1 2014-07-24 00:02:15 Holox has quit (Quit: Page closed)
   2 2014-07-24 00:02:37 <sipa> Nick____: you'll have to ask your question first
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   8 2014-07-24 00:04:22 <Nick____> ok, I'm working on mutlicurrency HD wallet. and looking for network spec params for litecoin currently. I need something like this:
   9 2014-07-24 00:04:22 <Nick____> bitcoin: {       address_version: '00',       p2sh_version: '05',       p2sh_char: '3',       privkey_version: '80',       privkey_compression_flag: '01',       extended_privkey_version: "0488ade4",       extended_pubkey_version: "0488b21e",       compressed_wif_chars: %w(K L),       uncompressed_wif_chars: %w(5),       protocol_version: 70001     },
  10 2014-07-24 00:04:46 <Nick____> can anyone tell me where should I look in bitcoin core to find this params?
  11 2014-07-24 00:07:23 <Nick____> for example, for dogecoin it looks like this:  dogecoin: {       address_version: '1e',       p2sh_version: '16',       p2sh_char: 'A',       privkey_compression_flag: '01',       privkey_version: '9e',       extended_privkey_version: "02fac398",       extended_pubkey_version: "02facafd",       compressed_wif_chars: %w(Q),       uncompressed_wif_chars: %w(6),       protocol_version: 70002     },
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  13 2014-07-24 00:08:02 <jrick> chainparams.{h,cpp}
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  22 2014-07-24 00:13:30 <Nick____> jrick: thank you!
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 176 2014-07-24 03:49:59 <Luke-Jr> thoughts on adding a nice fat warning when you try to send to an address you've sent to before?
 177 2014-07-24 03:50:55 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 178 2014-07-24 03:51:34 <gwillen> doesn't seem like it would usually be within the sender's control
 179 2014-07-24 03:51:45 <Luke-Jr> eh? of course it is
 180 2014-07-24 03:51:51 <Luke-Jr> and that's why it's a warning - in case it isn't.
 181 2014-07-24 03:51:54 wateratosthenes has joined
 182 2014-07-24 03:52:43 <Luke-Jr> something like "Warning! You have already sent bitcoins to this address before. Using an address more than once is not guaranteed to work, and may cause them to be lost. Only continue if you are sure the recipient is capable of receiving multiple payments to the same address. Send? Yes/Cancel"
 183 2014-07-24 03:59:10 banghouse has joined
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 186 2014-07-24 04:02:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, I suggested something like that previously. (in particular, there have been a number of incidents where someone made a payment twice and the reciever laughed and walked away)
 187 2014-07-24 04:02:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: was it rejected for some reason?
 188 2014-07-24 04:02:57 <Luke-Jr> or just never got to writing it?
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 190 2014-07-24 04:03:12 <gwillen> oh, I understand
 191 2014-07-24 04:03:25 <gmaxwell> no, but no one was super excited either. I think wumpus thought it was a bit sneaky. Though just hammering the don't reuse wasn't really my main goal in that proposl.
 192 2014-07-24 04:03:28 <gmaxwell> er proposal.
 193 2014-07-24 04:03:29 <gwillen> this isn't an "address reuse bad" warning, this is a "your recipient may have given you a one-use address" warning
 194 2014-07-24 04:03:35 <gmaxwell> gwillen: yes.
 195 2014-07-24 04:03:38 <gwillen> this seems like a pretty useful warning to have.
 196 2014-07-24 04:03:46 <gwillen> I've definitely seen people get bit by that.
 197 2014-07-24 04:04:01 <gmaxwell> yea, recipent might have given you a one use, or you already made this transaction.
 198 2014-07-24 04:04:13 <gwillen> ahhh. Yeah the latter is likely if the amounts match, in particular.
 199 2014-07-24 04:04:48 <gmaxwell> the notice should list the datetime txid:vout and amount for all of the prior ones, too— perhaps.
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 214 2014-07-24 04:34:55 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: poke
 215 2014-07-24 04:35:34 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: what's up?
 216 2014-07-24 04:35:55 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: some user is saying Armory is doing silly things like claiming addresses have balances :<
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 218 2014-07-24 04:36:53 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: I don't know what you mean
 219 2014-07-24 04:38:55 <PRab> etotheipi_: There is a big debate about address reuse going on. On the Wallet Properties screen, it has a balance column broken down by address. People claim that the balance encourages address reuse.
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 226 2014-07-24 04:46:31 <etotheipi_> PRab: it's nothing new, and Armory has done that for forever... yes I agree that address reuse should be minimized, but I'm not sure it's worth removing a feature that helps you understand what's going on in your wallet
 227 2014-07-24 04:46:40 dims has joined
 228 2014-07-24 04:47:01 <etotheipi_> there are legitimate reason to know which private keys in your wallet protect money
 229 2014-07-24 04:49:21 <etotheipi_> for apps that try to make it possible for grandma to use Bitcoin, removing that abstraction may make sense ... for a power tool like Armory mostly used by advanced/power users, that is useful
 230 2014-07-24 04:49:26 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: because all keys in an armory wallet are generated via the homomorpic derrivation, they all protect money if any do.
 231 2014-07-24 04:49:51 <gmaxwell> (I suppose imported keys are an exception there)
 232 2014-07-24 04:50:55 <etotheipi_> great... but the marginal improvement that users *might* reuse addresses less if I remove a feature that many other people consider useful, is not compelling
 233 2014-07-24 04:51:09 <gmaxwell> (I'm not arguing that it shouldn't have the ability to show sums of utxo per address, but I think the argument given for it there was concerning.)
 234 2014-07-24 04:51:28 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 235 2014-07-24 04:51:39 <gmaxwell> (e.g. if people really are treating the private keys of addresses with 0 by them with less care then thats bad)
 236 2014-07-24 04:52:14 <etotheipi_> btw, as painful as it is... one of our large clients, working with auditors and compliance officers... have decided that everything is 100% address based
 237 2014-07-24 04:52:29 <etotheipi_> they hate the fact that Armory does everything by wallets
 238 2014-07-24 04:52:40 <etotheipi_> because they have an *obligation* to control every transaction
 239 2014-07-24 04:52:44 <etotheipi_> and report per-address transactions
 240 2014-07-24 04:52:55 <etotheipi_> so they can match up buys and sells for tax reporting, etc
 241 2014-07-24 04:53:17 <etotheipi_> I told them that that makes Bitcoin basically unusable
 242 2014-07-24 04:53:34 <etotheipi_> and they kind of agreed... but said that's how they are currently bound
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 246 2014-07-24 04:55:16 <etotheipi_> they've been requesting custom export features to match their reporting requirements (basically per-address histories and balances)
 247 2014-07-24 04:55:36 <etotheipi_> (correlated with historical prices)
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 253 2014-07-24 05:01:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: fyi that was never rejected, it's still open https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3266
 254 2014-07-24 05:01:16 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: that smells like someone who doesn't understand bitcoin explained it to their officers
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 256 2014-07-24 05:01:43 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: which can be dangerous for others :/
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 258 2014-07-24 05:02:19 <gmaxwell> tracking _transactions_ and doing the historical price stuff sounds reasonable.
 259 2014-07-24 05:02:20 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I thought it's a bit sneaky but also a good idea, there was another guy that completely crazy
 260 2014-07-24 05:02:26 <wumpus> +went
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 263 2014-07-24 05:03:24 <gmaxwell> since then I've seen more instances of people making errors that would be potentially helped by this: e.g. failing to copy and sending to the last address you sent to
 264 2014-07-24 05:03:44 <gmaxwell> obviously in the long run the manual address handling should become less common.
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 266 2014-07-24 05:04:45 <etotheipi_> yeah, and unfortunately for them, coin-control and custom change behavior is required for every transaction
 267 2014-07-24 05:05:37 <Luke-Jr> someone should set up a certification process for wallet sw that includes things like "doesn't confuse users with 'address balance' nonsense" <.<
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 269 2014-07-24 05:06:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: at the time there was no way to store data per-output, since then I've added the *DestData stuff to wallet so a 'when was the last send, and what amount was used' can be easily added
 270 2014-07-24 05:06:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I don't think, e.g. coin-control is bad, it just shouldn't be a primary user interface. Do you disagree?
 271 2014-07-24 05:06:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: coin control isn't bad. but displaying an entirely meaningless number as an "address balance" certainly is.
 272 2014-07-24 05:06:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: is there no way to easily tell if we've ever sent to an address before?
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 274 2014-07-24 05:06:58 <wumpus> coin control is great, especially as an educational interface
 275 2014-07-24 05:07:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, so sometimes the kind of complaint you had with armory could be resolved by adding more functionality vs removing some.
 276 2014-07-24 05:07:15 * Luke-Jr notes he rebased coin control for Core for a while :p
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 278 2014-07-24 05:07:22 <etotheipi_> I disagree:  there is a tangible meaning to the "balance" of an address, even if we'd prefer users not to inspect their wallet to that level
 279 2014-07-24 05:07:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: apart from scanning all transactions? no
 280 2014-07-24 05:07:29 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: there isn't, though.
 281 2014-07-24 05:07:40 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: the spending of the TXO is not related to the address in any way
 282 2014-07-24 05:07:46 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: we don't keep a per-output index, it would be kind of a silly thing
 283 2014-07-24 05:08:01 <gmaxwell> Well it has a well defined meaning, it's just not one which has much significance to the system itself— and this is often a point of confusion.
 284 2014-07-24 05:08:03 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I mean just for the wallet
 285 2014-07-24 05:08:04 <etotheipi_> you may disagree with the way people use the feature, but it's still meaningful in a literal sense
 286 2014-07-24 05:08:19 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no, we don't have one just for the wallet either
 287 2014-07-24 05:08:46 <sipa> we already iterate through all wallet transactions for pretty much everything...
 288 2014-07-24 05:08:54 <gmaxwell> I was about to say.
 289 2014-07-24 05:08:59 <wumpus> sigh, okay
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 291 2014-07-24 05:09:27 <sipa> (not saying we should therefore necessarily just continue that practice...)
 292 2014-07-24 05:09:32 <wumpus> I still think storing data per destination makes more sense, but heh
 293 2014-07-24 05:09:42 <sipa> yeah
 294 2014-07-24 05:09:43 <gmaxwell> As an ontopic aside, someone in #bitcoin today was complaining that their bitcoind was suddenly using 100% cpu. Their wallet was also 30MBytes. Some people in the channel were making the (AFAICT) weakly informed speculation that their cpu use might have been due to their wallet size.
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 296 2014-07-24 05:09:59 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: please tell me, how is it meaningful to display.. the sum of bitcoins received using a given address, minus bitcoins spent in completely unrelated transactions?
 297 2014-07-24 05:10:22 chax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 298 2014-07-24 05:10:25 <sipa> with coin-control, those transactions are not necessarily completely unrelated
 299 2014-07-24 05:10:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's not x-y, its the sum of unspent utxo that are spendable by the cooresponding private key.
 300 2014-07-24 05:10:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: wumpus: maybe we ought to add wallet indexes to avoid the iteration in common cases?
 301 2014-07-24 05:10:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: pull requests welcome
 302 2014-07-24 05:10:45 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I just gave asolution in my first messgae about it to gmaxwell
 303 2014-07-24 05:10:45 <Luke-Jr> heh
 304 2014-07-24 05:11:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: <wumpus> gmaxwell: at the time there was no way to store data per-output, since then I've added the *DestData stuff to wallet so a 'when was the last send, and what amount was used' can be easily added
 305 2014-07-24 05:11:04 Aido has joined
 306 2014-07-24 05:11:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you're the only one daring enough to modify wallet code thought! *ducks*
 307 2014-07-24 05:11:43 <Luke-Jr> though*
 308 2014-07-24 05:12:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'd like to focus more on core stuff, and on getting rid of the wallet than extending it further...
 309 2014-07-24 05:12:21 <wumpus> sipa: me too
 310 2014-07-24 05:12:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: though I suppose if you want to be pedantic (and since you are luke, you do) all the the private keys for a single chain are damn near equivalent— so maybe my argument above falls down.
 311 2014-07-24 05:12:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: hah, *another* reason why the wallet and node should be separate
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 313 2014-07-24 05:12:45 <wumpus> gmaxwell: at least then you can see what uses the CPU! :p
 314 2014-07-24 05:13:10 <gmaxwell> well you don't have to convince me that they should be seperate processes.
 315 2014-07-24 05:13:45 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I know, but that seems the only sane solution to that, apart from informing people that a full node can use lots of CPU during initial sync
 316 2014-07-24 05:15:07 <gmaxwell> "attach gdb"
 317 2014-07-24 05:15:10 <gmaxwell> :P
 318 2014-07-24 05:15:16 <wumpus> hehe
 319 2014-07-24 05:15:16 Sauvin has joined
 320 2014-07-24 05:15:25 <wumpus> try that as non-root on a modern system :(
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 325 2014-07-24 05:15:53 <gmaxwell> hm? are systems breaking gdb -p now?! works fine on fedora.
 326 2014-07-24 05:16:01 <wumpus> ubuntu blocks attaching to other processes by default
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 328 2014-07-24 05:16:13 <wumpus> I know why, but it can be annoying, and needs a kernel setting to change
 329 2014-07-24 05:16:13 <Luke-Jr> really?
 330 2014-07-24 05:16:18 <gmaxwell> I .. can see some advantages, but .. ouch.
 331 2014-07-24 05:16:20 <Luke-Jr> weird
 332 2014-07-24 05:16:34 <Luke-Jr> I knew Mac required root to run gdb (at all), but I didn't know Ubuntu was doing it too
 333 2014-07-24 05:16:39 dgenr8 has joined
 334 2014-07-24 05:16:48 <sipa> wumpus: i must have changed that setting a long time ago then, because it just works here
 335 2014-07-24 05:17:04 GM0127 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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 337 2014-07-24 05:17:21 <gmaxwell> the annoying thing about a lot of this stuff is that it habituates users to running things with root permissions...
 338 2014-07-24 05:17:34 <wumpus> I wonder what new vulnerabilities they introduce by having to run gdb as root, I'm sure it has a few holes too, there used to be one in the DWARF evaluation a long time back for example
 339 2014-07-24 05:17:42 <poutine> you don't have to run gdb as root
 340 2014-07-24 05:17:47 <poutine> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9132826/stop-developer-tools-access-needs-to-take-control-of-another-process-for-debugg
 341 2014-07-24 05:17:57 <gmaxwell> would be better if they just got a popup: "Is it okay to attach a debugger to <X>? If unsure, say no."
 342 2014-07-24 05:18:55 <gmaxwell> (and then we find out apple has patented asking…)
 343 2014-07-24 05:19:28 <wumpus> sipa: you probably change /proc/sys/kernel/yama/ptrace_scope then
 344 2014-07-24 05:19:31 <Luke-Jr> wtf https://blockchain.info/en/address/3J98t1WpEZ73CNmQviecrnyiWrnqRhWNLy
 345 2014-07-24 05:19:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, gdb is not something I'd normally want to run as root.
 346 2014-07-24 05:19:55 <Luke-Jr> is that right?
 347 2014-07-24 05:20:12 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, you didn't see the #bitcoin-wizards discussion the other day? bc.i has been totally busted wrt that for a long time.
 348 2014-07-24 05:20:13 <Luke-Jr> no, it isn't..
 349 2014-07-24 05:20:19 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it would be possible to run a gdb *host* as root and connect to it as if it is remote, but thinking about it that would be even worse as it has no authentication :-)
 350 2014-07-24 05:20:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ah, no
 351 2014-07-24 05:20:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: is it that address specifically?
 352 2014-07-24 05:20:44 <wumpus> gmaxwell: so you'd effectively have a process that allows hijacking any other, hehe
 353 2014-07-24 05:20:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: basically it was previously treating <p2sh:hash160_x> identically to <p2pkh:hash160_x>
 354 2014-07-24 05:21:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: O.o
 355 2014-07-24 05:21:26 <Luke-Jr> oh, so that's 68 BTC sent to an unspendable p2pkh
 356 2014-07-24 05:21:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: wallets too, though it's fixed now.
 357 2014-07-24 05:21:33 <Luke-Jr> MtGox maybe >_<
 358 2014-07-24 05:21:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, that page isn't fixed ..
 359 2014-07-24 05:21:49 <gmaxwell> yea, its supposted to be fixed going forward.
 360 2014-07-24 05:21:58 <Luke-Jr> (that address is an anyone-can-spend null script P2SH fwiw)
 361 2014-07-24 05:22:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's the ripemd160('') but there are another 6 btc or so sent to other unspendable p2pkh.
 362 2014-07-24 05:22:22 dhill has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 363 2014-07-24 05:23:09 <gmaxwell> based on an assumption that if a p2pkh utxo exists whos hash160 was sent to as a p2sh the p2pkh is unspendable.
 364 2014-07-24 05:23:27 <gmaxwell> Apparently coinpunk 'supported' p2sh by just ignoring the version byte. :(
 365 2014-07-24 05:23:42 <wumpus> but yeah it could be some capability dealt out through systemd/policykit after asking, that'd be better, although the thing with popups is that clueless users will always click 'yes' on them 
 366 2014-07-24 05:23:45 <gmaxwell> and this combined well with users checking bc.i to see their 'balance'. :(
 367 2014-07-24 05:24:03 * Luke-Jr facepalms
 368 2014-07-24 05:24:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I dunno if anything in policykit does it now but there should be a "must type yes" dialog... though ultimately those same users will sudo programname or the like in any case.
 369 2014-07-24 05:26:48 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 370 2014-07-24 05:27:01 <wumpus> gmaxwell: or restrict 'dangerous' applications such as the webbrowser from ptracing, like webbrowsers, but not gdb if manually executed from a terminal
 371 2014-07-24 05:27:29 <wumpus> apparmor can probably do that
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 373 2014-07-24 05:27:57 <gmaxwell> I think the selinux policy in fedora already does that, in fact. (since fedora 17 or so)
 374 2014-07-24 05:30:49 <gmaxwell> it does, though it looks like the browser isn't confined with it, lots of processes are, however.
 375 2014-07-24 05:32:19 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 376 2014-07-24 05:32:57 <wumpus> application isolation is one thing that's done better on android
 377 2014-07-24 05:33:19 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, bleh but the permissions system is useless
 378 2014-07-24 05:33:31 <wumpus> and with that it's still possible to debug (through only from the host, not from the device itself)
 379 2014-07-24 05:34:32 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: well it suffers from permission inflation as you have to agree with all permissions when you download the application or upgrade it, if not you may not use it, it should be more granular and possible to deny/allow specific permissions later
 380 2014-07-24 05:35:06 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, they should provide for all the api calls that have permissions to return false data
 381 2014-07-24 05:35:17 <phantomcircuit> would allow for 100% compatibility
 382 2014-07-24 05:35:32 lclc has joined
 383 2014-07-24 05:37:12 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: yes
 384 2014-07-24 05:37:13 <gmaxwell> yea, false data would also prevent things from asking for more permissions than they really need and holding you hostage.
 385 2014-07-24 05:37:48 Namworld has quit ()
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 387 2014-07-24 05:39:45 <wumpus> but anyhow, on an OS with mostly open source software like ubuntu that's not as much of a problem... not many open source authors would hold you hostage to get more permissions to allow advertising companies to spy on you
 388 2014-07-24 05:39:57 <wumpus> and if so it'd just be removed :P
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 392 2014-07-24 05:41:29 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, something something amazon search bar
 393 2014-07-24 05:41:48 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4581 0_o
 394 2014-07-24 05:41:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, nom nom chips running with all cores at full blast
 395 2014-07-24 05:42:02 <phantomcircuit> a bit toasty though
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 397 2014-07-24 05:42:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, wait
 398 2014-07-24 05:42:43 <phantomcircuit> that is
 399 2014-07-24 05:42:44 <phantomcircuit> wat
 400 2014-07-24 05:42:50 <wumpus> rebroad does it again
 401 2014-07-24 05:43:20 <wumpus> 'a lot of CPU is wasted dealing with superfluous getblocks' ok man, show me the profiling results
 402 2014-07-24 05:43:46 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 403 2014-07-24 05:43:47 <gmaxwell> now we get to spend N hours trying to figure out if he's found an actual bug, e.g. making getblock requests we don't really need to make, which he's fixing in the worst possible way— ignoring requests from peers. :P
 404 2014-07-24 05:44:27 <phantomcircuit> there's basically no way to know...
 405 2014-07-24 05:44:41 <wumpus> gmaxwell: right
 406 2014-07-24 05:45:15 benten has joined
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 408 2014-07-24 05:47:24 dims has joined
 409 2014-07-24 05:47:50 <wumpus> so how does the linux kernel developer team handle cases like this?
 410 2014-07-24 05:48:18 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, lol rudely
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 420 2014-07-24 06:10:41 * wumpus is very close to banning rebroad from the github project
 421 2014-07-24 06:11:57 <Luke-Jr> maybe warn him then
 422 2014-07-24 06:12:29 <wumpus> yes
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 425 2014-07-24 06:19:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, nom nom voltage trim
 426 2014-07-24 06:19:03 <phantomcircuit> NOM
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 429 2014-07-24 06:28:55 ttll has joined
 430 2014-07-24 06:29:41 <Diablo-D3> [01:38:57] <gmaxwell> now we get to spend N hours trying to figure out if he's found an actual bug, e.g. making getblock requests we don't really need to make, which he's fixing in the worst possible way— ignoring requests from peers. :P
 431 2014-07-24 06:29:49 <Diablo-D3> thats how I'd debug it
 432 2014-07-24 06:29:56 <Diablo-D3> no-op the handler, see if cpu time goes down
 433 2014-07-24 06:32:44 ThomasV has joined
 434 2014-07-24 06:33:59 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, just count identical requests...
 435 2014-07-24 06:34:14 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: not even worth it
 436 2014-07-24 06:34:19 <Diablo-D3> lets find out if its even an issue to begin with
 437 2014-07-24 06:34:27 <Diablo-D3> if cpu usage doesnt go down in any reasonable amount
 438 2014-07-24 06:34:30 <Diablo-D3> its not an issue
 439 2014-07-24 06:34:34 <phantomcircuit> im thinking no
 440 2014-07-24 06:34:43 <phantomcircuit> since i've profiled like
 441 2014-07-24 06:34:45 <phantomcircuit> all the things
 442 2014-07-24 06:34:59 <phantomcircuit> maybe it matters for an otherwise entirely idle node
 443 2014-07-24 06:35:04 <phantomcircuit> but srsly who cares
 444 2014-07-24 06:35:36 dhill has joined
 445 2014-07-24 06:35:54 <wumpus> better to look for more serious DoSes
 446 2014-07-24 06:36:58 Gyps has joined
 447 2014-07-24 06:37:03 elichai2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 448 2014-07-24 06:37:05 <Diablo-D3> I mean, maybe if we had bitcoind running on an arm
 449 2014-07-24 06:37:09 <Diablo-D3> and not even a new arm
 450 2014-07-24 06:37:12 <Diablo-D3> it'd metter
 451 2014-07-24 06:37:16 <wumpus> I have it running on ARM - works fine
 452 2014-07-24 06:37:22 elichai2 has joined
 453 2014-07-24 06:37:26 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: well
 454 2014-07-24 06:37:27 <Diablo-D3> there
 455 2014-07-24 06:37:27 <Belxjander> wumpus: you have an ARM based miner?
 456 2014-07-24 06:37:33 <wumpus> Belxjander: no, a node.
 457 2014-07-24 06:37:34 <Diablo-D3> problem solved
 458 2014-07-24 06:37:37 <Belxjander> wumpus: or an ARM based BitCoinD node?
 459 2014-07-24 06:37:45 <Diablo-D3> maybe we need like
 460 2014-07-24 06:37:45 <Belxjander> wumpus: RPi for that?
 461 2014-07-24 06:37:48 <Diablo-D3> a wrt54g
 462 2014-07-24 06:37:58 <Diablo-D3> some balls slow mips running at 2xx mph
 463 2014-07-24 06:38:00 <Diablo-D3> er mhz
 464 2014-07-24 06:38:04 <Diablo-D3> heh mph
 465 2014-07-24 06:38:22 <Diablo-D3> Ive never made that typo and I hope I make it more often
 466 2014-07-24 06:38:30 <wumpus> Belxjander: a cubox and cubox-i
 467 2014-07-24 06:38:39 elichai2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 468 2014-07-24 06:38:55 <Belxjander> I have a PowerPC running at 667MHz on my desk
 469 2014-07-24 06:39:02 <Diablo-D3> Belxjander: too powerful
 470 2014-07-24 06:39:24 <Diablo-D3> thats like a 1.2ghz p3
 471 2014-07-24 06:39:25 <wumpus> I have them for video driver related development, but the boxes are great for running nodes, though ofc they need an external storage for the block chain (I simply use large USB sticks)
 472 2014-07-24 06:39:39 <Diablo-D3> which is like as fast as a ~800mhz new arm
 473 2014-07-24 06:40:02 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: man, when tiny arm dev boards start shipping with usb3
 474 2014-07-24 06:40:04 <Diablo-D3> <3
 475 2014-07-24 06:40:23 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, arm is le, which is easy
 476 2014-07-24 06:40:26 <phantomcircuit> try with mips
 477 2014-07-24 06:40:28 <phantomcircuit> then cry
 478 2014-07-24 06:40:34 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: notice where I said
 479 2014-07-24 06:40:36 <Diablo-D3> 200mhz mips
 480 2014-07-24 06:40:57 <Belxjander> so the bitcoind node codebase has had endianness issues clarified?
 481 2014-07-24 06:41:14 <wumpus> Belxjander: no.
 482 2014-07-24 06:41:15 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, modern arm is little endian
 483 2014-07-24 06:41:18 <phantomcircuit> no correction needed
 484 2014-07-24 06:41:28 <phantomcircuit> do NOT RUN BITCOIND ON BIG ENDIAN SYSTEMS
 485 2014-07-24 06:41:28 <wumpus> modern MIPS is little-endian too
 486 2014-07-24 06:41:29 <Diablo-D3> yeah I think theres still long standing big endian issues
 487 2014-07-24 06:41:45 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: what? really? :/
 488 2014-07-24 06:41:45 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, depends on how you define modern
 489 2014-07-24 06:41:54 <Luke-Jr> MIPS is certainly LE-capable, but AFAIK everything runs it in BE mode
 490 2014-07-24 06:41:56 <phantomcircuit> commonly available and cheap are all big endian
 491 2014-07-24 06:42:12 <Diablo-D3> mips-le is basically dead
 492 2014-07-24 06:42:18 <Diablo-D3> no major linux distro supports it anymore
 493 2014-07-24 06:42:21 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, if you try to switch the ones that are available to LE all the drivers crash like instantly
 494 2014-07-24 06:42:24 <Diablo-D3> not enough mips-le machines ever shipped
 495 2014-07-24 06:42:27 elichai2 has joined
 496 2014-07-24 06:42:38 <phantomcircuit> it's kind of hilarious actually
 497 2014-07-24 06:42:40 <Diablo-D3> and a lot of code that has mips paths just automatically assumes its be
 498 2014-07-24 06:43:01 * Luke-Jr needs a MIPS system with PCI-e so he can test PCI-e code on BE <.<
 499 2014-07-24 06:43:11 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: do not want
 500 2014-07-24 06:43:12 <wumpus> I'm pretty sure my gcw zero (base on Ingenic JZ4770  MIPS processor) is little endian
 501 2014-07-24 06:43:24 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: ?
 502 2014-07-24 06:43:26 CoinHeavy has quit (Quit: CoinHeavy)
 503 2014-07-24 06:43:39 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: pci-e has a higher clock than some mips systems
 504 2014-07-24 06:43:44 <Belxjander> wumpus: it may bootstrap from LE to BE as part of the firmware setup
 505 2014-07-24 06:43:58 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: personally, I'd prefer replacing my desktop machine with MIPS if I could get one powerful enough :P
 506 2014-07-24 06:44:09 <wumpus> I'm pretty sure all Ingenic XBurst processors only support LE
 507 2014-07-24 06:44:20 <wumpus> BE is dead, face it
 508 2014-07-24 06:44:29 <Luke-Jr> nooooooooo
 509 2014-07-24 06:44:50 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: they used to make huge motherfucker mips machines
 510 2014-07-24 06:44:58 <Diablo-D3> sadly, my nexus 5 is more powerful
 511 2014-07-24 06:44:59 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: LM32 is BE :p
 512 2014-07-24 06:45:12 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: be isnt dead if you're on mips
 513 2014-07-24 06:45:14 <Belxjander> wumpus: well PPC starts with BE as the default bootstrap option with LE as a runtime switch option
 514 2014-07-24 06:45:22 <Diablo-D3> Belxjander: not quite
 515 2014-07-24 06:45:29 <Luke-Jr> PPC is more dead than MIPS..
 516 2014-07-24 06:45:35 <Diablo-D3> ppc supporting hardware requires le support
 517 2014-07-24 06:45:42 <Diablo-D3> you'll never find this in common ppc machines
 518 2014-07-24 06:45:50 <Diablo-D3> like, a mac will never be le.
 519 2014-07-24 06:45:57 <Belxjander> Diablo-D3: and what do you define as "common" for a ppc system?
 520 2014-07-24 06:46:00 <Diablo-D3> macs.
 521 2014-07-24 06:46:05 <Diablo-D3> game consoles.
 522 2014-07-24 06:46:06 <Diablo-D3> cars.
 523 2014-07-24 06:46:08 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: I think PPC can do both BE and LE in the same OS
 524 2014-07-24 06:46:12 <Diablo-D3> tvs, bluray players, other set top boxes.
 525 2014-07-24 06:46:16 <Luke-Jr> eg, kernel BE but programX LE
 526 2014-07-24 06:46:18 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: yes it does
 527 2014-07-24 06:46:19 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: in theory, but its never been tried.
 528 2014-07-24 06:46:37 <Diablo-D3> well, not successfully used in real shipping code tried
 529 2014-07-24 06:46:40 <Belxjander> Diablo-D3: I'm actively working on something akin to that at the moment
 530 2014-07-24 06:46:50 <wumpus> yes I was talking about the mips processors that are sometimes used in cheaper tablets and phones, not the old dinosaur MIPS
 531 2014-07-24 06:46:54 <Belxjander> trying to get some LE based processing done within a BE host
 532 2014-07-24 06:46:59 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: every MIPS I've seen is BE
 533 2014-07-24 06:47:01 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: those mipses suck too
 534 2014-07-24 06:47:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: like all routers..
 535 2014-07-24 06:47:38 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: I know, I developed for one, especially memory bandwidth is horrible
 536 2014-07-24 06:47:55 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: not all routers...Ive run across some routers which were a series of models and they didn't all use the same processor family
 537 2014-07-24 06:48:02 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: like, they could take a mips64, scale it up to huge-scale
 538 2014-07-24 06:48:04 <Diablo-D3> and ship it
 539 2014-07-24 06:48:07 <Diablo-D3> and they never do
 540 2014-07-24 06:48:13 dims has joined
 541 2014-07-24 06:48:18 <Diablo-D3> mips on 28nm or smaller, drool
 542 2014-07-24 06:48:55 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: but they're cheap, so cheap, so vendors love them
 543 2014-07-24 06:49:08 <Diablo-D3> yes, but arms are cheap too
 544 2014-07-24 06:49:21 <wumpus> Diablo-D3: combined with el cheapo slow ram, and then they still expect 3D performance :P
 545 2014-07-24 06:49:31 <Diablo-D3> yeah thats just idiotic
 546 2014-07-24 06:49:52 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ps 1 hash/clock/core
 547 2014-07-24 06:49:53 <phantomcircuit> nom
 548 2014-07-24 06:50:06 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: Avalon2/3 use both MIPS and LM32 ;p
 549 2014-07-24 06:50:24 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: seriously like what happened to mips64.
 550 2014-07-24 06:51:18 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, they wouldn't be cheap at 28nm
 551 2014-07-24 06:51:23 <phantomcircuit> they're be like $50/chip
 552 2014-07-24 06:51:39 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: Im chasing after shit like high end cell phones here
 553 2014-07-24 06:51:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok :p and those are still BE?
 554 2014-07-24 06:51:44 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: if they can replace my Intel processor, I'll do it
 555 2014-07-24 06:51:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: LM32 is *only* BE. pretty sure the MIPS runs in BE too
 556 2014-07-24 06:52:05 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: like, a sufficiently large mips or arm could actually make arm and intel shit their pants
 557 2014-07-24 06:52:29 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 558 2014-07-24 06:52:57 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, a little tiny 28nm chip is like $25 at cost
 559 2014-07-24 06:53:02 <phantomcircuit> double the price for NRE
 560 2014-07-24 06:53:04 dims has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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 562 2014-07-24 06:53:36 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, intel for example is currently waging a materials war
 563 2014-07-24 06:53:47 <Diablo-D3> I mean like, image an 8 core aarch64 with 2x ALUs and huge L2 and L3 caches
 564 2014-07-24 06:53:49 <phantomcircuit> all their chips are pushing the limits of the process nodes
 565 2014-07-24 06:54:05 <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, shit would be super expensive actually
 566 2014-07-24 06:54:15 <phantomcircuit> unless you ordered like
 567 2014-07-24 06:54:18 <phantomcircuit> TONS of them
 568 2014-07-24 06:54:20 <Diablo-D3> it'd be cheaper than an i7-477x.
 569 2014-07-24 06:54:23 <Diablo-D3> and smaller.
 570 2014-07-24 06:54:25 <Diablo-D3> and lower power.
 571 2014-07-24 06:54:31 <phantomcircuit> maybe
 572 2014-07-24 06:54:32 <phantomcircuit> maybe not
 573 2014-07-24 06:54:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: me too. I'd love to go all-ARM. But I need a fast machine for compiling, so that's probably still some time away
 574 2014-07-24 06:55:02 <Diablo-D3> and I could deploy billions of them in a datacenter <3
 575 2014-07-24 06:55:11 <phantomcircuit> lol
 576 2014-07-24 06:55:18 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I don't like ARM. It's the most proprietary architecture.
 577 2014-07-24 06:56:20 <wumpus> although using distributed make and a cluster of boxes would be fun too, compile each source file on a different machine :-)
 578 2014-07-24 06:56:38 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, suggestion: dont do dat
 579 2014-07-24 06:57:11 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: distcc is ugly code
 580 2014-07-24 06:57:11 <phantomcircuit> unless the systems are 100% identical to the system you're building for it will break
 581 2014-07-24 06:57:14 edulix has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 582 2014-07-24 06:57:20 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: I know, too much i/o overhead, they had something like that at my last employer (lots of build servers)
 583 2014-07-24 06:57:22 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: nah, you just preprocess on the main one
 584 2014-07-24 06:57:30 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: everything was always hanging 
 585 2014-07-24 06:57:35 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, still doesn't work right with inline asm
 586 2014-07-24 06:57:43 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: why not?
 587 2014-07-24 06:57:46 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: cross-compilers are easy
 588 2014-07-24 06:58:06 <phantomcircuit> lol sure
 589 2014-07-24 06:58:13 <phantomcircuit> the cross compiler itself is easy
 590 2014-07-24 06:58:18 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: this is something Gentoo at least had working years ago
 591 2014-07-24 06:58:26 <phantomcircuit> now get all the library versions to match correctly with all the ABIs matching
 592 2014-07-24 06:58:28 <Luke-Jr> the code sucks, but it does work
 593 2014-07-24 06:58:28 <wumpus> although what we did there was build for some obscure PPC architecture on another obscure PPC architecture, but it worked!
 594 2014-07-24 06:58:39 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: linking isn't distributed, just compiling
 595 2014-07-24 06:58:46 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: well all the libraries were just in some 'sysroot' path, no problem
 596 2014-07-24 06:59:05 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, keeping those correct is difficult in itself
 597 2014-07-24 06:59:14 edulix has joined
 598 2014-07-24 06:59:23 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, yeah but it's still going to need specific symbols
 599 2014-07-24 06:59:31 <phantomcircuit> which often change between lib versions
 600 2014-07-24 06:59:46 <phantomcircuit> probably 90% of my gentoo build failures were distcc related
 601 2014-07-24 06:59:50 <Luke-Jr> …
 602 2014-07-24 06:59:55 <Luke-Jr> it always just worked for me
 603 2014-07-24 07:00:17 <Luke-Jr> I even had my N810 using distcc to get my desktop PC cross-compiling for it
 604 2014-07-24 07:00:19 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, shrug
 605 2014-07-24 07:00:23 <Luke-Jr> (yes, my N810 runs Gentoo.)
 606 2014-07-24 07:00:37 <phantomcircuit> neat
 607 2014-07-24 07:00:43 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 608 2014-07-24 07:00:46 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, my bitcoin miner runs busybox
 609 2014-07-24 07:00:48 <phantomcircuit> hehe
 610 2014-07-24 07:01:03 <wumpus> every small linux embedded device runs busybox
 611 2014-07-24 07:01:06 <Luke-Jr> otoh, *linking* qtwebkit on 128 MB RAM is.. not fun
 612 2014-07-24 07:01:23 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, you'd be surprised
 613 2014-07-24 07:01:25 <Luke-Jr> using small embedded devices for mining is nasty :/
 614 2014-07-24 07:01:32 <phantomcircuit> most miners run a FULL debian environment
 615 2014-07-24 07:01:49 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, which is why i wrote my own client
 616 2014-07-24 07:01:56 <phantomcircuit> 10usec max per main loop
 617 2014-07-24 07:01:58 <phantomcircuit> guaranteed
 618 2014-07-24 07:02:00 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: I'm trying to work out essentials for a minimal stripped down Linux install here
 619 2014-07-24 07:02:13 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: no matter what you do, you won't be able to produce headers fast enough for 1 MB blocks with 300 kB generation txns
 620 2014-07-24 07:02:18 <wumpus> although 'embedded' can also mean high-performance servers in industrial machines, but for consumer hardware it's true
 621 2014-07-24 07:02:39 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i can go from stratum job to work in <6usec
 622 2014-07-24 07:02:50 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not for full blocks as I just described.
 623 2014-07-24 07:03:02 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, it's ~2usec/hash
 624 2014-07-24 07:03:09 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not for 300 kB hash
 625 2014-07-24 07:03:20 <phantomcircuit> oh
 626 2014-07-24 07:03:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah
 627 2014-07-24 07:03:23 <phantomcircuit> i dont do that
 628 2014-07-24 07:03:34 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
 629 2014-07-24 07:03:57 <phantomcircuit> indeed a coinbase that long will trigger an abort()
 630 2014-07-24 07:04:22 <phantomcircuit> although actually i can think of at least one way to support such a long coinbase tx
 631 2014-07-24 07:04:30 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ps midstate copy
 632 2014-07-24 07:04:41 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: if the extranonce is near the end, yes
 633 2014-07-24 07:04:57 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, so put it near the end and abort if its not
 634 2014-07-24 07:05:01 <Luke-Jr> actually, Avalon2 has a stupid low limit of 6 kB gen txn :/
 635 2014-07-24 07:05:02 <phantomcircuit> shrug
 636 2014-07-24 07:05:20 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, we have two miners being coded in parallel
 637 2014-07-24 07:05:27 <phantomcircuit> one which is optimal for our pool software
 638 2014-07-24 07:05:35 <phantomcircuit> and one for cgminer which is well
 639 2014-07-24 07:05:37 <phantomcircuit> you know
 640 2014-07-24 07:05:41 <Luke-Jr> a bad idea?
 641 2014-07-24 07:05:47 <phantomcircuit> maybe that
 642 2014-07-24 07:05:54 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: bfgminer --benchmark --stratum-port 3333
 643 2014-07-24 07:06:04 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, que
 644 2014-07-24 07:06:05 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: line 5018 defines coinbase_sz
 645 2014-07-24 07:06:12 <phantomcircuit> oh
 646 2014-07-24 07:06:19 <Luke-Jr> easy way to test stuff ;)
 647 2014-07-24 07:06:21 <phantomcircuit> coinbase for our pool is tiny
 648 2014-07-24 07:06:28 <phantomcircuit> it's hard coded to a single output
 649 2014-07-24 07:06:34 <phantomcircuit> which you know :P
 650 2014-07-24 07:07:18 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: you should really lart them and make them upgrade to BFGMiner ;)
 651 2014-07-24 07:07:38 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, the real time requirements are too tight
 652 2014-07-24 07:07:44 <Belxjander> lart?
 653 2014-07-24 07:07:55 <phantomcircuit> thermal shutdown is like 100 usec or your're pushing it
 654 2014-07-24 07:08:13 <phantomcircuit> probably explains why 21e6 fried all their chips
 655 2014-07-24 07:08:14 <phantomcircuit> twice
 656 2014-07-24 07:08:16 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I don't follow. cgminer isn't going to do that any better than BFGMiner O.o
 657 2014-07-24 07:08:30 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, no but my custom mini miner will
 658 2014-07-24 07:08:44 <phantomcircuit> temp shutdown takes ~1usec
 659 2014-07-24 07:08:50 <phantomcircuit> it's a single spi write
 660 2014-07-24 07:09:00 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: why couldn't you do that in BFGMiner? O.o
 661 2014-07-24 07:09:11 <phantomcircuit> polling interval
 662 2014-07-24 07:09:15 <Luke-Jr> ?
 663 2014-07-24 07:09:23 <Luke-Jr> you have your own thread to run as you like
 664 2014-07-24 07:09:25 <phantomcircuit> the main networking thread provides a guaranteed response time of like 500ns
 665 2014-07-24 07:09:37 <phantomcircuit> eh too complicated...
 666 2014-07-24 07:09:40 <Luke-Jr> lol
 667 2014-07-24 07:09:51 <phantomcircuit> no srsly
 668 2014-07-24 07:09:58 <phantomcircuit> consider the locking constraints
 669 2014-07-24 07:10:12 <phantomcircuit> it takes like 20ms to acquire a thread lock when there is extreme contention
 670 2014-07-24 07:10:23 <phantomcircuit> by that time you're screwed
 671 2014-07-24 07:10:50 <phantomcircuit> all of this really better suits a true realtime kernel
 672 2014-07-24 07:10:51 <Luke-Jr> how is that any different from what you just described? O.o
 673 2014-07-24 07:11:03 <Luke-Jr> oh, you're actually putting it in the kernel?
 674 2014-07-24 07:11:13 <phantomcircuit> parts of it yeah
 675 2014-07-24 07:11:49 <phantomcircuit> tbh looking at the code others are using has been lol hilarious
 676 2014-07-24 07:11:56 <phantomcircuit> so many fundamental errors
 677 2014-07-24 07:12:28 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik will be pleased
 678 2014-07-24 07:12:29 Grouver has joined
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 680 2014-07-24 07:13:41 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, yeah we've been doing fpga revisions to fix issues that cause cpu time issues
 681 2014-07-24 07:13:56 <phantomcircuit> basically everything is correctly interrupt driven now
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 683 2014-07-24 07:14:25 <phantomcircuit> of course the biggest problem is coming up with a thermal limiting algorithm that works
 684 2014-07-24 07:14:31 <phantomcircuit> which is pretty complicated
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 708 2014-07-24 08:10:01 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: btw, I figured it was obvious, but just to be clear: laws/court orders come before dnsseed-policy, correct?
 709 2014-07-24 08:10:44 Dr-G has joined
 710 2014-07-24 08:10:51 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no, IMO you should stop hosting the DNS seed in that case
 711 2014-07-24 08:11:03 Alina-malina has joined
 712 2014-07-24 08:11:16 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: seemingly it's not possible to host one according to the requirements in your locale, then
 713 2014-07-24 08:11:48 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 714 2014-07-24 08:11:50 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: well, if they demand I turn over DNS query logs (which don't exist, FWIW), I would have to comply even if I shutdown the node at the same time
 715 2014-07-24 08:11:54 damethos has joined
 716 2014-07-24 08:12:06 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: sure - you may have to give off information once in that case
 717 2014-07-24 08:12:37 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: the rules are not 'respond with violence to defend your server' :P
 718 2014-07-24 08:12:47 <Luke-Jr> :D
 719 2014-07-24 08:13:06 TheSeven has joined
 720 2014-07-24 08:14:07 <wumpus> personal safety comes first, but anyhow, that's a good reason why having centralized DNS seeds is a flawed concept, it creates easy places to apply pressure
 721 2014-07-24 08:14:23 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: I would give them an empty file..and state that is the total content of any logging on the system by the original configuration
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 725 2014-07-24 08:18:43 <wumpus> anyhow; no list of guidelines wil protect against law enforcements or organized crime, but it may protect against advertising companies or privacy-violating research
 726 2014-07-24 08:20:28 TheSeven has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 727 2014-07-24 08:20:45 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I was contemplating a replacement.. HTTPseed. The server serves a quasi-static kitten picture, distributable via cdns/etc. The picture is a valid jpg but has signed seed data stuffed in the end. Nodes log the most recent seed responses. The signatures can prove if a seed is giving partition-inducing data, the fact that its a kitten picture means it can be embedded in random pages to provide cover traffic.
 728 2014-07-24 08:20:54 Alina-malina has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 729 2014-07-24 08:21:10 <gmaxwell> The thing I got stuck on was that it's very hard to make a http request that is indistinguishable from a real browser. :(
 730 2014-07-24 08:21:40 dipendra has joined
 731 2014-07-24 08:21:49 <wumpus> gmaxwell: wonderful idea :)
 732 2014-07-24 08:22:04 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 733 2014-07-24 08:22:41 <gmaxwell> I asked around the office and it was pointed out to me that future firefox useragents are predictable, so thats not so bad, but if the server responds with weird headers in any way it can easily distinguish a trivial http client and a real browser.
 734 2014-07-24 08:23:33 Application has joined
 735 2014-07-24 08:23:49 <wumpus> gmaxwell: it could interface to a real browser to do the request
 736 2014-07-24 08:23:52 llllllllll has joined
 737 2014-07-24 08:24:08 <wumpus> gmaxwell: although, requiring a browser to be present on every system running bitcoind is proabbly a bit overkill :p
 738 2014-07-24 08:24:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: wrt orders, the guidelines would have you minimizing keeping logs, obviously if ordered you comply but unless you can't, you should also take down the service.
 739 2014-07-24 08:24:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: (and insecure too, we'd get any holes in the browser for free)
 740 2014-07-24 08:24:45 <gmaxwell> wumpus: hm. well if not it could fall back (the what is my ip code does a trivial http request already).. insecure is ugly though.
 741 2014-07-24 08:26:14 CoalPowerGorilla has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 742 2014-07-24 08:26:50 <wumpus> but in general - yes, the solution would be to put the node data in a place where a lot of other data is too, to hide in the traffic
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 744 2014-07-24 08:27:17 <gmaxwell> yea, I thought about putting it in varrious pre-existing places, but they all have the quering party is identifyable problem.
 745 2014-07-24 08:27:23 gst has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 746 2014-07-24 08:27:55 <wumpus> I wonder if there is other software that would benefit from something like this as well, if it couuld be generalizable it wouldn't identify bitcoin anymore per-ce
 747 2014-07-24 08:27:56 pfallenop has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 748 2014-07-24 08:28:28 <gmaxwell> Even if we can't solve the privacy, changing may be useful simply because signed seed messages would remove some attacks.
 749 2014-07-24 08:28:32 <wumpus> can't we piggyback on bittorrent somehow? so many of that traffic on the internet
 750 2014-07-24 08:28:56 gst has joined
 751 2014-07-24 08:29:10 <gmaxwell> bt DHT introduction basically has the same problem we do, clients just hardcode a couple initial hosts... and are completely dependant on them being honest.
 752 2014-07-24 08:29:21 <gmaxwell> same for most other 'p2p' networks.
 753 2014-07-24 08:29:29 <wumpus> sure, but if those hosts are used for other things too, it wuldn't be too identifying
 754 2014-07-24 08:29:47 <gmaxwell> the other issue is needing non-trivial code to talk to things.
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 756 2014-07-24 08:30:03 <wumpus> right now we have hosts specific to bitcoin,  so nothing to hide between
 757 2014-07-24 08:30:05 <wumpus> right
 758 2014-07-24 08:30:25 <gmaxwell> I contemplated using the tor directories.
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 760 2014-07-24 08:31:07 <wumpus> bootstrap-from-tor would be nice too, at least as option
 761 2014-07-24 08:31:24 CoalPowerGorilla has joined
 762 2014-07-24 08:31:26 <gmaxwell> could probably code seed data into the exit descriptors and the directories can be fetched over 'plain https' but kinda ugly and easily censorable by the tor project.
 763 2014-07-24 08:31:38 <gmaxwell> yes, if you actually have tor running then we can do much better things.
 764 2014-07-24 08:32:09 <gmaxwell> We probably should come preloaded with some onionseeds. right now bootstrapping a onlynet=onion host basically doesn't work.
 765 2014-07-24 08:32:21 <wumpus> good idea
 766 2014-07-24 08:32:55 <gmaxwell> And thats alread authenticated and private, though the authenciation isn't recordable so it doesn't produce a transferable proof if a seed starts giving bad results. (though the strong privacy makes it harder for it to usefully attack without being detectable)
 767 2014-07-24 08:33:34 <gmaxwell> yea, I'll do the onionseeds part soon.
 768 2014-07-24 08:33:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: fwiw I redid the external ip patch, and its much smaller now, just need to setup a testbed to see if it works.
 769 2014-07-24 08:34:41 <wumpus> hm what would be a good unbiased way to get a list of hidden service node?
 770 2014-07-24 08:34:54 <wumpus> just looking through my nodes' addr.dat?
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 772 2014-07-24 08:35:33 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, if you receive threats related to dns seeds
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 774 2014-07-24 08:35:36 * Luke-Jr wonders if IPv6 anycast is accessible enough to just have all bitcoin nodes act as anycast DNS seeds
 775 2014-07-24 08:35:38 <phantomcircuit> send them my way
 776 2014-07-24 08:35:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: not at all.
 777 2014-07-24 08:35:53 <wumpus> gmaxwell: great, yes last time it stranded on some comments about moving around around, and lack of people interested in testing :/
 778 2014-07-24 08:35:58 <drizztbsd> Luke-Jr: not yet
 779 2014-07-24 08:36:08 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I doubt anyone will, there isn't any info to be gained they can't get at the ISP level
 780 2014-07-24 08:36:31 <Luke-Jr> it's not like DNS seeds are encrypted or anything
 781 2014-07-24 08:36:49 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, true... but it would be something useful to fight against
 782 2014-07-24 08:37:00 <phantomcircuit> especially since the intent is to obvious
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 792 2014-07-24 08:50:00 <stonecoldpat> from my understand, spv clients only receive blocks? (not just block headers, but the block itself)
 793 2014-07-24 08:50:29 <stonecoldpat> or is it just block header + transaction id
 794 2014-07-24 08:52:57 <Luke-Jr> just headers I think
 795 2014-07-24 08:53:17 <wumpus> just headers, and filtered blocks
 796 2014-07-24 08:53:20 <Luke-Jr> the "I think" is regarding whether they even need headers. I'd have to review bitcoin.pdf :p
 797 2014-07-24 08:53:58 <wumpus> they need headers to keep up to date with the best chain
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 799 2014-07-24 08:54:44 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I'd think they can use skiplists
 800 2014-07-24 08:54:56 <stonecoldpat> it has me a bit confused, if it downloads block header only, how does it know a transaction id was accepted ?
 801 2014-07-24 08:55:07 <stonecoldpat> itll have a merkle tree root, but thats just a hash
 802 2014-07-24 08:55:24 <wumpus> stonecoldpat: it sets a bloom filter and received filtered blocks with tranactions that apply to it
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 804 2014-07-24 08:55:28 <Luke-Jr> stonecoldpat: it gets the merkle links too
 805 2014-07-24 08:55:35 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yup
 806 2014-07-24 08:55:57 <wumpus> a filtered block also contains the merkle tree fragment needed to verify the transactions in it
 807 2014-07-24 08:56:18 <stonecoldpat> ah ok i understand then, so it gets just enough information to create the merkle tree
 808 2014-07-24 08:56:29 <wumpus> yes
 809 2014-07-24 08:57:46 <wumpus> ugh, the peers.dat of none of my nodes contains any IsTor addresses
 810 2014-07-24 08:58:29 <Luke-Jr> don't you only save addresses for networks you can reach?
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 812 2014-07-24 08:59:27 <wumpus> ... that may be the problem, though one of the peers.dat I checked is from a node that runs on tor (but not onlynet=onion)
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 815 2014-07-24 09:01:17 <wumpus> oh that one has 0 addresses in peers.dat at all, okay
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 817 2014-07-24 09:01:59 <Luke-Jr> lol
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 823 2014-07-24 09:06:57 <sipa> Luke-Jr: those skiplists are a very recent invention
 824 2014-07-24 09:08:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I know ;)
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 826 2014-07-24 09:10:03 <sipa> it requires headers that are structured in a different way
 827 2014-07-24 09:10:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I was there, remember? :p
 828 2014-07-24 09:11:32 <sipa> Luke-Jr: they were invented by amiller a while before that
 829 2014-07-24 09:11:56 <sipa> (for the purpose of synchronizing SPV nodes faster; our application was different)
 830 2014-07-24 09:12:04 <gmaxwell> well maybe, amiller keeps insisting on the weird almost correct form that doesn't work. :P
 831 2014-07-24 09:12:14 <sipa> i'm not convinced it doesn't
 832 2014-07-24 09:12:21 <sipa> (but not that it does either)
 833 2014-07-24 09:12:46 <gmaxwell> well it makes a very different proof, e.g. not of the actual work in the chain as we'd normally measure it.
 834 2014-07-24 09:16:18 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 838 2014-07-24 09:19:27 <Luke-Jr> I suppose one thing we *could* do today, is skip the prevblock part of the header for all but the first block header
 839 2014-07-24 09:19:55 <gmaxwell> oh to make the responses smaller?
 840 2014-07-24 09:20:00 <sipa> yup, we could
 841 2014-07-24 09:20:19 <sipa> also, we could drop the pointless vtx count (=0) at the end of headers
 842 2014-07-24 09:20:40 <sipa> ;;calc 33*[blocks]
 843 2014-07-24 09:20:41 <gribble> 10304217
 844 2014-07-24 09:20:52 <gmaxwell> (it's a ~bug that number isn't included in the data hashed... alas)
 845 2014-07-24 09:21:01 <gmaxwell> thats pretty good.
 846 2014-07-24 09:21:03 <sipa> in fact, we could also drop nBits
 847 2014-07-24 09:21:27 <gmaxwell> yes, and time could be reduced to a much smaller amount if you don't mind a variable length encoding.
 848 2014-07-24 09:21:41 <gmaxwell> likewise for version.
 849 2014-07-24 09:21:57 <sipa> those together could probably save 6 extra bytes
 850 2014-07-24 09:22:01 chichov has joined
 851 2014-07-24 09:22:02 <sipa> ;;calc 39*[blocks]
 852 2014-07-24 09:22:02 <gribble> 12177711
 853 2014-07-24 09:22:16 <chichov> what's the precise encoding scheme used in bitcoin signatures?
 854 2014-07-24 09:22:18 <gmaxwell> seems not terribly important compared to $gigs.
 855 2014-07-24 09:22:22 <sipa> chichov: DER
 856 2014-07-24 09:22:23 <chichov> ASN.1? DER?
 857 2014-07-24 09:22:28 <chichov> sipa: thanks
 858 2014-07-24 09:22:37 <sipa> chichov: see BIP62 for a reference
 859 2014-07-24 09:22:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we could make nTime a 16-bit offset too :P
 860 2014-07-24 09:23:01 <Luke-Jr> ..maybe
 861 2014-07-24 09:23:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I said this above, it could be variable length. Probably would fit in <16 bits most of the time.
 862 2014-07-24 09:23:32 haskoiner has joined
 863 2014-07-24 09:23:41 <Luke-Jr> ah, missed that
 864 2014-07-24 09:24:25 <gmaxwell> but, doesn't seem super useful, ... I mean, if you suddenly care about overhead, the the skiplist commitments are much more fruitful.
 865 2014-07-24 09:24:32 <Luke-Jr> guess I'm overdue for bed
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 877 2014-07-24 09:43:33 <sipa> a simple VARINT based encoding uses 12147677 bytes
 878 2014-07-24 09:44:08 <sipa> ;;calc 12147677 / 312251
 879 2014-07-24 09:44:09 <gribble> 38.9035647604
 880 2014-07-24 09:49:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: for time are you subtracting off the median?
 881 2014-07-24 09:49:50 derbumi has quit (Quit: derbumi)
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 883 2014-07-24 09:50:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: good idea; let's see if that makes a difference
 884 2014-07-24 09:51:07 <sipa> probably bitpacking the version and that adjusted difference into one integer would save more
 885 2014-07-24 09:52:10 <sipa> ;;calc 12153661 / 312252
 886 2014-07-24 09:52:10 <gribble> 38.9226041787
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 888 2014-07-24 09:52:35 <sipa> i need a better encoding for negative numbers too
 889 2014-07-24 09:53:56 xenog has joined
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 893 2014-07-24 09:55:57 <gmaxwell> if you use the median of the last ten there will never be a negative number.
 894 2014-07-24 09:56:12 <gmaxwell> er 11.
 895 2014-07-24 09:57:06 <sipa> oooh!
 896 2014-07-24 09:58:02 <gmaxwell> (thats what I originally meant. :P )
 897 2014-07-24 09:59:56 <sipa> ;;calc 12178300 / 312252
 898 2014-07-24 09:59:56 <gribble> 39.0015115996
 899 2014-07-24 10:00:26 <sipa> i think the direct difference (with negative number support) is better because it's more frequently just one byte
 900 2014-07-24 10:00:33 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 901 2014-07-24 10:00:37 <sipa> the difference with the median of the last 11 very rarely is
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 905 2014-07-24 10:07:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: well you could handle negative numbers by coding zero and then the value differenced with the median, then offset your prediction to get the best size.
 906 2014-07-24 10:09:33 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 907 2014-07-24 10:11:45 <sipa> ;;calc 11951145 / 312253
 908 2014-07-24 10:11:46 <gribble> 38.273915703
 909 2014-07-24 10:11:48 <sipa> \o/
 910 2014-07-24 10:12:42 <sipa> wait
 911 2014-07-24 10:12:58 <gmaxwell> why are we hypermiling headers in any case?
 912 2014-07-24 10:13:16 <sipa> because squeezing the last bits out of something is fun?
 913 2014-07-24 10:13:22 <Jouke_> :)
 914 2014-07-24 10:14:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh well, if thats the goal, you need a proper entropy encoder, and a mining loop to recover the last 8 bits of the nonce. :P
 915 2014-07-24 10:14:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: been there, done that
 916 2014-07-24 10:14:28 <sipa> well, not the nonce grinding
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 919 2014-07-24 10:15:38 <sipa> but using varints and conditions in an encoding may be (might be? pretty please?) acceptable on the P2P protocol; an entropy codes would be a bridge too far
 920 2014-07-24 10:15:43 <sipa> or s/bridge/bit/
 921 2014-07-24 10:17:15 <gmaxwell> next you're going to say we can't replace INV's with optimal polynominal-ratio set reconciliation?
 922 2014-07-24 10:18:32 <gmaxwell> sadly most of those improvements go away for skiplist header proofs.
 923 2014-07-24 10:19:51 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 924 2014-07-24 10:20:11 <kazcw> "here's some data stem cells, use them to replace whatever you happen to be missing"
 925 2014-07-24 10:20:36 <Jouke_> :}
 926 2014-07-24 10:21:07 <petertodd> sipa: as someone who is implementing CMerkleBlock and friends right now, just keep it !@#$ simple...
 927 2014-07-24 10:21:21 <sipa> petertodd: :D
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 929 2014-07-24 10:21:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I went through this list https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fallback_Nodes#Tor_nodes and found 8 working hidden service nodes
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 932 2014-07-24 10:22:24 <gmaxwell> one of the reasons we need to have multiple p2p protocols is so that you can implement very efficient transports and when someone whines 'complex to implement!' you can respond "so? like I care?"
 933 2014-07-24 10:22:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: +1
 934 2014-07-24 10:23:13 <petertodd> and when the complex one inevitably turns out to be riddled with bugs the simple one will get the data relayed anyway
 935 2014-07-24 10:23:43 <wumpus> A P2P network of P2P networks!
 936 2014-07-24 10:23:58 <sipa> wumpus: i have 17 hidden service nodes that have >50% 30d availability
 937 2014-07-24 10:24:04 <sipa> (my crawler)
 938 2014-07-24 10:24:21 <wumpus> sipa: okay, cool, can you send me those?
 939 2014-07-24 10:24:35 <drizztbsd> do you know any vps hosting that permits tor?
 940 2014-07-24 10:24:43 <petertodd> wumpus: violating the DNS seed policy already... tsk tsk
 941 2014-07-24 10:25:01 <wumpus> petertodd: he's not logging DNS requests
 942 2014-07-24 10:25:08 <petertodd> wumpus: I'm kidding :)
 943 2014-07-24 10:25:12 <wumpus> petertodd: results from crawling can be used for anything
 944 2014-07-24 10:25:15 <wumpus> petertodd: oh okay :)
 945 2014-07-24 10:25:31 <petertodd> wumpus: but that is a good example why that distinction is important!
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 947 2014-07-24 10:25:47 <gmaxwell> I was sure to make that distinction for that kind of reason.
 948 2014-07-24 10:25:47 <wumpus> also you can easily run a crawler without running a dns seed
 949 2014-07-24 10:25:56 <petertodd> yup, I've done that before myself
 950 2014-07-24 10:26:16 <wumpus> drizztbsd: unless you want to run an exit node it's usually not a problem in my experience
 951 2014-07-24 10:26:37 <sipa> wumpus: http://0bin.net/paste/28HvtEt2xPFXHJF6#EuiF4u-lgWWOkM/74Wu+JtnPeUzfMRN9o2vrsjiKaJv
 952 2014-07-24 10:26:48 <petertodd> drizztbsd: if you're really worried, buy your vps service with bitcoins...
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 954 2014-07-24 10:27:09 <wumpus> drizztbsd: I've had complains about connecting to IRC from vps'es, but never about tor
 955 2014-07-24 10:27:17 <drizztbsd> ok, thanks
 956 2014-07-24 10:27:24 <drizztbsd> and sorry for the slight ot :)
 957 2014-07-24 10:27:43 <sipa> wumpus: my VPS is in Amsterdam, and i'm connected to irc from it
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 959 2014-07-24 10:29:04 <wumpus> sipa: well it's completely anecdotal and a long time ago, I suspect they were being used as launch pad for DoS attacks or spam and eventually decided to forbid IRC usage entirely
 960 2014-07-24 10:29:34 <wumpus> sipa: thanks for the list
 961 2014-07-24 10:29:56 <gmaxwell> on networks without nickserv and such it used to be adventagious to DOS attack people you didn't like off the network so you could take their names, or become ops in channels they were in.
 962 2014-07-24 10:30:27 <gmaxwell> (the latter was usually more a motivation to attack servers, but on small channels users worked too)
 963 2014-07-24 10:31:32 <wumpus> sipa: so your crawler crawls tor too?
 964 2014-07-24 10:32:23 <wumpus> sipa: I quickly looked at the dns-seeder code and didn't see anything with tor so I assumed it didn't, but I  supposedly didn't look good enough
 965 2014-07-24 10:33:20 <petertodd> wumpus: -o <ip:port>    Tor proxy IP/Port
 966 2014-07-24 10:33:36 <wumpus> petertodd: ok
 967 2014-07-24 10:34:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: only 17? we need more of those.
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 969 2014-07-24 10:34:40 <wumpus> ok, eliminiating the duplicates I have 23 now
 970 2014-07-24 10:34:48 <petertodd> easiest might be to make the ubuntu packages depend on tor, and have a small compile script to setup the hidden service
 971 2014-07-24 10:35:05 YoY has joined
 972 2014-07-24 10:35:11 <wumpus> + my own that just added as hidden service
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 974 2014-07-24 10:35:41 <drizztbsd> petertodd: some isp filters tor
 975 2014-07-24 10:35:46 <sipa> i have 24 that are considered well-reachable
 976 2014-07-24 10:35:47 <drizztbsd> you have to use a bridge
 977 2014-07-24 10:35:52 <sipa> but that's a more short-term criterion
 978 2014-07-24 10:36:13 <petertodd> drizztbsd: I'm not suggesting we ship bitcoind Tor-only, suggesting we use both to connect
 979 2014-07-24 10:36:30 <petertodd> drizztbsd: this is particularly important with stuff like fee estimation that assumes you aren't being sybil attacked
 980 2014-07-24 10:37:03 <wumpus> sipa: do you have testnet hidden services too?
 981 2014-07-24 10:37:29 <wumpus> I wouldn't think anyone would bother to run that, but heh, to be consistent
 982 2014-07-24 10:38:39 <sipa> i don't have anything testnet, no
 983 2014-07-24 10:38:41 <gmaxwell> I do, but doubt my testnet node would meet a 50% test.
 984 2014-07-24 10:38:50 <sipa> not permanently running at least
 985 2014-07-24 10:39:00 <gmaxwell> I could setup a reliable testnet hidden service node.
 986 2014-07-24 10:40:53 <wumpus> well if we hardcode onionseeds, having at least one for testnet would be useful
 987 2014-07-24 10:42:57 Zarutian has joined
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 989 2014-07-24 10:44:32 <wumpus> oh, we don't have normal pnSeeds for testnet either
 990 2014-07-24 10:44:55 <sipa> move those to chainparams...
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 993 2014-07-24 10:46:06 <wumpus> they are in chainparams
 994 2014-07-24 10:46:20 <wumpus> there are just none for testnet
 995 2014-07-24 10:47:26 <gmaxwell> we don't.. perhaps we should also change how pnseeds work and have them unconditionally dump into addrman if its size 0 at start, would increase strenght against unfriendly dnsseeds..
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 998 2014-07-24 10:49:27 <iwilcox> Is it intentional that onlynet=tor still contacts seeds via exit nodes?
 999 2014-07-24 10:51:26 <wumpus> shouldn't it be onlynet=onion anyway?
1000 2014-07-24 10:51:37 <wumpus> ah, no , it's' still onlynet=tor
1001 2014-07-24 10:51:37 arioBarzan has joined
1002 2014-07-24 10:52:36 <gmaxwell> iwilcox: it has no initilization method at all absent the seeds, so.. wumpus is fixing that now, however.
1003 2014-07-24 10:53:23 <iwilcox> I'd imagine folks sufficiently motivated to use tor would be happy to put addnode/seednode in their config
1004 2014-07-24 10:54:14 <iwilcox> I'm just annoyed way beyond reason/proportion that bitcoind never gives up trying to contact dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org — dunno why that gets to me, it just does.
1005 2014-07-24 10:54:37 <gmaxwell> considering how many times people have complained about it not working even with the dnsseed going on... doubt that, but with the internal list it would be more reasonable.
1006 2014-07-24 10:54:38 <wumpus> iwilcox: try jgarzik's don't-use-dnsseeds-if-not-needed patch, it's great
1007 2014-07-24 10:55:41 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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1009 2014-07-24 10:56:32 <iwilcox> Oh, I'll look that one up, thanks
1010 2014-07-24 10:58:13 <wumpus> I think it makes sense to replace pnSeeds with IPv6,port pairs instead, so that it can be used for IPv6 seed nodes as well once we have those (onion is just a subset of IPv6 for us)
1011 2014-07-24 10:58:21 <arioBarzan> could someone give an example of a txCopy on testnet for explaining "what should be signed" for Hashtype SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY? I have been unsuccessful with 01000000-01-6df783b57b5827102159dbbcd96ecf36d8ea8cbeedfb983c5f21bf5c31c589e1-01000000-19-76a914154fa19034d0024497a45c70f19fc428594ecafa88ac-ffffffff-01-a03e8a0000000000-19-76a91487282ccf16c001afad5f593694ff1357c7cf9b1f88ac-00000000-80000000
1012 2014-07-24 11:00:25 <wumpus> meh just going to add a pnSeed6 for now
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1043 2014-07-24 12:06:18 <arioBarzan> know any website for pushing a testnet raw transaction?
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1050 2014-07-24 12:13:09 <elichai2> arioBarzan: what's wrong with bitcoin-cli?
1051 2014-07-24 12:13:20 akstunt600 has joined
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1053 2014-07-24 12:14:12 <arioBarzan> elichai2: I don't have a synced node on testnet.
1054 2014-07-24 12:14:58 <elichai2> i don't think there is a site
1055 2014-07-24 12:15:32 bkbk has joined
1056 2014-07-24 12:15:50 <elichai2> but i just got an idea, why not sombody will get a good server and run on it bitcoind and give the RPC prefs to anyone who need?
1057 2014-07-24 12:16:26 YoY has joined
1058 2014-07-24 12:16:53 <arioBarzan> tbtc.blockr.io/tx/push does push tx on testnet, and I have used it for few transactions, but I have one raw tx that they don't accept it.
1059 2014-07-24 12:17:28 <elichai2> so maybe it's invaild :P
1060 2014-07-24 12:17:39 <elichai2> give it to me, i'll try push it
1061 2014-07-24 12:17:46 <elichai2> (i have fully synced node to testnet)
1062 2014-07-24 12:18:03 <arioBarzan> thanks a lot
1063 2014-07-24 12:18:04 <arioBarzan> 01000000019B156F4B35672DDEB209E5DFF44471DD347A0DFED5FCCEB3795510BCA8C5E67800000000B5493046022100F214C8614EAF83B03AE2936039A1F2F0E63698A64025055CCB8FD38820F3680E022100ED22788583243184E89D1144409F67786FF2539C477596F9A6742EB7CF76ECA601483045022100D50880576FF6A86573B62C76F136FEB21346C8ECAED2996ACCBB6C2F2A5F9FE20220642B9CD1810669EDEA86E3C4655D13C4540F7FAB1E4C3F9996006E003F1AA9DD012102CEF2A85A1F45F62AD5A896CB5FC93FB1A87232955D0BD4D1B124527
1064 2014-07-24 12:18:04 <arioBarzan> 0A0C12AD6FFFFFFFF01C08C8A00000000001976A91487282CCF16C001AFAD5F593694FF1357C7CF9B1F88AC00000000
1065 2014-07-24 12:18:08 <elichai2> wait
1066 2014-07-24 12:18:10 <elichai2> pastebin it
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1068 2014-07-24 12:18:56 <elichai2> arioBarzan: ?
1069 2014-07-24 12:18:56 arioBarzan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1071 2014-07-24 12:19:59 <arioBarzan> elichai2: couldn't pastebin it
1072 2014-07-24 12:20:11 <drizztbsd> whynot?
1073 2014-07-24 12:20:45 <elichai2> why not?
1074 2014-07-24 12:20:51 <elichai2> you are on linux?
1075 2014-07-24 12:20:58 <arioBarzan> tried but failed, just concatenate the two parts I sent please.
1076 2014-07-24 12:21:07 <elichai2> if yes so pipe the output to pastebinit tool
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1083 2014-07-24 12:29:15 <arioBarzan> elichai2: I've put it @ meighti.cu.cc/rawtx.txt
1084 2014-07-24 12:32:29 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1085 2014-07-24 12:33:00 <arioBarzan> elichai2: did your bitcoind also reject it? I'm not sure if it is valid
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1090 2014-07-24 12:35:27 <arioBarzan_> elichai2: I've put it @ http://meighti.cu.cc/rawtx.txt
1091 2014-07-24 12:35:49 <arioBarzan_> elichai2: did your bitcoind also reject it? I'm not sure if it is valid
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1101 2014-07-24 12:44:23 <arioBarzan> elichai2: are you still there?
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1112 2014-07-24 12:51:04 <rdponticelli> arioBarzan: Yes, bitcoind is rejecting it
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1115 2014-07-24 12:52:43 <arioBarzan> rdponticelli: thanks. I was trying to create a tx with an input with hashtype SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY, apparently still no success.
1116 2014-07-24 12:54:18 <arioBarzan> the wiki says that "The txCopy input vector is resized to a length of one. The subScript (lead in by its length as a var-integer encoded!) is set as the first and only member of this vector."
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1123 2014-07-24 13:07:49 <elichai2> arioBarzan: sorry.... i went to do something.... i'm here now
1124 2014-07-24 13:08:36 <elichai2> make sure the subscript isn't longer than 500 bits
1125 2014-07-24 13:09:04 <arioBarzan> elichai2: no problem, the tx was rejected on rdponticelli's node.
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1133 2014-07-24 13:13:57 <petertodd> arioBarzan: read the source; the wiki has some subtle bugs
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1135 2014-07-24 13:15:39 <petertodd> arioBarzan: that said, >0.9 made SignatureHash() *way* harder to understand; read the 0.8 source instead
1136 2014-07-24 13:16:20 <arioBarzan> petertodd: thanks
1137 2014-07-24 13:16:21 <petertodd> arioBarzan: also, python-bitcoinlib's implementation is correct and easy to read: https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/blob/master/bitcoin/core/script.py#L879
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1141 2014-07-24 13:18:34 <sipa> petertodd: the original 0.8 code is still in the unit tests
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1143 2014-07-24 13:19:00 <petertodd> sipa: what's the function name called again? I was just looking for that
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1153 2014-07-24 13:30:51 <elichai2> petertodd: there is any way to deBug the transaction vaild check?
1154 2014-07-24 13:31:51 <sipa> recent bitcoind will tell you what went wrong, when you use sendrawtransaction
1155 2014-07-24 13:32:14 <elichai2> sipa: mines just tell me: 'error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX rejected"}'
1156 2014-07-24 13:32:21 <sipa> what version bitcoind?
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1159 2014-07-24 13:34:21 <elichai2> sipa: just a sec...
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1170 2014-07-24 13:46:23 <kruug> so, working on setting up gitian-builder per the debian instructions, I get this for an error: http://pastebin.com/85206Hxv
1171 2014-07-24 13:46:35 <elichai2> sipa: Bitcoin RPC client version v0.9.1.0-g026a939-beta
1172 2014-07-24 13:48:43 <wumpus> kruug: did you install vmbuilder from source as mentioned in the guide
1173 2014-07-24 13:49:04 <kruug> yes
1174 2014-07-24 13:49:13 <kruug> I followed the instructions via copy+paste
1175 2014-07-24 13:49:50 <wumpus> I'm *sure* that last time I followed those instructions, they worked
1176 2014-07-24 13:49:54 <kruug> I'm building on LMDE
1177 2014-07-24 13:50:03 <kruug> not sure if that is an issue.
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1179 2014-07-24 13:50:31 <wumpus> that may be the reason, probably it is some version conflict somewhere
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1181 2014-07-24 13:50:53 <wumpus> maybe if you google for the error it bring up some hits
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1183 2014-07-24 13:51:10 <kruug> no, it only brought up the same error tag with a different module
1184 2014-07-24 13:51:31 <kruug> and google searching for hte module, and it brings up code that references the module
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1186 2014-07-24 13:51:53 <kruug> I'll just spin up a debian virtual machine...
1187 2014-07-24 13:52:11 <wumpus> the curious thing is that register_hypervisor_plugin is an internal module part of VMbuilder
1188 2014-07-24 13:52:29 <wumpus> so you downloaded and installed it already, how can it fail importing it?
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1190 2014-07-24 13:53:29 <wumpus> does the file exist?
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1194 2014-07-24 13:55:31 <kruug> wumpus: how can I check?
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1200 2014-07-24 14:03:10 <kruug> wumpus: all of the files from the Traceback are present
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1206 2014-07-24 14:09:51 <wumpus> kruug: I cannot help you with the details of python debugging
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1208 2014-07-24 14:10:20 <kruug> ugh...I wish there was an actual gitian support network instead of relying on bitcoin devs...
1209 2014-07-24 14:10:33 <wumpus> but there are various ways, from fully-fledged UI debuggers to simple tracing
1210 2014-07-24 14:10:50 <wumpus> kruug: well, start one! :)
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1213 2014-07-24 14:11:18 <kruug> I would, but I'm on the side of needing help instead of the side of offering help...
1214 2014-07-24 14:12:03 <wumpus> we're all on both sides
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1223 2014-07-24 14:16:21 <sipa> elichai2: try 0.9.2.1
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1227 2014-07-24 14:24:52 <rdponticelli> elichai2, sipa: I got -25, which is RPC_TRANSACTION_ERROR on a recent 0.9.99
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1234 2014-07-24 14:35:00 <elichai2> sipa: ok.... maybe i'll just use the master?
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1241 2014-07-24 14:42:20 <wumpus> you could, although master is less tested than the releases so you must be prepared to debug issues
1242 2014-07-24 14:42:47 <elichai2> but master won't do problems to me?
1243 2014-07-24 14:42:59 <wumpus> it could.
1244 2014-07-24 14:43:01 <elichai2> because of the fact that isStandard is diffrent?
1245 2014-07-24 14:43:18 <elichai2> and it can accept some tx's that miners won't accept?
1246 2014-07-24 14:43:22 <kruug> wumpus: created ##gitian.  Now taking applications for ops
1247 2014-07-24 14:43:23 <kruug> :)
1248 2014-07-24 14:43:40 <wumpus> kruug: heh
1249 2014-07-24 14:43:51 <sipa> elichai2: master may format your harddrive, use at your own risk
1250 2014-07-24 14:44:03 <elichai2> sipa: whhhhhaaaattttt?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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1252 2014-07-24 14:44:09 <elichai2> why would it???
1253 2014-07-24 14:44:12 <wumpus> kruug: do invite devrandom, he created gitian :)
1254 2014-07-24 14:44:17 <sipa> elichai2: because it's not well tested
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1257 2014-07-24 14:44:34 <sipa> of course, it's exceedingly unlikely that it will do something like that
1258 2014-07-24 14:44:41 <sipa> but i won't promise you that it won't
1259 2014-07-24 14:44:43 <elichai2> sipa: ohhh lol
1260 2014-07-24 14:44:53 <elichai2> you really trying to make people crazy, ha?
1261 2014-07-24 14:44:59 <wumpus> of course, releases may also format your harddisk, there is never any guarantee, but much more people have tried them
1262 2014-07-24 14:45:19 <sipa> elichai2: i'm just trying to explain to you that you should be cautious, and that we can't promise anything
1263 2014-07-24 14:45:28 <sipa> master may or may not work; no promises
1264 2014-07-24 14:45:28 <elichai2> btw, if i don't give it root access it can only rm my home dir
1265 2014-07-24 14:45:45 <wumpus> elichai2: which is usually where the most important files are :p
1266 2014-07-24 14:45:55 <elichai2> yeah lol
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1283 2014-07-24 15:12:18 <arioBarzan> guys do you have any example transaction which one of its inputs is signed by hashtype SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY ?
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1288 2014-07-24 15:16:01 <kruug> wumpus: it had to have been an issue with something on LMDE...I have Debian 7.4 running and everything is working
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1298 2014-07-24 15:26:20 <cfields> wumpus / sipa: ping
1299 2014-07-24 15:27:18 <cfields> is there any particular hold-up on the libsecp256k1 merge? If you guys are waiting on me for some reason I'm happy to PR it, but I figured sipa would when he was ready
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1328 2014-07-24 15:56:57 <jcorgan> related question--will libsecp256k1 "live" as part of the bitcoin source code, or will it continue to be packaged separately?  i already have code that is dynamically linking to the .so :)
1329 2014-07-24 15:57:15 <sipa> jcorgan: part of the source code, like leveldb
1330 2014-07-24 15:57:25 <sipa> cfields: i'd like to wait a bit
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1334 2014-07-24 15:58:37 <cfields> sipa: ok. again, no rush from me at all. I just get the feeling now and then that wumpus wants me to try to shove it in :)
1335 2014-07-24 15:58:55 <jcorgan> hmm. will have to think about how to keep using it once the standalone shared library goes away
1336 2014-07-24 15:59:20 <wumpus> cfields: yes, I'd prefer to have itmerged as experimental option 
1337 2014-07-24 15:59:29 <cfields> jcorgan: it's not going away. We'll subtree merge to keep it in sync now and then, same as leveldb
1338 2014-07-24 15:59:57 <sipa> cfields: yeah, the secp256k1 repo won't disappear; it's just going to be copied inside the bitcoin tree
1339 2014-07-24 16:00:04 <jcorgan> i see, my misunderstanding
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1368 2014-07-24 16:40:16 <wumpus> don't be afraid, leveldb upstream didn't disappear either after we merged it in :p
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1454 2014-07-24 17:54:45 <jgarzik> hum
1455 2014-07-24 17:54:57 <jgarzik> never thought about transaction input order of evaluation before, RE sighash
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1477 2014-07-24 18:20:38 <Urushiol> is there a channel just for Armory?
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1504 2014-07-24 18:47:07 <sipa> jgarzik: input order of evaluation?
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1517 2014-07-24 19:03:03 <jcorgan> sipa: minor conflict merging headersfirst8 into current master
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1522 2014-07-24 19:08:37 <sipa> jcorgan: rebased
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1525 2014-07-24 19:09:10 <jcorgan> wow, thanks
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1563 2014-07-24 19:37:47 <tsutsu> on OSX 10.9.3 + bitcoin-qt 0.9.2.1, I’m seeing .ldb files in my chainstate/ and no .sst files. Apparently this is making the chainstate incompatible for import with a client running Ubuntu 14.04 + bitcoin-qt 0.9.1, and forcing a -reindex. Was there a breaking change here? I wasn’t seeing the behavior previously—I was able to build a blockchain on OSX, then sync it to an S3 bucket where my cloud Linux instances could make use of
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1567 2014-07-24 19:40:39 <sipa> did you build with a local leveldb version, rather than the in-tree one?
1568 2014-07-24 19:41:38 <tsutsu> I’m using the official binary release for OSX, and the bitcoin/bitcoin PPA for Ubuntu
1569 2014-07-24 19:42:12 <tsutsu> I’m trying to figure out whether Homebrew might have installed an alternate leveldb that OSX is picking up somehow, but it doesn’t look like it
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1573 2014-07-24 19:45:27 <sipa> 0.9.2.1 should write .ldb, 0.9.1 should write .sst
1574 2014-07-24 19:45:35 <sipa> but both should be able to read eachother's data
1575 2014-07-24 19:46:24 <tsutsu> hmm
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1579 2014-07-24 19:49:48 <Emcy> what did sst mean
1580 2014-07-24 19:50:20 <tsutsu> sorted string table
1581 2014-07-24 19:50:40 <tsutsu> LevelDB changed it because apparently Windows thought it was a system file and was insisting on backing it up
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1583 2014-07-24 19:51:31 <Emcy> toplol
1584 2014-07-24 19:51:39 <tsutsu> ah, I got it; the sst -> ldb change was a red herring
1585 2014-07-24 19:52:56 <tsutsu> the real problem was that the CURRENT files in the blocks/index/ and chainstate/ were referring to non-existent (lower-numbered-than-should-be) MANIFEST- files
1586 2014-07-24 19:53:08 <tsutsu> I would think a clean shutdown would write the correct referents to those
1587 2014-07-24 19:53:16 <tsutsu> LevelDB bug?
1588 2014-07-24 19:55:19 maraoz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1589 2014-07-24 19:55:27 <tsutsu> or is bitcoind not closing LDB correctly?
1590 2014-07-24 19:56:30 <sipa> only leveldb touches anything inside chainstate/ or blocks/index/
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1600 2014-07-24 20:02:50 <tsutsu> right, but whether it manages to get a last update to those files out or not would be determined by whether bitcoind tells it to clean itself up when shutting down (unless it has an atexit(3) hook or something)
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1612 2014-07-24 20:09:28 <tsutsu> hm; I guess LevelDB just cleans up in its destructor
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1636 2014-07-24 20:33:12 <elichai2> hey, when i'm trying to sign rawtx it's asking for RedeemScript, is it right? (it's not multisig!)
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1638 2014-07-24 20:34:22 <sipa> it's only needed for p2sh
1639 2014-07-24 20:35:55 <elichai2> ok
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1648 2014-07-24 20:41:07 <elichai2> sipa: so you can change it from 'required'
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1722 2014-07-24 22:08:03 <gmaxwell> cdecker: We are explictly _NOT_ interested in DNSSEEDs acting in a surveillance role. Part of the motivation of using DNS was already that the caching obscures usage information. If we wanted to have a phone-home to collect statistics, we'd have an explict one so that its operation was transparent and so that users could opt out of it without losing other functionality.
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1729 2014-07-24 22:15:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think he might have meant measuring load. maybe.
1730 2014-07-24 22:15:37 <gmaxwell> maybe! thats why I IRCed instead of just responding back on the pull. seems to have not worked.
1731 2014-07-24 22:16:02 <gmaxwell> Load is perfectly sane, 'necessary for the operation of the service' but could be made more clear.
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1753 2014-07-24 22:47:03 hanti is now known as HANTI
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1761 2014-07-24 22:51:05 <cdecker_> Hi, sorry for not replying earlier
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1771 2014-07-24 22:54:08 <cdecker_> Damn I should check IRC more often
1772 2014-07-24 22:54:10 <cdecker_> :-)
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1778 2014-07-24 23:05:02 <cdecker_> Well I'll try again tomorrow
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1818 2014-07-24 23:50:48 <elichai2> i need help with SIGHASH_NONE anyone expert?
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