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 208 2014-07-23 05:12:33 <etotheipi_> strange question:  if I wanted to donate to "Bitcoin core development", how would I do that?
 209 2014-07-23 05:12:55 imagegami has joined
 210 2014-07-23 05:13:01 <etotheipi_> the website points me to the Bitcoin Foundation... is there a more-direct way to donate to the development?
 211 2014-07-23 05:13:44 <wumpus> nothing organized, though ofc you could ask specific developers for donation addresses
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 213 2014-07-23 05:14:48 <wumpus> let's say you like the headers-first pull a lot, then you just donate to @sipa :)
 214 2014-07-23 05:15:02 <etotheipi_> wumpus: I'd like to do a matched donation promotion for Armory's new features... I'm getting some pushback from various people regarding donating to the BF
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 216 2014-07-23 05:15:21 <etotheipi_> I didn't think it would be a big deal...
 217 2014-07-23 05:16:27 <wumpus> well Gavin, Cory and me are paid by the BF, they are the only organization paying developers to work on bitcoin core full-time
 218 2014-07-23 05:16:30 <etotheipi_> simply put I would like a nice public target that supports core dev
 219 2014-07-23 05:16:44 <etotheipi_> I will do the BF if needed
 220 2014-07-23 05:17:36 <Dr-G> there's like a site that pays people who commit somethint to github
 221 2014-07-23 05:17:40 <wumpus> but yes a common complaint is that they fund other stuff than development as well
 222 2014-07-23 05:17:55 <wumpus> anyhow that's off-topic here :)
 223 2014-07-23 05:18:07 <etotheipi_> wumpus: what would you do?
 224 2014-07-23 05:18:14 <etotheipi_> we're trying to make a variety of donations
 225 2014-07-23 05:18:24 <etotheipi_> both for the good of everything Bitcoin and some PR for us
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 227 2014-07-23 05:18:40 <Dr-G> http://tip4commit.com/github/bitcoin/bitcoin
 228 2014-07-23 05:19:01 <etotheipi_> I'm not a fan of tip4commit, nor does it have good PR value
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 230 2014-07-23 05:19:18 <Dr-G> better than the foundation way imo
 231 2014-07-23 05:19:38 <etotheipi_> "Armory Technologies announces it will match up to $X,000 donations to tip4commit"
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 233 2014-07-23 05:19:43 <etotheipi_> doesn't have a good ring to it
 234 2014-07-23 05:19:51 <wumpus> I'm not a big fan of tip4commit either -- it pays per commit, no matter whether it's a silly message change or deep, painstaking debugging work or  difficult feature
 235 2014-07-23 05:20:17 <etotheipi_> yes, and some of the most valuable work my guys have done have been consolidating and refactoring... actually net negative lines of code added
 236 2014-07-23 05:20:29 <Dr-G> true
 237 2014-07-23 05:20:38 <etotheipi_> (I'm not sure exactly what tip4commit does, but I assumed that was it)
 238 2014-07-23 05:20:43 <wumpus> so it incentivices clutter, a bit like paying per source code line, which famously resulted in a flight simulator in excel :-)
 239 2014-07-23 05:21:07 <Dr-G> hehe
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 241 2014-07-23 05:21:18 <etotheipi_> so wumpus, any recommendations?
 242 2014-07-23 05:21:31 <wumpus> so it's a way, but probably not the best way, although funding open source is a hard problem
 243 2014-07-23 05:21:54 <etotheipi_> well, we're going to donate some to FSF, EFF, OpenSSL
 244 2014-07-23 05:21:57 <wumpus> you could hire someone to work on a certain open problem
 245 2014-07-23 05:22:08 <etotheipi_> heh, actually did that already :)
 246 2014-07-23 05:22:28 <etotheipi_> well, we paid maaku a bit to work on the UTXO tree stuff
 247 2014-07-23 05:22:58 <wumpus> the point is also to keep it distributed; it's good that Bitcoin Foundation keeps the lights on development-wise, but we don't want the BF to be the only contributor
 248 2014-07-23 05:23:14 <Luke-Jr> hey etotheipi_, ltns
 249 2014-07-23 05:23:18 <etotheipi_> nonetheless, I was looking for an easy way to support Core development, and it sounds like BF is still the best option for that
 250 2014-07-23 05:23:31 <wumpus> (well that's possible, but it'd be a tor-like funding model, the idea was to have it linux-like)
 251 2014-07-23 05:23:45 <wumpus> etotheipi_: I agree!  and funding the BF is important
 252 2014-07-23 05:24:34 <wumpus> etotheipi_: so that is probably the best option
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 254 2014-07-23 05:25:25 <etotheipi_> yeah, I wouldn't even know how to split up donations to individual developers... I would want someone/an org more in tuned with what's going on, to decide that for me... like the BF :)
 255 2014-07-23 05:25:29 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: BF is kinda disappointing with the recent Ghash.io sham-participation :/
 256 2014-07-23 05:25:41 <wumpus> apart from tor, blender is another example of an open source project where development is mostly centralized in a foundation
 257 2014-07-23 05:27:07 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I know, but anyhow any organization makes mistakes, it's always easy to pick a few and paint in a completely negative light
 258 2014-07-23 05:27:29 <etotheipi_> I support what the Foundation is trying to do and recognize it's not easy
 259 2014-07-23 05:27:49 <etotheipi_> and it's unfortunate it's been marred by all this BS
 260 2014-07-23 05:27:53 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yeah, at least they've got a few devs taken care of - that's the important part I guess
 261 2014-07-23 05:27:55 <etotheipi_> but I still want the BF to exist
 262 2014-07-23 05:28:38 <etotheipi_> wumpus: does the BF pay salaries?  or some percentage of donations?
 263 2014-07-23 05:29:01 <wumpus> etotheipi_: it pays a fixed salary (well - at least to me)
 264 2014-07-23 05:30:04 <wumpus> etotheipi_: AFAIK that's just how they work
 265 2014-07-23 05:30:13 <Dr-G> they published a report recently
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 267 2014-07-23 05:30:32 <Dr-G> about their finances and expenses
 268 2014-07-23 05:30:50 <Dr-G> https://bitcoinfoundation.org/static/2014/05/Bitcoin-2013-990-PDC.pdf
 269 2014-07-23 05:34:01 <wumpus> apart from devs they also pay for hosting for bitcoin.org (lots of downloads), a development server that runs the pulltester and such, and so on
 270 2014-07-23 05:35:46 <etotheipi_> well then, I guess that makes my life easier
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 284 2014-07-23 06:02:18 <dfletcher> hi does anyone know about bitcoin-abe? trying to connect it to an alt and don't understand how to get the raw transaction of the genesis block that it wants from me.
 285 2014-07-23 06:03:46 <jcorgan> this isn't the channel
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 287 2014-07-23 06:07:17 <wumpus> yes; discussing bitcoin-abe is fine, but no alts here
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 467 2014-07-23 11:01:31 <venzen> hi, is there a standard term for describing the initial section of a raw transaction (hash, version, vin_sz, vout_sz, lock_time, size) ?
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 470 2014-07-23 11:03:15 <sipa> venzen: that's not the initial section
 471 2014-07-23 11:03:30 <wumpus> isn't nlocktime the last field?
 472 2014-07-23 11:03:59 <sipa> it's (version, vin_sz, vin, vout_sz, vout, lock_time)
 473 2014-07-23 11:04:14 <venzen> i'm referencing this: http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/90b18aa54288ec610d83ff1abe90f10d8ca87fb6411a72b2e56a169fdc9b0219
 474 2014-07-23 11:04:16 <wumpus> right
 475 2014-07-23 11:04:21 <sipa> there is no field 'hash', 'size', and the actual inputs and outputs follow the counts
 476 2014-07-23 11:04:23 <venzen> so there is a discrepancy, eh!
 477 2014-07-23 11:04:32 <venzen> right
 478 2014-07-23 11:04:44 <sipa> well, what bbe shows is interpreted data
 479 2014-07-23 11:04:54 <venzen> so thats just blockexplorer doing a blockchain.info on me
 480 2014-07-23 11:05:01 <venzen> hmm
 481 2014-07-23 11:05:10 <venzen> ok, thanks sipa
 482 2014-07-23 11:05:24 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
 483 2014-07-23 11:05:25 <wumpus> venzen: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#transactions
 484 2014-07-23 11:05:48 <venzen> is there a name for that stanza of (version, vin_sz, vin, vout_sz, vout,          | lock_time)
 485 2014-07-23 11:06:02 <wumpus> no
 486 2014-07-23 11:06:28 <venzen> if i were to give it one, would "meta data" be absurd?
 487 2014-07-23 11:06:46 <wumpus> eh - (version, vin_sz, vin, vout_sz, vout, lock_time)  that's the whole transaction
 488 2014-07-23 11:07:06 <venzen> oh damn, you're right
 489 2014-07-23 11:07:32 <venzen> i should just forget that blockexplorer format, but it's the basis for my tutorial
 490 2014-07-23 11:08:00 <stonecoldpat> sorry for interrupting current conversation: ive been trying to do addmultisigaddress using json-rpc (java), but I get a parsing error, although it works fine on command line, (according to the help msg, difference between cli and rpc should be a comma between 2 and public keys) - the command is addmultisigaddress 2, [\"0220d368a4cbddc324e3ec566b6250a0b9655b96e568ebe1e4a15dd8f49cbb2cb4\"
 491 2014-07-23 11:08:00 <stonecoldpat> ,\"02965efa7c916c2ec8d0909a9ab907a0dfc8210e37ab406803211de524165d3b14\"]"
 492 2014-07-23 11:08:44 <venzen> i'm out - thanks sipa & wumpus
 493 2014-07-23 11:08:47 <venzen> ok, well, as always... enlightenment at #bitcoin-dev
 494 2014-07-23 11:08:54 HANTI is now known as hanti
 495 2014-07-23 11:09:31 <wumpus> you can always use the word metadata, for everything that is part of, or computed from, the original data - that's why government agencies and companies like the word so much
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 498 2014-07-23 11:14:43 <venzen> thanks wumpus, i'll see if it's really necessary - didn't know blockexplorer was being creative with their formatting of the raw transaction components
 499 2014-07-23 11:15:52 adopted_scouser has joined
 500 2014-07-23 11:17:50 <venzen> wumpus:  the dev doc for Transactions you refered me to does use the word meta-data for vin_sz, etc, but of course, selectively - some meta-data (script length in bytes) is not displayed by blockexplorer.com
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 504 2014-07-23 11:19:17 <venzen> glad i asked here and was disabused of the notion that raw transaction output was somehow standarized - assumption can be like stepping on a rake :D
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 506 2014-07-23 11:20:09 <stonecoldpat> venzen: http://codesuppository.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/transaction-input-signatures-in-bitcoin.html has a good article about how messed up some transactions are
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 508 2014-07-23 11:20:28 <stonecoldpat> majority of transactions follow a standard output, but not all of them
 509 2014-07-23 11:24:31 <venzen> stonecoldpat: thanks for that - i'm writing an introductory tutorial about standard transactions and its funny how trying to explain something simply just runs you up against areas where your own comprehension is fuzzy!
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 511 2014-07-23 11:25:13 <venzen> ping jcorgan
 512 2014-07-23 11:26:36 <sipa> venzen: it's not really being creative
 513 2014-07-23 11:26:42 <sipa> venzen: it just shows the data in a human readable way
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 515 2014-07-23 11:27:29 <venzen> sipa: granted, i made the assumption that their output was standard
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 517 2014-07-23 11:29:03 <venzen> btw, if i wanted to make the output of the RPC getrawtransaction command human readable... what format is the output of that command?
 518 2014-07-23 11:29:20 <stonecoldpat> verzen: should be JSON
 519 2014-07-23 11:29:37 <venzen> stonecoldpat: it seems to be hex
 520 2014-07-23 11:30:07 <stonecoldpat> venzen: try decoderawtransaction <hex string>
 521 2014-07-23 11:31:26 <stonecoldpat> getrawtransaction will be hex, and then decoderawtransaction will be json
 522 2014-07-23 11:31:49 <venzen> stonecoldpat: i'll try. With getrawtransaction <txid> i get a few screens full of continuous output (appears to be hex) - no whitespace [snip]
 523 2014-07-23 11:31:52 <venzen> oh ok
 524 2014-07-23 11:32:47 <sipa> venzen: or use getrawtransaction <txid> 1
 525 2014-07-23 11:32:55 <sipa> which decodes immediately
 526 2014-07-23 11:33:16 <venzen> allright!
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 528 2014-07-23 11:34:30 <sipa> but i wouldn't call that standard either
 529 2014-07-23 11:34:38 <sipa> the data itself is just the binary format
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 531 2014-07-23 11:38:37 <venzen> sipa: i see what you mean, the decoded output is a slice of the totality
 532 2014-07-23 11:40:30 <venzen> as developers, do you have ideas about the best (or a prefered) format to present transactions to learners? I thought the blockexplorer.com output is ok - any opinions?
 533 2014-07-23 11:44:39 <iwilcox> blockexplorer might imply some dodgy mental models; I think it uses the term "from address" and "address balance", so watch out for that
 534 2014-07-23 11:45:06 <iwilcox> Depends on your audience how much that matters, of course.
 535 2014-07-23 11:46:41 Iriez has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 536 2014-07-23 11:47:04 <venzen> iwilcox: i'm consciously addressing the myth of the "from address" in my tutorial and i like the be.com display format because it doesn't mention addresses in those misconceived ways (well not in the raw transaction output at least)
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 538 2014-07-23 11:47:54 <venzen> and it shows both scriptSig and scriptPubKey in the correct contexts
 539 2014-07-23 11:47:56 <iwilcox> Hrm.  They do, or did, somewhere; I used them as an example-of-bad in my no-from-address posting.
 540 2014-07-23 11:48:39 <venzen> ok, thanks for pointing that out,  i'll be on the lookout for that
 541 2014-07-23 11:49:00 <iwilcox> venzen: "All popular blockchain explorers (at time of writing) attempt to show all last-sent-to addresses for a transaction in an effort to be user-friendly, and either show a suggestive arrow or even (in the case of blockexplorer.com) explicitly label the last-sent-to as «from address»"
 542 2014-07-23 11:49:46 skinnkavaj has joined
 543 2014-07-23 11:50:49 <venzen> iwilcox: i just checked and you're right: e.g. http://blockexplorer.com/address/17rfobSZ8Dj61c8sanhzzR76ADMjWYYpCP
 544 2014-07-23 11:52:22 <sipa> venzen: show an example of the binary data, annotated
 545 2014-07-23 11:52:32 <sipa> venzen: like on the protocol description page on the wiki
 546 2014-07-23 11:54:00 <venzen> this aspect is difficult to communicate to end-users because they need to grasp some very technical nuts and bolts of the protocol in order to understand _why_ there is not a from address, but only UTXOs ... the language of payment as well as the language of Bitcoin naturally leads the mind to the conclusion that addresses send and receive
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 548 2014-07-23 11:55:32 <sipa> if that's what you want to explain, i wouldn't bother going into the technical details of transactions at all
 549 2014-07-23 11:55:48 <sipa> i like the explanation here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
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 551 2014-07-23 11:56:36 <venzen> sipa: very good idea - I will, this also introduces the notion that there is not a single display format for transactions
 552 2014-07-23 11:56:45 <uiop> if you define "address" as "equivalence class of scripts, with isomorphism defined as identical sets of initial stacks which evalutate to true", then addresses to receive
 553 2014-07-23 11:56:56 <uiop> s/to/do/
 554 2014-07-23 11:57:11 <sipa> an address is not an equivalence class of scripts... it is just a single script
 555 2014-07-23 11:57:21 <venzen> oh yes, you refered me there yesterday and the wiki "change" page is particularly good
 556 2014-07-23 11:57:23 <uiop> and the "naive" definition of "address" is just a special case of that
 557 2014-07-23 11:57:39 <uiop> close enough for government work
 558 2014-07-23 11:58:50 <venzen> hold on... an address is a script? I thought it was a special hashed presentation of a public key...
 559 2014-07-23 11:59:49 <sipa> venzen: a 1xxxx address is a shorthand for the script OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
 560 2014-07-23 11:59:52 <wumpus> an address can be mapped to an output script, a script doesn't always map to an address
 561 2014-07-23 12:00:01 <uiop> sipa: i'm implicitly identifying addresses with their std scripts, then playing fast-and-loose-ish :)
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 563 2014-07-23 12:00:36 <venzen> sipa: wumpus: well that's great insight
 564 2014-07-23 12:00:41 <sipa> a 3xxxxx address is a shorthand for: OP_HASH160 <scriptHash> OP_EQUAL
 565 2014-07-23 12:00:59 <venzen> multisig
 566 2014-07-23 12:01:04 <sipa> no, p2sh
 567 2014-07-23 12:01:14 <sipa> (which can be used for multisig, but you can't tell from just that)
 568 2014-07-23 12:01:32 <venzen> i see
 569 2014-07-23 12:01:41 <uiop> wumpus: true, good point
 570 2014-07-23 12:01:44 <sipa> there's the historic accident in identifying pay-to-pubkey scripts with the same address as their equivalent pay-to-pubkeyhash form would
 571 2014-07-23 12:02:25 * uiop will work this out on paper when he has the time
 572 2014-07-23 12:02:26 <sipa> making addresses both be used as shorthands for destination scripts, and as identifiers for public keys
 573 2014-07-23 12:02:34 <venzen> so the scriptPubKey in a standard txout - that is the receiving address itself?
 574 2014-07-23 12:02:44 <sipa> the expanded form of it, yes
 575 2014-07-23 12:02:54 <sipa> assuming there is a corresponding address
 576 2014-07-23 12:03:41 <venzen> assuming it "exists" or assuming it is not another type of script being used?
 577 2014-07-23 12:04:59 <sipa> well an output script can be everything
 578 2014-07-23 12:05:25 <sipa> if it's not one of the two standard forms that have corresponding shorthand notations ("addresses"), you can't say it *is* the address
 579 2014-07-23 12:05:37 <sipa> what is in the transaction is just the output script
 580 2014-07-23 12:05:53 <sipa> the address is what you use to construct the transaction, if it's a standard one
 581 2014-07-23 12:06:56 <uiop> venzen: if you invoke equivalent classes and then wave your wands rapidly, such concerns vanish asymptotically!
 582 2014-07-23 12:07:31 <uiop> i don't spend enough time in this channel
 583 2014-07-23 12:07:37 <venzen> sipa: right, and how does one "expand" the 1xx address form? What does it expand to? The OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
 584 2014-07-23 12:08:17 <BigBitz> any OPs alive?
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 586 2014-07-23 12:09:00 <venzen> uiop: hehe, i don't know what you mean, but its bewildering my delicate mind!
 587 2014-07-23 12:09:03 <sipa> venzen: decode the base58check, which results in 00 <pubkeyhash> for 1xxxx
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 589 2014-07-23 12:09:18 <sipa> then turn it into the binary form for OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
 590 2014-07-23 12:09:44 <venzen> fantastic, i get it
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 593 2014-07-23 12:10:47 <sipa> for p2sh addresses, the decoding will result in 05 <scripthash>
 594 2014-07-23 12:11:05 <venzen> just a moment while i cross-ref
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 599 2014-07-23 12:13:37 <venzen> sipa: those prefixes 00 and 05, are they OP codes? I can't find them on the wiki Script page...
 600 2014-07-23 12:13:39 <uiop> venzen: sorry, i meant: you said ("...or assuming it is not another type of script being used?"). and what i originally sloppily made an attempt to say....      oh, i just realized i reverse what i meant to say wrt the script and the stack
 601 2014-07-23 12:13:47 <sipa> venzen: no, they're address version bytes
 602 2014-07-23 12:13:49 * uiop is le tired
 603 2014-07-23 12:13:59 <venzen> ah ok
 604 2014-07-23 12:14:02 <sipa> version 0 is used for pay-to-pubkeyhash adresses, version 5 for p2sh
 605 2014-07-23 12:14:11 <venzen> sure
 606 2014-07-23 12:14:21 <uiop> i think i'm gonna work out and write up what i mean though
 607 2014-07-23 12:14:23 <venzen> as per the examples in the Transaction wiki page... i get it
 608 2014-07-23 12:14:37 <venzen> you explain it much better, however
 609 2014-07-23 12:14:53 <uiop> if that ever happens, i'll be sure to link in here
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 611 2014-07-23 12:16:03 <venzen> uiop, you know what they say about procrastination and Class wands... basically, don't procrastinate :)
 612 2014-07-23 12:16:28 <uiop> (err, actually i didn't "reverse" it, but how i stated the definition of isomorphism wasn't wuite right)
 613 2014-07-23 12:16:42 <uiop> *quite
 614 2014-07-23 12:17:14 <uiop> venzen: "wands" makes me think of "/me puts on his wizard hat..." ...
 615 2014-07-23 12:17:15 <uiop> hehe
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 621 2014-07-23 12:24:03 <venzen> sipa: so the 1x and 3x addresses versions expand to their respective scripts with HASH160 versions of the underlying public key in <pubkeyhash>.
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 623 2014-07-23 12:25:14 <sipa> for 1x addresses, yes
 624 2014-07-23 12:25:24 <sipa> for 3x addresses it's a scriptHash rather than a pubkeyHash
 625 2014-07-23 12:25:29 <kingkom> Hey! Has anyone here very used the blockchain RPC api with curl before? If so, how do you obtain the CA cert of https://rpc.blockchain.com/ so that you can send the request with the JSON-rpc?
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 627 2014-07-23 12:25:41 <sipa> kingkom: ask them
 628 2014-07-23 12:26:29 <drizztbsd> kingkom: Firefox can't find the server at rpc.blockchain.com.
 629 2014-07-23 12:26:30 <sipa> kingkom: them == blockchain.info
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 631 2014-07-23 12:27:33 <venzen> what does one get if you unpack or decode the scriptSig from the input to the tx? I see the HASH160 version of the address that previously received the UTXO (now being spent), but what is the significance of the hex that precedes it?
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 633 2014-07-23 12:28:01 <venzen> is it a signature?
 634 2014-07-23 12:28:04 <sipa> the signatures or whatever data necessary to satisfy the output script
 635 2014-07-23 12:28:20 <venzen> great
 636 2014-07-23 12:29:09 <venzen> scriptSig puts that on the stack and scriptPubKey starts its operations from there.
 637 2014-07-23 12:29:21 <venzen> thanks, sipa
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 639 2014-07-23 12:29:56 <uiop> venzen: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.h      https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp
 640 2014-07-23 12:30:29 <uiop> venzen: (optimistically saving a roundtrip by omiting the check of whether c++ code is useful to you :)
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 642 2014-07-23 12:32:03 <uiop> but your use of "stack" in that previous sentence gave me a felling it is
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 645 2014-07-23 12:32:56 <venzen> uiop: thanks, i'm C++ conversant, yet my actual objective here is a tutorial about transactions for end-users... it's become a tech facts verification journey so i can avoid speaking nonsense!
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 648 2014-07-23 12:34:23 <uiop> venzen: but virtualmachine interpreters are so purdy, how can you not peak?
 649 2014-07-23 12:34:54 * venzen blushes
 650 2014-07-23 12:35:17 <venzen> thanks all - you're scholars and gentlemen, as always
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 670 2014-07-23 13:11:36 <hearn> sipa: is there somewhere I can whack a debugging printf when a CCoins is being cleared?
 671 2014-07-23 13:11:48 <hearn> sipa: i'm trying to debug why the utxo set ends up looking wrong at a point in the regtest
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 678 2014-07-23 13:14:54 <raistlinthewiz> hey guys we have develop a new stratum server implementation; https://github.com/CoiniumServ/CoiniumServ check it out
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 688 2014-07-23 13:24:45 <sipa> hearn: what is bitsquare?
 689 2014-07-23 13:25:16 <hearn> sipa: p2p exchange app
 690 2014-07-23 13:25:16 <sipa> hearn: the only place where i know that happens is in ConnectInputs (iirc) with an assignments of CCoins()
 691 2014-07-23 13:25:36 <hearn> sipa: desktop app, uses p2p dht network for storing offers/bids, bitcoinj for a local spv wallet
 692 2014-07-23 13:25:43 <hearn> sipa: it's looking pretty nice, bitsquare.io
 693 2014-07-23 13:25:55 <hearn> may use/integrate tlsnotary in future as a form of dispute mediation
 694 2014-07-23 13:26:04 <hearn> sipa: hm, ok. i'll take a look there.
 695 2014-07-23 13:26:23 <sipa> hearn: but from what you've told me, it looked like there was an empty tx in the mempool, would (now that i think about it) be completely broken
 696 2014-07-23 13:26:46 <sipa> oh
 697 2014-07-23 13:26:53 <hearn> well getrawmempool shows the tx hash being there, but the utxo set gave the pruned entry indeed
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 699 2014-07-23 13:26:59 <hearn> so yes i'm confused how that can happen.
 700 2014-07-23 13:27:24 <sipa> ah
 701 2014-07-23 13:27:26 <sipa> no, i see!
 702 2014-07-23 13:27:43 <sipa> so there's a pruned CCoins in CCoinsViewCache (pcoinsTip)
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 704 2014-07-23 13:28:02 <sipa> which is perfectly normal, before the cache is flushed but some entry was completely spent (or reorged)
 705 2014-07-23 13:28:17 <hearn> why is being reorged like being spent, in this case?
 706 2014-07-23 13:28:25 <sipa> both remove outputs
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 708 2014-07-23 13:28:42 <hearn> actually i'm starting to wonder if this is a bug in the pull tester/regtest logic itself
 709 2014-07-23 13:28:48 <sipa> no
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 711 2014-07-23 13:29:07 <sipa> it's the bug in the code that is exposed since #4505
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 713 2014-07-23 13:29:28 <sipa> the CCoinsViewMempool implementation does not deal well with the underlying cache having existing but spent outputs
 714 2014-07-23 13:29:35 <sipa> i'll fix it
 715 2014-07-23 13:29:40 <sipa> thanks for reporting :)
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 717 2014-07-23 13:30:11 <hearn> awesome
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 719 2014-07-23 13:32:35 <hearn> though actually .... argh now i'm confused. i added another test block to the regtest and bitcoinj is also rejecting a spend of the mempool tx, it also thinks it's been spent. but i can't find any transaction that's spending it. the txns pull tester creates are very weird/artificial, they often don't contain signatures, so i'm wondering if it's producing duplicated transactions somewhere without me being able to spot it
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 723 2014-07-23 13:35:54 <hearn> i'll wait for your fix and see what happens
 724 2014-07-23 13:37:25 <sipa> #4575
 725 2014-07-23 13:38:37 <hearn> sipa: a comment explaining why ordering of the checks is critical would be nice
 726 2014-07-23 13:38:47 * hearn tries the fix
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 728 2014-07-23 13:39:24 <sipa> hearn: lazy operation: i'm first waiting for pulltester :)
 729 2014-07-23 13:39:29 <sipa> but i'll add a comment, indeed
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 731 2014-07-23 13:40:10 <hearn> yay
 732 2014-07-23 13:40:17 <hearn> UTXO query mismatches: 0
 733 2014-07-23 13:40:56 <hearn> pull tester is happy even with my additional utxo query tests, so i think the patch works
 734 2014-07-23 13:41:47 <hearn> i think my "o" key is breaking :(
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 751 2014-07-23 14:12:56 <venzen> am i right to say that bitcoins (lowercase 'b') don't exist?
 752 2014-07-23 14:13:21 <venzen> in that there is no data structure for them?
 753 2014-07-23 14:13:45 <sipa> the data structure is int64_t :)
 754 2014-07-23 14:14:03 <sipa> but no, a bitcoin (the currency unit, or any subdivision thereof) has no actual representation
 755 2014-07-23 14:14:15 <venzen> hmmm
 756 2014-07-23 14:14:20 <venzen> you have a point tho
 757 2014-07-23 14:14:22 <sipa> the closest approximation is a UTXO entry
 758 2014-07-23 14:14:34 <sipa> which has a particular value in satoshi's, expressed as a int64_t
 759 2014-07-23 14:14:37 <venzen> yes, this is what i'm driving at
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 761 2014-07-23 14:14:45 <wumpus> UTXO entries, which are called 'Coins' internally
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 763 2014-07-23 14:15:23 <venzen> the amazing thing is we are transacting ownership of UTXOs but calling their iterant amount "bitcoin" :)
 764 2014-07-23 14:16:10 <venzen> sipa: so this line of dicussion is probably as old as Bitcoin, right?
 765 2014-07-23 14:16:15 <wumpus> it's just a name
 766 2014-07-23 14:16:25 <venzen> yeh
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 771 2014-07-23 14:20:27 <venzen> if one is familiar with the code/protocol then this is self-evident, but this revelation blows the head-top off most people
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 775 2014-07-23 14:24:56 <helo> not sure... most people realize that fundamentally a digital asset doesn't really exist in the traditional sense
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 777 2014-07-23 14:25:17 <hearn> bitcoin is often described as a distributed ledger
 778 2014-07-23 14:25:20 <hearn> which is pretty close
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 780 2014-07-23 14:25:33 <jgarzik> agree, though I've grown to prefer "register of assets"
 781 2014-07-23 14:25:51 <jgarzik> "your bitcoins are stored in the cloud; bitcoins do not move, they simply change owners"
 782 2014-07-23 14:26:02 <venzen> indeed and, well, i say that casually (it doesn't exist), but only after i've put my head-top back on
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 784 2014-07-23 14:26:32 <venzen> the value is in the public ledger, but the underlying asset is nowhere
 785 2014-07-23 14:26:32 <jgarzik> the blockchain is the timeline of events, but it is the _evaluation_ of the blockchain that produces the useful results everyone seeks
 786 2014-07-23 14:27:06 <venzen> jgarzik: how do you mean evaluation?
 787 2014-07-23 14:27:10 <stonecoldpat> jgarzik: i like the description - simply change owners, very clear way to explain it
 788 2014-07-23 14:27:24 <sipa> venzen: blocks are essentially signed and combined 'patches' to the UTXO set
 789 2014-07-23 14:27:31 <jgarzik> To me, the blockchain is the ledger
 790 2014-07-23 14:27:34 <sipa> transactions consume UTXO entries and add new ones
 791 2014-07-23 14:27:37 <jgarzik> and a ledger is a timeline of events
 792 2014-07-23 14:27:50 <jgarzik> a chart of balances / chart of accounts is what is achieved by evaluating the blockchain
 793 2014-07-23 14:27:52 <sipa> applying all blocks in sequence to the initially empty UTXO set gives you the current state
 794 2014-07-23 14:28:08 <venzen> a-ha
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 803 2014-07-23 14:31:23 <venzen> it's amazing from the pov that the blockchain is the true asset, yet people still fall back into the mode whereby they want to "back" cryptocurrencies (as apparent tokens of value) with Gold
 804 2014-07-23 14:31:46 <venzen> its funny
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 807 2014-07-23 14:33:24 <stonecoldpat> venzen: the blockchain just provides a platform to store bitcoins (or key/value pairs) - its value is based on perception - while I wouldnt' want it backed by Gold - it could very well be in the future
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 812 2014-07-23 14:34:47 <jgarzik> It is a choice.  You can certainly make a USDcoin, backed by USD.  "Backed by" is simply one or more parties agree to exchange the digital currency for good X.
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 814 2014-07-23 14:35:24 <helo> (woahdude) bitcoin is already backed by gold
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 816 2014-07-23 14:35:59 <venzen> stonecoldpat: jgarzik: sure, and the magic word is "perception" ... and "consensus" value too i guess
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 820 2014-07-23 14:38:43 <hearn> sipa: why do you think satoshi chose a design where the ledger consists of UTXOs and not explicitly changing balance records per key?
 821 2014-07-23 14:39:13 <sipa> hearn: avoid replay problems, avoid privacy issues?
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 823 2014-07-23 14:39:58 <sipa> or rather, make privacy-improving behavior (not reusing keys) exactly as cheap as the privacy-harming case
 824 2014-07-23 14:40:02 <hearn> right
 825 2014-07-23 14:40:05 <hearn> that's a better phrasing indeed
 826 2014-07-23 14:40:18 <hearn> that's probably how i'll put it in future
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 857 2014-07-23 15:16:30 <berndj-blackout> stonecoldpat, (relevant nick too btw), do you know about Rai stones? some explanatory value there too imho - the stones don't move but owners change. there's even a stone at the bottom of the ocean!
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 945 2014-07-23 16:42:48 * Sleepnbum <3's the btc devs
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 981 2014-07-23 17:07:19 <bsm117532> If I create a new script type, will it be propagated on the network?  Or does bitcoin only propagate known types?
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 983 2014-07-23 17:09:35 <sipa> it only propagates standard transactions
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 985 2014-07-23 17:09:49 <bsm117532> What is required to create a new transaction?  Should I file a BIP?
 986 2014-07-23 17:09:52 <sipa> which means known template, not over size limits, only pushes in inputs, ...
 987 2014-07-23 17:10:07 <sipa> just start using it on testnet
 988 2014-07-23 17:10:17 <bsm117532> Oh, testnet will propagate non-standard scripts?
 989 2014-07-23 17:10:18 <sipa> (which does not have this rule)
 990 2014-07-23 17:10:20 <sipa> yes
 991 2014-07-23 17:10:28 <bsm117532> Cool, thanks.
 992 2014-07-23 17:10:35 <bsm117532> And again moving that to the main network requires a BIP?
 993 2014-07-23 17:11:02 <sipa> not really
 994 2014-07-23 17:11:13 <sipa> BIPS are for things that require network agreement
 995 2014-07-23 17:11:19 <bsm117532> Then what is required to get it propagated?
 996 2014-07-23 17:11:36 <sipa> changing the source code
 997 2014-07-23 17:12:07 <bsm117532> Ah okay, easy enough, thanks.
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 999 2014-07-23 17:12:46 <sipa> i mean: submit a pull request to add it as a standard type, get that accepted, wait for a new release, wait for a majority of the network nodes to upgrade to that release
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1002 2014-07-23 17:13:08 <bsm117532> Yeah, gotcha.
1003 2014-07-23 17:13:33 <bsm117532> Is there any web page out there listing interesting non-standard scripts (besides the wiki?)
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1072 2014-07-23 18:40:48 <btc111> "Ethereum has vast potential, whereas Bitcoin won't ever do anything well beyond implementing a currency," programmer Nick Szabo, another early Bitcoin proponent who's recently begun tweeting after an extended absence from the internet, told us in an email several weeks ago.
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1074 2014-07-23 18:41:58 <rnicoll> Ethereum is great if your entire userbase is technophiles
1075 2014-07-23 18:42:13 <btc111> looks like we need to implement ethereum functionality, or slowly lose relevance and be replaced
1076 2014-07-23 18:42:48 <kazcw> to replace bitcoin, ethereum would need to implement ethereum functionality
1077 2014-07-23 18:42:50 <btc111> actaully, they're creating an app store right into the client. where you can use any contracts with the click of a button
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1079 2014-07-23 18:44:22 <rnicoll> that's a good start at least. I don't know, I worry about scaling, ease of use... if they pull it off, it'll be amazing, and I've been fantastically wrong before, but...
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1083 2014-07-23 18:45:40 <btc111> and they'll probably raise 50k+ btc. thats $25 million to hire 100 devs and UI/UX guys to do it. meanwhile bitcoin devs aren't even paid.
1084 2014-07-23 18:45:46 <btc111> its pathetic.
1085 2014-07-23 18:46:16 <btc111> actually i already know that ethereum's plan is to approach the bitcoin core dev's with $300k/yr salary offers.
1086 2014-07-23 18:46:27 <rnicoll> I thought a few at the core were salaried?
1087 2014-07-23 18:47:27 <btc111> they're putting aside $3-4 million to take the best bitcoin core dev's and bring them to ethereum
1088 2014-07-23 18:47:32 <btc111> bitcoin is fucked.
1089 2014-07-23 18:48:04 <sipa> #bitcoin please
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1094 2014-07-23 18:52:43 <BlackPrapor> btc111: imho ethereum guys will make a run with all btc they collect in the next 42 days
1095 2014-07-23 18:53:17 <sipa> #bitcoin please
1096 2014-07-23 18:53:54 <btc111> they're selling for cash so they dont have a moral hazard
1097 2014-07-23 18:54:24 <sipa> please
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1099 2014-07-23 18:56:26 <nodedubyateef> anyone around that knows how to get bitcore's insight-api exposed as a webservice beyond just localhost?
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1103 2014-07-23 19:00:27 <earlz> is etherium even open source? Last I checked their "wallet" was obfuscated Java
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1107 2014-07-23 19:05:15 <rnicoll> not last time I checked, but hopefully at some point :-/
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1110 2014-07-23 19:10:33 <earlz> I heard they were wanting to patent some aspects of it, to make sure no clone coins can exist
1111 2014-07-23 19:10:52 Adlai has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1112 2014-07-23 19:11:00 <earlz> I think the whole idea of trying to "close" a distributed system is just stupid
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1117 2014-07-23 19:13:14 * rnicoll nods
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1120 2014-07-23 19:13:37 <rnicoll> feels a lot like going against the entire idea of the technologies
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1123 2014-07-23 19:14:46 <earlz> it's because it suppose to make the founders rich, not to improve how people conduct business
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1125 2014-07-23 19:15:24 <earlz> btw, is it common to craft commits in the name of other people?
1126 2014-07-23 19:15:37 <earlz> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4331#issuecomment-48266114
1127 2014-07-23 19:16:00 <earlz> He made a commit with my idea under my name. I like the idea, but I've never seen this done before heh
1128 2014-07-23 19:16:21 <rnicoll> never seen it with new code, certainly have done it when merging from Bitcoin to an altcoin
1129 2014-07-23 19:18:11 <earlz> heh the idea is from another coin, but the implementation is different because the other coin is based on bitcoin 0.9 and a lot of refactoring has taken place where it's implemented
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1131 2014-07-23 19:19:30 <rnicoll> is it your code at all, or just your idea?
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1133 2014-07-23 19:19:41 <gmaxwell> earlz: when someone else did the actual work and the person putting it in git is just doing some superficial code wrangling and thinks it should be attributed to other people, yes.
1134 2014-07-23 19:20:09 <gmaxwell> earlz: I do this with some regulatity in other projects when people send me patches and asking them to use git (and to send a git format patch) would be rude.
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1139 2014-07-23 19:27:35 <earlz> I like the idea, I've just never seen it done before
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1165 2014-07-23 20:11:19 <Luke-Jr> earlz: it's pretty much a best practice for attribution
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1191 2014-07-23 20:40:44 <pkgsrceror> Hi, i'm working on updating bitcoin in pkgsrc. We have 0.8.6 in pkgsrc-wip already. After updating the pkgsrc files, here's the output of the build: http://www.pastebay.com/1470155
1192 2014-07-23 20:44:21 <pkgsrceror> I can do stuff like: aclocal; autoheader; automake -a --foreign -i; autoconf; but that fails as well in a different way.
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1205 2014-07-23 20:55:54 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: Are you building on NetBSD?
1206 2014-07-23 20:57:46 <pkgsrceror> Yes, but I build on Linux too and it's failing there as well.
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1208 2014-07-23 20:57:57 <kruug> cd ..
1209 2014-07-23 20:57:58 <pkgsrceror> I would test it on SunOS eventually too, midnightmagic.
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1211 2014-07-23 20:58:23 <pkgsrceror> and OpenBSD probably
1212 2014-07-23 20:58:23 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: I build irregularly on NetBSD and my last successful build was by hand; what git commit are you building from?
1213 2014-07-23 20:58:36 <pkgsrceror> I don't build from master, but from tagged versions.
1214 2014-07-23 20:58:45 <midnightmagic> .. what tagged version are you building from?
1215 2014-07-23 20:58:56 <pkgsrceror> 0.9.2.1 - like the log says
1216 2014-07-23 20:59:41 <pkgsrceror> I can send you my pkgsrc files, if you're interested.
1217 2014-07-23 21:00:01 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: a pkgsrc version doesn't always correspond to a build number. I'm just being thorough. How can I get ahold of you the next build attempt I make?
1218 2014-07-23 21:00:17 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: Sure. Throw it up somewhere or commit to a branch of wip on github
1219 2014-07-23 21:00:18 <pkgsrceror> rodent@NetBSD.org
1220 2014-07-23 21:00:43 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: okie doke. Are you in a hurry?
1221 2014-07-23 21:00:55 <pkgsrceror> Would be cool to sort this within 2 weeks.
1222 2014-07-23 21:02:21 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: Any chance you could tell someone that NetBSD 6.1.3_PATCH as of Apr 9 2014 panics when run inside a KVM container configured with 8G ram and 5 CPU?
1223 2014-07-23 21:02:25 <midnightmagic> :-]
1224 2014-07-23 21:02:34 <midnightmagic> (running bitcoind)
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1226 2014-07-23 21:03:43 <pkgsrceror> eep
1227 2014-07-23 21:03:48 <pkgsrceror> Could you file a PR?
1228 2014-07-23 21:04:00 <pkgsrceror> with the send-pr utility
1229 2014-07-23 21:04:01 AaronvanW has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1230 2014-07-23 21:04:09 <pkgsrceror> 6.1.4 is out BTW
1231 2014-07-23 21:04:28 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: :-/ I get much less spam when I don't
1232 2014-07-23 21:04:30 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: Ah nice, thanks.
1233 2014-07-23 21:04:32 <sipa> pkgsrceror: too old autotools?
1234 2014-07-23 21:04:39 <sipa> pkgsrceror: otherwise, talk to cfields perhaps
1235 2014-07-23 21:04:40 WeCluster has quit (Quit: WeCluster)
1236 2014-07-23 21:05:18 glen42 has joined
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1238 2014-07-23 21:06:20 <pkgsrceror> sipa, that build log is from NetBSD 6.0.1 with pkgsrc-2013Q1, so yes sort of old. However, on my development machine which is NetBSD 6.1.2 and pkgsrc-current, it fails too. These pkgsrc files fail under CentOS 6.5 (latest stable) plus a newish branch of pkgsrc, so i think it's an issue with bitcoin's autotools files.
1239 2014-07-23 21:06:24 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: I just ran autogen on tag v0.9.2.1 and it's working for me with autoconf-2.69nb2 and automake-1.14 ?
1240 2014-07-23 21:06:27 <dhill> bitcoind is not going to work on openbsd..
1241 2014-07-23 21:06:42 <midnightmagic> dhill: Why not?
1242 2014-07-23 21:06:48 akstunt600 has joined
1243 2014-07-23 21:06:57 <dhill> leveldb needs a kernel with UBC
1244 2014-07-23 21:07:08 <dhill> go run the leveldb regress tests on openbsd.. they fail
1245 2014-07-23 21:07:18 <pkgsrceror> midnightmagic: I have those versions of autotools and automake installed.
1246 2014-07-23 21:07:21 <kazcw> pkgsrceror: I think I had that problem until I forced it to use cmake, don't remember how
1247 2014-07-23 21:07:33 <pkgsrceror> I can run autoreconf from the shell and `echo $?` returns 0.
1248 2014-07-23 21:07:39 <pkgsrceror> although it throws the same warnings
1249 2014-07-23 21:07:41 <dhill> the database always gets corrupted on IBD
1250 2014-07-23 21:07:52 bsm117532 has joined
1251 2014-07-23 21:08:26 Rez has joined
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1253 2014-07-23 21:08:31 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: I got this but just warnings: http://pastebin.com/pKcQJ5fA
1254 2014-07-23 21:09:23 baldur has joined
1255 2014-07-23 21:10:06 <pkgsrceror> Here's the newer version of the pkgsrc-wip files i'm using: https://www.sendspace.com/file/k4hxyn
1256 2014-07-23 21:10:16 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1257 2014-07-23 21:11:01 napedia has joined
1258 2014-07-23 21:12:12 <pkgsrceror> midnightmagic: that's the same output i get when running it by hand, but fails when run under pkgsrc
1259 2014-07-23 21:13:04 Skirmant has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1260 2014-07-23 21:13:25 <kazcw> pkgsrc uses bmake by default, bmake won't work
1261 2014-07-23 21:13:46 Skirmant has joined
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1263 2014-07-23 21:15:42 <elichai2> hi
1264 2014-07-23 21:16:24 chax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1265 2014-07-23 21:17:02 chax has joined
1266 2014-07-23 21:17:11 <pkgsrceror> kazcw: gmake is MAKE_PROGRAM in this instance
1267 2014-07-23 21:17:18 l_l_l_l_l has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1268 2014-07-23 21:18:23 sahlhoff has quit (Quit: sahlhoff)
1269 2014-07-23 21:19:14 sabfer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1270 2014-07-23 21:21:34 chax has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1271 2014-07-23 21:23:33 <pkgsrceror> midnightmagic: if you send me that PR, i'll file it for you
1272 2014-07-23 21:24:02 <Krellan> The new "whitelisted" field in getpeerinfo is useful. Does whitelisting also give exemption from maxconnections?
1273 2014-07-23 21:24:03 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: okay thanks. I can do that.
1274 2014-07-23 21:24:08 <Krellan> Would such a feature be useful to add, if not already there?
1275 2014-07-23 21:24:28 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1276 2014-07-23 21:24:50 <sipa> Krellan: no, yes
1277 2014-07-23 21:25:07 <Krellan> sipa: Thanks
1278 2014-07-23 21:26:01 <pkgsrceror> midnightmagic: you can contact me for any testing regarding this package under pkgsrc as well. After these issues are sorted, I'm going to test it on all the build machines to which i have access.
1279 2014-07-23 21:26:18 ttll has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1280 2014-07-23 21:26:20 <Krellan> Would there be downside to adding that? The assumption is that people only whitelist networks they trust, right?
1281 2014-07-23 21:26:22 <pkgsrceror> will provide patches, etc. as necessary
1282 2014-07-23 21:26:32 <midnightmagic> pkgsrceror: ah nice, glad to hear it.
1283 2014-07-23 21:27:27 <pkgsrceror> OK, i'm out. you guys were super helpful
1284 2014-07-23 21:27:28 <sipa> Krellan: my only worry is that they'd add large range of the internet just to get more connections...
1285 2014-07-23 21:27:34 <pkgsrceror> would be nice if all IRC channels were like this
1286 2014-07-23 21:28:24 pkgsrceror has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1287 2014-07-23 21:29:23 <midnightmagic> \o
1288 2014-07-23 21:30:05 l_l_l_l_l has joined
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1294 2014-07-23 21:34:20 <Krellan> Hmm, whitelisting large range of the internet would be a pretty dumb thing to do, I would think, and would it get you any more connections?
1295 2014-07-23 21:34:34 kermit has joined
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1297 2014-07-23 21:35:02 <Krellan> I get all the connections I can handle until my DSL gets slow, had to set an intentional limit.
1298 2014-07-23 21:36:09 <Krellan> Whitelisting status wouldn't make a difference in my ability to solicit external connections, I already get as many coming in as I can handle.
1299 2014-07-23 21:37:02 <sipa> yes, it would be a bad idea, and no it would not give you more connections
1300 2014-07-23 21:37:04 <kazcw> the issue isn't that it would work, but that people might do it
1301 2014-07-23 21:37:25 <gmaxwell> need some protection against memory corruption from that…
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1303 2014-07-23 21:38:03 <Krellan> Memory corruption?
1304 2014-07-23 21:38:26 <sipa> people patch their client to allow more connections, and then complain that their memory gets corrupted
1305 2014-07-23 21:39:03 <Krellan> more than 125 connections?
1306 2014-07-23 21:39:55 <sipa> more than 1000
1307 2014-07-23 21:40:39 <jcorgan> do you just mean out-of-memory errors, or is there some latent allocation bug that affects >125 connections?
1308 2014-07-23 21:41:00 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: select will corrupt memory if you have more than 1024 file descriptors in use.
1309 2014-07-23 21:41:14 <jcorgan> oh, nice to know
1310 2014-07-23 21:41:15 <sipa> ;;nethash
1311 2014-07-23 21:41:16 <gribble> 127901745.543
1312 2014-07-23 21:41:32 <Krellan> Ah
1313 2014-07-23 21:42:16 <Krellan> the limit of 1024 in select is rather nasty, didn't think of that
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1315 2014-07-23 21:43:13 <sipa> you can raise your max connections using -maxconnections, but it won't go above some safety limit below 1024
1316 2014-07-23 21:43:25 <sipa> if you do hack that limitation out...
1317 2014-07-23 21:45:36 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1319 2014-07-23 21:46:18 <Krellan> I wonder if we could use poll() instead, or are we married to select?
1320 2014-07-23 21:46:26 <sipa> sure we could
1321 2014-07-23 21:46:33 <sipa> someone would need to write it :)
1322 2014-07-23 21:46:36 <otila> libevent?
1323 2014-07-23 21:47:19 <sipa> please, no extra dependencies
1324 2014-07-23 21:47:39 <sipa> (yes, libevent is nice)
1325 2014-07-23 21:48:19 pfallenop has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1326 2014-07-23 21:48:29 <otila> include some stable version in the tree..  or you wanna reinvent the wheel?
1327 2014-07-23 21:48:44 sahlhoff_ has joined
1328 2014-07-23 21:49:02 <sipa> no, but satoshi already reinvented it :)
1329 2014-07-23 21:49:20 pfallenop has joined
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1334 2014-07-23 21:50:00 <jrick> is the return value of pcoinsTip->GetCoins() affected by whether an output on the best chain is spent by a tx in mempool?
1335 2014-07-23 21:50:17 BlackPrapor has quit (Client Quit)
1336 2014-07-23 21:51:16 <gmaxwell> poll would be fine except for portablity, which is why libevent exists.
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1341 2014-07-23 21:51:44 <sipa> jrick: no
1342 2014-07-23 21:51:57 <jrick> sipa: cool, thanks
1343 2014-07-23 21:52:56 <sipa> otila: sorry, ignore me; i'm too tired
1344 2014-07-23 21:53:24 atgreen has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1345 2014-07-23 21:55:01 <Shamar> Hi, I'm carefully reading https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide but I can't understand if the Merkle root of a block changes when a transaction is added and if the fact that a new block is created "lock" is ancestor so that it can't accept transactions anymore...
1346 2014-07-23 21:55:24 <Shamar> can anyone point me to the proper documentation?
1347 2014-07-23 21:56:10 <gmaxwell> Shamar: I can't follow your question. The whole purpose of mining is to create a kind of signature of a set of transactions and a history to make it costly to change.
1348 2014-07-23 21:56:24 <Shamar> s/the fact that a new block is created "lock" is ancestor so that it can't accept transactions anymore... /the fact that a new block is created "locks" his ancestor so that it can't accept transactions anymore...
1349 2014-07-23 21:56:45 <Krellan> Was reading about select.  Redefining FD_SETSIZE before including the header is a hack that is frowned upon these days, right?
1350 2014-07-23 21:57:04 <Shamar> gmaxwell, I know this (at high level) but I'm tring to understand how this actually works
1351 2014-07-23 21:57:43 <gmaxwell> There is no "lock" a block itself is immutable. If its transactions are changed the block hash changes, and the modified block has a one in 74458914455780671473 chance (currently) of being a valid block.
1352 2014-07-23 21:58:42 <Krellan> And passing in an array of fd_set, with each array element representing a chunk of 1024 fd, is another workaround that seems like a hack
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1354 2014-07-23 21:59:25 <Krellan> I like libevent because it solves the portability problems of poll()
1355 2014-07-23 21:59:28 <Shamar> so to mint a block a miner collect all the transactions to fill it completelly?
1356 2014-07-23 21:59:38 <Shamar> s/collect/collects
1357 2014-07-23 21:59:42 <sipa> Shamar: if he wants
1358 2014-07-23 21:59:52 akstunt600 has joined
1359 2014-07-23 21:59:53 <gmaxwell> Shamar: these are really basic questions, you'll probably get more help in #bitcoin
1360 2014-07-23 21:59:54 <sipa> an empty block is also valid
1361 2014-07-23 22:00:13 <Shamar> but since it's immutable, it's useless
1362 2014-07-23 22:00:19 <Shamar> right?
1363 2014-07-23 22:00:20 <sipa> no
1364 2014-07-23 22:00:22 <gmaxwell> Krellan: FD_SETSIZE is unchangable on many (most?) systems, including linux. And the FD count doesn't depend on the set but also actually the integer values of the FDs.
1365 2014-07-23 22:00:27 <Krellan> It would be a pretty substantial change though. And it would make bitcoind depend on libevent.
1366 2014-07-23 22:01:11 <Shamar> ok sorry, I thought they were dev questions
1367 2014-07-23 22:01:17 <gmaxwell> (Also ISSET is O(N) on the set size)
1368 2014-07-23 22:01:33 <sipa> really?
1369 2014-07-23 22:01:42 <sipa> not on linux afaik
1370 2014-07-23 22:01:53 <sipa> it's just a 1024 bit array
1371 2014-07-23 22:02:11 <sipa> on windows it's a list of handles
1372 2014-07-23 22:02:27 <sipa> which is o(n)
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1374 2014-07-23 22:02:38 <Krellan> Wow, FD_ISSET() is O(n)? I thought fd_set was an array of bits?
1375 2014-07-23 22:03:36 <Krellan> wow, Windows implements it as a list internally, with no way to index that list quickly by number? didn't know that. Brilliant.
1376 2014-07-23 22:03:36 <gmaxwell> Krellan: sipa corrected. :)
1377 2014-07-23 22:03:57 <gmaxwell> (I was ignoring linux because you cannot change the size on linux as you'd proposed)
1378 2014-07-23 22:04:28 <Krellan> http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html
1379 2014-07-23 22:04:29 <sipa> Krellan: handles are pretty much random 32-bit integers, not neat incrementing numvers like unix fds
1380 2014-07-23 22:04:56 <Krellan> I have vague memories of programming Windows in 1996 or so
1381 2014-07-23 22:05:38 chax has joined
1382 2014-07-23 22:06:07 <Krellan> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/111855 = Yikes, only 64, not 1024.
1383 2014-07-23 22:07:23 Dr-G has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1385 2014-07-23 22:08:13 <sipa> by default
1386 2014-07-23 22:08:22 <sipa> it can be raised to 1024
1387 2014-07-23 22:09:46 <Krellan> Good to know, wow, they added WSAPoll() but that didn't go so well: http://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2012/10/10/wsapoll-is-broken/
1388 2014-07-23 22:10:14 <otila> what about Boost Asio
1389 2014-07-23 22:10:34 JackH has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1390 2014-07-23 22:12:02 <jcorgan> otila: shudder the thought
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1392 2014-07-23 22:13:21 <Krellan> So, as for libevent, we do not want to add another bitcoind external library dependency, right? Or would the benefit outweigh this?
1393 2014-07-23 22:13:39 <Krellan> Sigh, everything's so easy until you get up to 1024 connections then it becomes hard :)
1394 2014-07-23 22:13:55 <sipa> there's no point in handling that many connections
1395 2014-07-23 22:13:58 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1396 2014-07-23 22:14:21 <sipa> the time between servicing each socket increases, hurting latency
1397 2014-07-23 22:14:32 <otila> then add epoll support without extra libs
1398 2014-07-23 22:14:33 darkee has joined
1399 2014-07-23 22:14:39 <sipa> you're better off with a few interconnected bitcoinds
1400 2014-07-23 22:14:53 <Krellan> Yep, by that time you're better off splitting program up into threads, giving each thread its own set of 1024
1401 2014-07-23 22:15:11 <Krellan> oh wait, you'd have to fork, not thread: fd numbers are a shared resource
1402 2014-07-23 22:15:13 <otila> Krellan: shudder the thought
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1405 2014-07-23 22:15:57 <Krellan> and as gmaxwell said, it's not a limit of active connections, but a limit on the fd number itself: if operating system hands you a fd >=1024 you're dead with select, even if you have few open connections.
1406 2014-07-23 22:16:41 <sipa> replacing the select call with poll would solve that, but we'd need to keep select on windows
1407 2014-07-23 22:19:09 <gmaxwell> epoll is better but linux only, the BSD/osx side has kqueue. alas. But probably not a big deal since having high numbers of connections wouldn't _generally_ be a good thing.
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1411 2014-07-23 22:20:46 <gmaxwell> asssuming 2 * 1e6 bytes / 600 seconds, 1000 connections is 26 megabits. So I suppose there is an argument for supporting more, some hosts still wouldn't be bandwidth bottlenecked at that point.
1412 2014-07-23 22:21:34 <Krellan> True
1413 2014-07-23 22:21:57 <Krellan> So would libevent be overkill? Seems like a clean way to solve the problem in a portable way.
1414 2014-07-23 22:22:53 <Krellan> Or continue using select() because it's lowest common denominator that works on all supported platforms, and just be sure to keep fd number <1024 (except on windows).
1415 2014-07-23 22:23:35 <gmaxwell> Krellan: its an extra dependency. Our preference is to be hesitant to add them.  Since this code isn't consensus critical I wouldn't oppose another one, but for what we're doing some either/or poll vs select would probably be fine.
1416 2014-07-23 22:23:54 <gmaxwell> Krellan: we do what you're descrbing as your Or currently.
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1428 2014-07-23 22:37:55 <Luke-Jr> [21:57:43] <Krellan> Wow, FD_ISSET() is O(n)? I thought fd_set was an array of bits? <-- implementation is not defined by the standard; Windows is stupid, as you note
1429 2014-07-23 22:38:08 <Luke-Jr> [22:01:12] <Krellan> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/111855 = Yikes, only 64, not 1024. <-- you can define FD_SETSIZE yourself
1430 2014-07-23 22:38:25 dims has joined
1431 2014-07-23 22:38:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: AFAIK FD_SETSIZE is *only* unchangable on glibc
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1438 2014-07-23 22:50:16 <fuzion24> are there any steps for getting bitcoin-qt building in qtcreator?
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1451 2014-07-23 22:58:26 <fuzion24> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-qt/blob/master/doc/readme-qt.rst build instructions look very out of date
1452 2014-07-23 22:58:52 <fuzion24> err sorry, ignore that.
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1465 2014-07-23 23:06:44 kruug has joined
1466 2014-07-23 23:07:00 <kruug> Is there a gitian support forum/channel/etc?
1467 2014-07-23 23:08:11 Shamar has quit (Quit: Sto andando via)
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1469 2014-07-23 23:09:06 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1477 2014-07-23 23:38:19 coinheavy has quit (Quit: coinheavy)
1478 2014-07-23 23:38:19 <Luke-Jr> kruug: not really, just here kinda
1479 2014-07-23 23:38:21 rdbell has quit (Quit: rdbell)
1480 2014-07-23 23:38:36 Eiii has joined
1481 2014-07-23 23:38:36 Eiii has quit (Changing host)
1482 2014-07-23 23:38:36 Eiii has joined
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1484 2014-07-23 23:40:45 <kruug> Luke-Jr: does gitian really only work under Ubuntu?
1485 2014-07-23 23:41:03 <kruug> I've been wracking my brain and google-fu trying to work with it under Debian...
1486 2014-07-23 23:41:21 <Luke-Jr> kruug: I have it working on Gentoo. I think Gavin runs it on Mac.
1487 2014-07-23 23:42:15 Holox has joined
1488 2014-07-23 23:43:30 dims has joined
1489 2014-07-23 23:44:14 viajero has joined
1490 2014-07-23 23:45:09 <Holox> Hey all
1491 2014-07-23 23:45:17 <Holox> Sry for my bad english, I'm french
1492 2014-07-23 23:45:39 ionstorm has joined
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1494 2014-07-23 23:46:41 <Holox> I have a question, how I can show in PHP the price of the BTC ?
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1498 2014-07-23 23:48:19 <kruug> Luke-Jr: it might be a bit off-topic, but is it pretty easy to get gitian working with altcoins?
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1500 2014-07-23 23:50:36 <sipa> kruug: ask them
1501 2014-07-23 23:51:00 <kruug> sipa: no, this would be from scratch...
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1506 2014-07-23 23:54:26 Nick____ has joined
1507 2014-07-23 23:54:45 <Nick____> Hi, I have a question about key generation spec, can anyone help me?
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1512 2014-07-23 23:58:31 <Luke-Jr> kruug: altcoins are explicitly off-topic here, ##altcoin-dev
1513 2014-07-23 23:59:11 <kruug> Luke-Jr: thank you!  I was attempting to find a channel like that, but everything I tried had no users in it...
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