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 153 2014-08-13 03:24:10 <earlz> So, are floating points at all safe to use in protocol level code for the reference wallet?
 154 2014-08-13 03:24:50 <earlz> My impression is that floating points can vary depending on compiler, platform, OS, etc
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 161 2014-08-13 03:37:32 <Luke-Jr> earlz: it's never appropriate to memcpy complex memory over the network, even if it's simple >8-bit integers.
 162 2014-08-13 03:37:52 <Luke-Jr> earlz: that's why Bitcoin Core doesn't work on anything but x86 really (and to a limited extent, ARM)
 163 2014-08-13 03:39:02 jcrubino has joined
 164 2014-08-13 03:39:32 <jcrubino> can bitcoind be set to just "sit" on the network in spv mode?
 165 2014-08-13 03:41:18 aceat64 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 166 2014-08-13 03:44:31 <poutine> What is the reasoning behind restricting the redeemscript to pushdata operations?
 167 2014-08-13 03:45:05 <poutine> or am I reading "Validation fails if there are any operations other than "push data" operations in the scriptSig." from bip-0016 wrong?
 168 2014-08-13 03:47:10 benrcole has joined
 169 2014-08-13 03:48:19 <poutine> nevermind
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 171 2014-08-13 03:49:08 <Luke-Jr> jcrubino: bitcoind does not support SPV mode today.
 172 2014-08-13 03:49:52 <jcrubino> Luke-Jr; the wiki indicates it is capable of a "hybrid"
 173 2014-08-13 03:50:02 <Luke-Jr> jcrubino: where?
 174 2014-08-13 03:50:58 <jcrubino> mybad:  "integrated"
 175 2014-08-13 03:51:05 <jcrubino> still nebulous
 176 2014-08-13 03:51:21 <jcrubino> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Clients#For_developers
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 179 2014-08-13 03:52:41 <jcrubino> Luke-Jr: integarted as in monolithic implementation is my new interpretation
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 200 2014-08-13 04:28:14 <poutine> if a txout was: OP_HASH160 [20-byte-hash of {OP_1} ] OP_EQUAL (P2SH), and a txin scriptSig is OP_1 [serialized {OP_1}], would that work?
 201 2014-08-13 04:28:26 sabfer has joined
 202 2014-08-13 04:28:36 <poutine> I meant if a txout scriptPubKey was
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 206 2014-08-13 04:34:05 <andytoshi> hey, wizards-wallet just validated the whole testnet chain :)
 207 2014-08-13 04:34:14 <andytoshi> (it doesn't do P2SH yet so that's not a real accomplishment..)
 208 2014-08-13 04:34:41 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: is it a wallet or a node? O.o
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 210 2014-08-13 04:35:17 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 211 2014-08-13 04:35:19 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: a wallet. but i need a working script implementation because i'm bolting a coinjoin client/server onto it and it needs to validate txes
 212 2014-08-13 04:35:25 Starduster has joined
 213 2014-08-13 04:35:36 <andytoshi> and i also wanna do coinswaps, and atomic cross-chain swaps, and whatever else takes my fancy..
 214 2014-08-13 04:35:39 Dr-G2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 215 2014-08-13 04:35:41 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: why not a library for that?
 216 2014-08-13 04:35:49 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: i'm writing the library :)
 217 2014-08-13 04:35:53 <Luke-Jr> ah
 218 2014-08-13 04:35:54 <andytoshi> i'm in rust
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 222 2014-08-13 04:40:40 <Luke-Jr> andytoshi: btw, rust can use C libs and vice-versa, right?
 223 2014-08-13 04:41:34 viic has joined
 224 2014-08-13 04:41:49 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: yeah, though it's a bit nasty to use rust libs from C
 225 2014-08-13 04:41:56 <andytoshi> because you need to start the rust runtime from C
 226 2014-08-13 04:42:34 <andytoshi> and it's also nasty to use C libs from rust because you have to read the API docs very carefully (or more likely, study the code <.<) to construct a safe API which follows rust's aliasing and mutability rules
 227 2014-08-13 04:42:36 moarrr has joined
 228 2014-08-13 04:43:00 <Luke-Jr> rust needs a runtime? :<
 229 2014-08-13 04:43:15 <jrick> depends
 230 2014-08-13 04:43:24 <jrick> libgreen needs one
 231 2014-08-13 04:43:29 <andytoshi> otherwise you wind up with unsafe{} blocks everywhere
 232 2014-08-13 04:43:33 <jrick> (which has the M:N threading model)
 233 2014-08-13 04:43:39 <andytoshi> Luke-Jr: a very minimal one
 234 2014-08-13 04:43:45 <andytoshi> for task spawning, as jrick says
 235 2014-08-13 04:43:51 <andytoshi> if you are using libnative (the default
 236 2014-08-13 04:43:55 <andytoshi> ) it's basically just a shim
 237 2014-08-13 04:44:25 <andytoshi> oh, and it supports unwinding in case of task failure
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 241 2014-08-13 04:54:19 <davec> poutine: that looks accurate, just be aware that serialied OP_1 -> OP_81
 242 2014-08-13 04:54:42 <poutine> Thanks davec
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 244 2014-08-13 04:55:14 <gmaxwell> davec: huh? you mean seralized OP_1 = 0x81
 245 2014-08-13 04:55:16 <davec> err sorry I meant it's just OP_1
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 247 2014-08-13 04:55:37 <davec> i.e so it's canonical don't add an OP_DATA_1 in front of it
 248 2014-08-13 04:56:53 <davec> gmaxwell, right I mean 0x81, not OP_81.
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 254 2014-08-13 05:02:24 <poutine> It wouldn't be 51?
 255 2014-08-13 05:02:26 <poutine> 0x51
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 258 2014-08-13 05:03:22 <gmaxwell> hah indeed. my memory is off-base.
 259 2014-08-13 05:03:41 <davec> here, with scriptbuilder -> scriptPubkey: a914568750a966ff3c89a80cdf13fdb27955bc0a053887, scriptSig: 510151
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 265 2014-08-13 05:05:37 <davec> wow, yeah we're both remining 0x81 instead of 81 (0x51). sigh
 266 2014-08-13 05:07:34 Aido has joined
 267 2014-08-13 05:08:40 <davec> poutine: oh I hashed the whole thing instead of just the OP_1.  This looks right: scriptPubkey: a914da1745e9b549bd0bfa1a569971c77eba30cd5a4b87, scriptSig: 510151
 268 2014-08-13 05:08:48 Aido_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 269 2014-08-13 05:09:05 <davec> been too long since I manually created one
 270 2014-08-13 05:10:15 <poutine> I keep getting a91445296d4fe0a8645c200ce8a846e1d5547f7528fd87
 271 2014-08-13 05:10:18 <poutine> when I do it
 272 2014-08-13 05:10:29 <poutine> I wonder what I'm messing up
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 274 2014-08-13 05:11:12 <poutine> Let me try with yours
 275 2014-08-13 05:14:01 <poutine> 5114568750a966ff3c89a80cdf13fdb27955bc0a0538 is the scriptSig I'm generating to redeem that
 276 2014-08-13 05:14:08 <poutine> but it is not working
 277 2014-08-13 05:14:34 <poutine> hmm I think I know what I did wrong, sorry for cluttering the channel
 278 2014-08-13 05:15:42 <davec> poutine: You're probably not using Go, but here is what I used to generate that: http://zer0byte.com/zeropastebin/?c78d293a25ca5fe7#nDEWIsnEmvvM7qMK7NjqPHazgxwcRnxQ9yZuow3yZ0g=
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 280 2014-08-13 05:20:22 <jrick> davec: could probably clean that api up by making the constructor a variadic function
 281 2014-08-13 05:20:41 <jrick> ...interface{}, bytes are opcodes, []byte is data
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 284 2014-08-13 05:22:22 <davec> yeah, but then you have to return errors
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 286 2014-08-13 05:22:38 <davec> when somebody passes something that isn't one of them, runtime versus compile
 287 2014-08-13 05:22:47 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: any magic for 'make src/bitcoind+install'? :P
 288 2014-08-13 05:23:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no :( that's a problem in general with the make-based selective approach
 289 2014-08-13 05:23:29 <wumpus> install is always 'build everything that was selected, install everything that was selected'
 290 2014-08-13 05:23:32 <Luke-Jr> oh well :x
 291 2014-08-13 05:23:50 <jrick> davec: type Opcode interface ? :)
 292 2014-08-13 05:23:59 <jrick> er
 293 2014-08-13 05:24:01 <jrick> Op
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 295 2014-08-13 05:24:25 <jrick> I guess it still ugly
 296 2014-08-13 05:25:34 <jrick> btw our const () block is wrong, it needs the 'byte' type for each
 297 2014-08-13 05:25:46 <jrick> everything but OP_FALSE is untyped
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 301 2014-08-13 05:28:18 <davec> not wrong, just not explicit and yeah I agree it should be
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 310 2014-08-13 05:45:45 <poutine> davec, I hate to ask this, but could you dump the hex string value of hash?
 311 2014-08-13 05:45:57 <poutine> I've struggled getting this go environment up, but will continue trying
 312 2014-08-13 05:46:52 <davec> hash: da1745e9b549bd0bfa1a569971c77eba30cd5a4b
 313 2014-08-13 05:47:29 <poutine> Thanks
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 317 2014-08-13 05:53:05 <poutine> Ok got it crafted and spent, thanks a bunch davec
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 329 2014-08-13 06:07:23 <jcrubino> andytoshi: how are you handling the rust api changes
 330 2014-08-13 06:07:32 <jcrubino> I cant get examples from two months ago to run
 331 2014-08-13 06:08:36 <andytoshi> jcrubino: i'm always on #rust and #rust-internals on irc.mozilla.org, i generally react to any breaking changes within a day
 332 2014-08-13 06:08:53 <andytoshi> iirc there haven't been any that affected me in the last month or so
 333 2014-08-13 06:09:18 <jcrubino> is there any api subset freezes planned?
 334 2014-08-13 06:09:26 <andytoshi> oh, no, there was one 13 days ago that broke a ton of stuff, but i was responsible for that one
 335 2014-08-13 06:09:48 <andytoshi> jcrubino: yeah, all the docs have a stable/experimental/deprecated tag on every method
 336 2014-08-13 06:09:55 <andytoshi> and there is work toward stabilizing everything in the stdlib
 337 2014-08-13 06:10:48 <jcrubino> ah, i noticed the experimental but overlooked the stable tags
 338 2014-08-13 06:11:22 <andytoshi> as cargo matures the hope is that everything non-crucial to the compiler can be moved into separate libs
 339 2014-08-13 06:11:52 <andytoshi> then with cargo you can set dependencies to specific versions (or even git commits), and the rust community takes semantic versioning MAJOR.minor.bugfix seriously
 340 2014-08-13 06:12:04 paveljanik has joined
 341 2014-08-13 06:13:24 <jcrubino> good to know, I am going to have stop into #rust on mozilla to learn more
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 343 2014-08-13 06:25:11 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
 344 2014-08-13 06:25:12 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 0 days, 15 hours, 2 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> Anyway, if you're really and truly paranoid you should be using a multisig wallet so even if you're copy of bitcoin core is unsafe your coins are still safe.
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 419 2014-08-13 08:36:18 <wumpus> so now that showmyip.com no longer exists, everyone is trying to replace it with their own whatismyip service
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 422 2014-08-13 08:37:16 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4686 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4691
 423 2014-08-13 08:37:19 akstunt600 has joined
 424 2014-08-13 08:37:33 <wumpus> .. or just removing it like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4682
 425 2014-08-13 08:37:37 <Luke-Jr> lol
 426 2014-08-13 08:38:18 <wumpus> it's clear that some decision needs to be made here
 427 2014-08-13 08:38:41 <Luke-Jr> it's obvious polling an external site is dumb and useless
 428 2014-08-13 08:38:50 <Luke-Jr> just see what some random peer sees you as
 429 2014-08-13 08:39:20 <wumpus> agreed; random peers can lie to you, but so can a random external site (especially without authentication)
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 432 2014-08-13 08:40:12 <Luke-Jr> even if they lie to you, we don't use it for anything important afaik
 433 2014-08-13 08:40:27 <wumpus> we use it to determine what address we advertise 
 434 2014-08-13 08:40:29 <wumpus> so kinda important
 435 2014-08-13 08:40:29 <Luke-Jr> worst case you might be stuck with your initial 8 peers
 436 2014-08-13 08:40:43 <Luke-Jr> basically has the same effect as not forwarding the port
 437 2014-08-13 08:40:54 <wumpus> (well, important if it could be disrupted on a massive scale)
 438 2014-08-13 08:41:20 <wumpus> I agree it's pointless to lie to just one peer
 439 2014-08-13 08:42:11 <Luke-Jr> if all 8 of your nodes are conspiring to hide your IP, you're probably already screwed ;x
 440 2014-08-13 08:43:01 <gmaxwell> it sounds like you guys don't actually understand my solution.
 441 2014-08-13 08:43:05 <gmaxwell> thats unfortunate.
 442 2014-08-13 08:43:14 <wumpus> we're not talking about your solution ,just the problem
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 444 2014-08-13 08:43:47 <gmaxwell> wumpus: My solution has no problem with peers lying to you.
 445 2014-08-13 08:45:23 <gmaxwell> It gives the peer the address it gave you back to it. If it lies to you it doesn't change your behavior in any respect except what you send to the self-same peer.
 446 2014-08-13 08:46:02 <wumpus> gmaxwell: nice!
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 448 2014-08-13 08:46:37 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sounds like a very sensible solution
 449 2014-08-13 08:46:54 <gmaxwell> if anyone has cycles to test, https://github.com/gmaxwell/bitcoin/commits/extip3
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 455 2014-08-13 08:49:31 <gmaxwell> in case the peer is merely braindamaged and not malicious, it only uses the peer provided one sometimes. Definition of 'sometimes' is about the only thing that prevents this from being completely trivial.
 456 2014-08-13 08:51:30 <wumpus> good for privacy too, to only give out information to peers that we received from them
 457 2014-08-13 08:52:06 <wumpus> would even work for tor hidden services
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 459 2014-08-13 08:53:44 <gmaxwell> wumpus: my patch also soft-disables address discovery if using -proxy (I'm not sure why we didn't do that before)
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 463 2014-08-13 08:55:25 <wumpus> gmaxwell: the reasoning, afaik, is that -proxy disables -listen, no listen disables -discover
 464 2014-08-13 08:55:46 <wumpus> (and -upnp)
 465 2014-08-13 08:57:24 <gmaxwell> wumpus: right but -proxy -listen is the hidden service configuration.
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 467 2014-08-13 08:57:40 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agreed
 468 2014-08-13 08:58:38 <wumpus> gmaxwell: although a hidden service would provide -externalip
 469 2014-08-13 08:58:50 <wumpus> gmaxwell: which also disables -discover
 470 2014-08-13 08:59:05 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but I'm OK with a little belt-and-suspenders here so let's add that
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 499 2014-08-13 09:36:19 <michagogo> 11:51:33 <gmaxwell> wumpus: right but -proxy -listen is the hidden service configuration.
 500 2014-08-13 09:36:19 <michagogo> Eh? Isn't that -onion?
 501 2014-08-13 09:36:43 <gmaxwell> michagogo: only if you also want to use the ipv4 internet.
 502 2014-08-13 09:37:32 <gmaxwell> (without tor)
 503 2014-08-13 09:37:33 <wumpus> -onion is useful if you want to be able to connect to hidden services in your ipv4/ipv6 node
 504 2014-08-13 09:37:37 <michagogo> gmaxwell: you're still using ipv4 internet with -proxy
 505 2014-08-13 09:37:47 <gmaxwell> michagogo: I clarified.
 506 2014-08-13 09:37:55 <michagogo> For that you want -onlynet=tor, iirc?
 507 2014-08-13 09:37:57 <wumpus> michagogo: -onlynet=tor
 508 2014-08-13 09:37:58 <wumpus> yes
 509 2014-08-13 09:38:03 <michagogo> gmaxwell: yeah, I saw
 510 2014-08-13 09:38:23 <michagogo> Onnention lagging a bit, sorry
 511 2014-08-13 09:38:24 <michagogo> Connection*
 512 2014-08-13 09:38:37 <wumpus> the point of -proxy is to send all outgoing requests through a proxy
 513 2014-08-13 09:38:50 <wumpus> it overrides the ipv4, ipv6 and onion proxy
 514 2014-08-13 09:38:57 <michagogo> right
 515 2014-08-13 09:41:39 <wumpus> whoa my MRU CCoinsCache based on boost::bimap is actually working
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 518 2014-08-13 09:43:06 <michagogo> Which is orthogonal to hidden services
 519 2014-08-13 09:43:10 <michagogo> To running one, that is
 520 2014-08-13 09:43:36 <wumpus> michagogo: yes
 521 2014-08-13 09:43:58 <wumpus> a hidden service is just an extra source of incoming connections, it doesn't affect how you handle outgoing ones
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 524 2014-08-13 09:49:05 <cdecker>  îS#îS/mark
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 526 2014-08-13 09:53:42 <wumpus> anyhow - I'm going to merge #4682 now so that we don't poll the real-estate broker anymow, hopefully many people will test gmaxwell's tree so that we can get rid of the external IP poll completely
 527 2014-08-13 09:54:04 rodarmor has quit (Quit: rodarmor)
 528 2014-08-13 09:54:47 <wumpus> s/anymow/anymore
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 530 2014-08-13 09:59:47 <cdecker> Will test as soon as I can :-)
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 618 2014-08-13 12:29:52 <netg_> peter todd left bitcoin dev for viacoin, is that true?
 619 2014-08-13 12:31:11 <btcdrak> We hired him to work on tree-chains, I that doesnt affects his contribution to bitcoin.
 620 2014-08-13 12:31:41 <btcdrak> *it doesnt affect his contribution to bitcoin.
 621 2014-08-13 12:32:32 chax has joined
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 623 2014-08-13 12:32:44 <btcdrak> if you are wondering where he's been for the last week: https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/499417331173707776
 624 2014-08-13 12:33:14 <netg_> ic, thank you
 625 2014-08-13 12:33:37 * Luke-Jr should figure out how petertodd manages his time :p
 626 2014-08-13 12:34:05 <netg_> personl assistant :o
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 634 2014-08-13 12:47:25 <hearn> petertodd: ah you're back? your testnet seed is hosed again, i think
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 744 2014-08-13 14:30:00 <bsm1175321> Regarding HD wallets, I'm pretty disappointed that any compromised private key compromises all others.  Has anyone suggested an alternate HD algorithm in which this is not the case?
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 747 2014-08-13 14:30:42 <sipa> it's theoretically impossible to have that property with ecdsa
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 749 2014-08-13 14:31:18 <jgarzik> bsm1175321, (1) the compromise of a wallet has similar impact, (2) regen the HD seed periodically
 750 2014-08-13 14:31:48 <sipa> hardened derivation limits the impact of that, but also hurts convenience
 751 2014-08-13 14:32:29 <jgarzik> Have to examine key security not just at the granular level, but also look at wallet practices, and how it trickles down to the user.  Today, a "compromised private key" can mean compromised-all-keys-in-wallet.
 752 2014-08-13 14:32:46 <sipa> (you need a child private key + parent extended public key; just a private key isn't enough, but it's sad that this elevates extended public keys to somewhat secret data)
 753 2014-08-13 14:32:47 <bsm1175321> As far as remembering a word phrase and the capacity of human memory, regenning the HD seed is kind of a nightmare.
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 755 2014-08-13 14:33:22 <sipa> on the other hand, the use cases for actually revealing private keys are probably limited
 756 2014-08-13 14:33:49 <bsm1175321> I can memorize a 12-word phrase, but I don't want to have to re-memorize one, ever.
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 758 2014-08-13 14:34:10 <jgarzik> bsm1175321, not refreshing periodically is poor security practice.  (PSA. brain wallets are highly insecure, if you are just thinking up a phrase on your own, rather than generating it programmaticaly)
 759 2014-08-13 14:34:13 <bsm1175321> sipa: One can "import a wallet" in several web and offline wallets, by giving it the private key.
 760 2014-08-13 14:34:23 <sipa> bsm1175321: i think that's crazy :)
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 762 2014-08-13 14:34:34 <bsm1175321> sipa: agreed, but it's a valuable use case.
 763 2014-08-13 14:34:39 <jgarzik> sipa, the use case for revealing HD seeds is even more limited ;p
 764 2014-08-13 14:34:57 <jgarzik> it has similar attack surface as wallet master key
 765 2014-08-13 14:35:10 <sipa> bsm1175321: importing a watch-only wallet, sure
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 767 2014-08-13 14:35:25 <sipa> bsm1175321: if you actually want the webwallet to be able to spend things (and not just watch), i think it should have independent keys
 768 2014-08-13 14:35:36 <sipa> dealing with coins thta can be spent from multiple places is a nightmare
 769 2014-08-13 14:36:18 <bsm1175321> jgarzik: I'm talking about memorizing a programatically-generated phrase.  A little app which makes you type it over and over to aid in memorization would be helpful.  There are UI issues to work on here.
 770 2014-08-13 14:36:30 <sipa> oh, i also think brainwallets are crazy
 771 2014-08-13 14:36:56 <jgarzik> Consider funding levels in the security plan, too.  Day to day spending can occur from a lower security wallet, where the compromise risk is monetarily limited.  Periodically refresh from high security, perhaps offline/paper wallet.
 772 2014-08-13 14:37:00 <bsm1175321> sipa: why?  No matter what you're going to need to memorize the relevant number of bits in a password.
 773 2014-08-13 14:37:16 <sipa> bsm1175321: we have storage devices which much better reliability than human brains
 774 2014-08-13 14:37:34 <sipa> one was invented a few thousand years ago even, called paper
 775 2014-08-13 14:37:39 <bsm1175321> sipa: but you're going to want to unlock it somehow.  The lowest-bit password in the process is the attack vector.
 776 2014-08-13 14:38:01 <sipa> no, there's a huge difference
 777 2014-08-13 14:38:06 <bsm1175321> I know it's the 21st century and everything, but once upon a time, thieves would actually come into your house and take paper.
 778 2014-08-13 14:38:21 <sipa> a brainwallet was unlimited eternal and unconditional attack surface: the whole world can continually try to break it
 779 2014-08-13 14:38:42 <helo> it is certainly impractical for people to remember rotating high-entropy passphrases
 780 2014-08-13 14:38:44 <bsm1175321> Let them.  I can calculate how long that would take...
 781 2014-08-13 14:38:47 <jgarzik> and does.  brainwallet stealing robots exist.  a reddit post demonstrated common passwords are stolen in < 30 seconds.
 782 2014-08-13 14:38:49 <sipa> they don't even need to know about you or you having a wallet
 783 2014-08-13 14:38:51 <helo> and unnecessary, luckily
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 785 2014-08-13 14:39:15 <sipa> bsm1175321: compare that with a password, which can only be attacked by anyone who has access to the encrypted secret
 786 2014-08-13 14:39:34 <jgarzik> in fairness, bsm1175321 did say " I'm talking about memorizing a programatically-generated phrase"
 787 2014-08-13 14:39:37 <jgarzik> which is a BIP
 788 2014-08-13 14:39:46 <jgarzik> human-generated phrase is not
 789 2014-08-13 14:40:00 <sipa> oh, i'm not even talking about human generated phrases
 790 2014-08-13 14:40:07 <bsm1175321> I'm talking about memorizing a 12-word phrase or so for which I can calculate the entropy.  Then training users to do that...
 791 2014-08-13 14:41:19 <sipa> but fair enough, if you set the entropy high enough, you can calculate the duifficulty of even such an unlimited attack succeeding
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 793 2014-08-13 14:41:34 <sipa> but it does make the amount of entropy to remember higher
 794 2014-08-13 14:41:51 <jgarzik> is it... BIP 38 with the canonical word list?
 795 2014-08-13 14:41:53 <bsm1175321> sipa: I don't see any other reasonable way to secure a wallet, of any description, than forcing users to memorize the relevant number of bits.
 796 2014-08-13 14:41:54 * jgarzik tries to remember
 797 2014-08-13 14:42:07 <jgarzik> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0038.mediawiki
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 799 2014-08-13 14:42:10 <bsm1175321> But I'd be interested in other proposals...
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 801 2014-08-13 14:43:19 <helo> you can't force remember... and if something bad happens to you, then it's gone forever
 802 2014-08-13 14:43:19 <jgarzik> bsm1175321, there is an existing proposal that presumes a canonical English word list.  You request a random 256 bits, and the algorithm returns a sequence of words from that Well Known List.
 803 2014-08-13 14:43:25 <sipa> jgarzik: bip 39
 804 2014-08-13 14:44:00 <jgarzik> Ah yes.  Thanks sipa.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki  "Mnemonic code for generating deterministic keys"
 805 2014-08-13 14:44:00 <sipa> bsm1175321: "the relevant number of bits" depends on whether you still have an external secret that not everyone has access to
 806 2014-08-13 14:44:06 <jgarzik> bsm1175321, ^
 807 2014-08-13 14:45:05 <bsm1175321> So you keep a long password on your phone/usb key, encrypted with a poor one.  I know how to attack that...
 808 2014-08-13 14:45:14 <sipa> not a "poor one"
 809 2014-08-13 14:45:16 <helo> and you hide the usb key
 810 2014-08-13 14:45:23 <sipa> just a less strong one
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 812 2014-08-13 14:45:48 <helo> someone has to find it, brute force it likely forever, not even knowing what the payoff is
 813 2014-08-13 14:45:48 <sipa> like if the device only allows 3 attempts per second, you've rate limited any attacker
 814 2014-08-13 14:47:08 <helo> what kind of device can deny an attacker access to the actual encrypted data for an "offline" attack?
 815 2014-08-13 14:47:51 <sipa> something that auto destructs when you try to tamper with it?
 816 2014-08-13 14:48:11 <sipa> but yes, sure, there are always scenarios in which particular attackers can do more
 817 2014-08-13 14:48:18 <helo> i think i'm all out of those :/
 818 2014-08-13 14:48:47 <helo> anyways, it's reasonable to just remember one 12-word passphrase for your local encrypted backups
 819 2014-08-13 14:49:03 <jgarzik> It's the normal security scenario.  You can never prevent an attack.  You just use various methods to increase cost ($$, time, ...), decrease chance of success.
 820 2014-08-13 14:49:29 <sipa> even remembering a 256-bit entropy key by heart is vulnerable to a $4 wrench attack
 821 2014-08-13 14:49:35 <jgarzik> A ridiculously well funded attack can probably find a way.
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 824 2014-08-13 14:49:53 <jgarzik> sipa, perhaps even encourages it
 825 2014-08-13 14:50:00 <sipa> spreading out the requirements an attacker needs helps
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 827 2014-08-13 14:50:13 <sipa> (access to the secret in some storage form + your passphrase)
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 833 2014-08-13 14:54:02 <cfields> BlueMatt: great work!
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 836 2014-08-13 14:54:54 <cfields> i saw that PR and was ready to start feuding. Looks like I'll have to put my pitchforks away
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1093 2014-08-13 19:00:25 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: today if a wallet had an "add to fees" function, that generates a child tx, how well would it work?  IOW how much effect will #1647 actually have?
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1096 2014-08-13 19:06:14 <dgenr8> actually i'm asking anyone who knows
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