Jr> an expiry time isn't needed in most cases
 580 2014-07-21 12:52:36 <drizztbsd> Luke-Jr: and what do you do with mining pools?
 581 2014-07-21 12:52:52 <hearn> well, you go ahead and make a wallet that appears to regular users to just randomly break for no reason and see how competitive it is.
 582 2014-07-21 12:53:21 <hearn> wumpus: i don't think you need millions of keys to start hitting problems unfortunately, but we haven't tested to see how far we can go yet.
 583 2014-07-21 12:53:35 <Luke-Jr> drizztbsd: fix them
 584 2014-07-21 12:54:04 <hearn> wumpus: it's also a matter of e.g. startup time, bloom filter calculation time, keys in ram take up more memory than just raw bytes on disk because of the overhead of object representation and so on. plus quite a few cheap/old phones give you 32mb of ram for everything, that includes all app data, code and artwork.
 585 2014-07-21 12:54:09 <hearn> so yeah - pretty tricky.
 586 2014-07-21 12:54:14 <Luke-Jr> hearn: you could always use a tree of bloom filters if you really have problems
 587 2014-07-21 12:54:16 <hearn> i haven't yet implemented wraparound for bitcoinj but probably will have to
 588 2014-07-21 12:54:59 <Luke-Jr> have a bloom filter for each year, then within those each month, then each day, etc as needed
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 591 2014-07-21 12:55:37 <hearn> yes there are usually technical solutions to all these problems. but they tend to be complicated. it's very far from "lazy devs don't care about privacy or security"
 592 2014-07-21 12:55:49 <wumpus> hearn: well anyhow, maybe for heavy usage on small embedded devices you have a reason to sometimes reuse addresses... but that's stil not an excuse for the practice in common usage
 593 2014-07-21 12:55:52 <hearn> for instance bloom filters have to be size matched, at least to be used on the same connection
 594 2014-07-21 12:57:00 <wumpus> I suppose the general cases are either servers with lots of memory and high workloads, or small devices with occasional workloads
 595 2014-07-21 12:57:33 <hearn> you have desktops where they have lots of memory and occasional workloads too. i think we can make the most progress there. but you still have the problem of infinite growth fitting into non-infinite resources
 596 2014-07-21 12:57:44 <hearn> it just changes the timeframe in which you'd hit problems
 597 2014-07-21 12:57:53 <hearn> s/desktops/desktops and laptops/
 598 2014-07-21 12:57:57 <wumpus> if you want to use your el cheapo android phone to handle millions of transactions, well then maybe you should just invest in technology...
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 600 2014-07-21 12:58:19 <hearn> current android phones start running out of RAM after around 30-40,000 outputs, unfortunately
 601 2014-07-21 12:58:28 <wumpus> nothing is *infinite*, that's a strawman argument, the block chain is limited too
 602 2014-07-21 12:58:34 <hearn> that's just for the transaction data. mostly this only happens because bitcoinj doesn't prune transaction data down, and ideally it would.
 603 2014-07-21 12:58:57 <hearn> ok sure. the key stream is not really infinite. so the question is, does your hardware scale faster than your bitcoin usage.
 604 2014-07-21 12:59:09 <hearn> not sure where those two graph lines cross, needs measurement and simulation
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 607 2014-07-21 13:03:44 <wumpus> well sure, watching a growing number of keys forever will run into scaling problems at some point, but the proper solution to that is a key expiration (or: archival) policy, not reuse
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 611 2014-07-21 13:04:56 <Luke-Jr> funny how hearn is trying to justify reuse with reuse
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 613 2014-07-21 13:05:31 <hearn> Luke-Jr: how do you mean? i'm explaining it, not "trying to justify it". you can ignore the engineering realities if you like, but that won't change the level of address reuse we see on the real network.
 614 2014-07-21 13:06:06 <hearn> wumpus: yes indeed. and for that we need to break the paradigm of people storing addresses in "address books". unfortunately we have no compelling replacement today.
 615 2014-07-21 13:06:10 <wumpus> there is no ignoring going on here, just proposing better solutions
 616 2014-07-21 13:06:21 <epscy> does somebody measure that? (address reuse on the network)
 617 2014-07-21 13:06:29 <hearn> perhaps the diffie-hellman in BIP70 / stealth address proposals can help (if implemented)
 618 2014-07-21 13:06:37 <hearn> but we need a lot more infrastructure to make that work
 619 2014-07-21 13:06:39 <Luke-Jr> hearn: reuse will stop quite quickly if it stops working, I think.
 620 2014-07-21 13:06:43 <jgarzik> I thought it was agreed that Bitcoin Wallet on Android address reuse was bad
 621 2014-07-21 13:06:47 <jgarzik> and were moving to HD?
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 623 2014-07-21 13:06:59 <hearn> it is moving to HD. however it will likely still reuse addresses sometimes (wraparound)
 624 2014-07-21 13:07:08 <hearn> as will likely all mobile wallets
 625 2014-07-21 13:07:24 <jgarzik> RE storage cap, there is plenty of storage room of keys, and RAM for signing.  Backing up is more of an issue.
 626 2014-07-21 13:07:38 <hearn> Luke-Jr: threats are pointless. you can't change the amount of RAM in phones by breaking bitcoin for ordinary users.
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 628 2014-07-21 13:08:02 <Luke-Jr> hearn: what?
 629 2014-07-21 13:08:03 <hearn> jgarzik: well, you'd be surprised .... i've optimised where i can by e.g. rederiving private keys on the fly and only storing public keys in memory.
 630 2014-07-21 13:08:25 <hearn> jgarzik: but mobiles don't give you much memory. you can't use all the ram on the device. you get a tiny subset of it
 631 2014-07-21 13:08:29 <hearn> that's how they make multitasking fast.
 632 2014-07-21 13:08:35 <jgarzik> of course
 633 2014-07-21 13:09:09 <hearn> Luke-Jr: you were suggesting mining pools stop address reuse from "working", no?
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 635 2014-07-21 13:10:14 <hearn> anyway, we need to measure in various profiles and see how many keys can fit. currently we're waiting for the new bouncy castle to release. the current bottleneck is cpu not ram.
 636 2014-07-21 13:10:17 <Luke-Jr> hearn: no, I was suggesting wallets stop monitoring addresses after they've been used/confirmed
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 638 2014-07-21 13:10:22 <hearn> Luke-Jr: oh, i see, sory.
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 641 2014-07-21 13:10:45 <hearn> Luke-Jr: yes but no wallet dev will do that. it'd break how people use wallets in the real world. the trend is the opposite - wallets are currently competing on their address book implementations
 642 2014-07-21 13:10:48 <Luke-Jr> hearn: although Eligius has in the past filtered out reuse, and could do so again if someone takes the effort to address the issues in that patch
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 644 2014-07-21 13:11:19 <buZz> i would like to see 'want to save' as option on 'getnewaddress'
 645 2014-07-21 13:11:21 <hearn> Luke-Jr: with things like linking addresses to phone numbers and so on. people want the ability to send money to a name/face and wallet devs are trying to provide that within the current protocol constraints.
 646 2014-07-21 13:11:27 <buZz> so i can use temporary accounts
 647 2014-07-21 13:11:39 <Luke-Jr> hearn: well, then we need to ostracate wallets which encourage broken behaviour; I already encourage people not to use such broken wallets.
 648 2014-07-21 13:11:55 <hearn> still, i think we're going to impose a two-week lifetime on refund addresses in bip70 or something like that.
 649 2014-07-21 13:12:13 <hearn> so there will be slow and steady progress towards optimising address re-use. but it'll always be an optimisation problem i think.
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 651 2014-07-21 13:13:08 <jgarzik> just talk to miners about requiring a higher fee for dumb, anti-privacy policies like this and the rest will sort itself out
 652 2014-07-21 13:13:29 <hearn> ah yes, the whole "lazy devs just need to be given an incentive"
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 654 2014-07-21 13:13:40 <hearn> why does this keep coming up when - reality check - bitcoin core is not even HD and nobody even started?
 655 2014-07-21 13:13:43 <epscy> not sure relying on miners to be civic minded is going to work
 656 2014-07-21 13:13:45 <hearn> you don't make progress by punishing users
 657 2014-07-21 13:13:52 <Luke-Jr> hearn: Bitcoin Core never reuses addresses, nor encourages it
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 659 2014-07-21 13:14:29 <jgarzik> hearn, furthermore, sipa has already started, PRs exist
 660 2014-07-21 13:14:47 <hearn> no, it just risks users destroying their money instead. i've actually encountered a relatively high profile user of Core who was making nightly wallet backups, but using up more keys per day than the default keypool size. disaster could have struck at any moment.
 661 2014-07-21 13:15:03 <Luke-Jr> you don't need HD wallets to avoid address reuse. you need HD wallets to avoid regular backups.
 662 2014-07-21 13:15:32 <Luke-Jr> hearn: really? more than 100 txn per day?
 663 2014-07-21 13:15:36 <hearn> yep
 664 2014-07-21 13:15:44 <Luke-Jr> hearn: sounds like we should increase the default keypool size then
 665 2014-07-21 13:15:49 <hearn> quite possibly!
 666 2014-07-21 13:15:54 <hearn> i certainly advised them to
 667 2014-07-21 13:15:56 <wumpus> bitcoin core is also not where wallet innovation happens
 668 2014-07-21 13:16:15 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: dunno, at this point it's better than most others IMO
 669 2014-07-21 13:16:36 * Luke-Jr wonders how to measure a reasonable keypool size
 670 2014-07-21 13:17:44 <wumpus> also, I've proposed multiple times to make keypool refill manual instead of automatic, so that a sane backup policy can be enforced
 671 2014-07-21 13:18:26 <wumpus> there is even a pull implementing that option somewhere
 672 2014-07-21 13:18:32 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I like the idea, but it's crufty - might end up with idiots reusing addresses just to avoid it :/
 673 2014-07-21 13:19:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well it would just fail if the keypool is exhausted; same as now happens in that case if you request a new key with an encrypted wallet 
 674 2014-07-21 13:19:16 <Luke-Jr> and unnecessary for HD wallets, which hopefully we'll get soon
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 676 2014-07-21 13:19:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but for the non-HD wallet case it'd be the only way to be safe
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 678 2014-07-21 13:20:20 <Luke-Jr> hm
 679 2014-07-21 13:20:34 <Luke-Jr> unrelated: is EC encryption safe to reuse keys for?
 680 2014-07-21 13:20:37 <wumpus> the way it works currently is grossly irresponsible
 681 2014-07-21 13:20:54 * Luke-Jr ponders encrypting metadata and automating backups of it every time it changes
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 686 2014-07-21 13:22:21 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I suppose the crufty edges of a manual refill are reasonably acceptable as soon as we can tell end users to upgrade to HD wallets to avoid it
 687 2014-07-21 13:23:26 <Luke-Jr> lol reddit "If security wasnt good enough for web-wallets they wouldnt exist."
 688 2014-07-21 13:27:35 <hearn> that transition would have to be carefully managed. otherwise a lot of people would upgrade Core and discover their app/exchange/pool had broken.
 689 2014-07-21 13:27:51 <hearn> but yes it's probably a good idea/safer than the current arrangement
 690 2014-07-21 13:28:48 <wumpus> hearn: it would have been an option anyhow
 691 2014-07-21 13:29:08 <wumpus> which defaults to the current way for backwards compatibility
 692 2014-07-21 13:29:15 <hearn> yeah
 693 2014-07-21 13:29:43 <hearn> or it could just wrap around and start reusing addresses once the keypool is exhausted, until a new backup is made, which grows the pool and makes a backup simultaneously.
 694 2014-07-21 13:30:28 <wumpus> no, it won't wrap around
 695 2014-07-21 13:31:32 <wumpus> I'm against address reuse and anyhow that would mess up expectations even more; what if you use the receiving address to keep track of payments in some other db!
 696 2014-07-21 13:31:51 <hearn> that is true
 697 2014-07-21 13:31:55 <wumpus> better to just fail so that some admin gets page
 698 2014-07-21 13:31:59 <hearn> reuse would also be an api change
 699 2014-07-21 13:32:33 <Luke-Jr> reuse is broken behaviour. it should never happen.
 700 2014-07-21 13:32:38 <Luke-Jr> if it happens, something is broken
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 703 2014-07-21 13:33:43 <hearn> i think i prefer the term suboptimal to broken, but whatever.
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 708 2014-07-21 13:53:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it might be good to explicitly mention the all-to-often requests for adding a static node to results for "research" in the DNSSeed policy, just so people know up front there's no exception (or if there is, what the rules are)
 709 2014-07-21 13:53:26 <Luke-Jr> all-too-often*
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 713 2014-07-21 13:56:05 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: agreed; that is part of 'unfair' node selection
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 715 2014-07-21 13:56:24 <hearn> sipa: just wanted to double check that it was indeed a bug and not an issue with how i am using the coins api
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 748 2014-07-21 15:05:09 <dgenr8> if address reuse is ever going to stop working, sooner would be better because the social patterns are being established.
 749 2014-07-21 15:08:02 <dgenr8> when someone gives you an address, you would start to protect it until paying to it.  you don't want someone else mucking it up
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 754 2014-07-21 15:11:48 <epscy> i don't really see how it's possible to enforce not reusing addresses
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 756 2014-07-21 15:14:31 <Eliel_> epscy: simple, make a network rule that only one transaction is valid per address.
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 759 2014-07-21 15:15:13 <Luke-Jr> Eliel_: that can't be a network rule without burdening nodes
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 761 2014-07-21 15:15:38 <Luke-Jr> miners can deprioritise/filter it, and wallets can skip looking for it..
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 766 2014-07-21 15:19:46 <Eliel_> if the only goal is to minimize the amount of people who'd even attempt reusing addresses, all you need is to make the network rule apply for n-blocks, where n is sufficiently big that people won't bother keeping addresses they can't send to.
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 771 2014-07-21 15:23:50 <cfields> BlueMatt: it's going to be at least another week until I can begin deploying my work. I'm going to need a few things from gavin, and he's currently away
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 773 2014-07-21 15:24:18 <cfields> *deploying for real. I'll be testing/simulating in the meantime
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 788 2014-07-21 15:35:50 <hearn> BlueMatt: I think cfields is working on making it run on Jenkins. the java side itself isn't changing.
 789 2014-07-21 15:35:55 <hearn> though i'm working on it a little bit at the moment
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 791 2014-07-21 15:36:20 <cfields> yep, just build-side for me. runtime checks are all you guys :)
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 801 2014-07-21 15:52:23 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: a list of 34-byte addresses could hold a heck of a lot of them.  I think it would have fit in 1G at the start of this year.
 802 2014-07-21 15:53:09 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: they're only 20 bytes really
 803 2014-07-21 15:53:25 <Luke-Jr> in theory one could use a bloom filter too, although then there's a risk of false positives
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 805 2014-07-21 15:53:54 <dgenr8> probably still fits in 1G them
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 808 2014-07-21 15:58:19 <Luke-Jr> I think so
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 938 2014-07-21 17:50:47 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: what's wrong with BIP38?
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 941 2014-07-21 17:52:44 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: it represents a single EC private key, which is not sufficient for offline storage, and encourages end-user key management which itself has numerous problems
 942 2014-07-21 17:53:02 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: it probably wouldn't even be a BIP had the idea followed proper procedures
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 945 2014-07-21 17:55:27 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: understandable
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 978 2014-07-21 18:37:03 <AmThatsMe> Hey everyone
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 982 2014-07-21 18:39:23 <AmThatsMe> I'm having some problems debugging the reference code (Unit tests). I'm using Eclipse on OSX, i configured the build with ./configure --enable-debug=true to add debug flags to the make files. When i mark a row with a breakpoint i get one of 2 things : 1) source not found OR 2) breakpoint cannot be installed.  Anyone has some suggestions or can help ?
 983 2014-07-21 18:39:46 Malakai33 has joined
 984 2014-07-21 18:40:06 <sipa> sorry, i'm not familiar with eclipse for C++ development
 985 2014-07-21 18:40:08 <sipa> in gdb it works
 986 2014-07-21 18:41:00 <Luke-Jr> AmThatsMe: =true is wrong
 987 2014-07-21 18:41:04 <Luke-Jr> just --enable-debug
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 991 2014-07-21 18:48:31 <AmThatsMe> sipa: do u debug in gdb command line ? or use something like cgdb ?
 992 2014-07-21 18:48:39 <sipa> command line
 993 2014-07-21 18:48:54 <AmThatsMe> Luke-jr: ok thanks, i will try it !
 994 2014-07-21 18:50:17 <AmThatsMe> ok, thanks sipa
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 997 2014-07-21 18:55:40 <jcorgan> speaking of debugging, i know real men use gdb command-line, but i'd be happy to have some of gdb's commands automated.  there used to be (i guess still is) something called 'ddd' that was a nice graphical shell around gdb.
 998 2014-07-21 18:56:05 <jcorgan> any others like that?
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1003 2014-07-21 19:02:56 <wumpus> well if you want to automate things gdb has a pretty nice python interface
1004 2014-07-21 19:03:58 <wumpus> it allows programatically executing almost all of the gdb commands, including nesting into data structures, getting values, stepping, etc
1005 2014-07-21 19:04:44 <wumpus> and it even works for remote debugging sessions
1006 2014-07-21 19:06:02 <jcorgan> hmm, will look into that.
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1009 2014-07-21 19:10:23 <wumpus> also the TUI mode is nice in gdb
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1015 2014-07-21 19:13:33 <jcorgan> TIL
1016 2014-07-21 19:13:52 <jcorgan> normally use emacs gdb mode, but this looks better
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1040 2014-07-21 19:48:39 <cronus> why does importaddress take so long to run?
1041 2014-07-21 19:50:23 <cronus> in fact im not sure its even working, just hangs
1042 2014-07-21 19:51:46 <sipa> it needs to rescan the entire blockchain for transactions affecting the imported address
1043 2014-07-21 19:51:54 Adlai has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1044 2014-07-21 19:52:00 <sipa> it may take 20 minutes
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1048 2014-07-21 20:01:51 <cronus> even with rescan=false?
1049 2014-07-21 20:02:23 <cronus> if I know its a brand new address that has 0 transactions
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1053 2014-07-21 20:07:04 <sipa> with rescan false, it shouldn't take too long
1054 2014-07-21 20:08:24 <cronus> hm still seems to take too long to wait synchronously before returning the address to an enduser for payment.  Seems like only solution would be to pre-generate and import a pool of addresses and constantly refill asynchronously
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1056 2014-07-21 20:08:41 <sipa> define 'too long' ?
1057 2014-07-21 20:08:56 <cronus> well its been over 3 minutes and its still going
1058 2014-07-21 20:09:07 <cronus> if its triggered by an http request it’s going to time out
1059 2014-07-21 20:09:08 <sipa> what's the exact request you're sending?
1060 2014-07-21 20:09:24 <sipa> if it's more than ~seconds, there's something wrong
1061 2014-07-21 20:09:45 <cronus> oh ok then maybe its scanning, the bitcoin-cli isn’t really clear on how to use it
1062 2014-07-21 20:10:12 <cronus> ive tried a couple ways importaddress address mylabel false   and   importaddress mylabel rescan=false
1063 2014-07-21 20:10:25 <cronus> er that second one is missing the address
1064 2014-07-21 20:10:29 <cronus> but it’s not clear which way to do it
1065 2014-07-21 20:10:32 <cronus> neither seem to work then
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1068 2014-07-21 20:11:34 <sipa> bitcoin-cli importaddress address label false
1069 2014-07-21 20:11:59 <cronus> yeah thats the first thing i tried
1070 2014-07-21 20:12:33 <sipa> you didn't forget the label?
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1072 2014-07-21 20:12:42 <cronus> nope
1073 2014-07-21 20:12:49 <cronus> ./bitcoin-cli importaddress 16kBbmD6SWXoUmfxWgLxhCyFWS4YARp1Wt label false
1074 2014-07-21 20:12:53 <cronus> still running..minutes later
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1076 2014-07-21 20:14:20 <sipa> oh, importaddress
1077 2014-07-21 20:14:52 <cronus> ?
1078 2014-07-21 20:15:01 <sipa> i thought you were talking about importprivkey
1079 2014-07-21 20:15:07 <sipa> but it should be identical for importaddress
1080 2014-07-21 20:15:18 <sipa> if it's not, and you can reproduce it, please file a bug
1081 2014-07-21 20:15:43 <sipa> (which is very new, so it may have quirks)
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1083 2014-07-21 20:16:13 <cronus> yeah maybe the option to not rescan is being ignored or something? or is that too trivial
1084 2014-07-21 20:17:22 <sipa> the code looks correct at first glace
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1086 2014-07-21 20:17:30 <sipa> but i haven't tested it
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1088 2014-07-21 20:19:09 <sipa> ;;nethash
1089 2014-07-21 20:19:09 <gribble> 138980050.639
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