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25 2014-08-15 00:24:00 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: yes, all mining code in Bitcoin Core is example code. sadly, many pools run it as-is
26 2014-08-15 00:25:36 <Luke-Jr> anyone know why BC Foundation has a committee telling people it's a best practice to REFUSE giving refunds of bitcoin purchases? :/
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36 2014-08-15 00:33:19 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: from address confusion?
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38 2014-08-15 00:35:07 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ?
39 2014-08-15 00:35:27 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ie they're confused about from address not existing and didnt think it through?
40 2014-08-15 00:35:35 <Luke-Jr> it's not hard to ask for a refund address
41 2014-08-15 00:35:41 <Luke-Jr> and payment protocol has it builtin
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43 2014-08-15 00:36:11 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: ah, so in your view CPFP will affect a significant fraction
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46 2014-08-15 00:37:06 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: yes. merging it also means it no longer needs to be maintained out of master, which creates merge conflicts when master incorporates other changes
47 2014-08-15 00:37:30 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: cuz if it were just example code ... it would be getting more complex and not getting tested much out there
48 2014-08-15 00:39:36 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: yes, that's why i rebased for you this week :)
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50 2014-08-15 00:40:43 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: thanks
51 2014-08-15 00:41:16 <Luke-Jr> lately I wait to rebase until someone expresses a readiness to merge XD
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322 2014-08-15 06:21:05 <wumpus> cfields: sorry for the slowness - that last one works great!
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476 2014-08-15 10:01:08 <Luke-Jr> aww, no way to build bitcoin-tx without bitcoin-cli? :p
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481 2014-08-15 10:03:15 <wumpus> no :)
482 2014-08-15 10:04:08 <Luke-Jr> â¹
483 2014-08-15 10:04:29 <Luke-Jr> guess I have to wait for the new PR before I can figure out how to write the packages for them
484 2014-08-15 10:04:30 <wumpus> and --with-utils will get you future bitcoin utilities as well, if for example one is added for deterministic key generation
485 2014-08-15 10:04:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sounds like the enemy of modularity :p
486 2014-08-15 10:05:11 <Luke-Jr> I suppose I can 'make src/bitcoin-tx' and do the install step by hand
487 2014-08-15 10:05:23 <wumpus> it's different executables -- how much more modular can you get?
488 2014-08-15 10:05:30 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: different git repositories
489 2014-08-15 10:05:37 <Luke-Jr> as it should be <.<
490 2014-08-15 10:05:46 <wumpus> well, people differ in opinion strongly about that
491 2014-08-15 10:06:34 <wumpus> I'd also prefer that though
492 2014-08-15 10:06:44 <gmaxwell> we're a long way from bitcoin-tx being well seperated yet (go look at the size of the binary)
493 2014-08-15 10:07:17 bitnumus has joined
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495 2014-08-15 10:07:39 <wumpus> then one parent repository that pulls everything and builds everything, for people that just want everything and want it to work... it can be frustrating to have to check out zillions of repos just to get something to work
496 2014-08-15 10:07:45 <bitnumus> Hi all, i've had a few freezes whilst trying to sync on two different machines, just wondering if i can report what it may be ?
497 2014-08-15 10:07:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: perhaps, but having it closely linked to configure options doesn't help the situation
498 2014-08-15 10:07:54 <bitnumus> last log is (2014-08-15 09:50:53 ResendWalletTransactions())
499 2014-08-15 10:08:10 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, that's ideal for our current situation (not having shared libraries) IMO
500 2014-08-15 10:08:44 <Luke-Jr> btw, someone submitted a base58 encode in C for BFGMiner - so maybe I should take that and libblkmaker's base58 decoder and make a libbase58
501 2014-08-15 10:08:55 <wumpus> well the shared library is nice for the script interpreter, something that we really want to export to other projects
502 2014-08-15 10:09:03 one_zero has quit ()
503 2014-08-15 10:09:24 <wumpus> and for a future library that wraps more of the consensus code
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506 2014-08-15 10:10:39 <wumpus> bitnumus: does it still reply to RPC commands?
507 2014-08-15 10:11:13 <bitnumus> sorry just restarted :S
508 2014-08-15 10:11:23 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: how are you defining 'freezes'?
509 2014-08-15 10:11:36 <bitnumus> just stopped syncing
510 2014-08-15 10:11:44 <wumpus> that's normal
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512 2014-08-15 10:12:04 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: it would have continued after the next block on the network.
513 2014-08-15 10:12:12 <bitnumus> http://pastebin.com/viKcGq1C
514 2014-08-15 10:12:24 <bitnumus> huh?
515 2014-08-15 10:12:37 <bitnumus> it was 8days behind, catching up from 3 weeks
516 2014-08-15 10:12:48 <bitnumus> stopped for like 10-15minutes
517 2014-08-15 10:13:05 <wumpus> that log looks perfectly normal
518 2014-08-15 10:13:06 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: Bitcoin in general is still very much a work-in-progress, and syncing is especially delicate. It's normal that it will stop and then start again after a while.
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523 2014-08-15 10:13:34 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: if the peer you're pulling from goes unresponsive or disconnects it'll idle until the next block on the network.
524 2014-08-15 10:13:38 <bitnumus> yes i know it looks normal which is why i thought it was odd
525 2014-08-15 10:13:40 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: fixing that is on the agenda, but needs work and testing
526 2014-08-15 10:13:56 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, i see, thats odd
527 2014-08-15 10:14:02 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
528 2014-08-15 10:14:21 <bitnumus> maybe write this fact to debug.log ?
529 2014-08-15 10:14:33 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: it's just an artifact of how it works. It just doesn't know that there are more blocks waiting if the peer providing them goes away.
530 2014-08-15 10:14:50 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: what would it write? for all the sync process knows its done.
531 2014-08-15 10:14:58 <jgarzik> wumpus, ACK --with-utils
532 2014-08-15 10:15:03 <bitnumus> hmm, so i was only connected to a single peer, how likely is that ?
533 2014-08-15 10:15:13 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: it only uses a single peer, ever
534 2014-08-15 10:15:15 <jgarzik> wumpus, I won't have time until next week, so feel free to supercede mine, if you want to PR before then.
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540 2014-08-15 10:16:16 <bitnumus> This seems like quite a large reason for long sync times if client needs to wait for a block everytime the single peer its connected to disappears ?
541 2014-08-15 10:16:45 <wumpus> jgarzik: no problem, I'll do it then
542 2014-08-15 10:16:53 <wumpus> bitnumus: it is
543 2014-08-15 10:17:33 <wumpus> ideally you would just let a node running and don't babysit or wait for it too much
544 2014-08-15 10:17:57 plaprade has joined
545 2014-08-15 10:18:25 <wumpus> as that can be frustrating :)
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547 2014-08-15 10:18:36 <bitnumus> call me old fashioned but i still use core client primarily for my coins :)
548 2014-08-15 10:18:54 <gmaxwell> bitnumus: sure but this doesn't have anything to do with the initial sync process.
549 2014-08-15 10:18:57 <bitnumus> its worked for years, don't see a reason to change generally it doesn't take this long to catch up a few weeks
550 2014-08-15 10:19:19 <gmaxwell> ah, usually doesn't get stalled when catching up only a few weeks.
551 2014-08-15 10:19:26 <bitnumus> gmaxwell, its not initial though a largish amount, i just moved house and only fired machine back up today
552 2014-08-15 10:19:36 <gmaxwell> in any case, this will hopefully be fixed in 0.10.
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554 2014-08-15 10:19:36 <bitnumus> "3weeks"
555 2014-08-15 10:19:53 <bitnumus> kk, keep up the good work as always :)
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557 2014-08-15 10:20:07 <gmaxwell> it just takes a lot of testing to completely replace the synchronization process. That work has basically been going on for a year.
558 2014-08-15 10:20:50 <wumpus> maybe the client should have a 'tilt' switch that tries to poll for the next block manually :p
559 2014-08-15 10:20:51 <bitnumus> i can imagine
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562 2014-08-15 10:23:08 <wumpus> or at least, switch sync nodes
563 2014-08-15 10:24:01 <gmaxwell> wumpus: mooted by headers first
564 2014-08-15 10:24:06 <wumpus> 'reset networking'
565 2014-08-15 10:24:31 <jgarzik> RPC "kicksync"
566 2014-08-15 10:24:33 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well, I'm sure even then things can get stuck or in unexpected situations
567 2014-08-15 10:24:38 <wumpus> jgarzik: :D
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569 2014-08-15 10:25:01 <Luke-Jr> just make it an undocumented feature of clicking the sync icon in the bottom of the iwndow
570 2014-08-15 10:25:16 <Luke-Jr> then we'll have people advising clicking it 5 years after we remove the code for it
571 2014-08-15 10:25:19 <gmaxwell> wumpus: hm, no by design there shouldn't be any such case.
572 2014-08-15 10:25:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it may or may not actually do something, like the close button in a elevator :)
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574 2014-08-15 10:25:54 * Luke-Jr wonders when people stopped suggesting -rescan (if ever)
575 2014-08-15 10:26:08 <gmaxwell> well okay, that was too expansive... it might get stuck with _all_ bad peers.
576 2014-08-15 10:26:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: they still constantly suggest it.
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578 2014-08-15 10:26:43 <Luke-Jr> >_<
579 2014-08-15 10:26:51 <gmaxwell> we should probably rename it in the next version, hide it, and replace it with a "if you really need this, please file a bug"
580 2014-08-15 10:27:10 <gmaxwell> because any straggling reasons to rescan are going to turn into serious bugs when people have enabled pruning.
581 2014-08-15 10:27:33 <wumpus> like importing private keys...
582 2014-08-15 10:27:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: you don't need -rescan when you import a private key though.
583 2014-08-15 10:28:11 <gmaxwell> (I mean you don't need the startup commandline switch)
584 2014-08-15 10:28:21 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well it does the same internaly, or do you just suggest removing the switch?
585 2014-08-15 10:28:23 <wumpus> oh, right
586 2014-08-15 10:28:26 <gmaxwell> Just the switch.
587 2014-08-15 10:29:33 <gmaxwell> There are some cases where rescans are used, sure. But the startup one _I think_ is just wasting people's time when they erroniously think it will solve some problem. And if there really are cases where it does something helpful we need to find out about them, so we can either fix them (if fixable) or add them to the things you can't do with pruning enabled.
588 2014-08-15 10:29:40 <Luke-Jr> btw, considering everyone who doesn't know how to use it correctly anyway is already rebasing/patching in the "address index", is there any (other) harm is just merging it? :/
589 2014-08-15 10:29:48 <wumpus> if -rescan goes away there's always -zapwallettxes
590 2014-08-15 10:29:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's broken
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593 2014-08-15 10:30:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I _think_ zapwallettxes is less likely to be mistaken for something people should run at random times.
594 2014-08-15 10:30:27 <Luke-Jr> oh
595 2014-08-15 10:30:42 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I mean the patch runs, but it misses some (many?) transactions.
596 2014-08-15 10:30:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I am still convinced that that should not be core functionality
597 2014-08-15 10:31:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it shouldn't, but (if it wasn't broken) everyone is doing it wrong anyway
598 2014-08-15 10:31:33 <wumpus> "let's just merge it" and we'll have even more feature creep, why not merge any kind of index everyone may ever need when we're at it
599 2014-08-15 10:31:39 <Luke-Jr> heh
600 2014-08-15 10:31:47 <wumpus> why not add a custom interpreter to define indexes
601 2014-08-15 10:31:57 <Luke-Jr> that might actually be interestingish
602 2014-08-15 10:32:01 <wumpus> why not change it to a block chain forensic framework?
603 2014-08-15 10:32:03 <gmaxwell> wumpus: dunno if you looked into it but addrindex is not really an address index.
604 2014-08-15 10:32:05 <wumpus> oh wait, those already exist
605 2014-08-15 10:32:19 <gmaxwell> wumpus: they're useless trash usually.
606 2014-08-15 10:32:36 <wumpus> sigh, that's no reason for us to do it thouh
607 2014-08-15 10:32:40 <gmaxwell> the addrindex it indexes every push > 64 bytes long, so it can do arbritary lookups.
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609 2014-08-15 10:33:06 <gmaxwell> wumpus: the really extensive dependance on almost-universally-wrong centeralized block explorers is a reason.
610 2014-08-15 10:33:13 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: well, it would make multiwallet support easier I think
611 2014-08-15 10:33:13 <wumpus> oh it's broken, and someone needs it! so let's make it part of bitcoind... like picking up all stray kittens and letting them live in your house
612 2014-08-15 10:33:29 <Luke-Jr> s/easier/not take forever to load wallets/
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615 2014-08-15 10:34:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it isn't just that, its a hard thing to do well because its integrated with the state of the network. The implementation in bitcoind has only 1.5gb of additional overhead over the txindex because we already have the blocks in any case too.
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617 2014-08-15 10:34:23 * Luke-Jr wonders how big Electrum's index of it is
618 2014-08-15 10:34:58 <wumpus> yes, it's a hard thing to do well, I hope someone will pick it up as a seperate project and specialize in it
619 2014-08-15 10:35:33 <wumpus> picking up extra things that are hard to do well makes bitcoind very hard to maintain well
620 2014-08-15 10:35:36 <gmaxwell> Its much easier to do well inside bitcoind, fundimentally so because it's mostly using data an unpruned full node already has.
621 2014-08-15 10:35:49 <wumpus> there are many things that are easier to do in bitcoind
622 2014-08-15 10:35:51 <gmaxwell> It's also relatively well isolated.
623 2014-08-15 10:36:07 <wumpus> I just don't want to pick up all that extra code
624 2014-08-15 10:36:21 <wumpus> I'm fine with an extension mechanism, I've even suggested one in some pull request
625 2014-08-15 10:36:29 <dsnrk> you can't do much worse than Insight's address based index.
626 2014-08-15 10:36:31 <wumpus> but as it is right now, I don't want to merge it
627 2014-08-15 10:36:45 <gmaxwell> I don't think it should be merged now in any cas.e
628 2014-08-15 10:37:02 <gmaxwell> Its currently buggy, and I think we must not merge it until pruning is a widely deployed thing.
629 2014-08-15 10:37:15 <wumpus> I'd be fine with a small API in which bitcoind can load modules that do in-process processing, if there is really a high demand for that
630 2014-08-15 10:37:37 <wumpus> though you'd say that handling things in external processes is better for separation and sanity
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632 2014-08-15 10:37:59 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I would not really be excited to peper the code with function-pointer distpatches all over the place.
633 2014-08-15 10:38:09 <gmaxwell> right.
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636 2014-08-15 10:38:12 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well, it's the one or the other
637 2014-08-15 10:38:42 <gmaxwell> No, it's not. "search for transactions with pushes matching this pattern" is a pretty general functionality which could be provided internally.
638 2014-08-15 10:38:46 <wumpus> I'm not really excited to peper the bitcoin core source with all kinds of indexes that are not required for functioning as a node
639 2014-08-15 10:38:47 <Luke-Jr> {"params": ["1D8P57AQunnGNSHGGbEMyRcakdfnnHCv5W"], "id": 7, "method": "blockchain.address.subscribe"}
640 2014-08-15 10:38:49 <Luke-Jr> wtf, seriously?
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643 2014-08-15 10:39:34 <wumpus> the point of it is not trying to be everything, the point is to have basic infastructure
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645 2014-08-15 10:41:00 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: that's from Electrum yes?
646 2014-08-15 10:41:08 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: yes
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648 2014-08-15 10:41:19 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: I was hoping maybe I could abuse their servers as a scriptPubKey index
649 2014-08-15 10:41:30 <Luke-Jr> but of course they don't do it sanely
650 2014-08-15 10:41:32 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I am also not interested in peppering with all kinds of indexes which are not required. Otoh, this is a pretty general thing, is an ~700 line patch, and could be even more isolated than it is currently.
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652 2014-08-15 10:41:59 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: no, there's not a lot sane in electrum-server. did you notice the IRC based server discovery?
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654 2014-08-15 10:42:09 <Luke-Jr> dsnrk: I think I did before
655 2014-08-15 10:42:14 <gmaxwell> wumpus: e.g. there is a middle ground between some kind of dynamically loadable plugin whatever and by omission forcing people to continue to use crap centeralized services.
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657 2014-08-15 10:43:05 <gmaxwell> wumpus: and I include with this the belief that its also not a priority, so it should not come before other considerations, and right now there are a lot of those.
658 2014-08-15 10:43:11 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: mm, lots of questionable choices. Insight makes the same sort of indexes but it's dog slow. don't know what they're doing, but they're doing it wrong.
659 2014-08-15 10:43:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sure, the dynamically loadable plugin thing was just a wild idea, I'd also be much more happy if it could be done as an external process
660 2014-08-15 10:44:18 <dsnrk> Luke-Jr: for some reason requests to it scale linearly with the number of transactions, so if you have an address like Satoshi Dice you pretty much kill the interface.
661 2014-08-15 10:44:28 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: any of these things need to be indexing hundreds of millions of records. It actually requires fairly clever work to make that perform well.
662 2014-08-15 10:44:36 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but in general a way in which people can define plugins that can piggy-back on bitcoind's capabilities wouuld be nice
663 2014-08-15 10:44:54 <wumpus> address indexes is just one thing
664 2014-08-15 10:45:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, it's not really more work than indexing transaction ids :p
665 2014-08-15 10:46:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: txids is 44m records, txout indexing is about 5 times that, and double again to index txins to catch where txouts were spent. If you store just the txid for each of these, with no overhead it's 14 gigabytes of data.
666 2014-08-15 10:46:53 <wumpus> if currently something like insight needs huge redundant indexes, then maybe we should think how we can help them reduce that, and in general make it easier to do that kind of things
667 2014-08-15 10:48:23 <wumpus> (without having to add lots of code to bitcoind)
668 2014-08-15 10:48:45 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sipa's implementation uses a lossy index and then postprocesses the results to remove the false hits. So this requires you to have fast access to the blocks. Json serializing over several gigabytes of data to throw out most of it doesn't make for a fast query.
669 2014-08-15 10:49:09 <wumpus> gmaxwell: json serializing is just one option
670 2014-08-15 10:49:09 <dsnrk> wumpus: for Insight thats ~42GB at the moment.
671 2014-08-15 10:49:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. [push you're looking for] gets reduced to a 64 bit query key, and that tells you the list of blocks you need to scan.
672 2014-08-15 10:49:30 <gmaxwell> (IIRC)
673 2014-08-15 10:51:14 <gmaxwell> dsnrk: better than that postgres full node thing electrum used to be based on that took >350GBytes two years ago. :P
674 2014-08-15 10:51:30 <dsnrk> Bitcoin-ABE
675 2014-08-15 10:51:34 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but say that specific case is merged; people may come with compeltely reasonable arguments to merge yet another type of index, and another one, until bitcoind is insight :p
676 2014-08-15 10:51:48 <wumpus> I'd really like a more general solution here
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678 2014-08-15 10:52:22 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well that particular one is pretty generic, in that it indexes every object pushed in a script pub key over some size threshold (needed to prevent index pollution).
679 2014-08-15 10:52:26 <Jouke> I am running bitcoin-abe, and it has grown to 125GB allready :o
680 2014-08-15 10:52:27 tjopper has joined
681 2014-08-15 10:52:36 <gmaxwell> Jouke: it used to be much worse.
682 2014-08-15 10:53:11 <gmaxwell> wumpus: but yes, I agree with the general point you're making. Whatever is done there should be pretty modular.
683 2014-08-15 10:53:18 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes it is completely reasonable, and sounds good, I give up :)
684 2014-08-15 10:53:38 <gmaxwell> But it also must have very high performance to be usable, and integrate with chain reorginzation and so on.
685 2014-08-15 10:53:53 psgs is now known as psgs|away
686 2014-08-15 10:53:58 <wumpus> yes it needs entry point for all of those
687 2014-08-15 10:54:23 <wumpus> that's my point really... we could define an API that gives all those events, and people could index in any way they think of
688 2014-08-15 10:55:02 <gmaxwell> the obvious thing to do is that the addrindex patch could just be refactored around to basically create that interface, internally at least. Source modularity is a good step even if its not some external plugin thing.
689 2014-08-15 10:55:07 <wumpus> could even send it in binary serialized format through shared memory, I believe ZMQ (but not the lossy pubsub) may come in handy there again
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705 2014-08-15 11:04:54 <wumpus> not only for indexing, there would be tons of other use cases for a high-performance API that queries bitcoind's databases (while bitcoind is running) and can subscribe to certain events
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707 2014-08-15 11:06:22 <wumpus> it would reduce the cliff between whatever is merged into bitcoind and what is not, so we have less difficult (or even policitical) decisions
708 2014-08-15 11:07:09 <wumpus> there is the enormous pressure to keep bitcoind small and maintainable on one hand and all kind of adventurous ideas people would like to do in the other hand
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719 2014-08-15 11:19:46 <wumpus> another part that desparately needs to be modularized is mining/mempool policy
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734 2014-08-15 11:34:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: the transaction selection code should be considered merely example code also
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736 2014-08-15 11:37:32 <hearn> bitcoin works best when all nodes agree on everything. i don't think "policy" is something we should encourage: the desire to have it should normally reflect some bug in inadequacy somewhere else in the system
737 2014-08-15 11:38:37 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: what would be the preferred way to do it, then? not use getblocktemplate?
738 2014-08-15 11:38:37 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin doesn't work at all when all nodes agree on everything
739 2014-08-15 11:38:44 <Luke-Jr> then you just have a centralised digital currency
740 2014-08-15 11:38:51 <wumpus> hearn: nodes only have to agree on the consensus rules
741 2014-08-15 11:38:54 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not use mainline bitcoind for mining
742 2014-08-15 11:39:02 <wumpus> hearn: the rest is 'policy'
743 2014-08-15 11:39:27 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok, but if bitcoind had the approriate API to be able to make those decisions externally they could just use mainline bitcoind
744 2014-08-15 11:39:42 <hearn> Luke-Jr: eh? no. all you need for decentralisation is that people *can* disagree, not that they actually must always do so
745 2014-08-15 11:39:45 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sure, it's just a different way of applying a patch
746 2014-08-15 11:40:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: the only reason they have to use a forked bitcoind in the first place is because there isn't one, everything is done in one big monolithic process
747 2014-08-15 11:40:05 <Luke-Jr> hearn: if they don't, then the person making the decision for them is de facto in charge
748 2014-08-15 11:40:41 <hearn> wumpus: in practice, nothing stops miners with divergent policies fighting over the block chain as well and calling it policy. the mempool vs block chain difference is something of a distraction there. as there's no sane way to explain what blocks or confirmations are to non-expert users, in practice we must have as much consistency over "policy" as we possibly can.
749 2014-08-15 11:40:43 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no, it's not a different way of applying a patch, a well-defined isolated API means much less porting work from version to version
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751 2014-08-15 11:41:08 <hearn> Luke-Jr: no, not at all. there are lots of rules in bitcoin that everyone agrees to because ..... they feel it's worth agreeing. not because someone told them to.
752 2014-08-15 11:41:13 <hearn> Luke-Jr: consider the 21 million coin limit
753 2014-08-15 11:41:37 <wumpus> hearn: that's why there should be an API for decisions that don't involve consensus, it creates a clear barrier between what shouldn't be varied and what could be
754 2014-08-15 11:41:40 <hearn> that is "policy" and miners could choose to ignore it. but we find it better and more profitable to agree.
755 2014-08-15 11:42:02 gjj has joined
756 2014-08-15 11:42:04 <jgarzik> People agree on that stuff mostly because it is an arbitrary number to which you agree, to join the system.
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758 2014-08-15 11:42:10 <wumpus> hearn: right now miners generally to run their own fork of bitcoind, which means they are slower to update, and also that it's easier to make a mistake that DOES affect consensus rules
759 2014-08-15 11:42:22 <jgarzik> 21M, 10 min, nobody gave deep significance to the actual number (versus 22M, 9 min, ...)
760 2014-08-15 11:42:33 <hearn> wumpus: seems like most miners don't have much in the way of policy today. certainly we should encourage them to have less, and fix any problems that result in people wanting divergence.
761 2014-08-15 11:42:56 <hearn> e.g. fees were being manually set, gavin is trying to move everyone towards floating fees
762 2014-08-15 11:43:00 <wumpus> hearn: 'we' don't need to fix everything. I want 'us' out as bottleneck. we could be hit by a bus every day
763 2014-08-15 11:43:10 <jgarzik> I don't think developers alone should be determining by fiat such existential questions.
764 2014-08-15 11:43:36 <hearn> wumpus: sure but for as long as the buses stay away, "we" (the greater "we") can fix things.
765 2014-08-15 11:43:50 <hearn> ideally for any given question around what bitcoin accepts, there should be one obviously best answer
766 2014-08-15 11:44:00 <hearn> it's true that we don't always have that today, but imho that should be the goal
767 2014-08-15 11:44:29 <wumpus> I don't share your idealism in that
768 2014-08-15 11:44:53 <wumpus> what is best for you doesn't need to be best for me, certainly not on a larger scale... of course it's great if everyone agrees, but you can't force that
769 2014-08-15 11:45:05 <hearn> otherwise you end up with (worst case) miners forking each others chains and (best case) inability to judge the value of an unconfirmed transaction. but as end users will struggle to handle this notion of some unconfirmed transactions being "riskier" than others depending on unknowable factors, that'd make bitcoin a lot harder to use
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771 2014-08-15 11:45:30 <wumpus> anyhow, this drifts off point, I didn't mean to start a philosophical discussion
772 2014-08-15 11:46:22 <jgarzik> Resist planning too far ahead. Better to be informed by current problems, current events, current uses and users.
773 2014-08-15 11:46:56 <hearn> well, we do currently have problems caused by miner policy :( as was pointed out a bunch of times, people use eligius' divergent policy to double spend
774 2014-08-15 11:47:03 <Luke-Jr> hearn: FUD
775 2014-08-15 11:47:13 <hearn> same thing for the fee drop which in retrospect should have been done using some kind of coinbase flag to get consensus
776 2014-08-15 11:47:18 <hearn> (or whatever mechanism)
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779 2014-08-15 11:47:45 <Luke-Jr> fee is policy, no consensus needed
780 2014-08-15 11:47:46 <hearn> Luke-Jr: i think we went over this before, a few months ago, no? there were people double spending against dice addresses exploiting the fact that eligius drops them from the mempool and other pools don't
781 2014-08-15 11:48:04 <Luke-Jr> hearn: irrelevant, they could have been double spending without that, with better performance
782 2014-08-15 11:48:13 <Luke-Jr> because they were double spending UNCONFIRMED transactions
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785 2014-08-15 11:49:10 <hearn> yes, well, we've been around that one before. the notion of confirmed vs unconfirmed mattering has to be shrunk as much as possible for usability reasons. otherwise lots of basic tasks people want to do just become impractical.
786 2014-08-15 11:49:19 <hearn> so fixing them one by one is the way to go
787 2014-08-15 11:49:49 <Luke-Jr> spreading FUD that's been shown false does not help anything.
788 2014-08-15 11:50:03 <hearn> and yes people can/could double spend thanks to the fee drop and some miners not upgrading. floating fees should fix this in the long run, as long as people watch out for transactions on the edge
789 2014-08-15 11:50:19 <hearn> (still lots of open questions about how this will work in practice though)
790 2014-08-15 11:50:44 <hearn> (given that most people will want to pay the lowest fee possible so will always be on the edge of what actually "works" for some flexible definition of "work")
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795 2014-08-15 11:54:02 <jgarzik> Having instant, secure transactions is possible without nutty schemes that attempt to synchronize mempools or miner policy.
796 2014-08-15 11:54:11 <jgarzik> And without centralized services.
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804 2014-08-15 11:59:11 <hearn> bitcoin *is* an attempt to synchronise everything together. that's the core of what it does. it's hardly nutty.
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809 2014-08-15 12:03:39 <jgarzik> "that attempt to synchronize mempools or miner policy."
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811 2014-08-15 12:04:11 <jgarzik> thus in the content of the current discussion, and covering efforts over and above current blockchain consensus mechanism.
812 2014-08-15 12:04:36 <jgarzik> *context
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814 2014-08-15 12:04:59 <Luke-Jr> indeed, it's because that's what bitcoin does that trying to do that is nutty ;)
815 2014-08-15 12:05:13 <Luke-Jr> if mempools could be synchronised, we wouldn't need a blockchain
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817 2014-08-15 12:05:29 <wumpus> it's not an attempt to synchronize everything together, it's an attempt to agree on a very limited set of rules that are set in stone in the beginning, and use that to keep an agreement about a certain state of the world
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819 2014-08-15 12:06:43 <wumpus> ie, the utxo set
820 2014-08-15 12:08:18 <sipa> and only after time passes
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822 2014-08-15 12:08:43 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: btw, there *is* a tool for deterministic key generation already ;)
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824 2014-08-15 12:08:45 <sipa> there is no consensus on what the 'current utxo set' is; there is exponentially increasing chance for consensus about what it was in the past
825 2014-08-15 12:09:00 <jgarzik> I was not speaking generally about bitcoin, as just noted.
826 2014-08-15 12:09:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: oh?
827 2014-08-15 12:09:07 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: pycoin
828 2014-08-15 12:09:24 <jgarzik> IMO hearn often pursues the path of synchronize mempools+miner policy -> zero conf transactions are now safe.
829 2014-08-15 12:09:33 <jgarzik> which is not bitcoin, IMNSHO
830 2014-08-15 12:09:45 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: oh, right, wouldn't be surprised if 'sx' could do it too
831 2014-08-15 12:10:07 <hearn> well, it's an optimisation problem. obviously the perfect p2p currency would have instant, guaranteed safe transactions without any of this mining malarky
832 2014-08-15 12:10:07 <sipa> i expect that there will be a strong incentive in the future for mempool consensus, as it can be used improve block forwarding
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834 2014-08-15 12:10:18 <hearn> bitcoin is not that. but why not strive to get closer to perfection?
835 2014-08-15 12:10:19 <sipa> but as a goal on itself i do not think it should be enforced or even encouraged
836 2014-08-15 12:10:50 <hearn> wumpus: what tool do you need?
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838 2014-08-15 12:10:55 <jgarzik> hearn, bitcoin == IP of TCP/IP. Don't do everything in the same layer.
839 2014-08-15 12:10:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I was just mentioning deterministic key generation as an example of a stand-alone, as sipa has been working on that
840 2014-08-15 12:11:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: optimising it as a special case *is* encouragement
841 2014-08-15 12:11:07 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: +utility
842 2014-08-15 12:11:22 <jgarzik> hearn, you can accomplish the goal without fundamentally altering bitcoin to some Platonic ideal
843 2014-08-15 12:11:26 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sure, I just mean it already exists
844 2014-08-15 12:11:55 <jgarzik> IP (irreversible packets) required TCP and HTTP before "the web" became useful
845 2014-08-15 12:11:57 <hearn> it's hardly altering bitcoin. the original bitcoin has no notion of miner policy at all. that's all stuff that's been added later, after satoshi left.
846 2014-08-15 12:12:16 <jgarzik> malarky. miner policy has always existed in bitcoin.
847 2014-08-15 12:13:01 <sipa> i'd very much like to hear satoshi's view on the current system
848 2014-08-15 12:13:04 <hearn> yes? which flags/options in the original bitcoin let you customise mining policy?
849 2014-08-15 12:13:14 <sipa> but appealing to how he may have wanted to design things is pointless
850 2014-08-15 12:13:18 <wumpus> hearn: none, that's why a lot of miners run with ooooold bitcoind forks :(
851 2014-08-15 12:13:36 <wumpus> hearn: they made a few changes once and refuse to spend time to port it forward, because yeah it works
852 2014-08-15 12:13:39 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: well, I think "old bitcoind forks" died with 0.8
853 2014-08-15 12:13:45 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that was a "must have" bump ;)
854 2014-08-15 12:13:50 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: okay :)
855 2014-08-15 12:14:20 <Luke-Jr> Deepbit probably still runs 0.3, but they're not relevant anymore :p
856 2014-08-15 12:14:31 <wumpus> hearn: you can't avoid miner policy, if you don't make it explicit, it's implicit
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859 2014-08-15 12:15:29 <jgarzik> hearn, All of the early miners ran forks. The policy was easy to change, as it is encoded into BitcoinMiner() (grep for 'nMinFee' inside BitcoinMiner)
860 2014-08-15 12:16:13 <hearn> right, i know people can always introduce it. it's not like the absence of a flag will stop people making changes if they really want to. however, it's definitely something we should find ways to resolve, by having a "clearly right" answer for whatever the question is. e.g. fee estimation clearly gets us closer to this for fees.
861 2014-08-15 12:16:24 <jgarzik> hearn, early satoshi crypto posts (perhaps whitepaper itself) touched on miner policy vis a vis fees and transaction selection.
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863 2014-08-15 12:17:17 <jgarzik> hearn, That's not a universally shared opinion by any stretch of the imagination
864 2014-08-15 12:17:20 codice has joined
865 2014-08-15 12:17:31 <hearn> if it was, i would be arguing for it would i :-)
866 2014-08-15 12:17:35 <jgarzik> hehehe
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868 2014-08-15 12:17:51 <Luke-Jr> hearn: let's mainline my spamfilter branch then, it's clearly an improvement
869 2014-08-15 12:18:48 <Luke-Jr> if all miners ran with it, it'd also close that one-of-many ways to double spend you mentioned earlier
870 2014-08-15 12:19:02 <hearn> i'd point out that has been a lot more controversial than fee estimation, except then i suspect you'd want to go and start trying to make that controversial as well :)
871 2014-08-15 12:19:37 <hearn> well if all miners ran with it, and all blocked dice addresses, those sites would stop reusing addresses and the code would become useless/inactive. so .....
872 2014-08-15 12:20:07 <Luke-Jr> that was sarcasm, to make a point that even when there is a clear improvement, it doesn't mean everyone ought to be pressured into it
873 2014-08-15 12:20:45 <hearn> i think we're vigorously agreeing without realising it (ironic given the topic). i don't think people should be pressured into consensus (how?) but that we should strive to obtain it via natural means, like finding solutions that everyone agrees on
874 2014-08-15 12:21:16 <hearn> e.g. everyone agrees that bitcoin does not have infinite capacity and some transactions are more useful than others, but is a spam filter the best solution? or is it better to just let the fee market sort things out (if the fee market worked....)
875 2014-08-15 12:21:47 <Luke-Jr> it's better to have empty blocks, than blocks full of spam
876 2014-08-15 12:22:53 <hearn> yeah but that's not the choice we face
877 2014-08-15 12:23:43 <jgarzik> ...and when 1MB block size changes, fee market implodes
878 2014-08-15 12:24:18 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: depends on how and when? :p
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880 2014-08-15 12:25:06 <jgarzik> current proposals for "constant sized blocks" (headers plus enough metadata to reconstruct full block) easily allow 1GB per block
881 2014-08-15 12:25:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thats confused and incorrect.
882 2014-08-15 12:25:48 siddh has quit (Quit: siddh)
883 2014-08-15 12:25:50 akstunt600 has joined
884 2014-08-15 12:26:18 <gmaxwell> Relaying blocks more efficiently doesn't change the inherent tradeoffs at allâ (and p2pool has done more efficient realying for years, okay, it's not _quite_ constant size, but assuming consistent memory pools its a few bytes per transaction)
885 2014-08-15 12:26:57 <gmaxwell> Making relaying more efficent is important and good, but it doesn't change the resource required to keep up with the network.
886 2014-08-15 12:29:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, It self evidently does. You stop relaying transactions twice.
887 2014-08-15 12:29:30 <jgarzik> that resource usage is 0.5x
888 2014-08-15 12:29:38 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I haven't been relaying things twice for years. :P
889 2014-08-15 12:30:01 benrcole has joined
890 2014-08-15 12:30:11 <gmaxwell> You can be not relaying things twice yourself in a couple minutes, tooâ just go grab matt's jar.
891 2014-08-15 12:31:01 benrcole1 has joined
892 2014-08-15 12:31:01 <gmaxwell> Sorry, I should have clarified thenâ perhaps for you it was a 0.5x change in scaling relative to your thinking. OKAY, perhaps so. I certantly wasn't assuming people would continue sending things twice.
893 2014-08-15 12:31:40 <gmaxwell> There is a maximum advantage in that of 0.5x however. Sorry, I'm a bit irritated by people running around saying that bitcoin can now support infinite transactions per second because zomg-constant.
894 2014-08-15 12:33:41 <jgarzik> Relative to what is going on in the real world on today's network, you are removing a major [dumb, needed-to-be-removed] impediment to simply running the network at the speed at which <number> transactions may relayed across the network, verified and remembered.
895 2014-08-15 12:34:01 <jgarzik> It is certainly not infinite, but it changes bitcoin in subtle ways.
896 2014-08-15 12:34:27 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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898 2014-08-15 12:34:43 <jgarzik> The costs of IBD and blockchain size are typically not seen by in-sync nodes, except perhaps by blockchain download-to-peers traffic.
899 2014-08-15 12:35:23 <jgarzik> Oddly, that situation becomes more asymmetric with the removal of sending TXs twice, the second time via 'block'.
900 2014-08-15 12:35:29 <jgarzik> Block size itself becomes less visible.
901 2014-08-15 12:36:45 <jgarzik> That has implications on the block size debate, which in turn impacts how engineers code efficiently and bid for space.
902 2014-08-15 12:36:48 <gmaxwell> I dunno why no one seemed to care about the saving the resend six months ago.
903 2014-08-15 12:37:06 wallet42 has joined
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905 2014-08-15 12:37:53 <jgarzik> Merge this useful change, and next will come the call to remove block size limit altogether, which will throw a nuclear bomb onto any nascent fee market.
906 2014-08-15 12:38:22 <hearn> there will always be *some* block size limit, obviously, as computers are finite machines bound by the laws of physics
907 2014-08-15 12:38:37 <jgarzik> All the VCs and execs want an infinite block size limit. It's a sad fixation.
908 2014-08-15 12:38:45 <hearn> the "block size limit" we talk about is really the one that satoshi put in place to stop troll blocks. if we had a better solution for that, it wouldn't be needed anymore.
909 2014-08-15 12:38:50 <hearn> e.g. a floating limit
910 2014-08-15 12:38:55 SwampTony has quit (Client Quit)
911 2014-08-15 12:39:07 <hearn> but this goes back to the 2010 era debates about what the purpose of fees is/should be
912 2014-08-15 12:39:18 <gmaxwell> A floating limit is not magic though. (also actual in the wild implementations have failed)
913 2014-08-15 12:39:43 <gmaxwell> There is a split in interest between pool operators and the general users of bitcoin.
914 2014-08-15 12:40:44 <gmaxwell> If I was running a mining operation with 100k/month fee income then sure I could easily support transaction rates corresponding to 100GB blocks. But then there would pratically be only a dozen or so full nodes in the network, and under that assumption set ripple has a superior security model.
915 2014-08-15 12:41:00 <hearn> i used to worry about this
916 2014-08-15 12:41:07 <hearn> then i noticed that tx traffic for bitcoin has been flat for a year
917 2014-08-15 12:41:18 <hearn> these days i worry way more about how the hell we're going to increase usage to reach that magical 1mb limit
918 2014-08-15 12:41:38 <gmaxwell> hearn: you can happily generate traffic to drive everyone out of competition. (which is what floating fees seem to have permitted elsewhere :( )
919 2014-08-15 12:41:41 <hearn> i suspect one day we're going to look back on these discussions and say, wow, we were so optimistic :)
920 2014-08-15 12:42:40 <gmaxwell> and yea, I'd agree in general that increasing usage is a bigger concern today... also preventing the system from slipping into a state of centeralization which leaves it with no competative advantage in practice against alternatives like ripple (which are centeralized and make use of that capability)
921 2014-08-15 12:43:11 <hearn> i worry about visa more than ripple
922 2014-08-15 12:43:29 <hearn> contactless batteryless payment cards are pretty nice, if your merchant and tx size supports them
923 2014-08-15 12:43:36 <gmaxwell> just search and replace with your preferred massively more scalable because its centeralized cryptocurrency alternative.
924 2014-08-15 12:45:43 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
925 2014-08-15 12:48:38 <hearn> lol. the dark wallet budget includes 300 EUR per month for "herbs"
926 2014-08-15 12:50:02 <gmaxwell> O_o
927 2014-08-15 12:50:17 <gmaxwell> And on that bit of perplexity, Goodnight everybody.
928 2014-08-15 12:50:20 <hearn> https://wiki.unsystem.net/en/index.php/DarkWallet/Budget
929 2014-08-15 12:50:24 <hearn> good night
930 2014-08-15 12:55:34 <wumpus> :') I wonder what TBF's budget for herbs is
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933 2014-08-15 12:57:37 <hearn> oooh, we're getting close to the magical 1 tx/second mark :)
934 2014-08-15 12:57:38 <hearn> https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions
935 2014-08-15 12:57:48 <hearn> (again)
936 2014-08-15 13:00:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Cory: is pulltester suck? 4701 hasn't had a build yet.
937 2014-08-15 13:01:37 <factorialsquare> are there any good guides anywhere for best practice for building a bitcoin-accepting payment engine?
938 2014-08-15 13:02:59 <wumpus> pulltester indeed seems to be stuck
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941 2014-08-15 13:03:54 <hearn> factorialsquare: there's the developer guide on bitcoin.org, but otherwise, honestly we lack a really great open source merchant engine of the caliber of what bitpay/coinbase have built. at least if one exists i've never seen or heard about it
942 2014-08-15 13:04:02 <wumpus> hopefully for the last time, we're very close to enabling the travis-based one
943 2014-08-15 13:04:44 <factorialsquare> hearn: ok, thanks
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945 2014-08-15 13:05:03 <hearn> factorialsquare: if you'd like to build one i'm happy to give you free opinions on how to do it ;)
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947 2014-08-15 13:05:44 <factorialsquare> hearn: go ahead
948 2014-08-15 13:05:54 <factorialsquare> hearn: :)
949 2014-08-15 13:06:22 <hearn> factorialsquare: have you made many payments via bitpay or coinbase?
950 2014-08-15 13:06:49 <factorialsquare> hearn: no, I havn't made any via them
951 2014-08-15 13:06:54 bedeho has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
952 2014-08-15 13:07:00 <factorialsquare> hearn: maybe I should start checking them out
953 2014-08-15 13:07:12 <factorialsquare> hearn: what's so special about them?
954 2014-08-15 13:07:21 <hearn> well, i'd suggest doing at least one so you get the idea of how they work. here's the one i use for testing: http://bitgivefoundation.org/donate-now/
955 2014-08-15 13:07:32 <hearn> nothing special exactly. but you should IMHO aim to be at least as slick
956 2014-08-15 13:07:51 <hearn> for example, they render a QR code and give you a clickable button, but also automatically refresh the page once the transaction is broadcast
957 2014-08-15 13:08:03 <hearn> so you see immediately that your payment was accepted by the merchant the moment you hit "Send" in your wallet.
958 2014-08-15 13:08:07 <hearn> no need to refresh the browser manually.
959 2014-08-15 13:08:24 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/slickage/baron might be worth checking out.
960 2014-08-15 13:08:28 kdomanski_ has joined
961 2014-08-15 13:08:33 <hearn> they use BIP70 so tx submission is even faster, you don't even have to wait for propagation across the network. it's very nice. they also show you the prices in local currency, etc
962 2014-08-15 13:08:43 <hearn> ah ha!
963 2014-08-15 13:09:29 <hearn> oh. except i tried their demo and it says "baron appears to be down"
964 2014-08-15 13:09:35 <hearn> also you have to pick min_confirmations of at least one.
965 2014-08-15 13:09:49 <factorialsquare> is it possible to build it without any custom bitcoin code or is the JSON-API via bitcoind enough?
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967 2014-08-15 13:10:19 <hearn> you can use json-rpc with bitcoind, you could use bitcoinj (when a bitcoind is running locally it'll be used automatically and you get the same security level), there are other APIs you could use too
968 2014-08-15 13:10:27 <jgarzik> factorialsquare, you'll need at least some custom software, usually.
969 2014-08-15 13:10:35 <jgarzik> factorialsquare, bitcoind isn't built for direct website payments
970 2014-08-15 13:10:36 <hearn> the bitcoin interaction part isn't the difficult bit, imo. it's all the UI stuff.
971 2014-08-15 13:11:00 <gmaxwell> hearn: ah, I've tried it out before, and it's pretty good for what its intended to be.
972 2014-08-15 13:11:03 <hearn> baron sounds good
973 2014-08-15 13:11:10 <hearn> factorialsquare: yeah definitely check out baron
974 2014-08-15 13:11:12 * hearn never heard of it before
975 2014-08-15 13:11:20 <gmaxwell> It's not a system for doing zeroconf, since that usually requires some more "application specific" risk management logic.
976 2014-08-15 13:11:35 <gmaxwell> maybe in the future though.
977 2014-08-15 13:12:38 <hearn> right. though people usually do want that. so that risk management is a very useful feature to have.
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979 2014-08-15 13:13:36 <factorialsquare> jgarzik: what functions is not included in the json-rpc API with bitcoind that you would need for a payment engine?
980 2014-08-15 13:14:36 <hearn> well what do you mean by "payment engine"
981 2014-08-15 13:14:47 elgrecoFL_ has joined
982 2014-08-15 13:14:49 <factorialsquare> accepting payments
983 2014-08-15 13:14:51 <hearn> to me it means things like exchange rate conversion, rendering a web page, doing something useful when the payment is received
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985 2014-08-15 13:15:08 <hearn> making a record of the payment etc
986 2014-08-15 13:15:16 <hearn> you can receive payments with just the json-rpc and -walletnotify flags. however that is the very basics of actually receiving money
987 2014-08-15 13:15:25 <hearn> you'd still want to implement e.g. BIP70 yourself
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1026 2014-08-15 13:34:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: fwiw, I just calculated 185 MB required to do a full index by sPK and spends; though I haven't determined what kind of lookups/sec it would be capable of
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1028 2014-08-15 13:35:08 <Luke-Jr> (also implemented part of the index)
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1030 2014-08-15 13:37:05 <Luke-Jr> 83 MB to lookup block by number (not necessarily height) to file number (11-bit) and word offset (29-bit); indexing sPKs by 20-bit hash160 prefix to 24-bit block number
1031 2014-08-15 13:37:17 <Luke-Jr> (the latter being 6 MB + overflow)
1032 2014-08-15 13:37:34 * Luke-Jr ponders whether he should spend time completing this
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1051 2014-08-15 14:00:36 <ThomasV> what does it mean if "getblock <hash>" returns a result with "confirmations:-1", for an old block ?
1052 2014-08-15 14:07:56 <helo> ThomasV: return -1; // Not in chain, not in mempool
1053 2014-08-15 14:09:06 <jrick> block not in mempool? whut
1054 2014-08-15 14:09:09 <ThomasV> helo: it occurs with block 000000000000000000fdb0eda63a91460fabc03ef4e648e2b672a649f88bfccd
1055 2014-08-15 14:09:15 <ThomasV> which is in chain
1056 2014-08-15 14:09:30 <ThomasV> so there's probably some corruption in my db
1057 2014-08-15 14:09:36 <ThomasV> is this known about?
1058 2014-08-15 14:09:41 <helo> i get "confirmations" : 16143,
1059 2014-08-15 14:11:42 <wumpus> "confirmations" : 14624,
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1062 2014-08-15 14:11:54 <wumpus> ThomasV: do you get it for all blocks, or just that one?
1063 2014-08-15 14:12:08 <ThomasV> wumpus: just that one so far
1064 2014-08-15 14:12:28 <wumpus> can you pastebin the entire output of that getblock?
1065 2014-08-15 14:12:29 ak_ has joined
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1067 2014-08-15 14:12:34 <ThomasV> wumpus: compared with others, I have one txid that differs
1068 2014-08-15 14:12:53 Subo1977 has joined
1069 2014-08-15 14:12:53 <ThomasV> wumpus: https://electrum.org/block299616.txt
1070 2014-08-15 14:13:23 <wumpus> hm so the height is correct
1071 2014-08-15 14:13:37 <ThomasV> someone suggested it's a flipped bit in a tx
1072 2014-08-15 14:14:22 <helo> random - what kind of storage?
1073 2014-08-15 14:15:31 <ThomasV> helo: http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40
1074 2014-08-15 14:15:35 <ThomasV> hard drive
1075 2014-08-15 14:15:44 <wumpus> yup - 96d3f7e192853e85488ca950f1d0cea07d076f23f0a6f923241734ed081a2fd9 for you versus d6328aedce03c9d94c48ebf320a4d7f4b0a8a08f58e2705c6a60e33528066d93 for me
1076 2014-08-15 14:16:23 <gmaxwell> is it the coinbase txn that differs?
1077 2014-08-15 14:16:34 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: no
1078 2014-08-15 14:16:50 <wumpus> no, it has one input and two outputs
1079 2014-08-15 14:17:11 <wumpus> can you get hold of the contents of that transaction?
1080 2014-08-15 14:17:17 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1082 2014-08-15 14:17:39 <ThomasV> note thar getrawtransaction fails for both hashes
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1084 2014-08-15 14:17:44 <mr_burdell> ThomasV: do getblock 000000000000000000fdb0eda63a91460fabc03ef4e648e2b672a649f88bfccd false
1085 2014-08-15 14:17:47 <mr_burdell> and compare
1086 2014-08-15 14:18:45 <gmaxwell> the reason for the -1 is probably because SetMerkleBranch is rehashing the block then it can't find it in the index.
1087 2014-08-15 14:19:45 <wumpus> here's my version to compare https://download.visucore.com/tmp/000000000000000000fdb0eda63a91460fabc03ef4e648e2b672a649f88bfccd.txt
1088 2014-08-15 14:21:11 <ThomasV> they differ
1089 2014-08-15 14:21:14 <wumpus> anyhow, this indeed seems like a bitflip in your block files (not the block index or utxo database)
1090 2014-08-15 14:22:10 <ThomasV> wumpus: how likely is this?
1091 2014-08-15 14:22:29 <wumpus> that's completely dependent on your hardware
1092 2014-08-15 14:22:41 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: can you post the actual data you got?
1093 2014-08-15 14:23:04 <wumpus> I've had a pc with a malfunctioning CPU, which created all kinds of weird random corruptions at random times
1094 2014-08-15 14:23:31 <wumpus> also it can also be caused by bugs in the kernel with dma'ing
1095 2014-08-15 14:23:37 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: misplaced writes are not uncommon as are random bitflips on non-error corrected systems. sadly people are running servers on things without even ecc ram.
1096 2014-08-15 14:23:58 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: https://electrum.org/block299616
1097 2014-08-15 14:24:04 <ThomasV> that's the raw one
1098 2014-08-15 14:24:13 <ThomasV> https://electrum.org/block299616.txt is the json
1099 2014-08-15 14:24:23 <gmaxwell> how did you obtain the raw one?
1100 2014-08-15 14:24:32 <gmaxwell> oh false, thats fine
1101 2014-08-15 14:24:37 <ThomasV> getblock 000000000000000000fdb0eda63a91460fabc03ef4e648e2b672a649f88bfccd false
1102 2014-08-15 14:24:51 <wumpus> a malfunction in the harddisk itself is unlikely to cause one bit flip
1103 2014-08-15 14:25:53 <wumpus> as those do have error-correction logic
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1107 2014-08-15 14:27:27 <wumpus> a[841920] -> '3' versus '1'
1108 2014-08-15 14:27:30 <gmaxwell> it's actually a 1 bit difference here.
1109 2014-08-15 14:27:30 <wumpus> yep, a one-bit flip
1110 2014-08-15 14:28:03 <ThomasV> ok
1111 2014-08-15 14:28:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: whats more common on disks is flying writes where a whole sector gets trashed with a write that should have been to another sector
1112 2014-08-15 14:28:35 <gmaxwell> now for bonus points figure out what difference the 1 bit makes. :)
1113 2014-08-15 14:28:38 <wumpus> gmaxwell: heh, a mistargeting
1114 2014-08-15 14:29:18 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: is there a way to fix that block without redoing all the rest?
1115 2014-08-15 14:29:39 <gmaxwell> shut down the node go hex edit the blockfile.
1116 2014-08-15 14:29:42 <wumpus> yes, figure out at what offset that block is in the file
1117 2014-08-15 14:29:47 <ThomasV> heh, ok
1118 2014-08-15 14:29:50 <wumpus> (ie, search for the data)
1119 2014-08-15 14:29:54 <wumpus> then patch in the right value :P
1120 2014-08-15 14:30:02 <ThomasV> that's kinda raw
1121 2014-08-15 14:30:34 <ThomasV> maybe I should scann all blocks for "confirmations: -1"
1122 2014-08-15 14:30:36 <wumpus> bitcoind regards the block files as immutable, so it has no functions to 'edit' the block file
1123 2014-08-15 14:30:47 <wumpus> ThomasV: would be better to just do a reindex then
1124 2014-08-15 14:30:56 <ThomasV> yeah
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1126 2014-08-15 14:31:08 <ThomasV> well
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1128 2014-08-15 14:32:29 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: do you think it comes from the ram, or from the disk? ( http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex40 )
1129 2014-08-15 14:32:42 <ThomasV> it says "software raid 1"
1130 2014-08-15 14:32:52 <wumpus> as discussed above, disks seldom fail in this manner
1131 2014-08-15 14:33:19 hearn has joined
1132 2014-08-15 14:33:29 <ThomasV> I will still do a scan, to see if it happened with other blocks
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1134 2014-08-15 14:33:52 <ThomasV> it might not be the only one
1135 2014-08-15 14:34:30 <wumpus> but yes the ram is a likely suspect
1136 2014-08-15 14:34:37 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: it's likely ram
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1138 2014-08-15 14:35:12 <gmaxwell> I think I computed the expected bitflip rate for my 64gb hosts at a couple per day.
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1140 2014-08-15 14:37:27 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: ok, they also offer servers with ecc ram, so that means mine does not have ecc
1141 2014-08-15 14:37:39 <ThomasV> I guess I will upgrade :)
1142 2014-08-15 14:38:15 <ThomasV> thank you guys
1143 2014-08-15 14:38:24 <ThomasV> I learned something
1144 2014-08-15 14:40:04 <hearn> one time in google we had a bitflip in a bigtable database master
1145 2014-08-15 14:40:12 <hearn> it flipped a character in a string controlling replication datacenter paths
1146 2014-08-15 14:40:52 <hearn> so /bigtable/yq-i/something became (handwave) /bigtable/ys-i/something
1147 2014-08-15 14:41:07 <hearn> the entire web crawl ground to a halt as the system tried to replicate from a non-existent database :)
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1153 2014-08-15 14:44:19 <wumpus> hehe, ouch
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1155 2014-08-15 14:46:11 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: just be glad it wasn't a pubkey you were computing when that bitflip happened.
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1159 2014-08-15 14:49:17 <hearn_> grrr internets
1160 2014-08-15 14:49:22 <hearn_> gmaxwell: i thought you were going to sleep?
1161 2014-08-15 14:49:40 <gmaxwell> people were wrong on the internets.
1162 2014-08-15 14:49:41 * hearn_ was surprised to learn that gmaxwell sleeps and is therefore unsurprised to learn that it's a lie
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1164 2014-08-15 14:49:56 <gmaxwell> hah
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1166 2014-08-15 14:52:14 <hearn> hmm. the problem with trying to recalculate pubkeys at the last moment before they're given to the app is encrypted wallets
1167 2014-08-15 14:52:25 <hearn> though i guess you could rederive from the parent
1168 2014-08-15 14:52:37 <hearn> that should be just as good w.r.t. bitflip checking
1169 2014-08-15 14:54:45 <gmaxwell> hearn: you need to worry about bitflips in the ecdsa implementation ram too, which are fun because they'll result in stable errors.
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1171 2014-08-15 14:55:27 <hearn> ah yes
1172 2014-08-15 14:55:30 <hearn> the precomputed tables?
1173 2014-08-15 14:55:41 <hearn> well you can never really win at this sort of thing. just add a few tripwires here and there.
1174 2014-08-15 14:55:42 <gmaxwell> But they'll also break the homorphic properties so you could compute G*(key+n)-G*n and G*k and compare.
1175 2014-08-15 14:55:48 <helo> so you'd have to save the private key to disk, compute the pubkey, read from disk, recompute pubkey to ensure no bitflip?
1176 2014-08-15 14:55:58 <hearn> helo: bitcoinj serialises pubkeys to disk
1177 2014-08-15 14:56:10 <hearn> helo: so basically i'm just adding rederive from parent pubkey and check they match
1178 2014-08-15 14:56:36 <helo> okay
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1180 2014-08-15 14:57:13 <gmaxwell> hearn: along the lines of minimizing these risks I went and implemented sha512 that works in the bit reversed (1=0 0=1) domain, then its also easy to implement the ecmult that takes bitreversed input.
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1182 2014-08-15 14:58:14 <gmaxwell> with the idea of you could compute the key in parallel, so even freaky faults like registers getting bits set to 1 wouldn't pass. dunno if its really work the complexity vs the check via homomorphism that I described above, which is simple easy.
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1194 2014-08-15 15:08:24 <hearn> gmaxwell: "key" in that formula is the pubkey?
1195 2014-08-15 15:08:42 <hearn> gmaxwell: the problem is I don't have "k", just the parent pubkey
1196 2014-08-15 15:08:49 <hearn> because the users wallet may be encrypted at the point a key is requested
1197 2014-08-15 15:09:19 <hearn> i suppose i could check both at vending time, and at signing time for change addresses, at least for locally signed wallets.
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1199 2014-08-15 15:09:41 <hearn> no key must be the private key, i guess
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1207 2014-08-15 15:10:47 <gmaxwell> it's private in that example.. in that case of derriving from the pubkey you're doing a tweak operation, where generating from the master is MP + G*(tweak) which can still be checked e.g. by doing it twice, once with tweak and once with tweak+something and then adding the inverse of something *G to the result and comparing.
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1209 2014-08-15 15:13:11 <hearn> does it matter if something is dynamically random? i think not
1210 2014-08-15 15:13:15 <hearn> but i guess making it random can't hurt either
1211 2014-08-15 15:14:00 <gmaxwell> well it hurts in that the 1/something * G can be precomputed and just sit around if something is static.
1212 2014-08-15 15:14:08 <hearn> so doing it the normal bip32 way when keys are first derived, and then doing tweak+something + modinverse(something*G) at vend time
1213 2014-08-15 15:14:26 <hearn> seems reasonable
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1230 2014-08-15 15:30:49 <hearn> gmaxwell: to double check: (G*tweak)+MP == (G* (tweak+rnd_uint256).mod(n)) + MP + (G*(rnd_uint256.modInverse(n))) ?
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1232 2014-08-15 15:30:55 * hearn is trying to implement this but the results don't match
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1239 2014-08-15 15:38:39 <gmaxwell> sorry, lack of sleep, you need the additive inverse. (rnd + n-1 mod n)
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1249 2014-08-15 15:51:56 <hearn> gmaxwell: sorry, more sucky internets. additive inverse is also just (-rnd_uint256 mod n) right? so G*(-rnd_uint256 mod n)
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1251 2014-08-15 15:53:37 <gmaxwell> yup.
1252 2014-08-15 15:54:31 <hearn> hmm. i must still be doing something wrong.
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1254 2014-08-15 15:56:44 <gmaxwell> works here
1255 2014-08-15 15:56:46 <gmaxwell> sage: G*tweak + P == G*(tweak+r) + G*int(N(-r)) + P
1256 2014-08-15 15:56:46 <gmaxwell> True
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1262 2014-08-15 15:59:41 <hearn> yeah. wonder where my mistake is
1263 2014-08-15 15:59:43 <hearn> my code is http://hastebin.com/arijukokod.java
1264 2014-08-15 15:59:44 <hearn> the else branch
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1266 2014-08-15 16:01:38 <gmaxwell> is your N correct? it should be 115792089237316195423570985008687907852837564279074904382605163141518161494337
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1269 2014-08-15 16:02:20 <hearn> urgh
1270 2014-08-15 16:02:32 <hearn> never mind. it does work now. for some reason intellij stopped rebuilding properly
1271 2014-08-15 16:02:37 <hearn> i just forced a rebuild and now it does work.
1272 2014-08-15 16:02:48 <hearn> the last update made things so flaky. it used to be solid as a rock.
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1282 2014-08-15 16:12:12 <hearn> there we go. https://github.com/bitcoinj/bitcoinj/commit/f00aef2048a2c3bce0b5d325bf4f3a16fe104cdc
1283 2014-08-15 16:12:13 <hearn> gmaxwell: thanks
1284 2014-08-15 16:12:28 <hearn> will try it out for a while and see if it causes any problems (shouldn't do)
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1301 2014-08-15 16:33:07 <dgenr8> visa
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1303 2014-08-15 16:34:14 <hearn> gmaxwell: is there a simple formula for encrypting a small integer using a secp256k1 private key?
1304 2014-08-15 16:34:22 <hearn> i.e. a bip32 key path number
1305 2014-08-15 16:34:30 viic has joined
1306 2014-08-15 16:34:44 <hearn> ecies looks complicated
1307 2014-08-15 16:35:18 <dgenr8> hearn: i just saw sdlerner's nimblecoin. seems more relevant then either visa or ripple. 5s block time solves a big problem if it works
1308 2014-08-15 16:35:26 <gmaxwell> It's very easy to be massively insecure. When you say encrypt using a private key, do you mean encrypt using a public key?
1309 2014-08-15 16:37:01 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1310 2014-08-15 16:37:29 <gmaxwell> The reason I ask if you mean public/private is that if you're encrypting just to yourself then you can skip the asymetric crypto entirely, e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=726495.0
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1321 2014-08-15 16:42:18 <hearn> stupid internet.
1322 2014-08-15 16:42:30 <hearn> gmaxwell: sorry, now i'm the sleep deprived one. i can just the the wallet seed as an AES key
1323 2014-08-15 16:42:35 <hearn> (for this use case)
1324 2014-08-15 16:42:57 <Luke-Jr> hearn: "just use the"?
1325 2014-08-15 16:43:00 <gmaxwell> hearn: yea, thats the idea in that bitcointalk post.
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1327 2014-08-15 16:43:07 <hearn> yes sorry, just use the
1328 2014-08-15 16:43:29 <gmaxwell> (not the seed but the first private key or whatever, same idea)
1329 2014-08-15 16:43:31 <hearn> i want to encrypt some data so only the wallet owner can read it, and ended up thinking "i have EC keys, therefore I must encrypt with ECC"
1330 2014-08-15 16:43:33 <hearn> which makes no sense
1331 2014-08-15 16:43:36 <hearn> right
1332 2014-08-15 16:44:05 <gmaxwell> it's a good idea, I also recommended the btcd people use that approach for their wallet metadata.
1333 2014-08-15 16:44:25 <dgenr8> the recent focus on block propagation times. is there is a secret plan to reduce the block time someday?
1334 2014-08-15 16:44:34 <dgenr8> cuz if you don't get down to 5s, why bother
1335 2014-08-15 16:44:39 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: â¦
1336 2014-08-15 16:45:18 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: there is no benefit to reducing the block interval; there is lots of benefit to reducing propagation time
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1339 2014-08-15 16:46:02 <Luke-Jr> (and 5s block interval is insane)
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1341 2014-08-15 16:46:13 <gmaxwell> Or at least no benefit to reducing the block interval that can't be had in some other way that doesn't massively increase overheads for SPV validators.
1342 2014-08-15 16:46:24 <gmaxwell> (and create huge centeralization pressures)
1343 2014-08-15 16:46:42 <dgenr8> well then we are stuck with finding other ways to address 0-conf reliability
1344 2014-08-15 16:47:01 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: no, it's not a problem.
1345 2014-08-15 16:47:31 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: and reducing block interval does not "address" it
1346 2014-08-15 16:48:02 <dgenr8> sdlerners simulations are quite interesting
1347 2014-08-15 16:49:07 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: you are delirious to think that 10min +- 12 min confirmation time is not a problem
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1349 2014-08-15 16:49:36 <Apocalyptic> dgenr8, you are delirious to think it is
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1351 2014-08-15 16:49:40 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: confirmation time is 1 hour. making the block interval shorter does not change that noticably.
1352 2014-08-15 16:50:00 <Luke-Jr> confirmation time for credit cards is 6+ months
1353 2014-08-15 16:50:28 <Luke-Jr> I think an hour is good enough considering the alternative
1354 2014-08-15 16:50:57 <dgenr8> sigh, i do don't want to be the one to create the double-spending wallet app
1355 2014-08-15 16:51:14 <dgenr8> s/do/so/
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1358 2014-08-15 16:51:26 <BigBitz> wait, what, Luke-Jr.
1359 2014-08-15 16:51:33 <BigBitz> 6+months for a Credit Card confirmation?
1360 2014-08-15 16:51:37 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: You can't be, Bc.i did so though they didn't maintain it so it stopped working about a year ago.
1361 2014-08-15 16:51:53 <gmaxwell> BigBitz: it takes months for a credit card payment to become irreversable.
1362 2014-08-15 16:51:54 <Luke-Jr> BigBitz: yes, that's how long until you know a credit card transaction is irreversible
1363 2014-08-15 16:52:12 ak_ has joined
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1365 2014-08-15 16:52:17 <BigBitz> You mean in regards to a fraudulant transaction?
1366 2014-08-15 16:52:29 <dgenr8> this CC settlement talk is way off point. the guy in argentina selling sandwiches will get stolen from soon
1367 2014-08-15 16:52:31 <BigBitz> They're covered by the payment proceesor. Isn't his point that a Bitcoin 'confirm' takes a long time.
1368 2014-08-15 16:52:36 <gmaxwell> Thats also what Bitcoin is doing.
1369 2014-08-15 16:52:41 <hearn> comparing CC and bitcoin reversals is a bit misleading
1370 2014-08-15 16:52:48 <BigBitz> Yeah it's a bit... off, surely.
1371 2014-08-15 16:52:54 <hearn> in practice card payments cannot be arbitrarily reversed. you have to file a dispute with the bank.
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1373 2014-08-15 16:53:01 <BigBitz> correct hearn.
1374 2014-08-15 16:53:01 <gmaxwell> BigBitz: they are absolutely not "covered" by the payment processor. Merchant eats any reversals.
1375 2014-08-15 16:53:01 <hearn> the bank sides with merchants about 40% of the time
1376 2014-08-15 16:53:33 <hearn> if a merchant is careful to avoid obvious fraud, they don't typically have much to fear. for example outside the USA most countries are using EMV now and accepting those payments is basically risk free, instantly (in person)
1377 2014-08-15 16:53:42 <gmaxwell> hearn: the dispute takes a five minute phone call, then they'll later mail you a filled out form to sign off on.
1378 2014-08-15 16:53:45 <Luke-Jr> BigBitz: um, they're not covered by the payment processor. it gets takes back from the merchant.
1379 2014-08-15 16:54:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and in the meantime, the merchant is pressured to just refund you to avoid the chargeback cost
1380 2014-08-15 16:54:35 <dgenr8> i'll feel bad stealing cupcakes ... i mean, i will reimburse them, but I will shake their faith in btc
1381 2014-08-15 16:55:11 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: why don't you go into Walmart and run off with some expensive item, with the understanding you'll reimburse them later?
1382 2014-08-15 16:55:20 <Luke-Jr> because that's no different than what you're proposing
1383 2014-08-15 16:55:21 <BigBitz> I meant the anti-fraud element is covered by the payment processor, but, you are correct there is no magic win/win situation for a Merchant taking stolen CC.
1384 2014-08-15 16:55:33 <BigBitz> and infact what Luke-Jr says is right - the Merchant will likely refund before they get hit with costs.
1385 2014-08-15 16:56:21 <Luke-Jr> I wouldn't be surprised if retail bitcoin acceptance ends up requiring a photo id, but oh well
1386 2014-08-15 16:56:54 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: lol the poor cupcake shop can't find out for 10 +- 12 minutes
1387 2014-08-15 16:56:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, it's something I've recommended to merchants. Moves the security model much closer to the cash and credit card ones.
1388 2014-08-15 16:57:10 <Luke-Jr> (it might not, if people don't fraud more than their expected rate)
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1392 2014-08-15 16:58:13 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: shorter block interval wouldn't change that. neither would they find out you used a stolen credit card until probably days later.
1393 2014-08-15 16:58:19 <stevenleeg> Luke-Jr: why photo id?
1394 2014-08-15 16:58:29 <Luke-Jr> stevenleeg: so if you fraud them, they know who to go after legally
1395 2014-08-15 16:58:37 <Luke-Jr> stevenleeg: same as personal checks
1396 2014-08-15 16:58:53 <gmaxwell> (or ban you from further business)
1397 2014-08-15 16:59:02 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: give it up ... the reason they take CC's is because *visa takes the risk*
1398 2014-08-15 16:59:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: true, that might actually be the cheaper option XD
1399 2014-08-15 16:59:09 <stevenleeg> Luke-Jr: hmm what sort of fraud though?
1400 2014-08-15 16:59:13 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: Visa does not.
1401 2014-08-15 16:59:16 <dgenr8> or the bank rather
1402 2014-08-15 16:59:19 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: visa does _not_ take the risk.
1403 2014-08-15 16:59:22 <BigBitz> anyways I only poked in here to make you aware of some FUD --> <Xuthus> OMG new exploit found in bitcoin Protocol !!
1404 2014-08-15 16:59:22 <BigBitz> conversations are above my intellect in here :)
1405 2014-08-15 16:59:24 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: Visa/banks put ALL the risk of the merchant
1406 2014-08-15 16:59:26 <stevenleeg> like, is there any way for someone to revoke bitcoins after they've paid to a merchant?
1407 2014-08-15 16:59:27 <gmaxwell> Nor does the bank. The merchant takes the risk.
1408 2014-08-15 16:59:29 <hearn> dgenr8: it's complicated and varies a lot
1409 2014-08-15 16:59:32 <hearn> the bank takes the risk in EMV zones
1410 2014-08-15 16:59:43 <Luke-Jr> stevenleeg: yes
1411 2014-08-15 16:59:45 <hearn> which is basically everywhere now except america. but even the USA is planning a liability shift in 2015
1412 2014-08-15 16:59:57 <hearn> so soon Luke-Jr and gmaxwell will be wrong in the USA too, unless there's another delay (quite possible)
1413 2014-08-15 16:59:57 <gmaxwell> Well I know squat about EMV zones, in the US the merchant takes 100% of the risk.
1414 2014-08-15 17:00:31 <hearn> however this applies only to card-present transactions where EMV is used. if you accept magstripe, it's back to merchant liability.
1415 2014-08-15 17:00:31 <BigBitz> US banking system is awful though.
1416 2014-08-15 17:00:31 <hearn> basically the rule post-liability-shift is "whoever has the weakest technology pays"
1417 2014-08-15 17:00:33 <hearn> if the bank and users card both support EMV but the merchant doesn't, merchant pays for fraud
1418 2014-08-15 17:00:40 <dgenr8> well we're in the running for that prize
1419 2014-08-15 17:00:40 <hearn> if the merchant supports EMV and the bank or the user doesn't, bank pays
1420 2014-08-15 17:00:47 <hearn> this arranges incentives correctly. it's not a bad setup.
1421 2014-08-15 17:01:05 <gmaxwell> (having been on both sides of this, as a CC accepting merchant that was defrauded by a customer to the tune of a thousand bucks, and as someone who had bogus charges put on his card and got them reversed in <<5 minutes)
1422 2014-08-15 17:01:22 <hearn> liability shift also applies online *if* the merchant implements 3DS, but that costs extra money and hassle for the user, so some merchants prefer to trust their own anti-fraud systems
1423 2014-08-15 17:01:23 <BigBitz> gmaxwell EMV with chip/PIN.
1424 2014-08-15 17:01:45 <BigBitz> and yes, as I was about to say, if you have 3DS then you're going to have Merchant paying you back for liabilities/losses.
1425 2014-08-15 17:01:55 <dgenr8> cc analogies only go so far, since btc aims at the cash market
1426 2014-08-15 17:02:03 <hearn> thus this argument may work today, in the USA, but is rapidly becoming obsolete and in a few years won't be a reasonable argument for bitcoin community to make anymore
1427 2014-08-15 17:02:09 <BigBitz> in most places in UK you can't even use your CC/Debit without Chip/PIN
1428 2014-08-15 17:02:13 cbeams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1429 2014-08-15 17:02:22 <hearn> put another way, our competitors care very much about zero-confirm transactions and are working to make them better :)
1430 2014-08-15 17:02:26 <BigBitz> Where as in US you just magswipe that bad boy and it's good.
1431 2014-08-15 17:02:36 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: similar story with checks. You have no clue if its good when you accept one (unless you clear it with telechex, and then they insure it, but they cost like $2 per transation, well, or did a decade ago)
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1435 2014-08-15 17:02:47 <dgenr8> thats why NOBODY ACCEPTS THEM
1436 2014-08-15 17:02:50 <BigBitz> gmaxwell you can barely use a (nonbusiness) Cheque in UK.
1437 2014-08-15 17:02:55 <hearn> yeah. that's an americanism again. cheques are dead outside the USA
1438 2014-08-15 17:03:08 <dgenr8> even in the usa for damn near everythign
1439 2014-08-15 17:03:42 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: meh, virtually everywhere still does, it's just less common to see them.
1440 2014-08-15 17:03:55 <BigBitz> virtually everywhere in US, maybe.
1441 2014-08-15 17:04:00 <Luke-Jr> well, unfortunately, with present technology, 1 hour is the minimum time to confirm a decentralised transaction.
1442 2014-08-15 17:04:03 <BigBitz> Virtually nowhere in UK accecpt cheque.
1443 2014-08-15 17:04:07 <gmaxwell> BigBitz: yes, that was within the US.
1444 2014-08-15 17:04:19 <BigBitz> but we all know US Banking System is archaic.
1445 2014-08-15 17:04:22 <gmaxwell> (I know that dgenr8 is also in the US)
1446 2014-08-15 17:04:23 <BigBitz> (EU comparison)
1447 2014-08-15 17:04:27 <BigBitz> Ah, OK, fair.
1448 2014-08-15 17:04:31 <BigBitz> I figured he was in EU :)
1449 2014-08-15 17:04:32 <dgenr8> its been a long time, but i'm pretty sure the a supermarket will dial up some service if a new customer gives them a check
1450 2014-08-15 17:04:47 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: pretty sure they just write your DL # on it
1451 2014-08-15 17:04:57 <Luke-Jr> disclaimer: I never use cheques
1452 2014-08-15 17:05:20 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: ok, so is the plan to ask for DL# when spending btc?
1453 2014-08-15 17:05:25 <pigeons> i went to pay my state property taxes the other day and "electronic check" (give them my bank routing # and account # are free, while credit cards are $5 processing fee
1454 2014-08-15 17:05:38 damethos has quit (Quit: Bye)
1455 2014-08-15 17:05:38 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: it's a reasonable thing to do in some cases for some threat models.
1456 2014-08-15 17:05:40 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: if people commit fraud against merchants with bitcoin all the time, that seems like a probable outcome
1457 2014-08-15 17:05:55 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: helpfully, at least Florida DLs have magstrips
1458 2014-08-15 17:06:04 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: likewise there are plenty of businesses who let you take a paper and a coffee and drop usd in a cup.
1459 2014-08-15 17:06:07 <hearn> it's obviously preferable if people don't have to present ID to make a bitcoin transaction.
1460 2014-08-15 17:06:57 <dgenr8> its sad seeing the benefits that btc could and should add be argued agains
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1462 2014-08-15 17:07:15 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: well, unfortunately, with present technology, 1 hour is the minimum time to confirm a decentralised transaction.
1463 2014-08-15 17:07:17 <gmaxwell> Then there are things like the 2of2 anti-doublespend approaches, e.g. greenaddress.it instant transactions, though I don't know if that will gain traction.
1464 2014-08-15 17:07:19 <Luke-Jr> there is no solution to that today
1465 2014-08-15 17:08:08 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: the security you can get in a decenteralized system in a short amount of time is just fundimentally limited. Fortunately for many transactions you don't actually need a lot of security.
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1469 2014-08-15 17:08:57 <dgenr8> if we work on "short amount of time" the problem can be improved an unknown, but possibly significant amount
1470 2014-08-15 17:09:06 <dgenr8> i dunno if 5s block time would work, just interested
1471 2014-08-15 17:09:09 brson has joined
1472 2014-08-15 17:09:12 <Luke-Jr> another option (someday) is people just using Visa to pay at the retail, and then pay their Visa balance with bitcoin
1473 2014-08-15 17:09:29 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: again, shorter block intervals do *not* reduce the confirmation time
1474 2014-08-15 17:09:35 <dgenr8> wrong
1475 2014-08-15 17:09:42 <gmaxwell> He isn't wrong.
1476 2014-08-15 17:10:03 <BigBitz> Wouldn't 5s blocktimes cause over creation of currency...
1477 2014-08-15 17:10:09 <dgenr8> sdlerner finds that 5s block time leads to 25s until .1% reversal prob
1478 2014-08-15 17:10:10 <gmaxwell> Changing the blocktime doesn't change the actual time it takes to get information around to people or the computing power that might reverse some amount of apparent certanty.
1479 2014-08-15 17:10:10 <Luke-Jr> BigBitz: that's the least of the problems
1480 2014-08-15 17:10:21 <BigBitz> dgenr8 block release times are nothing to do with confirmation times.
1481 2014-08-15 17:10:32 <dgenr8> BigBitz: do some reading ^
1482 2014-08-15 17:10:34 davispuh has quit (Quit: rebooting)
1483 2014-08-15 17:10:34 <BigBitz> It's the ability to process the hash quickly which reduces the time.
1484 2014-08-15 17:10:44 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: his analysis is not including adversarial models, he's just computing the probablity of _chance_ reorganizations.
1485 2014-08-15 17:10:46 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: sdlerner = some random person who doesn't understand Bitcoin?
1486 2014-08-15 17:10:58 <gmaxwell> It's sergio, he's generally clueful.
1487 2014-08-15 17:11:02 <Luke-Jr> oh
1488 2014-08-15 17:11:04 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: if hash power wants to break the network, bitcoin is also dead
1489 2014-08-15 17:11:17 <Luke-Jr> didn't see that handle before O.o
1490 2014-08-15 17:11:53 <BigBitz> amd I stupid? How does block release speed up confirmation?
1491 2014-08-15 17:11:57 <BigBitz> s/amd/and
1492 2014-08-15 17:11:58 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Sorry that doesn't make any sense. With very small blocks very small amounts of hashpower can make small reorginizations.
1493 2014-08-15 17:12:08 wfbarks has joined
1494 2014-08-15 17:12:51 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: the analysis also doesn't consider network instability, it's assuming the interconnections of hosts is completely reliable.
1495 2014-08-15 17:13:24 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: nor does it consider the incentive implications (e.g. benefits to consolidating all mining to a single miner)
1496 2014-08-15 17:13:38 <dgenr8> it's a quantitative analysis, so needs to be rebutted quantitatively
1497 2014-08-15 17:13:46 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: propagation time fraction of the interval is essentially LOST hashing ONLY by the "good guys"
1498 2014-08-15 17:14:06 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: It doesn't "need" to be anything.
1499 2014-08-15 17:14:10 <Luke-Jr> so 5s blocks means about 20% wasted hashrate
1500 2014-08-15 17:14:17 Emcy has joined
1501 2014-08-15 17:14:26 <dgenr8> Luke-Jr: now you sound like coinheavy
1502 2014-08-15 17:14:28 <BigBitz> am I stupid? How does block release speed up confirmation? --- Luke-Jr? it doesn't, right?
1503 2014-08-15 17:14:33 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: It's just an analysis, it's not claiming to be anything it is isn't. You're the person who's reading too much into it.
1504 2014-08-15 17:14:35 <Luke-Jr> so to 50% attack it, you now only need 40%
1505 2014-08-15 17:14:46 <dgenr8> exactly what did I read into it
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1507 2014-08-15 17:14:48 <gmaxwell> BigBitz: it doesn't.
1508 2014-08-15 17:14:51 <Luke-Jr> BigBitz: right
1509 2014-08-15 17:14:58 Raziel has joined
1510 2014-08-15 17:15:00 <BigBitz> gmaxwell: That's good. I didn't think it did.
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1512 2014-08-15 17:15:24 <BigBitz> dgenr8 what was it you suggest I read, exactly?
1513 2014-08-15 17:16:09 <dgenr8> http://nimblecoin.com/
1514 2014-08-15 17:16:27 <BigBitz> That's not Bitcoin.
1515 2014-08-15 17:16:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that analysis shows 6% orphan rate, but I think thats partally because it's assuming a miner latency of 0.
1516 2014-08-15 17:16:33 <BigBitz> I have no interest in alt/scam coins.
1517 2014-08-15 17:16:35 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: this isn't ##altcoin-dev
1518 2014-08-15 17:16:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: lol
1519 2014-08-15 17:16:51 pen has joined
1520 2014-08-15 17:17:08 <BigBitz> zero miner latency........
1521 2014-08-15 17:17:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: but whatever, its a fine thing for a technical discussion.
1522 2014-08-15 17:18:14 <dgenr8> the other massive unsolved problem in real life use is ... address reuse. i think we agree on that one
1523 2014-08-15 17:18:19 <hearn> hah
1524 2014-08-15 17:18:24 <hearn> "the other massive unsolved problem"
1525 2014-08-15 17:18:26 ahmed_ is now known as igotspots
1526 2014-08-15 17:18:31 <hearn> i like that attitude. sunny! only two big problems left to go :)
1527 2014-08-15 17:18:33 <gmaxwell> (almost all mining hardware has multisecond latenciesâ it's why p2pool had to back of to a 30 second share chain, even tens of seconds in some cases)
1528 2014-08-15 17:18:55 <hearn> dgenr8: wanna help me ship the next bitcoinj release? :D
1529 2014-08-15 17:19:08 ThomasV has joined
1530 2014-08-15 17:19:10 <dgenr8> sure
1531 2014-08-15 17:19:27 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: well we can likely eliminate the address reuse completely, but it has a cost in transaction size.
1532 2014-08-15 17:19:39 igotspots is now known as ahmed_
1533 2014-08-15 17:19:45 <Luke-Jr> I find it a pain to pay bitcoins in retail. I have to VNC to my home computer, including type my 30+ character SSH password, access my hot wallet in Bitcoin Core, type in a bitcoin address, â¦
1534 2014-08-15 17:19:52 <Luke-Jr> :P
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1537 2014-08-15 17:19:52 Clown is now known as |Clown|
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1542 2014-08-15 17:20:33 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: worth it. when gavin has to update his old posts to erase the addresses, you know there's a problem
1543 2014-08-15 17:22:19 <gmaxwell> yea, I took addresses out of my bitcoin talk forum post sigs for that reason. I have one in the profile where it doesn't end up in search indexes and just manually rotated it on the rare event it gets paid anything.
1544 2014-08-15 17:23:15 <hearn> dgenr8: there's one last fix to go before we can ship the next release
1545 2014-08-15 17:23:19 <hearn> dgenr8: (to hd wallets)
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1548 2014-08-15 17:23:36 <hearn> dgenr8: but right now i'm crunching to open source lighthouse by end of the month because that's what I promised olivier. so i'm not doing much on bcj right now.
1549 2014-08-15 17:23:52 <hearn> dgenr8: the change is a bitch though. that's why the others who normally contribute are letting me handle it :) so depends how brave you feel
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1552 2014-08-15 17:24:50 <dgenr8> i look forward to getting bcj env set up
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1557 2014-08-15 17:27:27 <hearn> dgenr8: ok. happy to walk you through it on #bitcoinj
1558 2014-08-15 17:27:32 <hearn> (or here, up to you)
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1564 2014-08-15 17:28:47 <dgenr8> miners are being unkind to respends recently. so the strategy for a double-spending wallet might be to xmit the respend first, about 1s before real spend
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1566 2014-08-15 17:30:23 <hearn> dgenr8: also, bcj has a (very simple, mostly braindead) risk analysis framework for unconfirmed transactions
1567 2014-08-15 17:30:26 <hearn> dgenr8: it'd be great if it was smarter
1568 2014-08-15 17:30:48 <mr_burdell> dgenr8: how do you know they're blocking respends?
1569 2014-08-15 17:31:49 <mr_burdell> and doublespending isn't that hard if your first transaction is abnormal in some way
1570 2014-08-15 17:32:20 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: it doesn't even have to be abnormal
1571 2014-08-15 17:32:33 <mr_burdell> Luke-Jr: for better reliability
1572 2014-08-15 17:32:36 <Luke-Jr> that's just a common FUD these days (that is has to be abnormal, or that making it abnormal helps)
1573 2014-08-15 17:32:45 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: no, you get better reliability by making it normal
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1575 2014-08-15 17:34:05 <mr_burdell> I've tested sending a new tx with not much changed, and it usually doesn't work... but if the first tx has lower fees (0.00001/kb instead of 0.0001/kb) then the second one usually works
1576 2014-08-15 17:35:16 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: make one 600 kB
1577 2014-08-15 17:35:49 <mr_burdell> well, that's essentially just lowering the fee too though
1578 2014-08-15 17:35:53 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: no
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1580 2014-08-15 17:35:57 <Luke-Jr> it also slows down relaying
1581 2014-08-15 17:36:00 <mr_burdell> or are some mining filters specifically on size
1582 2014-08-15 17:36:08 <Luke-Jr> so your second, smaller one, gets propagated MUCH faster
1583 2014-08-15 17:36:13 <Luke-Jr> and therefore hits more nodes
1584 2014-08-15 17:36:32 <dgenr8> mr_burdell: not many quick tx2 confirms (orange), usually tx1 confirmed for quick double-spend (green) http://respends.thinlink.com/
1585 2014-08-15 17:36:33 <mr_burdell> oh, well, I was waiting 20-30 seconds, so I don't think the relay time changed much
1586 2014-08-15 17:36:39 <mr_burdell> or is that enough
1587 2014-08-15 17:36:53 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: consider that each node must *complete* the verification before it *begins* relaying it
1588 2014-08-15 17:37:01 <Luke-Jr> and the relay is like 2 round trips
1589 2014-08-15 17:37:10 <Luke-Jr> per peer
1590 2014-08-15 17:37:34 <mr_burdell> dgenr8: I don't think that shows enough info: http://mempool.info/noblock
1591 2014-08-15 17:37:48 <mr_burdell> almost all the tx I've seen have some "flag" on them
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1594 2014-08-15 17:38:39 <dgenr8> look at de78e845831204192dd63aaa0a0d2edb5da56a348afe46bb38212b8bae1f579f no flag, 74BTC attempt
1595 2014-08-15 17:38:46 <mr_burdell> Luke-Jr: right, but typically if you respend, then you would need to wait until someone received it... so it's still not the best option for that kind of attack imo
1596 2014-08-15 17:39:27 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: just because nobody is doing something doesn't mean it won't work
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1598 2014-08-15 17:40:12 <mr_burdell> dgenr8: 74BTC? where do you see that?
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1601 2014-08-15 17:41:03 <dgenr8> tx1 = spent in tx1 http://respends.thinlink.com/tx/de78e845831204192dd63aaa0a0d2edb5da56a348afe46bb38212b8bae1f579f
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1603 2014-08-15 17:41:39 <mr_burdell> oh i see... I should probably link to any mined tx with same txouts
1604 2014-08-15 17:42:08 <mr_burdell> so the point of that one is that the one that went through would be much higher priority
1605 2014-08-15 17:42:58 <mr_burdell> even with 0 fee apparently
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1609 2014-08-15 17:44:49 <hearn> mr_burdell: nice site! can you have >1 tag per tx?
1610 2014-08-15 17:45:10 <hearn> mr_burdell: also not sure with UCvin is meant to mean. there's no problem with an unconfirmed tx depending on another
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1613 2014-08-15 17:45:57 <mr_burdell> hearn: the UCvin means that one of the vin's was also unconfirmed when it was received
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1615 2014-08-15 17:46:13 <mr_burdell> so if a previous tx was invalidated, then it would drop those
1616 2014-08-15 17:46:32 <mr_burdell> and I only put one tag on each one at the moment
1617 2014-08-15 17:46:37 <hearn> ok
1618 2014-08-15 17:46:44 <mr_burdell> kind of a random order based on what I figured was more or less important
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1629 2014-08-15 18:02:06 <hearn> dgenr8: i'm going to have to go soon. we can discuss more on the mailing list. but essentially the last chunk of work remaining is to ensure that if chain sync runs ahead of the keys in the bloom filter we stop the sync process, push the lookahead zone forward, recalculate and send the bloom filter, then resume syncing from that point onwards. it's a thread sync problem. currently the key lookahead zone will be recalculated and bloom filter recalculated
1630 2014-08-15 18:02:06 <hearn> too as a result, but it won't interrupt the chain sync at the right time, so it ends up racing the process and we could miss transactions
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1632 2014-08-15 18:02:59 <hearn> dgenr8: so we need unit tests for this, and then basically to make the DeterministicKeyChain class throw an exception when it sees that the last key in the lookahead zone was marked as used and it didn't get a chance to recalculate the filter yet. in other words, if the user has used up keys fast enough to outrun the run of blocks we're downloading.
1633 2014-08-15 18:03:50 <hearn> dgenr8: and after ensuring the relevant code is exception safe, mark the rest of the downloaded blocks as scrap, throw them away, and ensure the filter is recalculated (which will pre-calculate more keys), then resume
1634 2014-08-15 18:04:21 <hearn> dgenr8: it's made more tricky by the fact that we may have been in the middle of a block and have committed some transactions to the wallets already. so we need a pre-pass, effectively, in which before any block is processed, all wallets are informed about the keys being used before they're committing the changes.
1635 2014-08-15 18:04:45 <dgenr8> guess I better look at how SPV filters are even used then ... don't expect too much too fast ;/
1636 2014-08-15 18:04:58 <hearn> no, like i said, it's a tricky change. probably i'll have to do it next month
1637 2014-08-15 18:05:06 <hearn> but you're welcome to investigate and i'm happy to answer any questions
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1640 2014-08-15 18:05:29 <hearn> once that's done we just need to do some documentation and stuff to do the release, and after the release, wallet authors will upgrade to HD/non-key-reusing wallets
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1647 2014-08-15 18:08:34 <hearn> dgenr8: alternatively improving the risk analysis code would be easier :)
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1649 2014-08-15 18:10:51 <dgenr8> i saw what mycelium is doing ... pretty clever
1650 2014-08-15 18:11:33 <hearn> what's that?
1651 2014-08-15 18:13:35 <dgenr8> the android wallet lists their risk mitigation measures, they develop a score
1652 2014-08-15 18:13:51 <dgenr8> we are talking about 0-conf right
1653 2014-08-15 18:14:13 <hearn> yeah
1654 2014-08-15 18:14:31 <hearn> well, dumping a bunch of protocol details in front of the user is useless
1655 2014-08-15 18:14:45 <hearn> we really need a boolean output
1656 2014-08-15 18:14:46 <hearn> anyway
1657 2014-08-15 18:14:48 <hearn> gotta go
1658 2014-08-15 18:14:50 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1659 2014-08-15 18:15:01 <dgenr8> ttyl
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1675 2014-08-15 18:39:28 <asdfwewer> Hello
1676 2014-08-15 18:39:41 <asdfwewer> anyone in here?
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1679 2014-08-15 18:44:30 asdfwewer is now known as bitcoinssg
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1695 2014-08-15 18:56:32 blast has joined
1696 2014-08-15 18:56:40 <blast> Hi everyyyyybody!
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1755 2014-08-15 20:10:05 <lifeofcray> ssh: connect to host localhost port 2223: Connection refused
1756 2014-08-15 20:10:05 <lifeofcray> bin/gbuild:21:in `system!': failed to run on-target true (RuntimeError)
1757 2014-08-15 20:10:08 <lifeofcray> anyone familiar?
1758 2014-08-15 20:10:17 <lifeofcray> kvm is running
1759 2014-08-15 20:10:48 GM0127 has joined
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1761 2014-08-15 20:12:28 <dansmith_btc> lifeofcray, I would get that error quite often using KVM, that's why I switched to LXC
1762 2014-08-15 20:12:52 karc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1763 2014-08-15 20:12:54 <dansmith_btc> sometimes this error would go away after a dozen or so retries
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1769 2014-08-15 20:17:59 <Squidicc> Hi, having issues with my node processing a block... reindex isn't fixing this time. any other things I could try?
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1772 2014-08-15 20:22:11 Neozonz has joined
1773 2014-08-15 20:22:11 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@192-0-149-245.cpe.teksavvy.com|Changing host)
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1778 2014-08-15 20:23:18 <Squidicc> and now the node says a warning about network issues...
1779 2014-08-15 20:23:38 <Squidicc> getting this: http://pastebin.com/9JE16T5Y if is of any help
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1788 2014-08-15 20:27:26 <Squidicc> I am running: v0.9.2.1-g354c0f3-beta of bitcoin-qt core
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1797 2014-08-15 20:37:47 <Squidicc> yeah, nevermind.
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1804 2014-08-15 20:56:29 <lifeofcray> [22:06] <dansmith_btc> lifeofcray, I would get that error quite often using KVM, that's why I switched to LXC
1805 2014-08-15 20:56:31 <lifeofcray> how?
1806 2014-08-15 20:57:41 <dansmith_btc> USE_LXC = 1 env var, lifeofcray
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1814 2014-08-15 21:05:21 <Mattry> hi
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1822 2014-08-15 21:08:12 <cfields> gavinandresen: around?
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1824 2014-08-15 21:08:21 <gavinandresen> yes
1825 2014-08-15 21:08:49 <cfields> gavinandresen: if you've got a few spare min, could you build against the new dependencies stuff and see if that fixes the rendering?
1826 2014-08-15 21:08:54 <cfields> that would help narrow it down
1827 2014-08-15 21:09:19 <cfields> it's easy enough to build, i can give you a quick rundown
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1829 2014-08-15 21:09:23 <gavinandresen> cfields: is there a README for that?
1830 2014-08-15 21:09:39 jctb has quit (Client Quit)
1831 2014-08-15 21:09:54 <cfields> gavinandresen: yea, but not one for building natively yet. Atm it's aimed at c-i and gitian
1832 2014-08-15 21:10:13 <cfields> gavinandresen: see depends/README.usage
1833 2014-08-15 21:10:42 jctb has joined
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1835 2014-08-15 21:12:16 <gavinandresen> cfields: running make in depends gives Fetching native_ccache then some downloads and then shasum: -: No such file or directory
1836 2014-08-15 21:12:28 <gavinandresen> cfields: shasum on OSX maybe doesn't understand that - means stdin??
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1839 2014-08-15 21:13:07 <cfields> gavinandresen: hmm, i have a shasum binary in osx, so i assumed it came with the OS
1840 2014-08-15 21:13:20 <gavinandresen> cfields: it does...
1841 2014-08-15 21:13:35 <cfields> oh right, the input
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1843 2014-08-15 21:13:49 <cfields> gavinandresen: ok, don't worry about it then. I'll get some more testing on osx first
1844 2014-08-15 21:14:02 jctb has joined
1845 2014-08-15 21:15:57 <gavinandresen> cfields: okely dokely.
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1850 2014-08-15 21:16:58 <cfields> gavinandresen: i'd be happy to work on it with you if you'd like, just figure you've probably got other things to be hacking on
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1886 2014-08-15 21:55:25 <jope_> hey
1887 2014-08-15 21:55:30 <jope_> any altcoin developer here?
1888 2014-08-15 21:56:15 <gmaxwell> jope_: see the topic
1889 2014-08-15 21:56:19 RagnarDanneskjol has joined
1890 2014-08-15 21:56:45 <jope_> so where can I check what I want?
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1906 2014-08-15 22:13:13 <lifeofcray> alright guys
1907 2014-08-15 22:13:49 <lifeofcray> i'm on the last step of building bitcoin
1908 2014-08-15 22:14:08 The_Fly_ is now known as The_Fly
1909 2014-08-15 22:14:23 <lifeofcray> got a gitian-win32.yml file that looks something like this
1910 2014-08-15 22:14:24 <lifeofcray> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-qt/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/gitian-win32.yml
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1912 2014-08-15 22:15:27 <lifeofcray> but the remotes: thing wants to put it in github
1913 2014-08-15 22:15:35 <lifeofcray> how do i make it compile locally
1914 2014-08-15 22:15:50 <dwk> set url to file:///tmp ?
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1916 2014-08-15 22:17:46 <lifeofcray> it's that easy?
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1918 2014-08-15 22:18:31 <dwk> I have no idea. I'm just guessing.
1919 2014-08-15 22:19:16 <dwk> Looks like you may need to make an empty git repo somewhere for it.
1920 2014-08-15 22:19:27 <lifeofcray> yeah
1921 2014-08-15 22:19:37 <lifeofcray> but i'd like to just output it to the disk firsk
1922 2014-08-15 22:19:48 <dwk> I mean, git init /tmp/foo
1923 2014-08-15 22:20:09 <dwk> then set url to file:///tmp/foo
1924 2014-08-15 22:20:25 <lifeofcray> ah
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1938 2014-08-15 22:49:23 <cray-on`> nope
1939 2014-08-15 22:49:25 <cray-on`> didnt work
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1942 2014-08-15 22:50:13 Raccoon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1943 2014-08-15 22:51:13 <dwk> error messages?
1944 2014-08-15 22:54:12 alferz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1949 2014-08-15 22:56:01 <cray-on`> same as before
1950 2014-08-15 22:56:08 <cray-on`> so i put remote: []
1951 2014-08-15 22:56:10 alferz has joined
1952 2014-08-15 22:56:15 <cray-on`> and it goes to the second stage
1953 2014-08-15 22:56:17 <cray-on`> where i get this
1954 2014-08-15 22:56:58 Elglobo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1955 2014-08-15 22:56:58 DougieBot5000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1956 2014-08-15 22:57:07 <cray-on`> http://gyazo.com/7eb90c8840399d1f768682b738ec9086
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1960 2014-08-15 22:58:46 <cray-on`> http://gyazo.com/8e279c605a38b12d5ee15eb6019e548d last lines of build.log
1961 2014-08-15 22:59:11 mpmcsweeney has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1962 2014-08-15 23:00:56 Lycerion has joined
1963 2014-08-15 23:01:05 <cray-on`> hm... i raed that sometimes stuff lingers in the kvm
1964 2014-08-15 23:01:10 <cray-on`> imma try rebooting
1965 2014-08-15 23:01:13 <cray-on`> see if it helps
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1980 2014-08-15 23:32:56 <cray-on`> i seriously don't get what i'm doing wrong
1981 2014-08-15 23:38:29 sahlhoff has joined
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1983 2014-08-15 23:40:39 MolokoDeck has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
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1988 2014-08-15 23:46:09 <cray-on`> :/
1989 2014-08-15 23:48:38 sahlhoff has left ()
1990 2014-08-15 23:49:16 mpmcsweeney has joined
1991 2014-08-15 23:50:11 <alferz> im looking for tools similar to gavin's bitcoin-tools python scripts collection. but it seems that is outdated because it doesnt support the current levelDB block index. Are there any other tools available that can parse the entire block chain, including orphaned blocks?
1992 2014-08-15 23:52:16 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1994 2014-08-15 23:55:13 cray-on` is now known as lifeofcray
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1998 2014-08-15 23:56:24 lifeofcray is now known as Cray-on