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  34 2014-08-17 00:29:56 <BlueMatt> ayansh: sorry, I'm (slowly) recovery from catastrophic fs failure...but yea, it should be 8336
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  52 2014-08-17 00:40:27 <agorist000> petertodd, are you available? I have a question about python-bitcoinlib.
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  92 2014-08-17 01:06:35 <gmaxwell> Anyone know what Mike's plan for lighthouse and getutxo is?  I feel like the network was pressured for a overly hasty rollout of bloom filters on the basis of wanting it for bitcoinj, and I'm concern the same will happen for 0.10 and getutxo.
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 110 2014-08-17 01:41:10 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, the getutxo PR thread seemed to cover that.  He was going to sample multiple nodes exporting getutxos.
 111 2014-08-17 01:42:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I am definitely not ACK'ing that PR, as it exports the info untrusted (even if block height/etc. included).
 112 2014-08-17 01:42:49 <jgarzik> but reluctant to NAK
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 114 2014-08-17 01:43:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I mean right now there are no nodes exporting getutxos. I don't want to deal with an emergency "0.10 must be released now!" and "everyone must upgrade now!"
 115 2014-08-17 01:43:05 <jgarzik> getutxos is easy to use insecurely
 116 2014-08-17 01:43:12 <jgarzik> and difficult to use securely
 117 2014-08-17 01:43:49 <gmaxwell> yea, I'm on the fence between non-ack and nak. For two reasons, one is additional untrusted data, the other is that btcd said they are disinclined to implement. If we're also looking at an upgrade firedrill then that pushes me towards NAK.
 118 2014-08-17 01:44:10 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I haven't seen anything RE upgrade firedrill
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 121 2014-08-17 01:44:42 <gmaxwell> well thats why I was trying to ask. This could be avoided by the initial version of litehouse having a configurable server list.
 122 2014-08-17 01:44:42 <jgarzik> so I don't have that worry
 123 2014-08-17 01:45:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, NODE_UTXOS means you don't have to worry about that?
 124 2014-08-17 01:45:11 <jgarzik> it gets advertised
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 128 2014-08-17 01:45:52 <gmaxwell> I know it does, but if only a few nodes on the network have it you may not learn about any of them.
 129 2014-08-17 01:46:31 <gmaxwell> and we'll get pressured to deploy 0.10 prematurely and the network will be pressured to widely deploy it prematurely, and we'll end up with yet another remote crasher bug as a result.
 130 2014-08-17 01:46:46 <jgarzik> I think anybody rolling out new NODE_xxx services has to deal with that
 131 2014-08-17 01:46:53 <jgarzik> nah, I haven't seen any pressure like that
 132 2014-08-17 01:48:24 <jgarzik> My worries are more about (a) untrusted data; even with "mempool" the users are full nodes expected to verify the data, (b) implementing services in bitcoind that ought to be in other layers (we are duplicating Insight), (c) easy to use securely, requires complexity to use securely,
 133 2014-08-17 01:48:36 fanquake has joined
 134 2014-08-17 01:48:37 <jgarzik> and notably (d) this P2P command was implemented long before services to use it
 135 2014-08-17 01:48:46 <jgarzik> thus somewhat speculative
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 137 2014-08-17 01:49:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we absolutely did suffer it with 0.8, not just the pressure to release but things like: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145349.0
 138 2014-08-17 01:49:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I was referring to getutxos specifically.
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 141 2014-08-17 01:51:28 <jgarzik> Honestly, the only reason why I don't NAK is because I think it is a bit of a special case.  We already index utxos, and will for the forseeable future.  The main danger in exporting that via P2P is IMO lazy "just check one node for an answer" implementations.
 142 2014-08-17 01:52:25 <gmaxwell> yes, its narrow enough that I think its safe wrt tying out hands wrt pruning or data structures, plus the service bit can go away.
 143 2014-08-17 01:52:41 <gmaxwell> It's wrong with respect to the security model. And btcd doesn't want to implement either.
 144 2014-08-17 01:53:03 <gmaxwell> But it's also very narrow and that means a lot. I also know what mike originally wanted and he did accomidate the design substantially.
 145 2014-08-17 01:53:11 <gmaxwell> (he wanted an arbritary free transaction lookup)
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 148 2014-08-17 01:57:20 <moa> "Actually running old versions can cause problems even if you don't think  you need any of the new features. Old versions just generally cause  problems for the network. It's best to stay up to date if you can." Mike Hearn, March 03 2013
 149 2014-08-17 01:57:43 <moa> On 12 March 2013, a Bitcoin miner running version 0.8.0 of the Bitcoin  software created a large block that was incompatible with earlier  versions of the Bitcoin software because of its size.
 150 2014-08-17 01:58:15 <moa> ... due to leveldb implementation
 151 2014-08-17 01:58:28 <BlueMatt> ehhh, whether that made sense depends entirely on context
 152 2014-08-17 01:59:05 <BlueMatt> and, iirc, the bloom stuff was before 0.8, so this is irrelevant to the discussion
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 154 2014-08-17 01:59:31 <moa> ok
 155 2014-08-17 01:59:49 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, adding a feature + pushing to upgrade is relevant
 156 2014-08-17 01:59:53 <jgarzik> but also to be expected
 157 2014-08-17 02:00:03 <BlueMatt> yes, but I dont think that quote was relevant
 158 2014-08-17 02:00:07 <jgarzik> people are cheerleaders for their features
 159 2014-08-17 02:00:08 <BlueMatt> but, yea, sure I get the issue here
 160 2014-08-17 02:02:30 <jgarzik> At some point it's a philosophical question (though, again, getutxos is a special case as mentioned).   Do we implement extra indices and services in bitcoind?  NODE_QUERY_ADDRESS is ok, if optional?  NODE_TRADE_STOCKS?
 161 2014-08-17 02:03:01 <jgarzik> I prefer the "bitcoin == IP, in a HTTP/TCP/IP analogy" model, which pushes services up.  Others disagree.
 162 2014-08-17 02:03:15 blast_ has joined
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 164 2014-08-17 02:03:47 <jgarzik> What is mainnet:  relaying transactions and blocks, or a bootstrap into myriad bitcoin-related services?
 165 2014-08-17 02:03:51 <BlueMatt> I prefer none of this be tied to bitcoind
 166 2014-08-17 02:04:00 <BlueMatt> no NODE_I_HAVE_OTHER_SERVICES_ON_OTHER_PORTS
 167 2014-08-17 02:04:10 <BlueMatt> no NODE_I_WILL_LET_YOU_LOOKUP_TXN
 168 2014-08-17 02:04:10 <BlueMatt> etc
 169 2014-08-17 02:04:30 <jgarzik> original Satoshi design was much broader
 170 2014-08-17 02:04:38 <BlueMatt> true, but...oh well
 171 2014-08-17 02:04:45 <jgarzik> included ebay-ish stuff, pubsub, trading, ...
 172 2014-08-17 02:05:04 <BlueMatt> yes, but bitcoin today is a bit different from the (early) satoshi days ;)
 173 2014-08-17 02:05:45 <BlueMatt> and I think keeping bitcoin core/the p2p network as minimal as possible is better
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 177 2014-08-17 02:09:22 <moa> yes minimal is good
 178 2014-08-17 02:10:53 <moa> where are the TCP HTTP inventors for btc is the question?
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 180 2014-08-17 02:11:26 <BlueMatt> ?????????
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 182 2014-08-17 02:12:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the reason I brought up the bloom filter stuff was because mike applied a lot of pressure to ship 0.8 and when it was out he applied a lot of pressure for people to deploy it. (and separately, he pressured mining pools to increase their block sizes).  I don't want a replay of that with getutxo. Fortunately we're doing a lot better with the service bit for it, so at least it can be disabled.
 183 2014-08-17 02:13:08 <BlueMatt> it was 0.8? for some reason I thought 0.7
 184 2014-08-17 02:13:14 <BlueMatt> ohh, no that was just the protocol version
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 189 2014-08-17 02:16:11 <petertodd> agorist000: best to email me
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 193 2014-08-17 02:18:35 <TheRelic> is it possible using a command in bitcoind to give a address coins in a -testnet ?
 194 2014-08-17 02:18:36 <ayansh> hi #bitcoin-dev, i am using RelayNodeClient.jar, *.relay.mattcorallo.com 8336 connection refused, it worked fine earlier. service is down?
 195 2014-08-17 02:18:47 <BlueMatt> probably, I'll look later
 196 2014-08-17 02:19:08 <TheRelic> or is there a way to find out how many confirmations a block has?
 197 2014-08-17 02:20:56 <dsnrk> blocks don't have confirmations really, they have a depth.
 198 2014-08-17 02:21:10 <BlueMatt> ayansh: fixed, though I'll look a bit later into the cause
 199 2014-08-17 02:22:17 <ayansh> BlueMatt:Thanks, it's working now.
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 202 2014-08-17 02:25:00 <TheRelic> right now, for a miner it requires 120 confirmations to get paid out, how do i change this in the src?
 203 2014-08-17 02:25:16 <dsnrk> altcoin development is off topic.
 204 2014-08-17 02:25:37 <dsnrk> if you can't find a simple variable, please don't try to make a currency.
 205 2014-08-17 02:25:40 <gmaxwell> TheRelic: the fact that newly generated coins can't be spent immediately is a requirement of the bitcoin protocol it cannot be changed.
 206 2014-08-17 02:25:53 <TheRelic> gmaxwell i'm working on a clone,
 207 2014-08-17 02:26:12 <TheRelic> i need to change the block confirmations for block generators to get paid out for testing purposes
 208 2014-08-17 02:26:17 <BlueMatt> in which case, see dsnrk's reply
 209 2014-08-17 02:26:21 <gmaxwell> TheRelic: please read http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf
 210 2014-08-17 02:26:43 <agorist000> petertodd, thanks, and where might I find your email address?
 211 2014-08-17 02:26:48 <gmaxwell> TheRelic: creating a cryptosystem (which a cryptocurrency is one) is a serious responsibility... you're asking the most basic possible parameter question.
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 224 2014-08-17 02:48:09 <ayansh> BlueMatt: I think issue is reproducible, connection is refused after telnet *.relay.mattcorallo.com 8336. i was sending standard error and standard output to /dev/null to avoid disk io.. couldn't corelate both.
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 231 2014-08-17 02:51:06 <ahmed_> anyone here know why bitcoind could keep crashing/
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 237 2014-08-17 02:58:25 <eberline> I need some help purchasing a coin and mining it. I am willing to pay bitcoin for this service. Someone message me please
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 240 2014-08-17 03:00:08 <jgarzik> eberline, way way off topic for this channel
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 245 2014-08-17 03:02:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, supreme NACK for utxo polling
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 249 2014-08-17 03:18:05 <gmaxwell> oh my. did this actually emit the txouts themselves before?
 250 2014-08-17 03:18:51 <sipa> ?
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 252 2014-08-17 03:22:18 <gmaxwell> You can use getutxo to use the blockchain like a DHT. E.g. query a key and get back the utxo payload.
 253 2014-08-17 03:22:30 <gmaxwell> I thought it originally just returned a bitmap.
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 255 2014-08-17 03:22:46 <sipa> no idea, haven't looked at the implementation
 256 2014-08-17 03:23:11 <sipa> hmm, i probably did at some point
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 258 2014-08-17 03:23:40 <sipa> i think it always returned the data
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 260 2014-08-17 03:25:00 <gmaxwell> This is bad because it means that it makes the utxo-set-as-a-file-trading-service attractive. :(
 261 2014-08-17 03:25:27 <sipa> hearn claimed that if amounts got incorportated in the sighash data, authenticated for regularlag hashflags
 262 2014-08-17 03:25:45 <sipa> which i agreed with it true, apart from spentness
 263 2014-08-17 03:26:29 <sipa> which means it just becomes a lookup service indeed, not of UTXOs but of TXOs, just one that is allowed to fail for spent ones
 264 2014-08-17 03:27:36 <gmaxwell> I am not understanding your line that begins with "hearn claimed"
 265 2014-08-17 03:27:43 <gmaxwell> did you lose a word or two?
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 268 2014-08-17 03:29:30 <gmaxwell> the other thing that changes vs the original is that it returns a height, which doesn't jive super well with some of the prior conversations about eliminating the height from the utxo set.
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 275 2014-08-17 03:32:48 <sipa> gmaxwell: if we included amounts in sighashes, and you had a spending transaction, the validity of claimed txins for it would be linked fo the validity of the spending transaction
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 279 2014-08-17 03:35:03 <gmaxwell> This is true. somewhat amusingly, however, is that absent this conversation if you'd asked me about adding amounts to signatures, I probably would have proposed a version that added amounts but left the scriptpubkeys out.
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 282 2014-08-17 03:35:30 <gmaxwell> and if you wanted the signature commitment validity property, that couldn't be done.
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 286 2014-08-17 03:38:50 <sipa> indeed
 287 2014-08-17 03:39:12 <sipa> and that still only authenticates the tzo content, not its spentness
 288 2014-08-17 03:39:17 <sipa> txo
 289 2014-08-17 03:39:59 <sipa> perhaps those concerns should be separated, as they have different security properties and use cases
 290 2014-08-17 03:40:28 <gmaxwell> handing someone the whole input transaction authenticates the txout content as well as its value, but not the spentness.
 291 2014-08-17 03:41:34 <gmaxwell> I emailed mike and asked if the txout content could be omitted; but I realize now after what you were saying the answer was probably no, because he's probably fetching it so he can check the signature, even more than just checking for spentness.
 292 2014-08-17 03:42:17 <gmaxwell> :( I think I'm going to have to vigorously oppose this. We can't have general nodes be turning into file servers.
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 295 2014-08-17 03:43:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the fundamental idea behind lighthouse is broken
 296 2014-08-17 03:43:57 <sipa> his pledge files could cobtain the full input transactions
 297 2014-08-17 03:44:16 <sipa> which means you'd only need to query whether their output still exists
 298 2014-08-17 03:44:18 <phantomcircuit> i cant understand why he even thinks it's something that's possible
 299 2014-08-17 03:45:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: right point. Hopefully the email response will be positive then.
 300 2014-08-17 03:45:33 <phantomcircuit> project has 10% funding, needs 100% to get funds, borrows remaining 90%, pays to itself, repays lender 95%, keeps 5%
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 302 2014-08-17 03:45:50 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it might be ill-advised, but tis-not-mine-to-reason-why if people want to try funding things that way, it's not my place to get in their way.
 303 2014-08-17 03:46:06 <sipa> ... but that may mean that lighthouse may need to do an intermediary transaction, just to bring the crediting transaction in scope
 304 2014-08-17 03:46:24 <phantomcircuit> modifying the protocol to support a brilliant improvement is one thing
 305 2014-08-17 03:46:38 <phantomcircuit> modifying the protocol to support something that is entirely pointless is another
 306 2014-08-17 03:46:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm not following the need for an intermediary transaction.
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 308 2014-08-17 03:47:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: how would lighthouse now about the crediting transaction?
 309 2014-08-17 03:47:10 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: jeff also raised the concern of making protocol changes for things where the usecase was non-existant.
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 311 2014-08-17 03:47:27 <sipa> hmm, maybe it makes the crediting tx too
 312 2014-08-17 03:47:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: they got the txid:vout from someplace. Presumably it created the crediting transaction or the user handed it to them.
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 314 2014-08-17 03:48:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: i do like separating the spentness bitvector and txo lookup as separate problems
 315 2014-08-17 03:48:28 <sipa> makes it clear that the spentness is totally unauthenticatable
 316 2014-08-17 03:48:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: actually I think it has to create it. otherwise you're asking users to export private keys to lighthouse so it can sign, and in theory most wallets should no longer support privkey export because they're type-2 hd wallets.
 317 2014-08-17 03:49:34 <sipa> and arguments about txo content authentication can't be used to argue anything about the bit vector
 318 2014-08-17 03:49:58 <gmaxwell> right they're seperate things. spentness is inherently ephemeral too.
 319 2014-08-17 03:50:09 <gmaxwell> I'd really thought this was only spentness before. :(
 320 2014-08-17 03:50:24 <sipa> and it seems that (perhaps with inconvenience to the software) lighthouse can be adapted to only care about spentness
 321 2014-08-17 03:50:48 <sipa> i wonder about the other use cases brought up
 322 2014-08-17 03:51:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: spentness is useful for coinjoins.
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 325 2014-08-17 03:51:40 <gmaxwell> but you don't need the txouts, you can just ask the person to provide you with the transactions.
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 333 2014-08-17 04:01:02 <jgarzik> In fairness, that too is a philosophical point.  I think Hearn grumping in public months back "core dev has ground to a halt" was not really addressing the flow of commits into the repo, but more the flow of changes into the protocol.  There is a balance between protecting the current setup, and introducing new and potentially destabilizing features.  Not everything immediately has a use case, but is a good idea.  Makes life difficult to judge
 334 2014-08-17 04:01:02 <jgarzik>  ;p
 335 2014-08-17 04:03:22 <jgarzik> On one hand, several $billion of value must be preserved.  On the other hand, surely we want bitcoin to reach "the masses" and grow the userbase substantially.  (And even that is contentious, to the crowd who think of bitcoin purely as a commodity, with a bunch of sillyheads trying to use it for everyday payments)
 336 2014-08-17 04:04:12 <jgarzik> ie. "as long as bitcoin is $500, I could care less how many users it has"
 337 2014-08-17 04:05:13 <jgarzik> I think we are still young in bitcoin's lifetime, and definitely need room to experiment... but not everything needs to be done in bitcoind.  Plenty of room to experiment outside the core protocol.
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 339 2014-08-17 04:08:40 <sipa> for this particular case, i believe bitcoind is the right place, as replicating it anywhere else would be inefficient and duplication of effort
 340 2014-08-17 04:08:46 <jgarzik> Caveat:  It sure is easier to deploy something if you simply add it to bitcoind.
 341 2014-08-17 04:09:05 <sipa> however, just admit that this is trusted data and query it from a trusted instance
 342 2014-08-17 04:09:17 <sipa> i.e., not the p2p protocol offered to everyone
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 344 2014-08-17 04:09:41 <jgarzik> Indeed.  <jgarzik> Honestly, the only reason why I don't NAK is because I think it is a bit of a special case.  We already index utxos, and will for the forseeable future.
 345 2014-08-17 04:10:08 <sipa> actually, we already have an roc that does exactly this
 346 2014-08-17 04:10:12 <sipa> *rpc
 347 2014-08-17 04:10:12 <jgarzik> yep
 348 2014-08-17 04:10:35 <jgarzik> sipa, then we circle back "<hearn> you shouldn't need a full node"
 349 2014-08-17 04:10:43 <jgarzik> *back to
 350 2014-08-17 04:11:05 <sipa> indeed you shouldn't
 351 2014-08-17 04:11:42 <jgarzik> Related:  This is why my next addition to the unauthenticated HTTP REST interface was going to be a mimic-RPC getutxo call.
 352 2014-08-17 04:11:43 <sipa> if nodes lying to you is not "really" a problem then there shouldn't be any disadvantage in picking a specific service to provide it
 353 2014-08-17 04:11:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you need to be able to trust to a certain extent that at least 1 of a group of full nodes aren't lying to you
 354 2014-08-17 04:12:28 <sipa> it is centralizing, yes, which is in itself mildly bad, but usually in bitcoin we want decentralization because it adds trustlessness; here, it does not at all
 355 2014-08-17 04:12:54 ClarusCogitatio has joined
 356 2014-08-17 04:13:25 <jgarzik> If lighthouse is going to query $n P2P nodes via 'getutxos', seems like you could make the same query to N proxies-to-bitcoind.
 357 2014-08-17 04:13:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: interesting, the floating fees use case with spv nodes measuring fees for a while is the complete opposite and only needs the txo data and not the spentness
 358 2014-08-17 04:13:40 <jgarzik> but hey, I do get the integration argument
 359 2014-08-17 04:14:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: making it clear that the usefulness of one is not an argument for a protocol that serves the other
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 362 2014-08-17 04:20:45 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, the only reason i can see to include getutxo would be to effectively make a bunch of unwilling but too lazy to remove it participants for his scheme
 363 2014-08-17 04:21:00 <phantomcircuit> which is itself fundamentally flaws
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 367 2014-08-17 04:25:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: re: utxo as dht, remember my comment about how prefix lookup to add privacy to getutxos would make that really trivial by bruteforcing knoen prefixes aa yoir way of storing filea
 368 2014-08-17 04:25:23 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, wat
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 371 2014-08-17 04:25:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: getutxos also incentivizes using unspendable outputs for timestamping too
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 373 2014-08-17 04:26:49 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: basically if i want to store a file and make ot discoverable i cam bruteforce a series of n-bit prefixes and create globally unique utxos, then put my data in them
 374 2014-08-17 04:27:06 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: really nice for me, because all npdes will have it
 375 2014-08-17 04:28:20 <petertodd> in the timestamping case, something like opentimestamps would create an unspendable output, same the txid:n, and then to look it up later just use getutxo. using op_return i cant as easily do the verificstion lookup later
 376 2014-08-17 04:29:17 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: anyway, the whole need for getutxos in lighthouse is bogus frankly; just create the txo for your pledge and have the lightjouse app use bloom filters to track spends
 377 2014-08-17 04:29:20 <sipa> i'd call it a replicated hashtable, not a distributed one
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 379 2014-08-17 04:29:47 <petertodd> sipa: massively inefficientlu replicated hashtable
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 393 2014-08-17 04:48:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we certantly do need to get over this idea that everything has to go into a single p2p protocol.
 394 2014-08-17 04:49:18 <gmaxwell> wrt efficiency, it could work just as well as an proxy on another port that can call getutxo.
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 408 2014-08-17 05:07:06 <phantomcircuit> git head is broken
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 412 2014-08-17 05:08:44 <phantomcircuit> or maybe i just had bad luck
 413 2014-08-17 05:09:28 <wumpus>  Do we implement extra indices and services in bitcoind? <- I'd say no
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 416 2014-08-17 05:09:44 <phantomcircuit> sigh
 417 2014-08-17 05:09:59 <phantomcircuit> some random russian vps provider pushing altcoin blocks on the bitcoin port
 418 2014-08-17 05:10:14 <wumpus> sigh indeed
 419 2014-08-17 05:10:20 <gmaxwell> are we correctly banning right away on those?
 420 2014-08-17 05:10:53 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, "is stalling block download, disconnecting"
 421 2014-08-17 05:10:56 <phantomcircuit> so close enough
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 423 2014-08-17 05:11:15 <dsnrk> does the altcoin use our genesis block as well?
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 425 2014-08-17 05:11:38 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, nope
 426 2014-08-17 05:11:56 <phantomcircuit> orphans x 25
 427 2014-08-17 05:12:02 <dsnrk> they probably changed the PoW too.
 428 2014-08-17 05:12:20 <gmaxwell> hm. actually that sounds like it's probably an attack to cause lots of orphan storage, no?
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 431 2014-08-17 05:16:58 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, maybe
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 442 2014-08-17 05:18:44 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ip in pm
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 446 2014-08-17 05:21:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, should probably not be saving orphan blocks to disk
 447 2014-08-17 05:21:30 <gmaxwell> we don't.
 448 2014-08-17 05:21:41 <gmaxwell> we do keep them in memory though, but we have a limit now.
 449 2014-08-17 05:22:13 <gmaxwell> though you can oom older bitcoin versions this way.
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 451 2014-08-17 05:24:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, how much older?
 452 2014-08-17 05:24:49 <TheRelic> does anyone have a dev enviroment setup that could compile a cloned LiteCoin windows QT wallet?
 453 2014-08-17 05:26:21 <Luke-Jr> TheRelic: this is #bitcoin-dev
 454 2014-08-17 05:27:11 <TheRelic> yes, yes it is
 455 2014-08-17 05:27:31 <wumpus> for setting up a gitian environment see  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/gitian-building.md  , but indeed this is way off topic
 456 2014-08-17 05:28:05 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: pre 0.9.2
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 462 2014-08-17 05:32:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, during initial sync there seems to be a lot of orphans
 463 2014-08-17 05:32:11 <wumpus> that's well-known
 464 2014-08-17 05:32:22 <phantomcircuit> it's from new blocks being broadcast right?
 465 2014-08-17 05:32:25 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes, that happens when a peer advertises a new block to you and you start pulling backwards trying to connect.
 466 2014-08-17 05:32:27 <phantomcircuit> or is it something else
 467 2014-08-17 05:32:30 <gmaxwell> headers first fixes that.
 468 2014-08-17 05:32:34 <gmaxwell> (among other things)
 469 2014-08-17 05:32:34 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: blocks downloads out of order, usually
 470 2014-08-17 05:33:37 <phantomcircuit> if you connect to a disconnected node they download in order
 471 2014-08-17 05:33:47 <wumpus> if it was just the new blocks it wouldn't be much of a problem, they happen rarely
 472 2014-08-17 05:34:20 <wumpus> but during sync you'll get floods of orphans, luckily that's capped now
 473 2014-08-17 05:34:43 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, no i think gmaxwell is right
 474 2014-08-17 05:34:52 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: I'm not arguing with him?
 475 2014-08-17 05:34:55 <phantomcircuit> you get 1 new block and it changes what the head looks like
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 477 2014-08-17 05:35:39 <wumpus> and that results in the node getting blocks out of order, hence resulting in orphans being stored
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 479 2014-08-17 05:36:49 <phantomcircuit> oh i see, confusion of language
 480 2014-08-17 05:36:57 <phantomcircuit> that's not what i'd consider to be "usual"
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 482 2014-08-17 05:37:36 <wumpus> it is usual though, it happens almost any time someone syncs from the network
 483 2014-08-17 05:38:47 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4468  makes the block sync from the network much better
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 486 2014-08-17 05:44:53 <wumpus> unfortunately we can't merge it because the pull tester can't handle the new behaviour without major changes / a rewrite
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 514 2014-08-17 06:37:34 <dsnrk> window 27
 515 2014-08-17 06:37:42 * dsnrk flips a desk
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 577 2014-08-17 08:27:25 <Luke-Jr> in a hash table, with random keys, shouldn't it get more than 50% of the slots with 1 item before 40% of slots have multiple items? :/
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 582 2014-08-17 08:33:11 <sipa> bad hash function?
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 586 2014-08-17 08:41:14 <wumpus> yes, that's what you'd expect
 587 2014-08-17 08:43:56 <Luke-Jr> using (part of) the txid as a key..
 588 2014-08-17 08:44:05 * Luke-Jr wonders if anyone's actually been grinding txids ever
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 599 2014-08-17 08:56:31 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what is the fill factor?
 600 2014-08-17 08:56:41 <sipa> oh, and do elements get deleted?
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 603 2014-08-17 09:00:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 33942537 unique keys filling 50% of total slots, 40% of which have multiple items
 604 2014-08-17 09:00:07 <Luke-Jr> no deleting
 605 2014-08-17 09:00:23 <wumpus> what do you use as hash function?
 606 2014-08-17 09:00:37 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's just the txid, so sha256d(txdata)
 607 2014-08-17 09:02:26 <wumpus> so you basically use the lower significant digits of the sha256 result to determine the slot number?
 608 2014-08-17 09:02:51 <Luke-Jr> right
 609 2014-08-17 09:05:54 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what is the average number of entries per bucket?
 610 2014-08-17 09:06:54 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I don't have a simple way of measuring that at the moment :/
 611 2014-08-17 09:07:11 <Luke-Jr> well actually
 612 2014-08-17 09:07:34 <Luke-Jr> average I guess I can calculate easily
 613 2014-08-17 09:07:46 <Luke-Jr> wait, not even then, since I only know 2+ vs 1 vs 0
 614 2014-08-17 09:08:12 <sipa> it's just the number of elements divided by the number of buckets...
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 616 2014-08-17 09:08:47 <Luke-Jr> right, which leads me to thinking that 40% might not be accurate
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 618 2014-08-17 09:09:16 <Luke-Jr> sipa: do you want to count the empty buckets?
 619 2014-08-17 09:09:41 <Luke-Jr> 0.70 if so
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 621 2014-08-17 09:09:59 <Luke-Jr> 1.4 if not
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 629 2014-08-17 09:26:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that would be weird... having exactly 2 entries for every used bucket, and none elsewhere?
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 631 2014-08-17 09:27:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I doubt that's the distribution, but I don't have a way to analyze that detail yet
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 633 2014-08-17 09:28:17 <Luke-Jr> I should have dumped the result to disk :x
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 635 2014-08-17 09:28:27 <Luke-Jr> took 28 minutes to generate the indexes
 636 2014-08-17 09:30:06 <Luke-Jr> end result was 78% full, with about 2 per used slot avg
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 638 2014-08-17 09:31:26 <gmaxwell> what is the number of buckets?
 639 2014-08-17 09:31:33 <Luke-Jr> 2^28
 640 2014-08-17 09:31:43 <gmaxwell> and you're using 28 bits of the txid?
 641 2014-08-17 09:31:46 <Luke-Jr> right
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 644 2014-08-17 09:32:59 <sipa> and how many entries?
 645 2014-08-17 09:33:40 <sipa> ;;calc 33942537 / 2**28
 646 2014-08-17 09:33:40 <gribble> 0.126445803791
 647 2014-08-17 09:33:41 <Luke-Jr> 52808210 primary + 51668498 secondary = 1.0447671e8 total
 648 2014-08-17 09:34:44 <sipa> ;;calc 104476710 / 2**28
 649 2014-08-17 09:34:44 <gribble> 0.389206074178
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 655 2014-08-17 09:51:39 <Luke-Jr> hm. structs are always padded out to full bytes even when they're attribute packed, aren't they? >_<
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 667 2014-08-17 10:14:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: to full bytes?
 668 2014-08-17 10:14:41 <Luke-Jr> right
 669 2014-08-17 10:14:58 <Luke-Jr> ie, a 5-bit struct gets padded to 8 bits
 670 2014-08-17 10:15:30 <Luke-Jr> struct { int a : 5; }
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 672 2014-08-17 10:18:14 <sipa> pretty sure, yes
 673 2014-08-17 10:19:02 <sipa> only ints can get bitpacked, i suppose
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 703 2014-08-17 10:47:32 <Luke-Jr> fwiw, http://codepad.org/C5gk67C0
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 734 2014-08-17 11:52:46 <TheRelic> are there any good tutorials/guides on how to take the bitcoin github and clone it?
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 736 2014-08-17 11:54:34 <gmaxwell> type git clone https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
 737 2014-08-17 11:54:36 <gmaxwell> tada
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 757 2014-08-17 12:33:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: thoughts on using https://github.com/luke-jr/libbase58 in Bitcoin Core?
 758 2014-08-17 12:33:44 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I
 759 2014-08-17 12:33:49 <wumpus> 'd rather not add any dependencies
 760 2014-08-17 12:34:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: as a subtree?
 761 2014-08-17 12:34:10 <sipa> for... 20 lines of code?
 762 2014-08-17 12:34:38 <wumpus> possible, but personally I don't see what this is about -- why do we need high-performance base58 encoding/decoding in bitcoin core?
 763 2014-08-17 12:34:59 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: maybe we don't, I just thought it'd be nice to have a common library differnt projects can all use
 764 2014-08-17 12:35:02 <wumpus> why optimize the base58 decoding/encoding and not say, the utxo caching, or the memory usage, or tons of other things
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 766 2014-08-17 12:35:30 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: the goal here is modularity and common reusable/sharable code, not optimisation
 767 2014-08-17 12:35:44 <sipa> well i understand reusability, but for this amount of code i just don't care
 768 2014-08-17 12:36:45 <wumpus> yes, reusability is a better reason
 769 2014-08-17 12:37:47 <Luke-Jr> so I won't be wasting my time to make a BCCore PR to subtree it? ;)
 770 2014-08-17 12:38:22 <wumpus> but it will probably increase build times, and make the build process more complicated...
 771 2014-08-17 12:40:47 <Luke-Jr> brb
 772 2014-08-17 12:41:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: independent of the discussion for using that code or not, have you benchmarked both?
 773 2014-08-17 12:42:15 <sipa> using 32-bit integers to store the decoded binary results is likely a few times faster than using uint8_t's
 774 2014-08-17 12:42:26 <sipa> but i wonder how much it matters for address-sized data
 775 2014-08-17 12:43:05 <gmaxwell> we could add a comment to the base58 implementation in the refernece to refer people to your library at least. I hope to never again see another hideous bignum library using base58 implementation. :P
 776 2014-08-17 12:43:09 <sipa> (also, i don't think we have any case when base58 performance matters, but i'm interested to know...)
 777 2014-08-17 12:44:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think it only never matters for us because json related overhead swamps it, otherwise it would probably show up in some of the wallet RPCs. :)
 778 2014-08-17 12:45:35 <wumpus> I still have my doubts, the wallet RPCs are inefficient enough for lots of other things to dominate
 779 2014-08-17 12:45:41 <wumpus> then again, show me profiling results and I'm convinced
 780 2014-08-17 12:46:02 <sipa> assuming the profiling results are convincing, i hope? :)
 781 2014-08-17 12:46:07 <wumpus> heh
 782 2014-08-17 12:46:19 <gmaxwell> haha. I wouldn't waste my time, I don't expect it to be interesting for performance.
 783 2014-08-17 12:47:18 <gmaxwell> It's interesting because its more reusable than our code, so I think people should be pointed to it at least. (I know at least two people who have done brute force conversions of the code in bitcoin core to C)
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 786 2014-08-17 12:47:41 <wumpus> agreed it's a good idea to point people at a reusable library when they need base58 functionality
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 788 2014-08-17 12:47:54 <extor> It makes me sad to think of all the spare time I had where I could have followed the path of knowledge, and accomplished some of what this guy did. And it was and is all out there. No formal classes either: http://yurichev.com/
 789 2014-08-17 12:47:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: before or after we switched from bignums?
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 791 2014-08-17 12:48:41 <sipa> extor: not here
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 796 2014-08-17 12:53:04 <JohnKenney> a reusable base58 library would be nice for other projects
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 798 2014-08-17 12:55:01 <sipa> there are several already, depending on the language
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 800 2014-08-17 12:58:41 <wumpus> they already exist, that's luke-jr's point above
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 810 2014-08-17 13:14:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: after. before people would look at it and just reimplement the same thing using bignums.
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 812 2014-08-17 13:16:02 <sipa> eh?
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 855 2014-08-17 14:42:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: libbase58 does use uint32s for decoding; the author of the encoding code claims it's nearly 2x faster than the current BCCore encoder
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 857 2014-08-17 14:44:05 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that wouldn't surprise me
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 890 2014-08-17 15:35:32 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, it's a good thing addresses are not found in the bitcoin protocol...
 891 2014-08-17 15:35:56 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ?
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 894 2014-08-17 15:38:15 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, Because then we would care more about the speed of base58 encode/decode
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 896 2014-08-17 15:38:45 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'm not sure why everyone keeps talking about performance of base58
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 898 2014-08-17 15:39:31 <sipa> well i just asked about it out of interest - and you answered :)
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 904 2014-08-17 15:46:00 <jgarzik> It would be nice to have a base58 implementation that did not require any external libraries like bignum.
 905 2014-08-17 15:46:16 <jgarzik> Hopefully it s MIT/X11 licensed, and not immediately swallowed into a GPL project and locked away from wider use.
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 907 2014-08-17 15:52:43 <sipa> jgarzik: uhm...
 908 2014-08-17 15:53:11 <sipa> neither luke's library, or the current bitcoin core base58 implementation use bignums
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 910 2014-08-17 15:55:51 <jgarzik> Oh, nifty.  I missed b58be132c994b6f9b25cb4a702186ef96104953f
 911 2014-08-17 15:56:22 <sipa> in fact, bitcoin core uses no bignums at all anymore
 912 2014-08-17 15:56:30 <sipa> except in the scriotnum unit tests...
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 917 2014-08-17 16:00:27 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm curious to see what binary size reduction switching to univalue for our json needs will bring...
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 919 2014-08-17 16:01:00 <jgarzik> sipa, I have a local tree with the complete conversion... just need to fix some failing tests
 920 2014-08-17 16:01:15 <jgarzik> sipa, google archive of #bitcoin-dev has numbers
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 943 2014-08-17 16:40:51 <tommygunner> feels like it is time for a new bootstrap.dat.torrent
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 999 2014-08-17 17:39:51 <michagogo> tommygunner: there is a new one being tested
1000 2014-08-17 17:40:39 <michagogo> jgarzik: any idea when you'll post it?
1001 2014-08-17 17:41:47 <tommygunner> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dq3ph/worth_the_wait/cjs426i
1002 2014-08-17 17:42:40 <michagogo> tommygunner: I don't know what that is
1003 2014-08-17 17:42:52 <michagogo> But if you have the old one, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.msg8120161#msg8120161
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1015 2014-08-17 17:54:21 <tommygunner> thx michagogo, seeding now
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1018 2014-08-17 17:57:40 <jgarzik> michagogo, Pretty time limited these days...  could you be talked into making an updated .torrent file, with same info hash, with the trackers suggested on the thread?
1019 2014-08-17 17:57:56 <michagogo> jgarzik: All of them?
1020 2014-08-17 17:57:56 <jgarzik> michagogo, that's the last blocker before announce
1021 2014-08-17 17:58:00 <michagogo> I could *try*
1022 2014-08-17 17:58:15 <jgarzik> michagogo, several current ones needed to be removed
1023 2014-08-17 17:58:25 <jgarzik> ie. in general addressing community complaints RE tracker list
1024 2014-08-17 17:58:40 <michagogo> jgarzik: only 1, as far as I can tell
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1026 2014-08-17 17:58:48 <michagogo> The box I have seeding them is only reporting ccc as down
1027 2014-08-17 17:58:49 <jgarzik> michagogo, "istole.it" is not the best reputation for example :)
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1029 2014-08-17 17:58:56 <michagogo> ah
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1031 2014-08-17 17:59:05 <michagogo> aha: http://torrenteditor.com/
1032 2014-08-17 17:59:13 <jgarzik> indeed, ccc needs to be removed
1033 2014-08-17 17:59:26 <jgarzik> bitcointalk.org thread has several suggested replacements
1034 2014-08-17 17:59:32 <jgarzik> and having at least one http:// would benice
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1036 2014-08-17 18:00:05 <michagogo> Hm, this torrenteditor.com thing is cool
1037 2014-08-17 18:00:11 justusranvier has joined
1038 2014-08-17 18:00:24 <michagogo> I plugged the torrent URL in, and it went and checked the trackers
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1040 2014-08-17 18:00:34 <michagogo> Highlighted ccc in red
1041 2014-08-17 18:00:41 <michagogo> But also istole.it for some reason
1042 2014-08-17 18:00:46 <michagogo> says "no reply"
1043 2014-08-17 18:01:26 <michagogo> jgarzik: so which suggestions do you want to take?
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1045 2014-08-17 18:02:47 <gmaxwell> I advise taking the good suggestions.
1046 2014-08-17 18:03:06 <michagogo> gmaxwell: oh, thanks for that. Wouldn't have thought to do that ;-)
1047 2014-08-17 18:03:12 <jgarzik> michagogo, +2 from https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.msg8126921#msg8126921 and top ~2-3 from https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.msg8133484#msg8133484 ?
1048 2014-08-17 18:03:32 <jgarzik> We don't need a ton of trackers, just a good mix.
1049 2014-08-17 18:04:20 <michagogo> Are HB okay with their tracker being used? I think it's used for downloading of items from bundles over BT
1050 2014-08-17 18:04:27 erasmospunk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1051 2014-08-17 18:04:34 <michagogo> I don't know if they intend for their tracker to be used openly like that...
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1053 2014-08-17 18:04:40 <jgarzik> michagogo, "if there is any doubt, there is no doubt."  skip it.
1054 2014-08-17 18:06:16 <michagogo> #2 and #3 on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.msg8133484#msg8133484 are already on there
1055 2014-08-17 18:11:10 <michagogo> I just tweeted at the HB guys and asked in #nyaatorrents on rizon if they're okay with it
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1057 2014-08-17 18:12:21 <tommygunner> udp://tracker.token.ro:80
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1060 2014-08-17 18:13:07 <michagogo> Can't tell what ex.ua is
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1062 2014-08-17 18:13:18 <sea> Hello, all! Is this where I should be to talk about the bitcoin protocol?
1063 2014-08-17 18:13:30 <michagogo> coppersurfer.tk does seem to be an open tracker, but idk if we should use it
1064 2014-08-17 18:13:36 <michagogo> it's a .tk, which is not a real domain
1065 2014-08-17 18:13:55 <michagogo> Idk, maybe it's fine, but I tend not to trust .tks so much
1066 2014-08-17 18:14:07 <michagogo> jgarzik: what do you think?
1067 2014-08-17 18:14:10 <tommygunner> michagogo: http://eddie4.nl
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1073 2014-08-17 18:15:46 <jgarzik> michagogo, RE which?
1074 2014-08-17 18:15:50 <michagogo> nyaa just told me not to use them
1075 2014-08-17 18:15:55 <michagogo> jgarzik: coppersurfer.tk
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1078 2014-08-17 18:18:58 <michagogo> Looks like we have a greenlight for http://bttracker.crunchbanglinux.org:6969/announce, udp://tracker.leechers-paradise.org:6969/announce, and udp://tracker.glotorrents.com:6969/announce
1079 2014-08-17 18:19:09 <michagogo> (in terms of them being open)
1080 2014-08-17 18:19:38 <jgarzik> michagogo, +1 coppersurfer
1081 2014-08-17 18:19:44 <michagogo> Okay, I'll put it in
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1083 2014-08-17 18:20:03 <sea> What time will the protocol experts be online?
1084 2014-08-17 18:20:23 <michagogo> Got 6 so far, plus humblebundle if they answer my tweet
1085 2014-08-17 18:20:39 <michagogo> (they're http, so that's nice if they're okay with it)
1086 2014-08-17 18:21:48 <tommygunner> http://www.ipv6tracker.org
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1088 2014-08-17 18:23:29 <michagogo> Do we want to include ipv6-only ones?
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1094 2014-08-17 18:25:09 <jgarzik> michagogo, I prefer dual stack
1095 2014-08-17 18:25:17 <michagogo> +1
1096 2014-08-17 18:25:27 <michagogo> (though I don't know if all of those trackers are dual-stack...)
1097 2014-08-17 18:26:00 <michagogo> looks like tracker.openbittorrent.com isn't
1098 2014-08-17 18:26:12 <michagogo> same with tracker.publicbt.com
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1101 2014-08-17 18:26:37 <jgarzik> michagogo, as long as some are (ideally at least 1 udp and 1 http)
1102 2014-08-17 18:26:56 <michagogo> actually
1103 2014-08-17 18:27:08 <michagogo> from the ones I have right now it looks like only udp://tracker.glotorrents.com:6969/announce is
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1105 2014-08-17 18:27:18 <michagogo> at least, that's the only one with AAAA records
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1107 2014-08-17 18:29:35 <tommygunner> http://exodus.desync.com:6969/announce
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1111 2014-08-17 18:32:33 <michagogo> Ah
1112 2014-08-17 18:32:38 <michagogo> Looks like that's dual-stack
1113 2014-08-17 18:32:54 <michagogo> And udp://open.demonii.com:1337/announce is udp dual-stack
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1115 2014-08-17 18:34:12 <michagogo> gah
1116 2014-08-17 18:34:18 <michagogo> accidentally clicked the back button
1117 2014-08-17 18:34:25 <michagogo> Lost the list :-/
1118 2014-08-17 18:35:01 <michagogo> Okay, this torrent editor site is annoying
1119 2014-08-17 18:35:44 <jgarzik> chuckle
1120 2014-08-17 18:36:10 <michagogo> g2g for a bit, sorry
1121 2014-08-17 18:36:16 * jgarzik tends to fear any such editor sites, wondering if they poop advertisements (or worse) into the .torrent without telling you
1122 2014-08-17 18:36:35 <michagogo> jgarzik: I assume we'd check it first...
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1153 2014-08-17 18:57:32 <tommygunner> jgarzik michagogo: https://code.google.com/p/bittorrent-tracker-editor/downloads/list
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1277 2014-08-17 22:00:02 <dgenr8> mr_burdell: around?
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1302 2014-08-17 22:29:54 <hearn> sipa: congrats :)
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1339 2014-08-17 23:16:56 <drazisil> Can someone point to to an updated mob replacement tutorial?
1340 2014-08-17 23:16:59 <drazisil>        EntityRegistry.removeSpawn(EntitySquid.class, EnumCreatureType.waterCreature, BiomeGenBase.river, BiomeGenBase.swampland, BiomeGenBase.ocean, BiomeGenBase.deepOcean, BiomeGenBase.beach);
1341 2014-08-17 23:16:59 <drazisil>         EntityRegistry.addSpawn(EntitySquidBreedable.class, 10, 4, 4, EnumCreatureType.waterCreature, BiomeGenBase.swampland, BiomeGenBase.ocean, BiomeGenBase.deepOcean, BiomeGenBase.beach);
1342 2014-08-17 23:17:05 <drazisil> er.
1343 2014-08-17 23:17:15 <drazisil> Anyway, code isn't working
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1348 2014-08-17 23:24:55 <drazisil> And I'm in completly the  wrong channel *hides*
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1350 2014-08-17 23:28:55 <TheRelic> does  a cold storage wallet need to sync when you are about to open it and send some btc from it?
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1361 2014-08-17 23:43:43 <Adlai> TheRelic: in order to sign a transaction spending cold storage funds, no... but those funds could have already been spent (if for example the cold storage wallet contains multiple utxos), so scanning for spends could help
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