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   5 2014-08-19 00:03:07 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you may be interested in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4723
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   8 2014-08-19 00:08:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, "the set of outbound connections uniquely identifies a client"
   9 2014-08-19 00:08:21 <phantomcircuit> wat?
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  11 2014-08-19 00:09:07 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the attack goes like this: they spam your IP all over the network in addr messages so that all the nodes stop forwarding it.
  12 2014-08-19 00:09:28 <gmaxwell> The they reconnect, and nodes that advertise your IP are very likely directly connected to you.
  13 2014-08-19 00:09:50 <gmaxwell> If those same 8 nodes also are the first to advertise a transaction, it's probably yours.
  14 2014-08-19 00:10:07 <gmaxwell> I think rotation is not a good solution to this, but we should have rotation regardless.
  15 2014-08-19 00:10:40 <gmaxwell> But we need rotation to not introduce new, easily and profitably exploited weaknesses.
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  19 2014-08-19 00:12:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah i dont see how rotation helps there unless it's done at an unreasonable rate
  20 2014-08-19 00:15:19 <gmaxwell> well address broadcasts are relatively infrequent so maybe that helps.
  21 2014-08-19 00:15:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the real issue there is that nodes are effectively leaking who they are connected to
  22 2014-08-19 00:15:47 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, except you can trigger the addr broadcast with getaddr
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  24 2014-08-19 00:16:14 <phantomcircuit> so to prevent that you would need to be rotating peers faster than the adversary can connect
  25 2014-08-19 00:16:18 <phantomcircuit> which would be ridiculous
  26 2014-08-19 00:16:49 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no because you can't trigger someone to send their address to someone else.
  27 2014-08-19 00:18:33 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm
  28 2014-08-19 00:18:42 <gmaxwell> e.g. I can getaddr you to find out what peers you know about, but if I'm connected to you I don't send an updated addr message but per once a day, so you're just going to get the same info over and over again.
  29 2014-08-19 00:22:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no but i can push new addr messages to you which will rotate the vvNew values out
  30 2014-08-19 00:22:56 <gmaxwell> Yes sure, but the victim still won't advertise himself but once per day.
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  32 2014-08-19 00:23:26 <gmaxwell> so what will happen is once a day you'll learn his peers, bit N minutes later he'll have differen ones.
  33 2014-08-19 00:26:11 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, when you connect to a peer your address gets put into addrman and marked as Good
  34 2014-08-19 00:26:55 <phantomcircuit> so it should be sufficient to simply rotate the other entries since the Good entries dont get rotated
  35 2014-08-19 00:27:13 <phantomcircuit> and each getaddr returns a different random set of peers
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  37 2014-08-19 00:28:30 <phantomcircuit> oh i see
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  39 2014-08-19 00:28:33 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: It doesn't. You only ... right.
  40 2014-08-19 00:28:36 <phantomcircuit> it's in the handling of the addr message
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  45 2014-08-19 00:30:37 <phantomcircuit> hmm
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  48 2014-08-19 00:34:04 <phantomcircuit> sigh
  49 2014-08-19 00:34:05 <phantomcircuit> Storage server temporarily offline
  50 2014-08-19 00:34:08 <phantomcircuit> damn it github
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 101 2014-08-19 01:19:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the merged mining spec doesn't make a lot of sense to me
 102 2014-08-19 01:20:09 <phantomcircuit> the auxpow block contains Coinbase transaction that is in the parent block, linking the AuxPOW block to its parent block
 103 2014-08-19 01:20:27 <phantomcircuit> but the coinbase txn also contains the hash of the auxpow header
 104 2014-08-19 01:20:32 <phantomcircuit> which would appear to be circular
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 106 2014-08-19 01:21:21 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: um, no it doesn't.
 107 2014-08-19 01:21:48 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, to which one?
 108 2014-08-19 01:21:58 Sauvin has joined
 109 2014-08-19 01:22:07 <Luke-Jr> the coinbase only has a merkle root of secondary chain block headers
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 114 2014-08-19 01:33:16 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merged_mining_specification#Merged_mining_coinbase
 115 2014-08-19 01:33:21 <phantomcircuit> what's the block_hash ?
 116 2014-08-19 01:36:38 <Luke-Jr> merkle root of block hashes
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 123 2014-08-19 01:51:43 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, what's the merkle_nonce stuff about?
 124 2014-08-19 01:51:54 <phantomcircuit> nvm i see
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 137 2014-08-19 02:12:46 <BlueMatt> has anyone started on rewriting the tester yet?
 138 2014-08-19 02:13:08 <BlueMatt> sipa/cfields/etc: ?
 139 2014-08-19 02:13:14 <BlueMatt> who else said they wanted to do it?
 140 2014-08-19 02:13:30 <jgarzik> sipa, undertaking audit of all CDataStream uses, then hopefully ACK #4618 in an hour or so
 141 2014-08-19 02:14:33 chax has joined
 142 2014-08-19 02:15:43 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, trying to move away from rpc calls for merged mining... but i think im about ready to give up on that
 143 2014-08-19 02:15:59 <Luke-Jr> :P
 144 2014-08-19 02:16:22 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: it's not like they have to be that often
 145 2014-08-19 02:17:01 theorbtwo has joined
 146 2014-08-19 02:18:08 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, check pm
 147 2014-08-19 02:19:56 pen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 148 2014-08-19 02:20:09 <sipa> BlueMatt: i have not
 149 2014-08-19 02:20:21 <sipa> though i plan to
 150 2014-08-19 02:20:37 <BlueMatt> what are you gonna write it in?
 151 2014-08-19 02:20:49 <BlueMatt> I'm lazy and I think i can make the existing one work pretty easily-ish
 152 2014-08-19 02:21:36 <BlueMatt> ie I dont want to lose all the existing tests and am too lazy to rewrite them
 153 2014-08-19 02:22:00 bbrian has joined
 154 2014-08-19 02:22:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: how strong is your objection to java? (ie would you do it in java if you just had to write and let some server compile your changes and test?)
 155 2014-08-19 02:23:34 sabfer has joined
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 158 2014-08-19 02:24:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: if you rewrite it and it becomes cleanly separated and readable, i may contribute
 159 2014-08-19 02:24:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: but i wouldn't use java myself
 160 2014-08-19 02:24:49 Application has joined
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 162 2014-08-19 02:25:41 <sipa> abd longer term i'd like to get rid of it entirely, so it can just live in the bitcoin core repo (and not require pulling in all of bitcoinj)
 163 2014-08-19 02:25:53 paxtoncamaro91 has joined
 164 2014-08-19 02:27:43 <cfields> sipa: you see the paste above?
 165 2014-08-19 02:28:52 weilu has joined
 166 2014-08-19 02:29:23 <sipa> now i have, cool
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 170 2014-08-19 02:33:41 <jgarzik> sipa, agree.  would prefer to see the tests in the bitcoin core repo && !java
 171 2014-08-19 02:37:06 Guest85238 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 172 2014-08-19 02:38:35 <jgarzik> petertodd, RE cloud hashing... cute
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 175 2014-08-19 02:40:23 <sipa> BlueMatt: tbh, i do think that any clean and readable solution will involve rewriting the tests...
 176 2014-08-19 02:41:02 akstunt600 has joined
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 183 2014-08-19 02:48:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: feel free to yell at me if my pulltester comments don't make sense; i should be asleep, haven't checked the code changes and am typing on a phone
 184 2014-08-19 02:49:06 <sipa> stupid mosquito
 185 2014-08-19 02:49:52 paxtoncamaro91 is now known as madpax
 186 2014-08-19 02:51:26 * jgarzik is waiting for tech that permits code changes to be dictated via phone
 187 2014-08-19 02:51:57 <jgarzik> There was a nice demo of coding-by-voice a year or so ago...
 188 2014-08-19 02:52:30 <jgarzik> bitcoin-tx does not accept input via stdin?  What a stupid utility.
 189 2014-08-19 02:52:37 * jgarzik updates
 190 2014-08-19 02:52:51 <sipa> who reviewed that shit??
 191 2014-08-19 02:53:10 <jgarzik> might have to remove my ACK from that PR posthumously
 192 2014-08-19 02:53:16 Subo1977 has joined
 193 2014-08-19 02:53:25 pen has joined
 194 2014-08-19 02:53:37 * sipa ponders creating a bitcoin-key utility
 195 2014-08-19 02:54:13 <jgarzik> sipa, do it.  that's part of the Master Plan.
 196 2014-08-19 02:54:29 <jgarzik> sipa, bitcoin-key and bitcoin-script seem useful.
 197 2014-08-19 02:54:47 * sipa ponders creating a bitcoin-takes-over-the-world utility
 198 2014-08-19 02:54:50 <jgarzik> sipa, bitcoin-key is where I wanted hdderive to live
 199 2014-08-19 02:54:56 <sipa> yup
 200 2014-08-19 02:55:09 <sipa> but it coulf also do sign/verify/...
 201 2014-08-19 02:55:11 Subo1977_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 202 2014-08-19 02:55:12 <sipa> *could
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 204 2014-08-19 02:55:24 <sipa> message signing, that is
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 208 2014-08-19 02:57:30 <jgarzik> sipa, yep
 209 2014-08-19 02:57:42 <jgarzik> sipa, and keygen
 210 2014-08-19 02:57:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: of course, you could rent the hashing power from someone else, but that makes the fraud quite a bit harder to pull off
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 218 2014-08-19 03:07:23 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, you cant rent any significant amount of hashing power for very long
 219 2014-08-19 03:07:25 <phantomcircuit> er
 220 2014-08-19 03:07:27 <phantomcircuit> for short period*
 221 2014-08-19 03:07:42 <dsnrk> petertodd: people do love renting hashpower though, you can get 270TH/s from one place right now if you wanted to.
 222 2014-08-19 03:10:38 lalopalo has joined
 223 2014-08-19 03:11:53 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I'd be very amused if my suggestion made that possible :P
 224 2014-08-19 03:12:39 <petertodd> dsnrk: which one is that? I haven'
 225 2014-08-19 03:12:43 banghouse has joined
 226 2014-08-19 03:12:48 <petertodd> I haven't looked at hash power renting places for awhile
 227 2014-08-19 03:13:32 <dsnrk> petertodd: nicehash.com sells a stratum proxy. you pay to have whatever stupid PoW you want, and they pipe it to your endpoint. just now somebody is renting 270TH/s of sha256d, which is sort of impressive really.
 228 2014-08-19 03:14:59 <petertodd> dsnrk: nice! that'd be an easy way to attack p2pool actually w/ block withholding
 229 2014-08-19 03:16:31 <dsnrk> petertodd: yes, that had occurred to me. it's getting to the point where it's got enough hashpower behind it to do a real world attack. from what I've heard it's been used to attack altcoins in the past, their hashpower can overwhelm almost any network except for ours.
 230 2014-08-19 03:17:33 <phantomcircuit> the funny thing is that 270Th/s could fit in a small room
 231 2014-08-19 03:18:07 <phantomcircuit> 5-6 racks of equipment
 232 2014-08-19 03:18:12 <dsnrk> petertodd: note that the "current speed" listed for anything but sha256 is misleading. if you pay enough, people's GPUs swap to that algorithm to participate.
 233 2014-08-19 03:18:29 <petertodd> dsnrk: I saw that, pretty funny
 234 2014-08-19 03:19:43 <dsnrk> curious where the 270TH/s is going, I imagine 605 people connecting to your stratum server isn't a walk in the park.
 235 2014-08-19 03:19:45 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: you know, the interesting thing about my merkle sum thing is that it prevents operations like cloudhashing from earning even more money by selling to nicehash...
 236 2014-08-19 03:20:17 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, you mean from double dipping?
 237 2014-08-19 03:20:44 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: which leads to a potentially hilarious situation: the cloud hashing operations doing merkle sum will be the ponzi schemes, and the cloud hashing operations not doing it will be the ones with actual hashing power...
 238 2014-08-19 03:20:56 <phantomcircuit> i understand that cloud miners could be ponzei schemes... but doing that would be incredibly risky
 239 2014-08-19 03:21:13 <dsnrk> is there any information I can get from their stratum server about what the endpoint is?
 240 2014-08-19 03:21:27 <petertodd> dsnrk: well, if you find a block you can figure out...
 241 2014-08-19 03:21:44 <dsnrk> phantomcircuit: here's a ponzi for you, they've somehow made a brand new type of hardware better than an ASIC. http://gawminers.com/pages/hashlet
 242 2014-08-19 03:22:21 sabfer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 243 2014-08-19 03:23:04 sabfer has joined
 244 2014-08-19 03:23:06 <dsnrk> petertodd: well *that's* not going to happen with my 1TH/s. I was thinking more of comparing the latencies with public mining pools to see which one, but chances are it wouldn't be pointed to any of them.
 245 2014-08-19 03:23:11 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, it's a scheme
 246 2014-08-19 03:23:14 <phantomcircuit> im not sure it's a scam
 247 2014-08-19 03:23:36 <phantomcircuit> they're basically selling contracts which get cheaper as they add hw with lower opex
 248 2014-08-19 03:23:45 <dsnrk> uh? well, we can both look at that and say it doesn't exist.
 249 2014-08-19 03:23:50 <phantomcircuit> essentially they're gambling that there is even going to be such a thing
 250 2014-08-19 03:24:14 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, yeah that isn't real hardware
 251 2014-08-19 03:24:25 <phantomcircuit> they're selling people contracts and pretending they're selling hosted hardware
 252 2014-08-19 03:24:40 <phantomcircuit> which is shady but not necessarily a scam
 253 2014-08-19 03:24:45 sabfer has quit (Client Quit)
 254 2014-08-19 03:25:37 <dsnrk> it's a flat out lie. they're saying they made some new hardware that's not an ASIC, that can be reprogrammed to mine any algorithm, but somehow costs significantly less than an FPGA farm.
 255 2014-08-19 03:26:22 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 256 2014-08-19 03:27:13 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, it's a bunch of marketing speak
 257 2014-08-19 03:27:18 <petertodd> dsnrk: I'd recommend they get into the much more profitable business of making FPGA's if they're that good...
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 261 2014-08-19 03:27:57 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, afaict it's marketing speak for something with zero specifications
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 264 2014-08-19 03:30:26 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, notice that there is literally nothing about what you're actually buying except for things which must be lies
 265 2014-08-19 03:30:43 wfbarks has joined
 266 2014-08-19 03:31:58 <dsnrk> phantomcircuit: I get that. I would bet against them owning any hardware at all.
 267 2014-08-19 03:32:26 wfbarks_ has joined
 268 2014-08-19 03:33:22 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, probably they dont
 269 2014-08-19 03:33:36 <phantomcircuit> it takes actual expertise to deploy at reasonable cost
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 275 2014-08-19 03:35:18 <dsnrk> phantomcircuit: what do you make of KNCminer unloading a bumperload of their ASIC chips?
 276 2014-08-19 03:35:42 wfbarks has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 277 2014-08-19 03:36:07 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, just the chips?
 278 2014-08-19 03:36:17 <dsnrk> yeah. $27 USD.
 279 2014-08-19 03:36:53 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, "Designed to run at 0.9V core voltage"
 280 2014-08-19 03:36:59 <phantomcircuit> that they fucked something up hilariously
 281 2014-08-19 03:38:05 <dsnrk> the VRMs to power the thing cost significantly more than the chip. best I found was $18 USD and you need 8 of the annoying things to power it. bear in mind this is their 28nm chip, not the new 20nm one.
 282 2014-08-19 03:38:13 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, selling chips is basically free money for any hw company
 283 2014-08-19 03:38:36 <dsnrk> "Due to yield rate the number of usable cores varies. Statistically at least 70% of our production at this level has contained chips with 100% usable cores, and up to 90% of all the chips have 187 or more usable cores, with the rest of the chips varying below that number." "This product is nonrefundable."
 284 2014-08-19 03:38:43 OneFixt has joined
 285 2014-08-19 03:38:47 <phantomcircuit> you place an order with the tsmc/global, a third party does verification, they get sent to your customer
 286 2014-08-19 03:38:52 <phantomcircuit> you simply collect the money
 287 2014-08-19 03:39:01 <dsnrk> they're shipping from stock though.
 288 2014-08-19 03:39:38 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, possibly they're selling the bad part of the lots
 289 2014-08-19 03:40:29 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, how much power is one of those using?
 290 2014-08-19 03:41:33 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, oh i see
 291 2014-08-19 03:41:42 <phantomcircuit> they're selling their old 28nm chips since they have the 20nm chips
 292 2014-08-19 03:41:48 <phantomcircuit> probably they just ordered too many of them
 293 2014-08-19 03:41:56 <phantomcircuit> offer them like $1/chip
 294 2014-08-19 03:42:01 <phantomcircuit> i bet they'd take it
 295 2014-08-19 03:42:15 AtashiCon has joined
 296 2014-08-19 03:42:34 <dsnrk> for a good bin it looks like you pump 220W in and get 150GH out.
 297 2014-08-19 03:45:23 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, yeah they're just trying to offload their older chips
 298 2014-08-19 03:45:35 mpmcsweeney has joined
 299 2014-08-19 03:46:12 <phantomcircuit> it's interesting that their chips require such a high voltage
 300 2014-08-19 03:46:23 <phantomcircuit> everybody else on the same process is 100mV lower
 301 2014-08-19 03:46:26 <phantomcircuit> (if not more)
 302 2014-08-19 03:47:15 <dsnrk> I'm at a loss to explain who would buy them. you're looking at $200 to get one on a board with the right power supply.
 303 2014-08-19 03:48:20 <petertodd> dsnrk: potentially someone with a clever idea for a cheaper power supply
 304 2014-08-19 03:48:40 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, there are interesting ways to save money on the power supplies
 305 2014-08-19 03:48:53 <phantomcircuit> if you can get the chips cheap enough it's worth doing them
 306 2014-08-19 03:49:00 <phantomcircuit> a few strings of them overheat and melt
 307 2014-08-19 03:49:03 <phantomcircuit> who cares
 308 2014-08-19 03:49:55 <phantomcircuit> there's something really weird about the knc 28nm chips though
 309 2014-08-19 03:50:09 <dsnrk> sure, you can do interesting things, but you're against the clock in terms of difficulty. if you had boxes of those (I note there's no data sheets for them anywhere), you'd be wanting to get them running as soon as possible, not waiting for your rev38 PCB to be fabbed.
 310 2014-08-19 03:50:25 <phantomcircuit> the voltage trimming algorithm almost always ends up with entire chips dead
 311 2014-08-19 03:50:45 <phantomcircuit> it's like the coodination logic between the cores requires a higher voltage than the hashing cores themselves or something ridiculous
 312 2014-08-19 03:51:17 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, i dont think knc gives a crap anymore
 313 2014-08-19 03:51:26 <phantomcircuit> they have made literally tens of millions of dollars
 314 2014-08-19 03:51:46 <dsnrk> no, I don't think I would care either.
 315 2014-08-19 03:52:20 <phantomcircuit> tbh i think they stopped caring in about september
 316 2014-08-19 03:52:33 <phantomcircuit> delivered their first batch and were instantly rich
 317 2014-08-19 03:52:38 kermit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 318 2014-08-19 03:53:00 <dsnrk> don't know why they bothered with the self-mining thing at all. they'd have been better with the shovels.
 319 2014-08-19 03:53:19 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, hubris
 320 2014-08-19 03:53:26 <phantomcircuit> it seems like an easy thing to do
 321 2014-08-19 03:53:29 <phantomcircuit> hint: it's not
 322 2014-08-19 03:53:51 * dsnrk had trouble keeping 4 antminers cool enough
 323 2014-08-19 03:54:45 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 324 2014-08-19 03:55:19 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, it really just depends on what efficiency you're targetting
 325 2014-08-19 03:55:33 Guest85238 has joined
 326 2014-08-19 03:55:33 <phantomcircuit> higher die temp means more power consumed
 327 2014-08-19 03:55:40 <petertodd> dsnrk: send 'em to my parents place - they pay $800/month for heating
 328 2014-08-19 03:55:47 <phantomcircuit> but you can run most chips with a die temp above 115
 329 2014-08-19 03:55:54 <dsnrk> I undervolt and underclock my miners, and sold half of them
 330 2014-08-19 03:56:13 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, the easier thing to do is just to run them stupid hot
 331 2014-08-19 03:56:25 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yeah, stupid hot and on a UPS so they don't get thermally cycled
 332 2014-08-19 03:56:25 <dsnrk> phantomcircuit: my power bill says otherwise.
 333 2014-08-19 03:57:03 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, are you using a normal ac system to cool them?
 334 2014-08-19 03:57:05 <phantomcircuit> if so
 335 2014-08-19 03:57:07 <phantomcircuit> lol yeah dont do that
 336 2014-08-19 03:57:14 <dsnrk> huh? I'm not an idiot
 337 2014-08-19 03:57:40 <petertodd> dsnrk: even if you are using a normal ac system, the hotter you run them the less the ac system costs per joule of heat generated
 338 2014-08-19 03:57:44 <phantomcircuit> most equipment will work correctly if it's got enough airflow even at relatively high ambient temps
 339 2014-08-19 03:57:51 <phantomcircuit> they just wont work well for very long
 340 2014-08-19 03:58:32 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, so i've been staring at merged mining stuff all day kind of scratching my head
 341 2014-08-19 03:58:40 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yeah?
 342 2014-08-19 03:58:43 <dsnrk> petertodd: I'm not using an AC. the "keeing them cool enough" was more a comment about me being able to live in the same space, more than worrying about the miners themselves. as long as they aren't on fire the miners will survive.
 343 2014-08-19 03:58:50 <phantomcircuit> it seems more complicated than it needs to be
 344 2014-08-19 03:59:05 <phantomcircuit> for example the chain id stuff seems unnessary
 345 2014-08-19 03:59:15 <phantomcircuit> should be able to just include the merkle branch
 346 2014-08-19 03:59:49 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, i've seen lots of people running the antminers outside in fairly warm places
 347 2014-08-19 03:59:49 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: ah, yeah, that standard is utterly bonkers
 348 2014-08-19 04:00:43 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I wrote up proposal for a sane one awhile back on the -dev email list based on binary radix trees, using the prevblockhash to randomly distribute collissions
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 352 2014-08-19 04:02:26 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the only part that seems distinctly insane is the chain id stuff
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 355 2014-08-19 04:04:16 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: been awhile since I looked at it, but as I remember it fails to prevent collissions or something
 356 2014-08-19 04:04:42 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yeah it does
 357 2014-08-19 04:05:31 Adlai has joined
 358 2014-08-19 04:05:46 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, and there's weird stuff like the merkle tree size has to be a power of two
 359 2014-08-19 04:06:11 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup
 360 2014-08-19 04:06:39 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: are you able to prove that a given chain ID is *not* in the tree compactly? I forget
 361 2014-08-19 04:06:58 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i have no idea
 362 2014-08-19 04:07:27 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yes you should be able to
 363 2014-08-19 04:07:39 <phantomcircuit> chain_id gets convoluted into a slot_num
 364 2014-08-19 04:08:04 <phantomcircuit> so with the merkle root and the branch you should be able to easily
 365 2014-08-19 04:08:13 <petertodd> right, so you should be able to just show the path was from the right place
 366 2014-08-19 04:08:24 <phantomcircuit> the entire chain id <->slotnum thing is broken though
 367 2014-08-19 04:09:19 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the algorithm for calculating slot num from chain id is just comically obviously broken
 368 2014-08-19 04:09:39 <petertodd> yeah
 369 2014-08-19 04:10:24 <phantomcircuit> i dont even understand the logic behind it
 370 2014-08-19 04:10:36 <phantomcircuit> if two chains have the same chain id, they're obviously going to have the same slot number
 371 2014-08-19 04:10:45 pinhead has joined
 372 2014-08-19 04:11:42 <petertodd> and the chain id thing is a small integer wasn't it?
 373 2014-08-19 04:12:30 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, iirc it's arbitrary length really
 374 2014-08-19 04:12:37 <phantomcircuit> since it's not actually included in the headers
 375 2014-08-19 04:12:48 <phantomcircuit> basically
 376 2014-08-19 04:13:05 <phantomcircuit> chain_id -> slot_num
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 378 2014-08-19 04:13:19 <phantomcircuit> then the slot_num is used to figure out which part of the merkle tree to use
 379 2014-08-19 04:13:21 weilu has joined
 380 2014-08-19 04:13:49 <phantomcircuit> except you also have blockchain_branch which already has that branch selected anyways
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 383 2014-08-19 04:14:33 <phantomcircuit> oh it's something about preventing submitting the same pow twice
 384 2014-08-19 04:14:52 <phantomcircuit> yeah since you could put the hash for the merged coin into the tree at multiple places
 385 2014-08-19 04:15:08 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup
 386 2014-08-19 04:16:24 <phantomcircuit> and i guess you cant just reject blocks with duplicate pow since it would make it tirival to fork the merged network for a few blocks at a time
 387 2014-08-19 04:16:32 <petertodd> yup
 388 2014-08-19 04:16:39 <phantomcircuit> just include the hash like 10k times and give all 10k peers a unique solution
 389 2014-08-19 04:17:11 <kdomanski> sipa: about that stream interface, there's another nice approach possible
 390 2014-08-19 04:17:39 pinhead has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 391 2014-08-19 04:17:39 <kdomanski> boost variant can emulate an interface
 392 2014-08-19 04:17:43 fuzion24 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 393 2014-08-19 04:17:52 <kdomanski> a static visitor would resolve the actual class
 394 2014-08-19 04:18:08 <kdomanski> with little overhead
 395 2014-08-19 04:18:13 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, ok i understand the insanity a bit better
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 397 2014-08-19 04:18:17 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: also, if you don't enfore uniqueness of the top-level block hash, you could have 10k blocks all under the same pow
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 399 2014-08-19 04:18:34 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yeah that's what i was saying
 400 2014-08-19 04:18:37 <kdomanski> and in the end you get a single type, just like with virtual interface
 401 2014-08-19 04:18:46 <phantomcircuit> er maybe not
 402 2014-08-19 04:19:16 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: if you only enforced uniqueness, you need more confirms to be sure than if you do both
 403 2014-08-19 04:19:39 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, top level block hash, you mean the merkle tree root?
 404 2014-08-19 04:19:42 <phantomcircuit> que
 405 2014-08-19 04:20:00 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: no, the hash of the bitcoin block header
 406 2014-08-19 04:20:05 <phantomcircuit> ohh
 407 2014-08-19 04:21:05 <phantomcircuit> wait that doesn't seem right
 408 2014-08-19 04:22:01 <alexwaters> I'm trying (struggling) to read the IBLT whitepaper and came across a part that touches on quotienting. This tickled my curiosity about whether there are any space saving methods used as such: store two data points by diving one by the other, this resulting quotient requires some processing time to recover the likely dividends and divisors - but if they have specific properties it would reduce the in-air bandwidth requiremen
 409 2014-08-19 04:22:01 <alexwaters> ts - offloading that to processing costs locally. Is there anything like this, or am I a total noob.
 410 2014-08-19 04:22:03 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, is the previous pow included in the merkle tree stuff?
 411 2014-08-19 04:22:30 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 412 2014-08-19 04:22:49 <phantomcircuit> the merkle tree should be hashes of the block header including the hash of the previous block header including the previous blocks pow
 413 2014-08-19 04:22:55 <phantomcircuit> which would make that impossible
 414 2014-08-19 04:23:14 <sipa> kdomanski: i've trying to change the serialize interface to have a single templated method per data type, instead of the triple generated by implement_serialize
 415 2014-08-19 04:24:10 <sipa> kdomanski: i have little problems with templating, but the macros are ugly...
 416 2014-08-19 04:24:36 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, lol the hash does include the previous pow
 417 2014-08-19 04:24:41 <phantomcircuit> that is just ridiculous
 418 2014-08-19 04:25:21 <phantomcircuit> i really hope im reading this wrong
 419 2014-08-19 04:25:28 <phantomcircuit> ima go double check the namecoin source
 420 2014-08-19 04:26:41 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I'm pretty sure namecoin did that right...
 421 2014-08-19 04:26:54 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, no they did it wrong
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 423 2014-08-19 04:27:16 <sipa> kdomanski: if using boost variant makes things significantly more readable, sure, but i'm not sure it will
 424 2014-08-19 04:27:18 <phantomcircuit> namecoin block header hashes are from nVersion to nNonce
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 426 2014-08-19 04:27:39 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: so the prevblockhash is the namecoin block hash? that's ok with the chain id thing though, *because* they collide
 427 2014-08-19 04:27:41 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, which means they dont include the pow for the block in the header hash
 428 2014-08-19 04:27:50 <kdomanski> sipa: I'll play around and see what I can do
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 432 2014-08-19 04:28:18 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: right, if not for the chain id construction they'd be screwed
 433 2014-08-19 04:28:23 <phantomcircuit> yeah
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 435 2014-08-19 04:29:22 <phantomcircuit> it does make it significantly more difficult to implement in a compact form the merged mining stuff at the pool level though
 436 2014-08-19 04:29:46 <phantomcircuit> some idiot comes along and claims a chain_id that someone else is using
 437 2014-08-19 04:30:13 <phantomcircuit> you're basically guaranteed to be wasting a ton of slots
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 439 2014-08-19 04:32:39 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: yup, binary radix trees are simple, and the verification code for the merkle proof trivial
 440 2014-08-19 04:34:41 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the key being the previous block hash?
 441 2014-08-19 04:34:50 <phantomcircuit> or the key being the hash of the block?
 442 2014-08-19 04:35:07 <phantomcircuit> yeah that would prevent shenanigans
 443 2014-08-19 04:35:27 <phantomcircuit> actually it would only partially prevent shenanigans
 444 2014-08-19 04:35:41 <phantomcircuit> it would have to be the previous block hash
 445 2014-08-19 04:35:51 <phantomcircuit> otherwise you could mutate transactions in odd ways
 446 2014-08-19 04:36:01 <phantomcircuit> and give each peer a new valid block
 447 2014-08-19 04:36:35 weilu has joined
 448 2014-08-19 04:36:37 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: basically H(prevblockhash + chain_uuid)
 449 2014-08-19 04:38:06 mpmcsweeney has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 450 2014-08-19 04:38:13 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, prev block hash alone is enough
 451 2014-08-19 04:38:29 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: to actually create the radix tree from a set of (chain_uuid, chain_blockhash) tuples you can just use a recursive algorithm that takes a set and calls itself twice with half the set each until the set contains just one item
 452 2014-08-19 04:38:32 mpmcsweeney has joined
 453 2014-08-19 04:38:41 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I mean H(prevblockhash + chain_uuid) is the key used for the binary radix tree
 454 2014-08-19 04:39:16 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, i know... but why
 455 2014-08-19 04:40:14 <phantomcircuit> the previous block hash will be unique anyways
 456 2014-08-19 04:41:04 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: it's to ensure that people can't cause trouble by picking chain_uuid's that nearly conflict with other chain_uuids
 457 2014-08-19 04:41:28 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, what do you even need the chain uuid for though
 458 2014-08-19 04:42:08 <phantomcircuit> just use the prev block hash as the key
 459 2014-08-19 04:42:44 <phantomcircuit> in the radix tree you cant have two endpoints with the same key value on different branches
 460 2014-08-19 04:42:49 <phantomcircuit> no need for the chain id idea at all
 461 2014-08-19 04:42:50 mpmcsweeney has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 462 2014-08-19 04:43:03 <phantomcircuit> (i think)
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 465 2014-08-19 04:44:10 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: prev block hash of the MM chain you mean? if you do that then I can still play the "mine multiple blocks" trick, and I can't prove that a given chain *wasn't* mined in a block
 466 2014-08-19 04:46:45 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the only trick im seeing is that you include the info for the merged chain multiple times into the same tree
 467 2014-08-19 04:47:01 <phantomcircuit> then you claim each of those branches as a separate pow
 468 2014-08-19 04:47:29 <phantomcircuit> but if you use the previous block header hash in a radix tree... then you cant do that
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 471 2014-08-19 04:51:02 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, see what im saying?
 472 2014-08-19 04:51:46 copumpkin has joined
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 476 2014-08-19 04:57:47 <phantomcircuit> leaves me hanging
 477 2014-08-19 04:57:49 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: right, but if it's the MM chain header, then the prev hash is independent of the PoW hash, so you can pull off that trick
 478 2014-08-19 04:58:18 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: if it's not independent, then you have a collission problem, which can be resolved by hashing that prevblockhash with, say, a chain_uuid... oh wait :)
 479 2014-08-19 04:59:10 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, why do you have a collision problem? just have the hash be both the merged chain header AND the previous pow
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 483 2014-08-19 05:00:45 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the merged chain header means you dont have collisions and the previous pow means you can pull off the multiple outputs trick
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 486 2014-08-19 05:02:06 <phantomcircuit> i think it works at least
 487 2014-08-19 05:03:30 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: nope, I could separate the chain by mining two different valid tips in different blocks, then I'd have independent chains I can MM together
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 491 2014-08-19 05:04:40 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, so by mining block 100 and block 99 ?
 492 2014-08-19 05:04:48 <phantomcircuit> im not sure i care about that
 493 2014-08-19 05:05:07 <petertodd> you should, that enables some pretty ugly attacks
 494 2014-08-19 05:05:19 <phantomcircuit> hmm yeah i guess it would be annoying
 495 2014-08-19 05:05:22 <petertodd> much easier just to use the UUID :)
 496 2014-08-19 05:05:23 <phantomcircuit> lots of spam
 497 2014-08-19 05:05:35 <phantomcircuit> oh actually
 498 2014-08-19 05:05:44 <phantomcircuit> the bigger issue is if there was a fork
 499 2014-08-19 05:05:50 <phantomcircuit> i could mine each one an equal length
 500 2014-08-19 05:05:53 <phantomcircuit> yeah that is a problem
 501 2014-08-19 05:06:00 <petertodd> that's what I'm saying
 502 2014-08-19 05:06:01 <phantomcircuit> nvm chain uuid it is
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 505 2014-08-19 05:06:12 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, yeah i wasn't getting it
 506 2014-08-19 05:06:14 <phantomcircuit> now i get it
 507 2014-08-19 05:06:27 <phantomcircuit> too many ambiguous words at play
 508 2014-08-19 05:06:51 <petertodd> heh, we rally need more terms for this
 509 2014-08-19 05:07:15 <phantomcircuit> so actually
 510 2014-08-19 05:07:18 hmsimha has joined
 511 2014-08-19 05:07:41 <phantomcircuit> no matter what you'd be able to mine block 99 and block 100 but not block 100a and block 100b
 512 2014-08-19 05:07:53 Aido_ has joined
 513 2014-08-19 05:08:01 <phantomcircuit> H(prevhash + chain_id) doesnt' prevent the first one
 514 2014-08-19 05:08:19 <phantomcircuit> so you probably just want to do the chain_id itself
 515 2014-08-19 05:08:25 <phantomcircuit> in the radix tree
 516 2014-08-19 05:08:41 <phantomcircuit> basically it's the same construct as exists currently, except using the right data structure
 517 2014-08-19 05:08:57 <petertodd> oh, to be clear, I mean H(masterprevhash + chain_id), not the prevhash for the MM chain
 518 2014-08-19 05:09:03 <phantomcircuit> ah
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 520 2014-08-19 05:09:13 <phantomcircuit> yeah i think that works fine
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 523 2014-08-19 05:15:58 <dsnrk> odd that the RPC server lets you test how long the RPC password is
 524 2014-08-19 05:16:20 <dsnrk> if it's < 20 characters you get confirmation due to it sleeping before dropping the connection
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 527 2014-08-19 05:18:21 <dsnrk> not that the sleep does anything to stop people from brute force attacking it, you can make a request with an invalid method (fastest response) and assume it's false if you don't get a reply back straight away.
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 539 2014-08-19 05:31:39 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, now i just have to figure out how to stuff a radix tree into the existing mm structure so we can continue to mine nmc while also doing this
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 558 2014-08-19 05:46:30 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: use p2pool's op_return commitment scheme for new MM things
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 560 2014-08-19 05:49:16 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, basically just using an op_return output for everythign right
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 569 2014-08-19 05:56:47 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: right, one at the end of the tx, which means with sha256 midstates you get small proofs
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 585 2014-08-19 06:17:29 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, oh right you just hash the rest of the coinbase tx and then midstate + op_return data
 586 2014-08-19 06:17:31 <phantomcircuit> interesting
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 612 2014-08-19 06:44:05 <alexwate_> my understanding of IBLTs are such that QT nodes would get the blockchain, and blocks in it would have an IBLT ~80byte header in place of the ~1MB transaction field. If that's true (which I'm very unsure of), how do QT nodes find their wallet balance?
 613 2014-08-19 06:44:25 <alexwate_> and if it's not true, how does IBLT squeeze more txs into a block without increasing block size limits
 614 2014-08-19 06:45:57 pent has joined
 615 2014-08-19 06:46:40 <alexwate_> or does it only address block propagation time not being slowed by size of transaction field, and full QT nodes will still have to store every transaction that are in the IBLTs
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 617 2014-08-19 06:47:51 <wumpus> dsnrk: the sleeping does hold up a thread, of which only a very limited number is available by default, although having it conditional on the password size is weird
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 619 2014-08-19 06:50:57 <dsnrk> wumpus: right, was forgetting it wasn't apache or something.
 620 2014-08-19 06:51:56 <wumpus> thinking about it, it makes it possible for someone who doesn't have the password to do an effective DoS
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 622 2014-08-19 06:53:02 <dsnrk> couldn't they just open a connection and then sleep forever and have the same result?
 623 2014-08-19 06:53:07 <wumpus> then again, RPC security is based on binding/allowip, if an attacker is that far that they can try passwords it's  good to have a warning...
 624 2014-08-19 06:53:20 <wumpus> dsnrk: true in this case
 625 2014-08-19 06:53:47 <wumpus> the sleep makes sense, but it should be done always, not based on password length
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 627 2014-08-19 06:54:54 <wumpus> alexwate_:  as I understand it, IBLT doesn't squeeze more transactions into a block
 628 2014-08-19 06:55:17 <wumpus> alexwate_: it just allows communicating new blocks faster by making use of transactions that have already been propagated
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 630 2014-08-19 06:56:00 <wumpus> so it affects communication - not storage
 631 2014-08-19 06:56:32 <dsnrk> alexwate_: wallets also do not have balances.
 632 2014-08-19 06:57:24 <dsnrk> at the block level (what we are talking about) there's only outputs.
 633 2014-08-19 06:57:27 <wumpus> dsnrk: wallets do :p
 634 2014-08-19 06:58:06 <wumpus> dsnrk: wallets are a collection of private keys, and associated 'coins'/outputs they can spend with it, so they have a spendable balance
 635 2014-08-19 06:58:20 <wumpus> you're probably confused with addreses which indeed don't have a balance
 636 2014-08-19 06:58:58 <dsnrk> wumpus: yes, but at the block level that's not the case. I was trying to get to the point that bitcoin-qt doesn't look in blocks for balances at all, they search for outputs which scripts they can satisfy.
 637 2014-08-19 06:59:10 <wumpus> and yeah, wallets indeed don't exist at the block level, it's easy to confuse abstraction levels
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 639 2014-08-19 07:00:08 <wumpus> dsnrk: that's true, computing balances is more involved than just looking in blocks for them
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 641 2014-08-19 07:02:36 <alexwate_> a more modular network could have verifying nodes. my electrum wallet could get my spendable amount from a centralized server on initialization, but could do IBLT key-pair GETS to verify specific txs without relying on that central server, no?
 642 2014-08-19 07:03:26 <alexwate_> and have self-verifiable txs, without have to download all the txs ever
 643 2014-08-19 07:03:42 <dsnrk> read up about SPV clients
 644 2014-08-19 07:04:31 <dsnrk> the contents of a block can already be verified using the merkle tree without having all of the transactions.
 645 2014-08-19 07:05:00 <alexwate_> oh that's cool. sorry didn't know that
 646 2014-08-19 07:05:04 <wumpus> IBLT is aimed at miners and verifying nodes that want all transactions, and that's what the compression makes use of
 647 2014-08-19 07:05:45 <dsnrk> all it's doing is reducing transfer time for blocks by avoiding sending redundant data.
 648 2014-08-19 07:06:00 <dsnrk> lower orphans, less bandwidth, lossless compression.
 649 2014-08-19 07:06:11 <wumpus> SPV, setting bloom filters to receive only a subset of transactions, is a different way to reduce bandwidth for a different reason
 650 2014-08-19 07:06:50 <petertodd> dsnrk: however IBLT only works if large miners are "honest"
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 653 2014-08-19 07:07:24 <alexwate_> i thought it also works if they're more profitable
 654 2014-08-19 07:07:27 <petertodd> dsnrk: large miners still have an advantage over small ones that they can exploit
 655 2014-08-19 07:07:27 <dsnrk> p2pool seems to manage with a similar system, doesn't it?
 656 2014-08-19 07:07:47 <petertodd> dsnrk: p2pool can be exploited profitably by those with low-latency
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 659 2014-08-19 07:08:03 <petertodd> dsnrk: also, p2pool shares are much smaller than blocks
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 661 2014-08-19 07:09:56 <petertodd> alexwate_: the problem is that with regard to fees you have no incentive to distribute your blocks to >30% of the hashing power; similar to selfish mining incentives, but in a more fundemental way
 662 2014-08-19 07:11:21 <petertodd> alexwate_: even with the subsidy given that mining is a zerosum game a valid long-term strategy is to mine blocks that contain transactions that haven't been widely distributed, defeating IBLT, so your competitors are orphaned
 663 2014-08-19 07:11:21 <alexwate_> @petertodd would that be a new problem though, or newly compounded?
 664 2014-08-19 07:11:37 <petertodd> alexwate_: it's compounded if you think IBLT means you can raise the blocksize basically
 665 2014-08-19 07:12:00 <petertodd> alexwate_: tl;dr: IBLT is an optimization that only works if people are honest; it's not incentive compatible
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 669 2014-08-19 07:13:44 <alexwate_> damn humans, we should program robots to figure this all out then ;)
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 671 2014-08-19 07:14:35 <petertodd> alexwate_: heh
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 674 2014-08-19 07:15:37 <petertodd> alexwate_: something interesting that came out of the GHash.IO 50% attack meeting is that GHash.IO is knowingly operating their pool at a loss
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 676 2014-08-19 07:16:05 <petertodd> alexwate_: now, if you
 677 2014-08-19 07:16:22 <dsnrk> petertodd: oh really?
 678 2014-08-19 07:16:33 <petertodd> alexwate_: now, if you're willing to operate a pool at a loss to gain marketshare, sabotaging IBLT is just a logical thing to do
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 680 2014-08-19 07:17:02 <petertodd> dsnrk: yup, remember, they charge no fees; they didn't have a good explanation as to why they were willing to do that, just vague stuff about driving business to their exchange
 681 2014-08-19 07:17:29 <alexwate_> IMHO, Bitcoin is a work by intelligent robots to distract #bitcoin-dev (especially Luke) from working on anti-robot weaponry... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
 682 2014-08-19 07:17:31 <dsnrk> petertodd: I thought it was to smooth out their orphan rate (it was awful for a while)
 683 2014-08-19 07:17:53 <alexwate_> satoshi 9000, cleverest robot in cryptography
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 685 2014-08-19 07:18:40 <alexwate_> and if they are willing to sabotage IBLT, wouldn't it be in the end-user's interest to prune them somehow?
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 687 2014-08-19 07:20:11 <petertodd> dsnrk: that was just bad misconfiguration
 688 2014-08-19 07:20:42 <petertodd> alexwate_: prune them? what do you mean?
 689 2014-08-19 07:21:02 <dsnrk> petertodd: I'm not worried about it myself. as Andreas says, if they do anything bad we'll ban them from the network :3
 690 2014-08-19 07:21:22 <petertodd> dsnrk: yeah, good luck on that...
 691 2014-08-19 07:21:33 <JohnKenney> it kills the decentralised thing
 692 2014-08-19 07:21:43 <petertodd> JohnKenney: exactly
 693 2014-08-19 07:21:52 <alexwate_> petertodd: change the PoW, move to a WoT-based largest chain system, I don't know - hire IG88 to take out their ASICs
 694 2014-08-19 07:21:57 <dsnrk> petertodd: I know. I'm calling attention to him being a fool, as always.
 695 2014-08-19 07:22:16 <dsnrk> petertodd: he got up in front of hundreds of people and said that.
 696 2014-08-19 07:22:33 <petertodd> dsnrk: yup, kinda cringeworthy that...
 697 2014-08-19 07:22:56 <dsnrk> and some shit about governments not being able to fab their on ASIC mining chips.
 698 2014-08-19 07:23:58 <petertodd> dsnrk: which is strictly speaking true... but globalfoundries isn't exactly going to turn down a US government purchase order
 699 2014-08-19 07:24:01 <dsnrk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWTQgmCuiCw
 700 2014-08-19 07:24:16 <phantomcircuit> dsnrk, wat
 701 2014-08-19 07:24:38 <alexwate_> petertodd: the US govt doesn't need a private sector foundry...lol
 702 2014-08-19 07:24:52 <dsnrk> petertodd: it's not even approaching true. governments have budgets we can't even imagine.
 703 2014-08-19 07:24:56 <phantomcircuit> alexwate_, actually they do
 704 2014-08-19 07:25:01 <phantomcircuit> the best fab the feds have is 155nm
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 706 2014-08-19 07:25:08 <petertodd> alexwate_: no, they do, the US govt does *not* have the ability to make top of the line chips themselves
 707 2014-08-19 07:25:35 <alexwate_> oh
 708 2014-08-19 07:25:47 <dsnrk> does it matter? if you have enough money anything is possible.
 709 2014-08-19 07:25:47 <phantomcircuit> they can probably get them at cost though
 710 2014-08-19 07:25:54 <wumpus> why would they? they contract everything out these days
 711 2014-08-19 07:25:56 <phantomcircuit> which would be about 10x cheaper than what 99% of people pay
 712 2014-08-19 07:26:04 <wumpus> btw, off topic for #bitcoin-dev
 713 2014-08-19 07:26:11 <dsnrk> sorry.
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 759 2014-08-19 08:24:57 <kdomanski> sipa: the one thing with single template I cannot wrap my head around is the fact that Serialize and GetSerializeSize should be constant functions, while Deserialize cannot
 760 2014-08-19 08:25:16 <kdomanski> and a template cannot generate both
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 766 2014-08-19 08:34:11 <sipa> kdomanski: indeed, that's a pity
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 795 2014-08-19 09:04:18 <sipa> kdomanski: one way is to use a templated wrapper object around every object being serialized/deserialized, and use a different one for serialize/deserialize, and make the serialize one accept a const ref as argument
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 800 2014-08-19 09:10:25 <sipa> kdomanski: for getserializesize, a specialed serializer
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 810 2014-08-19 09:18:19 <kdomanski> sipa: for GetSerializeSize, one could simply serialize with SerReadWrite
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 812 2014-08-19 09:18:47 <kdomanski> I mean with CSizeComputer
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 815 2014-08-19 09:19:52 <sipa> yes, that was my intention
 816 2014-08-19 09:20:20 <sipa> and you could specialize the serialize method for that writer if you wanted something more efficient
 817 2014-08-19 09:20:37 <kdomanski> yup
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 819 2014-08-19 09:22:09 <kdomanski> as for more efficiency, is shaving off CPU cycles here really of much use? I thought we were mostly IO bound
 820 2014-08-19 09:22:49 <sipa> some data structures are serialozed/deserialized many times
 821 2014-08-19 09:23:05 <sipa> and with much dbcache, io hardly matters
 822 2014-08-19 09:23:21 <kdomanski> sipa: has there any profiling been done?
 823 2014-08-19 09:23:23 <sipa> but it's (i assume) much more than a few cpu cycles
 824 2014-08-19 09:23:40 <sipa> some, but i'm mostly guessing
 825 2014-08-19 09:23:45 <kdomanski> ok
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 827 2014-08-19 09:24:18 <sipa> it's not that the dynamic dispatching on itself is a problem i fear
 828 2014-08-19 09:24:39 <sipa> it's that the code can't be inlined and pretty much oprimkzed away through it
 829 2014-08-19 09:24:45 <sipa> *optimized
 830 2014-08-19 09:25:18 <wumpus> yes, dynamic dispatching foils static analysis
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 834 2014-08-19 09:26:35 * kdomanski googles dynamic dispatching
 835 2014-08-19 09:26:41 <wumpus> which is a bad thing for the consensus code
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 838 2014-08-19 09:27:04 <sipa> kdomanski: vtable lookup
 839 2014-08-19 09:27:19 <kdomanski> sipa: ah, thx
 840 2014-08-19 09:27:30 <sipa> the code position jumped to is determined at runtime rather than at compile time
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 882 2014-08-19 10:01:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I don't think https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4726 mkes much sense
 883 2014-08-19 10:02:40 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I don't disagree. It was a good exercise though - I found a few bugs in libbase58 in the process :D
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 885 2014-08-19 10:02:50 <wumpus> the wrapper code is almost as long as our own implementation of b58
 886 2014-08-19 10:02:52 <wumpus> ok :D
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 889 2014-08-19 10:03:37 <Luke-Jr> also learned more why people dislike automake :x
 890 2014-08-19 10:03:55 <wumpus> it's extrememly high maintenance, hard to debug, hard to understand
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 892 2014-08-19 10:04:36 <Luke-Jr> well, I think about stupid things like the first build not having inter-file make dependencies, subprojects having to use the same configure arguments as the parent (worked around in that PR), etc
 893 2014-08-19 10:04:48 <wumpus> still, lots better than our old build system
 894 2014-08-19 10:05:00 <Luke-Jr> personally, I've found it pretty good for debugging and understanding *shrug*
 895 2014-08-19 10:05:03 <Luke-Jr> definitely
 896 2014-08-19 10:05:12 <Luke-Jr> and I'm not about to suggest any alternatives are better, sadly
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 899 2014-08-19 10:06:06 <wumpus> well for example see something as trivial as passing a source directory to a test wrapper, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4624
 900 2014-08-19 10:06:39 <Luke-Jr> ok sure, the test stuff is a bit nasty. it works pretty nice, though :P
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 934 2014-08-19 11:08:42 <midnightmagic> the use of boost::filesystem::copy_file() in src/walletdb.cpp is causing ABI compatibility issues in a pkgsrc build environment linker which can't be solved by setting a define as suggested here: http://www.robertnitsch.de/notes/cpp/cpp11_boost_filesystem_undefined_reference_copy_file
 935 2014-08-19 11:09:08 <midnightmagic> the easiest fix for now is a patch which converts the copy_file() to a plain copy() and remove the conditional entirely.
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 937 2014-08-19 11:09:24 <midnightmagic> apologies in advance if this is horrible for someone in the future who does a google search and finds these comments.
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 958 2014-08-19 11:35:11 <kdomanski> sipa: I managed to make IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE 2x shorter and implement the statements in a template instead of through the macro
 959 2014-08-19 11:35:25 <kdomanski> sipa: it's compiling, we'll see if it works
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 961 2014-08-19 11:35:45 <Luke-Jr> kdomanski: shorter is not necessarily better
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 970 2014-08-19 11:50:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr, kdomanski: shorter - all other things equal - is certainly preferable, but i really just want to get rid of mactos with code body
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 973 2014-08-19 11:53:07 <kdomanski> sipa: Yes, the code body is no longer in the macro. The macro just implements the three functions as wrappers over the template. Still compiling.
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 978 2014-08-19 11:59:14 <wumpus> midnightmagic: huh, is that a boost version issue?
 979 2014-08-19 11:59:52 <wumpus> is copy_file deprecated? or newly introduced?
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 983 2014-08-19 12:01:02 <wumpus> I see the flag argument was added in boost 1.40 -- is that maybe wrong?
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 986 2014-08-19 12:03:24 <wumpus> wait: you shouldn't be compiling bitcoin with -std=c++0x at all
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 998 2014-08-19 12:13:55 <kdomanski> sipa: aaaaand, the test failed
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1000 2014-08-19 12:14:43 <sipa> :)
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1014 2014-08-19 12:28:18 <michagogo> 08:10:15 <dsnrk> odd that the RPC server lets you test how long the RPC password is
1015 2014-08-19 12:28:18 <michagogo> 08:10:36 <dsnrk> if it's < 20 characters you get confirmation due to it sleeping before dropping the connection
1016 2014-08-19 12:28:29 <michagogo> Eh? Wasn't there a CVE about that that got fixed?
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1026 2014-08-19 12:43:57 <wumpus> michagogo: AFAIK no, that was about the timing attack
1027 2014-08-19 12:44:05 <wumpus> fixed by using a constant-time compare
1028 2014-08-19 12:44:42 <michagogo> ah
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1032 2014-08-19 12:56:04 <wumpus> michagogo, dsnrk https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4728
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1039 2014-08-19 13:12:59 <jgarzik> I always considered RPC password security patches a waste of time.  We use basic freakin auth, and you should not be exposing it over WAN regardless of password length.
1040 2014-08-19 13:13:07 <jgarzik> (even via ssl)
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1042 2014-08-19 13:15:06 <wumpus> still, it is pretty stupid to base a response on the password length, so I think that needs to be fixed
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1044 2014-08-19 13:16:37 <wumpus> but in general I agree
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1054 2014-08-19 13:29:10 <dsnrk> jgarzik: I agree, but people do expose it to the internet sadly.
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1058 2014-08-19 13:40:25 <lclc> sipa: If there would be a bigint implementation for the secp256k1, Bitcoin wouldn't need openssl anymore at all as dependency (expect for optional encryption of the wallet file) right? https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/issues/30
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1065 2014-08-19 13:46:12 <sipa> lclc: you can use gmp
1066 2014-08-19 13:46:27 <sipa> we still use openssl as PRNG though
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1071 2014-08-19 13:54:53 <wumpus> lclc: openssl is also used for rpc, but that will be made optional too once secp256k1 is integrated
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1076 2014-08-19 13:56:08 <sipa> lclc: also, the payment protocol requires an ssl implementation
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1078 2014-08-19 13:56:57 <wumpus> so in general for the wallet to be enabled it is a requirement
1079 2014-08-19 13:58:24 <JohnKenney> it'd help with redhat based distros
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1081 2014-08-19 13:59:30 <wumpus> that's for sure, as the requirement for ecc in openssl would be gone
1082 2014-08-19 13:59:50 <sipa> implementing a PRNG isn't hard though, as it can be based on already implemrnted primitives (hmac sha512 eg)
1083 2014-08-19 14:00:25 <JohnKenney> why not use the system prng?
1084 2014-08-19 14:00:30 * helo shakes the crypto reimplementation stick at you
1085 2014-08-19 14:00:56 <sipa> JohnKenney: you use the system prng to seed the internal one
1086 2014-08-19 14:01:08 <sipa> but not all sources are available on all systems
1087 2014-08-19 14:01:28 <JohnKenney> not sure how well the windows one works
1088 2014-08-19 14:02:13 <edcba> depends on which backdoor is used
1089 2014-08-19 14:02:28 <JohnKenney> if urandom is available it should be pretty good though
1090 2014-08-19 14:02:59 <sipa> you don't want to drain the system entropy with every key generated
1091 2014-08-19 14:03:01 <wumpus> openssl on windows is interesting, it collects entropy from various sources, like event timings, window contents
1092 2014-08-19 14:03:19 <JohnKenney> urandom doesn't drain much entropy
1093 2014-08-19 14:03:25 <sipa> reading 16-32 from various entropy sources and using that to seed your own pool is enough
1094 2014-08-19 14:03:33 <sipa> JohnKenney: exactly as much as you read from it
1095 2014-08-19 14:03:40 <sipa> 16-32 bytes
1096 2014-08-19 14:03:45 <JohnKenney> urandom stretches it more
1097 2014-08-19 14:03:51 <wumpus> generating a key seems a good reason to drain entropy to me
1098 2014-08-19 14:03:52 <sipa> eh, no
1099 2014-08-19 14:04:04 <JohnKenney> than dev/random
1100 2014-08-19 14:04:08 <sipa> it just doesn't block when no entropy is available
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1102 2014-08-19 14:04:14 <sipa> and keeps giving
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1136 2014-08-19 14:30:23 <chmod755> random question: why is there no listing for windows phones on https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet ?
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1138 2014-08-19 14:32:49 <Luke-Jr> chmod755: does any wallet exist for that? do people even use it? XD
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1143 2014-08-19 14:34:11 <wumpus> no idea? what is windows phone? :)
1144 2014-08-19 14:34:33 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: something Microsoft made basically to kill off (real) Linux on phones
1145 2014-08-19 14:35:05 <chmod755> i don't know if windows phone users actually exist
1146 2014-08-19 14:35:59 <chmod755> just found a blockchain.info wallet, but it's unofficial
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1148 2014-08-19 14:36:11 * Squidicuz wants a linux phone...
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1159 2014-08-19 14:51:55 <jgarzik> wumpus, sipa, cfields: re-ACK for python-ized bitcoin-tx tests?  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4624
1160 2014-08-19 14:55:26 <Emzy> chmod755: a friend of mine has a windows phone... so they exist...
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1163 2014-08-19 14:58:12 <helo> anecdotal, disregarding claim
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1165 2014-08-19 15:04:26 <chmod755> Emzy, if it's only one of your friends using it, it's probably not really worth making a nice wallet for it (unless .... his name is Bill Gates)
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1167 2014-08-19 15:05:44 <wumpus> jgarzik: yes, looks good to me, but you say that make distcheck doesn't work yet so that's why I held off my ACK
1168 2014-08-19 15:06:32 <jgarzik> wumpus, make distcheck works
1169 2014-08-19 15:06:48 <wumpus> oh, you didn't mention that, ACK in that case
1170 2014-08-19 15:06:49 <jgarzik> wumpus, fixed yesterday, after cfields found the issue
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1176 2014-08-19 15:07:41 <Emzy> chmod755: HEHE
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1183 2014-08-19 15:17:36 <wumpus> accepting input on stdin for bitcoin-tx is useful too
1184 2014-08-19 15:18:13 <wumpus> for example for private keys for signing, to avoid them leaking to either disk or the command line
1185 2014-08-19 15:18:50 <dsnrk> what is bitcoin-tx? I keep seeing it mentioned but I've never seen it before
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1188 2014-08-19 15:20:30 <wumpus> it's a command-line utility for working with raw transactions
1189 2014-08-19 15:20:54 <dsnrk> link?
1190 2014-08-19 15:21:18 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
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1192 2014-08-19 15:21:35 <wumpus> it is built by default
1193 2014-08-19 15:21:56 <dsnrk> oh, that's why I couldn't find it anywhere. sorry.
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1195 2014-08-19 15:22:15 <wumpus> yes it isn't in any releases yet
1196 2014-08-19 15:22:40 <dsnrk> I build from master anyway, I just didn't realise it was a part of core at all
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1267 2014-08-19 16:32:58 <skinnkavaj> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dz8rz/introducing_blockio_the_zero_tx_fee_api_wallet/
1268 2014-08-19 16:33:04 <skinnkavaj> How can they offer zero fees?
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1270 2014-08-19 16:35:08 <poutine> cooperative miner is one method
1271 2014-08-19 16:35:19 <Dom__> Is there any literature on how much it costs a miner to include a transaction in block? Is there any incentive other than transaction fees for miners to include as many transactions as possible in a block?
1272 2014-08-19 16:35:29 <helo> free like lunch
1273 2014-08-19 16:35:31 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: offtopic for this channel, they're taking about fees _they_ apply, "non-network fees"
1274 2014-08-19 16:35:36 <poutine> "Also, this is not a zero TX fee service, it just doesn't have any additional service fees."
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1276 2014-08-19 16:35:48 <Squidicuz> there is no free lunch.
1277 2014-08-19 16:35:52 <skinnkavaj> Wow, p2pool at 4,6% amazing :)
1278 2014-08-19 16:35:56 <Squidicuz> <3
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1347 2014-08-19 17:23:58 <jgarzik> ah. for want of an underscore.
1348 2014-08-19 17:24:05 <jgarzik> sometimes adding unit tests helps find bugs.
1349 2014-08-19 17:24:23 <jgarzik> maybe this was why my whole-tree conversion to univalue was failing...
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1428 2014-08-19 19:03:33 <Luke-Jr> fwiw, my scriptPubKey/input-txid index is mostly working good with under 2 GB of indexes. just slowish - but mostly IO-bound it looks like
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1430 2014-08-19 19:04:52 <Luke-Jr> but at that size, I should be able to stick it on a tmpfs
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1435 2014-08-19 19:06:20 <ayansh> hi #bitcoin-dev
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1437 2014-08-19 19:09:35 <Luke-Jr> doh, forgot it accesses blk*.dat too
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1440 2014-08-19 19:11:04 <Luke-Jr> wtf, the blockchain is 22 GB nowadays raw -.-
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1449 2014-08-19 19:15:39 <midnightmagic> wumpus: It appears to just be a compilation flag matching issue; in the other descriptions of the problems I was able to find, the language features themselves are either available, or not, and enabled, or not. And the boost libs are either compiled with the language features, or not, and there's a macro which either expands to include an enum, or not..
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1453 2014-08-19 19:18:25 <cfields> midnightmagic: hmm?
1454 2014-08-19 19:19:18 <midnightmagic> wumpus: in the end, I think I'm just bumping into my limits re: pkgsrc vs. system libs and making sure pkgsrc passes through compilation flags uniformly to boost and the applications that use it
1455 2014-08-19 19:19:54 <cfields> midnightmagic: what's the issue?
1456 2014-08-19 19:20:14 <midnightmagic> cfields: I had to replace our single use of ::copy_file() with a plain ::copy() because I couldn't find a way to solve the problem pkgsrc was failing to compile it
1457 2014-08-19 19:21:01 <cfields> what's the compile problem?
1458 2014-08-19 19:21:51 <midnightmagic> cfields: the last problem I had was this one: http://www.robertnitsch.de/notes/cpp/cpp11_boost_filesystem_undefined_reference_copy_file
1459 2014-08-19 19:22:35 <cfields> erm, scoped enums are c++11, no?
1460 2014-08-19 19:22:59 <cfields> oh, it says right there :)
1461 2014-08-19 19:23:36 <cfields> so i suppose pkgsrc builds with c++11 or c++0x, then?
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1463 2014-08-19 19:24:25 <midnightmagic> before that, I had an issue with the m4 boost::chrono macro failing..
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1465 2014-08-19 19:25:09 <midnightmagic> and before that, pkgsrc's x11/qt5-libs at -rHEAD was failing to compile and I didn't want to use qt4-libs because there are some serious pkgsrc vulns listed for it which have been unresolved for years
1466 2014-08-19 19:25:12 <cfields> mm, i'm not sure why. We certainly don't build boost with c++11.
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1468 2014-08-19 19:26:21 <cfields> could you paste that chrono error?
1469 2014-08-19 19:26:22 <midnightmagic> cfields: right, and neither does pkgsrc; but I wasn't able to get the bitcoin pkgsrc entry I'm working on building so the copy_file() doesn't expand to the version with enums
1470 2014-08-19 19:26:49 <midnightmagic> cfields: it was during configure. lemme see if I can recreate it
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1482 2014-08-19 19:36:38 <elichai2> BlueMatt, here?
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1484 2014-08-19 19:38:08 <elichai2> anyone agrees ubuntu bitcoin PPA is safe?
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1493 2014-08-19 19:45:35 <midnightmagic> cfields: http://0bin.net/paste/ECOf5VbJP-o79Woa#rYebVjumMWk5zj3Twx6yz9QvPqfyaabB9RPALykZtQm
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1495 2014-08-19 19:46:17 <midnightmagic> (it's from src/m4/ax_boost_chrono.m4 error message is "configure: error: Could not find a version of the boost_chrono library!")
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1497 2014-08-19 19:47:13 <cfields> midnightmagic: could you paste your entire config.log please?
1498 2014-08-19 19:47:21 <midnightmagic> cfields: sure
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1500 2014-08-19 19:51:50 <midnightmagic> cfields: http://pastebin.com/4QQDSpZY
1501 2014-08-19 19:52:13 <midnightmagic> i haven't traced the actual script yet with the environment in configure, i just worked around it by using --without-chrono
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1503 2014-08-19 19:55:50 <cfields> yea, that's for sure not what you want to do
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1505 2014-08-19 19:56:49 <cfields> boost just lives in /usr ?
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1508 2014-08-19 19:58:20 <midnightmagic> cfields: under pkgsrc, it is built and installed into /v/soft/pkg/* There is an additional system-installed boost.
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1510 2014-08-19 19:58:55 <cfields> which do you want it to find?
1511 2014-08-19 19:59:18 <midnightmagic> cfields: the pkgsrc version for sure. pkgsrc should be entirely self-contained as much as practical
1512 2014-08-19 19:59:34 <cfields> midnightmagic: then you need to give it a --with-boost
1513 2014-08-19 19:59:51 <midnightmagic> does that set an env
1514 2014-08-19 19:59:52 <midnightmagic> ?
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1516 2014-08-19 20:00:13 <cfields> it changes the way the m4's look for boost
1517 2014-08-19 20:00:34 <cfields> --with-boost=/v/soft/pkg/boost
1518 2014-08-19 20:00:39 <cfields> or wherever it lives
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1522 2014-08-19 20:02:24 <midnightmagic> that's supposed to be automatic, but I see the BOOST_* vars are using the system locations
1523 2014-08-19 20:03:01 <cfields> it's not automatic, it just finds the first it can
1524 2014-08-19 20:03:14 <cfields> boost doesn't use pkg-config or anything reasonable, which is why it never builds correctly
1525 2014-08-19 20:03:27 <midnightmagic> no, I mean for pkgsrc. It's supposed to set all that up automatically.
1526 2014-08-19 20:04:08 <cfields> it really can't for boost. not in a way we anticipate, anyway
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1528 2014-08-19 20:05:52 <midnightmagic> pkgsrc knows about configure, and on a per-library basis can configure dependent pkg entries. it magically works with a bunch of other libs
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1530 2014-08-19 20:06:59 <cfields> midnightmagic: clearly it's not working here :)
1531 2014-08-19 20:08:21 <cfields> midnightmagic: what's the correct path for boost?
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1541 2014-08-19 20:15:06 <midnightmagic> cfields: /v/soft/pkg  /include /lib /etc    I'm just looking for the correct pkgsrc way to do it..
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1545 2014-08-19 20:18:21 <cfields> midnightmagic: do me a favor please? try --with-boost=/v/soft/pkg
1546 2014-08-19 20:18:24 <cfields> just to see where it gets us
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1549 2014-08-19 20:19:07 <midnightmagic> cfields: lol ok ok
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1556 2014-08-19 20:23:42 <midnightmagic> cfields: configure functions.
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1568 2014-08-19 20:27:40 <cfields> go figure :p
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1588 2014-08-19 20:45:55 <michagogo> Ooh, choose-your-wallet is much fancier than it was when I last saw it
1589 2014-08-19 20:47:05 <Luke-Jr> http://bpaste.net/show/636037/ <-- is 1.1 seconds too slow for getting information about 526 outputs and when they were spent? :p
1590 2014-08-19 20:47:16 <Luke-Jr> err, I guess 526/2
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1593 2014-08-19 20:52:11 <BlueMatt> elichai2: whats up?
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1598 2014-08-19 20:58:44 <elichai2> BlueMatt, great :) just wanted to ask if the ppa is 100% safe :D
1599 2014-08-19 20:59:04 <elichai2> BlueMatt, ohhh just saw what you said in the other channel :\
1600 2014-08-19 20:59:08 <BlueMatt> see bitcoin
1601 2014-08-19 20:59:10 <BlueMatt> yea
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1604 2014-08-19 21:04:09 <michagogo> elichai2: it is if you trust the launchpad build servers
1605 2014-08-19 21:04:24 <michagogo> (OTOH, if you don't, you shouldn't be using Ubuntu at all...)
1606 2014-08-19 21:05:01 <michagogo> (oh, and also if you either trust Matt or verify the source packages yourself)
1607 2014-08-19 21:07:15 mpmcsweeney has joined
1608 2014-08-19 21:08:09 <elichai2> michagogo, you just ubuntu? (somenone just told me i shouldn't trust ubuntu....)
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1621 2014-08-19 21:19:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: relaynodeclient isn't relaying txn for me (on public.us-west.relay.mattcorallo.com)
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1624 2014-08-19 21:19:56 <BlueMatt> :(
1625 2014-08-19 21:20:03 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: relaying how?
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1634 2014-08-19 21:22:15 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dunno, wfm?
1635 2014-08-19 21:22:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: did you update the relaynodeclient to the latest?
1636 2014-08-19 21:22:38 <BlueMatt> I think I botched the upgrade and old clients may be broken now, despite efforts to make them work
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1638 2014-08-19 21:24:49 <gmaxwell> ag.
1639 2014-08-19 21:24:51 <gmaxwell> er ah
1640 2014-08-19 21:25:08 <BlueMatt> I kinda didnt bother since I think you're about the only one using it ;)
1641 2014-08-19 21:25:12 <BlueMatt> and maybe phantomcircuit
1642 2014-08-19 21:25:29 <michagogo> BlueMatt: o/
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1645 2014-08-19 21:25:41 <BlueMatt> ?
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1647 2014-08-19 21:25:54 <michagogo> BlueMatt: I'm using it, IIRC
1648 2014-08-19 21:25:59 <BlueMatt> oops
1649 2014-08-19 21:26:07 <BlueMatt> well, there's a total of 2
1650 2014-08-19 21:26:14 <BlueMatt> so it looks like the group's all here :p
1651 2014-08-19 21:26:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yep, fixed now.
1652 2014-08-19 21:26:21 <BlueMatt> damn, oh well
1653 2014-08-19 21:26:29 <michagogo> (5ad1ca6f7dac84c9f05ec44d61b0ce5f6e2cc2f48fd9f2919283263e7f46e6a8)
1654 2014-08-19 21:26:32 <helo> BlueMatt: i mention it whenever someone needs a fast node (and use it myself in such situations)
1655 2014-08-19 21:26:34 <BlueMatt> (2 on the new relay node client, that is, several more on block relay)
1656 2014-08-19 21:26:37 ThomasV has joined
1657 2014-08-19 21:26:47 <helo> if you want me to stop spreading the name, let me know ;)
1658 2014-08-19 21:26:59 <BlueMatt> 63649515d9fc5c5e89e48c12bad4ee2ccbb81428d448ef291751380771ca00b7  /home/matt/Documents/Projects/Bitcoin/RelayNode/out/artifacts/RelayNodeClient_jar/RelayNodeClient.jar
1659 2014-08-19 21:27:00 <BlueMatt> is current
1660 2014-08-19 21:27:05 <michagogo> ah
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1662 2014-08-19 21:27:06 <BlueMatt> helo: no, quite the opposite
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1665 2014-08-19 21:27:08 <helo> oh, somethingelse
1666 2014-08-19 21:27:10 <BlueMatt> it only works with more people
1667 2014-08-19 21:27:24 <BlueMatt> (I think gavin's gonna do me a foundation blog post later this week, so that should help)
1668 2014-08-19 21:27:25 <michagogo> BlueMatt: where can I get that?
1669 2014-08-19 21:27:30 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1670 2014-08-19 21:27:36 <BlueMatt> michagogo: should be bitcoin.ninja/RelayNodeClient.jar
1671 2014-08-19 21:27:37 <helo> neat
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1673 2014-08-19 21:27:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Performance is really hurt by a lack of initial mempool sync.
1674 2014-08-19 21:27:51 <BlueMatt> (I need to update that url and do better versioning....)
1675 2014-08-19 21:27:53 <gmaxwell> takes >24 hours to reach the steady state hitrate.
1676 2014-08-19 21:27:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea....
1677 2014-08-19 21:28:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh really?
1678 2014-08-19 21:28:13 <BlueMatt> I usually see it hit >99% regularly after like 2 blocks
1679 2014-08-19 21:28:30 <BlueMatt> and its guaranteed to steady-state after like 2000 transactions or so
1680 2014-08-19 21:28:34 <BlueMatt> so it cant be that long?
1681 2014-08-19 21:28:56 <elichai2> will you ever integrate complex transactions into the bitcoin core? (creating them)
1682 2014-08-19 21:29:00 <michagogo> BlueMatt: okay, updated
1683 2014-08-19 21:29:07 <michagogo> elichai2: define "complex"
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1685 2014-08-19 21:30:02 <elichai2> michagogo, pazzles etc.
1686 2014-08-19 21:30:21 <michagogo> How would you do that?
1687 2014-08-19 21:30:32 <gmaxwell> elichai2: complex transactions are a generic functionality. Any different use needs its own code.
1688 2014-08-19 21:30:38 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1689 2014-08-19 21:30:41 <michagogo> We already have e.g. decodescript
1690 2014-08-19 21:31:10 <michagogo> And with the IsStandard relaxing, you can sendrawtransaction them too if I'm not mistaken
1691 2014-08-19 21:31:14 <elichai2> gmaxwell, i mean creating them, anyone i know that creates these pazzles do it by hand
1692 2014-08-19 21:31:15 <gmaxwell> er. are _not_ a generic functionality.
1693 2014-08-19 21:31:44 <michagogo> elichai2: so what you mean is different types of scripts?
1694 2014-08-19 21:32:12 <michagogo> We definitely won't have a Lego Mindstorms-like drag-and-drop script builder :P
1695 2014-08-19 21:32:16 <elichai2> some kind of complex puzzles
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1697 2014-08-19 21:32:51 <gmaxwell> michagogo: sounds like a useful thing to have for testnet, but also no need to have it part of the reference client itself.
1698 2014-08-19 21:32:58 <michagogo> gmaxwell: right.
1699 2014-08-19 21:33:22 <michagogo> though, that kind of thing (playing with scripts) is really a very advanced kind of thing
1700 2014-08-19 21:33:45 <michagogo> And I don't see an easy way to make it easy to use on testnet but hard to use on mainnet
1701 2014-08-19 21:34:02 <elichai2> michagogo, yes, and really not easy thing, at least until there will be some good tools for that
1702 2014-08-19 21:34:14 <michagogo> elichai2: my point is that that's how it should be
1703 2014-08-19 21:34:45 <michagogo> It's a very advanced thing to be doing, and a very big potential footgun if you try to do it on mainnet and don't know what you're doing
1704 2014-08-19 21:35:19 <elichai2> michagogo, i hear what you say, maybe it's something that externals devs need to develop
1705 2014-08-19 21:36:07 jMyles has joined
1706 2014-08-19 21:36:59 <michagogo> anyway, it's half past midnight here
1707 2014-08-19 21:37:02 <michagogo> goodnight
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1711 2014-08-19 21:37:30 <elichai2> lol, it's early ;)
1712 2014-08-19 21:37:34 <jrick> mempool accepts sendrawtransaction txs without standard checks now?
1713 2014-08-19 21:37:35 <elichai2> (same place :P)
1714 2014-08-19 21:37:51 <elichai2> jrick, no, they just changed a little the standard
1715 2014-08-19 21:37:55 <michagogo> jrick: no, standard checks are just relaxed now
1716 2014-08-19 21:37:56 <elichai2> made it more flexable
1717 2014-08-19 21:38:15 <jrick> oh ok, somehow I read they were turned off completely
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1719 2014-08-19 21:38:37 <michagogo> Looks like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4365
1720 2014-08-19 21:39:33 <jrick> oh just p2sh
1721 2014-08-19 21:39:58 <elichai2> jrick, yeah, they removed the p2sh standard shit
1722 2014-08-19 21:40:23 <jrick> cool, thanks
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1724 2014-08-19 21:40:40 <michagogo> So basically, sounds like standardness checks aren't removed on outputs
1725 2014-08-19 21:40:48 <michagogo> Only on inputs, which makes sense
1726 2014-08-19 21:41:16 <michagogo> Basically, for any weird scripts you just use P2SH, and as long as you don't have a lot of sigops you
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1728 2014-08-19 21:41:26 <michagogo> 'll be able to standardly spend it
1729 2014-08-19 21:41:27 sabfer has joined
1730 2014-08-19 21:41:40 <michagogo> (of course, this isn't in a release yet...)
1731 2014-08-19 21:42:07 <elichai2> yeah, so in master 20of20 is possible?
1732 2014-08-19 21:42:17 <sipa> no, 20 pubkeys don't fit in a p2sh script
1733 2014-08-19 21:42:25 <elichai2> (if i remember ok 20of20 isn't P2SH it's normal multisig)
1734 2014-08-19 21:42:43 <elichai2> sipa, yeah lol, what the max of p2sh? (i can't remember)
1735 2014-08-19 21:43:08 <sipa> elichai2: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/28092/208
1736 2014-08-19 21:43:22 <elichai2> thx
1737 2014-08-19 21:44:16 <elichai2> 15of15 yes :) so it's possible on master?
1738 2014-08-19 21:44:34 <sipa> yes
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1740 2014-08-19 21:45:56 <elichai2> great!
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