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  66 2014-07-27 01:26:00 <CryptoHustla> #nxt-dev
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 130 2014-07-27 03:25:34 <CryptoHustla> Can the testnet really be restarted?
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 132 2014-07-27 03:25:57 <SomeoneWeird> sure, it's been done before
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 134 2014-07-27 03:26:36 <CryptoHustla> whos in controll of that?
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 138 2014-07-27 03:36:34 <Luke-Jr> CryptoHustla: the dev team
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 182 2014-07-27 04:46:06 <ahmed_> Hi. Could someone here advise me on how to calculate hashrate?
 183 2014-07-27 04:46:27 <ahmed_> my figures always end up way off (currently its 3x under what its supposed to be)
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 469 2014-07-27 09:54:03 <mn3monic> hi, what's the prefix for an hash160 to extract a base58 testnet p2sh addr? for mainnet, using pycoin's hash160_sec_to_bitcoin_address, I append b'\5' as prefix, any help is appreciated, thank you.
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 503 2014-07-27 10:29:13 <gmaxwell> Anyone care to check if their IPv4 reachable nodes are connected to 128.8.124.51 ?
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 507 2014-07-27 10:29:50 <wumpus> mine's not
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 523 2014-07-27 10:59:34 <Jouke_> gmaxwell: I just checked one node, but it is not connected to that IP
 524 2014-07-27 11:01:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: mine's not
 525 2014-07-27 11:01:19 <gmaxwell> Thanks.
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 634 2014-07-27 14:20:14 <jgarzik> cfields, if you have an extra time lying around, https://github.com/jgarzik/moxiebox configure.ac and C++ code could use some criticism
 635 2014-07-27 14:20:33 <jgarzik> *some extra time
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 640 2014-07-27 14:22:09 <jgarzik> wallet42, can you fix your IRC software?
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 650 2014-07-27 14:58:58 <cfields> jgarzik: i suppose the moxie toolchain doesn't have a recognized triplet?
 651 2014-07-27 14:59:22 <cfields> if not, you might consider adding one upstream
 652 2014-07-27 14:59:42 <cfields> ah, it does :)
 653 2014-07-27 14:59:56 <jgarzik> cfields, that's in flux
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 656 2014-07-27 15:00:20 <cfields> jgarzik: in a freshly cloned config.sub, i see an entry for moxie
 657 2014-07-27 15:00:28 <jgarzik> cfields, I use --target=moxie-elf but the moxie author is in the process of adding a --target=moxiebox-$something entry
 658 2014-07-27 15:00:49 <cfields> ah, ok
 659 2014-07-27 15:01:17 <jgarzik> cfields, if you're building gcc, you want --enable-languages=c and --disable-libssp
 660 2014-07-27 15:01:19 <cfields> jgarzik: fyi, target should only be used when building the toolchain itself
 661 2014-07-27 15:01:27 <jgarzik> cfields, correct
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 663 2014-07-27 15:01:39 <cfields> it can lead to weird problems otherwise
 664 2014-07-27 15:01:47 <cfields> jgarzik: ah, we may be talking about different things...
 665 2014-07-27 15:01:59 <jgarzik> cfields, it leads directly to not working, if you are talking about moxiebox's configure ;0
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 667 2014-07-27 15:02:08 <jgarzik> cfields, moxiebox is effectively multi-target
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 669 2014-07-27 15:02:36 <jgarzik> cfields, most code is built for target=$host, but some code is built for target=moxie-elf
 670 2014-07-27 15:02:38 <cfields> jgarzik: i was saying, with proper config.guess/sub support, you shouldn't need the MOX_GCC and friends in moxiebox
 671 2014-07-27 15:02:40 <jgarzik> cfields, a bit strange
 672 2014-07-27 15:03:07 <jgarzik> cfields, not so sure about that.......
 673 2014-07-27 15:03:13 <jgarzik> cfields, multi-target is a strange beast
 674 2014-07-27 15:03:43 <cfields> jgarzik: you mean it builds tools/libs for the builder and the host?
 675 2014-07-27 15:04:11 <jgarzik> cfields, "sandbox" is target=$host.  "libsandboxrt.a" is target=moxie-elf.
 676 2014-07-27 15:04:26 <jgarzik> cfields, the runtime and the tests are always target=moxie-elf
 677 2014-07-27 15:04:32 <cfields> jgarzik: ok
 678 2014-07-27 15:04:51 <jgarzik> cfields, that's why runtime/Makefile.am specifies dependencies manually etc.
 679 2014-07-27 15:04:57 <cfields> jgarzik: let me clarify a few things.. mostly stupid details, but they have specific meanings in this case
 680 2014-07-27 15:05:30 <cfields> host is the triplet that runs the binaries. in 99% of cases, host=target. the exception is when creating the toolchain itself
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 683 2014-07-27 15:05:43 <cfields> so above, when you're saying host=target, i assume you mean build=host
 684 2014-07-27 15:06:06 <cfields> build=box you're building on. host = where binaries run. target = what binaries produce machine code for
 685 2014-07-27 15:06:30 <cfields> second, to solve that problem, CC_FOR_BUILD or so is usually used
 686 2014-07-27 15:06:55 <cfields> so that you can use --host=moxie-whatever, and not confuse the build-system with the build binaries
 687 2014-07-27 15:07:25 <jgarzik> cfields, OK, given that terminology, sandbox is multi-host
 688 2014-07-27 15:07:31 <jgarzik> cfields, so that won't work ;p
 689 2014-07-27 15:07:37 <cfields> heh, ok
 690 2014-07-27 15:07:55 <cfields> (not trying to be pedantic, just making sure we're speaking the same language since there are specific meanings involved)
 691 2014-07-27 15:08:01 <jgarzik> cfields, runtime and tests are always moxie-elf binaries
 692 2014-07-27 15:08:16 <jgarzik> cfields, "sandbox" binary is whatever arch you want to run it on
 693 2014-07-27 15:09:07 <j0b> so im trying to find the maximum size of OP_RETURN in the src.. and may i ask what is appropiate usage of it?
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 696 2014-07-27 15:09:20 <jgarzik> cfields, ...and let's move this discussion to #bitcoin-wizards please
 697 2014-07-27 15:09:25 <cfields> sure
 698 2014-07-27 15:09:53 <jgarzik> j0b, grep for OP_SMALLDATA (or OP_SMALL_DATA, I forget)
 699 2014-07-27 15:10:05 <jgarzik> j0b, the limit is the size of a transaction, which is 1MB IIRC
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 701 2014-07-27 15:10:23 <j0b> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
 702 2014-07-27 15:10:25 <j0b> hm
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 706 2014-07-27 15:12:02 <j0b> jgarzik: ok, thx mate
 707 2014-07-27 15:12:35 <sipa> j0b: for the consensus rule, or for standardness?
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 709 2014-07-27 15:13:46 <sipa> standardness allows a single OP_RETURN output, with at most a 40-byte push
 710 2014-07-27 15:14:39 <sipa> consensus rules allow any OP_RETURN, with any size of script, though individual data pushes are limited to 520 byte
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 713 2014-07-27 15:15:29 <j0b> sipa: and if you want to store <= 100 byte? trying to see what it can be used for.
 714 2014-07-27 15:15:50 <sipa> j0b: if it's less than 40 bytes, use OP_RETURN; otherwise, please just don't
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 716 2014-07-27 15:16:02 <j0b> allthough, im not that big fan of storing data on blockchain
 717 2014-07-27 15:16:42 <j0b> has there been any talk about paralell blockchains?
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 719 2014-07-27 15:17:01 <j0b> that can be announced separately within the network
 720 2014-07-27 15:17:19 <sipa> to serve which purpose?
 721 2014-07-27 15:18:01 <j0b> additional currencys, like zerocoin blocks
 722 2014-07-27 15:18:44 <sipa> why not on a separate network?
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 724 2014-07-27 15:19:25 <sipa> not everyone will care about such blocks, so restrict the propagation to those who do
 725 2014-07-27 15:20:19 <j0b> sipa: since its quite heavy processing for zerocoin minting.. and you might not want to use zerocoin every time you want to do a transaction
 726 2014-07-27 15:20:44 <sipa> i don't understand what that has to do with it
 727 2014-07-27 15:20:59 <sipa> you can create wallet software which supports both networks
 728 2014-07-27 15:21:06 <sipa> if there's a need for that
 729 2014-07-27 15:21:28 <j0b> why build a paralellel network?
 730 2014-07-27 15:21:29 <j0b> :)
 731 2014-07-27 15:22:06 <sipa> because bitcoin nodes don't care about that data
 732 2014-07-27 15:22:21 <sipa> it would add extra cost for them (badnwidth, storage, cpu), without benefit
 733 2014-07-27 15:22:29 <j0b> indeed
 734 2014-07-27 15:22:52 <j0b> but this is not for the bitcoin network
 735 2014-07-27 15:23:13 <sipa> then don't do it on the bitcoin network
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 746 2014-07-27 15:44:15 <jgarzik> sipa, RE "Suggest other syntax: load=file:FILE. "file:X" is never valid JSON anyway." https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4332/files#r15439861
 747 2014-07-27 15:44:32 <jgarzik> sipa, not sure you understood the syntax (my fault for not giving better comments etc.)
 748 2014-07-27 15:44:44 <jgarzik> sipa, you need both key ("NAME") and value ("FILE")
 749 2014-07-27 15:45:17 <jgarzik> sipa, thus, on the command line, you may manually specify
 750 2014-07-27 15:45:37 <sipa> uh, i mean NAME=file:FILE
 751 2014-07-27 15:45:39 <jgarzik> "privatekeys={\"foo\":blahblah,\"var\":12313}"
 752 2014-07-27 15:45:58 <jgarzik> or load.privatekeys=$filename
 753 2014-07-27 15:46:10 <jgarzik> sipa, OK, that makes more sense
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 758 2014-07-27 15:47:08 <jgarzik> sipa, hrm, though on second thought, the logic of "if not a command, set a register" could be less ambiguous if there was
 759 2014-07-27 15:47:11 <jgarzik> set.NAME=VALUE
 760 2014-07-27 15:47:19 <jgarzik> load.NAME=$filename
 761 2014-07-27 15:47:34 <sipa> that's very unintuitive, imho :)
 762 2014-07-27 15:47:42 <sipa> but i'm nitpicking
 763 2014-07-27 15:48:09 <jgarzik> could file.NAME=$filename
 764 2014-07-27 15:48:16 <sipa> as other commands follow the COMMAND=PARAMS style
 765 2014-07-27 15:48:33 <sipa> perhaps set=NAME:VALUE and load=NAME:FILE ?
 766 2014-07-27 15:48:45 <jgarzik> sipa, I like that
 767 2014-07-27 15:49:15 <sipa> so those become regular commands, that can be processing by the same interface as the others
 768 2014-07-27 15:49:21 <jgarzik> +1
 769 2014-07-27 15:49:40 <jgarzik> it's still processed by the same interface... just separated in --help output
 770 2014-07-27 15:49:53 <jgarzik> the separation was largely for explanatory purposes
 771 2014-07-27 15:50:16 <sipa> ah, good
 772 2014-07-27 15:50:24 <sipa> no problem keeping that separated in help output
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 782 2014-07-27 16:14:54 <jgarzik> very odd
 783 2014-07-27 16:14:59 <jgarzik> mapArgs suddenly stopped working
 784 2014-07-27 16:16:21 <sipa> ?
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 788 2014-07-27 16:21:33 <jgarzik> sipa, no, my bug.  was looking for mapArgs.count("--help")
 789 2014-07-27 16:21:38 <jgarzik> one too many dashes
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 796 2014-07-27 16:33:11 <sipa> jgarzik: is it your birthday?
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 798 2014-07-27 16:35:26 <jgarzik> sipa, turned 40 "recently"
 799 2014-07-27 16:35:49 <sipa> well, happy recent 0x28'th birthday then!
 800 2014-07-27 16:36:02 <sipa> (0x28 looks so much better, doesn't it?)
 801 2014-07-27 16:37:12 <jcorgan> i guess that makes me 0x2f
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 803 2014-07-27 16:38:02 <sipa> 0x1d here :)
 804 2014-07-27 16:46:26 <iwilcox> Count it in drops of pitch from the pitch drop experiment, which are ~every 10y, then you're only 4 drops old.  Or 1 leap drop old :)
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 806 2014-07-27 16:49:03 <Luke-Jr> really, the package manager should just be part of gitian..
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 808 2014-07-27 16:51:47 <jgarzik> sipa, BlueMatt, cfields: pull tester out of space again.  what's the way to solve that permanently?  We could copy+publish job results off-machine, if increasing disk space is onerous?
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 810 2014-07-27 16:52:02 <jgarzik> shove them to amazon s3, delete after 30 days
 811 2014-07-27 16:52:37 <cfields> jgarzik: see #4592 for my suggested pull-tester replacement
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 813 2014-07-27 16:54:58 <Luke-Jr> (and turning Bitcoin Core into a package manager and OS in itself, sigh)
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 815 2014-07-27 16:57:00 <cfields> Luke-Jr: i'm not going to argue with you anymore. I don't agree with the points you're (not) making. If the others agree with your sentiments, then as always, I'll back down.
 816 2014-07-27 16:57:53 <sipa> having that functionality inside gitian is equally fine to me
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 818 2014-07-27 16:58:00 <sipa> and admittedly more reusable
 819 2014-07-27 16:58:22 <sipa> but gitian already needs some many wrapper scripts to make it work, meh
 820 2014-07-27 16:59:44 <Luke-Jr> even actual package managers don't try to put all their packages in the same repository.
 821 2014-07-27 17:00:19 <Luke-Jr> if gitian needs to be replaced, so be it. but there's no reason to tie it to BCCore like this
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 833 2014-07-27 17:13:59 <Luke-Jr> cfields: btw, you sound to be confusing releases with binaries.
 834 2014-07-27 17:14:36 <Luke-Jr> releases are code/tags. binaries are just a convenience for those too lazy to build it themselves.
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 839 2014-07-27 17:24:35 <cfields> Luke-Jr: if that were the case, we'd let the distros handle our releases rather than actively trying to get them not to.
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 843 2014-07-27 17:25:11 <Luke-Jr> cfields: letting distros package Bitcoin Core is a goal; they just need to improve their process to do it safely first
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 845 2014-07-27 17:25:25 <Luke-Jr> we don't try to stop them from doing it correctly, just from doing it poorly
 846 2014-07-27 17:26:17 <sipa> i don't see how we're either helping or making things harder for them
 847 2014-07-27 17:26:29 <sipa> they'll keep just taking the source and building it in their own way
 848 2014-07-27 17:26:54 <sipa> but the fact is that regardless of what distros are doing, _we_ are doing full binary releases
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 850 2014-07-27 17:27:08 <sipa> whether we should is a different discussion
 851 2014-07-27 17:27:25 <sipa> but if we do, let's optimize the process for it
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 853 2014-07-27 17:27:58 <Luke-Jr> my point is only that producing those binaries is a job for something outside BCCore. we don't need to put the kitchen sink in the main repo just because we wash our plates we eat off of as we code
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 855 2014-07-27 17:29:01 <Luke-Jr> for the improvement of *Bitcoin*, we should also be doing things in a way that make it easier for (eg) btcd and DarkWallet to also use (perhaps they will contribute packages for dependencies they have, but we don't)
 856 2014-07-27 17:29:45 <sipa> i understand that concern, and as i suggested, in the future that functionality can move to a different repository if we actually do have different repositories
 857 2014-07-27 17:29:53 <sipa> the code is just not modularized enough for that
 858 2014-07-27 17:30:20 <Luke-Jr> why wait?
 859 2014-07-27 17:30:25 <Luke-Jr> the code is modularized enough for this part today
 860 2014-07-27 17:30:28 <sipa> because it comes at a cost
 861 2014-07-27 17:30:37 <sipa> needing to synchronize between different repositories
 862 2014-07-27 17:30:42 <Luke-Jr> there is no inherent need to have binary-building tools inside the main repo
 863 2014-07-27 17:30:57 <sipa> it makes automatic testing harder
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 865 2014-07-27 17:31:14 <Luke-Jr> the automatic tester can use a separate repo pretty easily..
 866 2014-07-27 17:31:38 <sipa> well i'm fine with having it in a different repository
 867 2014-07-27 17:31:49 <sipa> but the point is that we're currently already doing it in this one
 868 2014-07-27 17:31:59 <jrick> multiple repos are a huge pain for us but we didn't have to modularize it that way (we could have made packages for each component, but in the same repo)
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 870 2014-07-27 17:32:08 <Luke-Jr> no, we're currently doing most of it in Ubuntu's packaging process
 871 2014-07-27 17:32:32 <sipa> our gitian descriptors currently define which source version with which hash for dependencies to use
 872 2014-07-27 17:32:42 <sipa> the main repository is fixing the dependencies
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 874 2014-07-27 17:33:51 <Luke-Jr> jrick: the current discussion is having scripts to build every dependency deterministically inside the main repo too
 875 2014-07-27 17:34:37 <sipa> we already have those, inside gitian descriptors
 876 2014-07-27 17:34:43 <sipa> where they can't be used for anything else
 877 2014-07-27 17:35:04 <jrick> hmm, seems sane enough but we have to "vendor" some of our dependancies (goleveldb, gorilla websockets) since we don't want those changing without our control
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 879 2014-07-27 17:35:45 <sipa> we have some dependencies inside the source tree (leveldb in particular, soon probably libsecp256k1) as they're too consensus-critical
 880 2014-07-27 17:36:13 <sipa> the rest is just regular dependency checking, using whatever is available
 881 2014-07-27 17:36:33 <sipa> but optionally there is a system for doing deterministic builds (including some other dependencies) for binary releases
 882 2014-07-27 17:37:07 <sipa> the proposal would move a large part of that out of gitian into a subdirectory of the main repo, where it can be make'd
 883 2014-07-27 17:37:22 <sipa> so it can be reused by other parts (including automated testing)
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 917 2014-07-27 18:30:23 <mn3monic> hi, I still have problems with p2sh testnet hash base58 encoding, help is appreciated, if anyone is online
 918 2014-07-27 18:30:49 <iwilcox> mn3monic: I'm sure the prefix is on the address types page on the wiki
 919 2014-07-27 18:31:52 <mn3monic> iwilcox, yes, true, but doesn't work, maybe you can help me with some tests
 920 2014-07-27 18:32:16 <mn3monic> >>> hash160_sec_to_bitcoin_address(hash160(binascii.unhexlify(hex_script)), address_prefix=b'\196')
 921 2014-07-27 18:32:50 <mn3monic> doesn't return what I expect, but u'AbGvkcWnMLiBHH1DLaSPKdR7FDxz39CCSqom'
 922 2014-07-27 18:33:18 <mn3monic> on the wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes for p2sh testnet encodings, 196 is notified as the right prefix
 923 2014-07-27 18:33:20 <iwilcox> Can we take this to #bitcoin?
 924 2014-07-27 18:33:53 <mn3monic> ok
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1075 2014-07-27 21:12:16 <jcorgan> PR #4594 adds ZMQ-based publication of validated blocks and transactions; fire away :)
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1089 2014-07-27 21:25:11 <jcorgan> is pull-tester unhappy for everyone or just me?
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1094 2014-07-27 21:29:24 <petertodd> sipa: individual data pushes are only limited to 520 bytes if they are evaluated; op_return <slightly less than 1MB> is legal according to the consensus protocol
1095 2014-07-27 21:31:36 <petertodd> j0b: in general, parallel blockchains aren't secure. if you need proof-of-publication I'd recommend you ignore op_return and use a generalized censorship resistant scheme: https://github.com/petertodd/blockpop
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1102 2014-07-27 21:40:26 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: please don't encourage spam
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1109 2014-07-27 21:53:11 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: There's demand for a generic proof of publication system. Unless a better solution is developed, Bitcoin is a natural fit in the eyes of those that want to do it.
1110 2014-07-27 21:54:43 <gmaxwell> Eliel: I don't think you're correct about the demand. I think there is a kind of pretextual demand where people want something to exist, but not really. The things people create are rubbish, generally, and hyper inefficient— and are never used.
1111 2014-07-27 21:55:15 <gmaxwell> Most actually are not proof of publication, but proof of existance, which is very much less useful— for subtle reasons.
1112 2014-07-27 21:56:44 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: no reason the data cannot be merge-mined
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1114 2014-07-27 21:56:54 <midnightmagic> Eliel: There are high-quality alternatives to spamming the bitcoin blockchain itself. There's IMO zero legitimate need to put the spam directly in the blockchain.
1115 2014-07-27 21:57:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the reason the data cannot be merged mined is simply that no one has made the tools.
1116 2014-07-27 21:58:00 <Eliel> Also, merge mining will mean it'll be closer to proof of existence rather than proof of publication.
1117 2014-07-27 21:58:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: exactly, laziness
1118 2014-07-27 21:58:26 <gmaxwell> Eliel: hm? merge mining is one way to achieve scalable proof of publication.
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1120 2014-07-27 21:58:52 <gmaxwell> (otherwise there is no need for any kind of chain at all)
1121 2014-07-27 21:59:10 <Eliel> yes, but it'll be weaker than including the data in bitcoin blockchain.
1122 2014-07-27 21:59:15 <Luke-Jr> cfields: how do you avoid rebuilding in gitian? I thought you had said that, but saw no evidence of it in the code. :/
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1124 2014-07-27 21:59:38 <gmaxwell> Eliel: Weaker how?
1125 2014-07-27 22:01:21 <Eliel> well, depends on the exact implementation, but if all copies of the blockchain have it, that's pretty good proof it was published.
1126 2014-07-27 22:01:25 <gmaxwell> Eliel: using bitcoin makes you fundimentally weak because you're abusing a very narrow channel against its purposes, bitcoin already makes your life pretty hard for these applications.
1127 2014-07-27 22:01:57 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it's not, encoding some data in the blockchain doesn't mean that anyone has seen it at all... it's not useful, and if the data is obvious, it'll end up getting blocked.
1128 2014-07-27 22:02:24 <berndj-blackout> or pruned
1129 2014-07-27 22:02:26 <gmaxwell> (and if you hide the data, it's no longer a proof of publication)
1130 2014-07-27 22:03:07 <Eliel> well, true, if the data is actively fought against, that makes it less useful.
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1132 2014-07-27 22:03:48 <berndj-blackout> the more useful it is to you, the spammier it is to others, which gives them a greater incentive to fight it
1133 2014-07-27 22:04:17 <gmaxwell> it's just a bad idea, but if there were actual demand there are plenty of ways of doing this that aren't disruptive to bitcoin.
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1135 2014-07-27 22:04:27 <Eliel> but true... bitcoin blockchain does have the drawback that it doesn't guarantee someone has actually looked at it.
1136 2014-07-27 22:04:37 <Luke-Jr> "proof of publication in the blockchain" works "better" only because it is essentially "force others to store data they don't want to store"
1137 2014-07-27 22:04:46 <wiretapped> proof of existence in the btc blockchain for software releases seems pretty useful, and relatively cheap/harmless to bitcoin
1138 2014-07-27 22:04:51 <gmaxwell> and that people may actively censor it, and that the channel is so narrow it may be quite costly to use, and ...
1139 2014-07-27 22:05:02 <Luke-Jr> wiretapped: there is zero value to putting it in the blockchain
1140 2014-07-27 22:05:33 <wiretapped> the value is that when i install a piece of software i know i'm not the victim of a targetted attack
1141 2014-07-27 22:05:35 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: you can achieve proof of existence with a single merkle root hash in one block for any number of pieces of data.
1142 2014-07-27 22:05:38 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: proof of existence doesn't do much of value for software releases.  I prove a honest version exists, I can concurrently prove a dishonest version exists. Not so helpful.
1143 2014-07-27 22:05:51 <wiretapped> or at least not a targetted attack by someone incapable of subverting bitcoin
1144 2014-07-27 22:05:55 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: what you want there is not a proof of existance at all.
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1146 2014-07-27 22:06:22 <wiretapped> gmaxwell: i'm thinking each software project has one bitcoin address they send release announcement transactions from
1147 2014-07-27 22:06:28 <gmaxwell> you actually need double-spend protection for that, and bitcoin is not terribly scalable for that.
1148 2014-07-27 22:06:33 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: that doesn't count as in the blcokchain
1149 2014-07-27 22:06:50 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: then don't call that a proof of existance because it very much isn't one.
1150 2014-07-27 22:07:15 <wiretapped> gmaxwell: yeah, you're right... it's related but different
1151 2014-07-27 22:07:20 <wiretapped> what you you call that?
1152 2014-07-27 22:07:31 <Luke-Jr> "signed by the author"? :p
1153 2014-07-27 22:07:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no.
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1155 2014-07-27 22:07:45 <wiretapped> Luke-Jr: signed by the author is quite different
1156 2014-07-27 22:07:49 <wiretapped> signing keys can be compromised
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1158 2014-07-27 22:07:56 <berndj-blackout> wiretapped, why not just openpgp sign the release announcement?
1159 2014-07-27 22:07:58 <Luke-Jr> so can bitcoin addresses
1160 2014-07-27 22:08:00 <gmaxwell> It's the anti-double-spending problem. It's a uniqueness of history proof.
1161 2014-07-27 22:08:01 <wiretapped> i want the decentralized append-only property
1162 2014-07-27 22:08:14 <gmaxwell> y'all are not helping me by being clueless here. :)
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1165 2014-07-27 22:09:06 <gmaxwell> berndj-blackout: that threat he's trying to correct is where the author produces a good version and (at gun point) a bad version, both signed, and the bad version is just given to a few intended victims who hopefully won't notice— basically undermining the many-eyes-shallow-bugs property.
1166 2014-07-27 22:09:19 <Luke-Jr> wiretapped: there's nothing inherently append-only about the blockchain.
1167 2014-07-27 22:09:39 <wiretapped> Luke-Jr: lol i guess bitcoin isn't so useful then?
1168 2014-07-27 22:09:54 <gmaxwell> And indeed, what bitcoin does is actually useful for that— unlike proof of existance / publication in general.
1169 2014-07-27 22:09:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: then have every user sign the hash of what they've used (in a way that doesn't imply endorsement)
1170 2014-07-27 22:10:14 <gmaxwell> though because bitcoin is not censorship resistant, it's a big liability if done in the obvious way here.
1171 2014-07-27 22:10:21 <Luke-Jr> wiretapped: Bitcoin isn't strictly append-only.
1172 2014-07-27 22:10:29 <gmaxwell> Since miners can simply block your software releases (e.g. vulnerable version must stay deployed)
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1174 2014-07-27 22:11:32 <gmaxwell> something like bytecoin/monero/etc. (or zerocash when it exists) would be much better, because they make censorship harder.
1175 2014-07-27 22:11:56 <gmaxwell> or some bitcoin sidechain with the same cryptosystem, assuming we ever get one of those.
1176 2014-07-27 22:12:30 <wiretapped> Luke-Jr: in the short term, no. i wouldn't trust it to certify that a software release has been permanantly recorded until many blocks have passed
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1179 2014-07-27 22:14:37 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: I've given a fair amount of though to sofware release management in the past, you might find some of this interesting: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/update_checking_requirements
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1182 2014-07-27 22:16:01 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: in general, I think multisignature visibility proofs may work out a lot better than global blockchains. I suppose I should write that up, though some of it is sort of implied by that page.  Esp since multisignature visibility proofs can show additional properties like "I checked this and it's not obviously containing a backdoor"
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1187 2014-07-27 22:16:32 <wiretapped> gmaxwell: wow, i think that page covers all the things i've thought of plus several more :)
1188 2014-07-27 22:16:55 <wiretapped> except maybe one thing (i just skimmed)
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1192 2014-07-27 22:17:14 <wiretapped> i think the thing i was describing above doesn't need to be append-only
1193 2014-07-27 22:17:18 <wiretapped> it can be an add-only set
1194 2014-07-27 22:17:27 <wiretapped> so it doesn't really need the proof of work of bitcoin
1195 2014-07-27 22:18:05 <wiretapped> it could just be a majority of some large number of pre-selected notaries that acknowledge an item is in a set
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1197 2014-07-27 22:18:48 <gmaxwell> wiretapped: yes. I agree with that. (and the notaries produce digital signatures, so they can never 'remove' an item from their claims)
1198 2014-07-27 22:19:05 <wiretapped> of course.
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1200 2014-07-27 22:19:44 <gmaxwell> and because you're not depending on a single global registry, you get some stronger censorship resistance (at least under some threat models)
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1204 2014-07-27 22:20:43 <gmaxwell> e.g. you'll accept the update as published if and only if half the notaries you trust have seen it. And there isn't a requirement that everyone use the same notaries if you need only add-only.
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1206 2014-07-27 22:21:32 <wiretapped> right. and notaries can also certify eachother's state
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1210 2014-07-27 22:22:15 <wiretapped> so i don't trust a notary's current state unless some other notaries know about its state
1211 2014-07-27 22:23:06 <wiretapped> once you remove the need for a canonical ordering i think a lot of things become much easier :)
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1213 2014-07-27 22:23:39 <wiretapped> and the unordered add-only set could have a lot of useful applications
1214 2014-07-27 22:24:33 <wiretapped> the thing i first thought of it for was shared write capabilities in tahoe-lafs
1215 2014-07-27 22:24:53 <wiretapped> (currently sharing a write capabilty leads to sadness as there is no coordination of writes)
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1222 2014-07-27 22:32:22 <Eliel> I've written a rough high level design for a notary network that might work for something like this.
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1224 2014-07-27 22:34:52 <Eliel> it's by no means a finished idea but if you're curious, you might take a look https://docs.google.com/a/futuresolutions.fi/document/d/1xtG4im_yV0QI4YHsjgVsrH4pE2_hVXmAcG9ZMbjvsw4/edit#
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1226 2014-07-27 22:35:18 <gmaxwell> we might want to move this to #bitcoin-wizards
1227 2014-07-27 22:36:42 <Eliel> yes, if someone wants to discuss what I've written in the document, please do so at #bitcoin-wizards
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1240 2014-07-27 22:53:05 <petertodd> wiretapped: fwiw I'm working on a proof-of-publication tool for software releases right now actually
1241 2014-07-27 22:53:57 <petertodd> wiretapped: and this whole "miners may block your releases" thing is BS - them doing so destroys bitcoin as well, particularly if you use a timelock crypto scheme to force them to do so via whitelist rather than a blacklist
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1273 2014-07-27 23:27:34 <go1111111> should the bitcoin PPA be updated to 0.9.2.1? Looks like 0.9.1 is the current version: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/ubuntu/bitcoin   .. BlueMatt?
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1275 2014-07-27 23:29:07 <iwilcox> go1111111: I think the debianisation in git works just fine in 0.9.2.1 and it's not hard to build as a package.
1276 2014-07-27 23:30:02 <iwilcox> https://superuser.com/questions/699315/how-to-install-bitcoin-qt-wallet-on-debian-7/736508 worked fine for me with 0.9.2.1
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1280 2014-07-27 23:32:24 <go1111111> ok, I can try that. Seems like a bad experience that non-expert users who go to https://bitcoin.org/en/download will either get the old version or get stuck though
1281 2014-07-27 23:32:50 <sipa> it should be updated, yes
1282 2014-07-27 23:33:02 <sipa> ;;later tell BlueMatt 0.9.2.1 ppa?
1283 2014-07-27 23:33:02 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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