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 231 2014-09-02 06:15:32 <dcousens> why is the timestamp in the block header only 32 bit?
 232 2014-09-02 06:16:33 <justanot1eruser> dcousens: because bitcoin thinks time will end before then /s
 233 2014-09-02 06:18:47 <sipa> dcousens: ask satoshi
 234 2014-09-02 06:19:01 <sipa> dcousens: on the other hand, around 20 bits would probably have sufficed
 235 2014-09-02 06:19:40 <sipa> (if the timestamp seems less than the median of the past 11 blocks, assume it has wrapped around)
 236 2014-09-02 06:19:47 <justanot1eruser> dcousens: one day time will start over at 0x0000 and I don't see why there would be a problem. It's not as if the difficulty will be effected by that
 237 2014-09-02 06:20:10 <dcousens> why not just... avoid the complication and use 64 bits?
 238 2014-09-02 06:20:23 <justanot1eruser> dcousens: why use extra data that isn't needed?
 239 2014-09-02 06:20:49 <sipa> dcousens: that would have been a very reasonable suggestion when bitcoin was being designed
 240 2014-09-02 06:20:55 <dcousens> sipa: haha
 241 2014-09-02 06:21:40 <justanot1eruser> I suppose it would be nice for nlocktime to work for times greater than 62 years
 242 2014-09-02 06:21:46 <justanot1eruser> for.. something
 243 2014-09-02 06:21:52 <justanot1eruser> inheritance?
 244 2014-09-02 06:22:07 <justanot1eruser> retirement fund for your great grand children?
 245 2014-09-02 06:22:37 <dcousens> sipa: and I'm assuming updating the block header version increase is a pain because of the delay in clients upgrading?
 246 2014-09-02 06:22:51 <sipa> dcousens: heh, it would be the worst possible change
 247 2014-09-02 06:23:01 <sipa> dcousens: every node, miner and wallet has to be changed...
 248 2014-09-02 06:23:04 <justanot1eruser> dcousens: it would probably be better to record the timestamp in the coinbase
 249 2014-09-02 06:23:46 <sipa> dcousens: we consider changes that just require full nodes to be upgraded already nontrivial
 250 2014-09-02 06:24:14 <justanot1eruser> sipa: you don't think any timing attacks would be possible with a 20 bit timestamp?
 251 2014-09-02 06:24:21 <sipa> such as?
 252 2014-09-02 06:24:22 <dcousens> sipa: well, on another note, this questions probably simpler, but why is the UTC timestamp allowed to be < than the previous (provided its greater than a 11 block median iirc)?
 253 2014-09-02 06:24:27 <dcousens> sipa: also, how would a 20bit timestamp work?
 254 2014-09-02 06:24:30 <justanot1eruser> I suppose the likelyhood of an 11 day block is very low
 255 2014-09-02 06:24:46 <justanot1eruser> sipa: something I haven't thought of.
 256 2014-09-02 06:24:59 <sipa> dcousens: because clocks are not perfectly synchronized across the globe (though the allowed rewind is probably way overkill)
 257 2014-09-02 06:25:16 <justanot1eruser> seems like there may be some problems with making the timestamp 11 days and the diff adjustment 14 days
 258 2014-09-02 06:25:44 <dcousens> sipa: right, but surely you could just reject blocks too far in the future?
 259 2014-09-02 06:25:49 <sipa> dcousens: and we do
 260 2014-09-02 06:26:03 erasmospunk has joined
 261 2014-09-02 06:26:04 <sipa> (blocks can be up to 2 hours in the future)
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 263 2014-09-02 06:27:02 <dcousens> sipa: fair enough
 264 2014-09-02 06:27:28 <dcousens> sipa: so how would the 20 bit timestamp work btw?
 265 2014-09-02 06:28:30 <sipa> dcousens: just put the lowest 20 bits of the timestamp in the block; internally, you know for each block the full (64 bit) timestamp; to compute the full timestamp for an incoming block, look at the full timestamp median of the past 11 blocks, and if the 20 bits are lower than the 20 lowest bits of that median, assume it has wrapped around
 266 2014-09-02 06:28:45 <sipa> justanot1eruser: would work fine, i think
 267 2014-09-02 06:29:22 <justanot1eruser> sipa: a miner with 51% may be able to make a ton of blocks at times 1, 2, 3, 4... when in reality they are a few hours to days in the future, then warp back again and continue their sequence
 268 2014-09-02 06:29:32 <justanot1eruser> strange terminology I'm using to describe that
 269 2014-09-02 06:30:07 <sipa> every block has a single, well-defined, and immutable 64-bit timestamp
 270 2014-09-02 06:30:21 <sipa> it's just that only the lowest 20 bits are in the header
 271 2014-09-02 06:30:24 <justanot1eruser> at least 32 bits ensures the miners needs to maintain their 51% for 62 years
 272 2014-09-02 06:30:29 <gmaxwell> I don't think a 64 bit timestamp would be am improvement at all. IT would just be more cost for SPV nodes for more gain.
 273 2014-09-02 06:30:36 <gmaxwell> er for no gain.
 274 2014-09-02 06:30:48 <justanot1eruser> sipa: oh, well if there's a 64 bit timestamp in the coinbase, no problem
 275 2014-09-02 06:30:54 <gmaxwell> As sipa notes, 20 bits would have been fine. 32 bits is a handy value.
 276 2014-09-02 06:30:54 <sipa> justanot1eruser: no, no, no
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 278 2014-09-02 06:31:02 <sipa> justanot1eruser: the 64 bit value is implicit
 279 2014-09-02 06:31:04 <dcousens> justanot1eruser: I think he means stored internally, locally
 280 2014-09-02 06:31:05 <justanot1eruser> oh
 281 2014-09-02 06:31:13 <sipa> justanot1eruser: but there is a deterministic algorithm for computing it
 282 2014-09-02 06:31:13 <dcousens> because the remaining 44 bits can be implied
 283 2014-09-02 06:31:36 <gmaxwell> similar to how the full sequence counter is handled in SRTP.
 284 2014-09-02 06:31:51 <justanot1eruser> how? Isn't it possible that the miner could have just created those blocks that close and they took that long to propogate to you in this system?
 285 2014-09-02 06:32:22 <sipa> the timestamp is fixed
 286 2014-09-02 06:32:42 <sipa> can you give a specific example?
 287 2014-09-02 06:32:46 <justanot1eruser> hmm
 288 2014-09-02 06:33:18 <sipa> let's simplify things first and say the timestamp has to be always at least equal to the previous block hash
 289 2014-09-02 06:33:29 <poutine> I wrote a tutorial on crafting nonstandard transactions using bitcoinjs-lib and nodejs, would appreciate feedback, both stylistic and technical: http://pastedown.ctrl-c.us/#GwNSvBuqgHEBbubtumnd4qQ0yDE.markdown
 290 2014-09-02 06:33:55 <justanot1eruser> sipa: gets rid of some attacks
 291 2014-09-02 06:34:04 <justanot1eruser> (potential attacks I mean)
 292 2014-09-02 06:34:07 <gmaxwell> what gets rid of some attacks?
 293 2014-09-02 06:34:16 <justanot1eruser> saying 02:27 < sipa> let's simplify things first and say the timestamp has to be always at least equal to the previous block hash
 294 2014-09-02 06:34:29 <sipa> i think it doesn't change a thing
 295 2014-09-02 06:34:29 <gmaxwell> No, doing that create attacks, but it simplfies discussion.
 296 2014-09-02 06:34:38 <gmaxwell> er creates*
 297 2014-09-02 06:34:45 <sipa> right, even the opposite
 298 2014-09-02 06:35:58 <justanot1eruser> well it may do both
 299 2014-09-02 06:36:20 <justanot1eruser> not sure of that though
 300 2014-09-02 06:36:39 <sipa> then FullTime(block) = ((FullTime(block->prev) & ~0xFFFFF) | block->nTime) + (block->nTime < FullTime(block->prev) ? 0x100000 : 0)
 301 2014-09-02 06:36:58 <dcousens> poutine: you specify TransactionOut = bitcoin.TransactionOut
 302 2014-09-02 06:37:05 <dcousens> but that doesn't exist anymore, and you never use it anyway
 303 2014-09-02 06:37:13 <gmaxwell> justanot1eruser:  imagine you have an 8 bit counter that can only go up, 0 to 255 and it wraps.  Say you read 100. Then you read 1.  You know the value is now 257— unless it was possible to wrap twice between two sampling intervals.
 304 2014-09-02 06:37:15 <justanot1eruser> the attacks would probably have to be due to the fact that a full node wouldn't know whether you are in the current time or the next time
 305 2014-09-02 06:37:17 <poutine> dcousens, Ah, thanks dcousens, fixed
 306 2014-09-02 06:37:27 <gmaxwell> justanot1eruser: it's unambigious.
 307 2014-09-02 06:37:36 <sipa> justanot1eruser: you're always in the time defined by the chain you're in
 308 2014-09-02 06:37:41 <sipa> the "current time" doesn't matter
 309 2014-09-02 06:37:50 <justanot1eruser> hmm
 310 2014-09-02 06:37:50 <gmaxwell> justanot1eruser: a block only exists in the context of the blocks that came before it. You cannot evaluate a block without the prior ones.
 311 2014-09-02 06:38:08 <justanot1eruser> right
 312 2014-09-02 06:38:20 <sipa> it does complicate some of the early-rejection heuristics, that detect faulty blocks before their parent headers are known, though
 313 2014-09-02 06:39:06 <gmaxwell> only because thats how they're setup in bitcoind, it's not an important difference.
 314 2014-09-02 06:39:24 <sipa> headersfirst doesn't need those anymore :)
 315 2014-09-02 06:40:09 <justanot1eruser> I think if there is a problem, it would be with the fact that you wouldn't know whether a block came 1 hour before, or 11 days after in a system where a 51% miner has the power to make all blocks appear really old
 316 2014-09-02 06:40:41 <justanot1eruser> I guess the deterministic diff adjustment algorithm would accomodate for that
 317 2014-09-02 06:40:49 <sipa> well, obviously, a block can't be more than 11 days after is predecessor
 318 2014-09-02 06:40:52 <justanot1eruser> s/came/has a timestamp signifying
 319 2014-09-02 06:41:12 <sipa> *its
 320 2014-09-02 06:41:22 <dcousens> gmaxwell: if you used the 20bit with 44bits implicit, surely that wrapping problem goes away for a veryveryvery long time, and you could then enforce previous timestamp is < than the currnet?
 321 2014-09-02 06:41:32 <gmaxwell> justanot1eruser: there is a minimum timestamp which is permitted by the protocol. The timestamp must be greater than the median of the last 11 blocks.
 322 2014-09-02 06:42:06 <justanot1eruser> gmaxwell: ah. well then it would automatically be 11 days
 323 2014-09-02 06:42:45 <gmaxwell> dcousens: absolutely not, enforcing the previous timestamp < current opens up attacks where a miner drives the timestamp maximally far forward, and subsiquent miners are forced to lie about the time. The lack of a monotonicity constraint is completely orthorgonal.
 324 2014-09-02 06:42:46 <justanot1eruser> making the timestamp last shorter than the difficulty adjustment period just seems ... weird to me.
 325 2014-09-02 06:43:06 <gmaxwell> dcousens: if you want a monotonic timestamp from bitcoin you can freely postprocess the miner provided ones yourself without creating those issues.
 326 2014-09-02 06:43:14 <sipa> justanot1eruser: the timestamp is 64 bit!
 327 2014-09-02 06:43:24 <sipa> justanot1eruser: it's just stored in a compressed form in the header
 328 2014-09-02 06:43:49 <dcousens> gmaxwell: yeah, aware of the current solution, but what stops a miner from doing the above anyway if they mine the majority?
 329 2014-09-02 06:43:52 <justanot1eruser> sipa: you're implicitly saying there is already a local timestamp system?
 330 2014-09-02 06:43:57 <dcousens> (that is, push the timestamp into the future)
 331 2014-09-02 06:44:21 <sipa> justanot1eruser: yes, only we currently just use 32-bit internal timestamps, and we store the lowest 32 bits of those :p
 332 2014-09-02 06:44:28 <gmaxwell> dcousens: that they have to be a (super) majority, which already violates the basic security assumtions, ... vs just mining a single block.
 333 2014-09-02 06:44:35 <justanot1eruser> such a silly and accurate way of saying that
 334 2014-09-02 06:44:53 <sipa> justanot1eruser: but you could just as well say that we currently have 64-bit timestamps of which 32 bit is stored
 335 2014-09-02 06:45:08 <sipa> justanot1eruser: and it's a temporary implementation optimization to just assume the higher bits are all 0
 336 2014-09-02 06:45:12 <sipa> :p
 337 2014-09-02 06:45:14 <dcousens> gmaxwell: so surely other miners/nodes could just reject a block that miner was attempting to push to far into the future?
 338 2014-09-02 06:45:40 <dcousens> s/surely/couldn't
 339 2014-09-02 06:45:50 <gmaxwell> dcousens: sure, but then you have an incentives problem. If you don't continue that branch you'll likely be beat out by someone that does.
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 341 2014-09-02 06:46:28 <dcousens> gmaxwell: but the nodes would reject it?
 342 2014-09-02 06:46:38 <dcousens> its not even something to be beaten?
 343 2014-09-02 06:46:54 <gmaxwell> No because the attacker can put the time right up against whatever threshold you have there.
 344 2014-09-02 06:47:31 <dcousens> true
 345 2014-09-02 06:47:34 <gmaxwell> (also, clocks are not synchronous, and can't be made synchronous without the kind of centeralized process mining is supposted to be avoiding)
 346 2014-09-02 06:47:43 <dcousens> but
 347 2014-09-02 06:47:48 <dcousens> they could only push it 2hrs forward
 348 2014-09-02 06:47:54 <dcousens> or whatever threshold
 349 2014-09-02 06:47:57 <dcousens> then they'd be stuck on that?
 350 2014-09-02 06:48:21 <dcousens> but then you run into synchronous problems... yeah
 351 2014-09-02 06:48:39 <gmaxwell> yes, so with only 8% of the hashrate you could constantly drive difficulty down.
 352 2014-09-02 06:49:03 <gmaxwell> well drive it down a half percent and then leave the network with tons of invalid blocks that drive it down further.
 353 2014-09-02 06:49:31 <gmaxwell> there are altcoins that have broken themselves with changes like this already, can't remember the name now. :-/
 354 2014-09-02 06:49:43 <dcousens> gmaxwell: their great for that
 355 2014-09-02 06:49:47 <dcousens> s/their/they're
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 357 2014-09-02 06:51:16 <dcousens> anyway, cheers for clarifying gmaxwell, sipa
 358 2014-09-02 06:51:21 <gmaxwell> there are all sorts of things that could be done for better timekeeping in bitcoin, but we need the time only for a very narrow purpose, so adding more of them wouldn't really be all that helpful. :)
 359 2014-09-02 06:52:20 <gmaxwell> (e.g. having blocks each commit to the miners observed timestamp for all the prior blocks which they directly observed, so you can do median voting on the observed time of every block)
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 362 2014-09-02 06:53:56 <dcousens> poutine: if you have any questions regarding bitcoinjs, feel free to ask here or in bitcoinjs-dev.   Always happy to help those using the lib :P
 363 2014-09-02 06:54:09 <dcousens> (#bitcoinjs-dev)
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 365 2014-09-02 06:57:16 <poutine> I read that OP_NOP1-OP_NOP10 are reserved for future opcodes, but I'm still not understanding why the script does not halt on them. Someone (I think gmaxwell) explained that if an opcode replaces a NOP code, it will just use some height rules, but I see no examples of this ever occurring, is there an example where this pattern of checking block height for the replacement of a NOP opcode has occurred?
 366 2014-09-02 06:58:00 john_z has joined
 367 2014-09-02 06:58:06 <gmaxwell> if the script halted on them they'd be useless for backwards compatible enhancements.
 368 2014-09-02 06:58:25 <gmaxwell> Because as soon as one was used all non-upgraded nodes would 'halt'.
 369 2014-09-02 06:58:30 <gmaxwell> So instead they must be ignored.
 370 2014-09-02 06:58:32 pjorrit has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 371 2014-09-02 06:59:16 <gmaxwell> OP_EVAL was an example of this, but it was replaced with the more terse p2sh. In general though you can't find height triggered rules in the code because we can take out the rule once the transistion passed if there were no earlier violations of it.
 372 2014-09-02 06:59:38 <gmaxwell> (BIP 30 is an example of that, there was originally a height triggered rule, and now there is just a test for the two exceptional blocks)
 373 2014-09-02 06:59:52 <poutine> gmaxwell, but if I made a tx with OP_NOP1-OP_NOP10 interspersed in the script, the redemption of it could be impossible in the future based on implementation, and things checking validity of transactions will have to then take into account relative block height adoption
 374 2014-09-02 07:01:00 <gmaxwell> correct, this is why such outputs must be non-standard now. Since if people start randomly sticking them in scripts, then their use as a forward extension mechenism would be complicated.
 375 2014-09-02 07:01:30 <gmaxwell> (bitcoin does keep track of transactions versions and heights for every txout, so the meaning of a scriptpubkey could be conditional)
 376 2014-09-02 07:02:04 <justanot1eruser> are ops 176-252 NOPs?
 377 2014-09-02 07:02:24 <gmaxwell> But better if there are just no examples, no miners mining examples, and the new behavior can just take effect past some point.
 378 2014-09-02 07:03:30 gotboompah has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 379 2014-09-02 07:05:02 <poutine> I was informed that no such thing currently exists, but is there any report on opcode usage by opcode on mainnet/testnet?
 380 2014-09-02 07:05:30 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 381 2014-09-02 07:05:42 <gmaxwell> I've tallied them in the past, though not recently.
 382 2014-09-02 07:06:07 <gmaxwell> there is pratically nothing on mainnet that isn't a ordinary transaction (well, there is some multisig use growing)
 383 2014-09-02 07:06:18 akstunt600 has joined
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 385 2014-09-02 07:06:52 <poutine> did you parse the block files?
 386 2014-09-02 07:07:20 <poutine> any hint for a duplicated effort?
 387 2014-09-02 07:07:30 abossard has joined
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 389 2014-09-02 07:07:40 <gmaxwell> no. Just had bitcoind dump the data on a rescan. (e.g. added a print for scrippubkeys in validation)
 390 2014-09-02 07:07:57 <gmaxwell> if you just want the utxo set, instrumenting gettxoutsetinfo works great.
 391 2014-09-02 07:10:14 bmcgee has quit (Client Quit)
 392 2014-09-02 07:10:28 <poutine> Thanks
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 398 2014-09-02 07:15:51 <shaileshg> Hi, i m creating a raw transaction and signing it with my private key.. but if there is change, i m sending it back to my public address instead of bitcoind creating a new receiving address and sending change to it
 399 2014-09-02 07:15:59 linuxnewb2 has quit (Quit: linuxnewb2)
 400 2014-09-02 07:16:15 <amaclin> poutine, I have analysed blockchain for all non-standard txs. Of course I saw your last one dd754e98867fc8eab853d721d32a160418acca020e6dddeb27592c7628177486
 401 2014-09-02 07:16:20 iamsatoshi_ has quit (Quit: iamsatoshi_)
 402 2014-09-02 07:16:35 <shaileshg> is it fine to do so? I am asking it because i created some such transactions.. but when i m visiting blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/txid, it is not showing up thr
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 404 2014-09-02 07:17:22 <poutine> I wasn't aware using OP_NOP# is bad
 405 2014-09-02 07:17:33 <justanot1eruser> poutine: it is?
 406 2014-09-02 07:17:38 <shaileshg> one such txid is 622598e4de12b34ea7eef2d1a8f599014dc5bae587ee6abe1dc06e5923fa364a
 407 2014-09-02 07:17:41 <justanot1eruser> Seems just like a waste of space in a tx
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 409 2014-09-02 07:17:55 <shaileshg> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/622598e4de12b34ea7eef2d1a8f599014dc5bae587ee6abe1dc06e5923fa364a
 410 2014-09-02 07:17:58 <gmaxwell> wtf who mined that.
 411 2014-09-02 07:19:50 <amaclin> it is much better to use testnet for non-standard txs imho
 412 2014-09-02 07:20:09 <BlueMatt> if you can get it mined, go for it
 413 2014-09-02 07:20:16 <BlueMatt> but its often hard to get mined
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 430 2014-09-02 07:49:48 <edcba> i have some random idea : fee according to OP frequency
 431 2014-09-02 07:50:25 <justanot1eruser> edcba: fee for whom?
 432 2014-09-02 07:50:48 <justanot1eruser> maybe the full nodes would care about how much they compute, but the miners really only care about maximizing profits
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 470 2014-09-02 08:20:13 <warren> sipa: pingt
 471 2014-09-02 08:20:36 <sipa> warren: pongt
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 540 2014-09-02 09:41:54 <wumpus> ...remind me again, why are we using computers for important stuff? https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~safari/pubs/kim-isca14.pdf
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 548 2014-09-02 09:50:19 <gmaxwell> wumpus: your response is much like mine was,
 549 2014-09-02 09:50:19 <gmaxwell> $ grep isca14 \#bitcoin-wizards.log
 550 2014-09-02 09:50:20 <gmaxwell> 14:51 <@gmaxwell> On today's expisode of eveything is broken and we're doomed. http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~yoonguk/papers/kim-isca14.pdf
 551 2014-09-02 09:50:34 <wumpus> hah, sorry, didn't see that
 552 2014-09-02 09:50:43 <gmaxwell> it was some months ago.
 553 2014-09-02 09:50:54 <gmaxwell> Interesting paper none the less. Also: I <3 ecc ram.
 554 2014-09-02 09:51:59 <wumpus> it looks like assumptions that you make at a certain level are always bound to be undermined from a lower level, even if you prove that your system is safe at some level of abstraction a 'submarine' attack like this will catch you
 555 2014-09-02 09:52:06 <epscy> i'm not sure a world run by pen and paper was any less error prone
 556 2014-09-02 09:52:43 <z33and000h> http://themoscownews.com/russia/20130711/191758523/Russian-security-agency-to-buy-typewriters-to-avoid-surveillance.html
 557 2014-09-02 09:52:57 <epscy> i guess the economies of scale computers allow raise the stakes somewhat though
 558 2014-09-02 09:53:06 <wumpus> like you can just twiddle bits and make something happen at a physical level, and there goes your carefully-constructed castle in the air
 559 2014-09-02 09:53:13 benrcole1 has joined
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 561 2014-09-02 09:53:53 <wumpus> epscy: oh sure, brains and pieces of paper are nothing better :-)
 562 2014-09-02 09:56:13 <epscy> i blame entropy, nothing can ever be stable in this crappy universe ;)
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 565 2014-09-02 09:59:56 <wumpus> it makes me think of some experiments with evolutionary computation, where the evolution came up with an algorithm no one could initially understand how it worked, but that was because it relied on some low-level hardware properties/bugs
 566 2014-09-02 10:00:20 RoboTeddy has joined
 567 2014-09-02 10:01:05 <wumpus> anyhow - we think at well-defined levels of abstraction, but the universe does not :)
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 589 2014-09-02 10:37:38 <warren> Hmm, sometimes when shutting down bitcoin-0.9.3 branch it crashes with an assertion failure.
 590 2014-09-02 10:37:38 <warren> bitcoin-qt: db/version_set.cc:789: leveldb::VersionSet::~VersionSet(): Assertion `dummy_versions_.next_ == &dummy_versions_' failed.
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 592 2014-09-02 10:38:11 <wumpus> that's a regression of 0.9.3 compared to 0.9.2?
 593 2014-09-02 10:38:36 <wumpus> strange; looks like it's in leveldb, we didn't change anything there
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 600 2014-09-02 10:40:32 <wumpus> jtimon: you have so many pull requests open, it's really hard to keep track of for me
 601 2014-09-02 10:40:55 agorist000 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 602 2014-09-02 10:41:00 <jtimon> yeah, I'm closing those that are dependent on others right now
 603 2014-09-02 10:41:32 <jtimon> sorry, about that, had to clarify my mind first
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 607 2014-09-02 10:43:40 <jtimon> well, with an exception although #4754 depends on #4812 I'll leave it open
 608 2014-09-02 10:44:47 <warren> wumpus: no, I haven't tried local builds on Fedora for a few months, so I don't know when this happened
 609 2014-09-02 10:45:04 <wumpus> if it is in 0.9.2.1 I've never heard it reported before
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 611 2014-09-02 10:48:37 <wumpus> google does turn up some matches on the leveldb mailing list
 612 2014-09-02 10:48:48 <wumpus> ...from 2011
 613 2014-09-02 10:49:03 <warren> I've literally never seen this error before today.
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 620 2014-09-02 10:53:30 <Mingw> Hi all.
 621 2014-09-02 10:53:39 <Mingw> I'm still stucked.. can somebody help me please?
 622 2014-09-02 10:53:41 Zoop_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 623 2014-09-02 10:53:57 <Mingw> It's just a problem with paths, since the compilation just fail when making the release..
 624 2014-09-02 10:54:07 <Mingw> Somebody expert in c?
 625 2014-09-02 10:56:12 MolokoBot has joined
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 627 2014-09-02 10:57:29 <b-itcoinssg> Mingw: Are you referring to the core client?
 628 2014-09-02 10:58:00 <b-itcoinssg> Mingw: If so, have you looked at github to search for your error?
 629 2014-09-02 10:59:29 <Mingw> no
 630 2014-09-02 10:59:32 <Mingw> Not core client
 631 2014-09-02 10:59:41 <Mingw> it is litecoin.
 632 2014-09-02 10:59:46 <Mingw> Under windows.
 633 2014-09-02 10:59:52 <Mingw> it uses .pro file yet.
 634 2014-09-02 10:59:59 Zoop_ has joined
 635 2014-09-02 11:00:00 <Mingw> I guess my error is in .pro file..
 636 2014-09-02 11:00:05 <Mingw> Some path is wrong there..
 637 2014-09-02 11:00:16 <Mingw> But im stuck since saturda on this shiiiit
 638 2014-09-02 11:00:23 <Mingw> I'm starting to being crazy.
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 643 2014-09-02 11:01:06 <b-itcoinssg> have you looked at the litecoin channels or the github repo then?
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 653 2014-09-02 11:15:22 <wumpus> no altcoin talk here please
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 670 2014-09-02 11:40:09 <jtimon> wumpus cleaned up most of it, reduced my open PRs to7 independent ones (with the exception mentioned earlier)
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 672 2014-09-02 11:40:33 <wumpus> jtimon: ok, I'll need to reserve some time to look at them :)
 673 2014-09-02 11:40:59 <jtimon> and sorry again about the mess I was making with so many open PRs
 674 2014-09-02 11:42:28 <wumpus> #4812 is trivial and removes code, thats' good
 675 2014-09-02 11:42:32 <jtimon> #4506 and #4775 haven't changed much
 676 2014-09-02 11:43:15 <jtimon> yeah, it makes no sense to move that code in #4754 only to remove it later
 677 2014-09-02 11:46:26 <jtimon> anyway, now I'm going to work on #4812/#4754 with sipa's suggestions, I want #4754 to remain move-only so I may add some preparations to 4812
 678 2014-09-02 11:47:09 <jtimon> the rest I shouldn't need to touch in a while but for rebases or nits
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 695 2014-09-02 12:04:39 <jtimon> nah, it seems I'll just leave both 4812 and 4754 as they are too
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 719 2014-09-02 12:29:00 <dabura667> Anyone know a good unicode normalization library for javascript? I keep feeding my Japanese into str.normalize('NFKD') and it doesn't separate my string into its components. console.log() shows no change to the string.
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 721 2014-09-02 12:29:10 <dabura667> (in regards to BIP39)
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 746 2014-09-02 13:17:12 <ThomasV> dabura667: what are you trying to do with japanese strings?
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 752 2014-09-02 13:21:10 <dabura667> To create a binary seed from the mnemonic, we use PBKDF2 function with a mnemonic sentence (in UTF-8 NFKD) used as a password and string "mnemonic" + passphrase (again in UTF-8 NFKD) used as a salt.
 753 2014-09-02 13:21:24 <dabura667> I am making a Japanese wordlist for BIP39
 754 2014-09-02 13:21:49 <dabura667> and I need to run it through UTF-8 NFKD but I am unsuccessful in javascript.
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 756 2014-09-02 13:22:34 <dabura667> ThomasV
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 758 2014-09-02 13:24:44 <ThomasV> unduccessful, in which way?
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 857 2014-09-02 15:27:46 <dabura667> ThomasV: str.normalize('NFKD') to normalize the japanese text, but when I place console.log() before and after the normalizing it only shows the same string in the console. I even put in strings that are known to be split when put through NFKD.
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 859 2014-09-02 15:28:17 <sipa> isn't the point of normalization that the printed form is identical? (<- unicode noob here)
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 872 2014-09-02 15:33:41 <dabura667> sipa: is that true?........ so maybe the console is supposed to show the same string?..... hmm.
 873 2014-09-02 15:33:55 <dabura667> brb, I'm going to generate two separate seeds and compare.
 874 2014-09-02 15:35:57 <sipa> dabura667: look at the actual bytes, not the printed characters
 875 2014-09-02 15:36:40 <dabura667> sipa: it looks like the seeds are different.
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 878 2014-09-02 15:39:45 <earlz> It isn't possible to do multiple RPC calls in a single request, is it?
 879 2014-09-02 15:40:12 <sipa> earlz: yes it is, using JSON-RPC 2.0
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 881 2014-09-02 15:40:30 <earlz> is that only in master/0.10?
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 883 2014-09-02 15:41:16 <sipa> no; it was merged on juli 3 2012
 884 2014-09-02 15:41:35 <earlz> hmm. I'll have to look this up. I never saw any reference to it
 885 2014-09-02 15:41:43 <dabura667> sipa: ok I was able to verify the bytes have been properly normalized.
 886 2014-09-02 15:41:47 <dabura667> false alarm.
 887 2014-09-02 15:41:49 <dabura667> Thanks.
 888 2014-09-02 15:41:52 <sipa> earlz: available since 0.7.0
 889 2014-09-02 15:42:02 <sipa> it's rarely used
 890 2014-09-02 15:42:07 <sipa> but it can reduce overhead
 891 2014-09-02 15:42:11 <earlz> is it listed on the wiki?
 892 2014-09-02 15:42:15 <sipa> no clue
 893 2014-09-02 15:42:23 <earlz> SEriously have never seen any reference to it heh
 894 2014-09-02 15:42:49 <sipa> doesn't surprise me
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 897 2014-09-02 15:43:13 <earlz> I'm building a block explorer and instead of doing the Abe method of reading blockfiles, instead opting to do everything over RPC
 898 2014-09-02 15:43:22 <sipa> sounds crazy
 899 2014-09-02 15:43:25 <sipa> that will take ages
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 902 2014-09-02 15:43:33 <sipa> even with batch rpc
 903 2014-09-02 15:43:41 <earlz> eh, I get about 1000 blocks in 2 minutes. Not too bad
 904 2014-09-02 15:43:47 <earlz> without any processing, anyway
 905 2014-09-02 15:44:07 <earlz> After the initial sync up, it shouldn't matter anyway
 906 2014-09-02 15:44:39 <earlz> From what I'm seeing, getblock and getrawtransaction also isn't locked, so I can do those multithreaded and speed it up a bit
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 911 2014-09-02 15:45:25 <earlz> the bad thing is I'm dealing with shitcoins too. So, coins with 1 minute block times are going to be hell because they have so many
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 913 2014-09-02 15:45:55 <sipa> both getblock and getrawtransaction acquire cs_main
 914 2014-09-02 15:45:59 <sipa> so they won't run in parallel
 915 2014-09-02 15:46:15 <gavinandresen> earlz: do you happen to be writing in python?  A regression test or three for the batch RPC functionality would be spiffy.
 916 2014-09-02 15:46:17 <earlz> I didn't see that :/
 917 2014-09-02 15:47:01 <earlz> No, C#. I could try to write a python repro though if I find any bugs heh
 918 2014-09-02 15:47:02 <gavinandresen> … and even spiffier is if you then updated the wiki once you made sure everything works properly....
 919 2014-09-02 15:48:02 <sipa> earlz: they're listed as 'false' for threadSafe in the rpc table in rpcserver.cpp, so the RPC system will acquire cs_main before invoking
 920 2014-09-02 15:48:13 <earlz> ah. the one place I didn't check lol
 921 2014-09-02 15:48:26 <earlz> I'm kinda surprised that read-only operations require locks
 922 2014-09-02 15:48:44 <wumpus> batch RPC functionality works, I have some basic python code that uses it, could make it into a regression test at some point
 923 2014-09-02 15:49:04 <sipa> earlz: could be significantly improved for sure
 924 2014-09-02 15:49:10 <wumpus> earlz: well even for reading it's important that data structures don't change while an operation is in progress
 925 2014-09-02 15:49:42 <earlz> eh, true. you'd think there would be some "read lock" that could be acquired that'd prevent writing or osme such.. threading is hard
 926 2014-09-02 15:49:49 <wumpus> sure, it could use a reader-writer lock, but it'd still need a lock
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 929 2014-09-02 15:52:33 <earlz> I don't know how the Abe developers stay sane working at the blkxxxx level, manually parsing and intepreting the files heh
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 931 2014-09-02 15:53:00 <dabura667> sipa: hmm, now the ASCII + English test vectors don't match anymore... running the tests with TREZOR as the passphrase and they used to pass... NFKD shouldn't touch normal ASCII, am I correct?
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 943 2014-09-02 16:03:18 <dabura667> sipa: nevermind... another oversight on me. it's 1am I should go to bed... thanks again.
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 967 2014-09-02 16:22:09 <wumpus> earlz: well, they obviously already implemented it though, why don't you just use their routines?
 968 2014-09-02 16:22:56 <earlz> because it's too high maintenance, especially since I deal with altcoins as well
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 970 2014-09-02 16:23:41 <earlz> IF you can setup an Abe block explorer for an X11 coin in under 4 hours, I'll shake your hand
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 972 2014-09-02 16:24:52 <earlz> in theory, it should be trivial, but it's not because you have to specify how the block is hashed, also have to cover things like address version number and a lot of other low level stuff that using RPC spares you from worrying abou
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 980 2014-09-02 16:31:37 <dabura667> https://github.com/bip32JP/bip32JP.github.io/blob/master/test_JP_BIP39.json
 981 2014-09-02 16:31:44 <dabura667> woohoo! thanks sipa!
 982 2014-09-02 16:31:58 <dabura667> I am pretty sure these are accurate
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1026 2014-09-02 17:08:08 <jtimon> threads are locks are hard, that's why I preffer messaging for concurrency, zmq/nanomsg ftw!
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1028 2014-09-02 17:08:30 <jtimon> s/threads are locks/threads and locks
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1030 2014-09-02 17:09:32 <wumpus> they're not so much hard, but very error prone, c/c++ are great languages for shooting yourself in the foot, doubly so with threading
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1032 2014-09-02 17:10:36 <jtimon> well, indepently of the language I believe messaging is a much better design paradigm for concurreny than locks
1033 2014-09-02 17:10:48 <sipa> it's more limited though
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1036 2014-09-02 17:11:05 <jtimon> mhmm, you can do everything with both
1037 2014-09-02 17:11:09 <wumpus> jtimon: I don't disagree 
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1039 2014-09-02 17:12:46 <gmaxwell> jtimon: it's very easy to end up with poor performance with message passing, keep in mind that on current hardware memory bandwidth is the most precious resource.
1040 2014-09-02 17:13:00 <jintelletec> any rails developers looking for btc work in LA?
1041 2014-09-02 17:13:04 <sipa> jintelletec: not here
1042 2014-09-02 17:13:19 <wumpus> messaging at least makes proper isolation possible, in principle the threading paradigm is leaky at all sides
1043 2014-09-02 17:13:33 <sipa> jintelletec: if you want to do messaging to avoid all locking, you must have a single thread (at most) per shared data structure to do updates to it
1044 2014-09-02 17:13:37 <skinnkavaj> Who did js library for BTC?
1045 2014-09-02 17:13:39 <sipa> eh
1046 2014-09-02 17:13:39 <skinnkavaj> Mike Hearn?
1047 2014-09-02 17:13:41 <sipa> jtimon: if you want to do messaging to avoid all locking, you must have a single thread (at most) per shared data structure to do updates to it
1048 2014-09-02 17:14:07 <sipa> jtimon: if you need atomic updates across multiple shared data structures, you're forced to make them part of the same thread
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1050 2014-09-02 17:14:59 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: no, he did the *java* library
1051 2014-09-02 17:15:14 <jtimon> no, you're not, you can have a worker for each step of a serial proccess, just like ford did to manufacture cars
1052 2014-09-02 17:15:22 <sipa> jtimon: serial != atomic
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1055 2014-09-02 17:15:59 <sipa> or you need a complex undo procedure to roll back changes
1056 2014-09-02 17:16:09 <sipa> which i guess may be possible, but would be terribly error prone
1057 2014-09-02 17:16:22 <jgarzik> Indeed; message passing is often an answer to familiar lock/unlock sequencing...  but damn it gets slow
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1059 2014-09-02 17:16:33 <jgarzik> "everything is a message" is pretty much true, right down to the hardware
1060 2014-09-02 17:16:39 <wumpus> use copy-on-write, or immutable data structures *ducks*
1061 2014-09-02 17:16:40 <jgarzik> but it doesn't make for the best model in software
1062 2014-09-02 17:16:54 <jgarzik> wumpus, transactional memory is the latest buzz...
1063 2014-09-02 17:17:02 <jtimon> my point is that there's many ways to do things with messaging besides "no different threads can touch the same shared structure"
1064 2014-09-02 17:17:06 <wumpus> ah, yes, transactional memory
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1070 2014-09-02 17:20:30 <jgarzik> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux3 has vaguely similar concepts in storage filesystem tech:  updates are written to long-unused locations in storage, and some time $later the just-invalidated data is forgotten.  in that way, you don't have to carefully order accesses to the same range of bytes, and (this was important at the time) you reduce disk cache flushing to near zero.
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1072 2014-09-02 17:21:02 <jgarzik> something like an atomic cow
1073 2014-09-02 17:21:33 <jgarzik> ok, maybe not, but I just wanted to say atomic cow
1074 2014-09-02 17:21:53 <gmaxwell> hah
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1079 2014-09-02 17:24:36 <MiningBuddy> o/
1080 2014-09-02 17:24:42 <wumpus> hehe
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1112 2014-09-02 18:17:30 <jtimon> sipa regarding CTxDestination, I could rebase 4754 on top of this https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/compare/bitcoin:master...jtimon:libscript-2?expand=1
1113 2014-09-02 18:18:05 <jtimon> and then move it to script/standard instead of script/script
1114 2014-09-02 18:18:53 <jtimon> but if it's going to be controversial maybe it's better to wait after 4754...
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1121 2014-09-02 18:23:48 <jtimon> what do you think wumpus, before or after?
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1127 2014-09-02 18:33:52 <sipa> jtimon: anytime you rebase/change 4754, previous review becomes worthless
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1129 2014-09-02 18:34:25 <jtimon> I just rebased it yesterday or today
1130 2014-09-02 18:34:31 <sipa> yes, i know :)
1131 2014-09-02 18:34:34 <jtimon> so all review work was gone
1132 2014-09-02 18:34:44 <jtimon> but I take that as a later
1133 2014-09-02 18:34:49 <sipa> wasn't necessary, btw; it still merged cleanly :p
1134 2014-09-02 18:34:57 <sipa> (despite what github said0
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1136 2014-09-02 18:36:09 <phantomcircuit> sipa, plz2test 4790
1137 2014-09-02 18:36:12 <jtimon> yeah, I was confused about not having to resolve any conflicts, I should have left it there then
1138 2014-09-02 18:36:26 <sipa> right; do one refactor at a time... it will take a while for a larger set of changes to be merged, but it means you don't need to constantly rebase dependent PRs, while probably few people look at the further ones anyway
1139 2014-09-02 18:36:38 <jtimon> anyway, better not thouch it again
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1141 2014-09-02 18:37:13 <sipa> phantomcircuit: will do
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1147 2014-09-02 18:38:46 <jtimon> I extended it with all the big code movements though (but without the movements to wallet), once that's merged, all the other changes are more independent
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1241 2014-09-02 20:37:29 <tigereye> I'm having a bitch of a time generating testnet coins. I just need 1 block, but even at difficulty 1 I can't find a block
1242 2014-09-02 20:37:43 <tigereye> Is there anything else I need to do other than ./Bitcoin-QT -testnet -gen
1243 2014-09-02 20:38:17 <Luke-Jr> tigereye: get a real miner like BFGMiner?
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1247 2014-09-02 20:45:56 <tigereye> cpu mining with Bitcoin Core won't work at all?
1248 2014-09-02 20:46:35 <tigereye> maybe this will be easier. If any devs have 50 testnet coins they're willing to share, please send to mvrHB2o8u8g4Q19kRc8WPYAymhadpvagL9
1249 2014-09-02 20:46:42 <tigereye> I promise to forward all test coins to a faucet when I'm done with them!
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1252 2014-09-02 20:48:06 <sipa> do you need 50?
1253 2014-09-02 20:48:12 <sipa> if not, use the faucet
1254 2014-09-02 20:48:31 <sipa> cpu mining will work on testnet, but it may take a long time already
1255 2014-09-02 20:49:04 <tigereye> Unfortunately I've over-used all of teh faucets. They limit per-ip. I need to send a bunch of payments for testing. Even 10 will work
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1257 2014-09-02 20:49:26 <kindoge> plus they're super dry by now
1258 2014-09-02 20:49:38 <tigereye> I was using faucets to withdraw directly to my payment addresses for testing, and that slows my testing down considerably when I need to wait 6hrs to be allowed to mimic another payment
1259 2014-09-02 20:49:55 <tigereye> I'm hoping to get a batch so I can send whenever I need to without ip limitations
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1261 2014-09-02 20:54:15 <sipa> what is testnet difficulty these days?
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1263 2014-09-02 20:54:21 <tigereye> 1
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1265 2014-09-02 20:54:33 <tigereye> ...which is why I came in here curious about why I can't generate a block with CPU
1266 2014-09-02 20:54:55 <sipa> testnet has a special rule that allows a diff1 block after 20 minutes
1267 2014-09-02 20:54:55 <kindoge> 524,420.54, 1, 1,1,1,1
1268 2014-09-02 20:54:57 <kindoge> last 6 blocks
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1274 2014-09-02 20:59:39 <sipa> ;;help genrate
1275 2014-09-02 20:59:39 <gribble> (genrate <hashrate> [<difficulty>]) -- Calculate expected bitcoin generation rate using <hashrate> Mhps, at current difficulty. If optional <difficulty> argument is provided, expected generation time is for supplied difficulty.
1276 2014-09-02 21:00:01 <sipa> ;;genrate 1400000 524420.54
1277 2014-09-02 21:00:02 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1400000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 524420.54, is 1342.56587853 BTC per day and 55.9402449387 BTC per hour.
1278 2014-09-02 21:00:19 <sipa> kindoge: ^
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1298 2014-09-02 21:19:17 <tigereye> ;;genrate 3.9 1
1299 2014-09-02 21:19:17 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 3.9 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 1961.33541408 BTC per day and 81.72230892 BTC per hour.
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1320 2014-09-02 21:52:28 <tigereye> ;;genrate 27 1
1321 2014-09-02 21:52:29 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 27.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 13578.4759436 BTC per day and 565.769830985 BTC per hour.
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1330 2014-09-02 21:58:59 <jtimon> tigereye maybe you can use regtets instead of testnet for your tests?
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1332 2014-09-02 21:59:12 <jtimon> regtest
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1408 2014-09-02 23:25:03 <mr_burdell> how does the difficulty calculation work in testnet?  couldn't you set your clock forward by 10 minutes to get a more favorable chance of mining testnet blocks?
1409 2014-09-02 23:25:16 <sipa> yes
1410 2014-09-02 23:25:47 <sipa> the diff1 rule isn't intended to be secure or anything
1411 2014-09-02 23:26:11 <mr_burdell> ok... probably why I wasn't getting any blocks either like tigereye
1412 2014-09-02 23:26:31 <mr_burdell> I mined a couple weeks ago on testnet for about 4 hours with 35GH and didn't get any blocks
1413 2014-09-02 23:26:34 <sipa> you're saying this is being exploited?
1414 2014-09-02 23:26:47 <sipa> it should be obvious if you look at the timestamps
1415 2014-09-02 23:27:41 <mr_burdell> I didn't really pay much attention to it... ended up getting faucet coins
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1418 2014-09-02 23:29:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the 10 minute rule is actively being exploited but i cant imagine extensively enough to cause a problem
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1420 2014-09-02 23:29:30 <sipa> 20 minute rule?
1421 2014-09-02 23:29:43 <phantomcircuit> whatever it is
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1423 2014-09-02 23:29:57 <phantomcircuit> i always set my clock forward 10 minutes and it worked
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1431 2014-09-02 23:34:37 <mr_burdell> ah... my testnet server is running without a wallet, so I guess I can't test it at the moment
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1434 2014-09-02 23:36:37 <Luke-Jr> mr_burdell: mining doesn't use/need the wallet
1435 2014-09-02 23:37:23 <mr_burdell> when I run "help", I don't see the setgenerate option
1436 2014-09-02 23:37:53 <mr_burdell> was that changed?
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1438 2014-09-02 23:40:53 <sipa> the built-in miner requires a wallet yes, otherwise it wouldn't know to which key to send
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1450 2014-09-02 23:55:14 <Luke-Jr> using the built-in miner for anything is IMO stupid
1451 2014-09-02 23:55:32 <Luke-Jr> even for testnet, it makes more sense to use a dedicated CPU miner
1452 2014-09-02 23:56:55 <sipa> for regtest it's fine :)
1453 2014-09-02 23:57:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yeah, regtest is the only case it makes sense :P
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