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  30 2014-08-06 00:52:55 <alfacent> What does the "C" in CCriticalSection mean? Does it mean current?
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  32 2014-08-06 00:54:48 <alfacent> hi sabfer
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  34 2014-08-06 00:55:13 <alfacent> hi fanquake
  35 2014-08-06 00:55:48 <fanquake> morning
  36 2014-08-06 00:56:13 <alfacent> What does the "C" in CCriticalSection mean? Does it mean current?
  37 2014-08-06 00:56:45 <sabfer> alfacent: hi!
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  58 2014-08-06 01:19:41 <alfacent> What does the "C" in CCriticalSection mean? Does it mean current?
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 132 2014-08-06 03:16:10 <andytoshi> what was the motivation for having a builtin ripemd160 impl? what was used before?
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 140 2014-08-06 03:21:17 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: we're moving in a direction where we'll be able to be built without openssl.
 141 2014-08-06 03:22:02 <gmaxwell> (I think right now we are only missing a random pool, libsecp256k1, and the KDF/crypto for wallet encryption for being able to build bitcoind without openssl)
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 143 2014-08-06 03:25:58 <andytoshi> coolio
 144 2014-08-06 03:26:14 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: so basically migrating the essential cryptographic routines from the libraries into the main source tree?
 145 2014-08-06 03:26:31 <andytoshi> on the rust side of things i am thinking of submitting a ripemd160 implementation to rust-crypto, but i figured i should poke my head in at what you guys were doing..
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 148 2014-08-06 03:29:48 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: certantly a dependency on a standard system library is way better than ... openssl. :)
 149 2014-08-06 03:30:06 <andytoshi> yeah, i'm very much trying to avoid openssl :)
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 151 2014-08-06 03:30:21 <andytoshi> i subscribe to the RSS feed for 'openssl valhalla' and have been horrified over the last several months..
 152 2014-08-06 03:30:56 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: s/libraries/openssl/  and really, our dependencies there are small. Since we're already going to go to libsecp256k1 for performance reasons (>6x faster than openssl), the rest is pretty trivial.
 153 2014-08-06 03:31:51 <gmaxwell> Openssl has also been a huge liability that has had negative consequences for the system in the past (e.g. that all bitcoin nodes must accept invalid signature encodings is a consequence of hidden behavior in openssl)
 154 2014-08-06 03:32:06 <E-Rage> sipa: around?
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 344 2014-08-06 07:34:54 <sipa> ;;later tell alfacent it's old satoshi style, and means 'class'
 345 2014-08-06 07:34:54 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
 346 2014-08-06 07:35:34 <sipa> E-Rage: now i am
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 398 2014-08-06 08:19:41 <wumpus> Jouke_: any updates on #4604?
 399 2014-08-06 08:19:42 jtimon has joined
 400 2014-08-06 08:20:51 <Jouke_> wumpus: I'll try to get back to you later today
 401 2014-08-06 08:21:00 <wumpus> if not I'll try some experiments of myself with json and large data
 402 2014-08-06 08:21:54 <stonecoldpat> wumpus: do you know a good method to convert json tx back to rawtransactions (into hex?)
 403 2014-08-06 08:22:46 oujh has joined
 404 2014-08-06 08:24:03 <wumpus> stonecoldpat: well in general it may not always be losslessly possible, any small change may invalidate the signature, and the re-encoding of parsed data into a transaction hex may encode slightly differently than the original tx
 405 2014-08-06 08:24:19 <wumpus> stonecoldpat: I suggest just storing the hex
 406 2014-08-06 08:25:09 <wumpus> unless you're manipulating transactions that aren't signed yet, then it's a valid use case 
 407 2014-08-06 08:25:25 <stonecoldpat> wumpus: i was about to say yeah i'm modifying transactions before they are signed
 408 2014-08-06 08:25:35 <Jouke_> wumpus: the problem is: I have no experience with gdb
 409 2014-08-06 08:25:38 <stonecoldpat> wumpus: ive been using brainwallet, but would prefer a more uatomated way
 410 2014-08-06 08:26:28 ThomasV has joined
 411 2014-08-06 08:26:38 <wumpus> stonecoldpat: git master includes the 'bitcoin-tx' utility which can be used for manipulating raw transactions
 412 2014-08-06 08:27:14 <stonecoldpat> wumpus: ill check that out now thank you! :)
 413 2014-08-06 08:27:23 <wumpus> Jouke_: I do, but I don't have any large wallets available for testing, but I can of course insert some synthetic data, that will work if it's just a problem with communciation
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 423 2014-08-06 08:44:41 <gdm85> wumpus: I also looked briefly into that, basically with gdb one needs to know also which thread to look at
 424 2014-08-06 08:44:47 <wumpus> Jouke_: ok - managed to reproduce it by making listtransactions return a requested number of random transaction records
 425 2014-08-06 08:45:22 <gdm85> well, looks like you're already used to do that :)
 426 2014-08-06 08:45:40 <wumpus> gdm85: well not necessarily, you can set a breakpoint on listtransactions, and any thread that hits it will trigger that
 427 2014-08-06 08:46:25 <gdm85> wumpus: I honestly admit that too many years of IDEs didn't let my gdb skills advance that far..but yeah, good to know, I will check that in future
 428 2014-08-06 08:46:33 <wumpus> after about 300000 records it starts giving the 'error: no response from server' error, however the time taken to do the query keeps scaling up after that
 429 2014-08-06 08:46:48 gjs278 has joined
 430 2014-08-06 08:46:49 <gdm85> wumpus: you have already an insight on root cause?
 431 2014-08-06 08:47:22 <gdm85> oh, so response time is not linearly increasing? maybe too much memory being allocated?
 432 2014-08-06 08:47:35 <wumpus> gdm85: gdb looks errible initially if you're used to IDEs, however it's one  of the most flexible and powerful debugging tools in existence so it does pay to learn it
 433 2014-08-06 08:48:02 <gdm85> usually with gdb I just go as far to understand where a SEGFAULT is in the source code
 434 2014-08-06 08:48:23 <gdm85> but yeah, I am sure it's one of those valuable "beast" toolkits
 435 2014-08-06 08:48:37 <wumpus> gdm85: not entirely; but it happens *after* the json data structure is built in memory and before writing to the network
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 438 2014-08-06 08:51:06 <gdm85> I thought of memory starvation when I saw this problem, but never checked the source
 439 2014-08-06 08:51:48 <michagogo> ...ayfkm
 440 2014-08-06 08:52:05 <michagogo> gavinandresen cfields wumpus: http://9to5mac.com/2014/08/04/apple-changing-gatekeeper-app-signing-rules-in-os-x-10-9-5-yosemite-could-break-some-apps/
 441 2014-08-06 08:52:21 <gdm85> could also be related to socket timeout values
 442 2014-08-06 08:56:06 <wumpus> I'm fairly sure that isn't it; if it was, the request time would cap out at some point when requestig more data
 443 2014-08-06 08:56:11 mappppum has joined
 444 2014-08-06 08:56:22 <wumpus> instead, it takes more time but returns less (no) data :-)
 445 2014-08-06 08:57:42 <wumpus> anyhow, the RPC system is far from optimized for handling large amounts of data
 446 2014-08-06 08:58:18 <wumpus> for example instead of streaming the JSON data out, it first builds a string and writes that out
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 475 2014-08-06 08:59:16 <gdm85> oh, I see
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 479 2014-08-06 08:59:37 <michagogo> And the debug window is even less optimized :-P
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 482 2014-08-06 08:59:51 <gdm85> probably buffered io would address #4604
 483 2014-08-06 08:59:51 karc has joined
 484 2014-08-06 08:59:55 <wumpus> so even if this issue is fixed, you should regard this as a warning that you're up against the upper scaling limits
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 492 2014-08-06 09:00:40 <wumpus> michagogo: but that's less of a problem, humans aren't optmized to process large amounts of informations either
 493 2014-08-06 09:00:40 <michagogo> Locked up the whole GUI the other day when I tried inadvertently to fetch 2 million hex digits of rickroll
 494 2014-08-06 09:01:06 Sauvin has joined
 495 2014-08-06 09:01:08 <wumpus> michagogo: at a certain point there's just no useful thing to do; maybe we should handle it like numpy and print large arrays abbreviated
 496 2014-08-06 09:01:16 <gdm85> wumpus: indeed
 497 2014-08-06 09:01:30 DiceCoin has joined
 498 2014-08-06 09:01:33 <DiceCoin> Hey
 499 2014-08-06 09:01:38 banghouse has joined
 500 2014-08-06 09:01:44 <michagogo> RPC still worked, but the GUI locked up for several minutes
 501 2014-08-06 09:01:45 <DiceCoin> Can anyone help me?
 502 2014-08-06 09:01:48 <iwilcox> DiceCoin: Your question is off-topic here.
 503 2014-08-06 09:01:54 <DiceCoin> What is?
 504 2014-08-06 09:01:59 <michagogo> wumpus: NAK, if I understand correctly
 505 2014-08-06 09:02:08 <gdm85> iwilcox: his nickname, not the question :P
 506 2014-08-06 09:02:15 <DiceCoin> I havent even asked the question yet.
 507 2014-08-06 09:02:21 <iwilcox> You asked in #bitcoin.
 508 2014-08-06 09:02:22 <michagogo> In many places truncated data is worse than no data at all
 509 2014-08-06 09:02:25 <DiceCoin> Oh
 510 2014-08-06 09:02:29 <DiceCoin> I got no answer there :/
 511 2014-08-06 09:02:37 <michagogo> It should just fail, and not silently.
 512 2014-08-06 09:02:38 <DiceCoin> You dont happen to know iwilcox, do you?
 513 2014-08-06 09:02:39 <wumpus> michagogo: ok, printing no data at all is also acceptable way to handle 'too much data'
 514 2014-08-06 09:02:47 <iwilcox> DiceCoin: You'll get completely ignored here.
 515 2014-08-06 09:02:54 <wumpus> michagogo: but sometimes it's useful to print the first few records with ... after that
 516 2014-08-06 09:03:06 <wumpus> michagogo: that's not 'failing silently'
 517 2014-08-06 09:03:07 <michagogo> wumpus: I guess it depends on the call
 518 2014-08-06 09:03:14 <wumpus> anyhow I don't feel like argueing this
 519 2014-08-06 09:03:24 <wumpus> for some reason I always get into arguments with you about stupid things
 520 2014-08-06 09:03:27 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 521 2014-08-06 09:03:33 <michagogo> Hm?
 522 2014-08-06 09:04:15 <gdm85> iwilcox: I think question needs to be development-related, and about development of the Bitcoin project
 523 2014-08-06 09:04:21 <gdm85> ops.. DiceCoin ^
 524 2014-08-06 09:04:59 <wumpus> michagogo: to be clear I'm talking about what is shown in the GUI, obviously truncating what is returned over the network is not acceptable
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 528 2014-08-06 09:05:55 <michagogo> wumpus: of course.
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 530 2014-08-06 09:06:21 <michagogo> But I think there *is* a limit on the length of the input box
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 532 2014-08-06 09:06:53 <michagogo> Which has annoyed me a few times when a paste got truncated and failed in various weird ways
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 534 2014-08-06 09:07:07 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 535 2014-08-06 09:07:10 <wumpus> yes, there is a limit, I think 64k or so
 536 2014-08-06 09:07:14 <michagogo> (Until I found the ruby class on the wiki for connecting to rpc)
 537 2014-08-06 09:07:43 <wumpus> but it makes sense that Uis have "DoS" limits like that; after that, rendering would become prohobitively slow as well as memory used in font processing etc...
 538 2014-08-06 09:07:58 <michagogo> True
 539 2014-08-06 09:08:17 <michagogo> Truncation is annoying, though, in many cases
 540 2014-08-06 09:08:26 <wumpus> it's better than segfaulting.
 541 2014-08-06 09:08:32 <michagogo> (I guess for some calls it would be fine, but not all)
 542 2014-08-06 09:08:37 <michagogo> wumpus: well, yes
 543 2014-08-06 09:08:51 <michagogo> It's just a question of partial return or no return
 544 2014-08-06 09:08:53 <wumpus> there are always limits to the range of applications for a tool
 545 2014-08-06 09:09:03 roconnor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 546 2014-08-06 09:09:10 <michagogo> Now I just have a batch file that runs irb with a script that sets up the rpc class and the clipboard gem :P
 547 2014-08-06 09:11:28 <wumpus> what could work is a multi-line input
 548 2014-08-06 09:11:42 ronkrt1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 549 2014-08-06 09:11:54 <wumpus> qt can handle quite large buffers providing not everything is on one line
 550 2014-08-06 09:12:30 ronkrt1 has joined
 551 2014-08-06 09:12:59 <wumpus> or you could add a warning box if the limit is hit
 552 2014-08-06 09:13:43 mr_burdell has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 553 2014-08-06 09:14:52 <wumpus> or detect large pastes and show just (large data), where the actual data is not shown but only inserted when you hit enter, you may need to immplement your own input widget for that though
 554 2014-08-06 09:15:31 <wumpus> you could do the same when large data is returned, just show a 'copy to clipboard' button but not the actual data
 555 2014-08-06 09:16:06 mr_burdell has joined
 556 2014-08-06 09:18:39 <michagogo> wumpus: now that's an idea
 557 2014-08-06 09:19:17 <michagogo> Though maybe an option to open a pop-up with a larger text box with the whole thing? *shrug*
 558 2014-08-06 09:19:19 <michagogo> I
 559 2014-08-06 09:19:28 <wumpus> maybe add a 'send to soundcard' button too ;-)
 560 2014-08-06 09:19:32 <michagogo> I mean, you can always just paste into notepad or something
 561 2014-08-06 09:19:40 <michagogo> wumpus: :P
 562 2014-08-06 09:20:01 <sipa> wumpus: and have an 'upgrade to bitcoin core pro' button which enables 'send to videocard' ?
 563 2014-08-06 09:20:28 <michagogo> wumpus: how about a "send to sound card" option special-cased for that specific getrawtransaction
 564 2014-08-06 09:20:31 <wumpus> sipa: hahahhaa, yes, now in 3D
 565 2014-08-06 09:20:44 <michagogo> Ooh, I know!
 566 2014-08-06 09:20:48 * dsnrk thinks the RPC console is too user accessible anyway
 567 2014-08-06 09:21:06 <michagogo> Use a DHT to track transactions that should have the sound card option!
 568 2014-08-06 09:21:10 * michagogo runs away
 569 2014-08-06 09:21:14 <wumpus> dsnrk: there should at least be an alcohol lock on it! :p
 570 2014-08-06 09:21:39 <sipa> yeah, there should be a 2048 game you need to win to unlock it
 571 2014-08-06 09:21:46 <wumpus> make people solve a few simple equations first, and draw a straight line, before openining it
 572 2014-08-06 09:21:47 <wumpus> or that
 573 2014-08-06 09:21:59 <sipa> also, to use as entropy source for keygen
 574 2014-08-06 09:22:07 <dsnrk> wumpus: well, yes. it's an unpopular opinion but there's a lot of casual instructions "just go here and type dumpprivkey in the window.." which lead to some easy footgunning.
 575 2014-08-06 09:22:44 MiamiDDS has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 576 2014-08-06 09:22:51 <michagogo> One possibility would be to define a set of "dangerous" RPCs that are only available with a config option
 577 2014-08-06 09:23:42 <dsnrk> if/when BIP32 makes it into the client the dumpprivkey RPC should be disabled, certainly.
 578 2014-08-06 09:23:45 <michagogo> (I think this conversation may have already happened$
 579 2014-08-06 09:23:58 <michagogo> s/\$/)/
 580 2014-08-06 09:24:06 <wumpus> dsnrk: I agree with you on one hand, but on the other hand, I want the powerful options to be available for developers and such easily
 581 2014-08-06 09:24:19 <wumpus> dsnrk: bitcoin-qt isn't really for casual users anyway
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 583 2014-08-06 09:24:52 <dsnrk> wumpus: at the moment it's the only client that's not doing security stupid things, I'd prefer to be able to recommend it.
 584 2014-08-06 09:25:18 <wumpus> dsnrk: that said, I'm ok with adding a big ugly warning to the debug console, I mean even firefox has a 'this breaks your warranty', then again we have no warranty either way :P
 585 2014-08-06 09:25:48 <wumpus> the send tab is just as dangerous...
 586 2014-08-06 09:26:01 mappum has joined
 587 2014-08-06 09:26:19 <wumpus> send to the wrong person, or send the wrong amount, etc... it's not a program you want to use if you're drunk or clueless
 588 2014-08-06 09:26:27 <dsnrk> I disagree. a user on reddit before was being told it was OK to export a private key from his electrum wallet and import it into a blockchain.info wallet.
 589 2014-08-06 09:26:47 <dsnrk> which is just pure mouth-foaming insanity.
 590 2014-08-06 09:27:04 <wumpus> at least the wallet isn't... a node-only bitcoind is quite safe to play around with
 591 2014-08-06 09:27:31 <dsnrk> the fact that people aren't scared of private keys but are of sending says something is horribly wrong with the way interfaces work.
 592 2014-08-06 09:27:40 <michagogo> dsnrk: +1
 593 2014-08-06 09:28:13 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 594 2014-08-06 09:29:21 <wumpus> or even worse, forget that you made your backup 100 transactions ago and not 99...
 595 2014-08-06 09:30:05 Aido_ has joined
 596 2014-08-06 09:30:20 <dsnrk> so make the keypool 9999999. that's nothing compared with people blasting away their coins into change addresses they don't know they own.
 597 2014-08-06 09:30:30 <wumpus> it's like a whole weapon arsenal aimed at your foot
 598 2014-08-06 09:32:22 Aido has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 599 2014-08-06 09:32:38 haskoiner has quit (Quit: haskoiner)
 600 2014-08-06 09:33:01 <dsnrk> wallet software is like victorian machinery. big spinning wheels and gears everywhere ready to take your head off.
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 603 2014-08-06 09:33:54 <wumpus> dsnrk: anyhow, if want to make the wallet UI safer, contributions in that regard are certainly welcome
 604 2014-08-06 09:34:31 <wumpus> dsnrk: exactly
 605 2014-08-06 09:35:14 <dsnrk> wumpus: I'll add it to my wish list.
 606 2014-08-06 09:36:01 <sipa> a node-only bitcoind has no secret data :)
 607 2014-08-06 09:36:47 <wumpus> sipa: yes, it's so refreshing
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 612 2014-08-06 09:39:21 <michagogo> sipa: well, except the IP addresses of its peers :-P
 613 2014-08-06 09:40:08 <dsnrk> and the contents of SPV peers wallets.
 614 2014-08-06 09:41:36 <wumpus> that's private data, but not 'secret' as such
 615 2014-08-06 09:42:21 <dsnrk> still wouldn't make people happy if you captured and published it.
 616 2014-08-06 09:42:33 <wumpus> after all, data revealed to random peers cannot really be considered secret
 617 2014-08-06 09:43:58 <dsnrk> wonder if people know it's not secret.
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 624 2014-08-06 09:52:58 <dsnrk> no that's silly. people still don't think that blockchain.info can steal from their wallet at will.
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 628 2014-08-06 09:59:12 <Belxjander> dsnrk: well considering the semi random narture of wallet generation...
 629 2014-08-06 09:59:19 haskoiner has joined
 630 2014-08-06 09:59:52 <dsnrk> semi random?
 631 2014-08-06 10:00:03 <Belxjander> I wonder how hard it would be for partial reversal of addresses against inputs and "tag" people that way following the money
 632 2014-08-06 10:00:26 <Belxjander> dsnrk: I don't consider any digital prng to be truly ransdom
 633 2014-08-06 10:00:39 <sipa> no, it's pseudo random :)
 634 2014-08-06 10:00:45 <sipa> you know, the P stands for pseudo :p
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 636 2014-08-06 10:01:53 <dsnrk> Belxjander: we all know blockchain.info's random is often anything but.
 637 2014-08-06 10:02:09 <dsnrk> Belxjander: check their commit log and you'll see their latest fumble.
 638 2014-08-06 10:03:29 <sipa> Belxjander: do you mean that semirandomness of keys could be used to help tracking coins?
 639 2014-08-06 10:03:37 <sipa> s/coins/identities/
 640 2014-08-06 10:04:30 <dsnrk> knowing the private key doesn't help you find anything about the owner.
 641 2014-08-06 10:04:42 <dsnrk> there's much, much easier ways to identify people in Bitcoin.
 642 2014-08-06 10:05:52 <dsnrk> google does the job most of the time.
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 646 2014-08-06 10:10:44 <wumpus> how would that work anyway? even *if* you could detect a pattern in the randomness of the private keys, that wouldn't translate to a detectable pattern in the public keys used
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 653 2014-08-06 10:11:29 <Belxjander> wumpus: not interested in the patterns so much as making a whole massive amount of keys and seeing if any pubkey addresses would map to existing addresses
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 657 2014-08-06 10:11:54 <gmaxwell> if someone is guessing your private keys you have problems worse than privacy…
 658 2014-08-06 10:12:01 <wumpus> exactly
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 662 2014-08-06 10:12:19 <Belxjander> well my own keys have been updated twice already
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 664 2014-08-06 10:12:32 <Belxjander> along with the address space attached
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 678 2014-08-06 10:14:01 <dsnrk> huh>
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 779 2014-08-06 12:25:29 <gdm85> wumpus: regarding limits of an application: buffered IO solves that nicely
 780 2014-08-06 12:25:56 <gdm85> and I politely disagree that truncation should be acceptable :P better an error than a lie
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 782 2014-08-06 12:26:46 <wumpus> gdm85: what are you talking about?
 783 2014-08-06 12:27:08 <wumpus> gdm85: oh, did you read the context of my statements at all?
 784 2014-08-06 12:27:24 <gdm85> wumpus: you were talking about the qt gui debug window, right?
 785 2014-08-06 12:28:12 <wumpus> for example, if in numpy you have a very large matrix, and you accidentally try to print it in the CLI, you get the outer numbers (or first few rows) with the rest interposed with ...
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 787 2014-08-06 12:29:07 <wumpus> I think that's a good way of handling unwieldy-large data in a user interface, instead of scrolling for days to print it all...
 788 2014-08-06 12:29:16 <gdm85> I was referring to data truncation in API responses, or also in UI without the ellipsis hint of truncation '...'
 789 2014-08-06 12:29:23 <gdm85> that would not be acceptable to me, but in that case yeah it's fine
 790 2014-08-06 12:29:28 <wumpus> but anyhow, if you have a better implementation I look forward to it, I don't like discussing things like this
 791 2014-08-06 12:29:30 <gdm85> you cannot clog up a textbox with too much input
 792 2014-08-06 12:30:05 <gdm85> yeah sorry I was not clear
 793 2014-08-06 12:30:05 <wumpus> of course you cannot pull the same thing on the network RPC, but I even said that literally.
 794 2014-08-06 12:30:17 <gdm85> sure
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 801 2014-08-06 12:42:08 <wumpus> gdm85: anyhow, did you see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4640 ?
 802 2014-08-06 12:42:44 <Jouke_> wumpus: building as we speak :)
 803 2014-08-06 12:43:24 <gdm85> wumpus: no, I didn't! nice. that sets a hard limit as I see
 804 2014-08-06 12:43:25 <wumpus> ok :)
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 806 2014-08-06 12:43:37 <wumpus> gdm85: no, it removes the limit
 807 2014-08-06 12:44:03 <wumpus> it was using the server-side DoS check on the client side as well, which made no sense
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 809 2014-08-06 12:44:07 <gdm85> oh
 810 2014-08-06 12:44:30 <wumpus> 'hey, I requested too much data, let's return an error!' :p
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 812 2014-08-06 12:45:24 <gmaxwell> lol
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 814 2014-08-06 12:45:44 <gmaxwell> "help! it did what I asked for! I'm being attacked!"
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 816 2014-08-06 12:49:32 <gdm85> wumpus: one could also replace those "return HTTP_INTERNAL_SERVER_ERROR" with proper client-side errors (I know, PRs are welcome... :)
 817 2014-08-06 12:50:01 <gdm85> although trivial, that would still be an improvement right?
 818 2014-08-06 12:51:42 <wumpus> gdm85: but it never gets there anymore for the client
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 820 2014-08-06 12:52:05 <gdm85> ah, ok
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 826 2014-08-06 12:56:49 <wumpus> eh and it seems that the return value of ReadHTTPMessage is completely ignored, both by the server and the client
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 831 2014-08-06 13:01:46 <wumpus> c++ has such a lovely jumble of different error-handling paradigms
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 837 2014-08-06 13:08:18 <wumpus> you never know what you'll get, will it raise an exception, return an error code, return an error object, or are we old-fashioned and do we set a global errno, or if you're feeling really adventurous, setjmp/longjmp! (no, luckily we don't use the latter one in bitcoind, but some libraries such as libpng use it)... and that's only in its fairly short history, I'm sure it will gain more if we just give it a few more years :-)
 838 2014-08-06 13:10:00 <gmaxwell> I recently encountered a library with a whole callback setup that used setjmp longjmp, not just error handling.
 839 2014-08-06 13:10:59 <wumpus> a co-routine emulation maybe?
 840 2014-08-06 13:12:18 <gmaxwell> yes, pretty much, though it used it everywhere, even for things which really were just callbacks.
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 842 2014-08-06 13:14:43 <Jouke_> wumpus: I can fetch all the transactions with your PR :)
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 844 2014-08-06 13:14:50 <wumpus> there are some very interesting applications for setjmp/longjmp, although it gets quite unreadable
 845 2014-08-06 13:14:55 <wumpus> Jouke_: cool
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 850 2014-08-06 13:22:15 <chichov> uhm, how did I get a std::vector<unsigned char> or something similar from CPubKey?
 851 2014-08-06 13:23:08 <sipa> to do what?
 852 2014-08-06 13:23:25 <sipa> (not that that's a bad idea, but maybe you don't need to)
 853 2014-08-06 13:23:47 <chichov> I need a byte array for arbitrary modifications
 854 2014-08-06 13:23:55 <chichov> or a hex string, for that matter
 855 2014-08-06 13:24:03 <wumpus> chichov: std::vector<unsigned char> bla(pubkey.begin(), pubkey.end())
 856 2014-08-06 13:24:11 <chichov> wumpus: much obliged
 857 2014-08-06 13:24:23 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, <puke>
 858 2014-08-06 13:25:29 <gdm85> gmaxwell: was that some UPX compressor?
 859 2014-08-06 13:25:41 <gmaxwell> no, computer algebra system
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 867 2014-08-06 13:38:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Those sorts of libraries were the bane of my existence, when I worked for MandrakeSoft.  I was building -every- package for 64-bit Alpha CPUs, new at the time.  Any idiocy like longjmp would require manual intervention and porting.
 868 2014-08-06 13:38:33 <jgarzik> interpreters that did games like building userspace trampolines were a nightmare
 869 2014-08-06 13:38:49 <jgarzik> longjmp city, though at least they had a reason
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 871 2014-08-06 13:38:55 <gdm85> jgarzik: packages with assembly in their sources?
 872 2014-08-06 13:39:25 <jgarzik> gdm85, longjmp is a C routine
 873 2014-08-06 13:40:22 <wumpus> trampolines are lots of fun, especially when stacks became non-executable
 874 2014-08-06 13:40:25 <gdm85> jgarzik: ah, yes, now I remember
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 877 2014-08-06 13:43:27 <gmaxwell> wumpus: alas for my GCC nested functions!
 878 2014-08-06 13:44:43 <gmaxwell> (no, I've never actually used them— but I've wished their implementation wasn't awful before so that I could have used them)
 879 2014-08-06 13:44:52 <wumpus> gmaxwell: oh no!
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 928 2014-08-06 14:57:03 <cfields> michagogo: re signing, i've got a tree around somewhere that prepares us for that stuff
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 930 2014-08-06 14:58:57 <wumpus> sipa: so #4498 only adds the policy now; I hadn't noticed that change
 931 2014-08-06 14:59:40 <wumpus> thought it also transformed a few files
 932 2014-08-06 14:59:46 <warren> btw, did secp256k1 get in yet?
 933 2014-08-06 14:59:52 <wumpus> warren: no
 934 2014-08-06 14:59:58 <warren> any PR?
 935 2014-08-06 15:00:12 <wumpus> cfields has a tree for it, but no PR
 936 2014-08-06 15:00:30 <warren> why no PR?
 937 2014-08-06 15:00:39 <wumpus> because it's not intended to be added yet
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 939 2014-08-06 15:01:42 <sipa> soon
 940 2014-08-06 15:01:47 <cfields> wumpus: heard anything about font corruption on recent osx builds?
 941 2014-08-06 15:02:04 <wumpus> cfields: none at all
 942 2014-08-06 15:02:11 <cfields> ok
 943 2014-08-06 15:02:11 <warren> cfields: retina or non?
 944 2014-08-06 15:02:24 <wumpus> cfields: did anything change there recently?
 945 2014-08-06 15:02:35 <cfields> 10.9 retina
 946 2014-08-06 15:02:42 <wumpus> I mean, after the 0.9.2.1 fix
 947 2014-08-06 15:02:47 <cfields> wumpus: seems to have to do with the unicode slim spaces
 948 2014-08-06 15:03:16 <wumpus> cfields: they're not slim, or they're not spaces?
 949 2014-08-06 15:03:18 <sipa> wumpus: i moved the 'preview' part to a separate branch
 950 2014-08-06 15:03:19 <cfields> wumpus: i'm still trying to track down the exact issue, but i think i'm going to leave it as a TODO for the deps. I suspect that current gitian builds suffer as well.
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 953 2014-08-06 15:03:58 <wumpus> sipa: ok, makes sense
 954 2014-08-06 15:04:04 <cfields> wumpus: they're boxes, like the font can't find the character
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 956 2014-08-06 15:04:15 <wumpus> cfields: how lame :/
 957 2014-08-06 15:04:42 <cfields> wumpus: seems to have to do with the default font selection (again) for osx mavericks. I'm guessing it's probably only visible there
 958 2014-08-06 15:05:10 <cfields> also, it doesn't happen when I build native on my 10.9 machine. May have to do with using an SDK that's too low
 959 2014-08-06 15:05:14 <wumpus> cfields: it feels to me that macosx really made a regression there
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 961 2014-08-06 15:05:53 <wumpus> even the most trivial things like Typewriter fonts or spaces start breaking down
 962 2014-08-06 15:05:56 <cfields> wumpus: yea, they switched around their font handling to cope with retina, and it seems they didn't account for some necessary back-compat
 963 2014-08-06 15:06:37 <cfields> for example, forcing "Courier" as the label fonts makes it work. So it must have to do with the font selection/fallback mechanisms in qt
 964 2014-08-06 15:07:14 <cfields> also, qt 5.3[.1] fixed a bunch of osx/mavericks/font bugs. But no luck there, same problem
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 966 2014-08-06 15:10:19 <wumpus> it's unfortunate that we have to work around this on a case-by-case basis, can't we force Qt to pick a different default font on mac?
 967 2014-08-06 15:10:55 <cfields> yea, if we decide that's the way to go. Still trying to track down where the actual bug lies
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 969 2014-08-06 15:15:27 <cfields> wumpus: do we choose the default font anywhere? I've grepped and it doesn't look that way, just want to make sure I'm not overlooking some qt'ism (xml) somewhere
 970 2014-08-06 15:15:32 <jgarzik> wumpus, sipa: what are the remaining blockers for adding libsecp256k1 to bitcoin tree, with build-default-disabled?
 971 2014-08-06 15:16:49 <wumpus> cfields: no, we don't change that, I had hoped the operating system would make sane choices there
 972 2014-08-06 15:16:57 <cfields> ok, thanks
 973 2014-08-06 15:17:06 <wumpus> cfields: the closest we get it setting a font hint, for the addreesses
 974 2014-08-06 15:17:12 <cfields> right
 975 2014-08-06 15:18:04 <wumpus> jgarzik: I'm not sure, but I leave it up to sipa
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 990 2014-08-06 15:49:48 <cfields> wumpus: ugh, building against 10.8 sdk fixes
 991 2014-08-06 15:51:04 <wumpus> cfields: woohoo
 992 2014-08-06 15:51:57 <cfields> heh, just when i thought i had the deps stuff finished up. Will see what the implications of bumping are
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 994 2014-08-06 15:56:25 <wumpus> I think we already bumped the sdk once for this 'retina' compatibility :(
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 996 2014-08-06 15:56:54 <wumpus> sometimes feels like we're going in circles
 997 2014-08-06 15:57:00 <wumpus> stupid macs
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 999 2014-08-06 15:57:29 <cfields> yea
1000 2014-08-06 15:57:39 <cfields> i tried 10.8 at the time and everything seemed to work fine
1001 2014-08-06 15:57:52 <cfields> decided to go with 10.7 for the sake of not changing too much at once
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1003 2014-08-06 15:58:56 <cfields> looking back, that was probably the wrong call
1004 2014-08-06 16:00:41 <wumpus> well no one would sanely expect this
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1034 2014-08-06 16:38:10 <Guest14323> is there an OP_CHECKMULTISIG expert here?
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1042 2014-08-06 16:46:28 <justanotheruser> Guest14323: what is your question? It's probably better in #bitcoin
1043 2014-08-06 16:50:51 <Guest14323> #bitcoin is way too busy. I have 2of3 multisig, merchant, consumer, and arbiter. There will be three distince tx: a) consumer pays merchant, b) arbiter pays merchant, and c) arbiter pays consumer. Arbiter also pays himself when he is involved.
1044 2014-08-06 16:51:35 <Guest14323> Can I have different combinations in the outputs of each tx whereby one public key is all zeros?
1045 2014-08-06 16:51:58 <Guest14323> Thereby disallowing the signing of one public key?
1046 2014-08-06 16:52:26 <sipa> then just remove it?
1047 2014-08-06 16:52:33 <sipa> and do signing with one key less
1048 2014-08-06 16:52:44 <Guest14323> So for example, the merchant and the arbiter could sign one tx but the consumer couldn't sign it>
1049 2014-08-06 16:52:46 <Guest14323> ?
1050 2014-08-06 16:53:02 <sipa> you need to know the public keys of the signers before the crediting payment
1051 2014-08-06 16:53:06 <sipa> you can't change the keys afterwards
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1054 2014-08-06 16:55:10 <Guest14323> the output script would normally be OP_2 PubM PubC PubA OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
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1056 2014-08-06 16:56:16 <Guest14323> can I have OP_2 PubM 0 PubA OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG on the tx that pays the merchant?
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1066 2014-08-06 17:18:57 <maraoz> gmaxwell: could you assign a bip number to https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/89 please? BIP-0045 if possible.
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1074 2014-08-06 17:23:09 <gmaxwell> maraoz: oh wow, I had no idea that was waiting.
1075 2014-08-06 17:23:16 <gmaxwell> Did I miss an email?
1076 2014-08-06 17:24:27 <maraoz> I sent you two emails (May 28 and Jul 10). There's no rush anyway, but having a number would help (our current implementation is using 45 as the purpose number in the BIP32 structure)
1077 2014-08-06 17:24:36 brson has joined
1078 2014-08-06 17:25:04 <maraoz> gmaxwell@gmail.com right?
1079 2014-08-06 17:26:09 <gmaxwell> yea. Weird. I see the emails from you in gmail unread.
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1087 2014-08-06 17:31:45 <maraoz> gmaxwell: no problem.
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1099 2014-08-06 17:41:35 <michagogo> 17:51:40 <cfields> michagogo: re signing, i've got a tree around somewhere that prepares us for that stuff <-- after linking the article, I looked at the actual Apple doc on the change
1100 2014-08-06 17:41:55 <michagogo> Looks like, despite what the article said, there's no need to build with Mavericks or anything like that
1101 2014-08-06 17:42:05 <michagogo> It just needs to be signed on there
1102 2014-08-06 17:42:11 <michagogo> (I hope Gavin has Mavericks...)
1103 2014-08-06 17:42:32 <cfields> michagogo: it has to be reorganized though
1104 2014-08-06 17:42:40 <michagogo> ah, does it?
1105 2014-08-06 17:42:51 * michagogo looks again
1106 2014-08-06 17:43:13 <cfields> yea, frameworks have to be signed per-version
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1108 2014-08-06 17:43:18 <cfields> and a few other little nits
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1111 2014-08-06 17:45:36 <michagogo> 19:50:52 <Guest14323> can I have OP_2 PubM 0 PubA OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG on the tx that pays the merchant?
1112 2014-08-06 17:45:50 <michagogo> Uh, that's identical to OP_2 PubM PubA OP_2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
1113 2014-08-06 17:46:18 <Guest14323> thx
1114 2014-08-06 17:46:23 <michagogo> And the scriptPubKey (the conditions for spending the output) are set when you send funds to the multisig address
1115 2014-08-06 17:46:34 closer has joined
1116 2014-08-06 17:46:35 <Guest14323> right
1117 2014-08-06 17:46:38 <michagogo> Guest14323: I'm not sure what you're trying to do here,
1118 2014-08-06 17:46:48 <michagogo> See the last part of the topic, please.
1119 2014-08-06 17:47:18 <Guest14323> have multiple spend tx from the same multisig address. the contract can have different outcomes where some parties don't get paid
1120 2014-08-06 17:48:30 <michagogo> Uh, no. If you send to a multisig address of 2-of-[M,C,A] then those funds can be spent by any 2 of them
1121 2014-08-06 17:49:11 <michagogo> Guest14323: But zoom out. What are you planning to use this transaction for?
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1127 2014-08-06 17:51:50 <Guest14323> the multisig address contains payout funds for a contract. the contract can have multiple outcomes, so there is a separate tx for each outcome.
1128 2014-08-06 17:52:26 <Guest14323> the default tx requires signatures from UserA and UserB.
1129 2014-08-06 17:53:19 <Guest14323> the other require a sig from either UserA OR UserB and and arbiter.
1130 2014-08-06 17:53:29 <Guest14323> *the others*
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1132 2014-08-06 17:53:48 <michagogo> Guest14323: uh, I'm not sure you fully understand how multisig works. You fund the multisig address. Once you do that, the funds can be spent either by both users or by either user and the arbiter.
1133 2014-08-06 17:54:10 <michagogo> When the outcome is determined, if both users agree on the outcome, you create the relevant transaction and sign it
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1135 2014-08-06 17:54:36 <michagogo> If there's a dispute, you get the arbiter involved, you create the relevant transaction, and the arbiter and one of the users sign it
1136 2014-08-06 17:54:57 <michagogo> Guest14323: take a look at http://testnet.bitrated.com/
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1138 2014-08-06 17:55:03 <Guest14323> the arbiter has two tx, one pays funds to UserA and himself, the other pays UserB and himself
1139 2014-08-06 17:55:17 <michagogo> That's a site that does exactly what you're looking for, it sounds like
1140 2014-08-06 17:55:29 <michagogo> Guest14323: Neither of those transactions needs to exist unless there's a dispute
1141 2014-08-06 17:55:38 <michagogo> You don't need to create those yourself
1142 2014-08-06 17:56:07 <Guest14323> but all tx are created when the multisig is funded, and all parties have access to all tx
1143 2014-08-06 17:56:23 <michagogo> Why do you think you need to create all the transactions when the multisig is funded?
1144 2014-08-06 17:56:28 <Guest14323> so i'm trying to limit who can sign what tx
1145 2014-08-06 17:56:33 <michagogo> Anyone can create a transaction
1146 2014-08-06 17:57:16 <Guest14323> the contract is finalized and all spend tx are created when the multisig is funded
1147 2014-08-06 17:57:21 <michagogo> Literally anyone can create a transaction that says "spend this output and create these outputs". It's the signing that you need the keys for
1148 2014-08-06 17:57:33 <Guest14323> correct
1149 2014-08-06 17:57:41 <michagogo> Again, WHY do you think you need to create any spending transactions in advance?
1150 2014-08-06 17:58:17 <michagogo> You don't.
1151 2014-08-06 17:58:44 <michagogo> When the time comes to spend, whether that's to the merchant, or a refund back to the user, that's when you create the transaction
1152 2014-08-06 17:58:59 <Guest14323> because the tx that pays UserA will be signed by UserA and then forwarded to UserB. if the contract resolves in UserA's favor then UserB will isgn it.
1153 2014-08-06 17:59:21 <Guest14323> if UserB doesn't sign then it goes to arbitration
1154 2014-08-06 17:59:26 <michagogo> If you need the arbitrater, when a decision is made, you go ahead and create the transaction paying one user and the arbitrator
1155 2014-08-06 17:59:37 <Guest14323> and visa versa UserB/UserA
1156 2014-08-06 17:59:48 <michagogo> Guest14323: You haven't explained to me what's wrong with creating the transaction when it's time to spend
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1158 2014-08-06 18:00:17 <Guest14323> because one or both users may not be present. think Bitmessage
1159 2014-08-06 18:00:58 <Guest14323> everything except the signing must be put in place when the contract is finalized
1160 2014-08-06 18:01:12 <Guest14323> so all parties have all payout tx
1161 2014-08-06 18:01:21 <michagogo> Okay, I see
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1164 2014-08-06 18:01:34 <michagogo> But what do you mean by "restricting who can sign"?
1165 2014-08-06 18:02:01 <michagogo> You just create transactions spending to userA and to userB, each user signs their own and sends it to the other
1166 2014-08-06 18:02:07 <Guest14323> because I don't want UserB signing a payout that isn't his
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1168 2014-08-06 18:02:12 <michagogo> Uh?
1169 2014-08-06 18:02:22 <michagogo> What do you mean?
1170 2014-08-06 18:02:51 <michagogo> As in, you don't want userB to sign a payout that's not to himself? o_O
1171 2014-08-06 18:03:03 <michagogo> Why would userB do that?
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1173 2014-08-06 18:04:02 * midnightmagic points at #bitcoin :-)
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1180 2014-08-06 18:09:53 <Guest14323> michagogo: because each of the spend tx distribute the funds in a different manner. one spend doesn't pay anything to UserB (because he defaulted). I don't want him signing some other spend tx that gives him a partial payment.
1181 2014-08-06 18:10:32 <michagogo> Guest14323: Uh. His signature alone doesn't give him anything.
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1183 2014-08-06 18:11:26 <michagogo> A spend that gives him partial payment will only be signed if UserA agrees, or if the arbitrator agrees.
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1185 2014-08-06 18:11:43 <michagogo> You just need to trust the arbitrator to do the right thing.
1186 2014-08-06 18:11:51 <Guest14323> Understand, but some tx are partially signed when the contract is finalized. One or more parties need not be present a the conclusion.
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1189 2014-08-06 18:13:18 <Guest14323> So the main tx will be signed by UserA AND UserB, the others will be signed by some combination of (UserA OR UserX) or (UserB OR UserX)
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1191 2014-08-06 18:13:32 <Guest14323> the multisig is 2of5
1192 2014-08-06 18:14:19 <michagogo> Guest14323: we should do as midnightmagic suggests and move to #bitcoin
1193 2014-08-06 18:14:22 <Guest14323> but what you said earlier solves my problem: ichagogo> Uh, that's identical to OP_2 PubM PubA OP_2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
1194 2014-08-06 18:14:34 <cfields> wumpus: got it fixed without bumping the sdk. will PR it. we can evaluate an sdk bump later.
1195 2014-08-06 18:14:35 <Guest14323> i think i'm done here
1196 2014-08-06 18:14:42 <michagogo> Guest14323: no, wait
1197 2014-08-06 18:15:04 <michagogo> That OP_2 PubM PubA OP_2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG needs to be selected at the time you fund it
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1200 2014-08-06 18:16:55 <Guest14323> ok then I'm back to OP_2 pubA <zeros> pubB OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG
1201 2014-08-06 18:17:08 <Guest14323> for 2of3
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1205 2014-08-06 18:17:12 <michagogo> ....no
1206 2014-08-06 18:17:27 <michagogo> OP_2 pubA <zeros> pubB OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG is identical to OP_2 PubM PubA OP_2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG, as I said earlier
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1208 2014-08-06 18:19:13 <sipa> Guest14323: that's identical to OP_2 pubA pubB OP_2
1209 2014-08-06 18:19:34 <sipa> oh, sorry, missed michagogo's sentence
1210 2014-08-06 18:20:53 <Guest14323> when i createmultisig, i'll use all three pub keys. will OP_2 pubA <zeros> pubB OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG allow sigs from #1 and #3, or will it break? i guess this is something I should model on testnet
1211 2014-08-06 18:21:11 <sipa> Guest14323: that will change the p2sh address
1212 2014-08-06 18:21:17 <sipa> you cannot change the keys after the fact
1213 2014-08-06 18:21:24 <michagogo> Again. "OP_2 pubA <zeros> pubB OP_3 OP_CHECKMULTISIG" does EXACTLY the same thing as "OP_2 PubA PubB OP_2 OP_CHECKMULTISIG"
1214 2014-08-06 18:21:34 <michagogo> A P2SH address is for a single script
1215 2014-08-06 18:21:36 <sipa> except for having a different p2sh address
1216 2014-08-06 18:21:51 <michagogo> At the time you fund the multisig, the spending conditions are set in e-stone.
1217 2014-08-06 18:22:12 <Guest14323> but this is spending the multisig
1218 2014-08-06 18:22:16 <michagogo> right
1219 2014-08-06 18:22:26 <michagogo> At the time you fund the multisig, the conditions to spend from the multisig are set in e-stone.
1220 2014-08-06 18:22:31 <sipa> yes, the script when spending has to match the conditions set when crediting
1221 2014-08-06 18:23:06 <Guest14323> so if it's 2of5 then all 5 pubkey must be present in the output of the funding tx
1222 2014-08-06 18:23:14 <michagogo> It's like saying "I'm spending to an address, why can't I use a different pubkey when I spend that?"
1223 2014-08-06 18:23:15 <sipa> no
1224 2014-08-06 18:23:21 <michagogo> No
1225 2014-08-06 18:23:22 <sipa> but they have to be present in the spending script
1226 2014-08-06 18:23:28 <michagogo> All 5 pubkeys are present in the input of the spending tx
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1229 2014-08-06 18:24:03 <michagogo> What's present in the output of the funding TX is the hash of "OP_2 pubA ... pubE OP_5 OP_CHECKMULTISIG"
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1231 2014-08-06 18:24:26 <michagogo> And then when spending, you must provide that string again, and satisfy it.
1232 2014-08-06 18:24:29 <Guest14323> sigs are present in the input os the spending tx
1233 2014-08-06 18:24:37 <Guest14323> *of*
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1236 2014-08-06 18:24:46 <michagogo> Yes, they are, along with the pubkeys
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1238 2014-08-06 18:24:56 <michagogo> Or rather, before the pubkeys.
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1240 2014-08-06 18:25:48 <michagogo> The input of the spending tx will consist of [sig1] [sig2] [OP_2 pubA ... pubE OP_5 OP_CHECKMULTISIG]
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1471 2014-08-06 23:06:24 iii has joined
1472 2014-08-06 23:07:57 <iii> hello, any Bitcoin developer out there?
1473 2014-08-06 23:07:58 SpicyShibe has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1474 2014-08-06 23:09:40 <iii> i'm looking for one or more Bitcoin developers who are listed at bottom of https://bitcoin.org/en/development anyone?
1475 2014-08-06 23:10:44 <Dizzle> They're often here. Best to just ask your question unless you're looking for an interview.
1476 2014-08-06 23:11:10 gjj_ has joined
1477 2014-08-06 23:11:29 <jintelletec> i can help you find devs
1478 2014-08-06 23:11:39 <iii> no interview, need someone skilled enougg to modify Bitcoin GUI client and the way it interprets transactions
1479 2014-08-06 23:11:58 <jintelletec> how long for, project/perm based?
1480 2014-08-06 23:12:19 <iii> i don't understand what you are asking
1481 2014-08-06 23:13:10 <iii> it is a project, not neccessarily permanent job
1482 2014-08-06 23:13:36 <iii> how long? not sure, too me it looks like minor modification really
1483 2014-08-06 23:13:55 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1484 2014-08-06 23:15:36 <michagogo> iii: uh, I'm listed there
1485 2014-08-06 23:15:41 <michagogo> But that means exactly nothing
1486 2014-08-06 23:15:54 <iii> how come?
1487 2014-08-06 23:15:58 paul0 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1488 2014-08-06 23:16:47 <michagogo> Because that's just commits to github/bitcoin/bitcoin
1489 2014-08-06 23:17:09 paxtoncamaro91 has joined
1490 2014-08-06 23:17:14 <iii> OK but it proves you have a clue, no?
1491 2014-08-06 23:17:34 MiamiDDS has joined
1492 2014-08-06 23:17:36 <michagogo> ...well, depends on what you're looking for
1493 2014-08-06 23:17:54 <michagogo> I've never touched the code, afaik
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1498 2014-08-06 23:19:52 <Thomas83> Hi guys!
1499 2014-08-06 23:20:02 <iii> need someone who can change anything and everything if needed
1500 2014-08-06 23:20:21 <Thomas83> Please can someone tell me if it is possible to accept a 0 Confirmation transaction without facing double spend please?
1501 2014-08-06 23:20:41 <michagogo> iii: yeah, I can tell you that many (if not most) people listed there aren't that.
1502 2014-08-06 23:20:45 <michagogo> Thomas83: in a word: No.
1503 2014-08-06 23:20:50 <michagogo> In two words: It depends.
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1507 2014-08-06 23:21:05 <michagogo> Thomas83: but this is a question for #bitcoin
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1509 2014-08-06 23:21:13 <Thomas83> michagogo :) please could you explain if you have time? :)
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1511 2014-08-06 23:21:19 <Thomas83> Not Bitcoin-Dev?
1512 2014-08-06 23:21:27 <michagogo> sorry, it's 2:15 am and I was about to go to bed
1513 2014-08-06 23:21:34 <michagogo> Thomas83: no, read the channel topic
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1515 2014-08-06 23:21:45 <gmaxwell> iii: there is no such person
1516 2014-08-06 23:22:16 <michagogo> Thomas83: ask someone else, in #bitcoin
1517 2014-08-06 23:22:23 <iii> there definitely is such person or you suggests Bitcoin works as a miracle?
1518 2014-08-06 23:22:42 davec has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1519 2014-08-06 23:22:58 <michagogo> iii: this project isn't a 1-man effort
1520 2014-08-06 23:23:00 <gmaxwell> iii: no person can just change much of bitcoin today, bitcoin is run by tens of thousands of people and isn't simply subject to being changed at a whim.
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1524 2014-08-06 23:23:42 <michagogo> anyway
1525 2014-08-06 23:23:43 <iii> this is not a project about changing Bitcoin but project about modified client
1526 2014-08-06 23:23:44 <michagogo> goodnight.
1527 2014-08-06 23:24:21 <iii> and project is not aiming at changing how Bitcoin works, at all
1528 2014-08-06 23:24:24 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1530 2014-08-06 23:25:43 <iii> project is about modified Bitcoin GUI client in a way it interprets transactions differently to achieve a goal outside of normal Bitcoin GUI use
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1532 2014-08-06 23:26:10 <gmaxwell> Sounds likely inadvisable.
1533 2014-08-06 23:26:18 <iii> think of it as colored coins without changing Bitcoin at all
1534 2014-08-06 23:27:06 <iii> i need to be careful to not reveal too much so i'm sorry if it is not clear
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1536 2014-08-06 23:27:29 <iii> but let me asure you i know what i'm talking about after 2 years in cryptos :o)
1537 2014-08-06 23:27:50 <iii> no damage will be done to Bitcoin, it is exactly the oppossite
1538 2014-08-06 23:28:02 maraoz has joined
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1540 2014-08-06 23:29:21 <iii> well, i thnik i'll have to go straight to head and contact Gavin, cya
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1543 2014-08-06 23:30:00 <michagogo> iii: please don't.
1544 2014-08-06 23:30:11 <michagogo> (unless your project has to do with the number 11)
1545 2014-08-06 23:30:25 <iii> don't what? go away? :o))
1546 2014-08-06 23:30:52 <michagogo> iii: bother Gavin
1547 2014-08-06 23:31:00 elgrecoFL is now known as GenWeAreGoingToZ
1548 2014-08-06 23:31:07 <iii> you wanna tell me to give up on project that will massively increase:
1549 2014-08-06 23:31:12 GenWeAreGoingToZ is now known as elgrecoFL
1550 2014-08-06 23:31:17 <iii> 1. number of full nodes
1551 2014-08-06 23:31:26 <iii> 2. transaction fees
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1553 2014-08-06 23:31:45 <michagogo> iii: maybe if you actually explained what you were talking about...
1554 2014-08-06 23:31:46 <iii> 3. bring potentially millions to Bitcoin space?
1555 2014-08-06 23:31:49 <iwilcox> iii: False dichotomy.  Not bothering Gavin is not the same thing as "giving up"
1556 2014-08-06 23:31:54 mapppum has joined
1557 2014-08-06 23:32:29 <michagogo> Anyway, seriously now, goodnight
1558 2014-08-06 23:33:14 <iii> i have explained but OK one more time - Bitcoi GUI client modified in such a way that it interprets normal BTC transactions differently to achieve a goal outside of normal GUI use
1559 2014-08-06 23:34:18 <iii> it is still Bitcoin GUI client and it still deals just with normal BTC transactions, i'm not making the next MSC or XCP
1560 2014-08-06 23:34:48 <michagogo> iii: how will that "massively increase number of full nodes and transaction fees"?
1561 2014-08-06 23:34:55 <michagogo> gah, I really need to sleep...
1562 2014-08-06 23:35:20 <iii> get million of non-crypto users to use modified client
1563 2014-08-06 23:35:28 <michagogo> HOW?
1564 2014-08-06 23:35:40 <iii> quite easy with that what modified client will be all about
1565 2014-08-06 23:36:04 <iii> imagine if your Bitcoin GUI wallet is not just a wallet
1566 2014-08-06 23:37:07 <iii> have you ever saw Huntercoin? it is a twist which does not change Bitcoin in any way
1567 2014-08-06 23:37:15 <iii> enough said?
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1569 2014-08-06 23:38:42 <iii> as said earlier, modified GUI client would just interpret normal Bitcoin transactions differently than classic wallets
1570 2014-08-06 23:39:09 <iii> but any transaction done with such wallet are still legit Bitcoin transactions
1571 2014-08-06 23:40:14 <iii> they are not spam, dust or require full tx index to be maintaned (like Mastercoin)
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1573 2014-08-06 23:41:12 <iii> when i receive BTC from someone my Bitcoin GUI wallets says "BTC received from (some address or label)"
1574 2014-08-06 23:41:36 <Apocalyptic> there is no from address, so doubtful
1575 2014-08-06 23:41:42 <iii> what modified client will do is interpret such transaction as "(can't tell what)"
1576 2014-08-06 23:41:51 <iii> there is from address, sorry
1577 2014-08-06 23:43:10 <Luke-Jr> iii: integrating Huntercoin into Bitcoin would be an abuse of the Bitcoin network and harmful to Bitcoin
1578 2014-08-06 23:43:17 <iii> if you give me your BTC address i can send you some coins from one of my addresses = there is "from" address
1579 2014-08-06 23:43:29 <iii> hello Luke
1580 2014-08-06 23:43:32 <Apocalyptic> no there is not...
1581 2014-08-06 23:43:35 <Luke-Jr> iii: no, there is no from address
1582 2014-08-06 23:43:48 <Luke-Jr> iii: Bitcoin wallets already say "(can't tell from what)"
1583 2014-08-06 23:43:56 ak__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1585 2014-08-06 23:44:09 * Luke-Jr quotes: "From: unknown"
1586 2014-08-06 23:44:20 <iii> "(can't tell what)" =/= "(can't tell from what)"
1587 2014-08-06 23:44:28 <iwilcox> I think he meant "I'd put something here but my projekt is Top Sekrit"
1588 2014-08-06 23:44:43 <iii> (can't tell what) means i can not tell what is project about, sorry
1589 2014-08-06 23:44:51 ak__ has joined
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1591 2014-08-06 23:45:09 <Luke-Jr> iii: well, I can't implement some change without knowing what it is..
1592 2014-08-06 23:45:13 <iii> but it is not Huntercoin means Bitcoin
1593 2014-08-06 23:45:26 <Luke-Jr> and I doubt anyone here has that kind of magic
1594 2014-08-06 23:45:34 <Apocalyptic> Luke-Jr, probably not worth your time anyway
1595 2014-08-06 23:45:39 <iii> Huntercoin was used so I explain a different interpretation of transactions
1596 2014-08-06 23:46:15 <iii> but Huntercoin actualy use different protocol and transactions than NMC which it is cloned from, as far as i know
1597 2014-08-06 23:46:30 Cory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1598 2014-08-06 23:46:48 <iii> let me explain the easiest as i can, ok?
1599 2014-08-06 23:47:38 <iii> for example, someone sends you 1 BTC and your Bitcoin GUI wallet interprets that as "you received 1 BTC"
1600 2014-08-06 23:47:45 <iii> right?
1601 2014-08-06 23:48:53 <iii> so what if it interprets that transaction as "you received a 1 month free cruise around Bahamas"?
1602 2014-08-06 23:49:03 <iii> damage to Bitcon? none
1603 2014-08-06 23:49:15 <pigeons> i get those messages on my fax machine, no need for bitcoin
1604 2014-08-06 23:49:22 <Apocalyptic> heh
1605 2014-08-06 23:49:24 <iii> LULZ
1606 2014-08-06 23:50:13 <iii> Luke can i contact you on bitcointalk on the matter? i know you are skilled developer
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1611 2014-08-06 23:58:05 <Luke-Jr> iii: IRC is better than BitcoinTalk
1612 2014-08-06 23:58:25 <Luke-Jr> iii: you may PM me about it
1613 2014-08-06 23:58:48 <iii> hahaha LOL i totally forgot i can do that here
1614 2014-08-06 23:59:00 <iii> (not your average IRC user obviously)