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18 2014-08-14 00:24:40 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: the problem would be getting the first transaction relayed and in memory pools
19 2014-08-14 00:24:52 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: once that's done, #1647 works
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71 2014-08-14 01:09:31 <njaard> greetings. does anyone have a list of active/interesting wallet addresses?
72 2014-08-14 01:09:37 <njaard> like 1k or 10k
73 2014-08-14 01:09:54 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
74 2014-08-14 01:10:00 <njaard> um
75 2014-08-14 01:10:02 <njaard> on testnet
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77 2014-08-14 01:11:57 <Lloydy> what do you mean by active/interesting?
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79 2014-08-14 01:13:08 <njaard> ones that appear in the blockchain would be a good start
80 2014-08-14 01:13:36 <njaard> I mean, I could write a program to do so
81 2014-08-14 01:13:43 <njaard> but I'm lazy!
82 2014-08-14 01:14:37 <Lloydy> why not check out the blockchain website?
83 2014-08-14 01:14:54 <Lloydy> https://blockchain.info/largest-recent-transactions
84 2014-08-14 01:15:02 <njaard> I need testnet
85 2014-08-14 01:15:11 <Lloydy> oh! sorry
86 2014-08-14 01:17:45 <mr_burdell> njaard: http://tbtc.blockr.io/trivia/address
87 2014-08-14 01:18:08 Guest6546 is now known as pigeons
88 2014-08-14 01:18:09 <njaard> that's perfect, other than that it's mainnet
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90 2014-08-14 01:18:17 <njaard> oh it's not
91 2014-08-14 01:18:19 <njaard> derp
92 2014-08-14 01:18:46 <njaard> shame it's not machine readable :(
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119 2014-08-14 01:53:49 <wumpus> cfields: how's the travis 'pull tester' coming along?
120 2014-08-14 01:55:32 <jrick> njaard: if by active you mean recently paid to, you can just iterate the last however many blocks, iterate through each tx, and extract the payment addresses (if any)
121 2014-08-14 01:58:36 <jrick> I have a program that can do that if you want addresses recently found in the testnet chain
122 2014-08-14 01:59:10 <jrick> (written in go, if you don't have go then I could just give you the output from the last 100 blocks)
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126 2014-08-14 02:05:28 <njaard> hey jrick, sorry for the long delay
127 2014-08-14 02:05:34 <njaard> I got a solution similar to that
128 2014-08-14 02:05:39 <jrick> cool
129 2014-08-14 02:05:43 <njaard> thanks for the offer though
130 2014-08-14 02:06:02 <njaard> I gotta disconnect due to computer being haunted
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163 2014-08-14 02:59:22 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: reckon I should split base58 out of libblkmaker?
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165 2014-08-14 02:59:54 <BlueMatt> huh?
166 2014-08-14 03:00:02 <BlueMatt> why?
167 2014-08-14 03:00:19 <BlueMatt> I must admit I'm rather unfarmiliar with the capabilities of libblkmaker
168 2014-08-14 03:00:35 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: so it can be used by things without having to pull in all of libblkmaker
169 2014-08-14 03:00:44 <Luke-Jr> libblkmaker mainly just interprets GBT and makes block headers
170 2014-08-14 03:00:47 <BlueMatt> more libraries is always good, I guess?
171 2014-08-14 03:00:53 <BlueMatt> though I'm wondering why you're asking me?
172 2014-08-14 03:01:04 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: related to library-ification of things :p
173 2014-08-14 03:01:15 <BlueMatt> heh, well, yea, I'm always in favor of more libraries
174 2014-08-14 03:01:31 <Luke-Jr> otoh, libblkmaker only can decode base58, not encode
175 2014-08-14 03:01:38 <BlueMatt> but, specifically, I'm doing the libbitcoinscript stuff so that we dont end up with people mining on btcd with its own script engine...
176 2014-08-14 03:01:40 * Luke-Jr ponders the complexity of encoding
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178 2014-08-14 03:01:56 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: well, Eligius plans to do just that ;)
179 2014-08-14 03:02:07 <BlueMatt> waattttt?
180 2014-08-14 03:02:23 <BlueMatt> you're gonna mine on a reimplementation with its own script+block processing code???
181 2014-08-14 03:02:31 <Luke-Jr> that's the plan
182 2014-08-14 03:02:36 <BlueMatt> why???
183 2014-08-14 03:02:42 <Luke-Jr> verifying bitcoind accepts the block proposal of course
184 2014-08-14 03:02:45 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: to test
185 2014-08-14 03:02:52 <BlueMatt> ok, yea,
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187 2014-08-14 03:03:01 <BlueMatt> I suppose this makes sense, as long as you're piping the verification through bitcoind
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189 2014-08-14 03:03:25 <Luke-Jr> same as we did for the 0.8 update basically
190 2014-08-14 03:03:44 <Luke-Jr> (which caught the bdb issue)
191 2014-08-14 03:03:51 <BlueMatt> yea
192 2014-08-14 03:04:24 <jrick> Luke-Jr: thanks :)
193 2014-08-14 03:04:36 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: whats the motivation for btcd, here?
194 2014-08-14 03:04:43 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ?
195 2014-08-14 03:04:43 <BlueMatt> is it somehow better/different than core?
196 2014-08-14 03:04:47 <BlueMatt> or other options
197 2014-08-14 03:05:05 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: to encourage more full node implementations, properly tested etc
198 2014-08-14 03:05:37 <BlueMatt> that is not properly tested
199 2014-08-14 03:05:44 <Luke-Jr> it's part of it
200 2014-08-14 03:05:46 <BlueMatt> properly tested is spending a few man-months writing test cases
201 2014-08-14 03:05:50 <BlueMatt> its a very, very time part of it
202 2014-08-14 03:05:55 <Luke-Jr> yes
203 2014-08-14 03:06:04 <Luke-Jr> but real world testing is important too
204 2014-08-14 03:06:14 <BlueMatt> and, afaik, no one, not a single implementation is even trying to do that
205 2014-08-14 03:06:49 <davec> I guess 100% test coverage between internal unit tests and the block tester tool isn't doing that?
206 2014-08-14 03:07:17 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: btw, does libbitcoinscript.so get *used* by the resulting bitcoind/-qt?
207 2014-08-14 03:07:29 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no
208 2014-08-14 03:07:37 <BlueMatt> but its the same code
209 2014-08-14 03:07:38 <Luke-Jr> davec: I think the keyword there is "afaik"
210 2014-08-14 03:07:50 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I guess that can be a later PR
211 2014-08-14 03:08:39 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: sure, if even needed
212 2014-08-14 03:08:54 <dhill> BlueMatt: you should try out btcd :)
213 2014-08-14 03:09:19 <davec> fair point. Just a sore spot at this point. At the risk of sounding abrasive, and that's not my goal here, multiple full nodes are going to happen. It's better for the bitcoin ecosystem as a whole that the network has facilities in place to deal with it.
214 2014-08-14 03:10:09 <BlueMatt> I have no problem with more full nodes, but if people want to use them for consensus-critical applications they need to be putting in the proper time to test them
215 2014-08-14 03:10:27 <BlueMatt> and no one is yet, so I'm going to be very vocal and explain to people that using them for consensus-critical applications is a very, very bad idea
216 2014-08-14 03:10:33 <davec> for sure - totally agree with you about testing
217 2014-08-14 03:10:33 <BlueMatt> (ie no taking large sums of money, no mining, etc)
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220 2014-08-14 03:10:58 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: davec's point is that btcd has lots of unit tests providing 100% coverage
221 2014-08-14 03:11:02 <BlueMatt> but testing, here, essentially means like using libbitcoinscript and running static analysis tools to prove 100% equivalence, not just tests
222 2014-08-14 03:11:07 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: so?
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225 2014-08-14 03:11:24 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: thats like the first, baby step in testing consensus critical code
226 2014-08-14 03:11:30 <davec> we also have the bitcoind script tests
227 2014-08-14 03:11:40 <BlueMatt> which are also very minimal and not nearly sufficient
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229 2014-08-14 03:12:00 <BlueMatt> davec: btcd should pretty much immediately switch to using libbitcoinscript.so
230 2014-08-14 03:12:04 <dhill> lol
231 2014-08-14 03:12:05 <davec> and the block tester tool you wrote
232 2014-08-14 03:12:13 <jrick> that won't happen
233 2014-08-14 03:12:21 <Luke-Jr> jrick: not even as an option?
234 2014-08-14 03:12:22 <BlueMatt> sure, and all of these things are useful, but not nearly sufficient
235 2014-08-14 03:12:28 <BlueMatt> jrick: dhill ummmmmm...what?
236 2014-08-14 03:12:46 <jrick> there's little value in an alt implemetnation that is no different from the reference
237 2014-08-14 03:13:01 <BlueMatt> in that case I'm gonna be vocal about people not using btcd even if it invests a few man-years in testing, because its clear there is a misunderstanding of the problems at play here, then
238 2014-08-14 03:13:16 <jrick> and it greatly overcomplicates our build process
239 2014-08-14 03:13:31 <BlueMatt> jrick: sure, if you're looking at like reusing the whole thing, but libbitcoinscript will (eventually) be fairly minimal script-only stuff
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241 2014-08-14 03:13:36 <BlueMatt> which very clearly should be standardized
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243 2014-08-14 03:13:46 <BlueMatt> jrick: huh? it would just be another dependency
244 2014-08-14 03:13:52 <BlueMatt> hell, go isnt even easy to install
245 2014-08-14 03:14:10 <jrick> I can install it in 3 commands
246 2014-08-14 03:14:14 <jrick> but anyways..
247 2014-08-14 03:14:22 chax has joined
248 2014-08-14 03:14:25 <BlueMatt> and I can install libbitcoinscript (after it ends up in a release build) in one
249 2014-08-14 03:14:27 <davec> there is no misunderstanding - just a disagreement. I'm fully aware, but you're completely glossing over the point I made above. For the bitcoin ecosystem to truly mature, it needs to deal with multiple consensus critical implementations
250 2014-08-14 03:14:28 <dhill> oh the hate
251 2014-08-14 03:14:41 <BlueMatt> davec: no
252 2014-08-14 03:14:43 <davec> this mean things like using BIP0023 gbt proprosals across multiple impls
253 2014-08-14 03:14:44 <BlueMatt> no it doesnt
254 2014-08-14 03:15:09 <BlueMatt> it needs to have a single consensus, which either means one implementation, or multiple implementations which are proven to be identical
255 2014-08-14 03:15:28 <BlueMatt> and by proven I dont just mean test cases, I mean compiling them and using static analysis to mathematically prove equivalence
256 2014-08-14 03:15:39 <BlueMatt> (which is doable)
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258 2014-08-14 03:15:44 <jrick> BlueMatt: it wouldn't be just another dependancy, it would require cgo (complicates the build procsses and makes cross compiling nearly impossible), stack swapping (BIG performance hit), etc.
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260 2014-08-14 03:16:06 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: how do you prove they are identical across different CPUs?
261 2014-08-14 03:16:07 <BlueMatt> go cant call C libraries without effort? that sounds verrryyyy broken
262 2014-08-14 03:16:20 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: indeed
263 2014-08-14 03:16:24 <dhill> i am glad there is a tcp.so and udp.so that everyone uses.
264 2014-08-14 03:16:31 <Luke-Jr> â¦
265 2014-08-14 03:16:40 <Luke-Jr> dhill: networking is not consensus-critical
266 2014-08-14 03:16:42 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: you're just making my point
267 2014-08-14 03:16:42 <gwillen> dhill: your lack of understanding is disturbing to me
268 2014-08-14 03:16:45 <Luke-Jr> and there kinda are
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271 2014-08-14 03:17:15 <dhill> haha
272 2014-08-14 03:17:17 <jrick> BlueMatt: I would be all for doing static analysis between both
273 2014-08-14 03:17:19 <gwillen> dhill: perhaps what is meant here by "consensus-critical" is not clear
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275 2014-08-14 03:17:23 <jrick> but not switching to the .so
276 2014-08-14 03:17:27 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: my point is that we cannot do such comparisons, even with one implemnetation
277 2014-08-14 03:17:47 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yes, and thus we need to do the best we possibly can
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281 2014-08-14 03:18:05 <gwillen> dhill: it's specifically referring to places where any variation whatsoever, whether more liberal or more conservative, in what is accepted, will result in a permanent fork of the blockchain between implementations
282 2014-08-14 03:18:21 <dhill> yes
283 2014-08-14 03:18:21 <BlueMatt> jrick: please do, I'll be very impressed if someone does that (it means compiling down to llvm and then analysing, not sure if go can compile to llvm yet, but it should)
284 2014-08-14 03:18:24 <gwillen> that's a bit harsher of a result than a disagreement between implementations of TCP, isn't it?
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286 2014-08-14 03:18:45 <jrick> BlueMatt: llgo is in the works, there actually may be enough of it finished to do just that, but it isn't ready to produce binaries yet
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290 2014-08-14 03:19:38 <BlueMatt> jrick: meh, as long as you can compile everything from one entry point that is like HereIsABlockDoSomethingUseful(byte array) and returns a serialized chain/utxo set or something, you should be able to test it
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296 2014-08-14 03:20:35 <jrick> that's a lot more than just comparing the script engines
297 2014-08-14 03:20:45 <jrick> yes I know both are consensus critical
298 2014-08-14 03:21:20 <BlueMatt> yea, and reimplementations have had consensus bugs in both in very subtle, incredibly hard-to-test ways
299 2014-08-14 03:21:31 <BlueMatt> script is only a first step
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301 2014-08-14 03:22:19 <BlueMatt> but, really, I'd settle for a verification of script verification and sciprt sigopcount and such as being pretty decent evidence
302 2014-08-14 03:22:26 <BlueMatt> though I'd never risk my mining reward on it
303 2014-08-14 03:23:30 * Luke-Jr wishes the mining reward were secondary to consensus of the network :x
304 2014-08-14 03:24:21 <davec> I personally don't think that just because something is an exceedingly hard task (and it is super difficult to get right), that means we shouldn't bother
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307 2014-08-14 03:24:48 <davec> BlueMatt: and I didn't intend to come off poorly - I'm aware and appreciate all of the work you've done in the area of alt implementations
308 2014-08-14 03:25:03 <Luke-Jr> davec: I think it would be a good idea to have btcd (perhaps optionally) use libbitcoinscript to double-check its results
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310 2014-08-14 03:25:46 <davec> I wouldn't have any issue with that as an optional build tag
311 2014-08-14 03:25:47 <BlueMatt> davec: oh, I agree
312 2014-08-14 03:25:55 <BlueMatt> I dont think we disagree here, my only issue is the marketing involved
313 2014-08-14 03:26:20 karc has joined
314 2014-08-14 03:26:23 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: well, nothing Bitcoin should really be marketted as safe today â¦
315 2014-08-14 03:26:29 <BlueMatt> not necessarily your own, but the fact is, today, some people are looking at using btcd to accept large sums of money or mine (without luke's belt-and-suspenders-I-cant-trust-this-implementation approach)
316 2014-08-14 03:26:31 <BlueMatt> and that is simply not ok
317 2014-08-14 03:27:31 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: btw, did you miss the guy who was just watching other pools' stratum for new prevblock hashes, and mining empty blocks against those? :P
318 2014-08-14 03:27:36 <gwillen> well, the main risk of mining with a buggy implementation is getting yourself forked off the network by generating a bad block, yes?
319 2014-08-14 03:27:46 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: heh, shit
320 2014-08-14 03:27:54 <gwillen> accepting large sums of money, on the other hand... (I guess mining rewards are somewhat large sums.)
321 2014-08-14 03:28:42 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: he got mad when bitcoind rejected his block because it was on the other side of a fork ;)
322 2014-08-14 03:29:06 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, sure it is... as long as it's not other peoples money
323 2014-08-14 03:29:20 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: ok, I stand corrected :)
324 2014-08-14 03:30:02 <gmaxwell> gwillen: the risk with accepting is someone mines something which forks off your implementation, and then rents hashpower to mine on that fork enough to make you consider the faited coins confirmed. It's not a cheap attack.
325 2014-08-14 03:30:06 <BlueMatt> davec: specifically, the reason I did the libbitcoinscript.so was for things like btcd and bitcoinj...if they cant/dont have the time to invest in a full-on mathematical proof, then they really need to be using bitcoin core for this
326 2014-08-14 03:30:12 <gwillen> well, the other risk is that a buggy implementation gets significant marketshare before the bugs are discovered
327 2014-08-14 03:30:20 <gwillen> in which case you get a large network fork
328 2014-08-14 03:30:45 <BlueMatt> ^ this
329 2014-08-14 03:30:47 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: in that case, it's no longer clear which implementation "wins"
330 2014-08-14 03:30:56 Sleepnbum has joined
331 2014-08-14 03:31:00 <gwillen> gmaxwell: if you get forked off it's not a lot of hashpower to screw you, if they're willing to wait for a retarget
332 2014-08-14 03:31:10 <gwillen> although that gives you a week at least to notice you've been forked
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334 2014-08-14 03:31:30 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yes, and this is a big problem
335 2014-08-14 03:31:31 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: well, it's clear but it depends on which implementation has the majority, and which one is stricter in what it accepts
336 2014-08-14 03:31:35 <BlueMatt> how do we recover in such a case?
337 2014-08-14 03:31:36 <gmaxwell> gwillen: there is no 'wait for a retarget'
338 2014-08-14 03:31:39 <gwillen> there are two outcomes where the network gets flaky but stays together
339 2014-08-14 03:31:48 <gwillen> and two where the minority is permanently forked off
340 2014-08-14 03:31:51 <gwillen> gmaxwell: oh, point
341 2014-08-14 03:31:58 <gwillen> gmaxwell: that does make it tougher
342 2014-08-14 03:32:00 <gmaxwell> gwillen: but e.g. if you'll transact at 6 blocks (or 2...) they can just take their merry time at least until you notice something is wrong.
343 2014-08-14 03:32:05 * gwillen nods
344 2014-08-14 03:32:06 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: softfork both probably
345 2014-08-14 03:32:29 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: that is still a terrible solution
346 2014-08-14 03:32:34 <gmaxwell> gwillen: If there is non-trivial hashpower that will also follow the fork the challenge is somewhat easier, and the cost lower.
347 2014-08-14 03:32:40 * gwillen nods
348 2014-08-14 03:32:42 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: yes, or we can hardfork both
349 2014-08-14 03:32:43 <Luke-Jr> :P
350 2014-08-14 03:32:44 <gmaxwell> but in that case it's also likely to get noticed.
351 2014-08-14 03:33:09 <gwillen> I wish there were a 'bitcoin observatory' that were watching for such things actively
352 2014-08-14 03:33:26 <gwillen> like there are several of for BGP
353 2014-08-14 03:33:26 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
354 2014-08-14 03:34:48 <gmaxwell> Well I have a pager that pages me on reorgs or forks of depth 3 that my node sees. But unfortunately in an attack there is no promise that anyone but the victim sees the weirdness.
355 2014-08-14 03:35:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: does it page you on invalid blocks with good PoW?
356 2014-08-14 03:35:26 <gwillen> well, a real 'observatory' would ideally get live feeds from all the major pools/merchants/exchanges
357 2014-08-14 03:35:32 <gwillen> in exchange for giving them alerts, presumably
358 2014-08-14 03:35:43 <gwillen> so it would see anything that anybody important sees
359 2014-08-14 03:35:50 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: just wait until pools are no longer relevant :P
360 2014-08-14 03:35:57 <Luke-Jr> (in this respect)
361 2014-08-14 03:35:57 <davec> BlueMeatt: I think having an optional build tag that also causes btcd to also verify against the .so is a fine idea for detecting and reporting issues
362 2014-08-14 03:36:00 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's based on the existing invalid fork detected code in bitcoind, which is a bit buggy.
363 2014-08-14 03:36:00 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: oh?
364 2014-08-14 03:36:11 <jrick> gmaxwell: run nodes for each implemetnation (bitcoind, btcd, whatever else) and check forks that way?
365 2014-08-14 03:36:42 <jrick> oh you said attack, maybe that's not what you were talking about
366 2014-08-14 03:36:58 <BlueMatt> davec: yea, and without that there should be a "WARNING: Could not load libbitcoinscript.so, DO NOT USE for consensus-critical applications"
367 2014-08-14 03:37:08 <BlueMatt> davec: I plan on trying to convince mike to add that for bitcoinj
368 2014-08-14 03:37:10 <gmaxwell> jrick: yes, but that has a N fold scalability loss (or worse, assuming some are more efficient than tohers)â it's something that I could do, it's not something that would be a good recommendation for merchants. .. would just create more pressure to use coinbase or other centeralized payment processors. :(
369 2014-08-14 03:37:20 <BlueMatt> (which may very well be optionally using the java-based script execution for now)
370 2014-08-14 03:37:35 <gmaxwell> But I like that above proposal for multiple script engines, ... that would have considerably less overhead.
371 2014-08-14 03:38:15 <jgarzik> build val lib into Moxie ;p
372 2014-08-14 03:38:55 <gmaxwell> A while back I'd pondered that the state-abstracted validation engine should really be bytecoded, and then implementations would just have to make their bytecoin engines agree, which might actually be possible to formally prove that they do. But thats a lot of worth to design.
373 2014-08-14 03:38:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: which?
374 2014-08-14 03:39:05 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: jinx
375 2014-08-14 03:39:28 <jgarzik> :)
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377 2014-08-14 03:40:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I meant the discussion above about being able to link multiple, isolated, validation engines. I dunno if you saw my observation in wizards a week weeks back tat was relevant to this:
378 2014-08-14 03:40:23 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I really like your .so idea, one could load multiple script engine .so's using dlopen and compare the outputs, even those of multiple bitcoind versions
379 2014-08-14 03:40:39 <BlueMatt> wumpus: first it needs trimmed down a lot....
380 2014-08-14 03:40:48 <wumpus> BlueMatt: why would it? just get a big machine :p
381 2014-08-14 03:40:49 <BlueMatt> but, yea
382 2014-08-14 03:41:11 <BlueMatt> heh, ok
383 2014-08-14 03:41:28 * BlueMatt does plan on upgrading to haswell-ep and throwing in some insane amount of memory
384 2014-08-14 03:41:49 <wumpus> I don't mean using it for everything, but for some specific purposes such as testing tools, it's nice to be able to
385 2014-08-14 03:41:50 <gmaxwell> 17:46 < gmaxwell> sipa: a potentially interesting observation: per node obfscuation of data stored in databases might serve the purpose of better isolating the database behavior from being consensus normative.
386 2014-08-14 03:41:54 <gmaxwell> 17:47 < gmaxwell> sipa: e.g. if the database had some crazy bug that made it lose some records, if the records have per node scrambling then its unlikely that consensus splits would fall along version lines.
387 2014-08-14 03:41:58 <gmaxwell> 17:47 < sipa> good point yes
388 2014-08-14 03:42:00 <gmaxwell> 17:50 < gmaxwell> (oblivious ram is the insane logical conclusion of that argument⦠but perhaps even the simple version is useful)
389 2014-08-14 03:42:36 <gmaxwell> wumpus: just get a big machine is a centralization pressure.
390 2014-08-14 03:42:57 <wumpus> gmaxwell: hardware is cheap, developers aren't
391 2014-08-14 03:43:46 <gmaxwell> development costs are O(1) with users, hardware is O(N). Developers are cheap, hardware isn't. It's just we don't have the right tools to get people for paying for technology instead of hardware. :)
392 2014-08-14 03:43:55 <wumpus> gmaxwell: needing a lot of implementation work is also a centralization pressure
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394 2014-08-14 03:44:39 <wumpus> anyhow I don't feel like arguing, I think bluematt did a great job by actually doing this and it can only improve from here
395 2014-08-14 03:44:49 <gmaxwell> Things were somewhat hopeless on that front since day one. :)
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401 2014-08-14 03:49:44 <davec> completely agree. I know that multiple consensus critical effort and proving equality is nearly impossible today with the current state, but if we don't work toward making it a reality, it won't ever happen. I'd rather face it head on than waiting for disaster to strike
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403 2014-08-14 03:51:42 <gmaxwell> It would be nice to see more testing infrastructure. The fact that matt created the block tester and found a lot of previously unknown corner cases in bitcoind (and created tests for them) increased my confidence of his work a lot, though it still had forking bugs found on several occasions. Unfortunately proving two programs in different languages do the same thing in any formal sense is basically beyond what the state of the science is ...
404 2014-08-14 03:51:43 TheSeven has joined
405 2014-08-14 03:51:48 <gmaxwell> ... right now.
406 2014-08-14 03:52:48 <jrick> I thought the llvm bytecode idea was great
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411 2014-08-14 03:53:12 <jrick> but then again, there could also be a gcc and llvm compiler difference that creates a forking situation
412 2014-08-14 03:53:22 <jrick> if bitcoind hit undefined state
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423 2014-08-14 03:55:45 <wumpus> well, compile it using llvm, compile it using gcc, load both :)
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427 2014-08-14 03:56:08 <jrick> I assume that static analysis has been done on bitcoind to ensure that unconfirmed state can't be hit?
428 2014-08-14 03:56:20 <jrick> because basically at that point the compiler can insert code to eat puppies
429 2014-08-14 03:56:22 <wumpus> llvm bytecode is not portable between CPU architectures, so it doesn't bring that much compared to binary blobs, you'd indeed need to compile to something like moxie or another VM instruction set that is completely specified
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435 2014-08-14 03:56:46 <wumpus> jrick: yes, there have been various static analysis done on bitcoind
436 2014-08-14 03:56:51 <jrick> nice
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438 2014-08-14 03:57:08 <jrick> erm, s/unconfirmed/undefined/
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448 2014-08-14 03:57:46 <jrick> too used to writing unconfirmed for wallet stuff..
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453 2014-08-14 03:58:06 <wumpus> see for example https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4601
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521 2014-08-14 03:59:17 <BlueMatt> did gmaxwell leave?
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523 2014-08-14 03:59:18 <BlueMatt> oh
524 2014-08-14 03:59:20 <wumpus> also many people ran cppcheck and clang analysis on it, not that static analysis is ever exhaustive
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527 2014-08-14 03:59:21 <BlueMatt> <gmaxwell> [03:46:07] It would be nice to see more testing infrastructure. The fact that matt created the block tester and found a lot of previously unknown corner cases in bitcoind (and created tests for them) increased my confidence of his work a lot, though it still had forking bugs found on several occasions. Unfortunately proving two programs in different languages do the same thing in any formal sense is basically beyond what the stat
528 2014-08-14 03:59:21 <BlueMatt> e of the science is ...
529 2014-08-14 03:59:21 <BlueMatt> no its not
530 2014-08-14 03:59:31 Michail1 has joined
531 2014-08-14 03:59:32 <gmaxwell> freenode bounced, I haven't seen anything since the last thing I said.
532 2014-08-14 03:59:36 epscy has joined
533 2014-08-14 03:59:37 <BlueMatt> there exist tools today to analyze program behaviour in this way
534 2014-08-14 03:59:44 <BlueMatt> esp being able to compile everything to llvm
535 2014-08-14 03:59:47 Internet13 has joined
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537 2014-08-14 03:59:52 <BlueMatt> which is becoming more and more possible these days
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542 2014-08-14 04:00:30 <jrick> gmaxwell: http://sprunge.us/UXGP
543 2014-08-14 04:00:31 <jrick> http://sprunge.us/UXGP
544 2014-08-14 04:00:37 <jrick> oops double paste
545 2014-08-14 04:00:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the closest thing I've seen is a proof that x86 code met a seperate formal specification. Or compcert which has formal proofs that the output implements the input.
546 2014-08-14 04:01:06 <wumpus> how is being able to compile everything to llvm a panacea?
547 2014-08-14 04:02:01 <gmaxwell> But I've never seen anyone do work on "<program a> and <program b> implement the same thing" in the limit it's not actually possible. (though it's probably possible for many real programs)
548 2014-08-14 04:02:21 <gmaxwell> (esp with a and b being written in different languages)
549 2014-08-14 04:02:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmmm, I thought I came across something like that based on llvm bytecode
550 2014-08-14 04:02:39 <BlueMatt> (since everything can be compiled to llvm these days)
551 2014-08-14 04:02:43 <gmaxwell> maybe! I'd like to see that paper.
552 2014-08-14 04:03:00 <jrick> highlight me too if you find it later :)
553 2014-08-14 04:03:31 <wumpus> I mean, everything can be compiled to x86 too, that doesn't help comparison either
554 2014-08-14 04:03:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmmmm, maybe I was wrong, but I had a discussion with someone a year or so ago and they mentioned this
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556 2014-08-14 04:03:52 <BlueMatt> wumpus: x86 is a crazy insane thing, llvm is at least somewhat, remotely, reasonable
557 2014-08-14 04:04:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: let me see
558 2014-08-14 04:04:23 <Arnavion> There was something on HN recently that decompiled x86 to LLVM bytecode
559 2014-08-14 04:04:23 <wumpus> BlueMatt: sure, llvm is lots easier to understand for humans, but I'm not sure it changes the theoretical problem
560 2014-08-14 04:04:39 <BlueMatt> wumpus: it doesnt(ish), but it makes it simpler to write code for it
561 2014-08-14 04:04:44 <BlueMatt> Arnavion: heh, nice
562 2014-08-14 04:04:48 <gmaxwell> So one of the seL4 papers implement a proof that the x86 output of gcc 4.5.something at -O1 also met the sel4 formal specification.
563 2014-08-14 04:05:16 <Arnavion> It was this: http://blog.trailofbits.com/2014/08/07/mcsema-is-officially-open-source/
564 2014-08-14 04:05:39 <jrick> BlueMatt: oh btw, thought I'd mention it later than never, but it's just google's go implementation that requires stack swapping when calling into c libraries. gccgo doesn't need it
565 2014-08-14 04:05:49 <jrick> so, implemntation detail, not language
566 2014-08-14 04:06:15 <BlueMatt> jrick: hmm, yea, ok
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568 2014-08-14 04:08:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the stack swapping issue is IIRC why rust dropped split stacks in the rust implementation.
569 2014-08-14 04:08:28 <BlueMatt> thats an annoying issue
570 2014-08-14 04:09:33 <gmaxwell> well it's a platform C ABI issue, in theory the C abi for a platform could be setup so that stacks worked the split stacks way everywhere. I had though there was some inititive to support that in GCC but I dunno where its gone.
571 2014-08-14 04:09:34 <wumpus> Arnavion: I do know about the S2E framework, one of their tools disassembles instructions using qemu to an intermediate format which is then converted to LLVM bytecode for symbolic execution, but it's nowhere near perfect and I'm not sure how it could be used to prove that two programs do the same
572 2014-08-14 04:10:41 <jrick> gmaxwell: hmm am I wrong about gccgo then? I thought it didn't need the swap
573 2014-08-14 04:11:21 <gmaxwell> The attraction of the moxie stuff mentioned previously is that the simulator is so simple its relatively easy to be confident that two implementations are functionally equal. (and in languages where the tools exist, e.g. ada, C, ocaml, you could prove a moxie simulator implementation faithfully implemented some formal specification)
574 2014-08-14 04:11:42 <gmaxwell> jrick: I think it does, I think it just doesn't use splitstacks. But I have not followed go that closely.
575 2014-08-14 04:12:00 <gmaxwell> if my belief is correct then it means you get some huge stack overheads from threading.
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586 2014-08-14 04:13:03 <jrick> Gccgo supports splitting goroutine stacks as the gc compiler does, but currently only on x86 (32-bit or 64-bit) and only when using the gold linker (on other processors, each goroutine will have a large stack, and a deep series of function calls may run past the end of the stack and crash the program).
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589 2014-08-14 04:13:08 <jrick> well there
590 2014-08-14 04:13:10 ConnorM_ has joined
591 2014-08-14 04:13:12 <jrick> but this is getting a bit off topic
592 2014-08-14 04:13:14 ak_ has joined
593 2014-08-14 04:13:20 <gmaxwell> hm!
594 2014-08-14 04:13:39 <gmaxwell> then I dunno how it could call into C code without overhead, but ::shrugs:: indeed. :)
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599 2014-08-14 04:17:28 <wumpus> gmaxwell: moxie is a better choice than llvm because it's a platform independent, fully specified instruction set
600 2014-08-14 04:17:55 <wumpus> I mean, in theory then, a lot more tools exist for llvm
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602 2014-08-14 04:19:21 <wumpus> but then you have to handle llvm-for-x86-32, llvm-for-x86-64, llvm-for-arm32, etc which are all slightly different flavors
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606 2014-08-14 04:20:50 <wumpus> although the differences between those are in the typing and the available instructions, not how the instructions are defined, AFAIK
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635 2014-08-14 04:45:32 <earlz> Is there a configure flag or some such to not compile tests? and/or why are tests compiled by default anyway
636 2014-08-14 04:45:58 <gmaxwell> because anyone who builds bitcoin should run them
637 2014-08-14 04:46:16 wallet42 has joined
638 2014-08-14 04:46:24 <wumpus> hmm then again, to be useful, the moxie-compiled version would then have to be the only version that is executed; if the actual bitcoind's in the field still have their consensus code compiled to the native architecture, any result derived from the moxie version would be questionable
639 2014-08-14 04:46:24 <gmaxwell> (otherwise miscompilation may have very unwelcome effects for you)
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641 2014-08-14 04:47:01 <earlz> So you're saying we should only use reference binaries, even using an x86 emulator on odd architectures? lol
642 2014-08-14 04:47:02 <wumpus> yes, always run at least src/test/test_bitcoin, it's critical for this project
643 2014-08-14 04:47:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: With a bytecode you could say 'this blob is the normative specification of the system' precisely analogous to specifying the ECC generator.
644 2014-08-14 04:47:24 <gmaxwell> earlz: this has nothing to do with x86.
645 2014-08-14 04:47:24 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, that would have to be done, then
646 2014-08-14 04:47:35 maaku has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
647 2014-08-14 04:47:54 <wumpus> gmaxwell: and interpreters would have to be proven to actually implement moxie correctly, they can't get too creative with optimizations
648 2014-08-14 04:48:09 <wumpus> otherwise the point is defeated, too
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650 2014-08-14 04:48:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: googleing around for formal equivalence checking llvm does turn up some people working in this space, not sure if anything is plug-and-play easy, but it looks possible
651 2014-08-14 04:48:58 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yes, but since the interpreter is straighforward and simple there is a clear path to doing that, and a lot of work has been done wrt formal verification of simple machines.
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657 2014-08-14 04:50:10 <earlz> would it be a decent idea to run the tests as part of the build system?
658 2014-08-14 04:50:13 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sure - I can see how a simple interpreter would be more feasible to verify formally than the general case. But maybepeople start throwing JIT's and such into the mix...
659 2014-08-14 04:50:17 <wumpus> earlz: no
660 2014-08-14 04:50:23 <wumpus> earlz: though you can do 'make check'!
661 2014-08-14 04:50:31 crunk-juice has joined
662 2014-08-14 04:50:31 <earlz> was not aware of that
663 2014-08-14 04:50:33 <gmaxwell> earlz: because of cross compiling you can't always run what you built.
664 2014-08-14 04:50:46 <earlz> ah, good point
665 2014-08-14 04:50:51 mmatthew_43 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
666 2014-08-14 04:50:52 <gmaxwell> perhaps the build process should tell you "now run make check" at the end. :)
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668 2014-08-14 04:52:10 <wumpus> heh, yes that'd work
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673 2014-08-14 04:56:07 <wumpus> so yes, adding the tests as part of the build system is a decent idea, but not in the trivial way
674 2014-08-14 04:56:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell jrick: http://spinroot.com/spin/Workshops/ws12/spin2012_submission_10.pdf references it, and a few people cite http://www.pgbovine.net/PhD-memoir/ucklee-cav-2011.pdf
675 2014-08-14 04:56:25 <BlueMatt> both of which appear to be not released, but one could email them/look further
676 2014-08-14 04:56:43 <BlueMatt> also, that was after cursory google'ing, before doing anything one might google further
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681 2014-08-14 04:59:23 <gmaxwell> hm, now you're reminding me that I read a paper on some super optimizer that used that kind of formal verification that candidate optimizatons were correct.
682 2014-08-14 04:59:42 <wumpus> BlueMatt: emailing them may be a good idea in any case, if anyone is doing research in this, it would maybe make them aware that bitcoin is a good guinea pig for this :-)
683 2014-08-14 05:00:20 banghouse has joined
684 2014-08-14 05:00:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: there seem to be a few papers analysing whether optimizations were correct
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690 2014-08-14 05:07:06 <earlz> bignum.h was moved to only for testing?
691 2014-08-14 05:07:28 <wumpus> earlz: yes, it's only used to compare to now
692 2014-08-14 05:07:44 Aido_ has joined
693 2014-08-14 05:07:52 <wumpus> the script interpreter has its own type now, scriptnum
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696 2014-08-14 05:09:03 <cfields> wumpus: everything is ready to go, i'm just having trouble getting travis to light it up for us
697 2014-08-14 05:09:06 <earlz> ugh always making it harder to mine a new genesis block. I prefer testing on a private super-low difficulty network
698 2014-08-14 05:09:10 <jrick> BlueMatt: thanks, reading about FAuST now, looks neat
699 2014-08-14 05:09:12 <cfields> i'm very annoyed
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703 2014-08-14 05:09:56 <wumpus> cfields: ohhh still administrative issues, that's a pity
704 2014-08-14 05:10:12 <BlueMatt> i thought travis had no verification step?
705 2014-08-14 05:10:29 <cfields> so, i'm beginning to consider other possibilities. I figured I'd give em to the end of the week, then start working on something else
706 2014-08-14 05:10:37 trixisowned has joined
707 2014-08-14 05:10:52 <wumpus> faust? the signal processing language?
708 2014-08-14 05:12:33 <wumpus> BlueMatt: we need a pretty specific setup
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719 2014-08-14 05:16:55 <cfields> BlueMatt: well, one of my concerns, there's no means (that i see?) of accounting for script behavior changes
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721 2014-08-14 05:17:08 <cfields> no in-api versioning, that is
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723 2014-08-14 05:17:39 <BlueMatt> script behavior changes???
724 2014-08-14 05:17:44 <BlueMatt> we dont do those
725 2014-08-14 05:17:59 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: like you add p2sh support, how do you make sure someone isn't linking to an old version of the code?
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727 2014-08-14 05:18:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so versioning?
728 2014-08-14 05:18:37 <gmaxwell> and some genius installs this thing as a system lib, and users are running foowallet on debian shipping a copy from 1974?
729 2014-08-14 05:18:39 <cfields> gmaxwell: yes, that was the example i had in mind :)
730 2014-08-14 05:18:54 <gmaxwell> probably as simple as adding a call that returns the version and then just being able to test at runtime.
731 2014-08-14 05:19:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: libtool does that..
732 2014-08-14 05:19:09 <cfields> no.
733 2014-08-14 05:19:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: isnt that the point of libtool versioning?
734 2014-08-14 05:19:42 <sipa> gmaxwell, BlueMatt, cfields: versioning is done through flags of optional script features; make the library croak if you pass an unknown flag
735 2014-08-14 05:20:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that might be better, since libtool versioning can only track one thing
736 2014-08-14 05:20:21 <sipa> because any functional change will always only be for a subsey of the chain, the default should never change anyway
737 2014-08-14 05:21:03 <BlueMatt> yea, thats my point, so you can do libtool versioning to track if you're running a copy that supports the latest soft-forks?
738 2014-08-14 05:21:15 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: but what about stable branches? ;)
739 2014-08-14 05:21:16 <wump> libtool versioning may still make sense for other version changes, such as new methods
740 2014-08-14 05:21:30 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: applications should refuse to build on debian.
741 2014-08-14 05:21:32 wumpus is now known as wumpus
742 2014-08-14 05:21:34 <Luke-Jr> â¦
743 2014-08-14 05:21:38 <sipa> lol
744 2014-08-14 05:21:44 gdm85 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
745 2014-08-14 05:21:48 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: so everyone is required to run Windows? ;)
746 2014-08-14 05:21:51 sahlhoff has quit (Quit: sahlhoff)
747 2014-08-14 05:22:00 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no, everyone is required to run a vm
748 2014-08-14 05:22:22 DigiByte has joined
749 2014-08-14 05:22:28 <sipa> does a sony rootkit suffice?
750 2014-08-14 05:22:33 <BlueMatt> yes
751 2014-08-14 05:23:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: good call wrt flags.
752 2014-08-14 05:23:08 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: libbitcoinscript should just be in Debian volatile
753 2014-08-14 05:23:26 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: same category as antivirus definitions and spam detection stuff
754 2014-08-14 05:23:26 <sipa> i fon't understand the problem
755 2014-08-14 05:23:55 <cfields> BlueMatt: regardless of how it's solved, it needs to be solved before exposing the lib. you only get one chance at an api :)
756 2014-08-14 05:24:12 <Luke-Jr> cfields: pfft libtool versioning works just fine for API breakage
757 2014-08-14 05:24:13 <wumpus> unless you use API versioning
758 2014-08-14 05:24:17 <wumpus> right
759 2014-08-14 05:24:36 <wumpus> libbitcoin-script.so.1 libbitcoin-script.so.2 can have breaking API changes
760 2014-08-14 05:25:27 <wumpus> API version should be decoupled from 'bitcoin network' version though, so the flags system makes a lot of sense for that
761 2014-08-14 05:25:37 <Luke-Jr> agreed
762 2014-08-14 05:25:38 <gmaxwell> Anyone ever run a number on how often a pubkey is reused within a transaction?
763 2014-08-14 05:25:43 <cfields> mm, i really don't like libtool versioning for this
764 2014-08-14 05:25:53 <cfields> can't put my finger on why though. i'll think on it tonight
765 2014-08-14 05:26:13 <Luke-Jr> cfields: this is precisely what libtool versioning exists for (ABI and API breaks)
766 2014-08-14 05:26:21 <gmaxwell> speaking of apis.
767 2014-08-14 05:26:41 <wumpus> you *need* some kind of API versioning, you might think you're setting it in stone right now, but things always change
768 2014-08-14 05:27:05 <Luke-Jr> I actually named libblkmaker with -0.1 in the base name just in case
769 2014-08-14 05:27:07 <BlueMatt> I dont want to return a SUCCESS/ERROR/INVALID_CALL tuple
770 2014-08-14 05:27:12 <Luke-Jr> so now libblkmaker 0.4 still says libblkmaker-0.1 :P
771 2014-08-14 05:27:20 <BlueMatt> wumpus: yes, hence libtool versioning.......
772 2014-08-14 05:27:56 <BlueMatt> s/a...tuple/from a ...enum/
773 2014-08-14 05:28:04 <sipa> why not?
774 2014-08-14 05:28:14 <BlueMatt> because...simple api? I dunno
775 2014-08-14 05:28:21 <BlueMatt> feels better to me to just do a libtool version
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777 2014-08-14 05:28:33 <sipa> i think these are independent
778 2014-08-14 05:28:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: so libsecp256k1 does not completely uniformly follow the C norm of assignment like argument order. e.g. foo(*output, const*input). secp256k1_ecdsa_sign is wrong, secp256k1_ecdsa_recover_compact is wrong, and secp256k1_ecdsa_privkey_export
779 2014-08-14 05:28:46 <BlueMatt> sipa: you suggested failing on invalid flags?
780 2014-08-14 05:28:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes
781 2014-08-14 05:28:56 <BlueMatt> so you'd need to return a third value, INVALID_CALL
782 2014-08-14 05:29:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes
783 2014-08-14 05:29:02 <BlueMatt> you dont really just want to return false for all of that
784 2014-08-14 05:29:08 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: bcscript_compatiblity_check(BCSCRIPT_NEWEST_FEATURE)
785 2014-08-14 05:29:09 <sipa> indeed
786 2014-08-14 05:29:27 <Luke-Jr> run it at startup, fail there
787 2014-08-14 05:29:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'd use api changes for features of the library, not of the scripting language
788 2014-08-14 05:29:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: like if we want one fay support for batch verification
789 2014-08-14 05:30:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: but clearly if someone is linking libbitcoinscript.so.$BEFORE_P2SH, they're doing it wrong and should face build errors
790 2014-08-14 05:30:05 <cfields> BlueMatt: at least include some sort of version define so that client apps/libs can know what they're linking against, then?
791 2014-08-14 05:30:07 <wumpus> sipa: exactly
792 2014-08-14 05:30:31 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: then use macros
793 2014-08-14 05:30:33 <sipa> or add a function "return supported flags"
794 2014-08-14 05:30:34 <BlueMatt> cfields: yea, that goes in when script/bitcoinscript.h moves to a proper include/bitcoinscript.h
795 2014-08-14 05:30:36 <sipa> fixed
796 2014-08-14 05:30:50 <sipa> you need to chrck whether the p2sh flag is supporyed befote using it
797 2014-08-14 05:31:06 <BlueMatt> which should happen before release, but before merge? meh
798 2014-08-14 05:31:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: also, any thoughts on moving the static state out of a global and making a secp256k1 context that one shelps around as a first argument to every function?
799 2014-08-14 05:31:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: why?
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801 2014-08-14 05:31:30 <cfields> gmaxwell: i already tried that :)
802 2014-08-14 05:31:33 <cfields> he didn't go for it :)
803 2014-08-14 05:31:57 <sipa> i understand there is a cleansiness argument
804 2014-08-14 05:32:17 <sipa> but there is 0 point in ever having multiple copies, and it's not a tiny data structure
805 2014-08-14 05:32:47 <Luke-Jr> #define BCSCRIPT_COMPATIBILITY() do { extern __bcscript_<newestfeature>; __bcscript_<newestfeature> = 1; } while(0)
806 2014-08-14 05:32:55 <Luke-Jr> then change <newestfeature> when necessary
807 2014-08-14 05:33:05 <wumpus> a context structure would make sense if you ever intend to ever add mutable state
808 2014-08-14 05:33:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: It's common, and makes it much harder to fail to initilize. If in the future you wanted to add a cache of WNAF Q precomputation, it would be a more modest API change (as the cache would be mutable state).
809 2014-08-14 05:33:26 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: sure, this is what I was suggesting
810 2014-08-14 05:33:31 <BlueMatt> well, +/-
811 2014-08-14 05:33:47 <gmaxwell> E.g. if you were doing an application where public keys were reused a lot and could arrange to verify signatures in pubkey sorted order.
812 2014-08-14 05:33:49 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I guess the __ prefix is a no-no
813 2014-08-14 05:34:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: good point about that
814 2014-08-14 05:34:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: still no reason to copy it ;)
815 2014-08-14 05:34:28 <BlueMatt> well, ok, whatever, y'all can decide...I prefer the simpler case of putting a version in the .h file and moving the .h to include/ and installing it (which would need to happen before its a "released" library anyway)
816 2014-08-14 05:34:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: could have an empty context
817 2014-08-14 05:34:31 <gmaxwell> (caching would have ~0 overhead, since you'd just keep one entry, and the check would only need to compare the pubkey and early terminate if they're not the same)
818 2014-08-14 05:34:39 <BlueMatt> but it doesnt need to be in the .so
819 2014-08-14 05:35:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: putting it in the .h doesn't work; it would causr unexpected failure when running with the wtong .so
820 2014-08-14 05:35:01 <wumpus> global mutable contexts are annoying (see opengl), if it's just a lump of read-only data I don't see the point
821 2014-08-14 05:35:38 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: heh, see DirectFB? :p
822 2014-08-14 05:35:42 <sipa> as i said: keep versioning of the library distinct from versioning script features
823 2014-08-14 05:35:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: no, when you build against the .h it decides which version to link against at build-time, allowing you to link against whatever you want and then it will only run with that version
824 2014-08-14 05:35:51 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I've never actually used directfb
825 2014-08-14 05:35:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: in that case you probably want a _init() that gives you an immutable context, and then a _thread_init(immutable_context*) the gives you the mutable one. To be excessively snazzy the functoins could take either (with sutiable typedef adventures) and check which one they got. (first word of the context should be a canary value that tells you it's initilized and which one it is)
826 2014-08-14 05:36:07 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: *everything* is a somestruct->function(somestruct, â¦)
827 2014-08-14 05:36:47 <sipa> BlueMatt: how do you make it only run with that version?
828 2014-08-14 05:36:50 <cfields> Luke-Jr: raii hides that away quite easily
829 2014-08-14 05:36:59 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: so c-based polymorphism like glib and friends
830 2014-08-14 05:37:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: see my #define earlier?
831 2014-08-14 05:37:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: that's even overly restrictive... linking eith a newer version is perfectly fine
832 2014-08-14 05:37:22 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yeah, but typing it out all the time is annoying
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834 2014-08-14 05:37:50 <gmaxwell> wumpus: in large applications (e.g. like a browser) it can be quite difficult to be sure a global-stated object is initilizated without passing around a proxy context in any case. And for secp256k1 there is at least one optimization that wants mutiable state. (verification for things that reuse pubkeys a lot can be made MUCH faster if there is a one entry cache)
835 2014-08-14 05:37:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if there's a newer version, you probably want to upgrade the rest ;)
836 2014-08-14 05:38:06 <cfields> BlueMatt: what about deciding at build-time? It'll just build against whichever is symlinked
837 2014-08-14 05:38:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: probably, yes
838 2014-08-14 05:38:15 stapler117 has joined
839 2014-08-14 05:38:20 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but not certainly
840 2014-08-14 05:38:37 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so just add dummy ints instead of renaming one?
841 2014-08-14 05:38:39 stapler117 is now known as Guest46788
842 2014-08-14 05:38:43 <sipa> bleh
843 2014-08-14 05:38:52 SwampTony has joined
844 2014-08-14 05:38:56 * sipa likes a runtime function that returns supported flags
845 2014-08-14 05:39:03 <cfields> sipa: yes please :)
846 2014-08-14 05:39:07 * Luke-Jr does too
847 2014-08-14 05:39:15 <cfields> i figured that would be the popular opinion around here
848 2014-08-14 05:39:27 johnsoft has joined
849 2014-08-14 05:39:28 <sipa> and then use versioning for library api/feature changes, but not for script features
850 2014-08-14 05:39:36 <cfields> exactly
851 2014-08-14 05:39:47 <gmaxwell> I like that.
852 2014-08-14 05:40:15 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: btw, mostly unrelated to this ⦠did you ever look into porting BCCoreGUI to libbitcoin?
853 2014-08-14 05:40:38 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agreed, but there is some elegance to simple functions, instead of 'class methods', as well, especially if there doesn't really need to be state
854 2014-08-14 05:40:45 <Luke-Jr> if it has everything needed for a SPV wallet, might be a good chance to combine it with BlueMatt's libbitcoinscript to get a SPV BCCoreGUI
855 2014-08-14 05:41:01 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: not really
856 2014-08-14 05:41:12 <sipa> gor SPV you don't need libbitcoinscript...
857 2014-08-14 05:41:53 Guest46788 is now known as stapler117
858 2014-08-14 05:41:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: more on the high end, on NUMA machines you will likely want to have multiple copies of the global state, since memory access to remote nodes is expensive.. though perhaps thats a bit of an exotic optimization.
859 2014-08-14 05:41:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you do if you want to display 0conf without being totally spoofable
860 2014-08-14 05:42:11 hmsimha has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
861 2014-08-14 05:42:23 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
862 2014-08-14 05:42:25 <sipa> and i would be opposed to putting signing/utility code in it... i like very much that it it is *purely* consensus code
863 2014-08-14 05:42:30 <gmaxwell> Alternatively, all the precomputed stuff in secp256k1 could just be static data in the text segment.
864 2014-08-14 05:42:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yeah, I'd assume libbitcoin has that already
865 2014-08-14 05:43:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: fair enough, though that's trivially bypassable
866 2014-08-14 05:43:04 johnsoft has joined
867 2014-08-14 05:43:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: and change libsecp256k1 from 30kB to 700 kN? :)
868 2014-08-14 05:43:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: bypassable?
869 2014-08-14 05:43:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: SPV needs libbitcoinscript if someday fraud alerts are something spv clients do. (hey, satoshi mentioned itâ so it's okay to bring that up outside of #-wizards, right? :) )
870 2014-08-14 05:43:55 lclc has joined
871 2014-08-14 05:44:08 <sipa> no that is not a typo, i clearly mean kilonewton
872 2014-08-14 05:44:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: yep! :P ... yea, okay, thats a point.
873 2014-08-14 05:44:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but I'm not sure what building on top of libbitcoin would add; we already have everything needed to make a SPV client too
874 2014-08-14 05:44:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not in library form
875 2014-08-14 05:45:07 <cfields> wumpus: i'll try to catch you tomorrow ~8h to discuss a few c-i options. I really don't want that to stall.
876 2014-08-14 05:45:11 <cfields> nnite
877 2014-08-14 05:45:18 <sipa> Luke-Jr: first send to an invalid script, then to a normal one
878 2014-08-14 05:45:19 <wumpus> ok nite cfields
879 2014-08-14 05:45:22 <sipa> cya
880 2014-08-14 05:45:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: i like the simplicity of it
881 2014-08-14 05:45:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so the SPV client fetches the inputs' txs..
882 2014-08-14 05:46:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: hiw?
883 2014-08-14 05:46:15 <sipa> *_how
884 2014-08-14 05:46:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok, true, but porting over the RPC interface as well as the GUI to a completely different library like libbitcoin could be just as much work as implementing a new wallet
885 2014-08-14 05:46:28 <sipa> agree
886 2014-08-14 05:46:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: surely if it received its own transaction, the peer that sent it has the input's too
887 2014-08-14 05:46:55 <sipa> not arbitrarily deep
888 2014-08-14 05:46:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: which is pointless, as SPV wallets already exist, may as well slap a bitcoind-compatibile-ish RPC interface on top
889 2014-08-14 05:47:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right now, we do..
890 2014-08-14 05:47:08 <gmaxwell> hah. it's kind of annoying that CHECKSIG returns a value and there isn't, instead a CHECKSIGEQUALSVALIDATE which takes the return value as an additional input.
891 2014-08-14 05:47:20 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: all existing SPV wallets suck.
892 2014-08-14 05:47:34 <gmaxwell> makes it hard to hoist ECDSA validation checking out of the script processing.
893 2014-08-14 05:47:53 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: making them not suck is probably less work than starting from scratch
894 2014-08-14 05:48:06 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: dunno, I like Bitcoin Core GUIâ¦
895 2014-08-14 05:48:40 <gmaxwell> Since some clown can write scripts that are only valid if ECDSA fails, so you can't just assume it passes, make a note of the verification you need to perform, and consider the transaction invalid later if it fails that check.
896 2014-08-14 05:48:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: an alternative is spliyting mutable and immuyable state, leave the immutable part as is, and have an optiinal pointer tona mutable one passed to verify
897 2014-08-14 05:49:11 <sipa> sorry , phone typing
898 2014-08-14 05:49:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I like it as well
899 2014-08-14 05:49:26 <BlueMatt> my issue is that you want to ensure that a softfork requires application developers to rewrite their application
900 2014-08-14 05:49:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: no it does not
901 2014-08-14 05:49:39 <Luke-Jr> reminder: at some point, it'd be nice to split that Step function :p
902 2014-08-14 05:49:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: not as long as it is nit a hard fork
903 2014-08-14 05:49:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: Thats not crazy, regardless, we should probably add a canary to the state structs... to at least make it fail safe against foolish users who could call it without initilization.
904 2014-08-14 05:50:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but seeing how people are always complaining about it, I've kind of lost motivation to work on it, not that I have much time to work on GUIs these days
905 2014-08-14 05:50:34 <sipa> agree with the step function, but let's punt that?
906 2014-08-14 05:50:44 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
907 2014-08-14 05:50:57 <sipa> until all other script changes are over
908 2014-08-14 05:50:57 <BlueMatt> sipa: the point of using a libbitcoinscript is that you're doing a full validation thing, and then you really do need to follow soft forks
909 2014-08-14 05:51:02 <BlueMatt> otherwise your stuff is broken
910 2014-08-14 05:51:25 <sipa> BlueMatt: i agree with encouraging, not with forcing
911 2014-08-14 05:51:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: just seemed like it would "automatically" solve the alternate verification stuff
912 2014-08-14 05:52:07 <sipa> alternate verification?
913 2014-08-14 05:52:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: well, I think you should force them to change code, even if the change they make is "fuck it, I'll fix this later"
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917 2014-08-14 05:54:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: and people will just not upgrade the library to avoid the incompatibility
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919 2014-08-14 05:54:42 <BlueMatt> hopefully their os ships the library so they have to
920 2014-08-14 05:54:57 <sipa> i agree with what you're saying, but it's the wrong place to enforce that imho
921 2014-08-14 05:54:59 <Luke-Jr> __attribute__((deprecated))
922 2014-08-14 05:55:00 <Luke-Jr> :p
923 2014-08-14 05:55:20 <Luke-Jr> of course, that means you have to force a recompile
924 2014-08-14 05:55:38 <gmaxwell> this has all kinda of gone a little too forward looking, how about the library exist before you lament people being slow to upgrade it. :P
925 2014-08-14 05:55:48 <Luke-Jr> bcscript_check_version(expected) if (expected < current) sleep(30);
926 2014-08-14 05:55:55 <sipa> loi
927 2014-08-14 05:56:08 Sauvin has joined
928 2014-08-14 05:56:10 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: naaa, sleep(60*60)
929 2014-08-14 05:56:11 Sauvin has quit (Changing host)
930 2014-08-14 05:56:11 Sauvin has joined
931 2014-08-14 05:56:17 <BlueMatt> make their users complain like hell about slow startup times
932 2014-08-14 05:56:51 <Luke-Jr> puts("Your software is outdated, please upgrade it. Type 'ignore' to continue (automatic after 2 minutes)");
933 2014-08-14 05:57:01 <gmaxwell> while(1){bcscript_check_version(expected); if < whine(); sleep(); dlopen_magic();} :P
934 2014-08-14 05:57:29 chax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
935 2014-08-14 05:57:31 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: or just auto-download the update from the web :P
936 2014-08-14 05:57:42 <gmaxwell> "How do you ensure the the software is current? Exponential backoff."
937 2014-08-14 05:57:55 chax has joined
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939 2014-08-14 05:59:49 <wumpus> anyhow the problem with slow-to-update people already exists right now, some update scenarios may become easier if you can just drop in another scripting engine instead of having to upgrade the entire program
940 2014-08-14 05:59:51 chax has joined
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942 2014-08-14 06:00:25 chax has joined
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944 2014-08-14 06:03:19 <BlueMatt> so...force a call to bitcoinscript_init(), which returns flags which are supported, otherwise calls to bitcoinscript functions will assert() and crash your program
945 2014-08-14 06:03:22 <BlueMatt> ?
946 2014-08-14 06:03:36 <BlueMatt> then at least hopefully people wont skip the call to _init
947 2014-08-14 06:04:03 _nskelsey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
948 2014-08-14 06:04:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: even better, pass the flags you require to exist to the init function
949 2014-08-14 06:04:43 <wumpus> good idea to have a function to retur the supported caps, not sure the call should be called init if it doesn't initialize any state
950 2014-08-14 06:05:33 chax has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
951 2014-08-14 06:05:55 <wumpus> otherwise you get the same kind of problems gmaxwell was talking about above, about initialization order in large programs
952 2014-08-14 06:06:00 <gmaxwell> well script really should initilize state anyways, since you probably want a static scratchpad for execution setup. Ideally script should just always allocate the worst case memory usage so you cannot fail at runtime.
953 2014-08-14 06:06:09 pooler has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
954 2014-08-14 06:06:19 <gmaxwell> (and script needs more state than you can reasonably put on the stack)
955 2014-08-14 06:06:37 davispuhh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
956 2014-08-14 06:06:40 <gmaxwell> hm actually it doesn't, not current versions at least.
957 2014-08-14 06:06:54 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
958 2014-08-14 06:06:57 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
959 2014-08-14 06:07:02 <gmaxwell> But from a structural perspective you'd want to handle future soft-forks that don't without changing the pai.
960 2014-08-14 06:07:05 <gmaxwell> er api.
961 2014-08-14 06:07:14 <wumpus> yeah, things start to get unreasonable to put on the stack very quickly
962 2014-08-14 06:07:38 <gmaxwell> Right now script needs on the order of 260k peak state, plus the transaction itself, I believe.
963 2014-08-14 06:07:41 <wumpus> taking into account platforms with very limited stack sizes especially for threads
964 2014-08-14 06:07:46 akstunt600 has joined
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966 2014-08-14 06:08:29 <wumpus> so I suppose a scratchpad 'context' makes sense then, you'd have to allocate multiple to do multithreaded verification?
967 2014-08-14 06:08:40 <sipa> yup
968 2014-08-14 06:08:48 Sauvin has quit (Quit: mIRC for Linux ain't all it's cracked up to be.)
969 2014-08-14 06:09:07 Sauvin has joined
970 2014-08-14 06:09:32 psgs is now known as away!~psgs@2001:41d0:1:68a3::39|psgs
971 2014-08-14 06:10:15 <gmaxwell> would also allow the context to carry around things like an ECDSA cache.
972 2014-08-14 06:11:08 sabfer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
973 2014-08-14 06:12:15 hmsimha has joined
974 2014-08-14 06:12:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: so...bitcoinscript_init(FLAGS_I_USE), which returns flags which you really need to implement if you didnt pass them, then you can if(bitcoinscript_init(1)) log("WARNING: NEED TO UPGRADE");
975 2014-08-14 06:12:45 <BlueMatt> ?
976 2014-08-14 06:12:53 <wumpus> (different from secp256k1 where, if it had contexts, different threads would be able to share one context, and would usually also be encouraged to)
977 2014-08-14 06:13:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, having a large context is kinda gross, but may be needed at some point :(
978 2014-08-14 06:13:32 <BlueMatt> still, I deliberately avoided having an ECDSA cache in the script execution because that should be application-level (like the whole script cache is in bitcoin core)
979 2014-08-14 06:13:41 <BlueMatt> again, my preference is minimal, minimal, minimal
980 2014-08-14 06:13:57 rodarmor has joined
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982 2014-08-14 06:15:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: yup, and then fail to work afterwards :)
983 2014-08-14 06:15:14 <sipa> sure, i'm not convinced about the ecdsa cache
984 2014-08-14 06:15:19 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: dynamic memory allocation in the middle of script execution is hardly 'minimal'. :) It means excution could randomly fail based on perfectly valid pertubations of the system state.
985 2014-08-14 06:15:40 <gmaxwell> And yea, the cache was an example, it's hard to put it externally, because to use it safely it needs to be savvy of script internals.
986 2014-08-14 06:15:50 <sipa> but making scriot execution work without memory allocation would be ReallyNice(tm)
987 2014-08-14 06:16:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: you just said you didnt want it to fail to work?
988 2014-08-14 06:17:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: do we do any dynamic memory allocation now?
989 2014-08-14 06:17:06 <gmaxwell> 0_o
990 2014-08-14 06:17:06 <sipa> tons
991 2014-08-14 06:17:08 <gmaxwell> yes.
992 2014-08-14 06:17:12 _nskelsey_ has joined
993 2014-08-14 06:17:14 <gmaxwell> like ... every operation.
994 2014-08-14 06:17:19 <sipa> the script stack is dynamic
995 2014-08-14 06:17:28 <BlueMatt> in EvalScript
996 2014-08-14 06:17:28 <gmaxwell> (thank you C++ from hiding these details so that people aren't even aware of them!)
997 2014-08-14 06:17:28 <sipa> the items on the stack are dynamic
998 2014-08-14 06:17:30 <wumpus> it would also be a large break from how most of bitcoin is programmed, we literally use local vectors and such about everywhere
999 2014-08-14 06:17:36 <BlueMatt> i havent read it in forever
1000 2014-08-14 06:17:57 <sipa> wumpus: yeah, unfortunately
1001 2014-08-14 06:18:04 <gmaxwell> fortunately it appears easy to know the upper bound.
1002 2014-08-14 06:18:10 <BlueMatt> ouch, yea, havent read that in forever
1003 2014-08-14 06:18:12 <BlueMatt> yea
1004 2014-08-14 06:18:32 <wumpus> anyhow, changing the scripting engine to be more memory friendly should be orthogonal to having a exporting library, and its interface
1005 2014-08-14 06:18:32 <gmaxwell> (since the number of operations are limited and the size of objects is limited)
1006 2014-08-14 06:18:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: if you rely on a feature that the library does not have, yes it should fail
1007 2014-08-14 06:18:51 <sipa> though just querying what is supported is nicer
1008 2014-08-14 06:19:01 <sipa> wumpus: ack
1009 2014-08-14 06:19:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, sure, but I meant if you dont use a feature that the library thinks you should
1010 2014-08-14 06:19:04 <wumpus> I think it's important to make the current scripting engine available, if it is changed for this purpose, it kind of defeats the purpose
1011 2014-08-14 06:19:05 <BlueMatt> ie p2sh version 2
1012 2014-08-14 06:19:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: i don't think that is enforcable
1013 2014-08-14 06:19:29 <sipa> it can be a hint
1014 2014-08-14 06:19:34 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, that is what I was suggesting
1015 2014-08-14 06:19:38 <sipa> ok
1016 2014-08-14 06:19:41 <BlueMatt> I took your comment to be otherwise
1017 2014-08-14 06:19:45 <BlueMatt> misread, sorry
1018 2014-08-14 06:20:09 <gmaxwell> wumpus: thats fair enough, but the interface should be setup to be aligned with that kind of goal even if its not changed to it right away.
1019 2014-08-14 06:20:37 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ack
1020 2014-08-14 06:20:40 <sipa> it will need a change in api
1021 2014-08-14 06:20:45 <sipa> but that's fine
1022 2014-08-14 06:20:50 <BlueMatt> sure, ofc, I thought you suggested as well a context, per-thread
1023 2014-08-14 06:20:53 <BlueMatt> which is....ehhhh
1024 2014-08-14 06:21:09 <sipa> yes
1025 2014-08-14 06:21:10 <gmaxwell> also, if there is no dynamic memory allocation, I can finally run the damn thing inside klee and get 100% branch coverage tests machine generated.
1026 2014-08-14 06:22:21 <gmaxwell> right now sorting out the thousands of superfluous branches related to dynamic memory management is too much work to do manually.
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1028 2014-08-14 06:22:56 <wumpus> BlueMatt: it could in principle manage a pool of contexts internally, if it's just for scratch space
1029 2014-08-14 06:23:00 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so...are you suggesting a call to bitcoinscript_init per-thread and make users keep around state now?
1030 2014-08-14 06:23:32 <BlueMatt> wumpus: yes, one should do that, but some idiot will write in a language that blindly spins up threads and will end up with 1000 threads to check 1000 transactions
1031 2014-08-14 06:23:33 <wumpus> especially if it's just a static data structure
1032 2014-08-14 06:23:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: for all I care from an api perspective they could happily bitcoinscript_init(); bitcoinscript_verify(); every use.
1033 2014-08-14 06:24:10 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: huh? so allocate the script memory per-run? now I'm confused
1034 2014-08-14 06:24:20 <BlueMatt> or keep around a thread-local variable that depends on your threading system used???
1035 2014-08-14 06:24:27 <sipa> help no
1036 2014-08-14 06:24:31 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: then they _should_ fail, becuase when they later got a block with a bunch of high memory using transactions they _would_ fail, and thats exactly the kind of failure that should happen up front instead of intermittently as a consensus failure.
1037 2014-08-14 06:24:33 <wumpus> BlueMatt: possible, but hard to clean up when the thread goes away
1038 2014-08-14 06:25:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you just gave a perfect example of why not dynamically allocating memory is important.
1039 2014-08-14 06:25:22 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, I agree why we shouldnt dynamically allocate memory
1040 2014-08-14 06:25:27 <BlueMatt> my question is what your alternative is here
1041 2014-08-14 06:25:37 <wumpus> well it must be dynamically allocated at some point
1042 2014-08-14 06:25:41 <wumpus> just not for every check
1043 2014-08-14 06:25:52 <BlueMatt> if you're suggesting that users *must* keep their own thread-local scratch space managed themselves, I think thats a terrible api
1044 2014-08-14 06:25:54 <gmaxwell> There is just a context that you initialize... one per thread if you're doing parallel validation.
1045 2014-08-14 06:25:58 <wumpus> I hope you're not proposing like automotive C to put everything in the data segment statically :-)
1046 2014-08-14 06:26:27 <wumpus> BlueMatt: that sounds like the openssl api!
1047 2014-08-14 06:26:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's just a validator context. It's no different that a zillion other things do. (including codecs, for example)
1048 2014-08-14 06:26:57 <sipa> contexts are fine imho
1049 2014-08-14 06:27:13 <wumpus> yes, an explicit context is fine
1050 2014-08-14 06:27:27 <sipa> whether you use threadlocal storage or stacks or whatever at the application level doesn't matter
1051 2014-08-14 06:27:30 <gmaxwell> and if you have multiple threads, then, yes, you need multiple contexts. And if some genuis spins up 1000 threads, he'll have 1000x the memory usage right off the bat: which is correct because that was his peak memory usage in reality.
1052 2014-08-14 06:27:51 <gmaxwell> genius*
1053 2014-08-14 06:28:05 <wumpus> you could even make your function accept NULL for the context, in which case it allocates it at the beginning and throws it away afterwards, for people that like dynamic allocation on every call
1054 2014-08-14 06:28:46 <sipa> it will likely still be more efficient than now
1055 2014-08-14 06:29:05 <wumpus> well this is just about the API... initially the context will be a dummy object :-)
1056 2014-08-14 06:29:42 <wumpus> as we currently allocate everything on-the-fly no matter what
1057 2014-08-14 06:30:06 <sipa> i'm fine with not having contexts for now
1058 2014-08-14 06:30:12 <sipa> until we have a real use for them
1059 2014-08-14 06:30:39 <gmaxwell> as I said before, best discussed when there is actually a library. it's not like the api is set in stone before it even exists.
1060 2014-08-14 06:30:57 chax has joined
1061 2014-08-14 06:31:04 <wumpus> yeah
1062 2014-08-14 06:31:16 <sipa> yeah
1063 2014-08-14 06:31:35 wfbarks has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1064 2014-08-14 06:32:06 <gmaxwell> (though I suppose it's good to know what people think the (eventual) requirements are!)
1065 2014-08-14 06:32:39 <wumpus> well if you know for sure you're going to do something it makes sense to take it into account in the API already, if not it results in overdesign
1066 2014-08-14 06:35:42 <BlueMatt> now I'm confused...this whole discussion started because cfields wanted to have something that was stable before we merge the library...so then we went off and planned for 10 years down the road, and now we're saying we should merge before we decide?
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1068 2014-08-14 06:36:16 <wumpus> you cannot plan for 10 years down the road, period
1069 2014-08-14 06:36:35 <BlueMatt> I agree, hence why I wanted to move forward without any of this complication...
1070 2014-08-14 06:36:50 <gmaxwell> ah I had no idea you were that far along yet.
1071 2014-08-14 06:37:00 <wumpus> yes, just move forward
1072 2014-08-14 06:38:43 <wumpus> you've heard everyone's opinion now, the rest is up to you
1073 2014-08-14 06:39:49 Krellan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1074 2014-08-14 06:40:12 <sipa> well what matters is that any api that is intended to be public can remain stable for a whilr... though obviously not 10 years
1075 2014-08-14 06:40:45 <sipa> inreally like the "only expose serialized structures" for that
1076 2014-08-14 06:40:48 <sipa> *i really
1077 2014-08-14 06:41:07 <sipa> the only conplication seems how to deal with soft forking changes
1078 2014-08-14 06:42:46 <sipa> i personally wouldn't mind first making the core changes necessary for the separation, and only doing the actual library/buildsystem/api later
1079 2014-08-14 06:42:53 <sipa> but as you already have that working...
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1085 2014-08-14 06:45:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: huh? the pull request creates a functional and useful library already?
1086 2014-08-14 06:45:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the included .h file needs to move to an include/ directory before release
1087 2014-08-14 06:45:58 <BlueMatt> so it can change, but the .so works fine as it is now
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1089 2014-08-14 06:46:37 <gmaxwell> I see this, I didn't realize that. So I was in the mode of "why don't you go finish something before we debate the API". :P
1090 2014-08-14 06:47:02 <wumpus> going in circles :)
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1092 2014-08-14 06:47:26 <BlueMatt> wumpus: ok..what do you want to merge?
1093 2014-08-14 06:47:46 <BlueMatt> me? I like it as-is and would require breaking .so compat every time plus a version field in the include file
1094 2014-08-14 06:48:09 <BlueMatt> but the include file is separate anyway
1095 2014-08-14 06:48:34 <BlueMatt> so its whether we want stuff in-library or not
1096 2014-08-14 06:48:38 <BlueMatt> at least for release 1
1097 2014-08-14 06:48:57 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I haven't looked at the implementation in detail yet, but interface-wise I'm fine with it as it is now
1098 2014-08-14 06:53:42 <wumpus> BlueMatt: in any case, merging it would not equal 'an official release of the API'
1099 2014-08-14 06:54:33 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I was referring to release as in releasing next bitcoin core version
1100 2014-08-14 06:55:04 <BlueMatt> but I figure get the .so in a stable state for merge
1101 2014-08-14 06:55:11 <BlueMatt> and then add features/trim down api/etc
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1103 2014-08-14 06:56:03 <wumpus> but yes a version constant in the header as well as a call to query the API version would make sense, to avoid serious breakage when the wrong .h is used with the wrong .so
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1105 2014-08-14 06:58:15 <wumpus> remember that the library is also meant to be load dynamically, so you need a way to know the loaded object is compatible with the interface that you expect
1106 2014-08-14 06:58:47 <BlueMatt> libtool?
1107 2014-08-14 06:58:56 <BlueMatt> but, ok
1108 2014-08-14 06:59:10 <wumpus> ie, when you use python ctypes you load the .so but don't use the header
1109 2014-08-14 06:59:24 <BlueMatt> I'll add a feature/version check thing but not a context thing yet
1110 2014-08-14 06:59:28 <wumpus> well sure you can use the file name for signaling the version
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1113 2014-08-14 07:00:08 <wumpus> although it seems easy to break/misplace
1114 2014-08-14 07:00:19 <wumpus> if it is the only mechanism used
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1117 2014-08-14 07:01:03 <BlueMatt> sure, yea
1118 2014-08-14 07:01:11 <BlueMatt> esp when you have multiple versions
1119 2014-08-14 07:01:15 <BlueMatt> (os+dev or so)
1120 2014-08-14 07:01:58 <wumpus> well - the idea is that you can have multiple script interpreters that expose the same API version, but are implemented differently
1121 2014-08-14 07:02:30 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: next time you update your relay client, can you make it log the block hash along with the percent of txn saved? I'd do per miner stats on hitrates.
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1123 2014-08-14 07:05:46 <wumpus> anyhow - I'm fine with a method that just returns an integer which is The API Version, it would in some cases also be useful to be able to query for some description ("this is the script interpreter from bitcoin core 0.10.3") etc but that's just for logging/diagnostic purposes not to actually match against
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1233 2014-08-14 09:35:38 <Lloydy> Does anyone in here use Cloudflare on a really dynamic website? I'm wanting to use it for the SSL Protection, but when I turn it on my properly working website goes to hell in a hand basket :(
1234 2014-08-14 09:38:06 <sipa> offtopic
1235 2014-08-14 09:39:15 <Lloydy> sorry sipa I'm new here - can you suggest the proper channel?
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1238 2014-08-14 09:39:36 <cdecker> #cloudflare?
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1385 2014-08-14 12:59:02 <GAit> sipa: do you remember a discussion about how a bitcoin wallet should call mlock so that keys don't get in swap?
1386 2014-08-14 13:02:42 <GAit> it is my understanding that only root processes can do that and it wouldn't be wise to use a bitcoin wallet as root
1387 2014-08-14 13:04:42 <Luke-Jr> GAit: both of those are wrong
1388 2014-08-14 13:04:55 <Luke-Jr> 1) non-root processes can mlock *up to a limit*
1389 2014-08-14 13:05:09 <Luke-Jr> 2) if you can't trust your bitcoin wallet with root, you probably can't trust it with your bitcoins
1390 2014-08-14 13:05:18 <Luke-Jr> IMO
1391 2014-08-14 13:05:54 <Luke-Jr> otoh, I guess it could be similar to the hot/cold wallet divide, so *shrug*
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1394 2014-08-14 13:07:40 <GAit> 1) can user processes call mlockall? 2) debetable, i trust some apps but i wouldn't run them as root if possible as a rule of thumb. 3) does it not make more sense to use a tool like memlockd and configure apps ad hoc?
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1397 2014-08-14 13:12:37 <Luke-Jr> 1) yes, but it's likely to overflow the mlock limit; 3) no, best to only mlock the sensitive memory
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1399 2014-08-14 13:14:32 <GAit> Luke-Jr: using just some areas excludes likes of python and java or am i wrong once again? :)
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1401 2014-08-14 13:15:03 <Luke-Jr> GAit: I'm not sure.
1402 2014-08-14 13:17:54 <gmaxwell> GAit: normal processes can mlock fine, though only a limited amount.
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1404 2014-08-14 13:18:12 <jgarzik> what gmaxwell said
1405 2014-08-14 13:18:27 <jgarzik> all processes have a small mlock budget
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1408 2014-08-14 13:19:08 <GAit> i can't find much on mlocking from python. All i find talks about mlockall so not really fine grained
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1411 2014-08-14 13:20:31 <Luke-Jr> you might need to make a custom class or something
1412 2014-08-14 13:20:36 <Luke-Jr> even then, it might be hopeless :/
1413 2014-08-14 13:20:51 <wumpus> the most efficient use of the mlock budget would be to have a mlocked allocation pool, and if something requires mlocked memory, reserve from there
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1415 2014-08-14 13:21:52 <jgarzik> though, I have experimented with the idea of keeping data in extended SSE registers
1416 2014-08-14 13:21:54 <jgarzik> rather than RAM
1417 2014-08-14 13:21:57 <wumpus> (this is not the approach that bitcoin core has, it mlocks any pages that have sensitive material on them, which is allocated from the normal heap)
1418 2014-08-14 13:22:03 <GAit> if this was a small C r C++ library or app I can see how it would work but with higher languages like python and java i guess you'd have to use JNI/JNA or ctypes and do all the sensitive suff with mlock
1419 2014-08-14 13:22:05 <jgarzik> keep sensitive keys there etc.
1420 2014-08-14 13:22:19 <jgarzik> not foolproof (CPU state is task switched into RAM)
1421 2014-08-14 13:22:31 <sipa> doing mlock management in higher level languages sounds exceedingly hard
1422 2014-08-14 13:22:44 <sipa> as you need to hook into their allocators and garbage collection
1423 2014-08-14 13:22:45 <GAit> jgarzik: even with strong/forced affinity
1424 2014-08-14 13:22:57 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: does Linux swap out CPU state ever? :o
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1426 2014-08-14 13:23:22 <GAit> sipa: seems like a considerable amount of work yes
1427 2014-08-14 13:23:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not to mention, they probably never have "simple register" variables for handling the mlock'd data..
1428 2014-08-14 13:25:16 <jgarzik> Ah found it
1429 2014-08-14 13:25:20 <jgarzik> Here's the C code:
1430 2014-08-14 13:25:22 <jgarzik> https://gist.github.com/jgarzik/2e2c4373b88d90ee4859
1431 2014-08-14 13:25:51 <jgarzik> Always thought it would be useful to integrate that with a key-managing "security robot" project I was working on
1432 2014-08-14 13:25:59 <Luke-Jr> mlock would be nicer to work with if C had an attribute similar to const for it
1433 2014-08-14 13:26:02 <GAit> jgarzik: interesting
1434 2014-08-14 13:26:28 <jgarzik> GAit, Have you seen moxiebox? https://github.com/jgarzik/moxiebox
1435 2014-08-14 13:26:31 <Luke-Jr> (so trying to put mlock'd data in non-flagged places would error)
1436 2014-08-14 13:26:48 <GAit> Luke-Jr: with c++ you could more easily abtract that away i guess
1437 2014-08-14 13:26:59 <Luke-Jr> maybe
1438 2014-08-14 13:27:07 <jgarzik> Agree w/ sipa on "doing mlock management in higher level languages sounds exceedingly hard"
1439 2014-08-14 13:27:15 <jgarzik> That's why the above gist has a read/write interface
1440 2014-08-14 13:27:19 <jgarzik> treat it as "tiny storage"
1441 2014-08-14 13:27:44 <jgarzik> That doesn't solve the problem of temporaries storing sensitive data of course.
1442 2014-08-14 13:29:04 <GAit> jgarzik, no i didn't also very interesting
1443 2014-08-14 13:29:19 <GAit> perhaps woth mlocking only when running as root as i'm doing now and suggest people to use memlockd externall for user processes if they want it
1444 2014-08-14 13:29:35 <GAit> s/woth/worth
1445 2014-08-14 13:29:41 <jgarzik> mlock then run under mlock'd hypervisor...
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1448 2014-08-14 13:32:53 <GAit> the other thing is resetting core limits to zero so that in case of crashes you don't leave a dump of memory on disk, is that also not duable from a higher level app unless root?
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1450 2014-08-14 13:34:11 <GAit> i tried and i can only get it to work from root, i'm sure there's something i'm missing
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1453 2014-08-14 13:36:48 <jgarzik> GAit, a process is generally allowed to lower its own limits, regardless of $limit
1454 2014-08-14 13:36:59 <jgarzik> (and that of its children)
1455 2014-08-14 13:37:25 <jgarzik> GAit, even in a sandbox, though, you don't want to run as root. too much kernel code confers extra abilities if you are superuser.
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1458 2014-08-14 13:39:29 <wumpus> the only way that I see how to use mlock effectively in a higher-level language would be to have *all* the key handling happen in a low-level language which manages a mlocked mempool and call into that :P
1459 2014-08-14 13:40:35 <GAit> jgarzik: oh i agree, i don't want to run as root, i've been saying since the top of the conversation, i'm sorry, i can set the limit without root, i got confused with mlockall while testing
1460 2014-08-14 13:40:46 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I think you can raise your soft limit up to the hard one
1461 2014-08-14 13:41:19 <GAit> wumpus: yes, i agree
1462 2014-08-14 13:41:39 <wumpus> kind of like a hardware security module... but not in hardware...
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1465 2014-08-14 13:43:05 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, yes, but raising limits is much more complicated than lowering limits, so I was only speaking to lowering limits.
1466 2014-08-14 13:43:24 <GAit> wumpus: the problem is if you get that data from user input, then you need the gui tool kit to play nice
1467 2014-08-14 13:43:56 <wumpus> GAit: oh sure, but even in low level languages you have that problem
1468 2014-08-14 13:44:17 <jgarzik> wumpus, indeed (RE security module)
1469 2014-08-14 13:44:17 <GAit> the window is smaller though ;)
1470 2014-08-14 13:44:18 <wumpus> GAit: we can't really lock the X11 and Qt memory that is used for passphase entry either
1471 2014-08-14 13:46:04 <jgarzik> wumpus, I do wonder if Qt ever put any effort towards mlock'ing any of their password entry dialogs
1472 2014-08-14 13:47:07 <wumpus> *grepping for mlock in the qt source*
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1474 2014-08-14 13:47:48 <wumpus> nope - only pthread_mlock_t, but that's something else
1475 2014-08-14 13:48:09 <GAit> :(
1476 2014-08-14 13:48:37 <GAit> i'm glad bitcoin is pushing the security game a few steps up
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1481 2014-08-14 13:50:01 <helo> the difference is important if someone that has access to a user's memory space will be unable to steal the passphrase in some other way
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1485 2014-08-14 13:51:03 <wumpus> helo: well the problem is that most people use unencrypted swap -- and once something is written to disk you have no idea how long it will linger around there
1486 2014-08-14 13:51:35 <GAit> and even encrypted swap, if the key is in memory someone can extract it?
1487 2014-08-14 13:51:49 <GAit> and find some key in swap from earlier days
1488 2014-08-14 13:52:13 <wumpus> well the idea is that the key goes away every time that the PC is switched off
1489 2014-08-14 13:53:08 <wumpus> anyhow, when someone finds your harddisk in the dump, they won't have an active image of your memory... sure, it provides no protection against an online attack
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1491 2014-08-14 13:53:32 <gmaxwell> already malware exists that scans raw disks for keys.
1492 2014-08-14 13:54:17 <wumpus> right
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1497 2014-08-14 13:55:13 <helo> so regarding "software security module" like a transaction signing kernel module (with an interface like trezor) that permitted secure passphrase entry by a specified user different from the user running the wallet (and presumably other desktop apps)? set signing user's shell to module interface, and send transactions to it to sign?
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1499 2014-08-14 13:55:25 <gmaxwell> this bitcoin seeder thing sure does connect a whole lot.
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1501 2014-08-14 13:56:11 <wumpus> yes it does
1502 2014-08-14 13:56:52 <wumpus> we already complained about it on the mailing list once, but seemingly that didn't help
1503 2014-08-14 13:56:56 <gmaxwell> helo: did you see Hal's tresor (not trezor) post?
1504 2014-08-14 13:57:06 <helo> nope, looking
1505 2014-08-14 13:57:13 <gmaxwell> on bct
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1509 2014-08-14 14:01:51 <wumpus> helo: something like a secure passphrase entry that takes over the keyboard at a low level, so that it's as hard as possible to listen in on it; and possibly a secure display... although that'd be much harder to implement
1510 2014-08-14 14:02:47 <helo> console not significantly better than xorg?
1511 2014-08-14 14:02:58 <gmaxwell> It would probably be a fun little project to make an seperate gui program that gets worked and recieves (stdin) one or more encrypted masterkey, and a transaction to sign, and it prompts the user for the wallet passphrase, signs, and returns it. It would be 99% of the application changes to support something like hal's tresor hack.
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1514 2014-08-14 14:03:41 <gmaxwell> helo: X has very poor task isolation, there is a special X call you can do to prevent keyboard sniffing but few things use it because if you hang while holding it the user is screwed (plus other issues)
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1518 2014-08-14 14:05:15 <helo> with a console interface, i'm not sure what you could do for users of platforms without VTs
1519 2014-08-14 14:05:37 <wumpus> helo: well if it is just about input I believe it's not that difficult to 'take over' the event interface
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1521 2014-08-14 14:06:44 <wumpus> (with root or kernel privileged access, of course)
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1524 2014-08-14 14:08:03 <wumpus> but yes output is much harder to handle, especially as it's usually X that drives the screen, not the kernel, so if you cannot switch to a VT the kernel has no way to tell the user something
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1531 2014-08-14 14:14:10 <wumpus> I've also heard that there are plans to deprecate/remove the in-kernel console
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1534 2014-08-14 14:17:10 <wumpus> btw, talking about the kernel, does anyone know of a way to make sure that a specific file is evicted from the kernel caches? (for benchmarks...)
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1538 2014-08-14 14:19:56 <wumpus> hm I see there's only a command to drop all caches, but that sounds dangerous
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1552 2014-08-14 14:38:18 <jgarzik> wumpus, not dangerous, just causes stuff to be paged in
1553 2014-08-14 14:38:40 <wumpus> ok that's good
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1555 2014-08-14 14:38:47 <jgarzik> wumpus, docs @ https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysctl/vm.txt
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1558 2014-08-14 14:41:59 <gmaxwell> yea, I've used that for benchmarking bitcoind before. (on a spinning disk the uncached initial validation is surprisingly slow!)
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1560 2014-08-14 14:44:58 <hearn> hello
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1564 2014-08-14 14:49:56 <wumpus> hello
1565 2014-08-14 14:50:27 <jgarzik> ni hao bienvenue welcome
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1568 2014-08-14 14:54:08 <dhill> regarding the 'Reject transactions with excessive numbers of sigops', the comment states it is considered 'invalid rather than merely non-standard'.. why use REJECT_NONSTANDARD instead of REJECT_INVALID then?
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1574 2014-08-14 14:56:35 <wumpus> seemingly the comment was not updated for the review comments, then, we got it to change it to REJECT_NONSTANDARD
1575 2014-08-14 14:57:33 <wumpus> as INVALID is strictly for block validation rules, this is just a anti-dos measure
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1765 2014-08-14 17:51:47 <gmaxwell> jcorgan: the addr index patch is missing transactions, though I haven't yet figured out what pattern there is to the absenses.
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1806 2014-08-14 18:33:08 <rdponticelli> I have some code implementing autoprune. Should I push it updating #4481 or would it be better to make a new PR?
1807 2014-08-14 18:37:52 <sipa> #4481 has been mostly reviewed already i think; i would suggest creating a new PR, but starting with putting the same commits in it
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1816 2014-08-14 18:42:39 <michagogo> cfields: good news
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1818 2014-08-14 18:42:48 <cfields> oh?
1819 2014-08-14 18:42:52 <michagogo> I didn't realize someone else was comine before my siblings
1820 2014-08-14 18:42:55 <michagogo> coming*
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1823 2014-08-14 18:43:15 <cfields> heh, quicker ram?
1824 2014-08-14 18:44:19 <michagogo> https://i.imgur.com/IbtV296.jpg
1825 2014-08-14 18:44:20 <michagogo> Yep
1826 2014-08-14 18:44:49 <cfields> nice :)
1827 2014-08-14 18:44:57 <Diablo-D3> heh
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1829 2014-08-14 18:45:05 <michagogo> Now as soon as I find someone who can lend me anti-ESD gear...
1830 2014-08-14 18:45:53 <cfields> michagogo: haha, i did tech work for ages, installed thousands of components.. never shocked anything.
1831 2014-08-14 18:46:00 <cfields> just touch your case first and you're good
1832 2014-08-14 18:46:25 <michagogo> cfields: ...that you know of
1833 2014-08-14 18:47:17 <michagogo> Stuff I read suggests that smaller potential ESDs are easily generated, too small to be felt at all but significant enough to damage hardware
1834 2014-08-14 18:47:25 <cfields> michagogo: if you're really paranoid, just get some gator clamps and whatever wire you have laying around
1835 2014-08-14 18:47:27 <michagogo> Often in ways that aren't immediately evident
1836 2014-08-14 18:47:43 <michagogo> I don't think I have a megaohm resistor
1837 2014-08-14 18:47:49 <cfields> ...
1838 2014-08-14 18:48:16 <michagogo> Grounding yourself without a resistor while working on computers is supposed to be a shock hazard
1839 2014-08-14 18:48:39 <michagogo> (I've never really done anything like this before...)
1840 2014-08-14 18:49:01 <cfields> and you're arguing with someone who's done it for most of his life :)
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1844 2014-08-14 18:49:52 <cfields> touch your case and you'll be fine. if something breaks, i'll reimburse personally. can't beat that.
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1846 2014-08-14 18:50:50 <michagogo> cfields: what if it seems to be fine but it breaks in a few months? :-/
1847 2014-08-14 18:52:48 <cfields> michagogo: heh, do as you like.
1848 2014-08-14 18:52:57 <michagogo> I'd rather be safe than sorry.
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1861 2014-08-14 19:01:52 <michagogo> (and the service manual for my laptop specifically warns about it)
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1865 2014-08-14 19:05:26 <michagogo> "... in many cases, ESD contains enough power to alter device parameters or melt silicon junctions. A discharge of static electricity from a finger or other conductor can destroy static-sensitive devices or microcircuitry. Even if the spark is neither felt nor heard, damage may have occurred. An electronic device exposed to ESD may not be affected at all and
1866 2014-08-14 19:05:26 <michagogo> can work perfectly throughout a normal cycle. Or the device may function normally for a while, then degrade in the internal layers, reducing its life expectancy"
1867 2014-08-14 19:05:46 <Diablo-D3> well
1868 2014-08-14 19:06:00 <Diablo-D3> why dont you already own a brickwall surge protector?
1869 2014-08-14 19:06:32 <michagogo> a what?
1870 2014-08-14 19:06:37 <sipa> what does the esound daemon have to do with this?
1871 2014-08-14 19:06:40 <michagogo> Ah, a brand name
1872 2014-08-14 19:06:53 <michagogo> sipa: electrostatic discharge
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1875 2014-08-14 19:07:57 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: its the only brand of series mode surge protectors on the market
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1877 2014-08-14 19:08:09 <michagogo> series mode?
1878 2014-08-14 19:08:55 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: dumbed down answer: they don't use metal oxide varistors, which don't work at all and 99.9% of "surge protectors" use them
1879 2014-08-14 19:08:58 <cfields> from the conversation above, i think i'd love to be the surge protector salesman when michagogo walks in the door :p
1880 2014-08-14 19:09:19 CheckDavid has joined
1881 2014-08-14 19:09:20 <Diablo-D3> (ie, common surge protectors don't protect from surges. never have, never will. however, they might burn your house down.)
1882 2014-08-14 19:09:35 <michagogo> cfields: Eh? I really don't know much about this whole thing
1883 2014-08-14 19:09:51 <michagogo> I just saw the big scary warning in the service manual
1884 2014-08-14 19:09:52 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: I have two of them, Ive never had surge issues, even when my neighbors have.
1885 2014-08-14 19:10:04 <michagogo> and then googled to find out more
1886 2014-08-14 19:10:07 <kdomanski> Diablo-D3: varistor isn't there to protect you from a multi-kV surge, it's far too slow
1887 2014-08-14 19:10:17 <Diablo-D3> kdomanski: its not there to do jack shit.
1888 2014-08-14 19:10:20 <cfields> michagogo: right, but you seem to buy in heavily. I bet i could sell you a $500 surge protector :)
1889 2014-08-14 19:10:30 <michagogo> What do you mean?
1890 2014-08-14 19:10:32 <sipa> maybe a bit offtopic...
1891 2014-08-14 19:10:33 <Diablo-D3> $500? no, not even close cfields
1892 2014-08-14 19:10:38 <cfields> michagogo: heh nothing, just making a joke
1893 2014-08-14 19:10:53 <michagogo> Looks like the brickwall starts at $200
1894 2014-08-14 19:10:55 <kdomanski> Diablo-D3: it's purpose is to short-circuit the power supply when someone connects 12V to a 5V device, for example
1895 2014-08-14 19:11:04 <michagogo> cfields: what do you mean "buy in"?
1896 2014-08-14 19:11:40 * sipa made #bitcoin-blah
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1898 2014-08-14 19:12:03 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: yes, get the 2 plug computer one, and get a tripplite cabinet power strip
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1903 2014-08-14 19:12:14 <sipa> having an explicit offtopic channel makes it a bit nicer to havr a stricter must-be-on-topic policy
1904 2014-08-14 19:12:17 <michagogo> Diablo-D3: Do they make them for 220V?
1905 2014-08-14 19:12:18 <Diablo-D3> kdomanski: yes, but the problem is, they sell these as surge protectors
1906 2014-08-14 19:12:26 <cfields> michagogo: it's really not worth it, nevermind
1907 2014-08-14 19:12:49 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: I dont know, email them and ask
1908 2014-08-14 19:12:53 <michagogo> sipa: yeah, good idea I guess
1909 2014-08-14 19:12:59 <kdomanski> Diablo-D3: that's quite derp indeed
1910 2014-08-14 19:13:20 <Diablo-D3> kdomanski: in fact, imo, you're better off with a plain power strip over a surge protector one
1911 2014-08-14 19:13:29 Grouver has joined
1912 2014-08-14 19:13:44 <Diablo-D3> sipa: and btw, we DO have #bitcoin
1913 2014-08-14 19:13:48 <Diablo-D3> which SHOULD be the offtopic channel
1914 2014-08-14 19:14:00 Plinker__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1916 2014-08-14 19:14:16 <sipa> i disagree, #bitcoin is for general bitcoin related things
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1918 2014-08-14 19:14:36 <sipa> on blah, anything goes
1919 2014-08-14 19:14:37 <iwilcox> We also have #bitcoin-offtopic :)
1920 2014-08-14 19:14:40 <sipa> ah!
1921 2014-08-14 19:14:46 <sipa> i did not know
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1923 2014-08-14 19:14:50 <Diablo-D3> yeah we've had that for awhile
1924 2014-08-14 19:14:52 <Diablo-D3> no one is ever in it
1925 2014-08-14 19:15:19 <iwilcox> Diablo-D3: ...because stuff only ever belongs there when it's pushed there, really.
1926 2014-08-14 19:15:38 <sipa> haskell has a very active haskell-blah channel
1927 2014-08-14 19:16:15 <Diablo-D3> freenode used to have a good #offtopic
1928 2014-08-14 19:16:24 <Diablo-D3> then they chased it off the network, and replaced it with ##defocus
1929 2014-08-14 19:16:31 <Diablo-D3> which is just basically freenode's /b/
1930 2014-08-14 19:16:31 <kdomanski> Diablo-D3: huh, I use avalanche diodes against ESD
1931 2014-08-14 19:16:50 <michagogo> Diablo-D3: one octothorpe, no?
1932 2014-08-14 19:16:53 <Diablo-D3> kdomanski: michagogo had a surge come in over the power
1933 2014-08-14 19:16:59 <michagogo> Diablo-D3: huh?
1934 2014-08-14 19:17:06 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: didnt you?
1935 2014-08-14 19:17:17 <michagogo> No, what makes you think that?
1936 2014-08-14 19:17:25 <Diablo-D3> well, what did it come in over?
1937 2014-08-14 19:17:35 <Diablo-D3> because you'll need to isolate that instead
1938 2014-08-14 19:17:37 <michagogo> Huh? I don't know what you're talking about.
1939 2014-08-14 19:18:29 <Diablo-D3> okay, how did you fry all your equipment then
1940 2014-08-14 19:18:38 <michagogo> Uh, I didn't? o_O
1941 2014-08-14 19:18:59 <Diablo-D3> ?
1942 2014-08-14 19:19:03 <Diablo-D3> then who did?
1943 2014-08-14 19:19:58 <michagogo> nobody here afaik
1944 2014-08-14 19:20:10 <michagogo> What makes you think that?
1945 2014-08-14 19:20:13 <sipa> guys, please
1946 2014-08-14 19:21:15 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: well wtf, someone just fried all their gear with a surge
1947 2014-08-14 19:21:27 <Diablo-D3> on one of the IRC channels Im in
1948 2014-08-14 19:21:32 <michagogo> Not in this discussion in this channel, then
1949 2014-08-14 19:21:37 <michagogo> And sipa wants us to stop
1950 2014-08-14 19:21:37 <Diablo-D3> meh.
1951 2014-08-14 19:21:43 <Diablo-D3> All of you people look alike to me.
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1982 2014-08-14 19:51:26 <cfields> wumpus: still around?
1983 2014-08-14 19:51:36 <wumpus> yes
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1985 2014-08-14 19:51:58 <cfields> wumpus: mind trying a quick check for boost?
1986 2014-08-14 19:52:22 <cfields> I've spent this whole time trying to code up something robust, but it's just not going to happen. the current m4s are just too broken
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1988 2014-08-14 19:52:31 <cfields> better to just add what works, imo
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1990 2014-08-14 19:53:22 <cfields> wumpus: if you can give it a go on your arm machine: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=YxCA4Mdq
1991 2014-08-14 19:53:38 <wumpus> right, doesn't have to be perfect, just better than what we have now :)
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1996 2014-08-14 19:55:31 <wumpus> checking
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1998 2014-08-14 20:01:54 <wumpus> fails on the boost::system library configure: error: Could not find a version of the boost_system library!
1999 2014-08-14 20:02:47 <cfields> ergh, ok. thanks. i'll setup a quick vm
2000 2014-08-14 20:03:54 <wumpus> can't find anything useful in the config.log
2001 2014-08-14 20:03:56 <cfields> ah wait
2002 2014-08-14 20:04:02 <cfields> one more try first
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2004 2014-08-14 20:04:48 <cfields> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=C328VueA
2005 2014-08-14 20:05:48 * cfields kicks boost and their lack of compliance with _any_ buildsystem
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2033 2014-08-14 20:36:04 <erasmospunk> Can somebody help me with deriving the key 44'/0'/0'/0/0 from the private key xprv9s21ZrQH143K2wLztmsRygLnFknPXZrHKdvoxMyKbtkLm5z8zwB1Bv9tVR5ndQfGm2CSbgaRvcUFCXfT12UDsqmx6zAo76zP9JFeqTyyX6d
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2037 2014-08-14 20:37:21 <erasmospunk> I am confused, bitcoinj gives me 1Fp7CA7ZVqZNFVNQ9TpeqWUas7K28K9zig and doing it manually with pybitcointools gives me 1JqbHNiqc5GYtZt4EhA1KqsjqSj1BhCp4y
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2051 2014-08-14 20:52:13 <erasmospunk> ok, found it. Was using pubtoaddr() with a WIF pubkey :/
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2068 2014-08-14 21:13:14 <cfields> wumpus: did that last one work?
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2109 2014-08-14 21:50:47 <rdbell> Can anyone point me to info on how bitcoind calculates tx fees?
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2112 2014-08-14 21:53:55 <dsnrk> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#transaction-fees-and-change
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2128 2014-08-14 22:10:03 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: i meant how much mining actually uses miner.cpp? are you basically just updating example code?
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2175 2014-08-14 23:13:54 <lifeofcray2> yo
2176 2014-08-14 23:14:02 <lifeofcray2> could someone link me to a good guide
2177 2014-08-14 23:14:10 <lifeofcray2> to build bitcoin with gui on windows?
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2179 2014-08-14 23:14:35 <dsnrk> I suggest you use the supplied binaries unless you are developing for bitcoin.
2180 2014-08-14 23:14:47 <lifeofcray2> anyone?
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2184 2014-08-14 23:15:34 <LifeofCray> i mean, the ones i've read so far seems to be very lacking to say the least
2185 2014-08-14 23:15:43 <dsnrk> why do you want to?
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2187 2014-08-14 23:17:36 <LifeofCray> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149479.0 this is the third one i've tried.
2188 2014-08-14 23:17:47 <SomeoneWeird> you're not answering his question
2189 2014-08-14 23:17:47 <dsnrk> am I talking to a wall?
2190 2014-08-14 23:18:03 <LifeofCray> but mingw doesnt recognice the gcc command
2191 2014-08-14 23:18:21 <LifeofCray> i want to because i want to
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2193 2014-08-14 23:18:45 <dsnrk> making an altcoin?
2194 2014-08-14 23:18:56 <LifeofCray> no
2195 2014-08-14 23:19:00 <LifeofCray> are you dense or something?
2196 2014-08-14 23:19:08 <dsnrk> I could ask the same of you.
2197 2014-08-14 23:19:10 <LifeofCray> i want to compile bitcoin on windows
2198 2014-08-14 23:19:17 <LifeofCray> it's not that hard to understand
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2200 2014-08-14 23:19:18 <SomeoneWeird> LifeofCray: oi, be nice
2201 2014-08-14 23:19:34 <LifeofCray> i know his type
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2203 2014-08-14 23:19:44 <LifeofCray> doesn't know the answer so he just bugs you
2204 2014-08-14 23:19:53 * dsnrk rolls eyes
2205 2014-08-14 23:20:05 <sipa> LifeofCray: building on windows is known to be troublesome, because most developers don't use it, and even official binaries are built on linux
2206 2014-08-14 23:20:19 <LifeofCray> sipa really?
2207 2014-08-14 23:20:29 <sipa> ye
2208 2014-08-14 23:21:04 <sipa> there is work in progress to integrate an automatic dependency fetching/building system, which should simplify things significantly
2209 2014-08-14 23:21:12 <gmaxwell> LifeofCray: if you want to compile it on windows the best way is perhaps to do it the way the official determinstic binaries are done and cross compile it in a gitian VM.
2210 2014-08-14 23:21:25 <sipa> but you still need a full mingw environment there, and there may be other hiccups
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2212 2014-08-14 23:21:52 <sipa> there are a few people who do regularly develop and build on windows though, but i believe their binaries are not usable by others
2213 2014-08-14 23:22:46 <dsnrk> I thought I'd seen you before. you were here asking about making a web wallet service a while back, your model was to run it until it got hacked- and then it doesn't matter because it's not your money lost.
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2215 2014-08-14 23:23:43 <LifeofCray> dsnrk that was normal business talk
2216 2014-08-14 23:23:53 <LifeofCray> you asked how big companies do risk assesments
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2218 2014-08-14 23:24:17 <LifeofCray> way to scourge logs mate
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2220 2014-08-14 23:24:44 <dsnrk> <Luke-Jr> and when you lose thousands of bitcoins?
2221 2014-08-14 23:24:45 <dsnrk> <lifeofcray> iâll go bankrupt
2222 2014-08-14 23:24:55 <LifeofCray> i was getting annoyed with you
2223 2014-08-14 23:24:59 <LifeofCray> just like i am now
2224 2014-08-14 23:25:02 <sipa> all of that would be off topic here anyway
2225 2014-08-14 23:25:02 <LifeofCray> so ignored
2226 2014-08-14 23:25:05 <LifeofCray> kthxbai
2227 2014-08-14 23:25:30 <LifeofCray> yeah, anywho
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2229 2014-08-14 23:25:58 <jcorgan> LifeofCray: you are wearing out your welcome here
2230 2014-08-14 23:26:33 <LifeofCray> all i want is some guidance with compiling a bitcoin client for windows
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2232 2014-08-14 23:26:43 <LifeofCray> that's all jcorgan
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