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   2 2014-08-27 00:02:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: editing github comments considered harmful
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   5 2014-08-27 00:04:22 <gmaxwell> haha are we managing to repeadily moot each other's comments?
   6 2014-08-27 00:04:30 <sipa> yup
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   8 2014-08-27 00:04:54 <sipa> not that just adding comments would improve that situation
   9 2014-08-27 00:05:04 <sipa> but it would make it more readable for others :)
  10 2014-08-27 00:05:07 <Luke-Jr> lol
  11 2014-08-27 00:05:22 <gmaxwell> yea, right now you need to read that subthread in an interleaved pattern for it to make sense.
  12 2014-08-27 00:05:53 <sipa> [expand the comments dag]
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  14 2014-08-27 00:06:15 <sipa> hey
  15 2014-08-27 00:06:16 <Luke-Jr> too bad GitHub won't show you the edit history
  16 2014-08-27 00:06:27 <sipa> if travis likes headersfirst, can we just merge? :p
  17 2014-08-27 00:07:30 <gmaxwell> I'm okay with merging headersfirst but we cannot release without a system test on it.
  18 2014-08-27 00:08:05 <gmaxwell> Merging would be useful because we'll stop wasting your time rebasing, and we'll get more testing on it with it in master.
  19 2014-08-27 00:08:14 <sipa> i'm actually not okay with merging, as it means we're unable to do any tests on future pulls
  20 2014-08-27 00:08:55 <gmaxwell> oh crap, I didn't consider that. /me duncecap
  21 2014-08-27 00:09:18 <sipa> now, travis *SHOULD* fail on it
  22 2014-08-27 00:11:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: Can secp256k1 be changed to a coding style where {} are required instead of single statement if's only being seperated by indentation?  I don't like to style-wonk but unbraced ifs are a known source of bugs. (I personally prefer a style where unbraced is only allowed only if its all one line; but always brace is probably slightly less failure prone)
  23 2014-08-27 00:12:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: ack
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  26 2014-08-27 00:14:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: i should also clang-format it
  27 2014-08-27 00:16:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: also, it might be helpful to prefix the file names. For example, lto in MSVC has a fit if there are object files anywhere in the project with duplicate names. so generic source files like 'util' might cause problems for some parties embeding the librrary.
  28 2014-08-27 00:16:46 <sipa> pfff :)
  29 2014-08-27 00:17:01 <sipa> i find it annoying enough that all functions are prefixed
  30 2014-08-27 00:17:22 <gmaxwell> The files are less annoying than functions. :P
  31 2014-08-27 00:17:42 <sipa> but but! i use an 8.3 filename length fs!
  32 2014-08-27 00:17:50 <sipa> actually, nvm
  33 2014-08-27 00:18:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: also, can we take all the places with var-arrays and make them constants? (and add asserts to check that the constants are large enough?)
  34 2014-08-27 00:18:26 <sipa> there should only be a few of those, but sure
  35 2014-08-27 00:18:52 <sipa> or require an array of sufficient size to be passed in as argument, when we'd normally allocate one on the stack
  36 2014-08-27 00:19:12 <gmaxwell> There are only a few.  Well, in particular, there is kind of a weird one in that the batch inversion used during setup is huge, and is never used with values anywhere near as big elsewhere.
  37 2014-08-27 00:19:40 <gmaxwell> (I noticed this while trying to determine the amount of stack required)
  38 2014-08-27 00:19:58 <sipa> which may be an argument in favor of passing in array
  39 2014-08-27 00:20:05 <sipa> as that allows that huge array to be on the heap
  40 2014-08-27 00:20:16 <sipa> avoiding the need for a large stack
  41 2014-08-27 00:20:35 <gmaxwell> I believe that array turning setup is the peak stack user currently.
  42 2014-08-27 00:21:34 <gmaxwell> (also getting rid of the var-arrays is needed both for C89 and C++ compatiblity, also: functions that use var arrays are slightly slower due to some additional management code that must be emitted)
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  44 2014-08-27 00:22:52 <sipa> go fix it :)
  45 2014-08-27 00:23:42 <gmaxwell> yea yea, wanted to clear it with you before starting on it.
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  47 2014-08-27 00:24:34 <sipa> damn, at my parent's place in belgium
  48 2014-08-27 00:24:48 <sipa> how do these people survive with a 1.5 Mbit connection (apparently)?
  49 2014-08-27 00:25:14 <sipa> trying to download the blockchain takes several seconds per block, and kills pretty much all other surfing activity
  50 2014-08-27 00:27:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: if its killing other stuff sounds like bufferbloat.
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 117 2014-08-27 02:34:14 <extor> Why does this say it's under active development but references mtgox as an exchange rate source and has no updates for a year? https://www.drupal.org/project/uc_bitcoin
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 121 2014-08-27 02:38:01 <justanotheruser> extor: probably because it isn't active and you have to be active to change the page to saying they're inactive
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 150 2014-08-27 03:32:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so its now a rule that we will only be required to be able to reorg 288 blocks?
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 200 2014-08-27 04:47:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: absolutely not.
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 213 2014-08-27 05:00:31 <therealNano> I sent this transaction over 8 hours ago. Still hasn't confirmed. Blockchain says 'none standard' transaction. Over 6k. Help!
 214 2014-08-27 05:00:33 <therealNano>  https://blockchain.info/tx/c7594d44b14fb8ed1e36882a37b022a9fd8e9d95c00e6964a8fdf50e574dac99
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 220 2014-08-27 05:16:22 <jrick> gmaxwell: my c++ sucks and no idea how correct this is or even compiles, but here's what I came up with http://sprunge.us/jFHE
 221 2014-08-27 05:17:00 <jrick> *or if it
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 225 2014-08-27 05:30:10 <jrick> since this is a memory buffer I'd think it would make sense to put that max size in a constructor, but a quick grep shows it's being used for pretty much anything and everything :(
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 588 2014-08-27 13:51:58 <drawingthesun> has anyone read over this yet?
 589 2014-08-27 13:51:58 <drawingthesun> https://github.com/skycoin/whitepapers/blob/master/README.md
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 595 2014-08-27 13:58:33 <RAM518> skycoin seems interesting but these properties in particular from the whitepaper:
 596 2014-08-27 13:58:40 <RAM518> you cannot say one thing to A and another thing to B
 597 2014-08-27 13:58:42 <RAM518> the communication is public
 598 2014-08-27 13:58:49 <RAM518> these seem hard to enforce.
 599 2014-08-27 13:59:08 <RAM518> and this:
 600 2014-08-27 13:59:14 <RAM518> once publish something, it cannot be easily unpublished
 601 2014-08-27 13:59:18 <RAM518> seems meaningless
 602 2014-08-27 13:59:32 teward has quit (Quit: ERROR: Segmentation Fault in ZNC: admin.so: 56)
 603 2014-08-27 14:00:14 <t7> looks like another system that needs proof of id
 604 2014-08-27 14:00:25 <t7> e.g. no sock puppets
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 606 2014-08-27 14:01:43 <RAM518> Each voting decision is a hash pair (A,B). A is the hash of the parent of the block and B is the hash of the block.
 607 2014-08-27 14:01:45 <RAM518> Each node votes on the next block it believes should be the consensus block.
 608 2014-08-27 14:02:04 <RAM518> This seems much more vulnerable to a 51% attack than bitcoin
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 623 2014-08-27 14:17:23 <helo> right, sock puppet attack
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 712 2014-08-27 15:38:01 <Jouke> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2eq8gi/getutxos_a_convenient_way_to_crash_bitcoind/
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 716 2014-08-27 15:41:00 <hearn> Jouke: it doesn't crash. i tried it against my own bitcoind
 717 2014-08-27 15:41:05 <hearn> memory usage spiked for a moment and then came down again
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 720 2014-08-27 15:41:55 <Luke-Jr> hearn: on  32-bit or 64-bit?
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 722 2014-08-27 15:42:18 <hearn> that was a 64 bit test
 723 2014-08-27 15:42:29 <Luke-Jr> I'd be surprised if you could ever trigger bad_alloc on 64-bit
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 725 2014-08-27 15:42:39 <hearn> well you can still run out of ram
 726 2014-08-27 15:42:42 <Luke-Jr> short of allocating more memory than system+swap combined
 727 2014-08-27 15:42:46 <hearn> anywyay, i have a fix
 728 2014-08-27 15:42:51 <Luke-Jr> actual OOM usually manufests as a kill
 729 2014-08-27 15:43:10 <hearn> right. it depends on what environment you're in. at some point we'll have to tackle memory limiting in a more rigorous way
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 733 2014-08-27 15:47:14 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, hearn: rlimit permits testing that on 64-bit
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 761 2014-08-27 16:00:44 <wumpus> why he hell would anyone post that to reddit, it's not in any release
 762 2014-08-27 16:03:04 kermit has joined
 763 2014-08-27 16:03:24 <hearn> hmm
 764 2014-08-27 16:03:26 <wumpus> so conformal is gloating that they found a bug in the unreleased master version of bitcoind
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 766 2014-08-27 16:03:55 <hearn> well, it's sort of a bug. it's memory usage that is higher than necessary, but we don't really have a hard limit where we can say "using more than X megabytes of memory is a bug and less is acceptable". still, easy to fix.
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 770 2014-08-27 16:04:17 <jintelletec> looking for a strong C++.C++11 engineer for a Bitcoin project remote
 771 2014-08-27 16:04:17 <wumpus> woohoo
 772 2014-08-27 16:04:19 <hearn> we could run into the same problem though if there's ever a request that involves calculating some big structures
 773 2014-08-27 16:04:28 <jintelletec> anyone around
 774 2014-08-27 16:04:31 <jintelletec> ?
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 776 2014-08-27 16:04:40 <hearn> hmm, does anyone know how to see the bitcoind logs in the new travis builds?
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 781 2014-08-27 16:12:02 <hearn> wumpus: i submitted a fix.
 782 2014-08-27 16:12:12 <hearn> wumpus: so what is the path for getting the feature merged back in?
 783 2014-08-27 16:12:17 <wumpus> I've already reverted it, don't want to weather this shitstorm
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 792 2014-08-27 16:13:12 <hearn> so, you're saying it's reverted for good because of something that can be fixed with an additional ten lines of code?
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 794 2014-08-27 16:13:44 <wumpus> nono, not because of that
 795 2014-08-27 16:13:51 cbeams has joined
 796 2014-08-27 16:13:53 <wumpus> because everyone seems to be against the feature in the first place
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 799 2014-08-27 16:14:09 <hearn> everyone except me, gavin, maaku, you were saying you were ok with it too just a few days ago
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 801 2014-08-27 16:14:21 <hearn> so not actually everyone
 802 2014-08-27 16:14:27 <hearn> i think even peter decided it was ok in the end
 803 2014-08-27 16:14:27 <wumpus> no, not actually everyone
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 807 2014-08-27 16:15:20 <hearn> do you have any _actionable_ feedback i can actually address?
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 811 2014-08-27 16:16:18 <wumpus> something with so many detractors isn't worth the risk of breaking the P2P code
 812 2014-08-27 16:17:15 <hearn> so, no then
 813 2014-08-27 16:17:16 <wumpus> first the P2P code needs better test, and more DoS constraints, like you say yourself
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 815 2014-08-27 16:17:57 <hearn> doing anti-DoS really well is probably a years worth of work
 816 2014-08-27 16:18:00 <wumpus> look - I feel for you, they try to break your patch on purpose because they don't like it
 817 2014-08-27 16:18:47 <hearn> yes, they do. what's more there are lots of ways to break bitcoin core. just connect 120 times to every peer and it's game over. so this sort of thing does not impress me much. real code that improves testability and anti-DoS systems would impress me.
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 823 2014-08-27 16:23:36 <wumpus> huh, I doubt connecting 120 times will crash a node
 824 2014-08-27 16:23:57 <jgarzik> no, just DoS's the network
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 827 2014-08-27 16:24:21 <wumpus> oh, right, that's easy
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 832 2014-08-27 16:27:01 <hearn> wumpus: same thing, right. if clients can't connect because a node is crashed vs refusing connections, the impact is similar
 833 2014-08-27 16:27:10 <hearn> at least for regular end users on wallets they don't keep running all the time
 834 2014-08-27 16:27:51 <wumpus> I don't understand drak, at one point he was pushing for this to be merged, even posted 'Thank you' when it was, the next he's one of the most adamant people against it
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 837 2014-08-27 16:29:12 <wumpus> hearn: it's not the same thing, just blocking the ports is temporary, whereas crashes would be permanent (at least until the node owners do a restart)
 838 2014-08-27 16:31:55 <hearn> temporary until what?
 839 2014-08-27 16:32:00 <hearn> the admin intervenes and restarts?
 840 2014-08-27 16:32:07 <wumpus> temporary until someone takes the attacker offline
 841 2014-08-27 16:32:13 <wumpus> or the attacker stops
 842 2014-08-27 16:32:40 <hearn> right. i think that's the definition of a successful attack :) don't get me wrong. i'd like to see core restart itself if it crashes
 843 2014-08-27 16:32:50 <hearn> but i don't see how that's any different to another kind of dos attack
 844 2014-08-27 16:33:01 <wumpus> restrting automatically after a crash makes some kinds of exploits easier
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 846 2014-08-27 16:33:40 <wumpus> I'm not arguing for that
 847 2014-08-27 16:34:19 <hearn> and others harder?
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 849 2014-08-27 16:34:36 <wumpus> a crash vulnerability is much more serious than a dos, I don't see the point of arguing this with you
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 851 2014-08-27 16:35:09 <hearn> my point is, currently the impact to end users would be the same assuming an even basic attacker who can keep it up for a while. what's more it doesn't necessarily take a dos attack to cause a crash. any old bug can do that.
 852 2014-08-27 16:38:08 <hearn> i am actually unable to reproduce dhill's crash even when i run many such queries in parallel
 853 2014-08-27 16:38:34 <Luke-Jr> with 32-bit or jgarzik's rlimit suggestion?
 854 2014-08-27 16:39:35 <hearn> right, i can make bitcoind crash at any level by setting the rlimit to something low
 855 2014-08-27 16:40:00 <Luke-Jr> 2 GB is a reasonable rlimit to test at
 856 2014-08-27 16:40:17 <hearn> it does take up a fair bit of ram - but i fired 10 such queries in parallel and it went up to about 1.8gig and i did see a bad_alloc. but bitcoind is still there.
 857 2014-08-27 16:40:22 <hearn> no crash
 858 2014-08-27 16:40:40 <hearn> now it's back to 200mb
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 861 2014-08-27 16:42:56 <Luke-Jr> hearn: you can always fork BCCore. we shouldn't be scared of forks.
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 863 2014-08-27 16:45:07 <hearn> yes, i've been thinking about that a lot lately. around the time i quit google, i wanted to work on bitcoin full time, and do a mix of grungy foundation-laying stuff and cool apps stuff. i thought back then the primary limiting factor was money. but this summer it's become clear that at this time, NO changes to the protocol can be made in any kind of sane way.
 864 2014-08-27 16:45:09 <hearn> even gavin's own changes get reverted because "some people didn't like it". this is not a predictable environment and i cannot reasonably raise money to work on features when they will almost certainly turn into a giant "shitstorm" as wumpus puts it.
 865 2014-08-27 16:45:30 <hearn> i suppose at this point my only option is to maintain a patch set
 866 2014-08-27 16:46:04 <Luke-Jr> it's somewhat a shame we encourage people to rebase stuff. it makes maintaining a fork harder.
 867 2014-08-27 16:46:07 <hearn> it would be deeply misleading for anyone to ask for money at this point to "do core development" unless they actually work for the foundation.
 868 2014-08-27 16:46:18 <hearn> anyway
 869 2014-08-27 16:46:25 <hearn> that's a challenge for tomorrow
 870 2014-08-27 16:46:28 <Luke-Jr> hearn: Foundation has nothing to do with it. as you just said, Gavin's stuff gets reverted too.
 871 2014-08-27 16:46:47 <hearn> yes, that's true. but he can still ask for money anyway :)
 872 2014-08-27 16:47:35 <wumpus> hearn: I suggest you try to do it outside the protocol
 873 2014-08-27 16:47:43 <super3> hearn: i always thought that some of the core developers should be paid by the community
 874 2014-08-27 16:47:56 <jgarzik> part of the problem with getutxos is that the functionality _already exists_
 875 2014-08-27 16:48:01 <jgarzik> in quadruplicate
 876 2014-08-27 16:48:03 <kgk> super3: That is what lighthouse is for :)
 877 2014-08-27 16:48:08 <super3> and the features developed should be a mix of protocol stuff, and features that the users want
 878 2014-08-27 16:48:11 <hearn> no. that would clearly be worse. i think it's better to make a fork at this point. this problem is larger than getutxo. besides any replacement protocol would have the same issues - you'd want it to be DoS resistant and so on.
 879 2014-08-27 16:48:21 <super3> how far along is lighthouse
 880 2014-08-27 16:48:24 <hearn> i mean using HTTP instead doesn't magically resolve these issues
 881 2014-08-27 16:48:41 <hearn> super3: it's going to be open sourced w/ downloads next week if all goes according to plan. i'm awaiting the award money from olivier
 882 2014-08-27 16:48:45 <hearn> (As a beta)
 883 2014-08-27 16:48:55 <hearn> (it's not finished enough to be v1 yet)
 884 2014-08-27 16:48:56 <jgarzik> You can get the information today via existing APIs.
 885 2014-08-27 16:50:01 <hearn> yes, you can say the same for anything though. why have SPV wallets at all when blockchain.info exists. outsourcing to a trusted third party solves so many problems!
 886 2014-08-27 16:50:30 <sipa> we have SPV wallets because they add security - under SPV assumptions
 887 2014-08-27 16:50:37 <jgarzik> RPC getutxo does not require a centralized third party.
 888 2014-08-27 16:50:53 <Luke-Jr> outsourcing to an untrusted third party is better? :P
 889 2014-08-27 16:51:04 <jgarzik> querying the N multiple blockchain query services also achieves the same result
 890 2014-08-27 16:51:10 <jgarzik> with zero bitcoind changes
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 892 2014-08-27 16:51:14 <hearn> outsourcing to a group of assumed-non-cooperating third parties is basically the entire bitcoin model, right ;)
 893 2014-08-27 16:51:19 <sipa> putting getutxos in the core network functionality to me is just decentralization because decentralization, without it actually adding anything
 894 2014-08-27 16:51:29 <hearn> i mean, i don't trust ghash.io, but i trust that together the other pools will stop them abusing their position
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 897 2014-08-27 16:52:05 <sipa> for a while i was confused with the argument that script running partially authenticates gettxout data, and it is true - but not the spentness
 898 2014-08-27 16:52:13 <aphorise> What kind of donations does the foundation normally expect and what do they recieve if anything?  :-)
 899 2014-08-27 16:52:31 <hearn> aphorise: foundation gets most donations from corporations and runs significantly in the red at the moment
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 902 2014-08-27 16:52:44 <jgarzik> excellent question.  #include <foundation_transparency.h>
 903 2014-08-27 16:52:47 <jgarzik> Error: header not found
 904 2014-08-27 16:52:50 <super3> lol
 905 2014-08-27 16:52:55 <hearn> erm, no
 906 2014-08-27 16:53:03 <hearn> they gave financials and quite clearly discussed donations at the last AGM
 907 2014-08-27 16:53:07 <sipa> i believe they are pretty transparent
 908 2014-08-27 16:53:11 <sipa> but i don't really care
 909 2014-08-27 16:53:19 <kgk> jgarzik: do any wallets actually connect to more than one api that though?
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 911 2014-08-27 16:53:39 <kgk> for getting the utxo's
 912 2014-08-27 16:53:45 akstunt600 has joined
 913 2014-08-27 16:53:55 <kgk> I think in practice they just pick one and use it, for now
 914 2014-08-27 16:54:06 <sipa> and that's still better than trusting a random peer
 915 2014-08-27 16:54:12 <hearn> sipa: we have SPV wallets because a small number of people have worked for years to create them, including upgrading the protocol. if we were trying to make SPV work today they simply wouldn't exist at all
 916 2014-08-27 16:54:18 <jgarzik> Foundation gave gross financials, but failed to provide any meaningful breakdown.  The reports are irregular not periodic.  Many existing open questions remain unanswered, such as:  what are they doing with their mining income?
 917 2014-08-27 16:54:21 <hearn> and we'd _all_ be using blockchain.info
 918 2014-08-27 16:54:28 <aphorise> I'm just wondering what if any returns could be if donation is made.... other than obvious evalution progression in protocle... and to this end what would be a significant enough donation.
 919 2014-08-27 16:54:28 <hearn> all the while saying how great decentralised currencies are
 920 2014-08-27 16:54:31 <jgarzik> did you even know BF had mining income, since it wasn't reported?
 921 2014-08-27 16:54:50 <kgk> yeah. isn't the whole point not to have to run a server?
 922 2014-08-27 16:54:57 <hearn> aphorise: donators do not get to pick what the donations are spent on
 923 2014-08-27 16:55:20 <jgarzik> hearn, clearly hyperbole.  There are >5 block explorer sites, and >3 block explorer open source projects.
 924 2014-08-27 16:55:31 <hearn> eh? i'm talking about wallets now
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 926 2014-08-27 16:55:45 <hearn> and it was clearly shorthand for "we'd all be using web wallets that store the private keys in javascript"
 927 2014-08-27 16:55:51 <kgk> jgarzik: and now wallets have to depend on those central services not going out of business
 928 2014-08-27 16:56:02 <kgk> and they have to implement more than one api
 929 2014-08-27 16:56:03 <aphorise> hearn - I'm not implying that - I ment by way of contact / support for related bitcoin activity that we are doing... that sort of thing
 930 2014-08-27 16:56:10 <jgarzik> kgk, wrong
 931 2014-08-27 16:56:13 <jgarzik> kgk, read again
 932 2014-08-27 16:56:15 <hearn> let's be dead clear about this. SPV wallets would not exist if development started today. you guys would ALL shoot the needed features down in flames, assuming anyone even tried.
 933 2014-08-27 16:56:18 <jgarzik> kgk, "...open source projects..."
 934 2014-08-27 16:56:32 <hearn> there'd be no bloom filtering and running a p2p wallet would be some theoretical thing that only the hardest of hard core do
 935 2014-08-27 16:56:41 <sipa> hearn: and we made changes to the protocol to make SPV security work in practice; in my opinion getutxos still doesn't add anything, except convenience for you
 936 2014-08-27 16:56:48 <jgarzik> +100
 937 2014-08-27 16:56:50 <hearn> aphorise: not sure i understand the question?
 938 2014-08-27 16:56:59 <jgarzik> hearn, You're just mad cause it's Your Feature
 939 2014-08-27 16:57:00 <kgk> wouldn't matter. if I ship an iphone wallet using blockchain.info
 940 2014-08-27 16:57:04 <jgarzik> hearn, but you cannot apply that rule generally
 941 2014-08-27 16:57:08 <kgk> then if blockchain.info's api goes down, I'm screwed
 942 2014-08-27 16:57:09 <jgarzik> hearn, other changes do get in
 943 2014-08-27 16:57:11 <kgk> doesn't amtter if it's open source
 944 2014-08-27 16:57:12 <hearn> sipa: just imagine trying to add it today. all the same arguments would come up. the same arguments would be made. people would say "nodes could lie through omission, this can never work, run a block explorer"
 945 2014-08-27 16:57:27 <hearn> but probably nobody would even try
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 947 2014-08-27 16:57:43 <sipa> hearn: and i understand that from the viewpoint "this is a trivial change that has no reason not to exist", this must feel extremely frustrating
 948 2014-08-27 16:57:46 <hearn> anyone who looks at that ridiculous thread would conclude they have better things to do than waste their life in endless circular arguments with people who did not read
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 950 2014-08-27 16:58:06 <sipa> i think i understand your arguments well, but i still disagree
 951 2014-08-27 16:58:13 <hearn> heck jgarzik has stated several times he doesn't want mempool to be used by SPV clients
 952 2014-08-27 16:58:14 <super3> kgk: fallback apis would be a smart move
 953 2014-08-27 16:58:23 <hearn> so that right there would have been a fatal problem
 954 2014-08-27 16:58:25 <aphorise> hearn  seems - wanting to act on good will / intent in the communit does not get you through to any1 :-)  I'm wondering if a donation to the foundation could expect some technical return such as consultation (for example).
 955 2014-08-27 16:58:34 <jgarzik> hearn, SPV clients don't use "mempool" message
 956 2014-08-27 16:58:36 <hearn> aphorise: no, donations are just that - donations
 957 2014-08-27 16:58:38 <hearn> wtf jeff
 958 2014-08-27 16:58:40 <hearn> yes they do
 959 2014-08-27 16:58:43 <kgk> right.... so now developers have to pick 2-3 centralized api's and integrate them all? that's a lot of testing and work, just for something this simple
 960 2014-08-27 16:58:43 <btcdrak> hearn: https://blog.conformal.com/bip0064-not-yet/
 961 2014-08-27 16:58:45 <hearn> i know this because i wrote the code to do that
 962 2014-08-27 16:58:46 <jgarzik> hearn, why???
 963 2014-08-27 16:58:49 <jgarzik> hearn, that's dumb
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 965 2014-08-27 16:59:29 <hearn> jeff, you've forgotten. here is the original pull request that YOU WROTE
 966 2014-08-27 16:59:29 <hearn> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1470
 967 2014-08-27 16:59:32 <hearn> "This adds the "mempool" P2P command, which returns the first 50,000 entries in the TX memory pool (CInv vectors are capped at 50,000 already). SPV clients and other nodes may use this command following a block sync-up, to ensure they have the latest snapshot of the collective network."
 968 2014-08-27 16:59:45 <hearn> this is absurd. you've totally changed your technical opinion and don't even remember!
 969 2014-08-27 17:00:01 <btcdrak> hearn: this getutxo over p2p patch is starting to become comical to the greater community
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 972 2014-08-27 17:00:46 <super3> kgk: hard to really call anything regarding bitcoin development and apps particularly simple
 973 2014-08-27 17:00:54 <jgarzik> hearn, further discussion on IRC indicated that it would be of best use for miners and those who can actually verify that data
 974 2014-08-27 17:00:59 <btcdrak> hearn:  http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2eq8gi/getutxos_a_convenient_way_to_crash_bitcoind/
 975 2014-08-27 17:01:01 <jgarzik> hearn, you're right that I should have updated the text
 976 2014-08-27 17:01:04 <kgk> super3: true hehe :)
 977 2014-08-27 17:01:15 <hearn> btcdrak: i can't actually reproduce that crash, but assuming it can happen i already wrote a fix.
 978 2014-08-27 17:01:41 <super3> kgk: although blockchain goes down occasionally, which makes many of us sad
 979 2014-08-27 17:02:05 <super3> kik: uh there is always bitcore
 980 2014-08-27 17:02:08 <kgk> super3: so in today's world, many iphone and android apps just crash in that case. since they only implement one
 981 2014-08-27 17:02:10 <hearn> jgarzik: this is not a "whoops i forgot to update the text". you just claimed wallets don't use it, shouldn't use it, and yet were adamant back then that this was the driving reason.
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 983 2014-08-27 17:02:17 <hearn> do you agree that SPV wallets would be impossible to implement today?
 984 2014-08-27 17:02:20 <hearn> i cannot reach any other conclusion
 985 2014-08-27 17:02:30 <jgarzik> no, that's just silly
 986 2014-08-27 17:03:02 <jgarzik> It's just an unfortunate situation where you implemented behavior already implemented elsewhere.
 987 2014-08-27 17:03:12 <jgarzik> Kinda like trying to shove TCP into the IP protocol.
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 989 2014-08-27 17:03:54 <super3> kik: i mean the thing is that your using a centralized serviced to connect to a P2P net
 990 2014-08-27 17:04:00 <hearn> all of bitcoin is implementing functionality already available elsewhere (visa)
 991 2014-08-27 17:04:03 <super3> kik: the service itself can go down
 992 2014-08-27 17:04:16 <sipa> visa isn't trustless
 993 2014-08-27 17:04:18 <super3> whoops kgk
 994 2014-08-27 17:04:24 <sipa> that's what bitcoin adds
 995 2014-08-27 17:04:27 <kgk> lol was wondering if tehre was a kik in here
 996 2014-08-27 17:04:29 <hearn> neither is SPV nor even bitcoin itself. it just lowers needed trust.
 997 2014-08-27 17:04:40 <hearn> even with a full node you can get double spent, even if you wait for confirmations
 998 2014-08-27 17:04:50 <hearn> we play with statistics and say it can't happen, but ultimately, all we can do is drive down the risks.
 999 2014-08-27 17:04:58 <super3> kgk: basically if you have your connection to the network client side you solve that problem
1000 2014-08-27 17:05:06 <super3> but with much much added tech complexity
1001 2014-08-27 17:05:11 <jgarzik> hearn, re-read.  that's not "don't implement" but "not everything is appropriate at the lowest layer"
1002 2014-08-27 17:05:24 <super3> so your solutions are:
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1004 2014-08-27 17:05:33 <kgk> super3: the problem of what happens when the blockchain.info server goes down?
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1008 2014-08-27 17:05:46 <super3> 1) a good library that implements it client side
1009 2014-08-27 17:06:07 <super3> 2) a generalized wrapper that has many centralized api in one
1010 2014-08-27 17:06:26 <super3> so if blockchain.info goes down, you just move on to the next one
1011 2014-08-27 17:07:00 <kgk> it's not just that simple. now you have to regression test your app for every 3rd party api you support. it's a bigger burden than it seems.
1012 2014-08-27 17:07:10 <Luke-Jr> super3: see topic, no bc.i support ;)
1013 2014-08-27 17:08:13 <kgk> super3: in practice, wallet developers are choosing just one right now.
1014 2014-08-27 17:08:52 <jgarzik> The main reason I abstained on getutxos was that it is IMO a special case.  We already maintain the index, so it is cheap to export from an implementation standpoint.  100% understandable in that regard.
1015 2014-08-27 17:09:05 <jgarzik> But that says nothing about whether or not it is a good idea.
1016 2014-08-27 17:09:20 <jgarzik> (obviously, abstention changed...)
1017 2014-08-27 17:09:28 <jgarzik> But it's a fair point.
1018 2014-08-27 17:09:33 <super3> kgk: sure, programmers are not going to do more work than they need to
1019 2014-08-27 17:09:40 <hearn> super3: then the question is, what happens when a new site is created?
1020 2014-08-27 17:09:52 <hearn> super3: it'd be convenient if there was a way to learn about them automatically. we could also standardise the protocol they speak.
1021 2014-08-27 17:09:56 <hearn> super3: that'd also simplify things.
1022 2014-08-27 17:10:15 <hearn> super3: and it'd be great if there was a one-click download anyone could run to create a new site that could serve this data.
1023 2014-08-27 17:10:21 <hearn> super3: that'd be awesome for decentralisation
1024 2014-08-27 17:10:26 <hearn> super3: do you see where i'm going with this?
1025 2014-08-27 17:10:27 <kgk> LOL
1026 2014-08-27 17:10:47 <super3> does it use DHTs?
1027 2014-08-27 17:11:01 <jgarzik> Luckily https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4657 is decentralized and can help with that
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1029 2014-08-27 17:14:33 <Luke-Jr> in theory, it might be possible to use the service bits for a kind of merkle root of supported features, and have a C library to help determine what is in the set
1030 2014-08-27 17:15:06 <kgk> <newb question> is there a protocol for ensuring that I can find a node with the features I require?
1031 2014-08-27 17:15:33 <hearn> kgk: you mean currently?
1032 2014-08-27 17:15:34 <Luke-Jr> kgk: service bits right now, but there are only so many of them so they're not allocated often
1033 2014-08-27 17:15:40 <kgk> every spv wallet needs to be able to ask for the utxo's. so if I'm a wallet developer I need to be able to quickly say "connect to a peer that supports utxo fetching"
1034 2014-08-27 17:16:02 <kgk> ^would I be able to do that easily?
1035 2014-08-27 17:16:20 <Luke-Jr> kgk: if a service bit were allocated for it
1036 2014-08-27 17:16:27 <wumpus> well, getutxos would have had a feature flag allocated, so you could use that to find nodes that supported it
1037 2014-08-27 17:16:32 <Luke-Jr> or if you just remember peers which do/don't have it
1038 2014-08-27 17:16:41 <kgk> hmm, that could work
1039 2014-08-27 17:17:29 <kgk> then at least I could make a dns seeder that only gives me nodes that are useful for spv wallets.
1040 2014-08-27 17:18:21 <Luke-Jr> kgk: it would be so much saner to implement a generic bitcoin-p2p library which you can use
1041 2014-08-27 17:18:50 <kgk> for fetching utxo's?
1042 2014-08-27 17:19:20 <Luke-Jr> kgk: for finding peers which support it
1043 2014-08-27 17:19:23 <Luke-Jr> as opposed to a DNS seed
1044 2014-08-27 17:19:29 <kgk> oh ic
1045 2014-08-27 17:19:33 <kgk> that would be great in general :)
1046 2014-08-27 17:19:48 <Luke-Jr> kgk: also consider that nodes could advertise features then refuse to support them
1047 2014-08-27 17:19:58 <Luke-Jr> there is  no guarantee nodes will behave like you want
1048 2014-08-27 17:20:14 <hearn> what would this generic bitcoin-p2p library do, exactly
1049 2014-08-27 17:20:43 <Luke-Jr> hearn: let you define what features you want or need, and find peers with it
1050 2014-08-27 17:20:52 <Luke-Jr> and remember IPs for future use
1051 2014-08-27 17:21:16 <Luke-Jr> possibly do the actual p2p IO and just issue callbacks for commands too
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1054 2014-08-27 17:21:58 <hearn> that's basically what bitcoin already does, isn't it
1055 2014-08-27 17:22:05 <Luke-Jr> hearn: it's part of it, yes
1056 2014-08-27 17:22:14 <Luke-Jr> hearn: the point of a library is so your SPV nodes can do it too
1057 2014-08-27 17:22:41 <hearn> bitcoinj already has a bit of support for this. it knows how to select from the peers its connected to, at least. so far there was no need to go further.
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1062 2014-08-27 17:23:19 <jrick> hearn: (replying to your reddit post) we just found out about it yesterday, while adding it to our wire protocol package
1063 2014-08-27 17:23:58 <hearn> jrick: ok, then i take it back. i do think this shows how code in master gets more testing than code on a branch though.
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1066 2014-08-27 17:24:22 <hearn> i guess you must have been waiting for the commit before deciding to implement it
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1074 2014-08-27 17:31:56 <kgk> Luke-Jr: for your earlier comment: it's ok if they don't support a feature they advertise. the client would just label it as misbehaving and connect to another peer
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1081 2014-08-27 17:37:25 <cfields> wumpus: looking into the build weirdness from today, seems there are a few different things going on
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1093 2014-08-27 17:57:51 <CryptoDustin> http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111142124/3898460-8864152835-
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1097 2014-08-27 18:01:23 <jgarzik> Pushing back on the btcd blog post hyperbole a bit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2eq8gi/getutxos_a_convenient_way_to_crash_bitcoind/ck2193b
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1112 2014-08-27 18:08:45 <jgarzik> wumpus, RE ^
1113 2014-08-27 18:08:56 <jgarzik> wumpus, I know it can be frustrating, both for maintainer and contributor
1114 2014-08-27 18:09:23 <jgarzik> wumpus, It is a normal part of the process that merging something Wakes More People Up, both in terms of review and testing.
1115 2014-08-27 18:10:12 <jgarzik> wumpus, It sucks to revert, but reverting soon after merge is easiest, and is not uncommon.
1116 2014-08-27 18:10:58 <jgarzik> wumpus, On rare occasions, sometimes you have to merge something to prod people to life
1117 2014-08-27 18:11:13 <wumpus> jgarzik: indeed
1118 2014-08-27 18:11:24 <jgarzik> I trust the process to get it right, more than my or wumpus' or sipa's or gmaxwell's decisions
1119 2014-08-27 18:11:34 <wumpus> jgarzik: seems that merging things is the only way to get significant testing and review, that's not a good way to have things though
1120 2014-08-27 18:11:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: things everyone likes get testing and review, it's things that many people don't like.
1121 2014-08-27 18:11:56 <gmaxwell> that don't get review.
1122 2014-08-27 18:11:57 <jgarzik> wumpus, 100% agreed, but Linux kernel and other projects have same problem without much solution :(
1123 2014-08-27 18:11:57 <Luke-Jr> "No, we weren't examining it - we were arguing about whether or not the idea itself was any good,"  "I actually ACKed the patch myself," -petertodd
1124 2014-08-27 18:12:07 <gmaxwell> I am very much guilty of failing to review things I do not like.
1125 2014-08-27 18:12:08 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: why are you ACKing code you haven't examined?
1126 2014-08-27 18:12:11 <jgarzik> what gmaxwell said, too
1127 2014-08-27 18:12:27 <wumpus> jgarzik: anyhow I made a bit of a judgement error there, but also because a lot of discussion about it wasn't happening in the issue itself, it looked like people had turned mildly positive about it
1128 2014-08-27 18:13:10 <gmaxwell> wumpus: you were also reasoning on incomplete information. I'd started a private dialog with Mike about concerns here which you weren't aware of (and which I've been proceding with very slowly due to time constraints).
1129 2014-08-27 18:13:11 <btcdrak> Luke-Jr well me too, I need a slap on the wrists for ACKing the PR
1130 2014-08-27 18:13:42 <gmaxwell> That discussion probably shouldn't have been in private, but there was past hyperbole I was concerned about fanning.
1131 2014-08-27 18:13:48 <Luke-Jr> it's forgivable for someone to ACK code with bugs, if they've at least read and tested it… but to not have even read the code… :/
1132 2014-08-27 18:14:20 <gmaxwell> Well you should indicate what level of review you've given things. (you see people doing this with 'untested ack')
1133 2014-08-27 18:14:20 <jgarzik> Yeah, don't beat yourself up over it wumpus
1134 2014-08-27 18:14:44 <jgarzik> indeed.  'idea ACK' or 'concept ACK'
1135 2014-08-27 18:14:46 <btcdrak> Luke-Jr Seems there are a lot of "untested ACK" comments.
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1137 2014-08-27 18:15:00 <btcdrak> +1 jgarzik
1138 2014-08-27 18:15:40 <jgarzik> For minor crapola (read: most patches are insignificant and not consensus critical), I outsource testing to the Internet and pulltester.
1139 2014-08-27 18:15:44 <wumpus> gmaxwell: indeed, if I was aware that lots of discussion about it was still going on I wouldn't have merged it
1140 2014-08-27 18:16:18 <btcdrak> anyway, this doesnt have to be a big deal. Just revert the patch and push the PR back to review stage.
1141 2014-08-27 18:16:31 <wumpus> btcdrak: it has already been reverted
1142 2014-08-27 18:17:38 <btcdrak> wumpus good news. well never mind, honestly it's OK. These things will happen occasionally. I dont think it needs to be such a disaster to revert a patch every now and again.
1143 2014-08-27 18:17:58 <btcdrak> wumpus just might have been better to revert it faster than let the debate drag on.
1144 2014-08-27 18:17:59 <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: "untested ACK" is different from "ACK" since it clearly states it
1145 2014-08-27 18:18:21 <Luke-Jr> "ACK" by itself IMO should always mean testing and code review
1146 2014-08-27 18:18:40 <wumpus> untested ACK is only code review no testing
1147 2014-08-27 18:19:20 <jgarzik> btcdrak, wumpus:  Respectfully disagree.  Protip:  Don't be super quick to revert things.  Mention "I think this should be reverted" or make similar noises, but don't do the actual revert for ~24 hours.
1148 2014-08-27 18:19:28 <jgarzik> Let the heat settle and people figure out what's what.
1149 2014-08-27 18:19:29 <wumpus> btcdrak: why would that matter? it's not like there would be a ninja release in between
1150 2014-08-27 18:19:47 <wumpus> you shouldn't be using master and expecting it to be stable and bug free
1151 2014-08-27 18:20:24 <Luke-Jr> indeed, reverting makes it ugly when the bug is fixed. now it's "reintroduce … with fixes" and you have to manually compare to the older commit to see the fixes
1152 2014-08-27 18:20:45 <wumpus> I'm fairly sure this won't be reintroduced though, just too much shitstorm
1153 2014-08-27 18:20:53 <btcdrak> wumpus just thinking it would have meant less of a ruccus. It's like you are saying "actually, this wasnt ready, I want to push this back to review stage". As master merger, I think that is your right.
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1155 2014-08-27 18:20:58 <jgarzik> Honestly I don't criticize wumpus at all for merging, due to "imperfect info" factors gmaxwell mentioned.  My only wumpus criticism, and underscore _mild_ criticism, is a too-quick revert.  Sometimes too-quick revert leads to a re-apply hours later, when you have second thoughts on your second thoughts.
1156 2014-08-27 18:20:59 <jgarzik> :)
1157 2014-08-27 18:21:13 <wumpus> to everyone that disagrees, feel free to make a bitcoind with experimental features, we can't do that
1158 2014-08-27 18:21:23 <jgarzik> I know that's an odd criticism, given my position on getutxos.
1159 2014-08-27 18:21:35 <gmaxwell> wumpus: In any case, I realize that I'm making a mistake in not spending review time on things I dislike. I've done that because I'm naturally prone nitpick things I don't like and I don't want to fall into the trap of nagging people to death on something I dislike.
1160 2014-08-27 18:22:44 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well I think not wanting something inthe first place is a fair criticism too
1161 2014-08-27 18:23:22 <wumpus> I'm also guilty of that when I think something would bloat bitcoind too much, ie like extra indexes
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1163 2014-08-27 18:23:46 <btcdrak> jgarzik, I also dont think there is any blame, I really like wumpus mediation, he seems fair and clear and clearly listens to consensus.
1164 2014-08-27 18:24:20 <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: there is *no* consensus here right now. :p
1165 2014-08-27 18:24:22 <jgarzik> wumpus, we all bring that to the table
1166 2014-08-27 18:24:28 <jgarzik> wumpus, and we all have different views on that :) :)
1167 2014-08-27 18:24:31 <gmaxwell> I did comment some, but I must confess to soft handing (well as much as I soft hand anything) it because I'm concerned about feeding into some of the recent attacks.
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1169 2014-08-27 18:24:45 <gmaxwell> and then I moved it privately.
1170 2014-08-27 18:25:08 <btcdrak> it's a shame this episode might hurt other reasonable features (imo) like extra optional indexes (off by default)
1171 2014-08-27 18:25:25 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I just wasn't convinced by 'this can be used insecurely' arguments... on the other hand 'this turns the utxo set into an easily accissible database' is a strong reason not to want it
1172 2014-08-27 18:25:32 <btcdrak> but I also get what wumpus said about adding some signals to allow for a more pluggable system.
1173 2014-08-27 18:26:26 <gmaxwell> wumpus: funny, thats also a little bit of a lack of review on my part problem too. When I commented I had misunderstood thought it had been changed to only send a bit-vector, not the data.
1174 2014-08-27 18:26:45 <gmaxwell> which would have basically reduced it to the can-be-used-insecurely.
1175 2014-08-27 18:26:53 <gmaxwell> (+ implementation bugs)
1176 2014-08-27 18:27:11 <wumpus> gmaxwell: right
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1179 2014-08-27 18:27:35 <wumpus> there was also very little response to the mailing list post, are people really not following the mailing list because it's too noisy?
1180 2014-08-27 18:27:37 <wumpus> that's disconcerting
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1182 2014-08-27 18:28:16 <wumpus> it's not that high traffic, but if we need an even lower traffic mailing list for only discussing protocol changes that could be arranged
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1184 2014-08-27 18:28:56 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: personally, I only read the ML when something stands out (because it's noisy)
1185 2014-08-27 18:29:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: too much insanity lately :/
1186 2014-08-27 18:29:25 <Luke-Jr> s/insanity/not well-informed ideas/
1187 2014-08-27 18:30:14 <wumpus> well, we can restrict the focus but I'm not sure we can do anything about not well-informed ideas
1188 2014-08-27 18:30:26 <wumpus> btcdrak: luckily those are not protocol changes...
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1191 2014-08-27 18:31:04 <wumpus> btcdrak: you can just run your own bitcoind with whatever extra indexes you want, without needing anyone else to run it
1192 2014-08-27 18:31:11 <gmaxwell> In any case, I've now resigned my dayjob effective sept 5th and will be able to spend some more time on bitcoin core.
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1194 2014-08-27 18:32:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: +1
1195 2014-08-27 18:32:46 <wumpus> that's great
1196 2014-08-27 18:33:04 <sipa> \o/
1197 2014-08-27 18:33:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I should post to /r/buttcoin pointing out how all the bitcoin core devs are losing their jobs...
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1199 2014-08-27 18:34:01 <christophe> wumpus: The mailing list reaches mostly the same people who already had been reading the github activity.
1200 2014-08-27 18:34:13 <wumpus> christophe: so, how can that be changed?
1201 2014-08-27 18:34:18 <gmaxwell> WRT the mailing list, I too am put off by the amount of inadvisable stuff, and the tension that goes along with not wanting to be dismissive of people's ideas.
1202 2014-08-27 18:34:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, woah, cool!
1203 2014-08-27 18:34:55 <gmaxwell> wumpus: Well, I reached out to BTCD-folks and asked them to comment, and that was a success in that they did (and eventually found an interesting issue)
1204 2014-08-27 18:35:04 <cfields> gmaxwell: congrats :)
1205 2014-08-27 18:35:06 <gmaxwell> I should have also reached out to genjix I guess.
1206 2014-08-27 18:35:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: any specific new projects?
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1209 2014-08-27 18:35:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: reaching out to me is close enough to reaching out to genjix; don't feel bad about that one
1210 2014-08-27 18:35:48 cbeams has joined
1211 2014-08-27 18:36:04 <christophe> wumpus: I don't think it's necessarily a problem. The people who are raising issues now aren't doing so because they weren't aware of the proposal, rather new issues cropped up right around the time you merged.
1212 2014-08-27 18:36:31 <wumpus> still, it would be nice if people at least followed one single mailing list so people are on the same line and don't realize things only after the fact
1213 2014-08-27 18:36:47 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well in terms of 'reaching out to other implementers who are likely to comment'.  We should probably have a list of people who aren't regular commenters but whom we expect to comment on p2p or blockchain impacting changes.
1214 2014-08-27 18:37:30 <gmaxwell> Some of these issues arise for BIPs too... We have a number of bips that I feel various degrees of inadvisable.. no reall mechenism to disclose that.
1215 2014-08-27 18:37:41 <wumpus> anyhow, I think we can safely say that there won't be any P2P protocol changes soon
1216 2014-08-27 18:37:53 <jgarzik> wumpus, I disagree
1217 2014-08-27 18:38:02 <MiningBuddy> hi
1218 2014-08-27 18:38:13 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1219 2014-08-27 18:38:31 <wumpus> after seeing how hearn got chased out of town with pitchforks and torches
1220 2014-08-27 18:39:19 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1221 2014-08-27 18:39:19 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1222 2014-08-27 18:39:34 <kanzure> is bitcoin-development not that single mailing list?
1223 2014-08-27 18:39:36 bbrittain has joined
1224 2014-08-27 18:39:37 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well see, this is what I was trying to address in private. E.g. see if this could be backed off to only return a spentness bool and no other info.
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1227 2014-08-27 18:40:18 akstunt600 has joined
1228 2014-08-27 18:40:21 <wumpus> kanzure: that was the idea behind it, yes, but from what I read it isn't working
1229 2014-08-27 18:40:31 Emcy has joined
1230 2014-08-27 18:40:52 <kanzure> what are the failure modes it is experiencing?
1231 2014-08-27 18:40:56 <wumpus> kanzure: according to genjix it's too noisy
1232 2014-08-27 18:41:03 <kanzure> like if people aren't reading their email.. nothing i can do about that.
1233 2014-08-27 18:41:09 <jgarzik> wumpus, there was general agreement and little contention on "pong", "reject", block v2, etc.
1234 2014-08-27 18:41:26 <jgarzik> wumpus, I don't subscribe to the apocalyptic "changes are impossible" view... it's really case-by-case
1235 2014-08-27 18:41:33 <kanzure> "too noisy".. yeah they are going to have to just get over that.
1236 2014-08-27 18:41:39 <gmaxwell> I didn't like reject much (added strings to the protocol) but a little dislike didn't stop it.
1237 2014-08-27 18:41:58 <kanzure> if they aren't willing to read the firehose then they will have to trust that one of their friends will
1238 2014-08-27 18:42:00 belcher has joined
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1240 2014-08-27 18:42:00 belcher has joined
1241 2014-08-27 18:42:12 <kanzure> at the moment there's only a handful of people i suspect are correctly keeping up with the firehose
1242 2014-08-27 18:42:41 <wumpus> kanzure: well the noise could be toned down by creating specific mailingl ists for specific things, but the risk of creating too many mailing lists is that it only becomes harder to follow all of it
1243 2014-08-27 18:42:48 <kanzure> yes
1244 2014-08-27 18:42:49 wbtcw has joined
1245 2014-08-27 18:43:11 <kanzure> i have seen other mailing lists try the split approach and it just totally fails- people create a new mailing list when they should have just sent an email instead
1246 2014-08-27 18:43:19 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1247 2014-08-27 18:44:36 <petertodd> wumpus: I suspect once people get in their heads that you don't need to ask permission to advertise a service bit we'll see more P2P protocol changes; e.g. my replace-by-fee
1248 2014-08-27 18:44:48 WeCluster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1249 2014-08-27 18:45:16 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: that's not a protocol change at all..
1250 2014-08-27 18:45:30 mpmcsweeney is now known as mpm_
1251 2014-08-27 18:45:33 <kanzure> is there a p2p network request to list supported services ?
1252 2014-08-27 18:45:33 <sipa> exactly
1253 2014-08-27 18:45:53 <sipa> kanzure: no need, it's advertized in address messages and on first connect
1254 2014-08-27 18:45:59 <kanzure> okay
1255 2014-08-27 18:46:00 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: pragmatically, yes it is - no-one will write something that won't get relayed
1256 2014-08-27 18:47:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, a list of people to notify isn't a bad idea - is there anyone other than conformal and myself/genjix who would be on that though?
1257 2014-08-27 18:48:05 wbtcw has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1258 2014-08-27 18:48:18 <sipa> petertodd: that would already be useful i guess
1259 2014-08-27 18:48:21 WeCluster has joined
1260 2014-08-27 18:48:34 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: that's a matter of relay policy of individual nodes, which can be anything
1261 2014-08-27 18:48:36 <sipa> but yes, i'm worried about the too-many-lists syndrome too
1262 2014-08-27 18:49:46 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: without a service bit, it's hard to find nodes that have a relay policy compatible with what you intend to relay...
1263 2014-08-27 18:49:58 mappum has joined
1264 2014-08-27 18:50:07 <sipa> of course... nodes can lie about their relay policy if such a bit would exist
1265 2014-08-27 18:50:20 <petertodd> sipa: indeed, something I suspect we'll eventually run into problems with
1266 2014-08-27 18:50:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: yep, but we can't give every single node relay policy its own bit
1267 2014-08-27 18:50:26 <sipa> that's a bit different than other service bits, where it is testable
1268 2014-08-27 18:50:32 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1269 2014-08-27 18:50:42 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: sure, but we can give popular ones
1270 2014-08-27 18:50:52 <petertodd> sipa: getutxo's isn't testable...
1271 2014-08-27 18:50:56 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: popularity changes over time
1272 2014-08-27 18:51:07 <Luke-Jr> and if it's popular, we don't need a service bit for it
1273 2014-08-27 18:51:12 <petertodd> sipa: and relay policy is testable the moment you have more than one peer
1274 2014-08-27 18:51:13 <sipa> petertodd: the existance of the service is testable; the correctness isn't
1275 2014-08-27 18:51:14 agricocb1 has joined
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1277 2014-08-27 18:51:20 <sipa> but yes, fuzzy distinction
1278 2014-08-27 18:51:41 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: note how I got a "temporary use" set of service bits allocated, which I use for replace-by-fee
1279 2014-08-27 18:52:18 teward has quit (Quit: ERROR: Segmentation Fault in ZNC: admin.so: 56)
1280 2014-08-27 18:52:20 <gmaxwell> some of this stuff we should be asking for tests like fuzz testing and exceptional condition testing.
1281 2014-08-27 18:52:33 <gmaxwell> It's hard to do because the existing software doesn't meet that bar, so it sounds like an artifical barrier.
1282 2014-08-27 18:52:40 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: anyway, proofs in the pudding: people actually download and use my replace-by-fee tools succesfully, without any real effort on my part to keep nodes up.
1283 2014-08-27 18:53:16 teward has joined
1284 2014-08-27 18:54:09 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: wondering how you had anything left to contribute to dayjob ... but nvm, they probably got 10x what they paid for
1285 2014-08-27 18:56:06 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: some people forget that there are a whole 24 hours in a day. :)
1286 2014-08-27 18:57:13 <kanzure> dayjob probably required less effort than "keeping up with everything in the bitcoin ecosystem"
1287 2014-08-27 18:58:46 Aido has joined
1288 2014-08-27 18:59:42 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I wasn't questioning whether it would work or not.
1289 2014-08-27 19:00:19 <sipa> gmaxwell realized years ago that during sleep, time actually passes - time not spent usefully
1290 2014-08-27 19:00:46 <petertodd> I think what we all want to know is who is gmaxwell's meth dealer?
1291 2014-08-27 19:00:50 <sipa> he probably has a brain electromagnetic helmet thing that directly posts to reddit from his dreams
1292 2014-08-27 19:01:06 <sipa> petertodd: walter white; duh
1293 2014-08-27 19:01:22 pen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1294 2014-08-27 19:03:00 <wumpus> petertodd: sometimes I indeed wonder why not, there is indeed no need to ask for anyone's permission to do anything new on the P2P network, for some reason it's all played through 'us'
1295 2014-08-27 19:03:26 <sipa> right; for consensus changes... well, consensus is necessary
1296 2014-08-27 19:03:26 <wumpus> petertodd: but two alternative node implementations later and they're not experimenting with anything new there either
1297 2014-08-27 19:03:39 <sipa> but for the p2p protocol... you talk to your peers what you damn well please
1298 2014-08-27 19:04:03 <gmaxwell> We need more p2p protocols... we've got a start now! bluematt's thing can be used instead of the p2p protocol.
1299 2014-08-27 19:04:28 <wumpus> petertodd: if you want to change anything here you shouldn't write a BIP, you shouldn't make a pull request, you should just fork the client and do whatever your wnat :P
1300 2014-08-27 19:04:33 <petertodd> wumpus: well, actually libbitcoin's implementation has prefix filtering, although it's not advertised on the p2p protocol IIRC
1301 2014-08-27 19:05:08 <petertodd> wumpus: and the majority of alts seem to have adopted NODE_BLOOM
1302 2014-08-27 19:05:18 <wumpus> petertodd: anarchism00!!00!!
1303 2014-08-27 19:05:42 <sipa> we need a NODE_JS
1304 2014-08-27 19:06:02 <btcdrak> wumpus: shock, you mean create an aallltttcoin? blasphemy!
1305 2014-08-27 19:06:16 <gmaxwell> btcdrak: no thats not at all what he's saying.
1306 2014-08-27 19:06:19 <wumpus> btcdrak: no, not an altcoin, just your own version of bitcoind
1307 2014-08-27 19:06:33 * btcdrak was trying to make a joke
1308 2014-08-27 19:06:39 <petertodd> sipa: actually, I quite seriously want to add CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY to viacoin or something just to get some soft-fork practice in - go through the motions and make sure there's not something we've missed
1309 2014-08-27 19:06:44 <sipa> wumpus: it's just an altcoin 1:1 pegged to bitcoin :p
1310 2014-08-27 19:07:17 <wumpus> sipa: hah, how would that work, a P2P message with a mini-js execution environment that prefers asynchronous messaging? :p
1311 2014-08-27 19:07:21 <petertodd> sipa: I'll guarantee you every alt-Bitcoin Core implementation is actually an altcoin 1:! pegged... :P
1312 2014-08-27 19:07:52 <sipa> Luke's old tonal patch was an interesting example of an altcoin not 1:1 pegged :p
1313 2014-08-27 19:08:05 <petertodd> lol
1314 2014-08-27 19:08:55 <petertodd> I guess tonal is one:an pegged...
1315 2014-08-27 19:08:56 <wumpus> anyhow, we should get away from the idea that everything needs to be merged into bitcoind to be 'acceptable', we're not here to act as arbiters or gatekeepers
1316 2014-08-27 19:09:14 <cfields> anyone know what local factor might cause bitcoind/comparisontool to wander off like this: https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/33710379#L1414 ?
1317 2014-08-27 19:09:49 <cfields> it happens now and then on the pull-tests and causes false negatives
1318 2014-08-27 19:10:15 <wumpus> 03:49:09 15 PeerGroup.handlePeerDeath: [127.0.0.1]:19857: Peer died
1319 2014-08-27 19:10:16 <petertodd> wumpus: $10 and I'll release Genuine Bitcoin on genuinebitcoin.org :P
1320 2014-08-27 19:10:34 <sipa> i'll release Bitcoin Genuine Advantage
1321 2014-08-27 19:11:03 <petertodd> sipa: I'll sue you for trademark infringement
1322 2014-08-27 19:11:05 <jgarzik> wumpus, who needs a mini-JS environment when you have  https://github.com/jgarzik/moxiebox ? :)
1323 2014-08-27 19:11:08 <cfields> wumpus: when i forcefully kill bitcoind to try to reproduce it looks very different
1324 2014-08-27 19:11:14 <jgarzik> much better for bitcoin :)
1325 2014-08-27 19:11:52 cbeams has joined
1326 2014-08-27 19:11:53 <jgarzik> OP_MOXIEBIN ;p
1327 2014-08-27 19:12:10 <wumpus> jgarzik: well it was a joke on the NODE_JS name, but sure, IF you want to implement it in practice a saner VM would make much more sense
1328 2014-08-27 19:12:41 <dgenr8> jgarzik: the foundation has mining capacity? Does it run recent versions of stock bitcoind?
1329 2014-08-27 19:12:43 <jgarzik> wumpus, Yep, a VM purpose-built for deterministic sandbox execution
1330 2014-08-27 19:12:54 <jgarzik> dgenr8, it's probably dead by now:  Avalon #2
1331 2014-08-27 19:13:55 wivfbir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1332 2014-08-27 19:14:09 <wumpus> cfields: but it seems random? maybe something running out of memory or so?
1333 2014-08-27 19:14:29 <wumpus> cfields: I don't remember it happening on the pulltester machine
1334 2014-08-27 19:14:46 <cfields> wumpus: yea, the other builder (x86_64 minimal) completed fine on the same PR
1335 2014-08-27 19:15:19 <jgarzik> kanzure, NODE_EXT_SERVICES  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4657
1336 2014-08-27 19:15:25 <jgarzik> not uncontroversial itself
1337 2014-08-27 19:15:35 <kanzure> thank you
1338 2014-08-27 19:15:47 <jgarzik> the github thread indicates a preferences towards NODE_EXT_{class}
1339 2014-08-27 19:15:51 <jgarzik> rather than one bit
1340 2014-08-27 19:16:08 wivfbir has joined
1341 2014-08-27 19:17:27 linuxnewb2 has joined
1342 2014-08-27 19:17:48 <wumpus> maybe we could change nServices into a bloom filter!
1343 2014-08-27 19:18:27 <gmaxwell> die
1344 2014-08-27 19:18:34 <wumpus> hehe
1345 2014-08-27 19:18:43 pen has joined
1346 2014-08-27 19:19:46 <cfields> wumpus: will look into mem, but that seems a bit unlikely to me
1347 2014-08-27 19:20:02 <gmaxwell> cfields: the block tester does a huge reorg.
1348 2014-08-27 19:21:33 <cfields> gmaxwell: understood, but these are VM's cranked up with specific constraints. Hard to account for the same test passing sometimes and not others
1349 2014-08-27 19:21:58 <wumpus> jgarzik: the hard thing will be determining what classes to define
1350 2014-08-27 19:22:05 <cfields> unless it's right at the threshold, which could very well be the case i suppose
1351 2014-08-27 19:22:24 <gmaxwell> yea, if its right on the threshold the java gc running or not at a given time might flip it over.
1352 2014-08-27 19:23:04 IrishGringo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1353 2014-08-27 19:24:58 wivfbir has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1354 2014-08-27 19:25:05 <jgarzik> wumpus, I think needs-based, but that is very clearly with <vendor hat: on> self-interest.  NODE_EXT_CHAIN_QUERY for anything explorer|insight|blockchain.info-like API
1355 2014-08-27 19:25:33 <jgarzik> preferred added rule "if and only if NODE_NETWORK is also present" but that may be a vendor-specific rule
1356 2014-08-27 19:25:53 <jgarzik> thus limiting it to bitcoind and not making it a general bootstrapping feature for anybody doing anything P2P
1357 2014-08-27 19:25:56 <petertodd> wumpus: you know, a bloom filter of service bits isn't *that* crazy from a political standpoint of permissionless development :/
1358 2014-08-27 19:26:07 <jgarzik> petertodd, SIGH
1359 2014-08-27 19:26:19 <jgarzik> I must confess I was thinking the same.  /me hides from gmaxwell
1360 2014-08-27 19:26:19 <sipa> haha
1361 2014-08-27 19:26:55 <jgarzik> I was about to write:  wumpus:  haha.  not sure if you're joking.  that is outside the box and... creative.
1362 2014-08-27 19:26:57 <Luke-Jr> only reason I suggested a merkle root earlier rather than a bloom filter, was because a bloom filter seemed more likely to become polluted beyond usability
1363 2014-08-27 19:27:15 <petertodd> jgarzik: I had the same idea myself awhile back
1364 2014-08-27 19:27:54 <sipa> we should turn nServices into a URL to a DTD document, clearly
1365 2014-08-27 19:28:29 <btcdrak> :-P
1366 2014-08-27 19:28:31 <gavinandresen> as long as we use XML I’ll be happy.
1367 2014-08-27 19:28:45 <wumpus> petertodd: 64 bits is too small for a bloom filter... but apart from that, I suppose it could work
1368 2014-08-27 19:28:53 <jgarzik> hash(url) for which the url must be obtained via worldwide internet brute force search
1369 2014-08-27 19:29:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: JSONx please: http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wsdatap/v6r0m0/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.dp.xs.doc%2Fjson_jsonx.html
1370 2014-08-27 19:29:09 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: just put the hash in the URL itself so you can Google it
1371 2014-08-27 19:29:11 <petertodd> gavinandresen: better yet, VRML
1372 2014-08-27 19:29:27 <petertodd> wumpus: yeah, I think you'd have to do it with a NODE_EXT thing
1373 2014-08-27 19:29:36 <gavinandresen> VRML was XML-ified and became X3D (after I was involved)....
1374 2014-08-27 19:31:09 <wumpus> sipa: I like using a DTD link describing XML-ized version of the protocol, we could definitely learn some enterprisey techniques to stifle innovation :)
1375 2014-08-27 19:31:30 <Luke-Jr> 64-bit isn't even big enough for an IP address
1376 2014-08-27 19:32:05 <sipa> i'm sure we can find some compact encoding for ipv6 that can represent the majority of _actually used_ IPv6 addresses in 64 bits
1377 2014-08-27 19:32:10 <gavinandresen> So RE: service bits:  I’ll just repeat myself and point out again that lots of different service bits makes testing a lot harder.  And it seems to me testing is already our bottleneck.
1378 2014-08-27 19:32:13 <wumpus> gavinandresen: is that related to collada3d?
1379 2014-08-27 19:32:14 <jgarzik> 64 bits is enough for anybody.
1380 2014-08-27 19:32:37 Emzy has joined
1381 2014-08-27 19:32:41 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: not if petertodd gets his way and every single node has a policy service bit
1382 2014-08-27 19:32:41 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1383 2014-08-27 19:32:41 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1384 2014-08-27 19:32:44 <wumpus> gavinandresen: or is that an even newer variation of the same theme?
1385 2014-08-27 19:33:04 <gavinandresen> wumpus: I dunno, I haven’t been paying attention to 3d graphics on the web for years
1386 2014-08-27 19:33:18 akstunt600 has joined
1387 2014-08-27 19:33:38 ak_ has joined
1388 2014-08-27 19:34:19 <wumpus> I don't know much about 3d on the web either, apart from that webgl is great for crashing browsers
1389 2014-08-27 19:34:31 weilu has joined
1390 2014-08-27 19:34:35 <sipa> webcl works even better, i heard
1391 2014-08-27 19:34:43 <Luke-Jr> wait, is WebCL actually deployed?
1392 2014-08-27 19:34:55 GM0127 has joined
1393 2014-08-27 19:34:55 <Luke-Jr> so browsers can get unlimited access to video RAM?
1394 2014-08-27 19:34:58 <gmaxwell> there are plugins, they have no MMU...
1395 2014-08-27 19:35:14 <sipa> ah right, so it was WebGL; nvm
1396 2014-08-27 19:36:07 <gmaxwell> so with the webcl stuff you can get arbitary access to ram.  WebGL compute sharders are quite a bit of the functionality. .. wait why is this in this channel?
1397 2014-08-27 19:36:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: at least Intel's GPU has a MMU of sorts - but it's disabled at least in the Linux drivers :x
1398 2014-08-27 19:36:57 <wumpus> there seems to be a race to expose every bit of attack surface in both hardware and software to the web
1399 2014-08-27 19:37:14 <sipa> yeah, we've drifted a bit too far off topic; sorry
1400 2014-08-27 19:38:01 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: nvidia's GPU has a MMU too, but several risky things are mapped
1401 2014-08-27 19:39:07 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1402 2014-08-27 19:40:02 <Luke-Jr> clearly everyone here is tired of the topic, and should just get rid of their bitcoins. I'll take the sacrifice of being the recipient..
1403 2014-08-27 19:41:16 wivfbir has joined
1404 2014-08-27 19:41:41 <gmaxwell> wumpus: this is why I tell people to assume anything that has ever run a webbrowser of any make or model is compromised.
1405 2014-08-27 19:42:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: heh, of course, if every bit of attack service in hardware and software is exhausted, you could always try the social engineering angle
1406 2014-08-27 19:42:25 <Luke-Jr> :P
1407 2014-08-27 19:42:42 <sipa> seems that is even the most exploited vulnerability in the bitcoin ecosystem...
1408 2014-08-27 19:42:54 <sipa> "yes, i'll pay you 7% interest per week *wink* *wink*"
1409 2014-08-27 19:44:04 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1410 2014-08-27 19:45:03 RazielZ has joined
1411 2014-08-27 19:45:50 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sad but true
1412 2014-08-27 19:46:14 <jgarzik> can't wait until web pages are slinging around random bits of x86 code...
1413 2014-08-27 19:46:33 <jgarzik> the NaCL web
1414 2014-08-27 19:46:39 weilu has joined
1415 2014-08-27 19:47:08 bedeho has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1416 2014-08-27 19:47:38 <sipa> a combination of ACID with base libraries?
1417 2014-08-27 19:47:56 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1418 2014-08-27 19:48:29 <wumpus> makes you yearn for a simple, secure document oriented web that doesn't try to be a real-time applications platform
1419 2014-08-27 19:49:00 <phantomcircuit> what in the fuck
1420 2014-08-27 19:49:22 <gmaxwell> It's all good until the pages gain sentience and demand equal rights.
1421 2014-08-27 19:50:05 <sipa> "All PHP pages are ==, but some are more === than others"
1422 2014-08-27 19:50:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what do they need rights for? it's all over with bitcoin
1423 2014-08-27 19:50:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: AI can already do work online and get paid in bitcoins, then pay their hosting costs …
1424 2014-08-27 19:50:51 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1425 2014-08-27 19:50:56 <Luke-Jr> self-sufficient AI bots are here :P
1426 2014-08-27 19:51:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hasn't happened yet. :P
1427 2014-08-27 19:51:39 jordandotdev has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
1428 2014-08-27 19:52:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what do you think Supa is?
1429 2014-08-27 19:52:31 <sipa> a typo of my nick
1430 2014-08-27 19:53:04 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well wake me up when that happens, I may get interested in web development again :p
1431 2014-08-27 19:53:23 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1432 2014-08-27 19:55:19 <jgarzik> sipa, rofl
1433 2014-08-27 19:55:44 aphorise has joined
1434 2014-08-27 19:55:53 Sillopotatis has joined
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1436 2014-08-27 19:57:33 <sipa> wumpus: re #4768... i never realized that was even possible
1437 2014-08-27 19:57:38 <sipa> it's so trivial :)
1438 2014-08-27 19:59:17 <wumpus> sipa: indeed, the only reason it's possible is because pcoinsTip won't have any writes yet at the time of the checking
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1442 2014-08-27 20:02:09 <sipa> Luke-Jr: an AI, before reaching singularity could end up paying humans to develop itself :p
1443 2014-08-27 20:02:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yep
1444 2014-08-27 20:02:30 Qatz has joined
1445 2014-08-27 20:02:44 <Luke-Jr> sipa: but why would that occur to it, if it has an unending source of scam victims in #bitcoin-otc to profit from, without development?
1446 2014-08-27 20:03:09 <sipa> depends what its goal is; money? power? intelligence?
1447 2014-08-27 20:03:20 <Luke-Jr> ☺
1448 2014-08-27 20:03:42 <blast_> Step 1. Bitcoin Step 2. People Step 3. ???? Step 4 PROFIT!
1449 2014-08-27 20:03:43 <wumpus> survival
1450 2014-08-27 20:04:38 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: for that, it need only know how to scam in -otc
1451 2014-08-27 20:05:06 risho has quit (K-Lined)
1452 2014-08-27 20:07:25 wizkid057 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1454 2014-08-27 20:09:21 * sipa would like review attention for: #4701 #4768 #4764 #4737 #4377 
1455 2014-08-27 20:10:13 nsh_ has joined
1456 2014-08-27 20:10:28 <jgarzik> I guess we don't yet care about failed travis builds?
1457 2014-08-27 20:10:41 <sipa> we have pulltester for now
1458 2014-08-27 20:10:55 <sipa> travis seems to have some children's diseases still
1459 2014-08-27 20:11:11 <jgarzik> it bugs me that our pulls all say "merge with caution!"
1460 2014-08-27 20:11:17 <wumpus> oh we care about failed travis builds, they just don't indicate problems with the pull usually but with travis :)
1461 2014-08-27 20:11:38 <Luke-Jr> I think our pulls should always say "merge with caution!"
1462 2014-08-27 20:11:39 <sipa> jgarzik: that's why you don't use the github merge button right :)
1463 2014-08-27 20:12:12 <wumpus> "don't push this button, not even with caution!"
1464 2014-08-27 20:12:40 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's such a nice big green button
1465 2014-08-27 20:12:49 <phantomcircuit> exactly the opposite of what it should be
1466 2014-08-27 20:12:55 <wumpus> pavlov
1467 2014-08-27 20:12:56 Grouver has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!)
1468 2014-08-27 20:14:57 <wumpus> anyhow, the travis problems are temporary, cfields is working on fixing them
1469 2014-08-27 20:16:41 <jgarzik> gah, I should start reviewing from "files changed" and not commit-by-commit.
1470 2014-08-27 20:16:59 <sipa> yes, i usually start looking at the whole
1471 2014-08-27 20:17:15 <sipa> if it has several unrelated movements, it's usually easier to do commit by commit
1472 2014-08-27 20:17:17 <gmaxwell> usually easier to fetch a patch and review that, I've found I miss less things that way.
1473 2014-08-27 20:17:19 <cfields> jgarzik: is there a specific failed build you're talking about?
1474 2014-08-27 20:17:43 <jgarzik> I miss less things in commit-by-commit
1475 2014-08-27 20:17:49 <cfields> I'm trying to separate out the issues, so i'd like to know about any false negatives
1476 2014-08-27 20:17:52 <jgarzik> but often I find issues that were solved in a later commit
1477 2014-08-27 20:17:58 <sipa> yup
1478 2014-08-27 20:18:07 <sipa> it's nice to first have a big picture view
1479 2014-08-27 20:18:14 <sipa> and if needed, dig into the actual changes
1480 2014-08-27 20:18:48 <wumpus> jgarzik: that's good, it means you're thinking along the same lines as the author
1481 2014-08-27 20:18:50 RAM518 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1482 2014-08-27 20:19:33 <sipa> i usually do create commits specifically for ease of reviewing
1483 2014-08-27 20:19:42 <cfields> wumpus: thoughts on the qt change? I'm not really sure where to go next with that
1484 2014-08-27 20:20:02 <sipa> as in, they're not representative of actual development history
1485 2014-08-27 20:20:05 <wumpus> cfields: which qt change?
1486 2014-08-27 20:20:14 <sipa> wumpus: static vs dynamic lib i suppose
1487 2014-08-27 20:20:25 <cfields> wumpus: static qt5 and its downsides
1488 2014-08-27 20:20:26 <cfields> right
1489 2014-08-27 20:20:52 <wumpus> I still don't like static qt on linux
1490 2014-08-27 20:21:29 <wumpus> it works but makes the ui entirely misbehaving in its context
1491 2014-08-27 20:21:45 <cfields> wumpus: for the next few releases, i'm not sure it'll be possible to use qt4 or qt5 shared libs, since distros are likely to have one or the other
1492 2014-08-27 20:21:46 <wumpus> which kind of defeats using qt in the first place :/
1493 2014-08-27 20:22:43 Aido_ has joined
1494 2014-08-27 20:22:57 <sipa> wumpus: i'm sure you'd be happy to replace the GUI with code with libx11 / winapi calls based versions? :p
1495 2014-08-27 20:23:17 <wumpus> cfields: possibly, although I don't think that's a big concern; many real-world applications still are qt4 only, so distros will have qt4 libraries for the forseeable future
1496 2014-08-27 20:23:27 <jgarzik> we have a GUI?
1497 2014-08-27 20:23:28 * jgarzik runs
1498 2014-08-27 20:23:36 <cfields> to be clear, i don't really care either way. neither of the choices are good ones, sadly
1499 2014-08-27 20:23:49 pen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1500 2014-08-27 20:24:01 <sipa> jgarzik: we should ship a Qt based bitcoin-cli tool!
1501 2014-08-27 20:24:10 <sipa> bitcoin-cliqt
1502 2014-08-27 20:24:18 <jgarzik> lol
1503 2014-08-27 20:24:31 davispuh has joined
1504 2014-08-27 20:24:39 <wumpus> it would be much easier without GUI
1505 2014-08-27 20:24:48 <sipa> and RPC
1506 2014-08-27 20:24:49 <cfields> sooo much :)
1507 2014-08-27 20:24:51 <sipa> and wallet
1508 2014-08-27 20:24:52 <sipa> and SSL
1509 2014-08-27 20:24:59 <wumpus> yes, let's axe all of those
1510 2014-08-27 20:25:11 <sipa> Bitcoin Vanilla
1511 2014-08-27 20:25:22 Aido has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1512 2014-08-27 20:25:31 <wumpus> yep
1513 2014-08-27 20:25:46 <jgarzik> After I broke the Qt build (pull tester caught it, of course), had to add qt to my default "it works" build.  Way back in year 2014, I did that...
1514 2014-08-27 20:25:48 <wumpus> so you want minimal?
1515 2014-08-27 20:26:08 <jgarzik> minimal is vi macros for composing and signing transactions
1516 2014-08-27 20:26:08 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1517 2014-08-27 20:26:26 * sipa gets his magnetized needle...
1518 2014-08-27 20:26:31 <gmaxwell> HTML5 UI. :P
1519 2014-08-27 20:26:43 <wumpus> whaaaaaa
1520 2014-08-27 20:26:44 <gmaxwell> "they said they wanted a web wallet"
1521 2014-08-27 20:26:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: LOL
1522 2014-08-27 20:26:54 <sipa> we totally need that
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1524 2014-08-27 20:27:15 <cfields> wumpus: i'm going to look into enabling theme plugins for qt5 static. I believe it's only artificially disabled.
1525 2014-08-27 20:27:25 <gmaxwell> I seem to recall dragging people away from things that looked like that. (dealing with CSRF is a PITA)
1526 2014-08-27 20:27:33 <wumpus> well, not for the wallet, for monitoring a node it would actually be useful to have a simple webpage
1527 2014-08-27 20:27:44 <cfields> last time i looked into it, it wouldn't work as-is. May be a simple patch to enable the functionality though.
1528 2014-08-27 20:27:55 <wumpus> it would just show some statistics so you could CSRF away
1529 2014-08-27 20:28:05 <wumpus> cfields: I think that's a dead end
1530 2014-08-27 20:28:21 <wumpus> cfields: you can't link in all the crazy things distros do to qt statically
1531 2014-08-27 20:28:39 <gmaxwell> Sure, 'read only stats' would be useful. P2pool does this to great effect. The graphs are super neat.
1532 2014-08-27 20:28:40 <wumpus> cfields: you can try, and spend months on it, and it will still not be complete
1533 2014-08-27 20:28:56 <wumpus> gmaxwell: not that I'm proposing including that into bitcoind, obviously :)
1534 2014-08-27 20:29:24 <cfields> wumpus: i believe the theme plugins are self-contained. but fair point.
1535 2014-08-27 20:29:38 <gmaxwell> wumpus: could also be a nice rpc>web proxy.
1536 2014-08-27 20:29:46 <gmaxwell> like that block explorer thing.
1537 2014-08-27 20:31:04 Aido_ is now known as Aido
1538 2014-08-27 20:31:59 <ebfull> when is pruning expected to land in bitcoin?
1539 2014-08-27 20:32:23 <sipa> 0.10
1540 2014-08-27 20:32:29 ItSANgo has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1541 2014-08-27 20:32:30 <wumpus> it's interesting though, that no one of the devs on IRC cares about the GUI
1542 2014-08-27 20:32:39 <sipa> wumpus: including the original author!
1543 2014-08-27 20:32:53 <gmaxwell> ebfull: that might not be the the most useful question to ask, What are you actually intending to accomplish?
1544 2014-08-27 20:33:16 RAM518 has joined
1545 2014-08-27 20:34:11 <ebfull> oh i'm just curious, friend asked about what devs were doing about blockchain size for full nodes
1546 2014-08-27 20:34:18 <wumpus> sipa: well I care, but it never did what I expected, I expected that using qt would get active development on the GUI going as it is the most popular cross-platform widget toolkit
1547 2014-08-27 20:34:38 <sipa> it certainly has higher development input than wx had
1548 2014-08-27 20:34:42 <sipa> but yes, not huge
1549 2014-08-27 20:35:00 <sipa> ebfull: the blockchain size won't change
1550 2014-08-27 20:35:03 <gmaxwell> ebfull: initial implementation of it will likely not be very useful for anything except bitcoin 'firewall' nodes.
1551 2014-08-27 20:35:12 <sipa> ebfull: the part of it being stored is a different story
1552 2014-08-27 20:35:22 <gmaxwell> As sipa nodes, pruning doesn't change the blockchain size, it just lets a node store less of it.
1553 2014-08-27 20:35:24 <sipa> in any case, you'll need to keep downloading and processing all of it
1554 2014-08-27 20:35:35 <ebfull> right
1555 2014-08-27 20:35:36 <sipa> just only keeping the last part
1556 2014-08-27 20:36:24 <gmaxwell> Or some subset in addition the the last part, for distributed storage.
1557 2014-08-27 20:36:31 <wumpus> it's not really that terribly useful, and I'm afraid many people will shoot themselves in the foot with it
1558 2014-08-27 20:36:38 <wumpus> 'oops I deleted my blockchain'
1559 2014-08-27 20:36:55 <sipa> hmmm
1560 2014-08-27 20:36:57 <wumpus> well it's better than deleting your wallet of course...
1561 2014-08-27 20:37:02 <sipa> -pruned should interact with -txindex
1562 2014-08-27 20:37:23 <sipa> i guess they should be mutually exclusive
1563 2014-08-27 20:37:28 <jgarzik> wumpus, Qt is being replaced by cordova-like gadgets for cross-platform UIs...   Qt was so much better than what came before, and yet, it hasn't made porting to mobile etc. any easier for most.
1564 2014-08-27 20:37:30 <cfields> wumpus: unfortunately, anything involving linux that touches the gui is non-standard
1565 2014-08-27 20:37:42 <wumpus> jgarzik: we don't care about porting to mobile though
1566 2014-08-27 20:37:42 <jgarzik> It's just tough to add even a single dialog box
1567 2014-08-27 20:37:44 <jgarzik> IMO
1568 2014-08-27 20:37:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: I mentioned that already.
1569 2014-08-27 20:38:04 <gmaxwell> " It should also be made incompatible with txindex."
1570 2014-08-27 20:38:20 <jgarzik> fire up qdeveloper, lay out the widgets, connect various signals, spend hours tweaking to get it right ;p   I used to do Motif & GNOME devel.
1571 2014-08-27 20:38:29 <cfields> i think it's because the toolkits are usually wrappers around native ui's. so qt on windows looks like windows. qt on osx looks like osx. But qt on linux can only look like qt.
1572 2014-08-27 20:38:33 <jgarzik> <shivers>
1573 2014-08-27 20:38:36 <wumpus> well, developing a gui isn't easy
1574 2014-08-27 20:38:48 <wumpus> creating a dialog box is trivial, so is smashing widgets in it
1575 2014-08-27 20:38:51 <Apocalyptic> nor interesting
1576 2014-08-27 20:39:08 <wumpus> having it make sense on the other hand... :-)
1577 2014-08-27 20:39:30 agorist001 is now known as agorist000
1578 2014-08-27 20:39:44 agorist000 has quit (Changing host)
1579 2014-08-27 20:39:44 agorist000 has joined
1580 2014-08-27 20:39:46 <jgarzik> wumpus, agreed...  For bitcoin, to remain on-topic, updating the bitcoin GUI is much higher difficulty than updating the core.  So guess which devel moves faster...  the path of least resistance.
1581 2014-08-27 20:39:55 <cfields> wumpus: so... it seems we've moved backwards :)
1582 2014-08-27 20:39:57 <ebfull> um another random thing i'd like to mention
1583 2014-08-27 20:40:04 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1584 2014-08-27 20:40:10 <ebfull> i had to patch my bitcoin a month ago to make watchonly wallets display transaction to and from
1585 2014-08-27 20:40:13 <jgarzik> wumpus, I will continue to cheer on anybody who works on the GUI and offer to buy them beer!
1586 2014-08-27 20:40:20 mappppum has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1587 2014-08-27 20:40:20 <wumpus> jgarzik: updating the GUI is higher difficulty than updating the core? don't you have that the wrong way around?
1588 2014-08-27 20:40:32 <ebfull> was this fixed in a recent version, or is it intended to be borked (last time i mentioned it lukejr got very upset)
1589 2014-08-27 20:40:47 ThomasV has joined
1590 2014-08-27 20:40:55 <sipa> ebfull: it should show both
1591 2014-08-27 20:40:58 <jgarzik> wumpus, Nope.  Much less LOC + drudgery for developer satisfaction payout.
1592 2014-08-27 20:41:07 <sipa> if it doesn't, that's a bug
1593 2014-08-27 20:41:24 <ebfull> i'll try and see if it does, because it was showing me negative balances and all sorts of weird stuff
1594 2014-08-27 20:41:24 <jgarzik> wumpus,  same problem with the kernel.  developers pay attention to sexy bits of code
1595 2014-08-27 20:41:29 aphorise has joined
1596 2014-08-27 20:41:31 <ebfull> (this was right after watchonly landed in master)
1597 2014-08-27 20:42:00 <sipa> ebfull: negative account balances are perfectly expected
1598 2014-08-27 20:42:06 <ebfull> oh alright
1599 2014-08-27 20:42:14 Pullphinger has quit ()
1600 2014-08-27 20:42:43 <sipa> but the transactions crediting a watch-only address, and transactions spending on of the coins that caused such crediting should both appear
1601 2014-08-27 20:43:24 <ebfull> what was weird about my watchonly wallet was that most (all?) of the "spends" from the wallet used its own address as the change address
1602 2014-08-27 20:43:29 PsychoticBoy is now known as Mr_Popo
1603 2014-08-27 20:43:30 <ebfull> which might be something the code didn't expect
1604 2014-08-27 20:43:33 <cfields> wumpus: my posed solution: build both. qt5-static and qt4-linked. Ship both. It should be made clear pretty quickly which one is used more.
1605 2014-08-27 20:43:45 <Luke-Jr> ebfull: showing both = borked
1606 2014-08-27 20:43:54 <sipa> Luke-Jr: please
1607 2014-08-27 20:43:57 <ebfull> fight, fight, fight
1608 2014-08-27 20:44:02 <earlz> what's the easiest way to generate a testnet address from a public key?
1609 2014-08-27 20:44:10 <Luke-Jr> sipa: see topic
1610 2014-08-27 20:44:12 Mr_Popo is now known as PsychoticBoy
1611 2014-08-27 20:44:26 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and a wallet is not an address
1612 2014-08-27 20:44:38 <sipa> we track wallet balances, and show transactions affecting a wallet
1613 2014-08-27 20:44:40 <cfields> It's ugly and I don't like it. It can't be easily explained. But it's the best I can come up with.
1614 2014-08-27 20:44:48 <Luke-Jr> sipa: true, but we have no watchonly wallet support :<
1615 2014-08-27 20:44:50 <dgenr8> developers love to work on the code that is executed the most
1616 2014-08-27 20:44:52 <sipa> if that wallet is defined by one or more watch-only addresses, that is still the only correct behavior
1617 2014-08-27 20:44:55 <wumpus> cfields: as long as we don't have shared libraries I don't really like that solution
1618 2014-08-27 20:45:02 <sipa> i won't argue about this anymore
1619 2014-08-27 20:45:13 <wumpus> cfields: we'd effectively be shipping another copy of all the code
1620 2014-08-27 20:45:40 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: aren't we already?
1621 2014-08-27 20:45:44 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind + GUI
1622 2014-08-27 20:45:55 <cfields> wumpus: well if we were going to use shared libs, we could just ship our shared qt libs. So i'm not catching your point there
1623 2014-08-27 20:46:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I know, but adding another GUI executable would add yet another one
1624 2014-08-27 20:46:27 wizkid057 has joined
1625 2014-08-27 20:47:00 <wumpus> cfields: why would anyone use the statically linked qt5 in favor of the dynamically linked qt4 one? there's hardly any difference, we don't use any qt5 features
1626 2014-08-27 20:47:23 <sipa> the only reason would be having no qt4 libs present...
1627 2014-08-27 20:47:25 <cfields> wumpus: so they don't have to install all of qt?
1628 2014-08-27 20:47:25 weilu has joined
1629 2014-08-27 20:47:37 <wumpus> cfields: but is that an actual problem? 
1630 2014-08-27 20:47:46 <wumpus> have you ever heard a report of someone not having qt installed?
1631 2014-08-27 20:47:58 paveljanik has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1632 2014-08-27 20:48:11 <Luke-Jr> (no-GUI systems don't count)
1633 2014-08-27 20:48:33 <cfields> wumpus: the qt4/qt5 split is going to complicate that, but it's a fair point
1634 2014-08-27 20:48:33 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: hah, I mean people that want to run the GUI in the first place
1635 2014-08-27 20:48:38 hanti is now known as HANTI
1636 2014-08-27 20:48:46 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it reads a bit strange, agreed :p
1637 2014-08-27 20:49:15 <cfields> wumpus: ok, clearly the least contentious way forward for me is to stick with qt4 shared for the gitian PR. So I'll do that.
1638 2014-08-27 20:49:29 <wumpus> cfields: I agree, that could compilcate it
1639 2014-08-27 20:50:01 <cfields> Imo that's not very forward-thinking. But it's no use debating until it's causing real-world problems.
1640 2014-08-27 20:50:16 <cfields> will work on hooking that up
1641 2014-08-27 20:50:17 <wumpus> we have enough real problems right now, please don't go forward-looking :p
1642 2014-08-27 20:50:35 <sipa> i remember an advertizement in high school for the math olympiad
1643 2014-08-27 20:50:50 <cfields> I still _really_ don't like that different platorms will be using entirely different versions though
1644 2014-08-27 20:51:01 <sipa> translated, it read: "hey! are you looking for problems? solve them yourself, and get a kick if you notice it works out"
1645 2014-08-27 20:51:19 <sipa> trouble/problems was the same word in dutch, making the pun slightly less terrible
1646 2014-08-27 20:51:23 <jgarzik> cfields, <shrug>  sometimes you can't upgrade the platform   Game and mobile devs run into that all the time.
1647 2014-08-27 20:51:45 <wumpus> sipa: hehe
1648 2014-08-27 20:51:59 <cfields> jgarzik: understood. That was just a gripe as i resigned to deal with it.
1649 2014-08-27 20:52:03 <wumpus> cfields: I don't *like* it either
1650 2014-08-27 20:52:08 <sipa> wumpus: "hey, zoek je problemen? los ze dan zelf op, en krijg een kick als je merkt dat alles klopt"
1651 2014-08-27 20:52:12 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1652 2014-08-27 20:52:24 MolokoBox has joined
1653 2014-08-27 20:52:31 <lechuga__> did we just go dutch
1654 2014-08-27 20:52:35 <cfields> sipa: wtf? the last advertisement was translated!
1655 2014-08-27 20:52:52 <sipa> cfields: i just gave wumpus the original
1656 2014-08-27 20:52:55 lechuga__ is now known as lechuga_
1657 2014-08-27 20:52:57 <jgarzik> rinkeldekinkel
1658 2014-08-27 20:52:59 <wumpus> cfields: it's just a mess either way, there is no sane way to ship a single, UI-using executable on linux
1659 2014-08-27 20:53:07 <lechuga_> lol
1660 2014-08-27 20:53:13 <sipa> nieuwe nieuwstraa
1661 2014-08-27 20:53:15 <sipa> nieuwe nieuwstraat
1662 2014-08-27 20:53:21 <lechuga_> sinsinapplesaap
1663 2014-08-27 20:53:27 <sipa> sinaasappel, you mean?
1664 2014-08-27 20:53:30 <lechuga_> ya thats it
1665 2014-08-27 20:53:35 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I think it's somewhat intentional.
1666 2014-08-27 20:53:43 <sipa> sorry, should probably move to #bitcoin-nl
1667 2014-08-27 20:53:46 <lechuga_> lol
1668 2014-08-27 20:53:52 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: !
1669 2014-08-27 20:53:53 <cfields> wumpus: agreed. I'll just put it back like it was so we can skip that argument for this change.
1670 2014-08-27 20:53:57 <lechuga_> luke-r: re
1671 2014-08-27 20:54:00 <lechuga_> jr*
1672 2014-08-27 20:54:20 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: you gonna have time to finish that merge req of yours any time soon, or should I be looking to finish it myself and/or hand it off to someone else? :p
1673 2014-08-27 20:54:21 <lechuga_> i think ive been idle for 2 months
1674 2014-08-27 20:54:24 <wumpus> cfields: unless you provide all the graphics, fonts, etc yourself like a game, then you just link against X11, load the GL driver at startup, and voila :)
1675 2014-08-27 20:54:43 <sipa> wumpus: can't we just have a fbdev ui?
1676 2014-08-27 20:54:44 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: then you fail on Wayland! :P
1677 2014-08-27 20:54:49 <lechuga_> u can feel free to hand it off as i wont liekly get to it within the next few weeks
1678 2014-08-27 20:54:56 <cfields> wumpus: well that's what I did in my last job :)
1679 2014-08-27 20:54:59 <lechuga_> have a big opensrc project im working on
1680 2014-08-27 20:55:04 <lechuga_> trying to get ready for the alpha release
1681 2014-08-27 20:55:06 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: ok..
1682 2014-08-27 20:55:09 <wumpus> sipa: qt can work on fbdev IIRC
1683 2014-08-27 20:55:16 <cfields> we wrote our own ui toolkit, with gl/gles/egl abstractions
1684 2014-08-27 20:55:26 <cfields> a different kind of hell :)
1685 2014-08-27 20:55:29 <sipa> wumpus: dafuq
1686 2014-08-27 20:55:34 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I think that died when Nokia sold it? :/
1687 2014-08-27 20:55:59 ItSANgo has joined
1688 2014-08-27 20:56:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: oh, may be, I know some embedded devices use qt fullscreen without X, not sure how
1689 2014-08-27 20:56:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: once upon a time, Qt had an entire X11 alternative
1690 2014-08-27 20:56:09 <cfields> it can work on egl, which means that it can work on bare-metal if vendors support it
1691 2014-08-27 20:56:14 justanotheruser has joined
1692 2014-08-27 20:56:15 MolokoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1693 2014-08-27 20:56:17 <wumpus> cfields: right
1694 2014-08-27 20:56:19 <cfields> ^^ qt
1695 2014-08-27 20:56:26 <Luke-Jr> Sharp Zaurus ran Qt as its windowing system
1696 2014-08-27 20:56:29 <lechuga_> qt so gross
1697 2014-08-27 20:56:36 <lechuga_>  </troll>
1698 2014-08-27 20:57:41 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: you must be thinking of another "cute"
1699 2014-08-27 20:58:38 <lechuga_> hard 2 know wats going on in this head at any given time
1700 2014-08-27 20:59:47 <sipa> ooh! github now shows a composite avatar on commits where the author and committer are different
1701 2014-08-27 20:59:57 llllllllll has joined
1702 2014-08-27 21:00:06 <jgarzik> Yep.  Qt works on embedded, including fbdev.  Writing an fbdev graphics driver was my very first foray into kernel hacking. </old man>
1703 2014-08-27 21:00:08 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4737/commits
1704 2014-08-27 21:00:44 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is that new? :p
1705 2014-08-27 21:00:51 <sipa> i new noticed it
1706 2014-08-27 21:00:53 <sipa> *never
1707 2014-08-27 21:01:05 <wumpus> it's pretty new
1708 2014-08-27 21:01:14 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm turning $OLD in 2 weeks, ok?
1709 2014-08-27 21:01:34 * Luke-Jr secretly plans a birthday party for sipa\
1710 2014-08-27 21:01:40 <dgenr8> embedded webserver = best cross platform GUI
1711 2014-08-27 21:01:52 <jgarzik> dgenr8, seems so
1712 2014-08-27 21:01:55 GM0127 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1713 2014-08-27 21:01:56 <cfields> sipa: false.
1714 2014-08-27 21:02:02 benrcole has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1715 2014-08-27 21:02:09 <cfields> sipa: you're turning $WISE. Trust me, I just did it :)
1716 2014-08-27 21:02:14 <sipa> haha
1717 2014-08-27 21:02:17 benrcole has joined
1718 2014-08-27 21:02:54 <cfields> i've been sharing my wisdoms since. You'd be amazed how many people aren't interested in good wisdom.
1719 2014-08-27 21:03:06 <Luke-Jr> cfields: are you implying sipa isn't $WISE already? :p
1720 2014-08-27 21:03:10 <wumpus> dgenr8: well cross-browser development isn't that much fun either
1721 2014-08-27 21:03:18 <dgenr8> wumpus: so true
1722 2014-08-27 21:03:21 <sipa> cfields: friend of mine just actually celebrated his Gi seconds of age
1723 2014-08-27 21:03:25 <sipa> that's _OLD_
1724 2014-08-27 21:03:26 <cfields> Luke-Jr: very much so. For about 2 weeks, he could learn much from me.
1725 2014-08-27 21:03:45 <Luke-Jr> lol
1726 2014-08-27 21:03:50 <sipa> cfields: hey, i wrote some non-trivial autoconf stuff!
1727 2014-08-27 21:03:57 <sipa> non-trivial for me, at least...
1728 2014-08-27 21:04:24 <lechuga_> there is such a thing as trivial autoconf?
1729 2014-08-27 21:04:30 <sipa> for cfields, there is
1730 2014-08-27 21:04:33 <lechuga_> ic
1731 2014-08-27 21:04:34 <cfields> sipa: hehe, that could only prove that you enjoy pain. Not sure that's worth bragging about :)
1732 2014-08-27 21:04:48 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1733 2014-08-27 21:04:51 <sipa> cfields: it must mean you're somehow.... infecting me
1734 2014-08-27 21:05:04 <sipa> it's repulsve </agentsmith>
1735 2014-08-27 21:05:06 <Luke-Jr> cfields: btw, it probably doesn't do everything you're looking for, but I did take the submodule autoconf a little further in https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer/pull/546
1736 2014-08-27 21:05:17 <Luke-Jr> (which could coincidentally use some peer review if anyone has time)
1737 2014-08-27 21:05:25 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1738 2014-08-27 21:06:00 <cfields> Luke-Jr: i didn't realize you were using an actual git submodule
1739 2014-08-27 21:06:14 aphorise has joined
1740 2014-08-27 21:06:17 lclc has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1741 2014-08-27 21:06:24 <Luke-Jr> cfields: in BCCore, I wasn't.
1742 2014-08-27 21:06:42 <sipa> cfields: recently some interns at work went to watch "The Matrix" for the first time; when I wondered how they got hired without having seen it, I was confronted with the painful answer "I was 4 years old!"
1743 2014-08-27 21:06:47 <cfields> Luke-Jr: btw, i didn't say i was against that type of change. Only that it needs to be very flexible
1744 2014-08-27 21:06:49 <Luke-Jr> the autoconf stuff doesn't know/care how it gets there either
1745 2014-08-27 21:06:58 EasyAt is now known as EasyAt|sofa
1746 2014-08-27 21:07:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: O.O
1747 2014-08-27 21:07:37 <cfields> sipa: yikes!
1748 2014-08-27 21:08:19 <blast_> hahahha sipa the burn
1749 2014-08-27 21:08:40 <gmaxwell> yea, one of the interns at mozilla last year said to another intern about me "he's used BBSes" or something like that.
1750 2014-08-27 21:08:54 <lechuga_> lol
1751 2014-08-27 21:08:56 <blast_> That feel when you drop a movie reference everyone should know, and everyone in the room was born years after it lost any relevance D; lol
1752 2014-08-27 21:08:58 <sipa> hey! i still know what those are at least!
1753 2014-08-27 21:09:15 <lechuga_> i'm on a MUD right now
1754 2014-08-27 21:09:22 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: MUDs will never die
1755 2014-08-27 21:09:31 <lechuga_> :)
1756 2014-08-27 21:09:32 <blast_> the MUDChain
1757 2014-08-27 21:09:36 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: it's still bleeding-edge gaming for the unsighted
1758 2014-08-27 21:09:47 <blast_> its argueably the best graphics
1759 2014-08-27 21:09:48 <blast_> brain power
1760 2014-08-27 21:09:48 <lechuga_> lol
1761 2014-08-27 21:09:52 <Luke-Jr> blast_: that too
1762 2014-08-27 21:10:09 <blast_> I would imagine so deeply for those games
1763 2014-08-27 21:10:25 <Luke-Jr> MOO still has a much better permissions model than UNIX IMO :p
1764 2014-08-27 21:10:27 <blast_> and when some very rare thing woudl occur in the zone your on becuase there was so much out of control stuff going on at all times
1765 2014-08-27 21:10:38 <cfields> sipa: a while back my gf and i were driving around looking for a restaurant. Her iphone took us to the wrong place. I told her to call and ask so she did. I heard her say "oh, you're not there? Ok, we'll gps it on my boyfriend's phone. Thxbye".
1766 2014-08-27 21:10:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: wasn't it extremely similar to UNIX?
1767 2014-08-27 21:10:58 <cfields> she couldn't concieve of a time when there was no gps. She would've never thought to just *ask* the lady how to get there.
1768 2014-08-27 21:11:11 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: in some ways, but not in at least one critical way
1769 2014-08-27 21:11:24 <lechuga_> which?
1770 2014-08-27 21:11:30 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: in MOO, *functions* have programmers/owners, and run with their programmers' permissions
1771 2014-08-27 21:11:30 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I remember it had rwx permission bits at least
1772 2014-08-27 21:11:35 <sipa> cfields: you need to invoke xkcd 783 some time
1773 2014-08-27 21:11:39 <sipa> cfields: (yes, i had to google that)
1774 2014-08-27 21:11:49 <lechuga_> o thats cool and scary
1775 2014-08-27 21:11:50 <dgenr8> my vote for therapeutic healing merge is #2340
1776 2014-08-27 21:11:52 <blast_> cfields, my buddy lastnight had to argue with his newphew, about why he coudlnt 'replay' what was just on tv
1777 2014-08-27 21:11:53 <Luke-Jr> so you can call other programmers' code to interact with things they own, etc
1778 2014-08-27 21:12:00 <blast_> becuase the kid is used to a DVR/Netflix lifestyle
1779 2014-08-27 21:12:08 <Luke-Jr> and only a subset of functions need "root" perms
1780 2014-08-27 21:12:09 <blast_> and has never been in a situation he cant replay a video or go to a specific part in it or etc
1781 2014-08-27 21:12:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ah yes that was the default, and a pretty safe default at that
1782 2014-08-27 21:12:22 <blast_> he couldnt understand 'what do you mean it just plays once' it took like 30 min
1783 2014-08-27 21:12:30 dionyziz_ is now known as dionyziz
1784 2014-08-27 21:12:50 <cfields> sipa: aurgh! That implies that I'm a cranky old git!
1785 2014-08-27 21:12:53 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it made untrusted multiuser programming a very safe reality. a shame I don't think it can be efficiently applied to modern CPUs
1786 2014-08-27 21:13:00 dionyziz is now known as Guest15873
1787 2014-08-27 21:13:04 <cfields> *cranky wise git.
1788 2014-08-27 21:13:07 <sipa> cfields: YOU are, yes
1789 2014-08-27 21:13:09 moa has joined
1790 2014-08-27 21:13:10 <sipa> I'm not
1791 2014-08-27 21:13:15 <sipa> not YET
1792 2014-08-27 21:13:17 <cfields> haha
1793 2014-08-27 21:13:33 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you just run away when you don't want to hear it!
1794 2014-08-27 21:13:34 * Luke-Jr hides
1795 2014-08-27 21:13:48 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well in a way it's similar to the android model, every vendor (signing the applications) gets its own UID/GID
1796 2014-08-27 21:13:59 <sipa> i need abstruse goose #249
1797 2014-08-27 21:14:04 <sipa> cfields: ^
1798 2014-08-27 21:14:08 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: but the whole application runs with the same permissions
1799 2014-08-27 21:14:09 <cfields> blast_: heh. even further, soon kids will have no concept of a show being on at a certain time.
1800 2014-08-27 21:14:15 Guest15873 is now known as dionyziz
1801 2014-08-27 21:14:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_iAPX_432
1802 2014-08-27 21:14:17 <sipa> cfields: and rightfully so!
1803 2014-08-27 21:15:06 <lechuga_> no registers
1804 2014-08-27 21:15:08 <lechuga_> madness
1805 2014-08-27 21:15:13 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, but still the application runs with its own permission (which are the vendor's permissions), and not that of the person that launched it, of course all applications request all possible permissions and there is permissions inflation, but the original idea was nice
1806 2014-08-27 21:15:43 <sipa> there used to be this tool which allowed you to remove permissions post-install from apps
1807 2014-08-27 21:15:58 <sipa> and the corresponding syscalls would just fail
1808 2014-08-27 21:15:59 <wumpus> that should have been a standard part of the OS
1809 2014-08-27 21:16:03 <sipa> it was
1810 2014-08-27 21:16:20 <blast_> cfields: But they will know what "day" the entire season 1 premiers on netflix
1811 2014-08-27 21:16:23 <sipa> but then google removed it from some odd reason before release
1812 2014-08-27 21:16:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: of course the apps probably tested and complained if you did that?
1813 2014-08-27 21:16:34 <sipa> Luke-Jr: nope
1814 2014-08-27 21:16:34 <cfields> heh
1815 2014-08-27 21:16:44 <Luke-Jr> O.o
1816 2014-08-27 21:16:51 <Luke-Jr> but it was removed why? :p
1817 2014-08-27 21:17:11 <sipa> no clue
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1820 2014-08-27 21:19:56 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that iAPX architecture sounds very futuristic, at least the capability system, even though it's from 1981... another example of ideas ahead of their time failing and being forgotten
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1824 2014-08-27 21:21:09 <gmaxwell> wumpus: That architecture lives again, however: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/  but yea.. I'd totally love that iAPX architecture today. I wouldn't care if it were 20% of the speed for general code. It's easy to be overpowered for many applications. ::sigh::
1825 2014-08-27 21:21:26 extor has joined
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1827 2014-08-27 21:23:52 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I wouldn't mind either, for many things I'd prefer security to performance any time
1828 2014-08-27 21:24:09 kermit has joined
1829 2014-08-27 21:25:04 <jrick> wumpus: hmm? wasn't it you just a couple days ago saying "show me the benchmarks and I can be convinced of anything"? :p
1830 2014-08-27 21:25:06 Burrito has joined
1831 2014-08-27 21:25:12 <wumpus> applying capability-based compartmentalisation selectively to support both our most trusted (OS kernel, low-level language runtimes), and least trustworthy (web browsers and servers), software components.     .. yes, this would be ideal for web browsers
1832 2014-08-27 21:25:31 <wumpus> jrick: well that was in response to someone claiming something was faster
1833 2014-08-27 21:25:33 <gmaxwell> jrick: that was for a change that was speculated to improve performance. Not security.
1834 2014-08-27 21:25:38 <jrick> hehe I know, just poking fun
1835 2014-08-27 21:25:57 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, I just started my DNS seed back up
1836 2014-08-27 21:25:58 <wumpus> I really like to see numbers in that case, because I know how easy it is to think something is faster even though it makes no difference at all
1837 2014-08-27 21:26:44 <sipa> statistics time: size of a 'git bundle' describing the commits between versions: 0.1.5->0.2:141k, ->0.3:204k, ->0.4:3018k, ->0.5:1578k, ->0.6:1081k, ->0.7:2403k, ->0.8:1496k, ->0.9:11057k, ->master:5771k
1838 2014-08-27 21:27:04 <sipa> i'm very surprised that 0.5 (with qt gui merge) isn't the largest one
1839 2014-08-27 21:27:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm surprised embedding a whole copy of leveldb isn't.
1840 2014-08-27 21:28:09 <sipa> ha!
1841 2014-08-27 21:28:22 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1842 2014-08-27 21:28:36 <Luke-Jr> wtf did we add in 0.9?
1843 2014-08-27 21:28:44 <wumpus> a webbrowser?
1844 2014-08-27 21:28:49 <Luke-Jr> (I'm actually still running on 0.8-based code myself)
1845 2014-08-27 21:29:13 <wumpus> satoshi's spoken voice commands?
1846 2014-08-27 21:29:14 Btceldur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1847 2014-08-27 21:29:17 <sipa> 0.9 had some new artwork, no?
1848 2014-08-27 21:29:21 aphorise has joined
1849 2014-08-27 21:29:33 <wumpus> yes, the splash was replaced, and a huge MacOSX icon was added
1850 2014-08-27 21:29:44 <sipa> i hope not an 11 Mbyte one
1851 2014-08-27 21:30:26 <wumpus> no, not quite
1852 2014-08-27 21:30:45 <sipa> anyway: total history: 30481k
1853 2014-08-27 21:32:04 <wumpus> sipa: could be the translations, those are huge
1854 2014-08-27 21:32:07 <sipa> ah!
1855 2014-08-27 21:33:41 <wumpus> the gui code itself isn't that huge (if count what is in the repository, not autogenerated files from qt)
1856 2014-08-27 21:36:07 <wumpus> but yeah localization comes at a cost, although the size in the executable is much smaller than the xml files in the repository (for example, all of them contain the source messages as well...)
1857 2014-08-27 21:36:39 <wumpus> that's another reason for not packaging two bitconi-qt executables though
1858 2014-08-27 21:46:01 <Luke-Jr> probably some way to keep resources out of the bin?
1859 2014-08-27 21:47:19 * Luke-Jr ponders if there's some portable way to detect nearly-out-of-memory and prune orphan pools when it is
1860 2014-08-27 21:47:49 <Luke-Jr> although that doesn't address the getutxos memory thing I guess
1861 2014-08-27 21:48:06 <sipa> we should aim for bounded (or accountable) memory usage anyway
1862 2014-08-27 21:48:14 weilu has joined
1863 2014-08-27 21:48:27 <sipa> and when limits are reached, throttle or disconnect the most demanding peers
1864 2014-08-27 21:48:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right, just thinking in general
1865 2014-08-27 21:48:49 <sipa> bounded memory use is even better as it is much more predictable as a service client
1866 2014-08-27 21:49:32 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, it is possible to keep resources out of the bin, but we've opted to include them because that makes for easier portable executables
1867 2014-08-27 21:50:02 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: as soon as it consists of multiple files there's the problem of locating them, what to do if they're missing, etc
1868 2014-08-27 21:50:32 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: meh, "don't do that" to people who move it away from resources or delete resources
1869 2014-08-27 21:50:50 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: people will do it anyway and complain, it's easier to just make it impossible
1870 2014-08-27 21:51:24 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: except then we end up with this set of problems ;)
1871 2014-08-27 21:51:42 <wumpus> what problems? the binary is tiny compared to the data we're handling
1872 2014-08-27 21:52:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: having to duplicate it for every binary
1873 2014-08-27 21:52:24 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1874 2014-08-27 21:52:51 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that's also solved by only having one (UI) binary
1875 2014-08-27 21:53:46 <sipa> we can use static qt5, but when qt4 so is detected, patch the binary at runtime to replace the linked qt5 function calls with qt4 dlsym calls?
1876 2014-08-27 21:53:47 <wumpus> but sure, as soon as we're going to split off dynamic libraries and such the situation changes
1877 2014-08-27 21:53:49 <sipa> *ducks*
1878 2014-08-27 21:54:30 <kanzure> wasn't the qt portion going to be split out into a separate repo?
1879 2014-08-27 21:54:39 <sipa> we're talking about qt itself here
1880 2014-08-27 21:54:40 <wumpus> kanzure: no
1881 2014-08-27 21:54:41 <sipa> not the gui
1882 2014-08-27 21:54:44 <kanzure> oh.
1883 2014-08-27 21:54:52 <wumpus> sipa: that's ... interesting
1884 2014-08-27 21:55:02 <wumpus> sipa: but almost impossible with C++ :(
1885 2014-08-27 21:55:14 cbeams has joined
1886 2014-08-27 21:55:59 <cfields> especially when qt uses its own code-generator. it hardly even qualifies as c++.
1887 2014-08-27 21:56:13 Emzy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1888 2014-08-27 21:57:01 <Luke-Jr> side note: Qt 5 isn't even available as an option on Gentoo yet <.<
1889 2014-08-27 21:57:06 <wumpus> with a C library you could just dlsym the necessary methods
1890 2014-08-27 21:57:09 <sipa> :o
1891 2014-08-27 21:57:14 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, qt4 is still the choice for the real world (TM)
1892 2014-08-27 21:57:17 banghouse has joined
1893 2014-08-27 21:58:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: with a C library, we probably wouldn't even *need* to dlsym them
1894 2014-08-27 21:58:58 <wumpus> I think our original rationale for switching to qt5 in our releases was some problem with macosx
1895 2014-08-27 21:59:40 <wumpus> better support for highdpi
1896 2014-08-27 21:59:46 <sipa> let's just switch to an HTML gui, mkay?
1897 2014-08-27 21:59:59 <cfields> wumpus: yea, qt4 can't cross-compile for shit
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1903 2014-08-27 22:00:42 <cfields> qt5 was the only sane choice for deterministic osx
1904 2014-08-27 22:00:50 rdponticelli has joined
1905 2014-08-27 22:00:55 <wumpus> sipa: using qwebkit!
1906 2014-08-27 22:01:08 <wumpus> let's embed a web browser and javascript engine!
1907 2014-08-27 22:01:12 <sipa> NODE_JS
1908 2014-08-27 22:01:33 <wumpus> cfields: right, so I remember correctly
1909 2014-08-27 22:01:40 <cfields> yep
1910 2014-08-27 22:01:49 <jcorgan> sipa: it's not robust if there is no PHP involved
1911 2014-08-27 22:02:37 <wumpus> jcorgan: JS is only the second most crazy programming language in existence, it's not complete without number one, PHP 
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1914 2014-08-27 22:04:24 <jcorgan> btw, where is the current documentation for how to do a cross-compile for mingw?
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1918 2014-08-27 22:06:29 <dgenr8> js is #1.  and that's the "truthy"
1919 2014-08-27 22:07:02 Burrito has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1920 2014-08-27 22:07:34 <wumpus> jcorgan: the preferred way to build windows executables is using gitian
1921 2014-08-27 22:07:45 CryptoDustin has left ()
1922 2014-08-27 22:08:20 <cfields> the new easy way is to use the depends
1923 2014-08-27 22:08:27 <wumpus> I'm sure cfields knows how to do it manually
1924 2014-08-27 22:08:29 <wumpus> right
1925 2014-08-27 22:08:29 <cfields> jcorgan: some feedback would be nice if you'd like to build that way
1926 2014-08-27 22:09:05 <cfields> wumpus: what was special about the qt 4 version we used?
1927 2014-08-27 22:09:13 Burrito has joined
1928 2014-08-27 22:09:17 <cfields> iirc it had to be some low/high api in order to keep compat somewhere
1929 2014-08-27 22:09:18 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1930 2014-08-27 22:09:22 <wumpus> cfields: it's the holy version(TM)
1931 2014-08-27 22:09:24 <cfields> it's... so vague in my head
1932 2014-08-27 22:09:44 <jcorgan> well, in my case i'm not actually looking to build it, just to understand how it is done.  we're looking at trying the same sort of thing in the gnuradio project, except we have about 200k LOC and a dozen other project depedencies
1933 2014-08-27 22:09:45 <wumpus> cfields: yes, it is still compatible with that forgetful linux distribution I've forgotten the name of
1934 2014-08-27 22:09:47 <cfields> wumpus: doesn't the 4.x.y matter for some reason, though?
1935 2014-08-27 22:10:00 <wumpus> cfields: tails
1936 2014-08-27 22:10:51 <wumpus> cfields: yes it matters, if you compile against x.y it won't run against <x.y
1937 2014-08-27 22:10:51 <cfields> jcorgan: make -C depends HOST=x86_64-w64-mingw32 && ./configure
1938 2014-08-27 22:11:06 <jcorgan> o.O?
1939 2014-08-27 22:11:20 <jcorgan> will go try that out
1940 2014-08-27 22:11:49 <cfields> wumpus: ah, ugh. so i'm wasting my time on 4.8 then.
1941 2014-08-27 22:11:52 * cfields backs up even further
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1947 2014-08-27 22:15:08 <wumpus> cfields: 4.6.3 is what is used by debian squeeze, which tails is/was based on back when I picked it
1948 2014-08-27 22:15:46 <jcorgan> cfields: so far so good, the depends stuff is retrieving and compiling
1949 2014-08-27 22:16:42 <wumpus> oh that's *old*stable now? so wheezy is the new debian stable?
1950 2014-08-27 22:17:37 <wumpus> ah, right, tails was also planning on switching, but for some reason they hadn't done so yet
1951 2014-08-27 22:18:08 <Luke-Jr> 4.8.2 seems like a common minimum (bound by Debian stable) nowadays
1952 2014-08-27 22:18:14 <cfields> wumpus: yea, looks like they're on wheezy as of 1.1
1953 2014-08-27 22:18:16 <wumpus> wheezy does have 4.8.2
1954 2014-08-27 22:18:20 <wumpus> cfields: good!
1955 2014-08-27 22:18:30 <cfields> wumpus: was that the only hold-back?
1956 2014-08-27 22:18:40 <Luke-Jr> RHEL 7 seems to be 4.8.5
1957 2014-08-27 22:19:02 <cfields> does patch-version really matter? Hard to believe it would :\
1958 2014-08-27 22:19:28 <wumpus> cfields: well I'm sure some people will be running it on some awful old debian boxes and will complain if it breaks, so I'd be careful 
1959 2014-08-27 22:19:35 MolokoBox has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1960 2014-08-27 22:20:05 cagedwisdom has joined
1961 2014-08-27 22:20:26 <wumpus> I first linked against 4.8, I think in 0.9
1962 2014-08-27 22:20:50 <jcorgan> cfields: any way to get it to parallelize the build?  i've got 48 cores
1963 2014-08-27 22:20:59 <wumpus> then there was a whole shitstorm of people 'developers don't care about stable distros!00!!)0!' so eventually there was 0.9.1 that linked against the older qt
1964 2014-08-27 22:21:10 <cfields> jcorgan: yea, make -jX will work
1965 2014-08-27 22:21:33 <jcorgan> did that but it looks like it is not propagating to the make invocations on the d/led projects
1966 2014-08-27 22:21:37 <cfields> jcorgan: it only builds one _lib_ at a time though, for the sake of determinism
1967 2014-08-27 22:21:50 Dr-G2 has joined
1968 2014-08-27 22:22:31 wivfbir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1969 2014-08-27 22:23:21 <jcorgan> so it is doing the libs one at a time, sure, but it is only doing plain make -j1 on them
1970 2014-08-27 22:23:26 melvster has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1971 2014-08-27 22:23:40 <wumpus> rcfields: is there any problem with building against 4.6.x versus 4.8? has code rot set in?
1972 2014-08-27 22:24:05 <wumpus> I do vaguely remember some problems with building qt 4.6.3
1973 2014-08-27 22:24:10 <cfields> jcorgan: -jX works for sure. I see the scrolling text in my sleep :)
1974 2014-08-27 22:24:23 melvster has joined
1975 2014-08-27 22:24:51 <cfields> wumpus: no clue. I only grumped because i'd just gotten 4.8 building. 4.6 is probably fine
1976 2014-08-27 22:24:52 <wumpus> so can we get a 48 core for bitcoin development too? :p I spend too much time waiting for compiles
1977 2014-08-27 22:25:01 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: older Qt or older stdc++?
1978 2014-08-27 22:25:17 <jcorgan> wumpus: i can go from scratch to full bitcoin compile and install in about 2 mins or less
1979 2014-08-27 22:25:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: older qt on newish stdc++
1980 2014-08-27 22:25:26 Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1981 2014-08-27 22:25:35 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: but I may be remembering wrongly
1982 2014-08-27 22:25:49 <cfields> Luke-Jr: i assume the issue is that it'll link in newer 4.8 apis if possible
1983 2014-08-27 22:25:55 <cfields> wumpus: you're using ccache, right?
1984 2014-08-27 22:26:18 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1985 2014-08-27 22:27:05 WeCluster has quit (Quit: WeCluster)
1986 2014-08-27 22:27:42 WeCluster has joined
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1988 2014-08-27 22:28:35 <wumpus> cfields: yes - there are some conditions in bitcoin-qt source that only work if qt>4.7, and also some inline functions in qt internally will be different in the 4.8 headers
1989 2014-08-27 22:28:50 aphorise has joined
1990 2014-08-27 22:29:13 <cfields> makes sense
1991 2014-08-27 22:30:54 <wumpus> I really don't know how long it makes sense to keep supporting old distributions, but as we don't require any fancy new GUI features and we want to support a wide a platform as possible it makes sense to aim low
1992 2014-08-27 22:32:08 <cfields> sure, no argument from me
1993 2014-08-27 22:32:23 random_cat_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1994 2014-08-27 22:32:42 <wumpus> this is also the first project I work on where we care about that :)
1995 2014-08-27 22:32:44 * cfields reaches the "why the hell does that work?" phase of development
1996 2014-08-27 22:33:34 random_cat_ has joined
1997 2014-08-27 22:34:01 agricocb has joined
1998 2014-08-27 22:34:02 <sipa> cfields: a shrodinbug?
1999 2014-08-27 22:34:04 agricocb has quit (Changing host)
2000 2014-08-27 22:34:04 agricocb has joined
2001 2014-08-27 22:34:16 <sipa> *schroedingbug
2002 2014-08-27 22:34:26 <wumpus> cfields: I've never quite grasped what ccache does, it does some more advanced dependency tracking than autoconf/make itself?
2003 2014-08-27 22:34:47 <cfields> wumpus: you're not using it? apt-get it. you'll thank me :)
2004 2014-08-27 22:34:47 <jcorgan> cfields: ok, compiling qt finally kicked in more than a few cores, so -j is working after all
2005 2014-08-27 22:34:56 <sipa> wumpus: ccache is awesome when it works
2006 2014-08-27 22:35:07 <sipa> and yes, it does more; it doesn't do dependency tracking at all
2007 2014-08-27 22:35:11 <sipa> it checks the source being compiled
2008 2014-08-27 22:35:14 <cfields> jcorgan: ah, you might've been seeing openssl. It's forced to -j1 due to their busted parallel make
2009 2014-08-27 22:35:14 <jcorgan> couldn't live without ccache
2010 2014-08-27 22:35:25 <jcorgan> that was exactly it
2011 2014-08-27 22:35:31 hearn has joined
2012 2014-08-27 22:35:41 <gmaxwell> in fedora ccache is just shimmed into gcc and works everywhere.
2013 2014-08-27 22:35:45 <wumpus> cfields: well I usually wipe my tree between builds to make sure nothing is accidentally left from a previous build that interferes
2014 2014-08-27 22:35:59 <cfields> wumpus: doesn't matter
2015 2014-08-27 22:36:01 <wumpus> (at least when switching to a different branch)
2016 2014-08-27 22:36:06 <sipa> i have had cases where my build was terribly broken, en no recompile seemed to fix it
2017 2014-08-27 22:36:16 <sipa> and ccache -C fixed it
2018 2014-08-27 22:36:38 <cfields> wumpus: make && git clean -xfd && make
2019 2014-08-27 22:36:39 <sipa> but that's very rare
2020 2014-08-27 22:36:49 <cfields> if ccache is on, the make should take ~15sec
2021 2014-08-27 22:36:51 <wumpus> cfields: I know, I have aliased that to 'git napalm'
2022 2014-08-27 22:36:58 <sipa> lol
2023 2014-08-27 22:37:05 <cfields> wumpus: heh
2024 2014-08-27 22:37:11 <jcorgan> wumpus: ccache does a hash of the preprocessed source and retrieves the resulting object file from an on disk cache
2025 2014-08-27 22:37:20 <jcorgan> it also takes into account the command line options
2026 2014-08-27 22:37:21 <sipa> source + compile options
2027 2014-08-27 22:37:22 <cfields> wumpus: was just illustrating the point that you don't have to keep stuff around, it'll work even after napalm.
2028 2014-08-27 22:37:33 <wumpus>   jcorgan: ahh... the *preprocessed* source, that's the part I was missing
2029 2014-08-27 22:37:40 hearn has quit (Client Quit)
2030 2014-08-27 22:37:43 <cfields> wumpus: real-world proof: https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/33604129#L566
2031 2014-08-27 22:37:44 <wumpus> jcorgan: I was thinking how the hell can it work, what if a header changes
2032 2014-08-27 22:37:51 <jcorgan> right
2033 2014-08-27 22:37:56 <sipa> right
2034 2014-08-27 22:38:09 <wumpus> cfields: well I'll give it a try :)
2035 2014-08-27 22:38:10 <cfields> make time: 10.97s
2036 2014-08-27 22:38:17 <jcorgan> if you've been waiting on compiles your productivity will go up dramatically :)
2037 2014-08-27 22:38:40 <sipa> it's so nice that after you've built & tested a particular PR, and want to merge it, and switch back to it, and build it, and *tadaa* done
2038 2014-08-27 22:39:27 <sipa> wumpus: you like #4737? :)
2039 2014-08-27 22:39:58 <jcorgan> cfields: ugh, depends compile fails in bdb 4.8.30
2040 2014-08-27 22:40:14 Dr-G2 is now known as Dr-G
2041 2014-08-27 22:40:24 <cfields> jcorgan: if you're up for it, mind joining #bitcoin-build and discussing?
2042 2014-08-27 22:40:27 <wumpus> sipa: hmm let me see
2043 2014-08-27 22:40:35 <jcorgan> sure
2044 2014-08-27 22:40:40 <cfields> i'd like for that to be bullet-proof, so no failure is acceptable
2045 2014-08-27 22:40:54 <sipa> wumpus: i want to start clang-formatting stuff :)
2046 2014-08-27 22:41:02 rfreemanw has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2047 2014-08-27 22:41:05 <wumpus> sipa: yes it seems convenient for the clang formatting
2048 2014-08-27 22:41:08 <cfields> sipa: that one's been high on my list to test, just haven't gotten to it yet
2049 2014-08-27 22:41:52 <sipa> so... extensive testing is hard, as you'd need 1) an alert message  2) an accounting entry  3) some wallet transactions  4) ...
2050 2014-08-27 22:42:02 <wumpus> sipa: I like the overall idea
2051 2014-08-27 22:42:10 <sipa> but given that it's so generic, it's very unlikely to break in one place and not another
2052 2014-08-27 22:42:43 plaprade has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2053 2014-08-27 22:45:02 <wumpus> well there are some testcases that test allerts, accounting entries, and the wallet
2054 2014-08-27 22:45:19 plaprade has joined
2055 2014-08-27 22:45:27 <sipa> right, we have tests!
2056 2014-08-27 22:46:07 <wumpus> although I am not sure they'd pick it up if the serialization format changes subtly but consistently between serialization and deserialization
2057 2014-08-27 22:46:17 rfreemanw has joined
2058 2014-08-27 22:47:05 <sipa> right, and a typo in some of the conversions could actually cause that
2059 2014-08-27 22:47:05 <wumpus> well - alerttests checks with raw serialized alerts
2060 2014-08-27 22:47:25 airq has joined
2061 2014-08-27 22:47:38 <sipa> and anything block/tx related would be caught by at least the comparison tool
2062 2014-08-27 22:47:42 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2068 2014-08-27 22:54:49 <wumpus> yes
2069 2014-08-27 22:55:13 MolokoBox has joined
2070 2014-08-27 22:58:58 ParisDickinson has joined
2071 2014-08-27 23:01:57 <BlueMatt> any chance anyone wants to sign up to write a relay network client in python/C++?
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2084 2014-08-27 23:16:47 pears has joined
2085 2014-08-27 23:17:06 <cfields> wumpus: still around by chance?
2086 2014-08-27 23:18:29 <pears> hey, does anyone have any wisdom/advice/resources for building bitcoin on windows? (preferably with Visual Studio)
2087 2014-08-27 23:18:55 <nullbyte> BlueMatt, I'm interested
2088 2014-08-27 23:19:30 <cfields> pears: vs isn't supported. if you'd be willing to be patient and help out, it'd be great to get mingw hooked up and working there though.
2089 2014-08-27 23:19:52 <sipa> cfields: Diapolo is building from windows... how is he doing it then?
2090 2014-08-27 23:19:55 <sipa> with mingw though, not VS
2091 2014-08-27 23:20:12 <pears> if mingw is the best option that's fine by me
2092 2014-08-27 23:20:21 <cfields> sipa: seriously? i didn't think anyone ever bothered
2093 2014-08-27 23:20:35 <sipa> he's been doing that since before autotools
2094 2014-08-27 23:20:35 <cfields> it'd be great to hear that it just works :)
2095 2014-08-27 23:20:50 <wumpus> cfields: yes
2096 2014-08-27 23:20:56 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2097 2014-08-27 23:21:28 <pears> is the mingw route more or less the same as the unix instructions then?
2098 2014-08-27 23:21:29 <cfields> wumpus: i got a qt4 shared build, mind giving it a shot and seeing if the desktop integration stuff works?
2099 2014-08-27 23:21:38 <cfields> it's quite late though, tomorrow's fine if you'd prefer
2100 2014-08-27 23:22:25 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: great! go do it. :)
2101 2014-08-27 23:22:26 <sipa> pears: likely, though there probably is nobody in this channel who has actual experience with it
2102 2014-08-27 23:22:31 <Luke-Jr> pears: the only guy who ever builds Bitcoin Core on Windows is not here at the moment (nor often), so you're mostly on your own - though if you post issues maybe we can guess at them
2103 2014-08-27 23:22:46 <Luke-Jr> pears: note official Windows builds are produced on Linux
2104 2014-08-27 23:22:52 <pears> forging new ground, that's awesome haha
2105 2014-08-27 23:22:54 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: the protocol is written up nowhere, but if you dont feel like reading https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/RelayNode/blob/master/src/main/java/com/mattcorallo/relaynode/RelayConnection.java I can write it up in a few sentences
2106 2014-08-27 23:22:54 <wumpus> cfields: that's ok
2107 2014-08-27 23:22:55 DougieBot5000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2108 2014-08-27 23:23:11 <cfields> pears: the missing part will be the depends though. I'd like to get those hooked up as well if you're interested in contributing
2109 2014-08-27 23:23:13 Knuk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2110 2014-08-27 23:23:25 <wumpus> cfields: I'm half asleep but I can manage testing an executable
2111 2014-08-27 23:23:25 aphorise has joined
2112 2014-08-27 23:23:39 <pears> cfields: I'll see if I can't figure that out and submit a pull request
2113 2014-08-27 23:23:55 <nullbyte> BlueMatt, lol, I was wondering about that, alright I'll give it a read, what are the motivations behind porting this to cpp/python?
2114 2014-08-27 23:24:18 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: people see "run java client" and go "JAVA, nooooooooooooooo"
2115 2014-08-27 23:24:18 * Luke-Jr suggests plain old C ;)
2116 2014-08-27 23:24:21 <cfields> pears: well there's a lot missing, not a few things to fix up
2117 2014-08-27 23:24:49 <cfields> wumpus: mm, just tested here and it.. didn't go well. probaby should've done that before pinging you :)
2118 2014-08-27 23:24:54 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: python is nice because then it can be just integrated into p2pool so that p2pool can just launch it as a background thread, but C/C++ is nice because...well, its not python
2119 2014-08-27 23:24:58 <pears> cfields: that's always what I like to hear haha
2120 2014-08-27 23:25:16 <pears> cfields: I'll be back before too long with some more questions I'm sure
2121 2014-08-27 23:25:28 <wumpus> it may be that Diapolo is still using qmake to build bitcoin-qt, he had problems with autotools
2122 2014-08-27 23:25:39 <sipa> wumpus: that may be, yes
2123 2014-08-27 23:25:45 <Luke-Jr> lol, I forgot we kept the qmake file around
2124 2014-08-27 23:25:51 <cfields> that's kinda what i had assumed as well
2125 2014-08-27 23:25:53 <sipa> he'll have a hard time keeping up with all the util splits and stuff
2126 2014-08-27 23:26:20 <cfields> yea, so it'd be great to have someone willing to get it going
2127 2014-08-27 23:26:30 <Luke-Jr> poor guy, wonder why he tortures himself with using Windows
2128 2014-08-27 23:26:49 <cfields> especially now that the depends can be one-click (windows devs love clicks!) away.
2129 2014-08-27 23:26:50 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well the qmake file that we kept around only contains the resources
2130 2014-08-27 23:27:00 <nullbyte> BlueMatt, good a reason as any, do you already know how you want to separate the behavior?
2131 2014-08-27 23:27:38 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: hmm?
2132 2014-08-27 23:28:03 Knuk has joined
2133 2014-08-27 23:28:31 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: if you do python, as long as p2pool can just call startRelayThread(nodeHostName, callbackWithBlocks), I dont care...if you do C, as long as you can run it similarly
2134 2014-08-27 23:31:20 <nullbyte> BlueMatt, yea, I see; I'll have time this weekend to grok the internals and make a first attempt
2135 2014-08-27 23:31:26 t7 has quit (Quit: zzz)
2136 2014-08-27 23:31:33 <BlueMatt> nice
2137 2014-08-27 23:31:49 <nullbyte> how do you run stuff against this using bitcoinj?
2138 2014-08-27 23:31:52 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: I may beat you to it, but we'll see, Ive got a lot of other crap to do too
2139 2014-08-27 23:31:54 <nullbyte> just so i know the behaviors right
2140 2014-08-27 23:32:10 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: for the client, the only bitcoinj usage is to serialize/deserialize
2141 2014-08-27 23:32:20 <BlueMatt> and bitcoinj knows how to speak bitcoin p2p
2142 2014-08-27 23:32:34 Eiii has joined
2143 2014-08-27 23:32:45 * wumpus tries make -C depends HOST=arm-linux-gnueabihf && ./configure
2144 2014-08-27 23:33:18 <midnightmagic> :-o
2145 2014-08-27 23:33:33 <nullbyte> BlueMatt, yea, straightforward, then
2146 2014-08-27 23:34:07 <sipa> ETOOMANYVOWELS
2147 2014-08-27 23:35:18 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2148 2014-08-27 23:36:01 aphorise has joined
2149 2014-08-27 23:36:11 jonasbits has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2150 2014-08-27 23:36:38 <wumpus> cfields: re: depends: is there a way to not build qt/the x11 stuff?
2151 2014-08-27 23:36:55 <cfields> make NO_QT=1
2152 2014-08-27 23:36:59 <wumpus> cool!
2153 2014-08-27 23:37:02 <nullbyte> BlueMatt, re: beating me to it, sure sure, i'm not entirely sure i can commit to 'getting it done' by any specific time either, so thats probably best
2154 2014-08-27 23:37:13 <cfields> wumpus: see README.usage for the switches
2155 2014-08-27 23:37:20 <nullbyte> (weekend's just when i've got the time)
2156 2014-08-27 23:38:04 <dgenr8> this ccache is great because it lowers the bar to switching branches and actually testing more
2157 2014-08-27 23:38:46 KawalGrover has joined
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2161 2014-08-27 23:48:51 <wumpus> cfields: hah, build all depends+bitcoind on my PC was faster than building just bitcoind on the device :)
2162 2014-08-27 23:48:58 <jcorgan> wumpus: i had assumed you'd been using ccache all along.  it's people like you it was written for.
2163 2014-08-27 23:49:29 <Luke-Jr> I know about ccache, but been too lazy to set it up.. :P
2164 2014-08-27 23:49:41 weilu has joined
2165 2014-08-27 23:49:43 <sipa> it doesn't require any setup
2166 2014-08-27 23:49:45 <wumpus> jcorgan: I'd certainly heard of it, but never bothered to use it for some reason, I think afraid of botching my builds
2167 2014-08-27 23:49:55 <sipa> just installl it; bitcoin autotools detects it and uses it
2168 2014-08-27 23:50:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it does? :o
2169 2014-08-27 23:50:38 <Luke-Jr> aha, so it does
2170 2014-08-27 23:50:42 <Luke-Jr> didn't even realise it :D
2171 2014-08-27 23:51:35 <jcorgan> someday some code archaeologist will find a distinct inflection point in the productivity of the bitcoin core dev team and wonder what happened :)
2172 2014-08-27 23:51:36 <cfields> damn.. i think my relative productivity dropped by half today
2173 2014-08-27 23:51:55 <cfields> i had no idea you guys weren't using it
2174 2014-08-27 23:52:04 Applicat_ has joined
2175 2014-08-27 23:52:08 <gmaxwell> I was using it before you did anything— as said— fedora! :P
2176 2014-08-27 23:52:19 <gmaxwell> actually for a while the changes to support it were breaking it for me, but were fixed at some point.
2177 2014-08-27 23:53:12 <jgarzik> heh
2178 2014-08-27 23:53:19 <jgarzik> ccache + distcc for the ultimate in speed
2179 2014-08-27 23:53:28 <Luke-Jr> distcc definitely requires setup these days
2180 2014-08-27 23:53:35 Application has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2181 2014-08-27 23:53:50 <cfields> i found distcc to be too brittle, sadly
2182 2014-08-27 23:54:02 <gmaxwell> distcc: please wait, hacking hosts on local area network.
2183 2014-08-27 23:54:04 <Luke-Jr> I hacked distcc to make everything deterministic. but it was such a hack.
2184 2014-08-27 23:54:05 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2185 2014-08-27 23:54:26 <Luke-Jr> 99% of the complexity (and why it was a hack) was trying to parse GCC command line arguments..
2186 2014-08-27 23:54:27 <cfields> rather, works fine.. until you change something in one place
2187 2014-08-27 23:54:50 <Luke-Jr> I never had problems with distcc itself
2188 2014-08-27 23:55:01 <Luke-Jr> used it to run Gentoo on my handheld devices (N810, N900) :p
2189 2014-08-27 23:55:11 <Luke-Jr> cross-distcc ftw
2190 2014-08-27 23:55:54 <wumpus> I only have one host with CPU power to speak of so I doubt learning distcc is worthwhile, I mean, using it over 10 ARM boxes sounds like fun but pretty pointless :)
2191 2014-08-27 23:55:55 <sipa> i've been using distcc happily since i saw that our autotools supported it
2192 2014-08-27 23:55:56 <dgenr8> ccache didn't work automatically for me.  had to add /usr/lib/ccache to PATH
2193 2014-08-27 23:57:05 <sipa> wumpus: did you intend to create a branch pull/4737/local-merge in bitcoin/bitcoin?
2194 2014-08-27 23:57:20 DougieBot5000 has joined
2195 2014-08-27 23:57:46 <cfields> hehe, that sounds like a script gone sentient
2196 2014-08-27 23:57:54 <wumpus> sipa: eh, no, let me see
2197 2014-08-27 23:58:46 <Luke-Jr> "Bitcoin Core Maintainer Accidentally Hacks Bitcoin Core Project Repository"
2198 2014-08-27 23:59:16 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2199 2014-08-27 23:59:17 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2200 2014-08-27 23:59:28 <wumpus> and it's gone
2201 2014-08-27 23:59:37 <wumpus> (the branch, not the repository)
2202 2014-08-27 23:59:43 <Luke-Jr> "Bitcoin Core Maintainer Accidentally Hacks Bitcoin Core Project Repository And Destroys Evidence"
2203 2014-08-27 23:59:51 Blackreign has quit ()
2204 2014-08-27 23:59:52 <Luke-Jr> :p
2205 2014-08-27 23:59:57 ak_ has joined