1 2014-08-04 00:01:32 <E-Rage> sipa: ok, i'll do that - perhaps related when i first checked out master and ran from my 0.9.1 it complained I had a corrupt database
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   3 2014-08-04 00:03:33 <goldstar> is it possible to run test transaction/sandbox when developing applications?
   4 2014-08-04 00:03:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: use testnet
   5 2014-08-04 00:03:51 <sipa> eh, goldstar
   6 2014-08-04 00:04:10 <sipa> it's a separate network that is very much like bitcoin's network, but its currency is worthless and has easier blocks
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   8 2014-08-04 00:05:06 <goldstar> sipa: right, any guides/docs on getting started?
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  12 2014-08-04 00:05:37 <sipa> goldstar: if you're using bitcoind, run it with -testnet
  13 2014-08-04 00:05:51 <E-Rage> goldstar: it's trivial, just use testnet=1 in bitcoin.conf or in params and your bitcoind will start using the testnet
  14 2014-08-04 00:06:24 <goldstar> thanks guys; and in terns of coins, how would it work?
  15 2014-08-04 00:06:29 <goldstar> terms*
  16 2014-08-04 00:06:40 <sipa> can you be more specific?
  17 2014-08-04 00:06:45 <E-Rage> goldstar: the same - if you need some coins quickly there's a few faucets around
  18 2014-08-04 00:07:03 <goldstar> thanks :)
  19 2014-08-04 00:07:05 <E-Rage> I don't know how practical it is for one node to mine on testnet
  20 2014-08-04 00:07:09 <E-Rage> goldstar: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet
  21 2014-08-04 00:07:29 <goldstar> thanks, just what I was looking for
  22 2014-08-04 00:08:24 <E-Rage> yeah, then you can google 'testnet faucet' to find a couple
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  27 2014-08-04 00:16:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: 32 bit binary is fine for me too.
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  46 2014-08-04 00:44:27 <earlz> is there any estimate of how long it'll be before bitcoin 0.10 reaches release candidate?
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  56 2014-08-04 01:01:37 <sipa> earlz: not yet
  57 2014-08-04 01:01:51 <earlz> so probably a few months out at least?
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  59 2014-08-04 01:03:35 <sipa> if 0.10 goes without headers-first sync, maybe sooner
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  61 2014-08-04 01:05:07 <earlz> headers-first being download blockchain headers first?
  62 2014-08-04 01:05:27 <ywecur> Might be a stupid question, but why name the next version 0.10 instead of 1.0?
  63 2014-08-04 01:05:34 <earlz> lol agreed
  64 2014-08-04 01:05:42 <earlz> 0.10 always causes confusion
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  66 2014-08-04 01:06:04 <ywecur> Yeah it makes no sense to me
  67 2014-08-04 01:06:42 <earlz> I assume the proper wayt o version it semantically is to only bump to 1.0 when there is a hardfork.. but there have been forks before without bumping it so ehhh
  68 2014-08-04 01:07:06 <sipa> 1.0 == software is mature
  69 2014-08-04 01:07:10 <sipa> we're far from there
  70 2014-08-04 01:07:38 <ywecur> What constitutes mature software?
  71 2014-08-04 01:07:53 <earlz> bitcoin isn't production ready? lol
  72 2014-08-04 01:08:06 <sipa> earlz: i consider it experimental yes :)
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  74 2014-08-04 01:08:19 <sipa> i never understood why people want to actually spend money on it :D
  75 2014-08-04 01:08:40 <earlz> just give me a few of these bitcoin tokens. I need some for testing and testnet tokens won't work :D
  76 2014-08-04 01:08:48 <earlz> afterall, it's just experimental software lol
  77 2014-08-04 01:09:03 <sipa> we have this annoying thing called an economy that makes it very hard to actually experiment still, but hey, it has upsides too
  78 2014-08-04 01:09:34 <earlz> but yea, it is quite scary how much money is in bitcoin, while bitcoin itself is only a few years old
  79 2014-08-04 01:09:46 <earlz> it's even scarying looking at altcoins lol
  80 2014-08-04 01:09:57 <sipa> i do agree that 0.10 somehow feels much less advanced than 0.9
  81 2014-08-04 01:10:08 <earlz> fast syncing sounds awesome :)
  82 2014-08-04 01:10:19 <ywecur> Are there any major innovations left to be added at this point or is maintenence mainly what's left?
  83 2014-08-04 01:10:20 <sipa> but that's just because we incorrectly see 0.9 as a decimal, rather than a dotted sequence of numbers
  84 2014-08-04 01:10:48 <ywecur> exactly
  85 2014-08-04 01:11:00 <sipa> ywecur: i think most of the actual innovations will be things in the ecosystem, not necessarily in the reference software
  86 2014-08-04 01:11:17 <sipa> and development of the network and its protocol rules also happens somewhat independently of the development of the client software
  87 2014-08-04 01:11:38 <sipa> but yes, there is a lot left to do... efficiency improvements, dos protection, resource management, ...
  88 2014-08-04 01:11:58 <earlz> My understanding is a lot of innovations are not intended to ever be implemented in the reference client
  89 2014-08-04 01:11:58 <sipa> there are many features to be experimented with, like more featureful scripting languages
  90 2014-08-04 01:12:17 <sipa> depends what they are about
  91 2014-08-04 01:13:07 <ywecur> With floating fees coming about now, do you guys see any future for micro transactions in bitcoin?
  92 2014-08-04 01:13:31 <sipa> bitcoin (on chain) doesn't work for microtransactions
  93 2014-08-04 01:13:39 <earlz> a turing complete scripting language I still think would be fun
  94 2014-08-04 01:13:51 <sipa> it would be horror, i think
  95 2014-08-04 01:13:53 <earlz> floating fees?
  96 2014-08-04 01:14:27 <sipa> dos protection and economic incentives for node running turn very hard when you can't reason about limitations anymore (which turing completeness implies)
  97 2014-08-04 01:14:54 <sipa> floating fees = the network tries to determine what fees are necessary for network propagation and getting mined
  98 2014-08-04 01:14:59 <earlz> ah
  99 2014-08-04 01:14:59 <sipa> rather than being hardcoded
 100 2014-08-04 01:15:09 <earlz> doesn't that complicate services quite a bit?
 101 2014-08-04 01:15:25 <sipa> they'll have to live with it at some point
 102 2014-08-04 01:15:31 <sipa> better now than later
 103 2014-08-04 01:16:00 <earlz> Not to alt-talk, but I'm a part in a coin that tried fees done on a percentage, rather than a static number
 104 2014-08-04 01:16:10 <earlz> exchanges and many other services had a lot of problems with it
 105 2014-08-04 01:16:12 <sipa> that makes no sense
 106 2014-08-04 01:16:27 <sipa> the cost to the network is not proportional to the value transferred
 107 2014-08-04 01:16:49 <earlz> yea, I see that now heh, and the idea seems to have failed anyway
 108 2014-08-04 01:17:07 <sipa> in bitcoin, fees have always been proportional to transaction size
 109 2014-08-04 01:17:10 <earlz> but either way, having fees that differ significantly makes things complicated
 110 2014-08-04 01:17:24 <sipa> well it's inevitable that things will get more complicated there
 111 2014-08-04 01:17:27 <ywecur> Wow that's to bad. I mean I get that the blockchain is a public resource but I'd hate to see more power go to centralized companies like Coinbase because of it
 112 2014-08-04 01:17:41 <gmaxwell> ywecur: that doesn't follow
 113 2014-08-04 01:17:46 <sipa> ywecur: there are several in-between solutions
 114 2014-08-04 01:17:47 <gmaxwell> also this is now far offtopic for this channel
 115 2014-08-04 01:19:11 <earlz> how far can the fees vary with this new fee mechanism?
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 117 2014-08-04 01:19:53 <gmaxwell> earlz: all the floating fees stuff does is gives the wallet advice about recent fees and what would be required to be competative with them.
 118 2014-08-04 01:20:14 <ywecur> gmaxwell: Sorry boss :)
 119 2014-08-04 01:21:29 <earlz> I mean how much can they vary? Like would it ever go to 10 times the minimum relay feeor some such?
 120 2014-08-04 01:21:39 <earlz> or does it stay fairly low no matter what?
 121 2014-08-04 01:22:45 <sipa> earlz: if necessary, it will certainly need to go 10x the minimum relay fee
 122 2014-08-04 01:22:59 <sipa> it depends on the ecosystem
 123 2014-08-04 01:24:13 <earlz> Well that's the thing. Exchanges and such commonly charge for fees by using a rough estimate and a float. So like they calc that on average, fees are 0.0002.. So, that's what they charge, sometimes is 0.0001 and sometimes it's 0.0003 of course
 124 2014-08-04 01:24:40 <earlz> would such a floating fee structure make that unworkable though, by having a large amount of variance each block?
 125 2014-08-04 01:24:45 <earlz> or each transaction?
 126 2014-08-04 01:25:09 <gmaxwell> earlz: the floating fees doesn't change the network behavior
 127 2014-08-04 01:25:19 <gmaxwell> someone could continue to happily apply a static fee
 128 2014-08-04 01:25:40 <earlz> so it's basically if you don't want that, just don't upgrade to 0.10?
 129 2014-08-04 01:25:41 <gmaxwell> (not to say that such a fee would be competative, but thats true regardless of the floating fee stuff)
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 131 2014-08-04 01:25:46 <gmaxwell> ...
 132 2014-08-04 01:25:53 <gmaxwell> no just change the setting
 133 2014-08-04 01:26:14 <sipa> or use a different wallet (almost everyone does already anyway)
 134 2014-08-04 01:26:15 <earlz> yea if they were using old static fees though as well, they might get huge transaction lag or other such problems
 135 2014-08-04 01:26:19 <earlz> hmm
 136 2014-08-04 01:26:31 <sipa> maybe the floating fees grow into a policy on the network that multiple wallets implement
 137 2014-08-04 01:26:32 <gmaxwell> earlz: prior to the floating fee stuff the default in bitcoin-qt was _no fee_. The floating fee stuff just adds a market estimation function, and makes the default a market fee.
 138 2014-08-04 01:26:34 <earlz> tough problem
 139 2014-08-04 01:26:49 <sipa> and i do expect that floating fees will cause problems
 140 2014-08-04 01:27:04 <sipa> but in the long term, we need something like that anyway
 141 2014-08-04 01:27:30 <earlz> infrastructure just needs to catch up
 142 2014-08-04 01:27:51 <gmaxwell> well the given estimation function is so/so, there are no magical solutions though... also the default being to bid for immediate confirms might also drive the fee market up.
 143 2014-08-04 01:28:07 <earlz> it's hard though, since there is no easy way (with the reference wallet) of knowing exact transaction fee before sending atransaction
 144 2014-08-04 01:28:29 <sipa> if you use raw transactions you can
 145 2014-08-04 01:28:34 <gmaxwell> then again there are a bunch of wallets that pay really high fees by default, because they don't have a size estimation loop and because of ???, and that hasn't seemed to cause fee rallies.
 146 2014-08-04 01:28:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: or coin control.
 147 2014-08-04 01:28:59 <sipa> oh, cool
 148 2014-08-04 01:29:15 <earlz> I wish coin control was exposed to the RPC interface lol
 149 2014-08-04 01:29:24 <sipa> it is, mostly
 150 2014-08-04 01:29:25 <gmaxwell> it is
 151 2014-08-04 01:29:45 <sipa> listunspent, createrawtransaction, signrawtransaction, sendrawtransaction
 152 2014-08-04 01:29:53 <gmaxwell> raw transactions / listunspent / listaddressgroupings are the functionality. I think the only thing missing is the priority estimator.
 153 2014-08-04 01:29:53 <sipa> and getnewchangeaddress
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 155 2014-08-04 01:30:14 <earlz> raw transactions hurt my brain :(
 156 2014-08-04 01:30:19 <earlz> especially signing
 157 2014-08-04 01:30:25 <sipa> good
 158 2014-08-04 01:30:28 <sipa> then don't use it :)
 159 2014-08-04 01:30:51 <earlz> I want a curses UI that pops up through JSON some how and lets me choose inputs rofl
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 162 2014-08-04 01:31:04 <gmaxwell> (but then you also probably shouldn't be using coin control— it's a only slightly safer but less flexible interface on the same behavior)
 163 2014-08-04 01:31:28 <earlz> I really need to just take a dive and spend some hours on testnet learning all the ins and outs of raw transactions
 164 2014-08-04 01:31:31 <sipa> i never understood why people want the micromanagement that coin control gives... i find it a very good thing to have, but mostly because it is educational
 165 2014-08-04 01:31:35 <sipa> not to actually use it
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 168 2014-08-04 01:33:29 <earlz> I still never found anything suitable for writing out a raw transaction with control over the opcodes
 169 2014-08-04 01:33:41 <earlz> I found a lot of stuff that can parse it, but not much else
 170 2014-08-04 01:34:26 <gmaxwell> Thats probably not something that a GUI should ever exist for, not for mainnet. It's not something that can just safely be done casually.
 171 2014-08-04 01:34:55 <gmaxwell> It's like saying "I haven't found anything that lets me drag and drop a circut for creating message encryption."
 172 2014-08-04 01:35:41 <midnightmagic> it should be programmatically possible. it's unfortunate that sooo much is at stake if anybody gets it wrong.
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 176 2014-08-04 01:37:34 <gmaxwell> It's remarkably easy to get it wrong, I would not use a novel scriptpubkey on mainnet without peer review.
 177 2014-08-04 01:37:39 <earlz> it'd be awesome if there was a bitcoin assembler of some such
 178 2014-08-04 01:38:01 <gmaxwell> As soon as you do something non-trivial it's easy to end up with an anyone-can-spend output.
 179 2014-08-04 01:38:21 <earlz> are there scanners running to claim anyone-can-spend outputs?
 180 2014-08-04 01:38:23 <gmaxwell> "Oh, lol, you didn't think about someone giving a negative input to your script? sucks to be you— my money now!"
 181 2014-08-04 01:38:51 <gmaxwell> earlz: there are few enough created that no one bothers. I mean, they get claimed, but not in an obviously automated fashion.
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 186 2014-08-04 01:41:16 <midnightmagic> didn't mtgox do that for a while
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 270 2014-08-04 04:19:19 <E-Rage> sipa: took forever but I think I reduced it to this guy: ae775b5b311982a3d932a9e34ddc94ce597dcaaf
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 272 2014-08-04 04:21:37 <E-Rage> running through another set cuz i may have accidentally screwed something but i'll let you know
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 306 2014-08-04 05:26:08 <mana_> hello do chrome extension wallet store my password hash on local storage?
 307 2014-08-04 05:26:13 <mana_> isn't that insecure?
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 325 2014-08-04 05:49:00 <dsnrk> mana_: not really the place for talking about that, this is for the core client. you should avoid using chrome extension wallets though.
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 328 2014-08-04 05:53:52 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: this is for any bitcoin development.
 329 2014-08-04 05:54:00 <Luke-Jr> (although not support)
 330 2014-08-04 05:54:34 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: is a chrome extension wallet bitcoin development though?
 331 2014-08-04 05:54:47 <Luke-Jr> sure. although it's still a stupid idea ofc
 332 2014-08-04 05:54:49 <dsnrk> the topic says talking about a chrome extension is off topic.
 333 2014-08-04 05:55:03 pen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 334 2014-08-04 05:55:06 <dsnrk> but alright, shan't jump on that in future.
 335 2014-08-04 05:55:31 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: you were right in this case, but not exactly the right reason; it was still off-topic cuz it's support :p
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 445 2014-08-04 08:48:51 <wumpus> E-Rage: ae775b5b311982a3d932a9e34ddc94ce597dcaaf could at most affect RPC, I don't see how it could affect blockchain indexing
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 480 2014-08-04 10:06:20 paul0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 481 2014-08-04 10:07:26 mortalle has joined
 482 2014-08-04 10:07:40 <mortalle> Are there any special limits to the size of the coinbase transaction?
 483 2014-08-04 10:07:46 llllllllll has joined
 484 2014-08-04 10:08:01 <mortalle> Can I miner make a 990KB coinbase transaction for example?
 485 2014-08-04 10:09:28 Malakai33 has joined
 486 2014-08-04 10:10:41 <gmaxwell> mortalle: you can but there is lots of mining equipment that won't mine such a best.
 487 2014-08-04 10:10:50 <gmaxwell> mortalle: there are several such transactions in testnet.
 488 2014-08-04 10:11:14 <gmaxwell> I recommend installing sox on your host and runnin (./bitcoind getrawtransaction 73e64e38faea386c88a578fd1919bcdba3d0b3af7b6302bf6ee1b423dc4e4333 ; ./bitcoind                    getrawtransaction d85af546147ff78dfb06e9469ddfc84adc3ce00cda54db8d65b7617ff2b7661a) | xxd -r -p | play -tul -
 489 2014-08-04 10:11:29 <gmaxwell> (on testnet)
 490 2014-08-04 10:11:32 <mortalle> Ah, thank you!
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 504 2014-08-04 10:34:14 <mortalle> I've observed that the time it takes for sendtoaddress increases significantly the more unconfirmed transactions there are in the wallet. Is there an easy way to avoid that?
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 509 2014-08-04 10:37:18 <wumpus> mortalle: you could try -spendzeroconfchange=0, so that the wallet won't spend unconfirmed transaction outputs
 510 2014-08-04 10:38:13 <mortalle> wumpus, thanks, is this a command line param or something to put in bitocin.conf?
 511 2014-08-04 10:38:20 <wumpus> either
 512 2014-08-04 10:38:45 <wumpus> but remove the - if you put it in bitcoin.conf...
 513 2014-08-04 10:39:25 <wumpus> it does mean that sends can be rejected if there are no sufficiently confirmed outputs to choose from, even though there is enough balance in theory
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 516 2014-08-04 10:40:23 <mortalle> ok, thanks :) i'll see if that improves performance
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 531 2014-08-04 11:13:09 <mortalle> wumpus, Works like a charm (or it seems) Thanks.
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 533 2014-08-04 11:14:28 <michagogo> gmaxwell: did someone stuff audio into the chain or something?
 534 2014-08-04 11:14:36 psgs is now known as psgs|away
 535 2014-08-04 11:14:53 <sipa> it's the voice of Satoshi
 536 2014-08-04 11:15:03 <michagogo> ...?
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 538 2014-08-04 11:15:13 <sipa> (in other words: yes)
 539 2014-08-04 11:15:48 <michagogo> What is it? (or, what command will turn that into a sound file rather than playing it?)
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 541 2014-08-04 11:16:35 <sipa> remove the play command at the end
 542 2014-08-04 11:17:14 <michagogo> and >file, I assume?
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 548 2014-08-04 11:19:08 <sipa> yes, but it's raw audio, so you won't be able to play it with a normal audio player
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 550 2014-08-04 11:20:01 <michagogo> Ah. What will play it?
 551 2014-08-04 11:20:03 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 552 2014-08-04 11:20:15 <michagogo> ;;google play raw audio windows
 553 2014-08-04 11:20:16 <gribble> raw audio player free download - Softonic: <http://en.softonic.com/s/raw-audio-player>; raw player free download - Softonic: <http://en.softonic.com/s/raw-player>; windows 8 - play raw PCM wave audio in Win8 (consumer preview ...: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10032670/play-raw-pcm-wave-audio-in-win8-consumer-preview>
 554 2014-08-04 11:20:16 <sipa> play -tul filename :)
 555 2014-08-04 11:20:29 <michagogo> ;;google play raw audio windows -site:softonic.com
 556 2014-08-04 11:20:29 <gribble> windows 8 - play raw PCM wave audio in Win8 (consumer preview ...: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10032670/play-raw-pcm-wave-audio-in-win8-consumer-preview>; VideoLAN - VLC - Features: <http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html>; Most popular RAW Format software: Windows Media Player ...: <http://raw-format.software.informer.com/software/>
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 558 2014-08-04 11:21:54 <michagogo> Hm. My linux vps is down, apparently
 559 2014-08-04 11:22:10 <michagogo> And getrawtransaction on that first tx seems to have frozen the debug window...
 560 2014-08-04 11:22:35 <michagogo> And spiked CPU usage? o_O
 561 2014-08-04 11:22:47 <wumpus> you tried to open it in the GUI? oh boy
 562 2014-08-04 11:23:08 <michagogo> uh...
 563 2014-08-04 11:23:50 <wumpus> there is currently no functionality built-in to send long lines to the soundcard instead of the screen
 564 2014-08-04 11:23:52 <michagogo> Ah, I see now why that's happening
 565 2014-08-04 11:23:58 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 566 2014-08-04 11:24:06 <michagogo> Looks like RPC still works
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 568 2014-08-04 11:24:14 <dsnrk> wumpus: I'll post a github issue.
 569 2014-08-04 11:24:27 llllllllll has joined
 570 2014-08-04 11:24:32 <michagogo> So I used Ruby (irb) to get the tx over rpc
 571 2014-08-04 11:24:44 <michagogo> Still watching the hex flash by...
 572 2014-08-04 11:25:12 <michagogo> irb(main):004:0> tx1.length
 573 2014-08-04 11:25:12 <michagogo> => 1999804
 574 2014-08-04 11:25:30 <wumpus> dsnrk: and very large data could be rendered as video
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 576 2014-08-04 11:26:00 <dsnrk> wumpus: I'm already firing up ffmpeg and seeing what I can get in 1MB
 577 2014-08-04 11:26:10 <wumpus> (ok, that gives wrong ideas, maybe fun for an altcoin client that allows storing large data in the block chain)
 578 2014-08-04 11:26:14 <sipa> we need BCMF (blockchain media format)
 579 2014-08-04 11:27:02 <wumpus> sipa: xbmc recently changed their name, it's now BCMC (block chain media center)
 580 2014-08-04 11:27:22 <sipa> :D
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 582 2014-08-04 11:28:58 <dsnrk> whoops. thought I might get good compression maxing out x264. < 1 FPS encoding.
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 585 2014-08-04 11:35:28 <dsnrk> good news is you can get 2 minutes of Adventure Time in one minute.
 586 2014-08-04 11:35:32 <dsnrk> **one megabyte
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 588 2014-08-04 11:41:34 <wumpus> I'm trying to watch the blockchain in full-hd now with  gst-launch-1.0 filesrc location=boostrap.dat ! videoparse format=i420 width=1920 height=1080 framerate=30/1 ! xvimagesink  .. but my harddisk isn't fast enough
 589 2014-08-04 11:42:27 <dsnrk> what does the output of that look like?
 590 2014-08-04 11:42:37 <wumpus> colorful noise
 591 2014-08-04 11:42:53 <wumpus> with some other-colored regions and patterns sometimes
 592 2014-08-04 11:43:41 <dsnrk> I'd try it from a ramdisk but I have no idea what that command is even using.
 593 2014-08-04 11:46:16 mE\Ta has joined
 594 2014-08-04 11:47:24 <sipa> wumpus: yeah, bitcoin's resource requirements are terrible, especially if you want the video feature
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 596 2014-08-04 11:51:42 <michagogo> um
 597 2014-08-04 11:51:53 <michagogo> What is it supposed to sound like?
 598 2014-08-04 11:52:14 <michagogo> I tried using Audacity's "import raw" thing
 599 2014-08-04 11:52:18 <sipa> if you don't recognize it, it's not what you're supposed to hear
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 601 2014-08-04 11:52:31 <michagogo> yeah, no, it's just this weird squealing
 602 2014-08-04 11:53:13 <michagogo> What's the encoding?
 603 2014-08-04 11:53:24 <michagogo> Default seems to be "Signed 16-bit PCM"
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 605 2014-08-04 11:54:00 <michagogo> Should it be something else? http://i.imgur.com/ZPyc2tq.png
 606 2014-08-04 11:55:22 <dsnrk> bitcoin needs a "matrix" mode where it prints new transaction hashes down the screen in green text.
 607 2014-08-04 11:55:23 Swadq has joined
 608 2014-08-04 11:55:32 <dsnrk> why has nobody made that yet?
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 612 2014-08-04 11:56:49 <sipa> michagogo: try unsigned 8 bit
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 615 2014-08-04 11:58:11 <michagogo> nope
 616 2014-08-04 11:58:29 <sipa> signed 8 bit?
 617 2014-08-04 11:58:31 <sipa> try mono
 618 2014-08-04 11:58:43 <sipa> really, try just all combinations :)
 619 2014-08-04 11:58:44 <michagogo> Here's the file I'm giving it -- created by pasting the hex into HxD https://www.dropbox.com/s/rijrguti1i8lkxt/test_blockchain_data_converted
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 625 2014-08-04 12:01:54 <chichov> which transaction types can be used in conjunction with P2SH?
 626 2014-08-04 12:02:08 <michagogo> chichov: what do you mean by "transaction types"?
 627 2014-08-04 12:02:24 <chichov> P2PK, P2PKH, P2SH, Multisig and Nulldata
 628 2014-08-04 12:02:42 <michagogo> What do you mean by "in conjunction"?
 629 2014-08-04 12:02:55 <chichov> well, it's an embedded type, so you use it together with another type
 630 2014-08-04 12:03:10 <chichov> say P2SH with Multisig
 631 2014-08-04 12:03:19 <michagogo> a P2SH scripthash can be anything
 632 2014-08-04 12:03:26 <chichov> even nulldata? heh
 633 2014-08-04 12:03:32 <michagogo> (well, except for another P2SH -- I don't think you can nest them)
 634 2014-08-04 12:03:52 <chichov> just wondering how that would evaluate
 635 2014-08-04 12:03:53 <michagogo> Yes, you can hash "OP_RETURN <data>" and send to that scripthash
 636 2014-08-04 12:04:03 <michagogo> But that would be pointless
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 638 2014-08-04 12:04:10 <michagogo> Well, FSVO pointless
 639 2014-08-04 12:04:22 <chichov> wow, spendable nulldata transactions
 640 2014-08-04 12:04:24 <michagogo> The data in question would never make it onto the blockchain
 641 2014-08-04 12:04:28 <michagogo> No, not spendable
 642 2014-08-04 12:04:40 <chichov> how come?
 643 2014-08-04 12:04:48 <michagogo> The UTXO wouldn't be spendable, but it wouldn't appear spendable either
 644 2014-08-04 12:05:00 <michagogo> erm, appear unspendable*
 645 2014-08-04 12:05:18 <chichov> hm, you would be able to create a valid tx output with P2SH Nulldata
 646 2014-08-04 12:05:27 <michagogo> what do you mean "valid"
 647 2014-08-04 12:05:35 <chichov> that it would pass all the sanity checks
 648 2014-08-04 12:05:40 <michagogo> What sanity checks?
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 650 2014-08-04 12:06:06 <chichov> transaction output / input script typing, among others
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 652 2014-08-04 12:06:24 <chichov> it would be identified as a simple P2SH transaction
 653 2014-08-04 12:06:27 <michagogo> Um, if you're looking at the transaction/blockchain, the output is just another P2SH
 654 2014-08-04 12:06:32 <chichov> exactly
 655 2014-08-04 12:06:40 <michagogo> No way to know that it's anything different unless you have the script
 656 2014-08-04 12:06:46 <chichov> now, what would happen if you try to create a corresponding input script?
 657 2014-08-04 12:06:56 <michagogo> You can't spend it, though
 658 2014-08-04 12:07:11 <chichov> where would it fail?
 659 2014-08-04 12:07:14 <michagogo> Just like with a non-P2SH OP_RETURN
 660 2014-08-04 12:07:25 <michagogo> At the point that the OP_RETURN is executed
 661 2014-08-04 12:07:34 <chichov> indeed
 662 2014-08-04 12:07:36 <amaclin> chichov, have a look here:http://webbtc.com/stats (line: P2SH Types) I am not sure that OP_RETURN in p2sh is a good idea :)
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 664 2014-08-04 12:08:30 <chichov> michagogo: lemme look that up in the code though
 665 2014-08-04 12:09:24 <michagogo> aha
 666 2014-08-04 12:10:05 <michagogo> Running that `play` command on the linux vps, even though it doesn't have speakers, told me what settings I needed to use for the Audacity import
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 670 2014-08-04 12:11:00 <michagogo> The encoding is "u-law"
 671 2014-08-04 12:11:09 <michagogo> And the sample rate is 8000 hz
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 676 2014-08-04 12:11:47 <amaclin> chichov, another good link about p2sh transactions https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0
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 678 2014-08-04 12:12:10 <michagogo> Though, with the sample rate slowed to 8000Hz, even with other (wrong) encodings, it's identifiable
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 682 2014-08-04 12:14:59 <michagogo> (and at some point, the GUI did unfreeze and print all 2,000,000 characters...)
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 693 2014-08-04 12:17:06 <wumpus> bootstrap.dat as ulaw audio sounds... interesting
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 699 2014-08-04 12:18:51 <wumpus> too noisy for my taste though
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 709 2014-08-04 12:20:25 <michagogo> Sounds like a generator.
 710 2014-08-04 12:21:10 <wumpus> a block generator
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 712 2014-08-04 12:23:50 <kinlo> wumpus: why the hell would you listen to that :)
 713 2014-08-04 12:24:08 <kinlo> are there pools encoding sounds in their blocks? :p
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 717 2014-08-04 12:25:22 <wumpus> kinlo: only on testnet afaik
 718 2014-08-04 12:25:41 <wumpus> kinlo: and I'm not sure there is more than the transactions mentioned above
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 726 2014-08-04 12:29:11 <wumpus> you'd have to listen to the entire block chain in all possible audio formats to be sure :p
 727 2014-08-04 12:30:32 <Graet> then play it backwards to check for satanic messages, how I miss LPs
 728 2014-08-04 12:30:33 <Graet> lol
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 731 2014-08-04 12:30:54 <wumpus> hehehe
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 733 2014-08-04 12:32:00 <amaclin> http://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html
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 741 2014-08-04 12:39:06 <dsnrk> wumpus: listening to it as audio sounds terrible.
 742 2014-08-04 12:39:16 <dsnrk> like the worlds worst chainsaw.
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 746 2014-08-04 12:44:39 <wumpus> bitcoin: the world's worst chainsaw
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 755 2014-08-04 12:56:49 <wumpus> the blockchain isn't interesting to look at with binvis either, looks like ants http://oi58.tinypic.com/aens4l.jpg  (for comparison, bitcoin-qt's executable http://oi61.tinypic.com/25sy9f5.jpg)
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 837 2014-08-04 13:46:46 <gdm85> wumpus: apply despeckle and blur, print on tshirt :)
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 848 2014-08-04 13:52:09 <wumpus> heh... whatever you do, don't do this with your wallet.dat :)
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 864 2014-08-04 14:08:18 <michagogo> What's binvis?
 865 2014-08-04 14:08:50 <michagogo> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcode.google.com%2Fp%2Fbinvis%2F&ei=rJLfU4vZOqKr0QWIqIGIBg&usg=AFQjCNGS4F6JRoyAdC7qXxoe_l2huSzRcg&sig2=3ocAVKEm5DGiOfzkaxtpcw&bvm=bv.72197243,d.bGQ?
 866 2014-08-04 14:08:51 <michagogo> uh
 867 2014-08-04 14:08:57 <michagogo> https://code.google.com/p/binvis/?
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 872 2014-08-04 14:17:51 <wumpus> michagogo: http://corte.si/%2Fposts/visualisation/binvis/index.html
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 875 2014-08-04 14:18:36 <wumpus> the idea is to use a space-filling curve to render a binary stream in 2D while preserving locality
 876 2014-08-04 14:20:25 <wumpus> it makes it easier to see small structures than just dumping it in left-to-right, top-to-bottom fashion
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1013 2014-08-04 16:53:09 <ThomasV> !seen sgnd
1014 2014-08-04 16:53:09 <gribble> I have not seen sgnd.
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1066 2014-08-04 17:49:49 <Diapolo> wumpus: are you on?
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1147 2014-08-04 19:07:55 lodewijkadlp has joined
1148 2014-08-04 19:08:31 <lodewijkadlp> I'm trying to accept, hold and resend Bitcoin on a minimalistic server (I want a thin RPC server)
1149 2014-08-04 19:09:04 <lodewijkadlp> I can probably go-hard-go-deep and just run bitcoind, but last time I did that it wasn't nearly as much fun as it really could be
1150 2014-08-04 19:09:04 Swadq has joined
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1152 2014-08-04 19:10:16 <lodewijkadlp> clues?
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1154 2014-08-04 19:10:53 <sipa> you didn't ask a question :)
1155 2014-08-04 19:11:28 <lodewijkadlp> Ah, but desire makes the world go round. Not the structure of the sentence.
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1157 2014-08-04 19:12:29 <gmaxwell> So, you want to run a server which handled money, presumably for other people, and running bitcoind is too complicated for you?
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1159 2014-08-04 19:12:42 <lodewijkadlp> haha
1160 2014-08-04 19:12:45 <lodewijkadlp> no
1161 2014-08-04 19:12:56 <gmaxwell> Then you might want to elaborate more!
1162 2014-08-04 19:12:59 <lodewijkadlp> it's not about complicated
1163 2014-08-04 19:13:07 <lodewijkadlp> it's about disk space and not doing things I shouldn't be doing
1164 2014-08-04 19:13:37 <lodewijkadlp> all I want to know is "has this address gotten money", "give me an address" and maybe, if I host somewhere secure, send money
1165 2014-08-04 19:13:46 <lodewijkadlp> but that sending of money... that's really not going to happen soon
1166 2014-08-04 19:13:55 <lodewijkadlp> private keys are harder to store than gold
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1168 2014-08-04 19:16:27 <lodewijkadlp> Okay, so, I have this service called bitshops.net. It will host client-side encrypted webshops. Seemed much simpler than it is. Uses AES and NTRUcrypt now, quantum computer proof! Everything is in place up to the point where the Bitcoin stuff really starts happening. You can create, browse, make orders. The orders need to take money. The money should at some point be withdrawn by the storeowners.
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1170 2014-08-04 19:16:44 <lodewijkadlp> It's a pretty simple thing, but it's pretty f-ed up when you're handeling plasma (aka private keys)
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1175 2014-08-04 19:17:38 <lodewijkadlp> At first I'll host from home, I have a good connection. So I'm pretty okay with just having the private keys on the server.
1176 2014-08-04 19:17:59 <lodewijkadlp> I'll keep the money stored down, manually cold wallet it when it seems relevant.
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1182 2014-08-04 19:20:39 <lodewijkadlp> I'd like a trustworthy server that takes the hardship out of Bitcoin server-side services
1183 2014-08-04 19:20:50 <sipa> i think you should reread gmaxwell's question
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1187 2014-08-04 19:22:11 <lodewijkadlp> I'm really not looking for people to call me an amateur
1188 2014-08-04 19:22:27 <lodewijkadlp> instead, I'm looking at ways to mitigate the problems that amateurs have
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1190 2014-08-04 19:22:39 <lodewijkadlp> not in a hard way, but in an easy way
1191 2014-08-04 19:23:09 <lodewijkadlp> In other words, I'd rather cook spaghetty than figure out how to clean mushrooms without using water and ruining them
1192 2014-08-04 19:24:16 <lodewijkadlp> that analogy wasn't that strong, but maybe you get it anyway
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1194 2014-08-04 19:24:30 <lodewijkadlp> better to avoid problems alltogether than to solve them.
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1196 2014-08-04 19:25:03 <lodewijkadlp> the only reason things are insecure in the first place is because they're so hard
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1200 2014-08-04 19:25:35 <lodewijkadlp> anyone can do something hard
1201 2014-08-04 19:25:40 <lodewijkadlp> it's just better not to
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1205 2014-08-04 19:28:44 <lodewijkadlp> sipa, could you tell me what you mean a bit less cryptically?
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1209 2014-08-04 19:32:50 <lodewijkadlp> if someone incapable really does come here with these sort of questions, sent them to coinbase or anything else
1210 2014-08-04 19:33:00 <lodewijkadlp> preferably something else
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1213 2014-08-04 19:33:27 <sipa> sorry, i missed your reply
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1215 2014-08-04 19:36:11 <sipa> lodewijkadlp: i just meant that i didn't see you answered gmaxwell
1216 2014-08-04 19:36:42 <lodewijkadlp> well, he didn't answer anymore later either. Maybe I just triggered an automatic response to noob-like questions.
1217 2014-08-04 19:37:08 <sipa> but really, you're going to be storing money for other people
1218 2014-08-04 19:37:12 <lodewijkadlp> there's also that I'm new generation. Relatively low experience with *nix, more webdev focussed and stuff
1219 2014-08-04 19:37:29 <lodewijkadlp> And I'd like to do it properly.
1220 2014-08-04 19:37:41 <sipa> i'd say you better spend some time trying to understand things
1221 2014-08-04 19:37:48 <lodewijkadlp> be specific
1222 2014-08-04 19:37:53 <lodewijkadlp> then I can spend the time
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1226 2014-08-04 19:38:13 <lodewijkadlp> I think I'll know about almost everything you'll come up with.
1227 2014-08-04 19:38:26 <sipa> well, i suggest (but i'm biased) that you start by getting bitcoind running
1228 2014-08-04 19:38:32 <lodewijkadlp> did it in the past
1229 2014-08-04 19:38:35 <lodewijkadlp> years ago in fact
1230 2014-08-04 19:38:44 <lodewijkadlp> but I don't want bitcoind, I want minimal disk space usage
1231 2014-08-04 19:38:58 <sipa> why?
1232 2014-08-04 19:39:04 <lodewijkadlp> I think less activities is safer activities.
1233 2014-08-04 19:39:16 <lodewijkadlp> I just want to do A, B, C. Don't give me a fat stack with up to Z in it.
1234 2014-08-04 19:39:30 <sipa> if you want to accept money from others, and do it safely, you should at least run a full node you can trust
1235 2014-08-04 19:39:50 <sipa> you don't need to use its wallet - there are many other imomementations these days
1236 2014-08-04 19:39:53 <lodewijkadlp> I also want to be able to separate a public key server from a private key server, for scalability. But that's longer term.
1237 2014-08-04 19:40:15 <lodewijkadlp> running a full node hardly improves security
1238 2014-08-04 19:40:36 <sipa> compared to?
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1240 2014-08-04 19:40:42 <lodewijkadlp> .. depending on the threat model
1241 2014-08-04 19:40:47 <lodewijkadlp> compared to a light client
1242 2014-08-04 19:40:55 <lodewijkadlp> if your connections are good it's just the same
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1245 2014-08-04 19:41:20 <lodewijkadlp> I shouldn't say "hardly improves security", it's a bit too bold.
1246 2014-08-04 19:41:33 <sipa> it depends on the threat model, agree
1247 2014-08-04 19:41:48 <sipa> but is 30gb that much? my phone has more storage...
1248 2014-08-04 19:41:58 <lodewijkadlp> ... yes
1249 2014-08-04 19:41:59 <lodewijkadlp> it is
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1251 2014-08-04 19:42:30 <lodewijkadlp> but it's not just the storage. For me it's the idea that this thing does not exist to support the network, merely to look at it.
1252 2014-08-04 19:42:50 <lodewijkadlp> I'll just run bitcoind
1253 2014-08-04 19:42:58 <lodewijkadlp> seems like there isn't a better solution yet
1254 2014-08-04 19:43:09 <lodewijkadlp> maybe btcd?
1255 2014-08-04 19:43:30 <sipa> i'd still run it behind a bitcoind, but i'm biased as a bitcoind developer
1256 2014-08-04 19:44:06 <sipa> i think there are several more useful wallet implementations out there, and the one in bitcoind is lagging behind
1257 2014-08-04 19:44:22 <sipa> but as a full node, you need it imho
1258 2014-08-04 19:44:27 <dhill> btcd and bitcoind are full node clients.  there is btcwallet, but that requires a btcd node.  adding SPV support to btcwallet is on the todo list.
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1295 2014-08-04 20:18:53 <lianj> anyone recall bip34 switch blocks for mainnet and testnet3?
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1329 2014-08-04 21:10:43 <sipa> E-Rage: you were the one with that testnet block 381 issue, right?
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