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 105 2014-07-22 02:50:56 <skinnkavaj> SunnyKing a legend  http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/the-real-sunny
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 171 2014-07-22 04:31:27 <bombsite> Hi Greg, if a BIP doesn't have a link on the number, does that mean the proposal is still incomplete? private??
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 176 2014-07-22 04:41:33 <gmaxwell> bombsite: What BIP are you referring to?
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 178 2014-07-22 04:42:44 <bombsite> 40,41,63 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/README.mediawiki
 179 2014-07-22 04:43:17 <bombsite> sorry, I'm just reading as much as I can, I'm pretty noob so I probably won't be able to contribute much besides some optimizations/refactoring...
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 181 2014-07-22 04:44:19 <gmaxwell> bombsite: 40, 41, don't exist— they asked for numbers to be allocated and I allocated them but they never wrote them.
 182 2014-07-22 04:44:25 <gmaxwell> (a mistake I won't make in the future)
 183 2014-07-22 04:44:48 <gmaxwell> 63 had a draft but it was off being reworked.
 184 2014-07-22 04:46:22 <bombsite> I see, do you have any ideas for what someone should do if they want integration to possibly help out in the future? Any parts of the code or wikis to read?
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 216 2014-07-22 05:48:09 <fr0x> hey guys, I am rather new to the bitcoin api as a whole. This link here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list ... are the 'commands' able to be attached to some sort of GET parameter or how can I use them?
 217 2014-07-22 05:48:31 <fr0x> Is it possible to use with C++ or Java?
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 221 2014-07-22 05:52:00 <fr0x> guys?
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 224 2014-07-22 05:53:35 <Luke-Jr> fr0x: it's standard JSON-RPC
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 235 2014-07-22 06:07:57 <wumpus> the point of the RPC interface is that it can be used from any language
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 245 2014-07-22 06:23:48 <wumpus> cronus: FYI I just tested src/bitcoin-cli -testnet  importaddress mvqaxopu9Uef2qjXSV3fGrp6DcEYnCoYWK "" false    and it ran without rescan
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 255 2014-07-22 06:44:22 <venzen> in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script it says scriptSig is in the input of the spending transaction and scriptPubKey is in the output of the previously unspent i.e. "available" transaction.
 256 2014-07-22 06:45:34 <venzen> looking at a transaction it appears that scriptPubKey is in the output(s) of the current transaction... what am i missing?
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 259 2014-07-22 06:47:55 <venzen> the previous transaction (input to current transaction) lists scriptSig with <sig> <pubKey>, so I'm having difficulty understanding why scriptPubKey (as described in the wiki) is also being fetched from the previous transaction.
 260 2014-07-22 06:48:03 <poutine> venzen, for a txout to be spent, the scriptPubKey of the txout is prepended to the scriptSig, and must evaluate to TRUE
 261 2014-07-22 06:49:06 <poutine> See https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Types_of_Transaction for some technical details
 262 2014-07-22 06:49:13 <venzen> thank poutine. How does this relate to the scriptPubKey listed under each of the current transaction's outputs?
 263 2014-07-22 06:49:23 <venzen> is it the same thing?
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 265 2014-07-22 06:52:18 <venzen> i get this much: there is the stack. prev_out tx scriptSig <sig> and <pubKey> go on the stack. Then scriptPubKey's script operations (OP_DUP, etc) use that to arrive at True or False
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 269 2014-07-22 06:53:46 <venzen> Is the scriptPubkey OPs we are refering those listed under the current tx's outputs or are we refering to scriptPubKey of the prev_out (now an input to the current tx) ?
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 271 2014-07-22 06:56:05 <poutine> the scriptPubKey belongs to the txout you're spending, the scriptSig belongs to the txin in the spending transaction
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 287 2014-07-22 07:08:40 <venzen> jeez, i wish i was much cleverer. Thanks poutine. So is anything being referenced that's not listed in the output of this example transaction?
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 290 2014-07-22 07:09:24 <venzen> http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/90b18aa54288ec610d83ff1abe90f10d8ca87fb6411a72b2e56a169fdc9b0219
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 296 2014-07-22 07:12:53 <poutine> I'm not sure exactly what you mean, the scriptPubKeys of that transaction is just posing a question to be answered in order to spend each of the outputs. The scriptSig of the spending transaction is the answer to that question. For instance, if that scriptPubKey was: 2 OP_EQUAL, a valid spending scriptSig would be: 2
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 298 2014-07-22 07:14:05 <poutine> there's better tutorials on the subject than what I can explain on an IRC room
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 300 2014-07-22 07:16:07 <poutine> technically anything could spend that txout as long as it ended in 2
 301 2014-07-22 07:16:32 <venzen> i guess it's the wiki's wording "scriptPubKey is in the output of the previously unspent transaction"... to me it implies that the scriptPubKey of prev_out (the input to the current transaction) is being refered to...
 302 2014-07-22 07:17:50 <venzen> but scriptPubKey is not listed under the prev_out in the raw transaction output - it's only listed under the current transaction's outputs... so i was wondering if i understood it correctly
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 304 2014-07-22 07:22:43 <venzen> so for example, I previously received 10 BTC in an empty wallet and now I want to spend 2 BTC, so the current (spending tx) will have 10 BTC as input and two outputs - 2 BTC and 7.9999 BTC change - assuming 0.0001 tc fee
 305 2014-07-22 07:23:21 <venzen> the outputs each have a standard scriptPubKey
 306 2014-07-22 07:24:46 <venzen> so the scriptSig associated with the input (previous tx for 10 BTC) - does it relate to the current tx outputs?
 307 2014-07-22 07:25:29 <venzen> * does it relate to the current txout scriptPubKey ?
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 309 2014-07-22 07:27:40 <venzen> so the receiver of the current tx output of 2 BTC will have to answer the 2 BTC output scriptPubKey with the prev_out scriptSig?
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 323 2014-07-22 07:48:30 <venzen> when i look at the raw transaction output I see scriptSig under inputs and scriptPubKey under outputs - are these the two scripts that interact? That's my question in simplest terms
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 325 2014-07-22 07:49:34 <venzen> the wiki implies that the scriptPubKey of the input tx is somehow being referenced - although it's not listed in the current tx rawtransaction data
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 341 2014-07-22 08:11:13 <arioBarzan> Finally got it right, signed a nonstandard transaction by openssl which bitcoind didn't sign(don't know why): testnet/tx/78e6c5a8bc105579b3cefcd5fe0d7a34dd7144f4dfe509b2de2d67354b6f159b
 342 2014-07-22 08:11:17 <arioBarzan> Is there any chance that a similar transaction on mainnet with such a nonstandard scripPubKey "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <...> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY <...> OP_CHECKSIG" get confirmation by miners? If so then what would miners do about the corresponding spending transaction which would follow?
 343 2014-07-22 08:12:55 <gmaxwell> what do you mean "what would miners do about"?
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 345 2014-07-22 08:13:47 <arioBarzan> would they put it in their blocks?
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 348 2014-07-22 08:14:42 <gmaxwell> well you're starting with the assumption that you can get a non-standard transaction mined…
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 352 2014-07-22 08:17:45 <arioBarzan> that was my first question, can I get a similar non-standard transaction mined on mainnet? Luckily I got one mined on testnet.
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 356 2014-07-22 08:21:26 <gmaxwell> well non-standardness rules aren't applied at all on testnet.
 357 2014-07-22 08:21:44 <gmaxwell> I have no idea. You can attempt it.
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 505 2014-07-22 11:36:11 <abrkn> has anyone tried counterparty? i noticed LTB is using it for some specialized coin
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 522 2014-07-22 11:48:23 <ziggy909> how can i get block height from class CBlock : public CBlockHeader?
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 530 2014-07-22 12:00:50 <heeventuli> hey guys! ...(sorry if this is somehow a stupid question): how do i get the source and destionation bitcoin-address from a CTransaction? i thought that i can iterrate over TxIn and TxOut, but i dont see any members in TxIn/Out that look like an bitcoin-address-information...am i trying something completley stupid?
 531 2014-07-22 12:02:27 theorbtwo has joined
 532 2014-07-22 12:03:31 <sipa> bitcoin transactions do not have a source address
 533 2014-07-22 12:04:18 <sipa> they spend 'coins' (=unspent outputs from previous transactions) and refer to those previous transactions explicitly
 534 2014-07-22 12:04:26 <sipa> read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
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 536 2014-07-22 12:04:55 <sipa> for the destination address: an address is a shorthand for a particular script
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 538 2014-07-22 12:05:06 <sipa> which you can find in CTxOut as the scriptPubKey
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 542 2014-07-22 12:07:24 <heeventuli> aye! thx!
 543 2014-07-22 12:11:37 <hearn> hi there
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 546 2014-07-22 12:14:07 <sipa> ziggy909: you can't
 547 2014-07-22 12:14:28 <sipa> you need to build the header chain up to genesis to know the height
 548 2014-07-22 12:14:42 <sipa> or look in the coinbase's scriptSig (specified by BIP 34)
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 570 2014-07-22 12:43:37 <ziggy909> how can i get block height from class CBlock : public CBlockHeader?
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 572 2014-07-22 12:45:48 <sipa> 14:09:15 < sipa> ziggy909: you can't
 573 2014-07-22 12:45:51 <sipa> 14:09:35 < sipa> you need to build the header chain up to genesis to know the height
 574 2014-07-22 12:45:54 <sipa> 14:09:50 < sipa> or look in the coinbase's scriptSig (specified by BIP 34)
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 576 2014-07-22 12:52:25 <Jaamg> not sure if this is a correct channel for this, but I downloaded Bitcoin-qt (win 64bit) yesterday from the official site and right after installation I got a message from my AV-software (Symantec Endpoint) that uninstall.exe is infected with Trojan.ADH
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 579 2014-07-22 12:53:12 <Jaamg> my setup is brand new, installed the Symantec Endpoint before ever touching the Internet and Bitcoin-qt soonish (pun intended) after that
 580 2014-07-22 12:54:30 <hearn> Jaamg: is the uninstaller signed?
 581 2014-07-22 12:54:31 <Jaamg> so the download link I used was: https://bitcoin.org/bin/0.9.2.1/bitcoin-0.9.2.1-win64-setup.exe
 582 2014-07-22 12:54:40 <ziggy909> oh sorry sipa, small window
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 586 2014-07-22 12:56:25 <Jaamg> hearn: noob question: how do I check it? the hash SE shows for the uninstaller is: 5CBE9DC83D89A7980546FEAC2710EBB00388620ACB2703C496C57E5DD639C679
 587 2014-07-22 12:56:36 <hearn> you can right click it, i think, and look at the file properties
 588 2014-07-22 12:57:51 <ziggy909> sipa: CBlock : readfromdisk() does 'if (!CheckProofOfWork(GetPoWHash(), nBits))', i want to pass the height of the block it is checking to getpowhash(), so i need to get it from the scriptsig somehow?
 589 2014-07-22 12:57:58 <wumpus> Jaamg: that's a known false positive
 590 2014-07-22 12:58:18 <sipa> ziggy909: no, you need to know the height before calling that function
 591 2014-07-22 12:58:26 <sipa> you don't get it from the block itself
 592 2014-07-22 12:58:52 <sipa> by looking up the hashPrevBlock in your block tree, and increasing its height by one
 593 2014-07-22 12:59:20 <ziggy909> sipa: ok so i need to pass it to readfromdisk at the point at which it is called?
 594 2014-07-22 12:59:43 <hearn> Jaamg: if it's signed then there's not much more we can do about it. if it's not signed, that'd be a problem we can fix
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 598 2014-07-22 13:03:02 <Jaamg> hearn, wumpus: thanks, I created a false positive ticket for Symantec and am waiting what they say. Gotta get the machine in question and figure out if I can see whether the file is signed or not
 599 2014-07-22 13:03:09 <hearn> ok
 600 2014-07-22 13:03:11 <hearn> cool, thanks
 601 2014-07-22 13:03:16 <sipa> ziggy909: no, you pass it to CheckProofOfWork
 602 2014-07-22 13:03:17 <wumpus> the uninstaller is not signed by the way
 603 2014-07-22 13:03:42 <wumpus> it's autogenerated by the installer software
 604 2014-07-22 13:03:47 <sipa> ziggy909: and you know by looking up the block's parent in your block table, and using the height of the parent by one
 605 2014-07-22 13:04:02 <sipa> ziggy909: you can only do that if you have all blocks from genesis to the block you're checking
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 611 2014-07-22 13:06:13 <hearn> Jaamg: ok, never mind then, wumpus says it's not signed. that's something we should fix. otherwise the AV software can't tell the difference between our uninstaller and ones that have come with malware packages
 612 2014-07-22 13:06:17 <hearn> hence the FPs
 613 2014-07-22 13:06:21 <hearn> signing is really vital to avoid them
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 619 2014-07-22 13:09:56 <wumpus> I wonder if that is even possible with the nullsoft installer system, as the uninstaller is created on the fly
 620 2014-07-22 13:11:15 <ziggy909> ok so cblockheader : hashPrevBlock is the current height minus one?
 621 2014-07-22 13:11:18 <ziggy909> sipa
 622 2014-07-22 13:11:28 <pigeons> does av software actually check that? how do they know the cert the dev signs with isnt a cert from a malware distributor?
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 625 2014-07-22 13:11:53 <sipa> ziggy909: please study bitcoin's data structures first; i can't explain everything
 626 2014-07-22 13:12:26 <ziggy909> is there a reference document for those?
 627 2014-07-22 13:12:33 <wumpus> seeming it is possible, but would compilate the build a lot, and (at last this specific solution) would make deterministic building impossible http://nsis.sourceforge.net/Signing_an_Uninstaller
 628 2014-07-22 13:13:00 <sipa> ziggy909: search the wiki, the developer guide, the source code (of either the reference client or another implementation), ...
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 630 2014-07-22 13:13:15 * drizztbsd loves portable implementation without the need of installer/uninstaller
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 632 2014-07-22 13:13:22 <ziggy909> oh i see it's the hash of the previous block now, but no idea how to get the height from that
 633 2014-07-22 13:13:29 <sipa> ziggy909: you can't
 634 2014-07-22 13:13:38 <sipa> ziggy909: you need to build the entire tree of all blocks
 635 2014-07-22 13:13:55 <sipa> the distance from the genesis block to the block you're checking is the height
 636 2014-07-22 13:14:07 <sipa> so build the tree, and remember the height for each block you add to the tree
 637 2014-07-22 13:14:35 <ziggy909> is that not done somewhere else in main.cpp for example?
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 640 2014-07-22 13:14:53 <sipa> what are you trying to do?
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 642 2014-07-22 13:15:13 <ziggy909> pass the height of the current block to gethash()
 643 2014-07-22 13:15:49 <sipa> why?
 644 2014-07-22 13:15:54 <ziggy909> it's an experiment
 645 2014-07-22 13:16:07 <sipa> you're still not telling me what you're trying to do
 646 2014-07-22 13:16:28 <sipa> the height is not hashed, so without context, this does not make sense
 647 2014-07-22 13:16:47 <ziggy909> not yet, that's what im trying to do
 648 2014-07-22 13:17:00 <ziggy909> among other things
 649 2014-07-22 13:17:06 <sipa> this will not change
 650 2014-07-22 13:17:55 <ziggy909> sorry if im wasting your time, i'll ask someone else
 651 2014-07-22 13:17:59 <ziggy909> thanks for your help so far
 652 2014-07-22 13:18:07 <sipa> no, i'm just trying to understand what you're doing
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 655 2014-07-22 13:20:22 <hearn> wumpus: there are tools out there that strip signatures from EXE files
 656 2014-07-22 13:20:28 <hearn> wumpus: so i'm not sure why it'd have to be non-deterministic ...
 657 2014-07-22 13:20:57 <hearn> wumpus: but yeah that seems sort of annoying, that the uninstaller is generated on the fly.
 658 2014-07-22 13:20:58 <wumpus> hearn: the problem is not stripping the signature, but adding it in a deterministic way
 659 2014-07-22 13:21:41 <hearn> pigeons: yes AV softtware relies on signing very heavily. it's all based on binary reputation these days.
 660 2014-07-22 13:21:42 <wumpus> hearn: it would be possible but the build process would be divided into two stages: build unsigned executables, have gavin (or whoever signs) sign the executables and send the signature to the rest, then in a second phase everyone adds in the signatures
 661 2014-07-22 13:22:32 <hearn> wumpus: or to do deterministic builds in a different way, e.g. having people sign the statement saying "this build is legit" after taking gavin's build, stripping out non-deterministic but non-dangerous parts, like signatures, and checking they match their own builds after the same process
 662 2014-07-22 13:22:53 <hearn> that's how the TrueCrypt verification was done.
 663 2014-07-22 13:22:59 <hearn> (and how we do it for bitcoinj, sort of)
 664 2014-07-22 13:23:56 <hearn> pigeons: what they do is, check signatures on EXEs and if the signer is a known good entity they can skip it. it makes performance much faster and FP rates much lower. they decide if signers are "known good" by watching how new signers start appearing amongst their population of users and how often the programs are manually executed, how often they show up in FP reports vs virus submissions, etc.
 665 2014-07-22 13:24:33 <hearn> pigeons: this is why AV products don't go nuts when auto updates happen. they see that the new binary is signed by the same guys as the old binary, so it's probably ok if the old binary was also ok
 666 2014-07-22 13:25:18 <hearn> pigeons: also getting code signing certs requires ID verification and so it's harder for malware authors to do it themselves, of course, though not impossible (e.g. stuxnet was signed with stolen keys)
 667 2014-07-22 13:26:37 <drizztbsd> TrueCrypt? the software that raccomends a backdoor-based software as replacement? :P
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 671 2014-07-22 13:29:00 <wumpus> hearn: sure that's possible, but the problem is nested executables such as the installer, which would have to contain signed executables in turn... so then stripping the signature from the outer installer doesn't prove much, as the other builders cannot even create that (with the signed executables inside)
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 673 2014-07-22 13:29:28 <hearn> right
 674 2014-07-22 13:29:47 <hearn> i guess the comparison would have to be on the installed files
 675 2014-07-22 13:29:49 <wumpus> I'm sure it is possible, but it is a lot of hassle
 676 2014-07-22 13:29:56 <hearn> verification does get a bit painful
 677 2014-07-22 13:30:44 <wumpus> but you'd still have to verify somehow that the installer itself is not infected with something, to get the installed files you have to run it and you may already be compromised then
 678 2014-07-22 13:31:24 <wumpus> currently it's possible to verify because the executables inside the installer are not signed, so everyone can build the same installer (minus the signature)
 679 2014-07-22 13:31:33 <hearn> i guess you verify that the installed files are OK, and then build the installer with gavin's files, and then check the installer
 680 2014-07-22 13:31:45 <wumpus> ... right
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 682 2014-07-22 13:33:17 <hearn> right. so none of the exes on disk are signed. yeah i guess that can cause FPs too, though presumably the uninstaller looks a lot like a program that is a part of a program that is a part of their database for some reason
 683 2014-07-22 13:33:21 <hearn> hard to ever really know
 684 2014-07-22 13:34:00 <hearn> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2011/03/22/authenticode-code-signing-for-developers-for-file-downloads-building-smartscreen-application-reputation.aspx
 685 2014-07-22 13:34:02 <hearn> good article on it here
 686 2014-07-22 13:34:12 <hearn> "For instance, many anti-malware or firewall tools will treat unsigned executables with suspicion, and may even block them if they happen to share the same filename as a malicious program. For instance, one of my utilities, SlickRun shared the same filename (sr.exe) as a malicious program, and some anti-malware tools were too primitive to recognize the false positive. However, after I signed sr.exe directly, this problem went away."
 687 2014-07-22 13:34:26 <hearn> "Similarly, some firewalls assign exceptions to programs based on their digital signature or file hash. If the user approves an exception to allow your program through the local firewall, that exception may be deleted if your program is later updated and the file’s hash changed."
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 689 2014-07-22 13:35:38 <wumpus> there is a lot of overhead in supporting windows, most of it ironically due to virus scanners
 690 2014-07-22 13:35:53 <drizztbsd> why?
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 692 2014-07-22 13:36:10 <wumpus> well the block index files themselves are also detected as viruses sometimes
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 694 2014-07-22 13:36:49 <hearn> yeah. AV is a pretty nasty war
 695 2014-07-22 13:36:52 <wumpus> there's a whole cesspool of issues there
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 697 2014-07-22 13:37:08 <hearn> though there are virus scanners for mac/linux too of course
 698 2014-07-22 13:39:41 <hearn> arguably linux servers should have AV scanners, given the power of some linux web server botnets
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 700 2014-07-22 13:39:56 <hearn> good luck convincing sysadmins of that though
 701 2014-07-22 13:40:10 <drizztbsd> av scanners for linux detect almost only windows virures
 702 2014-07-22 13:40:14 <drizztbsd> viruses*
 703 2014-07-22 13:41:19 <hearn> yes, i know
 704 2014-07-22 13:41:43 <hearn> there are a few rootkit checker tools and the like but they're mostly reactive and don't adapt/update much
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 706 2014-07-22 13:43:49 <wumpus> arguably if a linux server is rooted, it's way too late to do virus scanning
 707 2014-07-22 13:44:54 <hearn> assuming perfect viruses, which are rare. but yeah that's why AV scans programs before you run them ...
 708 2014-07-22 13:45:17 <wumpus> but they usually get compromised remotely, not by running something
 709 2014-07-22 13:47:13 <hearn> nah
 710 2014-07-22 13:47:24 <hearn> these days a lot of viruses, especially the low level ones, are run by end users
 711 2014-07-22 13:47:29 <wumpus> hence limiting the system calls that can be done by daemons, to avoid a compromised process from getting further control of the system, is much more effective than scanning for something
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 713 2014-07-22 13:47:35 <hearn> browser exploits got harder and harder to find, more and more valuable
 714 2014-07-22 13:47:58 <hearn> yeah, well defence is great until you get some crappy PHP webapp that's full of holes. that's sort of the linux sysadmin equivalent of the flying pigs screensaver :)
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 742 2014-07-22 14:28:20 <bsm117532> I have an idea for a (possibly) new double-spend attack against bitcoin.  Can someone tell me why it wouldn't work?
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 747 2014-07-22 14:28:57 <drizztbsd> which one?
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 755 2014-07-22 14:31:36 <bsm117532> Say I create two transactions (a double-spend) T1 and T2, and I have a large amount of mining power, but less than 50%.  Now I will mine privately two forks of the blockchain, one containing T1, and one containing T2, searching for the opportunity that I can mine *both* blocks within one 10 minute window.  I then submit both mined blocks to different nodes in the network, *simultaneously*.  Confirmations will then begin to roll
 756 2014-07-22 14:31:37 xenog has joined
 757 2014-07-22 14:31:58 <bsm117532> What's wrong with that idea?
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 764 2014-07-22 14:37:03 <bsm117532> I'd only need 1.5% of the hashing power if I wanted to do this once a month, or 0.4% to do it once a year.
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 770 2014-07-22 14:40:36 <helo> bsm117532: what does announcing conflicting transactions in blocks vs just announcing two unconfirmed transactions to the network?
 771 2014-07-22 14:40:50 <helo> accomplish
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 775 2014-07-22 14:41:32 <bsm117532> T1 and T2 are not announced to the network until both of my private blocks are mined.  So at the time I announce them, there is already one confirmation on each fork.
 776 2014-07-22 14:41:49 <epscy> bsm117532: i think that would work but the fork wouldn't last past 1 comfirm, so your opportunity to double spend is quite limited
 777 2014-07-22 14:42:18 <bsm117532> Perhaps I misunderstand how the mining works.
 778 2014-07-22 14:42:34 <epscy> also i'm not sure if you factored this in, but to mine two seperate blocks at the same time you would need twice the hashing power that you would need to just mine one block
 779 2014-07-22 14:42:41 <epscy> if that makes sense
 780 2014-07-22 14:42:42 <bsm117532> What happens after I submit both mined blocks?  Do both T1 and T2 then get distributed to all nodes, so all nodes see the double-spend?
 781 2014-07-22 14:42:51 <drizztbsd> that's why we recommend to wait for 6 confirm :)
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 784 2014-07-22 14:43:12 <epscy> it's risky because you have no guarantee of mining the second block before someone else on the network
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 786 2014-07-22 14:43:32 <epscy> at which point because you didn't broadcast the first block, that work is wasted
 787 2014-07-22 14:43:41 <bsm117532> epscy: I did factor that in.  (8.3%)^2 = 1/144, e.g. once per day.
 788 2014-07-22 14:43:54 <jrick> nodes would set the first as their main chain, and then get the second and create a fork. if the fork is extended beyond the main chain, there's a reorg
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 790 2014-07-22 14:44:30 <jrick> so it depends which fork gets the next block propigated first
 791 2014-07-22 14:44:54 <epscy> bsm117532: rationally this attack only makes sense if the double spend is worth more than the coinbase reward in the first block
 792 2014-07-22 14:44:55 <bsm117532> jrick: so one of the two forks would get 2 confirmations and the other would stay at 1?
 793 2014-07-22 14:45:03 <bsm117532> epscy: yes.
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 795 2014-07-22 14:45:28 <epscy> bsm117532: that's quite a tall order i think, most exchanges need at least 3 confirms
 796 2014-07-22 14:45:33 <jrick> bsm117532: not necessarily but that's the likely outcome
 797 2014-07-22 14:46:00 <epscy> and if you tried to buy something through bitpay, likely the reorg would be noticed long before your order is shipped
 798 2014-07-22 14:46:34 <bsm117532> Why do the two forks not both continue to get confirmations?
 799 2014-07-22 14:47:02 <epscy> bsm117532: the second fork is forgotten about as soon as the first fork gets a new block
 800 2014-07-22 14:47:05 <bsm117532> jrick: can you provide a link to explain a "reorg"?
 801 2014-07-22 14:47:05 <jrick> miners only mine off of what they think is the best chain
 802 2014-07-22 14:47:14 <drizztbsd> ghash uses to have 51% of hash power
 803 2014-07-22 14:47:19 <drizztbsd> used*
 804 2014-07-22 14:47:20 <epscy> well i shouldn't say second or first, because the order doesn't matter
 805 2014-07-22 14:47:39 <epscy> what's important is one fork will win and the other will be forgotten about
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 808 2014-07-22 14:48:43 <epscy> i guess this could work against a localbitcoins buyer
 809 2014-07-22 14:48:55 <jrick> bsm117532: don't have any links handy but it's just removing the blocks from the previous main chain and replacing them with a fork, when the fork gets longer
 810 2014-07-22 14:49:16 <bsm117532> epscy: Yes of course, but does this happen at the 2nd confirmation?  Or only by consensus much later?
 811 2014-07-22 14:49:43 <epscy> i know i would want more than 1 confirm i was buying $15000 worth of bitcoins on localbitcoins though
 812 2014-07-22 14:49:59 <epscy> bsm117532: it happens when the next block is found on the public network
 813 2014-07-22 14:50:31 <jrick> there's a bit of variance between how long it takes for blocks to be found
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 815 2014-07-22 14:50:37 <epscy> yup
 816 2014-07-22 14:50:40 <jrick> extremely unlikely that both chains will receive confirmations at the same time
 817 2014-07-22 14:50:58 <epscy> that's the big problem with this, i'm not sure you are taking into account variance
 818 2014-07-22 14:50:58 <jrick> and that probibility decreases as you start adding more confirmations
 819 2014-07-22 14:51:11 <bsm117532> So then one chain gets 2 confirmations, the other chain has one, and all the miners reorg to follow the chain with 2 confirmations?
 820 2014-07-22 14:51:19 <epscy> you need to find two blocks before the rest of the network
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 822 2014-07-22 14:51:28 <epscy> bsm117532: yes
 823 2014-07-22 14:51:35 <bsm117532> epscy: that's the only thing I took into account...
 824 2014-07-22 14:52:12 <bsm117532> Ok I think I get it.  Thanks folks.
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 830 2014-07-22 14:53:54 <epscy> if you add in the cost of mining hardware and electricity (you don't know when it will happen just the probability) the amount gained from the double spend would have to be significant i think
 831 2014-07-22 14:54:07 <epscy> to be rational
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 836 2014-07-22 14:55:08 <epscy> also if you broadcast two blocks at the same i'm not sure how you would control who sees which block first
 837 2014-07-22 14:55:13 <epscy> *same time
 838 2014-07-22 14:55:13 <bsm117532> epscy: doesn't matter.  That hardware can make btc from regular mining until such a double-mined event occurs.
 839 2014-07-22 14:55:37 <bsm117532> epscy: submit them to different nodes across the network.
 840 2014-07-22 14:55:41 <epscy> bsm117532: but aren't you always withholding blocks?
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 843 2014-07-22 14:56:09 <epscy> bsm117532: right but how can you be sure how long and how far each block will propogate?
 844 2014-07-22 14:56:13 <bsm117532> Yes, until I manage to mine 2 blocks before anyone else mines one.
 845 2014-07-22 14:56:28 <drizztbsd> you need almost 50% :P
 846 2014-07-22 14:56:46 <bsm117532> epscy: that's the question.  Can both chains propagate simulataneously to generate 6 confirmations each?
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 848 2014-07-22 14:57:05 <epscy> no
 849 2014-07-22 14:57:29 <epscy> the fork will last 1 confirm at most
 850 2014-07-22 14:57:30 <bsm117532> And beyond the initial double-mine, I don't have enough hashing power to keep both chains going.  One will win at the next block.
 851 2014-07-22 14:57:36 <bsm117532> epscy: exactly.
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 862 2014-07-22 15:10:06 <dgenr8> bsm117532: it sounds like initially you were under a big misconception about the "10 minute window".  that's just an average
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 864 2014-07-22 15:12:57 <bsm117532> dgenr8: I had a misconception about how future blocks get mined, but I got the 10 minute window correct.  I squared the probability (my fraction of the hashing power) to get the above numbers.  I'm sure this isn't exactly the correct calculation, but it's very close.
 865 2014-07-22 15:13:30 <sipa> nodes only relay blocks they consider part of their own best chain
 866 2014-07-22 15:14:17 <dgenr8> bsm117532: it's like sinx ~= x ... it starts to be a very bad approximation when the fraction gets larger
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 868 2014-07-22 15:16:04 <bsm117532> Yes but x = 1/144 is very accurate.
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 885 2014-07-22 15:23:18 <venzen> in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions under the subheading "Verification" the wiki mentions "referenced" outputs. What does this mean?
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 888 2014-07-22 15:23:54 <dgenr8> epscy: satoshi was very wise to set the reward so high.  i don't know how he anticipated that it would outweigh the market rate for double-spends so well ... maybe there is some dynamic that made it happen that way
 889 2014-07-22 15:24:35 <epscy> dgenr8: yeah, i do worry about what happens when the reward becomes very small though
 890 2014-07-22 15:24:58 <venzen> "referenced output's scriptPubKey"... is this just the tx outputs?
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 892 2014-07-22 15:26:48 <venzen> or the output of the prev_out - now become an input?
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 894 2014-07-22 15:31:17 <hearn> dgenr8: he just wanted the amount to be round. i don't think there was much thought put into it. he could not have known what the price would become.
 895 2014-07-22 15:31:21 <jgarzik> venzen, one transaction's output(s) become another transaction's inputs
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 901 2014-07-22 15:33:10 <venzen> thanks jgarzik, but the wiki seems to be implying some other outputs are being referenced - i guess it's just confusing something really simple
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 903 2014-07-22 15:33:49 <venzen> when i look at the raw transaction example here: http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/90b18aa54288ec610d83ff1abe90f10d8ca87fb6411a72b2e56a169fdc9b0219 I see scriptSig under inputs and scriptPubKey under outputs - are these the two scripts that interact? That's my question
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 906 2014-07-22 15:35:30 <sipa> you have a transction tx1, without outputs 0 and 1; you have a transaction tx2 with 1 input, which spends tx1:1's output
 907 2014-07-22 15:35:53 <sipa> tx2:0's scriptSig is fed as input to tx1:1's scriptPubKey
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 909 2014-07-22 15:37:43 <venzen> sipa: thanks, i think you meant "tx1, _with_ outputs 0 and 1" ?
 910 2014-07-22 15:37:53 <sipa> yes!
 911 2014-07-22 15:38:01 <venzen> a-ha!
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 920 2014-07-22 15:41:57 <venzen> that's what i thought until i read the wiki:
 921 2014-07-22 15:42:10 <sipa> fix it :)
 922 2014-07-22 15:42:15 <sipa> (to be more clear)
 923 2014-07-22 15:42:58 <venzen> no problem - still waiting for auth, my wiki account is "venzen"
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 925 2014-07-22 15:43:30 <wumpus> venzen: I should be able to authorize you, let's see
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 927 2014-07-22 15:44:18 <venzen> wumpus: thanks
 928 2014-07-22 15:44:29 <venzen> in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script it says scriptSig is in the input of the spending transaction and scriptPubKey is in the output of the previously unspent i.e. "available" transaction.
 929 2014-07-22 15:44:44 <sipa> that's correct
 930 2014-07-22 15:44:52 <venzen> strictly that is true but its confusing in that wording
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 933 2014-07-22 15:46:26 <venzen> so the spending transaction is the "current transaction" and "previously unspent - available - transaction" is refering to UTXO ?
 934 2014-07-22 15:46:55 <venzen> well, "spending transaction" is the parlance
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 936 2014-07-22 15:47:24 <sipa> yes, the spending transaction is the later one; the transaction output being spent is the older one
 937 2014-07-22 15:47:43 <venzen> ok, thanks sipa!
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1056 2014-07-22 17:44:17 <etotheipi_> request for ideas:  Armory Technologies would like to make some public donations to variety of organizations that are promoting Bitcoin and internet freedom... who should we donate to?
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1059 2014-07-22 17:44:33 <etotheipi_> Bitcoin Foundation, Tor Project, EFF are the main ones I have right now
1060 2014-07-22 17:46:24 <harding> etotheipi_: depends of your definition of Internet freedom, but there's the FSF.
1061 2014-07-22 17:46:31 <etotheipi_> FSF is good
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1093 2014-07-22 18:29:00 <MaxSan> etotheipi_: unsystem
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1107 2014-07-22 18:39:06 <coinheavy> Why not create a grant program and solicit proposals from potential developers/developer-teams?
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1121 2014-07-22 18:42:37 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, EPIC
1122 2014-07-22 18:43:09 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, <blatant self-interest> BitSat, which aims to provide censorship-free stream of blocks from space </>
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1232 2014-07-22 21:01:57 <roybadami> Github clue?  I foolishly developed on my master branch (sorry, I'm new to github and pretty new to git)
1233 2014-07-22 21:02:22 <hearn> git checkout -b my-feature
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1235 2014-07-22 21:02:33 <roybadami> Yes, I know now :-)
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1237 2014-07-22 21:02:39 <roybadami> But it's kind of too late
1238 2014-07-22 21:02:42 <hearn> no, i mean, start fixing with that command
1239 2014-07-22 21:02:49 <hearn> it duplicates your master into a new branch
1240 2014-07-22 21:02:49 <kazcw> it's pretty much never too late with git
1241 2014-07-22 21:02:53 <hearn> then git checkout master
1242 2014-07-22 21:02:57 <kazcw> that's a large part of the point
1243 2014-07-22 21:03:01 <hearn> and git rebase -i HEAD~10 (for example) and remove your commits on top
1244 2014-07-22 21:03:15 <hearn> or just use git reset, for instance
1245 2014-07-22 21:03:20 <roybadami> Part of my problem is I know a little git, but no github
1246 2014-07-22 21:03:30 <roybadami> It appears once you have a pull request you're kind of stuck
1247 2014-07-22 21:03:30 <hearn> so you can "fix" your master, safe in the knowledge that you have your work on the feature branch
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1249 2014-07-22 21:04:38 <roybadami> In particular I read an article that suggests that renaming a feature branch can cause github to just delete the pull request (!)
1250 2014-07-22 21:04:58 <roybadami> Now, given the pull request is merged, is it safe for me to just reset my master branch?
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1253 2014-07-22 21:06:20 <kazcw> a pull request is tied to github's copy of a branch. update or delete the branch on github, and the pull request will be affected. once a pull request is merged though, there is no pull request to be updated by your changes
1254 2014-07-22 21:06:36 <roybadami> Really?
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1256 2014-07-22 21:06:48 <roybadami> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4167
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1258 2014-07-22 21:06:54 <roybadami> It's still there AFAICS
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1260 2014-07-22 21:07:29 <roybadami> I don't want to do anything that could risk all that discussion being deleted (which is why I didn't fix by renaming master and creating a new master)
1261 2014-07-22 21:07:31 <kazcw> the code in a PR can't be changed once it's merged; that's just not how merging works
1262 2014-07-22 21:07:56 <kazcw> the PR is closed, so it won't be updated by changes to the branch
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1264 2014-07-22 21:09:05 <roybadami> Ok, so I can now safely reset my master branch and the PR won't for ever carry on tracking it?
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1267 2014-07-22 21:09:18 <roybadami> Or do I still need to now rename master and create a new one?
1268 2014-07-22 21:09:32 <kazcw> no, once it's merged it just documents what happened. it won't keep tracking what happens in the future.
1269 2014-07-22 21:09:59 <kazcw> it may be worth reading an introduction to github, they generally have good docs
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1271 2014-07-22 21:10:48 <roybadami> Yeah.... I found enough docs to say "don't do it that way" but only after it was too late to fix
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1276 2014-07-22 21:14:26 <roybadami> kazcw: yes, it makes sense that a merged PR should be frozen.  I was just slightly surprised to learn just how hard github makes things.  I guess it's because in git you can have as many clones of a repo as you like, so master is n't really special (and it;s not really special anyway) but in github I'm only allowed to have one fork of bitcoin AFAIK, at least without creating a new user
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1279 2014-07-22 21:16:16 <kazcw> roybadami: there's not much reason to have multiple forks of the same project, that's what branches are for
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1282 2014-07-22 21:17:38 <roybadami> Yes indeed.  git != github
1283 2014-07-22 21:18:17 <kazcw> in git in general, the only reason to have multiple forks rather than use branches is to keep copies of the repo on different machines
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1286 2014-07-22 21:19:49 <roybadami> Ok...  I had read some stuff that suggested cloning repos or creating branches were equally valid ways of working in git. Because named branches are really just pointers to commits after all.  Maybe I misunderstood.
1287 2014-07-22 21:20:21 <kazcw> multiple clones of a repo are an awkwardly heavyweight way to do anything you could do with branches instead
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1289 2014-07-22 21:20:34 <kazcw> if multiple concurrent working directories are what you're after, git-new-workdir handles that nicely
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1291 2014-07-22 21:21:19 <roybadami> Is git clone particularly heavy weight?  It uses hard links, doensn' it?
1292 2014-07-22 21:22:10 <roybadami> But no, I don't particularly want multiple working directories.  Mainly I just forgot to create a branch.
1293 2014-07-22 21:22:48 <roybadami> And then was slightly surprised to learn that github makes it impossible to fix this while you have an open pull request tracking master (at least, that's as much as I could learn)
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1305 2014-07-22 21:37:25 <roybadami> Ok, thanks kazcw, I just tested and the pull request doesn't pick up new changes to master.
1306 2014-07-22 21:37:55 <roybadami> So I can freely fix up my fork without risking damaging the historical record.  Thanks!
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1343 2014-07-22 22:24:54 <davec> for those doing anything with BIP0032 from Go -> https://github.com/conformal/btcutil/tree/master/hdkeychain
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