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   2 2014-08-29 00:00:07 * sipa would consider it to write a scenario-replaying-network-interaction-tester-tool to replace the bitcoin comparison tool
   3 2014-08-29 00:00:22 <petertodd> sipa: +1
   4 2014-08-29 00:00:34 <sipa> but if BlueMatt can fix the comparison tool to support headersfirst, that would clearly get priority
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  10 2014-08-29 00:12:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea...I know, sadly relay network came up and I want to move it forward while its still fresh in people's minds
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  53 2014-08-29 01:24:11 * BlueMatt does the block dance
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  56 2014-08-29 01:30:27 <nullbyte> was just thinking about the relay...
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  71 2014-08-29 01:49:02 <BlueMatt> nullbyte: so I started the work
  72 2014-08-29 01:49:18 <BlueMatt> and did the fun part (wrote a client in python which speaks the relay protocol)
  73 2014-08-29 01:49:28 <BlueMatt> but havent touched integrating it elsewhere or speaking the p2p protocol
  74 2014-08-29 01:49:43 <BlueMatt> I'd kinda like to go incorporate it as-is into eliopool, p2pool, etc
  75 2014-08-29 01:49:50 <BlueMatt> and then also have a wrapper that speaks bitcoind p2p
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  79 2014-08-29 01:58:48 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: would you take the time to integrate a relay node client class into eloipool?
  80 2014-08-29 01:59:21 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ie a simple interface that eats and spits byte arrays, just forward txn and blocks
  81 2014-08-29 01:59:50 <BlueMatt> or wizkid057
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  83 2014-08-29 02:00:18 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I'd certainly merge it.. is your code Python3-friendly?
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  86 2014-08-29 02:00:48 <BlueMatt> its python3-required
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  88 2014-08-29 02:01:33 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: any suggestions for where to put hooks to eg relay_node.relay_block(), relay_node.relay_tx() and receive_block?
  89 2014-08-29 02:01:50 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: lol, good luck with p2pool then :P
  90 2014-08-29 02:02:14 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yea...I'll try to remove the dep later
  91 2014-08-29 02:02:18 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I would think you want something post-proposal, and something for the actual block submit
  92 2014-08-29 02:02:23 <BlueMatt> I think its only for OrderedDict
  93 2014-08-29 02:02:58 <Luke-Jr> merklemaker.py:538: self.logger.debug('Updating merkle tree with template from \'%s\'' % (BestMT.source,))
  94 2014-08-29 02:03:12 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  95 2014-08-29 02:03:29 <Luke-Jr> eloipool.py:570: bcnode.submitBlock(payload)
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  98 2014-08-29 02:03:55 <BlueMatt> awesome
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 100 2014-08-29 02:04:37 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ideally, it'd be nice to configure it in config.py
 101 2014-08-29 02:05:16 <Luke-Jr> if you're aiming for a common Python module, maybe wrap it in a try:import rather than putting the code in Eloipool itslef
 102 2014-08-29 02:08:53 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: farrr too much effort for me, that
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 104 2014-08-29 02:09:07 <Luke-Jr> ?
 105 2014-08-29 02:10:18 <Luke-Jr> well, get me something that works and I'll poke at the minor details
 106 2014-08-29 02:11:40 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/RelayNode/blob/master/RelayNetworkClient.py
 107 2014-08-29 02:11:52 <BlueMatt> right now that succeeds in receiving blocks/txn and looping them back to the relay node
 108 2014-08-29 02:12:04 <BlueMatt> needs either python3 or ordereddict from pip
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 110 2014-08-29 02:13:23 <gmaxwell> I don't know if doing this in eloipool makes sense in that any big eloipool user runs multiple ones... and to work efficient the client must have large state shared with the far end?
 111 2014-08-29 02:13:57 <gmaxwell> eloipool should care to recieve unverified blocks...
 112 2014-08-29 02:14:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: other end - broadcasting blocks
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 114 2014-08-29 02:14:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, but the protocol is only really efficient if you're using it for both.
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 117 2014-08-29 02:15:05 <Luke-Jr> I suppose
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 121 2014-08-29 02:15:25 <Luke-Jr> so what you're saying is, we're going to want it using bitcoind directly *anyway*, no point adding it to Eloipool
 122 2014-08-29 02:15:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: my goal is to make it more readily accessible
 123 2014-08-29 02:15:51 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: that being said, note Eloipool *does* have the p2p protocol implemented to some extent
 124 2014-08-29 02:16:24 <Luke-Jr> I don't think I ever got it to work reliably, but part of that may have been because of/before the p2p-protocol-hardfork a few years ago
 125 2014-08-29 02:16:28 <BlueMatt> integrating into p2pool, Eloipool will be essentially an entirely separate thing, but it makes it easier for people to --relay-network-connect NODE
 126 2014-08-29 02:16:39 <gmaxwell> well, the relay client could implement a p2p listener socket eloipool could spam with blocks.
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 128 2014-08-29 02:17:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I'm lazy...easier to call relayNode.relayBlock(binary_array)
 129 2014-08-29 02:18:10 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you're mooting all the advantages if eligius is running 40 relay clients in one data center.
 130 2014-08-29 02:18:22 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hopefully they would only run it on one...
 131 2014-08-29 02:18:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it runs some large number of eloipools.
 132 2014-08-29 02:18:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, and you'd only peer on one
 133 2014-08-29 02:18:44 <Luke-Jr> self.logger.debug('Received block inv over p2p for %s' % (b2a_hex(blkhash[::-1]).decode('ascii'),))
 134 2014-08-29 02:18:45 <Luke-Jr> ;)
 135 2014-08-29 02:18:48 <BlueMatt> I mean they're all gonna get blocks quick, no?
 136 2014-08-29 02:18:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: all of them potentially have blocks to announce.
 137 2014-08-29 02:19:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and announcing them between each other should be damn quick?
 138 2014-08-29 02:19:15 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea but thats silly then, might as well just make it part of the bitcoind.
 139 2014-08-29 02:19:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: they don't announce them between each other currently.
 140 2014-08-29 02:19:49 <gmaxwell> (AFAIK, luke will correct I'm sure0
 141 2014-08-29 02:20:02 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you're correct
 142 2014-08-29 02:20:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: whatever is lower barrier to a poolop, and I think thats always gonna be --relay-pool-peer, not python ./RelayPoolPeer.py
 143 2014-08-29 02:21:23 <gmaxwell> so you're going to get 40 clients in one site then, and pool ops complaining about the memory usage. :P
 144 2014-08-29 02:21:34 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: also, I dont want to implement p2p
 145 2014-08-29 02:21:45 <gmaxwell> so, make a patch to bitcoind?
 146 2014-08-29 02:21:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it doesnt use that much memory, and hopefully no poolop would do that...
 147 2014-08-29 02:21:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: and then go around to poolops to convince them to use it....
 148 2014-08-29 02:22:04 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: Eloipool implements p2p. Copy the code.
 149 2014-08-29 02:22:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: i wouldnt want to see that merged into bitcoind...
 150 2014-08-29 02:22:27 <Luke-Jr> I wouldn't want to see miners running unpatched bitcoind
 151 2014-08-29 02:22:46 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: your guarenteed buffer is what, 2000 txn? so thats a peak usage of 200mbytes.
 152 2014-08-29 02:23:25 <BlueMatt> 1000 txn * 10kb + 20 txn * 250kb
 153 2014-08-29 02:23:38 <BlueMatt> 15mb
 154 2014-08-29 02:23:48 <BlueMatt> + overhead of various maps and such
 155 2014-08-29 02:23:54 <BlueMatt> *2 for outbound + inbound
 156 2014-08-29 02:24:11 <BlueMatt> though outbound in java is just hashes, not txn, in python i havent done that yet
 157 2014-08-29 02:24:16 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: max relable and isStandard txn size is 100kb
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 161 2014-08-29 02:24:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so I should set 250kb to 100kb?
 162 2014-08-29 02:24:51 * Luke-Jr hopes the relay network isn't giving preferential treatment to miners with certain policies over others
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 164 2014-08-29 02:25:21 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I dunno what you're talking about wrt unpatched bitcoind.
 165 2014-08-29 02:25:24 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: it will give preferential treatment to those who are on it, but it does not care which txn you send it, as long as you're sending the txn you're gonna mine its fine
 166 2014-08-29 02:26:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: my point is that miners should already be patching bitcoind, one more patch shouldn't hurt, nor should it be expected every patch should be merged
 167 2014-08-29 02:26:41 <Luke-Jr> in response to BlueMatt's fear of having to get it merged
 168 2014-08-29 02:27:17 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 169 2014-08-29 02:28:39 <gmaxwell> Since its code that wouldn't even run unless you specifically configure it, the only reason I'd have to not just merge it is that it probably should be actively developed for a bit and thats easier if its not lockstep with bitcoin versions.
 170 2014-08-29 02:29:48 <gmaxwell> in any case for p2pool since the p2pool node bitcoin daemon relationship is 1:1, having it in p2pool is basically the same as having it standalone... so I don't see any issue with putting it there.
 171 2014-08-29 02:30:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you're only queueing 20 >10k transactions ... thats going to reduce the hitrate a fair amount.
 172 2014-08-29 02:31:02 <gmaxwell> for the elopool case the architecture is pretty different.
 173 2014-08-29 02:31:40 <gmaxwell> eloipool is also only one of serveral poolservers.
 174 2014-08-29 02:32:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh? I see relatively few >10k txn in recent blocks
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 176 2014-08-29 02:32:39 <gmaxwell> byte-hitrate is what counts for bandwidth reduction, so you need to weigh the results by the bytes sent.
 177 2014-08-29 02:32:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: 0 more often than not
 178 2014-08-29 02:32:53 <BlueMatt> indeed
 179 2014-08-29 02:33:07 <BlueMatt> but thats the reasonf or the limited exception
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 181 2014-08-29 02:33:47 <BlueMatt> if you really want to include a gian, unrelayble, txn, you can
 182 2014-08-29 02:34:25 <gmaxwell> transactions > 10k are perfectly relayable 0_o
 183 2014-08-29 02:35:00 <BlueMatt> oh, that comment was just general
 184 2014-08-29 02:35:14 <BlueMatt> if you really want to mine something large as a miner, the relay network will not punish you
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 186 2014-08-29 02:36:25 * BlueMatt -> dinner
 187 2014-08-29 02:36:45 <gmaxwell> well, it will, so long as you have more than 20 of them or are relaying any transactions you consider valid but aren't making your mining cut. (which is currently how nodes behave)
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 196 2014-08-29 02:45:07 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: odd, there are fewer large transactions than there used to be.
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 229 2014-08-29 03:33:24 <roasbeef> BlueMatt: OrderedDict exists both in Python 2.7 and 3K under the same 'collections' module, your RelayNode implementation in Python should work for both and for p2pool since it requires 2.7
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 399 2014-08-29 08:04:21 <wumpus> cfields: what would be the advantage of all the wrapping-symbols stuff if we can just link against the Qt 4.6 headers?
 400 2014-08-29 08:04:37 <wumpus> cfields: it seems kind of pointless to do all this work, the current solution is working
 401 2014-08-29 08:04:51 <cfields> wumpus: you can't link against headers
 402 2014-08-29 08:04:59 <wumpus> doh I mean compile against headers
 403 2014-08-29 08:05:13 <cfields> because you have to link against something :)
 404 2014-08-29 08:05:18 <wumpus> use 4.8 for that
 405 2014-08-29 08:05:25 <wumpus> it doesn't matter , it's backward compatible
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 407 2014-08-29 08:05:44 <wumpus> in the end you'll reach the same result
 408 2014-08-29 08:05:50 <wumpus> but with lots of extra work
 409 2014-08-29 08:06:01 <cfields> then we're completely at the mercy of whatever's installed on the system, which is the exact opposite intention of the depends
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 411 2014-08-29 08:06:24 <wumpus> well if you need to link against something *build* 4.8, and use the 4.6.3 headers?
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 413 2014-08-29 08:06:28 <wumpus> it could be an easy switch
 414 2014-08-29 08:06:51 <wumpus> ie, if we don't want 4.6.3 compat we can easily switch it off and just build against the 4.8 headers
 415 2014-08-29 08:07:21 <cfields> where do the headers come from?
 416 2014-08-29 08:07:39 <wumpus> from the qt source distribution, see the gitian discriptor for qt linux
 417 2014-08-29 08:08:21 <cfields> wumpus: right, that's the same thing my PR does, but without having to restort to patching things around
 418 2014-08-29 08:08:38 <cfields> wumpus: your patch works because it sets the QT_VERSION to 4.6
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 420 2014-08-29 08:09:34 <wumpus> that's not all, though
 421 2014-08-29 08:09:46 <wumpus> it's not like I didn't try that, to use the 4.8 headers and just change the version definition
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 423 2014-08-29 08:10:50 <wumpus> there is some mess with inlined functions that makes it use symbols not available in 4.6 libraries
 424 2014-08-29 08:12:22 <wumpus> you know what, we should just require 4.8 for 0.10 and be done with this
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 427 2014-08-29 08:13:21 <wumpus> at some point the amount of work to maintain compatibility escalates and one just has to cut the know
 428 2014-08-29 08:13:28 <wumpus> knot*
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 430 2014-08-29 08:15:16 <cfields> i'd be ok with that
 431 2014-08-29 08:15:18 <cfields> but
 432 2014-08-29 08:15:26 <cfields> it's worth giving this a try on 4.6 first
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 434 2014-08-29 08:15:36 <cfields> looking at that config in gitian again, i don't see any reason why this wouldn't work
 435 2014-08-29 08:15:49 <cfields> none of the api's are overwritten in your config
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 437 2014-08-29 08:16:14 <wumpus> ok... if not too much work, that'd be very cool, but if possible I'd like to avoid adding qt symbol wrappers in bitcoind as well
 438 2014-08-29 08:16:41 <cfields> i found 3 things that affect the abi: session management, openssl compile, and static lib external linkage
 439 2014-08-29 08:17:02 <cfields> well i agree with you there. If there aren't any actual users of it, there's no need ot maintain it
 440 2014-08-29 08:17:03 <wumpus> its' bad enough we have to wrap glibc and libc++ for compatibility, but at least that's at a base level, the GUI just isn't worth the same amount of maintenance work
 441 2014-08-29 08:17:40 <cfields> but. I believe all it should cost us for this one is that define -> macro. There's not much overhead there...
 442 2014-08-29 08:17:56 <wumpus> defining and macros are fine
 443 2014-08-29 08:17:57 <cfields> so i suppose it's really a matter of finding out what support we'd be dropping, and how much it matters
 444 2014-08-29 08:18:03 <wumpus> just no c++ symbol magic okay  ? :-)
 445 2014-08-29 08:18:11 <cfields> heh, there's not any :)
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 447 2014-08-29 08:18:44 <wumpus> *phew* ok I'll calm down now
 448 2014-08-29 08:19:24 <cfields> wumpus: this is the "magic" https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/13803a233f2a161497afd55d5e7cff6bf3e1e3c0
 449 2014-08-29 08:19:39 <cfields> don't be scared by the diff size, it's 99% sed work
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 453 2014-08-29 08:21:11 <wumpus> I tried that at some point, it didn't work for me
 454 2014-08-29 08:22:02 <wumpus> but ok, doesn't hurt to give it a try too
 455 2014-08-29 08:23:23 <cfields> wumpus: it won't bother me at all to drop it, i just wanted to put forward a solution
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 457 2014-08-29 08:24:01 <wumpus> cfields: I'm just surprised if you can get this to work, "do not use any >4.6 symbols" seems like the obvious way to be compatible with 4.6, but it didn't work for me
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 459 2014-08-29 08:24:14 <cfields> i'll see if i can throw together some vm's this weekend to test. if it works, we'll have data points. Not to say we actually need to keep the compat, but we'll know where we stand
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 461 2014-08-29 08:24:56 <cfields> wumpus: well it's also sensitive to how you build the other deps. openssl in particular.
 462 2014-08-29 08:25:11 <cfields> qt needed a bit of patching to cope
 463 2014-08-29 08:26:07 <cfields> because we have static qt and qt ends up with it too. You solved it by dropping the symbols with the linker script, but that doesn't solve the runtime resolving
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 465 2014-08-29 08:26:52 <cfields> *static openssl
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 467 2014-08-29 08:27:19 <wumpus> well it did solve the problem and made the executables working well on the old-hat VMs I was testing on
 468 2014-08-29 08:27:47 <wumpus> but if you're redoing all of this I'd say don't bother
 469 2014-08-29 08:28:34 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 470 2014-08-29 08:28:49 <cfields> i swear i'm not just redoing things for the sake of NIH :)
 471 2014-08-29 08:28:58 <cfields> (as much as it may seem)
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 473 2014-08-29 08:29:26 <cfields> I just don't want to introduce a dependency outside of our control, after eliminating all of the others
 474 2014-08-29 08:29:29 <wumpus> too much time has already been spent down this particular rabbit hole, I'm sure there are actual issues blocking the 0.10 release
 475 2014-08-29 08:31:28 <cfields> well i need this built _somehow_ to get the gitian descriptors merged in, that's why i'm giving it attention
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 480 2014-08-29 08:33:48 <wumpus> agreed
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 482 2014-08-29 08:36:14 <wumpus> well, anyhow, if you need any executables tested on old VMs just send them
 483 2014-08-29 08:36:20 <cfields> wumpus: QT_VISIBILITY_AVAILABLE would've been the other major one to take care of
 484 2014-08-29 08:36:40 <cfields> maybe your local install didn't have that defined?
 485 2014-08-29 08:36:46 <wumpus> I don't know
 486 2014-08-29 08:37:43 <cfields> heh. i get the sense that we're equally done with this topic for now :)
 487 2014-08-29 08:37:49 <cfields> zzz time, nnite
 488 2014-08-29 08:38:40 <wumpus> night
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 511 2014-08-29 09:14:01 <stoyvo> Anyone around that knows centos?
 512 2014-08-29 09:16:11 <stoyvo> i keep getting the error "configure error: No working boost sleep implementation found."
 513 2014-08-29 09:16:12 <sturles> stoyvo: Wrong question.  Try "Anyone around who knows the solution to <your exact problem>?"
 514 2014-08-29 09:16:15 <stoyvo> however, it's there.....
 515 2014-08-29 09:16:34 <sturles> That's better.
 516 2014-08-29 09:16:51 <sturles> Did you check configure.log?
 517 2014-08-29 09:16:52 <stoyvo> Sorry... I realized how vage the question was.
 518 2014-08-29 09:17:01 <sturles> The problem can be something else.
 519 2014-08-29 09:17:02 <stoyvo> Yes, one sec.
 520 2014-08-29 09:17:16 <wumpus> does that happen with master?
 521 2014-08-29 09:17:27 <stoyvo> i'm on tag v0.9.2.1
 522 2014-08-29 09:17:42 <wumpus> there have been various changes to the build system to improve boost autodetection
 523 2014-08-29 09:18:00 <wumpus> ok, then you probably have to provide --with-boost-libpath=<directory>
 524 2014-08-29 09:18:23 <stoyvo> hmm, tried that.
 525 2014-08-29 09:18:36 <stoyvo> --with-boost-libdir=/home/bitcoind/deps/lib  (custom location)
 526 2014-08-29 09:18:53 <stoyvo> the default yum install is located in /usr/lb64
 527 2014-08-29 09:19:07 <stoyvo> .  /usr/lib64
 528 2014-08-29 09:19:55 <wumpus> it's a well-known issue anyway, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3003
 529 2014-08-29 09:21:18 <wumpus> maybe try git cherry-pick 2041365
 530 2014-08-29 09:21:55 <wumpus> oh, that's from 2013, that should be in 0.9.2.1...
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 533 2014-08-29 09:23:20 <stoyvo> haha, I read that thread
 534 2014-08-29 09:24:08 <stoyvo> geez....
 535 2014-08-29 09:24:09 <wumpus> you'll need to do some autoconf debugging to find out *why* it doesn't find a boost sleep
 536 2014-08-29 09:24:31 <wumpus> I think we can exclude the library path, but it may still be something with includes
 537 2014-08-29 09:24:36 <wumpus> what does config.log say?
 538 2014-08-29 09:24:52 <stoyvo> I've tried a few things, such as using boost v1.56, setting custom location vs default, etc
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 540 2014-08-29 09:25:06 <stoyvo> one sec, trying master
 541 2014-08-29 09:25:13 <wumpus> boost version shouldn't make a difference, bitcoin is compatible with extrememly old boost versions
 542 2014-08-29 09:25:22 <wumpus> it's just the autodetection that fails
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 544 2014-08-29 09:26:22 <stoyvo> hmm, good point
 545 2014-08-29 09:26:30 <stoyvo> what should --with-boost be pointed to?
 546 2014-08-29 09:26:45 <stoyvo> currently I have the option undeclared as a param
 547 2014-08-29 09:26:59 <stoyvo> eerr, sorry. That param is not declared*
 548 2014-08-29 09:27:02 <wumpus> not sure, but can you pastebin your config.log after getting that error?
 549 2014-08-29 09:27:14 <stoyvo> sure, one sec
 550 2014-08-29 09:27:21 <wumpus> and yes, trying with master is good for reference
 551 2014-08-29 09:27:28 <wumpus> at least then we know if it's fixed there
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 563 2014-08-29 09:32:52 <stoyvo> Sorry, had to map VM to the host
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 567 2014-08-29 09:34:54 <wumpus> IIRC --with-boost just sets a base prefix where boost is installed, so it's equivalent to --with-boost-libpath=$X/lib --with-boost-includepath=$X/include 
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 604 2014-08-29 09:37:59 <moa> which is oldest boost version that has boost-chrono  might be worth asking also
 605 2014-08-29 09:38:37 <wumpus> well the pulltester uses boost 1.4x, and it works with that
 606 2014-08-29 09:39:01 da2ce7 has joined
 607 2014-08-29 09:39:17 <wumpus> I wouldn't worry about boost versions, you do have to make sure all necessary boost libraries (and their development headers) are installed
 608 2014-08-29 09:39:51 <wumpus> so, indeed, if your boost has/needs chrono, make sure it is installed
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 620 2014-08-29 09:47:16 <stoyvo> i haven't left, im reading messages
 621 2014-08-29 09:47:58 <stoyvo> I'm having trouble now getting the kernel headers just so I can install these stupid vm tools so I can grab this file...... Overly complicated for something so silly
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 676 2014-08-29 09:57:00 <yrashk> Hi, guys, hoping somebody can help. I am having a rejected custom transaction. I've checked everything I could think of: signature canonicity, and whether sigs and pubkeys are made from the same *right* addresses, the fee is there, only one OP_RETURN, its value is non-zero (I've done nValue=1 OP_RETURNs successfully before). I must be forgetting something
 677 2014-08-29 09:57:00 <yrashk> really simple and stupid as I wasted over half a day on this already: https://gist.github.com/yrashk/bc0a2548d2d86026497b
 678 2014-08-29 09:57:00 <yrashk> bitcoind returns TX rejected (code -22), Electrum returns {u'message': u'64: non-canonical', u'code': -26}
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 730 2014-08-29 10:09:21 <stoyvo> wumpus, still around?
 731 2014-08-29 10:09:39 <stoyvo> http://pastebin.com/zwxM9fZm
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 738 2014-08-29 10:15:08 <wumpus> /bin/ld: /home/bitcoind/deps/lib/libboost_system.a(error_code.o): relocation R_X86_64_32 against `.rodata.str1.1' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
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 742 2014-08-29 10:15:36 <wumpus> if you are building static boost to be linked against bitcoind, you must compile with -fPIC
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 746 2014-08-29 10:16:09 <wumpus> (or, alternatively, build bitcoind without harding so that it won't use ASLR)
 747 2014-08-29 10:16:20 <wumpus> s/harding/hardening
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 753 2014-08-29 10:17:02 <stoyvo> haha
 754 2014-08-29 10:17:07 <stoyvo> hmmm
 755 2014-08-29 10:17:09 <wumpus> or just use a dynamic boost library
 756 2014-08-29 10:17:18 <stoyvo> boost-devel?
 757 2014-08-29 10:17:27 <wumpus> boost-devel?
 758 2014-08-29 10:17:39 <stoyvo> err, by dnamic, what do you mean?
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 760 2014-08-29 10:17:43 <wumpus> a .so
 761 2014-08-29 10:17:49 <stoyvo> ah, okay
 762 2014-08-29 10:18:06 <wumpus> those are always compiled with -fPIC to make them relocatable
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 764 2014-08-29 10:18:40 <stoyvo> -fPIC is compiled on boost or bitcoin
 765 2014-08-29 10:18:56 <wumpus> both
 766 2014-08-29 10:19:12 <stoyvo> i was able to set it on boost, but bitcoin won't accept it
 767 2014-08-29 10:19:29 <wumpus> well at least you shouldn't get this error anymore
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 772 2014-08-29 10:19:39 <stoyvo> haha it wont compile at all ;)
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 774 2014-08-29 10:20:55 <wumpus> see contrib/gitian-descriptors/boost-linux.yml on how to build a static boost that can be used with bitcoind
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 782 2014-08-29 10:23:29 <stoyvo> thanks wumpus, will play around with this
 783 2014-08-29 10:23:46 <wumpus> in practice, building a shared library and using that is much easier, or just using your OS's boost library and headers instead of building your own, but you probably have a reason for that
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 787 2014-08-29 10:24:28 <stoyvo> only tried to use my own because the packages version of boost wasn't working
 788 2014-08-29 10:24:32 <stoyvo> I assumed it was the issue
 789 2014-08-29 10:25:00 <wumpus> then you're getting into a lot of trouble for nothing
 790 2014-08-29 10:25:30 <stoyvo> okay, going to start from the top again and get rid of everything custom
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 793 2014-08-29 10:27:07 <wumpus> yes, let's figure out why it doesn't work with your os' headers/libs
 794 2014-08-29 10:27:43 <wumpus> if that really doesn't work you can always go back to the hell of building boost yourself
 795 2014-08-29 10:29:34 <stoyvo> haha
 796 2014-08-29 10:29:37 <stoyvo> indeed it was hell
 797 2014-08-29 10:29:49 <stoyvo> this is how i'm building bitcoin
 798 2014-08-29 10:29:59 <stoyvo> LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/bitcoind/deps/lib LIBS='-lssl -lcrypto' CPPFLAGS=-I/home/bitcoind/deps/include LDFLAGS=-L/home/bitcoind/deps/lib SSL_CFLAGS=-I/home/bitcoind/deps/include SSL_LIBS=-L/home/bitcoind/deps/lib CRYPTO_CFLAGS=-I/home/bitcoind/deps/include CRYPTO_LIBS=-L/home/bitcoind/deps/lib ./configure --prefix=/home/bitcoind
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 802 2014-08-29 10:31:51 <stoyvo> ok..... so it worked
 803 2014-08-29 10:31:52 <stoyvo> :D
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 806 2014-08-29 10:32:15 <stoyvo> i'm not sure what the hell I did wrong the firs time, but I spent about 4 hours debugging :D haha
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 809 2014-08-29 10:32:35 <stoyvo> Thank you for your help wumpus! btc address? I would like to tip for your help
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 820 2014-08-29 10:35:48 <wumpus> hah, that's strange
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 904 2014-08-29 10:59:55 <wumpus> ideally the "No working boost sleep implementation found." should be more descriptive, ie mention what libraries failed to be linked
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1245 2014-08-29 13:43:52 <jeremias_> hi, are read-only addresses planned for bitcoin-qt?
1246 2014-08-29 13:45:05 <wumpus> you mean watch-only?
1247 2014-08-29 13:45:11 <wumpus> that's already implemented in master
1248 2014-08-29 13:45:36 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1249 2014-08-29 13:46:16 <wumpus> to use it, you have to use importaddress in the console
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1371 2014-08-29 15:13:36 <Raccoon> Bitcoin's Earliest Adopter, Hal Finney, Died Thursday... Is Cryonically Freezing His Body To See The Future -- http://www.wired.com/2014/08/hal-finney/
1372 2014-08-29 15:13:54 <Raccoon> Just how rich did he get off of bitcoin?  What was his IRC nick?
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1376 2014-08-29 15:17:46 <Luke-Jr> Raccoon: this is -dev
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1383 2014-08-29 15:23:07 <Raccoon> Luke-Jr: Indeed, it quite rightly is.
1384 2014-08-29 15:23:19 <Raccoon> I am asking about a developer of bitcoin who just died yesterday.
1385 2014-08-29 15:23:43 <Apocalyptic> Hal was no developer afaik
1386 2014-08-29 15:23:55 <Raccoon> I assume he might even have frequented this channel or its predecessor
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1388 2014-08-29 15:24:05 <Raccoon> oh.  The article says he was
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1394 2014-08-29 15:26:38 <Raccoon> It does read that he didn't get rich off bitcoin though, alas.  They cashed it in for medical bills long before it skyrocketed
1395 2014-08-29 15:26:45 <wumpus> he was a developer but not a bitcoin developer :) and he was never in this channel IIRC, he had problems with typing way before
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1397 2014-08-29 15:27:15 <Raccoon> >Even Finney’s ALS diagnosis in 2009 didn’t slow his technological experimentation. As paralysis set in, he continued to contribute to bitcoin discussions and write code using software that translated his eye movements into text. He even created software that allowed him to use his eyes to adjust his own mechanized wheelchair’s position.
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1399 2014-08-29 15:27:46 <wumpus> please don't try to argue this
1400 2014-08-29 15:27:57 <Raccoon> it's not an argument.
1401 2014-08-29 15:28:02 <Raccoon> just putting it out there.
1402 2014-08-29 15:28:02 <tholenst> This channel is about bitcoin development. It's not about bitcoin developers.
1403 2014-08-29 15:28:21 <Raccoon> tough crowd.
1404 2014-08-29 15:28:43 <wumpus> this really belongs in #bitcoin
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1409 2014-08-29 15:36:08 <jeremias_> wumpus: ok, so the importaddress command should be in the next release?
1410 2014-08-29 15:36:16 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1411 2014-08-29 15:36:18 <jeremias_> or is it currently already in some release?
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1413 2014-08-29 15:37:56 <sipa> jeremias_: it will be in 0.10
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1416 2014-08-29 15:40:51 <jeremias_> sipa: thanks
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1551 2014-08-29 18:25:23 <cfields> gavinandresen: around? I need to figure out how to get some source files on the core dev server
1552 2014-08-29 18:25:42 <gavinandresen> cfields: yes
1553 2014-08-29 18:26:56 <cfields> gavinandresen: most important is the osx sdk so that we can enable the osx build for travis, but it'd be nice to get the rest of the sources up as well. let me know when you've got some free time to push em up?
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1567 2014-08-29 18:41:29 <DiabloD3> hey gmaxwell
1568 2014-08-29 18:41:32 <DiabloD3> ever heard of http://www.hashersunited.com/
1569 2014-08-29 18:41:33 <DiabloD3> ?
1570 2014-08-29 18:45:24 <cfields> wumpus: ping
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1650 2014-08-29 20:30:15 <jtimon> it's just me or the current master doesn't build with after ./configure --disable-wallet ?
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1653 2014-08-29 20:35:53 <jtimon> ok, I think I found the issue
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1686 2014-08-29 21:28:39 <phantomcircuit> DiabloD3, that looks like it would be a series of sales pitches for scammy altcoins
1687 2014-08-29 21:28:53 <phantomcircuit> which you would be paying to hear
1688 2014-08-29 21:28:58 <phantomcircuit> does nto compute
1689 2014-08-29 21:30:22 <DiabloD3> phantomcircuit: yeah
1690 2014-08-29 21:30:29 <DiabloD3> but the people the guy is claiming are speaking
1691 2014-08-29 21:30:32 <DiabloD3> seems like bs
1692 2014-08-29 21:30:40 <jtimon> #4788
1693 2014-08-29 21:31:26 <DiabloD3> see your pm
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1769 2014-08-29 22:13:02 <jtimon> mhmm, now I'm getting the same error without disabling the wallet...
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1774 2014-08-29 22:13:46 <jtimon> is it possible that the build is broken (due to a missing include) and we haven't find out because we don't make clean very often?
1775 2014-08-29 22:13:55 <jtimon> doesn't make much sense to me
1776 2014-08-29 22:14:09 <jtimon> init.cpp:376:5: error: ‘replace_all’ is not a member of ‘boost’
1777 2014-08-29 22:14:09 <jtimon>      boost::replace_all(strCmd, "%s", hashNewTip.GetHex());
1778 2014-08-29 22:15:51 <Luke-Jr> jtimon: 'make clean' shouldn't make any difference like this
1779 2014-08-29 22:16:07 <Luke-Jr> if it does, the build system is broken
1780 2014-08-29 22:16:08 <jtimon> I know, it doesn't make sense
1781 2014-08-29 22:16:56 <Luke-Jr> cfields: should it really slow things down much to test every --enable-*/--with-* combination? we have ccache, right?
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1785 2014-08-29 22:18:08 <jtimon> yeah, maybe at least for some chosen combination
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1800 2014-08-29 22:19:02 <jtimon> ok, so I think I had to run configure --enable-wallet and not just configure
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1803 2014-08-29 22:19:23 <Guest67248> is there a way to change the move command to essentially do what sendmany does, but move?
1804 2014-08-29 22:19:26 <jtimon> wallet and gui would be good, not sure how many more there are
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1809 2014-08-29 22:19:51 <Luke-Jr> Guest67248: meaning what?
1810 2014-08-29 22:21:02 <Guest67248> what u mean meaning what?
1811 2014-08-29 22:21:14 <jtimon> no, it's not --enable-wallet, I'm doing something else wrong or a clean build gives this error...
1812 2014-08-29 22:21:15 <Luke-Jr> Guest67248: your question does not make sense.
1813 2014-08-29 22:23:17 <Guest67248> im sorry, im not a very technical person -> as far as i get it the move command rearranges balance between accounts of a single wallet without using the blockchain or transacions, however it's only 1 to 1; can it be changed to work as sendmany and be in the 1 to X format?
1814 2014-08-29 22:23:22 <Guest67248> i hope that's a bit clearer
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1822 2014-08-29 22:26:59 <Luke-Jr> Guest67248: in theory, perhaps; but note that the account system is currently planned to be removed entirely in 0.10
1823 2014-08-29 22:27:35 <Guest67248> where i can read more about that future change?
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1825 2014-08-29 22:29:17 <Luke-Jr> 0.9 release notes I think
1826 2014-08-29 22:29:47 <jtimon> that's goog news
1827 2014-08-29 22:30:01 <jtimon> can somebody reproduce this ? make clean, ./configure --disable-wallet, make check -j2, make clean, ./configure, make check -j2
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1830 2014-08-29 22:33:16 <Guest67248> Luke-Jr, i cannot find anything about 0.10 in the 0.9  release notes and it doesnt really sound like i should
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1835 2014-08-29 22:39:37 <jtimon> Guest67248 the removal of the accounting feature has been discussed several times here and the mailing list
1836 2014-08-29 22:39:37 <Luke-Jr> Guest67248: anyway, you have to backup the wallet every time you use it, and there's no simple way to automate it
1837 2014-08-29 22:39:42 <Luke-Jr> so it's basically not considered safe
1838 2014-08-29 22:39:56 <Luke-Jr> it also conflicts with the labels feature somewhat
1839 2014-08-29 22:40:20 <Luke-Jr> so maybe it will get reintroduced eventually - but probably incompatible (to be compatible with labels) and after automatic backups
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1841 2014-08-29 22:41:15 <jtimon> an amateur exchange ran into troubles by using freicoin's unspecified behaviour version
1842 2014-08-29 22:41:43 <jtimon> if you're managing accounts you want to do it at a higher level
1843 2014-08-29 22:45:07 <jtimon> probably custom software, like your exchange's code
1844 2014-08-29 22:45:49 <Luke-Jr> you shouldn't be using bitcoind for an exchange in the first place
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1846 2014-08-29 22:47:12 <jtimon> of course, it's just one of the few examples that come to mind of why you would ever want to use this feature
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1848 2014-08-29 22:48:30 <jtimon> if I was maintaining the accounts of some family members, I think I would prefer to use paper over bitcoind's accounting feature
1849 2014-08-29 22:49:36 <jtimon> so in all cases I would do it myself one way or another instead of relying on a high traffic repository
1850 2014-08-29 22:50:22 <Guest67248> i use bitcoind to move balances between accounts but it's quite inconvenient to make rpc for each individual moves when at times there are 15+ moves to be queued
1851 2014-08-29 22:50:45 <jtimon> but what do you use the accounts for?
1852 2014-08-29 22:50:49 <Guest67248> after the change you're talking to what options do i have to maintain such functionality within or outside the bitcoin core software
1853 2014-08-29 22:50:59 <Guest67248> for say, different users
1854 2014-08-29 22:51:19 <sipa> have higher level software that knows which addresses are to credit which users
1855 2014-08-29 22:51:27 <sipa> let bitcoind manage the wallet as a whole
1856 2014-08-29 22:51:44 <sipa> let the software on top manage which user owns which part of it
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1858 2014-08-29 22:51:56 <Guest67248> but then wouldnt that mean that i have to post transactions to the network?
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1860 2014-08-29 22:52:06 <sipa> you use bitcoind for that
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1862 2014-08-29 22:52:32 <Guest67248> yeah but that implies using sendfrom or move command
1863 2014-08-29 22:52:32 <sipa> to do a 'move' you just decrease the balance of one user and increase anothet
1864 2014-08-29 22:52:37 <jtimon> you don't even have to have a user -> outputs dictionary, a user -> balance table is enough
1865 2014-08-29 22:52:39 <sipa> bitcoin does not know or care
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1868 2014-08-29 22:53:10 <Guest67248> the reasoning behind using move and having multiple accounts is to avoid paying tx for each transaction
1869 2014-08-29 22:53:32 <sipa> you don't get it
1870 2014-08-29 22:53:53 <Guest67248> hmm, that's quite possible
1871 2014-08-29 22:53:56 <sipa> movement of balance between users has nothing to do with the bitcoin network
1872 2014-08-29 22:53:58 <jtimon> I think he wants to use the feature to implement some form of coin control
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1874 2014-08-29 22:54:18 <Guest67248> what jtimon said
1875 2014-08-29 22:54:42 <Guest67248> those users care about the balance only within their account
1876 2014-08-29 22:54:44 <Guest67248> in that wallet
1877 2014-08-29 22:54:46 <jtimon> so that's part of the wallet, something we also want to separate from bitcoind
1878 2014-08-29 22:54:57 <sipa> Guest67248: the account feature does not do that at all today
1879 2014-08-29 22:55:02 <Guest67248> moving assets out of those accounts is ofc done trhough the network with sendfrom or sendmany
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1881 2014-08-29 22:55:13 <sipa> all it does is keep track the balance of different accounts
1882 2014-08-29 22:55:22 <sipa> the coins are always shared among all sers
1883 2014-08-29 22:55:25 <sipa> *users
1884 2014-08-29 22:55:31 <Guest67248> yes
1885 2014-08-29 22:55:47 <Guest67248> my question is how do i manage multiple moves
1886 2014-08-29 22:55:50 <Guest67248> with 1 rpc
1887 2014-08-29 22:55:55 <sipa> you don't
1888 2014-08-29 22:56:10 <jtimon> and the answer is you shouldn't be using this deprecated feature
1889 2014-08-29 22:56:29 <sipa> it's not deprecated yet
1890 2014-08-29 22:56:31 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1891 2014-08-29 22:56:36 <sipa> so i guess we will deprecate it in 0.10
1892 2014-08-29 22:56:41 <Guest67248> i get it, is there a way to substitute it ?
1893 2014-08-29 22:56:43 <sipa> and remove it in 0.11 maybe
1894 2014-08-29 22:56:44 <sipa> yes
1895 2014-08-29 22:56:47 <sipa> do it yourself
1896 2014-08-29 22:56:56 <sipa> let bitcoind manage the coins
1897 2014-08-29 22:56:59 <Guest67248> you mean write the method function or whaterver
1898 2014-08-29 22:57:00 <Guest67248> ?
1899 2014-08-29 22:57:09 <jtimon> s/deprecated/to-be-deprecated
1900 2014-08-29 22:57:09 <sipa> just in whatever software you use
1901 2014-08-29 22:57:40 <sipa> tue problem is that using bitcoind's account feature pretty much means you need a backup after every transaction
1902 2014-08-29 22:57:46 <sipa> or you'd lose balance information
1903 2014-08-29 22:57:57 <sipa> that's just not good practice
1904 2014-08-29 22:58:04 <Guest67248> thats quite inconvenient yes
1905 2014-08-29 22:58:05 <sipa> you need to handle this at a higher level
1906 2014-08-29 22:58:12 <Guest67248> but i've come to deal with it quite easy
1907 2014-08-29 22:58:17 <jtimon> yep, python_accounts = {'user1': 10, 'user2': 2}
1908 2014-08-29 22:58:23 <lechuga_> depends on your use case
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1910 2014-08-29 23:00:12 <lechuga_> i wonder if anything besides the bultin wallet has implemented CWalletInterface
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1912 2014-08-29 23:00:16 <jtimon> but there's no use case in which you want to do it using this feature, that's why it's being removed
1913 2014-08-29 23:00:24 <sipa> lechuga_: no
1914 2014-08-29 23:00:28 <lechuga_> builtin*
1915 2014-08-29 23:00:31 <Guest67248> i dont get how to deal with it in a synchronous manner
1916 2014-08-29 23:00:40 <lechuga_> u know for certain no fork has done something clever? :)
1917 2014-08-29 23:00:40 <Guest67248> that wont be slow
1918 2014-08-29 23:00:44 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the worst part is you have to backup after every transaction, whether it's paying to you or you're paying to someone else
1919 2014-08-29 23:00:49 <sipa> yup
1920 2014-08-29 23:00:52 <phantomcircuit> which means you need an entirely automated backup system
1921 2014-08-29 23:01:13 <lechuga_> i was always tempted to write a postgres impl of cwalletinterface
1922 2014-08-29 23:01:43 <lechuga_> but ultimately opted to not use bitcoind at all
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1926 2014-08-29 23:02:42 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, it's generally advisable to use bitcoind for creating/receiving transactions
1927 2014-08-29 23:02:54 <Guest67248> that's what i've been told too
1928 2014-08-29 23:02:59 <lechuga_> yup but im not dealing with a general case
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1930 2014-08-29 23:03:53 <Guest67248> can anyone give me a brief example of dealing with multiple user balances on a higher level
1931 2014-08-29 23:04:06 <lechuga_> its a basic accounting abstraction
1932 2014-08-29 23:04:08 <Guest67248> cuz i cant seem get through the point
1933 2014-08-29 23:04:10 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, what case are you dealing with?
1934 2014-08-29 23:04:11 <lechuga_> its not relevant to bitcoin protocol at all
1935 2014-08-29 23:04:17 <sipa> you'll need something that hooks into -walletnotify
1936 2014-08-29 23:04:24 <sipa> that queries transactions
1937 2014-08-29 23:04:42 <sipa> using listsinceblock perhaps to get updated lists of transactions since the previous information
1938 2014-08-29 23:04:57 <sipa> then credits accounts when receives to oarticular addresses happen
1939 2014-08-29 23:05:07 <lechuga_> phantomcircuit: very large scale
1940 2014-08-29 23:05:16 <sipa> en debiting accounts happens whenever a particular user sends out transactions
1941 2014-08-29 23:05:27 Guest67224 is now known as pigeons
1942 2014-08-29 23:05:46 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, i think you'll find that bitcoind is actually suitable for very large scale wallets now
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1945 2014-08-29 23:06:10 <phantomcircuit> just be sure that you have an encrypted wallet to get the best performance
1946 2014-08-29 23:06:11 <lechuga_> in some ways it is but what if i have millions of addresses
1947 2014-08-29 23:06:20 <Guest67248> but what you're saying is posting transactions through the network
1948 2014-08-29 23:06:24 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, if you have millions of addresses... you'll be fine
1949 2014-08-29 23:06:27 <sipa> Guest67248: ... no
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1951 2014-08-29 23:06:34 akstunt600 has joined
1952 2014-08-29 23:06:35 <Guest67248> then i dont get it
1953 2014-08-29 23:06:35 <phantomcircuit> i actually have a number of wallets with millions of addresses
1954 2014-08-29 23:06:39 <Guest67248> im sorry
1955 2014-08-29 23:06:50 <sipa> if you need to move money from one user to another, you decrease one users account and increase another
1956 2014-08-29 23:06:58 <sipa> you don't touch bitcoind at all for that
1957 2014-08-29 23:07:01 <phantomcircuit> the performance issues with bitcoin core's wallet are all related to having too many transactions
1958 2014-08-29 23:08:05 <phantomcircuit> all of those issues can be fixed, however they requiring adding caching features which means hooks which is difficult to implement 100% correctly 100% of the time
1959 2014-08-29 23:08:08 <jtimon> so when people makes deposits, you know in advance to which address they're depositing, you credit that to the user that you gave the address
1960 2014-08-29 23:08:17 <phantomcircuit> notice that warning applies to all other wallet implementations as well
1961 2014-08-29 23:08:17 <lechuga_> you routinely do coin selection over a million addresses?
1962 2014-08-29 23:08:20 <jtimon> and you owe him that quantity
1963 2014-08-29 23:08:38 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, coin selection runs over the transactions, not addresses
1964 2014-08-29 23:08:52 <sipa> over transaction outputs, even
1965 2014-08-29 23:09:16 <Guest67248> i'll copy what you guys have written and look over it tomorrow, rather make a more educated person do so
1966 2014-08-29 23:09:22 <Guest67248> thank you for your time and help, really
1967 2014-08-29 23:09:27 saracen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1968 2014-08-29 23:09:30 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i seem to remember that it searches the entire map of transactions looking for unspent outputs
1969 2014-08-29 23:09:35 KawalGrover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1970 2014-08-29 23:09:39 <jtimon> when someone wants to withdraw, you just validate that sending_amount + fees <= balances['current_user'].amount
1971 2014-08-29 23:09:51 <lechuga_> well in any case that wont scale well
1972 2014-08-29 23:09:55 <sipa> phantomcircuit: true
1973 2014-08-29 23:10:21 <jtimon> in your scale you should be thinking about cold funds and multisig
1974 2014-08-29 23:10:30 Gyps has quit (Quit: Gyps)
1975 2014-08-29 23:10:44 <lechuga_> then u get to a point where it's like 'ok i can build something that sits in front of bitcoind but then i have to handle reorgs too'
1976 2014-08-29 23:10:57 <lechuga_> and once you're handling reorgs
1977 2014-08-29 23:11:00 <lechuga_> well fuck it
1978 2014-08-29 23:11:04 <jtimon> in no way you're going to use bitcoind's accounting feature to handdle millions of user's balances
1979 2014-08-29 23:11:04 <lechuga_> lets implement the protocol
1980 2014-08-29 23:11:21 saracen has joined
1981 2014-08-29 23:11:39 <jtimon> no, bitcoin hadles reorgs, you don't
1982 2014-08-29 23:12:04 <lechuga_> how would u let bitcoin handle reorgs for u if ur managing ur own external wallet
1983 2014-08-29 23:12:11 <lechuga_> bitcoind*
1984 2014-08-29 23:12:12 <jtimon> you just wait 10 blocks for deposits and feel secured by the proof of work
1985 2014-08-29 23:12:20 Malakai33 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1986 2014-08-29 23:12:20 <lechuga_> ok thats a fail
1987 2014-08-29 23:12:23 <lechuga_> for my use case
1988 2014-08-29 23:12:40 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, modifying bitcoin core's wallet to build a cache of unspent outputs safely would be fairly easy to do
1989 2014-08-29 23:12:53 <phantomcircuit> and is actually probably the biggest performance improvement available
1990 2014-08-29 23:13:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, thoughts?
1991 2014-08-29 23:13:03 <lechuga_> dont really want to maintain a fork
1992 2014-08-29 23:13:18 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, im talking about a change that would be acceptable upstream
1993 2014-08-29 23:13:19 <lechuga_> and im mor eof the opinion bitcoind should not be the answer to everything
1994 2014-08-29 23:13:25 <lechuga_> its a reference implementation by definition
1995 2014-08-29 23:13:29 <lechuga_> ic
1996 2014-08-29 23:13:54 altoz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1997 2014-08-29 23:14:27 <jtimon> exactly, other things like specialized wallets can live in other codebases
1998 2014-08-29 23:15:42 <jtimon> as said, I wish the whole wallet was completely separated by 0.10 instead of just removing this userless feature
1999 2014-08-29 23:16:00 <jtimon> but that will take more work
2000 2014-08-29 23:16:12 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2001 2014-08-29 23:16:21 saracen has joined
2002 2014-08-29 23:16:37 <lechuga_> but even if u separate the two saying 'allow bitcoind to handle the blockchain and creating txs' isnt a sufficient answer to all wallet software
2003 2014-08-29 23:17:09 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2004 2014-08-29 23:17:22 <jtimon> there's currently many competing wallets and that's good, bitcoin-qt (the wallet) must be separated from bitcoind (the core)
2005 2014-08-29 23:17:46 <lechuga_> i was more addressing phantomcircuit there but nod
2006 2014-08-29 23:18:38 <jtimon> and both projects will benefit from being separated
2007 2014-08-29 23:19:12 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, bitcoin core is probably (i haven't checked extensively lately) the most paranoid wallet available
2008 2014-08-29 23:19:14 <jtimon> bitcoind development can be too conservative for a wallet
2009 2014-08-29 23:19:16 <phantomcircuit> this is both good and bad
2010 2014-08-29 23:20:20 DougieBot5000 has joined
2011 2014-08-29 23:20:45 <lechuga_> it needs to be conservative to serve as the reference to every1
2012 2014-08-29 23:21:08 <lechuga_> it's a living spec
2013 2014-08-29 23:21:16 <lechuga_> imo
2014 2014-08-29 23:21:23 Guest67248 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2015 2014-08-29 23:21:54 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, have you actually tried to do coinselection with millions of transactions recently
2016 2014-08-29 23:22:09 <lechuga_> not recently
2017 2014-08-29 23:22:23 neozaru has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018 2014-08-29 23:24:14 <phantomcircuit> afaict this code is basically O(n) for n=mapWallet.size()
2019 2014-08-29 23:24:33 <phantomcircuit> each iteration should be extremely fast
2020 2014-08-29 23:25:08 kristofferR has quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021 2014-08-29 23:27:57 <jtimon> in my opinion bitcoind should be a walletless reference full node, and inside, we need to isolate a lib of consensus critical parts that can be compiled as minamal standalones  to be consumed by other implementations of the protocol, like matt's #4692
2022 2014-08-29 23:28:18 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, everybody is in agreement on that
2023 2014-08-29 23:28:24 <phantomcircuit> but it's a substantial amount of effort
2024 2014-08-29 23:28:33 <jtimon> I see
2025 2014-08-29 23:28:49 <jtimon> yeah, it's something you need to do incrementally
2026 2014-08-29 23:28:51 <phantomcircuit> everybody has been in agreement on that for at least 2 years :P
2027 2014-08-29 23:29:08 justanotheruser has joined
2028 2014-08-29 23:29:15 <jtimon> there's simply no other way without halting other type of development
2029 2014-08-29 23:29:37 <gmaxwell> jtimon: I don't agree. As a software arch thing, sure, it should be factored out. But from a package perspective— it should provide a complete reference implementation of the Bitcoin system.
2030 2014-08-29 23:30:09 <kanzure> packages can refer to other packages in most distros
2031 2014-08-29 23:30:18 <jtimon> well, you will always maintain a minimal wallet an a minimal miner for testing
2032 2014-08-29 23:30:32 <jtimon> s/an/and
2033 2014-08-29 23:30:55 <gmaxwell> Excluding the wallet functionality would further enshrine some of the very poor decisions made in many of the alternative wallets, it would make the system partially untestable, and it would further drive the current trend where users are abandoning actually participating in the bitcoin network and instead depending on centeralized services.
2034 2014-08-29 23:31:33 <kanzure> gmaxwell, what does an endgame look like where the number of bitcoin nodes drops to 100 and then 10 or less?
2035 2014-08-29 23:31:51 <jtimon> but bitcoin-qt can still exist and maintain its good properties
2036 2014-08-29 23:32:18 <gmaxwell> kanzure: in such a situation the bitcoin system is completely worthless and uninteresting to me, so I don't even care to speculate about the minutia around some particular failure modes.
2037 2014-08-29 23:32:46 <kanzure> what is the minimum node count you're willing to bother speculating about
2038 2014-08-29 23:33:28 RAM518 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2039 2014-08-29 23:33:28 <jtimon> it's not only number of nodes, you can run 1000 nodes from the same place
2040 2014-08-29 23:33:42 <phantomcircuit> actually it doesn't seem like creating a utxo set for the wallet would be a substantial improvement
2041 2014-08-29 23:33:48 <phantomcircuit> i'll benchmark it though
2042 2014-08-29 23:35:34 <lechuga_> tree fitty
2043 2014-08-29 23:35:39 <lechuga_> re: #
2044 2014-08-29 23:35:42 saracen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2045 2014-08-29 23:35:45 <jtimon> what do you mean by having and utxo set for the wallet?
2046 2014-08-29 23:35:53 <gmaxwell> kanzure: the criteria thats interesting is that nodes must be so widespread among people of all kinds that the rules of the system are actually effective and aren't just easily overridden by 'well meaning' economic tweaking or political-fairness. I'm not sure a numbers perspective makes a lot of sense, character matters more.
2047 2014-08-29 23:36:38 <lechuga_> jtimon: i think he means if u separate the wallet how does it now get a view of the utxo set
2048 2014-08-29 23:36:48 <lechuga_> for coin selection
2049 2014-08-29 23:37:41 <jtimon> there's of course many options
2050 2014-08-29 23:39:34 <jtimon> api-like solutions like the rest interface or rpc would probably mean maintaining additional utxo indexes (I know get what phantomcircuit means) that people like sipa dislike
2051 2014-08-29 23:39:36 <lechuga_> i dont think those options are completely obvious
2052 2014-08-29 23:39:55 <jtimon> I guess the lowest level approach is just share the database
2053 2014-08-29 23:39:58 <gmaxwell> (but at 10 or 100 or whatever character can't be good, you can't even cover all the countries at that level)
2054 2014-08-29 23:40:21 <jtimon> ie maintaining those additional indexes to avoid rescans
2055 2014-08-29 23:41:05 <jtimon> but I like one PR that turns bitcoind into a zmq publisher, the wallet could subscribe to that
2056 2014-08-29 23:41:24 <jtimon> I'm not sure if it notifies reorgs, let me look for it
2057 2014-08-29 23:41:26 <lechuga_> and the msgs would be updates to the utxo set
2058 2014-08-29 23:41:29 <lechuga_> ?
2059 2014-08-29 23:41:32 <lechuga_> + output
2060 2014-08-29 23:41:35 saracen has joined
2061 2014-08-29 23:41:36 <lechuga_> oops reorg, - output
2062 2014-08-29 23:41:39 <lechuga_> etc
2063 2014-08-29 23:41:59 <jtimon> #4594
2064 2014-08-29 23:42:18 <jtimon> to be really useful it needs to notify reorgs
2065 2014-08-29 23:42:21 <lechuga_> u would still have to know what ur state is when u go offline and comeback
2066 2014-08-29 23:42:21 kristofferR has joined
2067 2014-08-29 23:42:30 <lechuga_> and asume ur zmq gets blown away
2068 2014-08-29 23:42:43 <lechuga_> it's not trivial in the least imo
2069 2014-08-29 23:43:19 <jtimon> good point I wasn't considering a setup where you didn't turned on/off the wallet and the deamon at the same time
2070 2014-08-29 23:43:47 <jtimon> but that should be enough for the wallet
2071 2014-08-29 23:44:12 <jtimon> run a bitcoind process in parallel all the time
2072 2014-08-29 23:44:57 psgs is now known as away!~psgs@2001:41d0:1:68a3::39|psgs
2073 2014-08-29 23:45:14 <jtimon> still nasty recovery when bitcoin-qt goes down and bitcoind doesn't I guess
2074 2014-08-29 23:46:41 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, zeromq is not a reliable delivery mechanism
2075 2014-08-29 23:46:51 <gmaxwell> jtimon: the wallet can speak the p2p protocol, there is no particular need to use zmq.
2076 2014-08-29 23:46:57 <jtimon> in the same host, really?
2077 2014-08-29 23:47:16 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, yes
2078 2014-08-29 23:47:25 <sipa> TCP works pretty well on localhost
2079 2014-08-29 23:47:41 <jtimon> zmq has ipc
2080 2014-08-29 23:47:44 <sipa> zmq is certainly more efficient for some use cases, but using P2P is nice because it means no extra code
2081 2014-08-29 23:47:47 <lechuga_> if the wallet speaks the protocol it can make a lot of trust assumptions but it would still have to handle reorgs which overlaps with bitcoind's role fairly heavily doesnt it
2082 2014-08-29 23:47:52 <gmaxwell> We already have a neutral, multi-implementation, tested, feature complete, protocol for talking to thin-clients. Plus it supports the model where the server is only semi trusted.
2083 2014-08-29 23:47:58 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, zmq is not a reliable delivery mechanism even using the inproc transport
2084 2014-08-29 23:48:09 <jtimon> I didn't know that
2085 2014-08-29 23:48:19 <phantomcircuit> jtimon, see high water mark code
2086 2014-08-29 23:48:23 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: a wallet always has to handle reorgs in any case.
2087 2014-08-29 23:48:29 <gmaxwell> SPV wallets work fine.
2088 2014-08-29 23:48:43 <lechuga_> works fine if the addresses u care about fit in a filter
2089 2014-08-29 23:48:53 <jtimon> but that would mean implementing spv mode in bitcoind  before separating the wallet
2090 2014-08-29 23:49:03 MolokoDeck has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2091 2014-08-29 23:49:18 <sipa> i want to separate the wallet as a process
2092 2014-08-29 23:49:33 <sipa> as a codebase, it will likely be something that still shares some core code
2093 2014-08-29 23:49:35 <lechuga_> u could design a wallet that is dumb wrt reorgs
2094 2014-08-29 23:49:43 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, if you're communicating with a local trusted node, you can simply not set a filter
2095 2014-08-29 23:49:51 nowan_ has joined
2096 2014-08-29 23:49:53 <phantomcircuit> bandwidth on localhost is free(ish)
2097 2014-08-29 23:50:03 <sipa> exactly
2098 2014-08-29 23:50:05 mpm_ has joined
2099 2014-08-29 23:50:32 <gmaxwell> jtimon: sure, headers first is also much of the work of that.
2100 2014-08-29 23:50:35 <phantomcircuit> that is actually pretty close to how i use bitcoind today
2101 2014-08-29 23:50:41 <phantomcircuit> network node <-> wallet node
2102 2014-08-29 23:50:44 <jtimon> then I defintely think zmq/nanomsg would be the simplest option, but if it's not reliable...
2103 2014-08-29 23:50:47 <phantomcircuit> firewall wallet node
2104 2014-08-29 23:50:54 nowan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2105 2014-08-29 23:50:58 <sipa> jtimon: how is new code more simple than existing code?
2106 2014-08-29 23:51:18 <sipa> even if we'd use zmq, we'd still need some SPV-like light client code to use it
2107 2014-08-29 23:51:28 <sipa> while for P2P, we almost have that already
2108 2014-08-29 23:51:34 <jtimon> oh, sorry, the two nodes communicate via the p2p protocol directly
2109 2014-08-29 23:52:14 <sipa> then where does zmq fit in?
2110 2014-08-29 23:52:29 <jtimon> nowhere, sorry, you explained this to me before
2111 2014-08-29 23:52:41 weilu has joined
2112 2014-08-29 23:53:01 <jtimon> I mean, for some other use cases, but not for bitcoind/bitcoin-qt
2113 2014-08-29 23:53:10 <lechuga_> has a design been considered where there is maybe a stream of utxo updates from node to wallet
2114 2014-08-29 23:53:15 <lechuga_> that the wallet blindly applies
2115 2014-08-29 23:53:25 <lechuga_> w/o care about if the updates are due to reorg or what
2116 2014-08-29 23:53:59 MolokoDeck has joined
2117 2014-08-29 23:54:04 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: I think you're now adding complexity to something that is very simple for no reason at all.
2118 2014-08-29 23:54:07 <jtimon> mhmm, instead of maintaining an utxo index...
2119 2014-08-29 23:54:12 <gmaxwell> in a SPV wallet, reorgs are trivial to handle.
2120 2014-08-29 23:54:20 <gmaxwell> They have no utxo index or anything of the sort.
2121 2014-08-29 23:54:27 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2122 2014-08-29 23:54:27 <gmaxwell> (well trivial relative to a full node)
2123 2014-08-29 23:55:02 <jtimon> yep, the p2p protocol seems the simplest path and it doesn't require bitcoin-qt to implement spv mode right now
2124 2014-08-29 23:55:07 Neozonz has joined
2125 2014-08-29 23:55:34 <lechuga_> it just feels like if the wallet is handling reorgs it's functionality is overlapping a bit too much with the node
2126 2014-08-29 23:55:38 <lechuga_> to me anyway
2127 2014-08-29 23:55:41 <lechuga_> its*
2128 2014-08-29 23:56:02 ionstorm has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2129 2014-08-29 23:56:13 <lechuga_> then i have to have matt's tests running against my wallet now too
2130 2014-08-29 23:56:27 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure what you think reorg handling involves. In a SPV client its pretty trivial.
2131 2014-08-29 23:56:28 <sipa> matt's test don't do anything wallet related...
2132 2014-08-29 23:56:31 saracen has joined
2133 2014-08-29 23:56:38 <lechuga_> they test reorgs
2134 2014-08-29 23:56:43 mpm_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2135 2014-08-29 23:56:43 <jtimon> yeah, there will be some overlap at first, maybe make bitcoind a git subrepository of bitcoin-qt?
2136 2014-08-29 23:57:08 <sipa> lechuga_: they test whether consensus works; spv has hardly any consensus code
2137 2014-08-29 23:57:23 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2138 2014-08-29 23:57:25 <sipa> so yes, ok, you need to handle reorgs, but there are already several codebases that do that
2139 2014-08-29 23:57:32 <gmaxwell> how about folks go do some coding before debating scm layouts for code that doesn't exist.
2140 2014-08-29 23:57:48 <sipa> jtimon: i think it'll grow organically
2141 2014-08-29 23:57:59 <sipa> we've been moving code to new objects and libraries for a while
2142 2014-08-29 23:58:03 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2143 2014-08-29 23:59:18 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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