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  96 2014-07-26 02:05:33 <HaltingState> sipa, in "int secp256k1_ecdsa_privkey_tweak_mul(unsigned char *seckey, const unsigned char *tweak) {"
  97 2014-07-26 02:05:37 <HaltingState> secp256k1_num_mod_mul(&sec, &sec, &factor, &secp256k1_ge_consts->order);
  98 2014-07-26 02:06:13 <HaltingState> you are checking if a 32 byte value (seckey) is greater than order of the curve, which is 33 byte int?
  99 2014-07-26 02:06:38 <sipa> the order of the curve is 32 bytes
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 101 2014-07-26 02:07:52 <sipa> around 2^256 - O(2^128)
 102 2014-07-26 02:08:39 <HaltingState> a pubkey is a point on curve, so two values less than order of curve, but compresses to 33 bytes, hmm
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 104 2014-07-26 02:09:08 <sipa> a _serialized_ pubkey is 32 bytes
 105 2014-07-26 02:09:20 <sipa> it has 1 byte header + 32 bytes x coordinate
 106 2014-07-26 02:09:22 <HaltingState> 32 bytes + 4
 107 2014-07-26 02:09:27 <sipa> ?
 108 2014-07-26 02:09:36 <HaltingState> isnt there a value from 0 to 3
 109 2014-07-26 02:09:41 <sipa> ?
 110 2014-07-26 02:09:52 <sipa> what are you talking about?
 111 2014-07-26 02:09:53 <HaltingState> nm, signature recovery
 112 2014-07-26 02:10:06 <HaltingState> how do you get 32 bytes for public keys?
 113 2014-07-26 02:10:13 <sipa> you don't
 114 2014-07-26 02:10:25 <sipa> the x coordinate is 32 bytes
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 117 2014-07-26 02:10:31 <sipa> but that's not a full public key
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 121 2014-07-26 02:11:31 <sipa> also, you started talking about private keys (which are 32 byte ints), and then switched to public key (which are pairs of 32-byte ints, serialized in compressed form to 33 bytes)
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 123 2014-07-26 02:11:45 <sipa> they're different things
 124 2014-07-26 02:11:51 <sipa> the curve order is a number, not a point
 125 2014-07-26 02:12:16 <HaltingState> sorry confused; solved issue. secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_tweak_mul wont fail as long as the seckey and pubkey are valid
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 127 2014-07-26 02:15:32 <HaltingState> the issue i was having is that seckey generation cannot fail; you are taking the base point and raising it to power of seckey. I dont think there is check there for whether seckey is larger than order of curve, but that same seckey can fail when used in function that does the order check
 128 2014-07-26 02:15:40 <HaltingState> secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_create does not check to see if seckey is less than order of curve
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 132 2014-07-26 02:16:21 <HaltingState> so secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_create will succeed for seckey larger than order of curve, but will fail when used in secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_tweak_add
 133 2014-07-26 02:16:22 Knuk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 134 2014-07-26 02:18:41 <gmaxwell> if it does, thats a bug
 135 2014-07-26 02:18:51 <HaltingState> https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/src/secp256k1.c
 136 2014-07-26 02:19:40 <HaltingState> secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_create does not check that seckey is less than order of curve, and so may accept valid seckey (why shouldnt it? seckey is just integer that b is raised to). where check is made for whether seckey is less than order of curve in secp256k1_ecdsa_seckey_verify
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 143 2014-07-26 02:30:12 <HaltingState> sipa, should I do pull request? secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_create succeeds for seckeys larger than order of curve, but secp256k1_ecdsa_pubkey_tweak_add will fail if you use the same seckey because of the order check
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 206 2014-07-26 04:03:40 <torokun> question
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 208 2014-07-26 04:04:18 <torokun> is anyone actually working on a solution to the growth in blockchain size, and what is the priority of that to current developers?
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 211 2014-07-26 04:06:56 <jgarzik> torokun, 1) yes   2) difficult question to answer, regardless of the specific topic
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 213 2014-07-26 04:07:58 <torokun> so is there a branch with some aspects of that being worked on, or is it sort of in the concept phase?
 214 2014-07-26 04:09:08 <torokun> regarding priority, I have seen devs refer to prioritization of features a number of times -- just wondering where that issue fell in the spectrum of important to maybe someday...
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 232 2014-07-26 04:23:52 <jgarzik> torokun, it's not one solution, it's 1000 solutions.  increasing (or reducing decrease) full node count is important, therefore anything we can do to ease pain there is useful.
 233 2014-07-26 04:25:23 ericmuyser has joined
 234 2014-07-26 04:27:54 <torokun> I have been thinking about ideas to ameliorate that...
 235 2014-07-26 04:29:19 <torokun> There must be a way that you could have sort of checkpoints every X blocks, at which you consolidate the picture of all unspent outputs and create a new blob of that which could be shared instead of the entire chain.
 236 2014-07-26 04:29:47 <torokun> It could be a series of blocks or a new type of binary database file.
 237 2014-07-26 04:29:50 <kazcw> and trust someone to make a checkpoint?
 238 2014-07-26 04:29:56 <torokun> no
 239 2014-07-26 04:30:08 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 240 2014-07-26 04:30:15 <torokun> I think the process would have to be in the client, and you would have to have multiple clients do it and hash it.
 241 2014-07-26 04:30:35 <torokun> then they could all compare their results and sort of approve it distributedly.
 242 2014-07-26 04:30:43 <kazcw> you can't trust something just because multiple peers attest to it
 243 2014-07-26 04:30:53 <kazcw> not if you want even spv-level security
 244 2014-07-26 04:31:28 <torokun> well, it's a question of how much verification you would want in order to trust it.
 245 2014-07-26 04:31:36 <torokun> if you want it unanimous, you could do that.
 246 2014-07-26 04:31:55 <Blxjander> How about making it a client-node specific shorthand?
 247 2014-07-26 04:31:56 <torokun> then people downloading the client after that point would be able to trust it at least.
 248 2014-07-26 04:32:00 Knuk has joined
 249 2014-07-26 04:32:09 <kazcw> unanimous among your 8 peers?
 250 2014-07-26 04:32:37 <torokun> well, i'm not completely clear on how the network operates yet.
 251 2014-07-26 04:33:09 <torokun> if it were a note-specific shorthand, it wouldn't help new users by shortening the download time for them...
 252 2014-07-26 04:33:16 <torokun> "node-specific"
 253 2014-07-26 04:33:58 <Blxjander> torokun: it would be usable if multiple nodes were providing the blockchain...and provided the same "shorthand" verification strings for the same block range...
 254 2014-07-26 04:34:11 <Blxjander> that block can be skipped and downloaded later
 255 2014-07-26 04:34:17 <Blxjander> without any immediate priority
 256 2014-07-26 04:34:25 <torokun> if there were a way for each node to create the checkpoint binary and distribute its hash on the network, and for all the nodes to know when every node agreed, then they could accept it.
 257 2014-07-26 04:34:51 <kazcw> you might want to get more of a handle on how it works before thinking you have the big solutions. if we could reach consensus just by having full nodes vote, we wouldn't need PoW
 258 2014-07-26 04:35:07 <Blxjander> every what...128 blocks in the chain become a larger contiguous checkpoint marked step?
 259 2014-07-26 04:35:40 <HaltingState> sipa, w00t. ECDH is working :) passed unit test http://i.imgur.com/qgySxbr.png
 260 2014-07-26 04:36:07 <torokun> kazcw - i do intend to - just in the process of ingesting much info.  but I have no delusions of grandeur here ... hehe.
 261 2014-07-26 04:36:07 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 262 2014-07-26 04:36:12 <torokun> Just thinking out loud.
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 264 2014-07-26 04:40:34 <HaltingState> the blockchain size is fine; the issue is download speed
 265 2014-07-26 04:41:26 <HaltingState> people are working on patch that will download headers of blocks first and then download the bodies from multiple peers; that will speed up download time a lot. right now the client downloads one block at a time and only from on person and if the person is uploading slowly, too bad
 266 2014-07-26 04:41:59 <torokun> yes, that will be great.
 267 2014-07-26 04:42:20 <wumpus> it's even already available, please help testing: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4468
 268 2014-07-26 04:43:27 <HaltingState> 30 GB is not too much; i can torrent that in an hour. i torrent a 6 GB anime series in 10 minutes. the issue is just the slow peers and one block at a time downloads
 269 2014-07-26 04:44:21 <HaltingState> also there is no real thin client standard for bitcoin, which is another problem; otherwise i would not need to run the blockchain for apps/libraries to sign transactions and inject them into network
 270 2014-07-26 04:45:19 <torokun> Yeah............  it's not infeasable, but there's not much else out there that takes an hour to download except for whole seasons of TV shows.
 271 2014-07-26 04:45:30 <wumpus> there is a think client standard for bitcoin: SPV
 272 2014-07-26 04:45:46 <torokun> SPV is good for what it is, certainly.
 273 2014-07-26 04:45:50 <wumpus> everything based on bitcoinj uses it, as wel las all the android applications
 274 2014-07-26 04:46:00 <wumpus> and iOS I suppose
 275 2014-07-26 04:46:14 <torokun> But I'm somewhat concerned that we'll end up with over 90% spv clients.
 276 2014-07-26 04:46:29 <wumpus> the thin client problem is one that has been solved years ago
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 278 2014-07-26 04:46:57 <wumpus> why would that be a problem?
 279 2014-07-26 04:47:28 <torokun> I would like running a full node to be as easy as helping to seed a torrent.
 280 2014-07-26 04:47:30 <wumpus> running full nodes is for enthousiasts, larger merchants, developers, it's not for everyone
 281 2014-07-26 04:47:42 <wumpus> SPV is meant to be for everyone
 282 2014-07-26 04:47:59 <wumpus> so it is sane for there to be lot's more SPV clients
 283 2014-07-26 04:48:05 <torokun> wumpus: that's only because it has to be at the moment, right?
 284 2014-07-26 04:48:13 <HaltingState> wumpus, is there implementation in golang?
 285 2014-07-26 04:48:26 <wumpus> torokun: well it just makes no sense to upload tons of data if you just want to make payments
 286 2014-07-26 04:48:37 <wumpus> torokun: you should see running a node and running a wallet separately
 287 2014-07-26 04:49:12 <torokun> unfortunately, then we have divorced all incentives except altruism from the running of full nodes...
 288 2014-07-26 04:49:25 <wumpus> it's only by historical accident that bitcoind/bitcoin-qt have both a wallet and node implementation built in, we're trying to fix that
 289 2014-07-26 04:49:38 <wumpus> but a lot of people already run it in disablewallet moe
 290 2014-07-26 04:49:39 <wumpus> mode*
 291 2014-07-26 04:50:17 <wumpus> HaltingState: yes btcd
 292 2014-07-26 04:50:42 <Blxjander> wumpus: so it is possible to download only the core bitcoind with blockchain only functionality?
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 294 2014-07-26 04:51:05 <wumpus> Blxjander: yes, either pass --disable-wallet at build time or -disablewallet at run time
 295 2014-07-26 04:51:13 <wumpus> Blxjander: been possible since 0.9.0
 296 2014-07-26 04:51:13 <HaltingState> btcd is full node
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 298 2014-07-26 04:51:44 <wumpus> HaltingState: oh, right, I don't know of any bitcoinj-like library for go
 299 2014-07-26 04:51:46 <HaltingState> https://gowalker.org/github.com/conformal/btcwallet
 300 2014-07-26 04:51:56 <wumpus> HaltingState: but should be pretty easy to build on top of that I suppose
 301 2014-07-26 04:52:09 <HaltingState> this requires a full node, but stores locally and seperates out the wallet from the node, which is nice
 302 2014-07-26 04:52:15 <torokun> well, wasn't the original idea that you wanted to verify the blockchain yourself if you were creating or receiving transactions?
 303 2014-07-26 04:52:17 <HaltingState> over the json interface
 304 2014-07-26 04:52:31 <wumpus> if you have all the message deserialization and network handling, making a SPV client isn't rocket science
 305 2014-07-26 04:53:04 <wumpus> but it may exist already (it's unfortunate that everything is fragmented due to division around programming languages, though)
 306 2014-07-26 04:54:11 <torokun> So what is in it for the guys running full nodes now?
 307 2014-07-26 04:54:19 <Blxjander> wumpus: what is the address of the bitcoind repository?... is it the same repo as bitcoin-qt?
 308 2014-07-26 04:54:47 <Blxjander> wumpus: and will I be stuck with gnu-autotools or cmake as a build system that I need to work around not having?
 309 2014-07-26 04:55:01 <wumpus> torokun: the idea of running a public piece of infrastructure; same as running any P2P service, really
 310 2014-07-26 04:55:25 <wumpus> Blxjander: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin , and we use autotools
 311 2014-07-26 04:55:48 <gmaxwell> torokun: for one, running behind a trusted full node provides SPV wallets with the best security. The SPV security model absolutely is reduced— generally fine for casual use, since so long as you wait for confirmations the primary attacks are costly ones.
 312 2014-07-26 04:56:15 <Blxjander> wumpus: well I will just have to sort out the RPi I have sitting here to run the autotools from a minimal arch linux server as a functional extension of my desktop then
 313 2014-07-26 04:56:22 rdymac has joined
 314 2014-07-26 04:56:31 <wumpus> Blxjander: uhm... ok
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 316 2014-07-26 04:57:54 <Blxjander> wumpus: I'm not running Mac/Win/Lin OS on my PPC desktop,  I have AmigaOS running on it
 317 2014-07-26 04:58:19 <wumpus> Blxjander: right, good luck with that
 318 2014-07-26 04:58:20 <gmaxwell> torokun: e.g. you should not generally be trusting payments you are reciving with value anywhere near the scale of the block rewards burrying them as irreversable, unless you have a known well connected full node.
 319 2014-07-26 04:58:44 <torokun> gmaxwell - yes, that's true - so we will and do already see services supporting spy wallets running their own nodes.  That will give a many many to one ratio of spy clients to full nodes though...  will that be a problem at some point?
 320 2014-07-26 04:59:00 <torokun> spy->spv
 321 2014-07-26 04:59:16 <phantomcircuit> torokun, you dont have to verify anything to send payments
 322 2014-07-26 04:59:18 <phantomcircuit> only to receive
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 324 2014-07-26 04:59:56 <Blxjander> torokun: eventually yeah it will be a problem
 325 2014-07-26 05:00:36 <Blxjander> torokun: as anyone running the full nodes effectively becomes an authority for the spv nodes and limit the distributed content of the network with regards the number of blockchain copies
 326 2014-07-26 05:00:54 <torokun> I honestly don't know - maybe, maybe not, it seems to me.
 327 2014-07-26 05:01:00 <wumpus> well at least a problem with an easy solution then, just run more full nodes
 328 2014-07-26 05:01:48 <gmaxwell> torokun: its potentially a problem if most of the end users are on SPV wallets AND mining is very centeralized.
 329 2014-07-26 05:01:58 <wumpus> but a few full nodes can serve lots of SPV nodes
 330 2014-07-26 05:02:09 <wumpus> mining centralization is a bigger issue
 331 2014-07-26 05:02:26 <wumpus> it's much more difficult to spin up a mining farm than a full node
 332 2014-07-26 05:02:30 <gmaxwell> Since at the limit of those trends the properties that made bitcoin intially attractive break down— e.g. miners could inflate the currency. Though there are some technical tools that could be deployed to improve that.
 333 2014-07-26 05:02:48 <torokun> So to come full circle, it would be nice if there were an incentive to run full nodes, I think.  If it were as easy as using the reference client, and it were not a big chore to d/l the block chain, we'd naturally have many people running full nodes, just as torrents have lots of peers.
 334 2014-07-26 05:03:12 johnsoft has joined
 335 2014-07-26 05:03:44 <wumpus> torokun: well making it easier to run a full node is always welcome, but what do you think is the complicated part at this point?
 336 2014-07-26 05:04:02 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yes but the proliferation of full nodes bounds the potential dishonesty of miners— with lots of full node miners dishonest options are mostly limited to censorship and outright theft by doublespending their own transactions; if SPV nodes are overwhelmingly common and no form of fraud proof is introduced, then miners get the ability to inflate and the ability to steal coins from users (e.g. inactive ones that might not complain).
 337 2014-07-26 05:04:19 <gmaxwell> torokun: sure help to make the costs of running a full node lower would be welcome!
 338 2014-07-26 05:04:44 <torokun> I don't think it's complicated, just takes too long to d/l the block chain, and potentially, dare I say, a lot of space for some machines.
 339 2014-07-26 05:04:55 <gmaxwell> torokun: it's already as simple as starting the reference software... though there is lots of room to make it less resource intensive and useful is less time.
 340 2014-07-26 05:05:12 <wumpus> torokun: the idea is that you download the sofware, install it, and start running it and you can ignore it from then on
 341 2014-07-26 05:05:28 <wumpus> torokun: that it takes time to download the block chain isn't even that relevant, although speeding it up is of course still nice
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 343 2014-07-26 05:05:55 <gmaxwell> torokun: Well it currently requires about $1 in disk space... so, well there are huge asymptotic improvements we can make to that which are mostly implemented already, but if $1 in disk space is too much, then perhaps that user shouldn't b.e
 344 2014-07-26 05:06:05 <wumpus> torokun: anyhow, if you want to do work in that direction that'd be very welcome, you could start with testing sipa's headers-only patch
 345 2014-07-26 05:06:07 <gmaxwell> and as wumpus notes, if its setup well it doesn't matter how long it takes.
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 347 2014-07-26 05:06:53 <torokun> Would it be possible to make the reference client immediately useful by including the block chain data pre-processed in the binaries provided for download?  Then a user could start running it while it downloads and verifies the real block chain in the background over time.
 348 2014-07-26 05:06:58 <wumpus> torokun: after that is in, it's would be possible to integrate bandwidth limiting/quotas
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 350 2014-07-26 05:07:22 <Blxjander> wumpus: well I just assigned off a 60GB partition for use as a BlockChain storage area...I think that should be a decent amount of HDD space for now at least
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 352 2014-07-26 05:07:57 <wumpus> torokun:  you still have to download and verify all the data before it is running, no matter how you download it
 353 2014-07-26 05:08:24 <gmaxwell> torokun: thats not really helpful... There are better ways to be immediately useful. doing that would further obfscuate the security model and put the people distributing the software at increased risk of coercion.
 354 2014-07-26 05:08:39 <torokun> gmaxwell - true.
 355 2014-07-26 05:08:45 <gmaxwell> headers first patch gives you headers level (e.g. SPV like) validation within a minute after startup in any case.
 356 2014-07-26 05:08:47 <wumpus> torokun: anyhow, as said, there isn't really a hurry in making a node 'useful'
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 358 2014-07-26 05:09:24 <wumpus> speed is not more important than security here
 359 2014-07-26 05:10:18 <wumpus> torokun: as said, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4468 may already do what you want, see the sync times there
 360 2014-07-26 05:10:50 <torokun> I will take a look at that - thanks.
 361 2014-07-26 05:11:13 <jcorgan> wumpus: 100 min from scratch over GbE and .bitcoin on RAID5 :)
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 363 2014-07-26 05:11:30 <gmaxwell> andytosh was saying that his non-script-validating rust implementation of bitcoin sync over the network from a local node in 30 minutes, so clearly there is plenty of room for improvement.
 364 2014-07-26 05:11:32 <torokun> I used to do a lot of cpp development but haven't for quite a while, and it's tough to get the time to grok significant portions of the code.
 365 2014-07-26 05:11:34 <wumpus> jcorgan: from the internet or local nodes?
 366 2014-07-26 05:11:38 <jcorgan> local
 367 2014-07-26 05:11:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, just a thought, we might as well ship the reference client with the the headers for all the blocks under the checkpoint
 368 2014-07-26 05:11:50 <gmaxwell> torokun: without the GUI bitcoind is only ~30kloc. It is not a huge program.
 369 2014-07-26 05:11:53 <jcorgan> well, internet mixed in, but i'm sure it was mostly from the locals
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 371 2014-07-26 05:12:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell: non-validating it would be just like a file transfer, so it makes sense you can do it in 30 minutes with a fast network and disk
 372 2014-07-26 05:13:04 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure, well, I'm going to propose at some point that we make an "irrelevant hardfork" to up the minimum difficulty to 2^32. (e.g. 64 bits of zeros). Packing up the grandfathered headers there would likely make sense, sipa has header compression down to about 38 bytes per header.
 373 2014-07-26 05:13:08 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, uh no since you dont know the block hashes in advance
 374 2014-07-26 05:13:12 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: why? downloading the headers is fast
 375 2014-07-26 05:13:22 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it validates everything but scripts
 376 2014-07-26 05:13:26 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, getheaders is limited to 2k for some reason
 377 2014-07-26 05:13:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: all the block header rules, spendness checks, hashes, etc.  he just hasn't written the script engine yet.
 378 2014-07-26 05:13:59 CoinHeavy has joined
 379 2014-07-26 05:14:04 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: we're trying to reduce hardcoded data like the checkpoints, not include more
 380 2014-07-26 05:14:12 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: but really at worse that saves you only about a minute, so ::shrugs::
 381 2014-07-26 05:14:27 <gmaxwell> wumpus: validated preload isn't quite the same as hardcoded data.
 382 2014-07-26 05:14:40 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I still don't really like it
 383 2014-07-26 05:15:23 <wumpus> for a SPV client it makes sense to hardcode that data to get up and running fast, but for a node full validation is more important than a bit of speed, we're not aiming for close to those times
 384 2014-07-26 05:15:28 banghouse has joined
 385 2014-07-26 05:15:49 <gmaxwell> Full agreement, I'm not sure how best to deal with the orphan flooding attacks though— headers first increases their costs 12500 fold, but they're still a bit too cheap for comfort. Upping a minimum difficulty to 2^32 would close them off, but we need some way to handle the grandfathered blocks.
 386 2014-07-26 05:18:11 Knuk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 387 2014-07-26 05:19:41 <torokun> Well, you're already providing a torrent of most of the block chain.  What would be the issue with providing a package that includes the blockchain up to a certain checkpoint?
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 389 2014-07-26 05:20:24 <kazcw> that's basically what the torrent is
 390 2014-07-26 05:20:28 <gmaxwell> torokun: the torrent gets validated, and the torrent should be compltely unnecessary (slower than a network download) with the headers first patches that we're suggesting you try out.
 391 2014-07-26 05:20:42 sabfer has joined
 392 2014-07-26 05:20:44 <torokun> huh.
 393 2014-07-26 05:20:53 <torokun> that's cool.
 394 2014-07-26 05:21:10 jps has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 395 2014-07-26 05:21:35 <gmaxwell> (slower because when you're using it you cannot overlap importing and downloading, also some advantages from bitcoin's data already being authenticated saving some redundant hashing)
 396 2014-07-26 05:21:52 sabfer has quit (Client Quit)
 397 2014-07-26 05:23:06 <jcorgan> i've been running the headersfirst8 branch on it's own, merged into master, combined with addrindex, and with a couple other wip branches i have, with zero issues in compile or runtime that i can tell.  i haven't tried reindexing, though.
 398 2014-07-26 05:24:01 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 399 2014-07-26 05:24:23 <gmaxwell> reindexing is broken for a node synced initially on headers first right now
 400 2014-07-26 05:24:32 richcollins has joined
 401 2014-07-26 05:24:36 <gmaxwell> because headers first will result in blocks out of order on disk and reindex can't handle it.
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 403 2014-07-26 05:24:54 <jcorgan> thought that was case
 404 2014-07-26 05:24:56 <jcorgan> the case
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 407 2014-07-26 05:25:42 <gmaxwell> I haven't had time to do ~much~ testing since the first round, but I have kept a node up running in valgrind with sipa's latest version.
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 419 2014-07-26 05:57:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, can still validate the block headers provided
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 427 2014-07-26 06:12:07 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: you could add bootstrap_headers.dat functionality
 428 2014-07-26 06:12:59 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: just like bootstrap.dat it'd read the file at start, except expect blocks it expects just headers
 429 2014-07-26 06:13:16 <wumpus> *instead of expecting blocks
 430 2014-07-26 06:14:20 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, yeah same idea
 431 2014-07-26 06:15:15 <wumpus> I suspect the gain compared to headers-first from the network is minimal, but if you want to try it out why not
 432 2014-07-26 06:17:23 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, it's relatively small, but the limit on getheaders is the only reason it takes 1 minute
 433 2014-07-26 06:17:31 <phantomcircuit> that should really have been much much higher...
 434 2014-07-26 06:17:55 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: meh, hardly matters, and it avoids monopolizing peers too much.
 435 2014-07-26 06:18:12 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, headers are almost always entirely in memory
 436 2014-07-26 06:18:33 <phantomcircuit> given that getdata has a *much* larger impact
 437 2014-07-26 06:18:36 <phantomcircuit> it's a bit silly
 438 2014-07-26 06:19:03 <wumpus> in the current implementations they are, although it's not clear they will always be
 439 2014-07-26 06:19:30 <gmaxwell> due to varrious overheads they're responsible for a non-trivial amount of memory already.
 440 2014-07-26 06:20:29 orperelman has joined
 441 2014-07-26 06:20:53 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, at the very least they will probably always been in the page cache
 442 2014-07-26 06:21:03 ThomasV has joined
 443 2014-07-26 06:21:08 <wumpus> could be...
 444 2014-07-26 06:21:22 <gmaxwell> in any case, kinda optimization without a point.
 445 2014-07-26 06:21:26 <wumpus> exactly
 446 2014-07-26 06:21:48 <wumpus> ideally, optmization starts with profiling to find out where the problems are
 447 2014-07-26 06:22:29 <gmaxwell> I could see bundling them for the anti-flooding, but thats another pinning thing which we don't like. (in particular because it helps confuse people about the security model, and waste everyone's time with misguided proposals)
 448 2014-07-26 06:22:34 <phantomcircuit> for spv clients currently the bottleneck is getting headers
 449 2014-07-26 06:22:38 <phantomcircuit> which is dominated by latency
 450 2014-07-26 06:22:50 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes, sure, different argument for a spv client.
 451 2014-07-26 06:24:03 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: spv clients already optimize for that
 452 2014-07-26 06:24:23 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: for example, by hardcoding a list of block hashes, and requesting only headers from the point that the wallet was born
 453 2014-07-26 06:24:38 <wumpus> or the approximate point
 454 2014-07-26 06:25:15 <wumpus> the constraints for mobile SPV wallets are just very different
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 695 2014-07-26 14:27:11 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell, cfields: ping RE https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4332
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 698 2014-07-26 14:27:38 <jgarzik> One of bitcoin-tx goals is to provide a usable example for library-ification
 699 2014-07-26 14:27:49 <sipa> jgarzik: will review this weekend
 700 2014-07-26 14:31:23 <Luke-Jr> I suppose we're not far enough along that it could have its own independent repo
 701 2014-07-26 14:31:43 <Luke-Jr> (library-ification)
 702 2014-07-26 14:31:50 <sipa> one step at a time :)
 703 2014-07-26 14:32:42 <Luke-Jr> actually… I wonder if it's possible to make it so people can just git clone dependent programs inside the BCCore root?
 704 2014-07-26 14:32:48 <Luke-Jr> ie, get automake to scan subdirectories
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 711 2014-07-26 14:43:51 <cfields> jgarzik: pong
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 713 2014-07-26 14:45:19 <cfields> wumpus: ping re pull-tester stuff
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 716 2014-07-26 14:47:02 <cfields> sipa: thanks for getting those PRs in quickly, that helps a bunch to cut down on forked crap i have to keep up with
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 718 2014-07-26 14:48:40 <Luke-Jr> cfields: thoughts on scanning subdirectories for other projects?
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 720 2014-07-26 14:49:22 <cfields> Luke-Jr: if we're talking about the same thing, see the libsecp256k1 PR as an example
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 724 2014-07-26 14:49:28 <cfields> it's hacked together, but it works
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 727 2014-07-26 14:49:59 <Luke-Jr> cfields: I was thinking more like git clone bitcoin-tx into the BCCore parent directory, and it automatically builds it
 728 2014-07-26 14:50:09 <Luke-Jr> without having bitcoin-tx specific code in BCCore itself
 729 2014-07-26 14:50:59 <cfields> from a project management pov, i'd say that's not a good idea
 730 2014-07-26 14:51:05 <cfields> if core relies on it, that is
 731 2014-07-26 14:51:17 <sipa> well that would only be for optional components
 732 2014-07-26 14:51:17 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't, I think
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 734 2014-07-26 14:51:31 <Luke-Jr> cfields: bitcoin-tx is basically a program using BCCore code as a library
 735 2014-07-26 14:51:55 <cfields> mm, imo that's a step in the wrong direction
 736 2014-07-26 14:52:02 <cfields> not to say it's not worth doing as a stop-gap...
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 738 2014-07-26 14:52:08 <cfields> but i'd rather put effort into moving the other way
 739 2014-07-26 14:52:12 <Luke-Jr> it's not ideal, but it means it could have its own repository from the start
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 741 2014-07-26 14:52:21 <Luke-Jr> which could later be made to use libs properly
 742 2014-07-26 14:52:37 <sipa> of course, there's no reason why you couldn't clone bitcoin-tx into a subdir, and it builds the parent dir's stuff as necessary
 743 2014-07-26 14:52:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that's a point
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 746 2014-07-26 14:53:06 <Luke-Jr> actually, BFGMiner does basically that with ccan
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 748 2014-07-26 14:53:20 <Luke-Jr> (it clones ccan into a subdirectory, then builds only the parts of it used)
 749 2014-07-26 14:53:59 <sipa> i really dislike automatially fetching code from elsewhere
 750 2014-07-26 14:54:13 <Luke-Jr> define automatically
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 753 2014-07-26 14:54:58 <sipa> by anything in-repo, really
 754 2014-07-26 14:55:20 <sipa> it's useful in a convenience script to build a bunch of stuff, but i don't think code in repository X should have any mechanism of fetching other code over the network
 755 2014-07-26 14:55:52 <Luke-Jr> that's the logical step before having a fully separate library *shrug*
 756 2014-07-26 14:56:17 <cfields> agreed, that's what i meant by "bad from a pm pov"
 757 2014-07-26 14:56:27 <cfields> leads to a new breed of problems/dev error
 758 2014-07-26 14:57:17 <cfields> git submodules come close to acceptable behavior, unfortunately the implementation is terrible
 759 2014-07-26 14:58:01 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I wish they'd fix the sharp edges :/
 760 2014-07-26 14:58:16 <Luke-Jr> always annoying to have to watch out for accidentally committing a submodule change with commit -a
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 762 2014-07-26 14:59:44 <cfields> personally, i use the fact that the pros (git, android's "repo", etc) haven't figured out how to do it nicely, as a reminder that anything home-brewed is very unlikely to work well
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 766 2014-07-26 15:01:35 <jrick> wumpus, HaltingState: I'm not aware of any wallets using it yet but btcd does support 70002 now and clients can use the bloom package (https://github.com/conformal/btcutil/tree/master/bloom) along with btcwire to implement a SPV wallet
 767 2014-07-26 15:02:01 <Luke-Jr> in theory we could just build ~everything as a .so regardless of the ABI breakages every version
 768 2014-07-26 15:02:36 <Luke-Jr> (that's why libtool versioning exists)
 769 2014-07-26 15:03:11 <jrick> er, 70002 was reject
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 779 2014-07-26 15:17:35 <jcorgan> in net.cpp, L1857, there is a magic number 10000, what is the basis for it?
 780 2014-07-26 15:17:36 <jcorgan> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp#L1857
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 782 2014-07-26 15:22:39 <Guest83207> jcorgan: it's just reserving space to avoid repeated reallocations
 783 2014-07-26 15:23:02 <Guest83207> 10kb seems good enough?
 784 2014-07-26 15:23:05 <jcorgan> i already understand why it's done, wondering about the choice of 10k
 785 2014-07-26 15:23:20 <jcorgan> "seems good enough" is not a sound engineering design principle :)
 786 2014-07-26 15:25:29 <jcorgan> it's minor but i'm implementing similar logic in a branch i'm working on and hate to just copy that line without understanding the basis of it.
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 788 2014-07-26 15:26:00 <Guest83207> that's probably all the thought that went into this, or needs to
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 790 2014-07-26 15:26:44 <jcorgan> sure, no worries then
 791 2014-07-26 15:26:58 <Guest83207> a better choice probably would have been 4k if the allocator is smart about page allocation tricks
 792 2014-07-26 15:28:00 <sipa> jcorgan: it's been there since the satoshi days
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 794 2014-07-26 15:28:23 <sipa> it probably doesn't make all that much difference
 795 2014-07-26 15:28:29 <jcorgan> right
 796 2014-07-26 15:28:34 <sipa> most transactions are below 1 kB, afaik
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 798 2014-07-26 15:29:16 <jcorgan> sorry to stir things up on such a small detail, just being cautious
 799 2014-07-26 15:29:54 <sipa> it may even be more efficient to call GetSerializeSize on the transaction before allocating that buffer
 800 2014-07-26 15:33:29 <jcorgan> while were on the subject, is there a way to go directly from a filled CDataStream to an arbitrary buffer without creating, say, a vector and using &[0] ?
 801 2014-07-26 15:34:05 <sipa> &ss[0] ?
 802 2014-07-26 15:34:52 <sipa> or ss.begin()
 803 2014-07-26 15:34:57 * jcorgan hangs head in shame
 804 2014-07-26 15:35:09 <jcorgan> i've been treating ss as an opaque blob
 805 2014-07-26 15:35:20 <sipa> it works very much like a vector already
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 807 2014-07-26 15:35:48 <jcorgan> good to know, thanks
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 809 2014-07-26 15:37:56 <jcorgan> ah, just calling std::vector methods on ss works perfectly and simplifies the code, thanks
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 912 2014-07-26 18:27:11 * Luke-Jr gives a wtf look at cfields <.<
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 966 2014-07-26 19:29:02 <the8thbit> Hi there
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 971 2014-07-26 19:35:05 <the8thbit> I'm trying to create a block explorer type application for an obscure cryptocurrency and I'd like to know the best way to go about doing that. Right now I'm looking at taking the cryptocoin node.js modules and modifying them to add in support for the coin I'm targeting, but I'm not sure exactly where to start with that.
 972 2014-07-26 19:35:18 orperelman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 973 2014-07-26 19:35:30 <the8thbit> I'm not sure if the cryptocoin modules even interact with the blockchain at all
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 975 2014-07-26 19:38:30 <the8thbit> really, what I need is just to be able to send commands to the rpc wallet software and receive output from within node.js
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 977 2014-07-26 19:40:55 <mappum> the8thbit: for that part, use this: git@github.com:jb55/node-bitcoin.git
 978 2014-07-26 19:40:59 <mappum> https://github.com/jb55/node-bitcoin
 979 2014-07-26 19:41:44 <mappum> the rpc stuff should be the same on any altcoind, but they might have changed the port
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 986 2014-07-26 19:45:54 <mappum> btw, people don't like if you talk about altcoins in this channel, maybe we should move into #altcoin
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 988 2014-07-26 19:46:32 <mappum> or ##altcoin-dev
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 990 2014-07-26 19:49:43 <the8thbit> mappum: Thank you. I didn't know of a better place to ask
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1051 2014-07-26 21:07:01 <md2k7> I'm trying to call getblock via JSON interface on an orphaned block (height 311023, hash 00000000000000001fe002705867108b54e4f532f78358040c7d2c0e6611a24e)
1052 2014-07-26 21:07:06 <md2k7> however, I get {u'message': u'Block not found', u'code': -5}
1053 2014-07-26 21:07:48 <md2k7> are orphaned blocks removed from the local database?
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1057 2014-07-26 21:08:17 <sipa> assuming you're talking about stale branches of the blockchain, no
1058 2014-07-26 21:08:22 <sipa> but it may be that your node never saw them
1059 2014-07-26 21:08:46 <md2k7> "never saw them".. oh right!
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1061 2014-07-26 21:09:07 <md2k7> so bitcoin usually requests blocks it needs, but not in this case, because nothing "builds on top of it"?
1062 2014-07-26 21:10:07 <sipa> there is no consistency across the network about which blocks you see
1063 2014-07-26 21:10:40 <sipa> bitcoin propagates its own best chain, but there can be (temporary) differences between which chain different nodes consider best
1064 2014-07-26 21:10:41 <md2k7> can I make my bitcoind request it from its peers? did I do so by calling the JSON API?
1065 2014-07-26 21:10:46 <sipa> no
1066 2014-07-26 21:11:03 <sipa> it's likely that none of your peers saw this block either
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1069 2014-07-26 21:12:49 <sipa> in case there are 2 +- simultaneous blocks found on the network, the peers closest to the miner of A will switch to (and relay) block A
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1071 2014-07-26 21:12:56 <sipa> those closest to B will switch to block B
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1074 2014-07-26 21:13:26 <md2k7> so basically first received valid block is being used?
1075 2014-07-26 21:13:36 <sipa> there will be some 'boundary' of nodes on the network that hear about both, but saw A or B first, and therefor stuck with A or B
1076 2014-07-26 21:14:04 <sipa> then for example A is extended first, by a node in the area of the network that considered A valid
1077 2014-07-26 21:14:24 <md2k7> ... and then everyone has to switch
1078 2014-07-26 21:14:32 <md2k7> (on B)
1079 2014-07-26 21:14:49 <md2k7> (from B, onto A, because that's now longer)
1080 2014-07-26 21:14:55 <md2k7> correct?
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1082 2014-07-26 21:16:34 <sipa> at which point that successor is indeed relayed, reaches the boundary, and as A+successor is better than just B, they switch, and propagate across the boundary, and the same thing happens for all nodes in the originally-B area
1083 2014-07-26 21:16:56 <sipa> but if you were in the A side initially, you will never have seen B
1084 2014-07-26 21:17:14 <md2k7> thanks sipa
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1086 2014-07-26 21:17:42 <md2k7> actually I was trying to figure out some implementation quirk in the electrum server (which builds its own index of unspent money), so I pulled its index from my server
1087 2014-07-26 21:18:12 <md2k7> apparently I don't (locally) have the same orphaned block that it has indexed
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1092 2014-07-26 21:18:29 <md2k7> it's now trying to reverse its index by getting that block - which fails
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1100 2014-07-26 21:21:45 <md2k7> It should probably store blocks itself, to be able to reverse
1101 2014-07-26 21:22:08 <kazcw> md2k7: my node has that block. it's too big to pastebin, but if you need it I could email it to you or something
1102 2014-07-26 21:25:38 <md2k7> hmm, I realized actually my own server has it as well
1103 2014-07-26 21:25:47 <md2k7> so thanks for the offer anyway :)
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1115 2014-07-26 21:33:44 <kazcw> md2k7: are you just looking at the index for science, or trying to use the same electrum index with a different bitcoin node?
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1120 2014-07-26 21:39:32 <md2k7> well I was actually trying to figure out this: http://pastebin.com/s66HS80L (electrum server seems to have crashed on a block reorg)
1121 2014-07-26 21:39:54 <md2k7> so I figured I could reproduce it locally by using the same index
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1124 2014-07-26 21:40:24 <md2k7> I have bitcoin locally as well, but apparently the index differs
1125 2014-07-26 21:40:35 <md2k7> (bitcoind's index now)
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1127 2014-07-26 21:43:44 <kazcw> md2k7: have you tried connecting the local electrum-server to the remote bitcoind?
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1131 2014-07-26 21:46:22 <md2k7> kazcw: thank you for such an obvious solution :)
1132 2014-07-26 21:47:04 <md2k7> anyway, the reversal code in electrum-server seems very weird, I don't think this is something that people test often
1133 2014-07-26 21:47:27 <kazcw> heh, that sounds foreboding
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1192 2014-07-26 22:53:27 <gmaxwell> oops. listsinceblock <block> 6   also returns all the -1 confirm txn in my wallet
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1195 2014-07-26 22:57:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hm, probably should do -1 ones that have been conflicted since the block at least
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1208 2014-07-26 23:19:11 <dgenr8> sipa: excellent description of a 50% split situation... and that doesn't destroy bitcoin? ;)
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1213 2014-07-26 23:21:32 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: it's not "split" it just isn't consistent yet, it will be eventually (with the next block with exponential probablity)
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1217 2014-07-26 23:24:12 <dgenr8> indeed
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1226 2014-07-26 23:25:55 <sipa> nodes can disagree about which chain they consider active
1227 2014-07-26 23:26:05 <sipa> they can't disagree about whether the blocks in those chains are valid or not
1228 2014-07-26 23:26:26 <dgenr8> yes.  it's beautiful
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