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  13 2014-09-03 00:11:46 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, "makes more sense" depends on your perspective
  14 2014-09-03 00:11:54 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, built-in miner is all I use for testnet
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  20 2014-09-03 00:18:14 <iamsatoshi> My fellow disciples, I have arisen from the ashes
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  25 2014-09-03 00:24:59 <imton> after months away from bitcoin development, did someone finally created a decentralized/escrow exchange?
  26 2014-09-03 00:27:57 <gmaxwell> 2/kb iamsatoshi
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  38 2014-09-03 00:43:29 <phantomcircuit> imton, decentralization and escrow are kind of at odds
  39 2014-09-03 00:43:39 <phantomcircuit> it's at best an open market for escrow services
  40 2014-09-03 00:44:23 <imton> ok, does it exists?
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  46 2014-09-03 00:48:49 <phantomcircuit> imton, openbazaar does exist, how safe/sane it is ... well that's another question entirely
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  55 2014-09-03 00:59:22 <GandalfGreyHat> Howdy, I'm looking for a way to verify someone owns an address via a website easily without requiring them to make an account.
  56 2014-09-03 01:00:14 <GandalfGreyHat> I understand there's a way to sign messages with your private key somehow, but is there a way that a verification check can be made on said messages via automatic means or a script?
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  59 2014-09-03 01:02:32 <GandalfGreyHat> Actually, my idea is dumb, I just figured out a way I can do what I'm trying to do without the need for that.
  60 2014-09-03 01:03:25 <GandalfGreyHat> Would it be better for me to require users always send from the same send address or have a way for users to make accounts on the site? If I'm trying to make it as easy as possible to tie isolated transactions back to one individual?
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 183 2014-09-03 03:59:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, does the pull tester build windows binaries?
 184 2014-09-03 03:59:28 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ^?
 185 2014-09-03 03:59:38 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: pretty sure yes
 186 2014-09-03 03:59:46 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: usually it has a download link for those even
 187 2014-09-03 03:59:54 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: yes, it did
 188 2014-09-03 04:00:19 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: past tense?
 189 2014-09-03 04:01:34 <BlueMatt> well, it used to do lots of things, but its been borked for a long time and its being phased out because it sucks....
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 197 2014-09-03 04:10:02 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, is the bitcoind.exe here http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/p4790_7838ae88a9a66b84621f5d3076d1cf194178ba45/out/
 198 2014-09-03 04:10:10 <phantomcircuit> actually a build of #4790 ?
 199 2014-09-03 04:10:18 <BlueMatt> if its linked from the pull, yes
 200 2014-09-03 04:10:28 <phantomcircuit> ok
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 205 2014-09-03 04:21:08 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, er why is it 90MB
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 208 2014-09-03 04:22:39 <BlueMatt> strip difference?
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 210 2014-09-03 04:23:11 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, also it crashes when run from cmd.exe on windows 8.1
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 216 2014-09-03 04:28:55 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: that sucks
 217 2014-09-03 04:29:09 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: again, unsupported, unupdated in much time, probably broken in many ways
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 219 2014-09-03 04:29:47 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: cfields is working on getting the builds from travis to be downloadable
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 221 2014-09-03 04:33:56 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i assume building for windows is now only supported in gitian or something?
 222 2014-09-03 04:35:41 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: no, its only supported in mingw
 223 2014-09-03 04:35:48 <BlueMatt> ./configure figures it out properly
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 265 2014-09-03 05:36:10 <lechuga_> let's say im writing my own bitcoin node and releasing it open source
 266 2014-09-03 05:36:15 at0mat has joined
 267 2014-09-03 05:36:45 <lechuga_> what's the best license that i can have in terms of personal protection from litigation while at the same time promoting maximum liability-free usage?
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 270 2014-09-03 05:36:58 <lechuga_> personal/organizational
 271 2014-09-03 05:39:20 <poutine> whatever license you feel is best
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 273 2014-09-03 05:39:37 <poutine> for legal advice, see a lawyer
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 282 2014-09-03 05:43:05 <justanotheruser> lechuga_: MIT
 283 2014-09-03 05:43:08 <justanotheruser> probably
 284 2014-09-03 05:43:52 <justanotheruser> though, you should look into the problems with altclients, mainly netsplit https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=260595.0
 285 2014-09-03 05:44:34 <dgenr8> what keeps a joker from constantly broadcasting every unconfirmed tx he has ever seen, trying to grow mempools?
 286 2014-09-03 05:44:55 <justanotheruser> dgenr8: #bitcoin
 287 2014-09-03 05:44:56 <phantomcircuit> dgenr8, whatever policy the peers implement
 288 2014-09-03 05:46:19 <dgenr8> i guess i'm suprised not to have seen this, or seen it described happening in the wild
 289 2014-09-03 05:46:51 <justanotheruser> dgenr8: well the peers you're connected to must not have a policy that allows spam
 290 2014-09-03 05:47:13 <justanotheruser> which is probably because they are running a vanilla reference client
 291 2014-09-03 05:47:49 <lechuga_> dgenr8: it would get rejected from every immediate node
 292 2014-09-03 05:47:56 <lechuga_> so it wouldnt propagate
 293 2014-09-03 05:48:02 <lechuga_> and would fill no mempools afaict
 294 2014-09-03 05:48:23 <dgenr8> reference client collects a great deal of non-confirming crud in 2 months http://mempool.info
 295 2014-09-03 05:49:32 <justanotheruser> dgenr8: seems to only have a handful of tx per day from more than 3 days ago
 296 2014-09-03 05:49:58 <lechuga_> how would he relay enough to grow the mempool to a material size if it wont exceed the utxo set size anyway
 297 2014-09-03 05:50:19 <lechuga_> he (sic attacker)
 298 2014-09-03 05:50:20 <dgenr8> good point
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 300 2014-09-03 05:51:06 <justanotheruser> lechuga_: he's saying relaying unconfirmed tx anyways, so the unconfirmed tx might be spending unconfirmed tx or doublespending since we are already allowing spam
 301 2014-09-03 05:52:18 <lechuga_> that's true unconfirmed spends could still propagate but how would doublespends be allowed in the mempool
 302 2014-09-03 05:52:36 <dgenr8> orphans are at least limited
 303 2014-09-03 05:53:05 <justanotheruser> lechuga_: we are imagining a world where spamming is possible, right
 304 2014-09-03 05:53:16 <justanotheruser> anyways, replace by fee would make that possible at a cost
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 306 2014-09-03 05:53:49 <lechuga_> yeah
 307 2014-09-03 05:55:19 <dgenr8> justanotheruser: which spam protection are you thinking of?
 308 2014-09-03 05:55:45 <lechuga_> justanotheruser: thx re: btctalk link
 309 2014-09-03 05:55:47 <justanotheruser> dgenr8: not allowing people to send tx about without a cost?
 310 2014-09-03 05:56:02 <lechuga_> also remarkably apropos
 311 2014-09-03 05:56:23 <justanotheruser> dgenr8: or at least not allowing too many free tx to be sent at a time
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 313 2014-09-03 05:58:42 <dgenr8> so an upper bound may be (utxo size + orphan limit) per node
 314 2014-09-03 05:59:27 <justanotheruser> you can make spam much bigger than the utxo if there is no spam prevention
 315 2014-09-03 06:00:02 <justanotheruser> for example, if there was no spam prevention, I could make a 900kb tx with a 100 byte output
 316 2014-09-03 06:00:16 <justanotheruser> so maybe multiply the utxo by 9000
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 318 2014-09-03 06:00:51 <dgenr8> yes, i just meant in terms of # of txes.
 319 2014-09-03 06:01:29 <justanotheruser> if you have the spam prevention of preventing doublespends and "softspends" (some coredevs don't like that word for reasons I forget) then yes
 320 2014-09-03 06:04:42 <justanotheruser> certainly isn't ideal to let the mempool be 10000 times the size of the utxo
 321 2014-09-03 06:05:50 <dgenr8> gathering up unsuccessful spends will only work against as small fraction of utxo though
 322 2014-09-03 06:06:23 <justanotheruser> unsuccessful spends?
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 327 2014-09-03 06:08:46 <dgenr8> non-confirming spends observed, remembered, and rebroadcast.   otherwise attacker needs to manufacture his own utxos at a cost
 328 2014-09-03 06:09:36 <lechuga_> justanotheruser: this thread seems kind of ridiculous
 329 2014-09-03 06:09:53 <lechuga_> none is ever supposed to write an alternate implementation?
 330 2014-09-03 06:09:56 <lechuga_> noone*
 331 2014-09-03 06:10:16 damethos has joined
 332 2014-09-03 06:10:24 <sipa> justanotheruser: what is a 'softspend'? I have never heard that word, I think.
 333 2014-09-03 06:10:29 <lechuga_> on the grounds that they cant possibly get it right
 334 2014-09-03 06:10:40 <lechuga_> wasnt bitcoind designed to be a reference implementation
 335 2014-09-03 06:10:45 <justanotheruser> lechuga_: was talking to a few people yesterday about this. Seems the consensus is they should use satoshi consensus code if they make an alt-client
 336 2014-09-03 06:11:02 <lechuga_> im for that, which would need to incldue a modular script runner
 337 2014-09-03 06:11:08 <justanotheruser> sipa: the way I've heard it use is spending an unconfirmed tx
 338 2014-09-03 06:11:11 <sipa> lechuga_: working on it!
 339 2014-09-03 06:11:14 <lechuga_> nice
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 342 2014-09-03 06:12:19 <sipa> well, not me specifically, but there was an earlier PR to add a libbitcoinscript.so/dll build output with a stable API, that can validate scripts
 343 2014-09-03 06:12:24 super3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 344 2014-09-03 06:12:37 <lechuga_> that was matt's wasnt it
 345 2014-09-03 06:12:39 <sipa> indeed
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 347 2014-09-03 06:12:51 <lechuga_> well i'd immediately adopt it
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 349 2014-09-03 06:12:59 <sipa> consensus is more than just scripts, but it's certainly the part that's easiest to get wrong
 350 2014-09-03 06:13:08 <lechuga_> nod
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 352 2014-09-03 06:14:17 <sipa> the PR is closed now because of some refactorings to go in first, but i hope to see it again soon
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 357 2014-09-03 06:20:08 <lechuga_> if alt-impls ran matt's tool and PT did something useful like add tests to it when he finds alt-impl forks the landscape would be a bit more friendly no?
 358 2014-09-03 06:20:41 <lechuga_> at least more accomodating of a more heterogeneous network
 359 2014-09-03 06:20:42 <sipa> eventually, i suppose
 360 2014-09-03 06:20:51 <lechuga_> which should fundamentally be more healthy
 361 2014-09-03 06:21:04 banghouse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 362 2014-09-03 06:21:15 <sipa> but we're unlikely to randomly run into many of the potential consensus-splitting behaviours
 363 2014-09-03 06:21:29 <sipa> as they are most likely things noboby ever considered
 364 2014-09-03 06:21:35 <sipa> judging from previous experiences
 365 2014-09-03 06:21:48 <lechuga_> if we write tests for known methods it's at least a start at a comprehensive regression suite
 366 2014-09-03 06:22:05 <sipa> fair enough; i couldn't hurt
 367 2014-09-03 06:22:09 <sipa> *it
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 369 2014-09-03 06:23:05 <sipa> but consensus systems are strange... it's true that a more heterogenous network is more healthy in that failure of one implementation means less impact
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 371 2014-09-03 06:23:38 <lechuga_> it's a complex system but i dont think it' insurmountably so. altho look at sendmail's history.
 372 2014-09-03 06:23:40 <sipa> but on the other hand, N implementations means O(N^2) different ways in which they could fail to interact with eachother
 373 2014-09-03 06:23:45 <lechuga_> lol
 374 2014-09-03 06:23:48 <lechuga_> gp
 375 2014-09-03 06:24:07 <lechuga_> but on that basis we'd all be using IE
 376 2014-09-03 06:24:08 <midnightmagic> plus new versions..
 377 2014-09-03 06:24:23 <sipa> lechuga_: me using a different browser has never threatended the internet; just myself
 378 2014-09-03 06:24:40 <justanotheruser> sipa: isn't that O(MN)?
 379 2014-09-03 06:24:43 <midnightmagic> IE doesn't notice if you write a netscape that can't parse IE javascript
 380 2014-09-03 06:24:44 <lechuga_> well akamai and google dont use apache for everything either
 381 2014-09-03 06:24:59 <justanotheruser> M being the number of operations needed to evaluate tx and blocks?
 382 2014-09-03 06:25:19 <sipa> justanotheruser: no, i mean the interaction between implementation A and implementation B can fail
 383 2014-09-03 06:25:29 <justanotheruser> sipa: in one of M ways
 384 2014-09-03 06:25:42 <sipa> if there are N self-consistent implementations, there are O(N^2) potential different interactions
 385 2014-09-03 06:25:56 <sipa> sure, add some constants; this is all handwavy anyway
 386 2014-09-03 06:26:11 <poutine> Is there a formal process for approving something like this: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg05675.html
 387 2014-09-03 06:26:21 <poutine> It's gavin's proposal to relax nonstandard limits on p2sh transactions
 388 2014-09-03 06:26:29 <sipa> poutine: already done
 389 2014-09-03 06:26:30 <justanotheruser> sipa: you're right
 390 2014-09-03 06:26:45 <poutine> sipa, I cannot send nonstandard tx as p2sh and get it relayed without finding a miner
 391 2014-09-03 06:27:00 <poutine> the IsStandard() checks apply to the serialized p2sh script
 392 2014-09-03 06:27:05 <sipa> poutine: because it's not in a release, but git master follows the rules outlined by gavin there
 393 2014-09-03 06:27:34 * poutine double checks but is on master
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 396 2014-09-03 06:28:40 <poutine> sipa, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L595-L598
 397 2014-09-03 06:29:21 <sipa> poutine: outputs have to be standard...
 398 2014-09-03 06:29:52 <sipa> but in P2SH, the output only contains the script hash
 399 2014-09-03 06:29:57 <poutine> sipa, the proposal is to allow nonstandard txouts
 400 2014-09-03 06:29:57 <sipa> which is always standard
 401 2014-09-03 06:30:08 <sipa> no, the proposal is to allow nonstandard redeemscripts
 402 2014-09-03 06:30:49 <poutine> How could you tell a nonstandard from standard p2sh.. the hashes would not be the same
 403 2014-09-03 06:30:56 <sipa> you can't
 404 2014-09-03 06:31:04 <sipa> the code you're referring to is irrelevant for p2sh
 405 2014-09-03 06:31:26 <poutine> c8b86e0dcfe3a1dd48c99ee4b5ddf6172a552303e7f338d49124e060caf62d09
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 407 2014-09-03 06:31:47 <poutine> That's a P2SH tx I made with a nonstandard out, I could relay the HASH160 <hash> OP_EQUAL without help
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 409 2014-09-03 06:31:51 <blah> hye
 410 2014-09-03 06:31:55 <poutine> but the redemption had to be specially mined
 411 2014-09-03 06:32:14 <sipa> poutine: yes, as there is no miner yet running the 0.10 code...
 412 2014-09-03 06:32:32 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 413 2014-09-03 06:32:36 <sipa> or the rest of the network, for that matter, to relay it to miners
 414 2014-09-03 06:34:03 <poutine> I guess I understand, I just am not sure why that code I just pointed to in master is NOT going against gavin's propsal there
 415 2014-09-03 06:34:21 <sipa> do you understand the difference between scriptPubKey and redeemscript?
 416 2014-09-03 06:35:19 <poutine> I understand what a scriptPubKey is, and what a scriptSig is
 417 2014-09-03 06:35:35 <sipa> scriptPubKey is the script as it exists, _literally_ in the txout
 418 2014-09-03 06:35:50 <sipa> in the case of P2SH, the scriptPubKey is HASH160 <hash> OP_EQUAL
 419 2014-09-03 06:35:59 <sipa> _that_ must be standard
 420 2014-09-03 06:36:07 <poutine> Ok
 421 2014-09-03 06:36:12 <poutine> I understand now
 422 2014-09-03 06:36:22 <sipa> it does not know or care what the redeemscript referred to by the p2sh hash is
 423 2014-09-03 06:36:45 <sipa> however, there is separate code for doing standardness tests on inputs
 424 2014-09-03 06:36:57 <poutine> It's just I compile master, and while I have not compiled in maybe the last month, the redemption with the nonstandard redeem was rejected
 425 2014-09-03 06:36:57 <sipa> which in the case of P2SH does apply some checks in addition
 426 2014-09-03 06:37:02 <poutine> because the serialized script was nonstandard
 427 2014-09-03 06:37:23 <poutine> but I trust you know what you're talking about so I will research more
 428 2014-09-03 06:38:01 <poutine> I also understand the miner situation with 0.10, but this is my mempool I'm talking about
 429 2014-09-03 06:38:06 <sipa> i see
 430 2014-09-03 06:38:23 <sipa> maybe it was from before the p2sh relaxing patch was merged?
 431 2014-09-03 06:38:34 <poutine> perhaps, I will research more, thanks for explaining
 432 2014-09-03 06:38:50 <sipa> also, still not every script will be allowed
 433 2014-09-03 06:39:00 <sipa> in particular, there are still size and sigop constraints
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 436 2014-09-03 06:42:25 <BlueMatt> cfields: are we not statically linking qt anymore?
 437 2014-09-03 06:42:28 <BlueMatt> (in releases)
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 440 2014-09-03 06:43:41 <cfields> BlueMatt: depends on the OS, and which bitcoin version
 441 2014-09-03 06:43:57 <BlueMatt> the linux builds linked from bitcoin.org
 442 2014-09-03 06:44:02 <BlueMatt> in the latest versions
 443 2014-09-03 06:44:07 <cfields> windows is always static. osx will be when the gitian descriptors merge goes in. linux are all dynamic
 444 2014-09-03 06:44:14 <BlueMatt> wat?
 445 2014-09-03 06:44:21 <BlueMatt> when did we switch to dynamic qt on linux?
 446 2014-09-03 06:44:36 <BlueMatt> or anything dynamic on linux
 447 2014-09-03 06:45:41 <cfields> been that way as long as i've been around, afaik
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 451 2014-09-03 06:55:00 <BlueMatt> naaa, everything was 100% static before autotools
 452 2014-09-03 06:55:25 <BlueMatt> not because its right, of course, but because its practical, and prevents dumb crap like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4799#issuecomment-53978821
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 457 2014-09-03 06:57:26 <cfields> BlueMatt: wouldn't have been that, i've argued (and PR'd) static qt several times
 458 2014-09-03 06:57:35 <cfields> but there are several good reasons not to
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 460 2014-09-03 06:59:10 <cfields> BlueMatt: bitcoin builds/links fine against static/dynamic qt4/qt5. all that matters is how gitian is setup to build it
 461 2014-09-03 06:59:25 <BlueMatt> hmm, well we had to be static in the wx era as we were using an unsupported version, and I know before autotools gitian was static
 462 2014-09-03 06:59:33 <BlueMatt> ie the RELEASE flag was STATIC=1
 463 2014-09-03 06:59:40 <BlueMatt> which static'd everything
 464 2014-09-03 07:00:04 <cfields> but that was when the .pro was used as well
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 466 2014-09-03 07:00:30 <cfields> so it still would've depended on how qt itself was built
 467 2014-09-03 07:01:26 <cfields> maybe you're right, i dunno. "since i've been around" pretty much lines up with the autotools change :)
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 473 2014-09-03 07:07:39 <BlueMatt> is that the only thing we dynamically link for release?
 474 2014-09-03 07:09:07 <cfields> yes
 475 2014-09-03 07:09:21 <BlueMatt> why is it special?
 476 2014-09-03 07:09:21 <cfields> well, and glibc/libstdc++
 477 2014-09-03 07:09:25 <BlueMatt> sure, sure
 478 2014-09-03 07:09:51 <cfields> because qt uses plugins to integrate with desktop managers
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 482 2014-09-03 07:11:53 <cfields> BlueMatt: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4727
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 484 2014-09-03 07:12:20 <cfields> it was originally static qt5, but moved back to qt4 after discussion there
 485 2014-09-03 07:12:37 <BlueMatt> indeed, though was there any need to go before 4.8?
 486 2014-09-03 07:13:01 <BlueMatt> does 4.8 use the same plugin model?
 487 2014-09-03 07:13:05 <cfields> yea, debian/redhat/centos/tails/etc
 488 2014-09-03 07:13:16 <BlueMatt> hmm?
 489 2014-09-03 07:13:31 <BlueMatt> you mean for dynamic, is there any reason to go before 4.8 static?
 490 2014-09-03 07:14:33 <cfields> 4.x static wouldn't be any benefit. either 4.x shared for most compat, or 5.x static to drop the dependency and upgrade
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 493 2014-09-03 07:16:07 <BlueMatt> it would be, then we wouldnt have to touch 4.6 or the issues there
 494 2014-09-03 07:16:15 <BlueMatt> we could use an actually up-to-date version
 495 2014-09-03 07:17:07 <cfields> 4.x static doesn't allow for plugins, maybe that's where we're losing eachother?
 496 2014-09-03 07:18:13 <BlueMatt> is there any use for plugins?
 497 2014-09-03 07:18:35 <cfields> see the link above, wumpus linked some images
 498 2014-09-03 07:18:39 <BlueMatt> I mean afaict, the difference is 5.X uses magical plugins to make things work, 4.X doesnt
 499 2014-09-03 07:18:48 <BlueMatt> yea, I thought it worked on 4.X static?
 500 2014-09-03 07:19:05 <wumpus> 4.x static has no benefits
 501 2014-09-03 07:19:12 <wumpus> no it doesn't, it doesn't work for any static qt
 502 2014-09-03 07:19:17 <BlueMatt> ahhh, ok
 503 2014-09-03 07:19:18 <cfields> no, static qt disables plugin support, it assumes you build it exactly how you want users to se it
 504 2014-09-03 07:19:19 <BlueMatt> thats the disconnect
 505 2014-09-03 07:19:35 <BlueMatt> 4.X static clearly has benifits over using an os-provided 4.6.OLD_AND_BROKEN
 506 2014-09-03 07:19:51 <BlueMatt> but, ok
 507 2014-09-03 07:19:57 <wumpus> old, not broken
 508 2014-09-03 07:20:15 <cfields> BlueMatt:  in that case, 5.x static is the way to go. 4.x static really doesn't make sense to target
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 510 2014-09-03 07:20:34 <wumpus> cfields: right
 511 2014-09-03 07:21:27 <BlueMatt> cfields: sure, I was under the impression 4.X didnt have plugin things at all and the idea of plugins to make things work with your os was a 5.X thing
 512 2014-09-03 07:22:38 <wumpus> yes, in 4.x it was normal for distros to just hack Qt into pieces instead of providing plugins :-) that doesn't help the static case, tho
 513 2014-09-03 07:22:40 <cfields> BlueMatt: nope. ubuntu (and others i'm sure) started patching it in in 4.x, it was fully mainlined in 5.2 iirc.
 514 2014-09-03 07:23:23 <cfields> er... 5.3
 515 2014-09-03 07:25:03 <wumpus> anyhow there is no ideal solution for the qt problem on linux
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 517 2014-09-03 07:25:38 <cfields> wumpus: i swear i didn't bring it up :)
 518 2014-09-03 07:26:27 <wumpus> but indeed, the choice is betweens 4.old dynamic or 5.newest static
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 526 2014-09-03 07:30:54 <BlueMatt> ok, ok, sorry to bring it back up
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 531 2014-09-03 07:38:59 <cfields> BlueMatt: np, was just joking with wumpus because we discussed it earlier
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 546 2014-09-03 07:59:01 <BlueMatt> I may get the cake for pull which touched the most files with #4830
 547 2014-09-03 07:59:26 <extor> Inspirational, http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html
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 624 2014-09-03 09:25:00 <btcdrak> Has anyone see this oddity? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2fbtb8/im_running_couple_of_full_nodes_and_noticed_a/
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 635 2014-09-03 09:52:41 <wumpus> I don't understand why we have a MilliSleep(50) in StopNode
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 638 2014-09-03 09:55:57 <sipa> haha
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 641 2014-09-03 09:56:35 <wumpus> bitcoind sleeps too much, it should at least get as little sleep as I do
 642 2014-09-03 09:57:35 <sipa> wumpus: i have a branch that doesn't keep spent-and-never-written entries in the coinscache... extrapolating it should he able to do a full reindex with ~1.5G of memory, with nothing written to disk
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 644 2014-09-03 09:58:18 <wumpus> sipa: nice!
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 646 2014-09-03 09:58:58 <sipa> testing now
 647 2014-09-03 10:00:22 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I don't mind changing from one MIT license to another, but do we really have to touch every damn file :p
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 649 2014-09-03 10:00:37 <BlueMatt> wumpus: im not changing the license, actually
 650 2014-09-03 10:00:50 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I'm making the headers match the license
 651 2014-09-03 10:01:17 <wumpus> hmm... but what is the real license, the one in the header or the one in the global copying file 
 652 2014-09-03 10:01:21 <BlueMatt> (and I dont feel comfortable going the other way because it gets less restrictive, so I'd want to ask /everyone/)
 653 2014-09-03 10:01:39 <BlueMatt> I suggest it doesnt matter as long as one is clearly strictly more restrictive
 654 2014-09-03 10:01:49 <BlueMatt> and expat it, it simply adds an extra clause that x11 does not have
 655 2014-09-03 10:02:00 <wumpus> but why a more restrictive license? what clause?
 656 2014-09-03 10:02:30 <BlueMatt> oops, wait...
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 658 2014-09-03 10:03:05 <BlueMatt> yea, I had it backwards
 659 2014-09-03 10:03:08 <wumpus> let's switch to LGPL while we're at it *ducks*
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 662 2014-09-03 10:05:02 <wumpus> at least the README.md could be updated to *what* MIT license, I personally never knew there was more than one
 663 2014-09-03 10:06:20 <kdomanski> wumpus: I think the names of those licenses are very non-formal
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 665 2014-09-03 10:06:57 <Arnavion> Could just use APL 2.0 and get copyright assignment for free
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 667 2014-09-03 10:10:15 <sipa> wumpus: i once got lectured by RMS about which MIT licenses existed, when trying to explain which one we used in bitcoin...
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 669 2014-09-03 10:10:30 <wumpus> at least the consensus code should be licensed under the most free license possible
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 671 2014-09-03 10:10:59 <wumpus> sipa: oh!
 672 2014-09-03 10:11:19 <BlueMatt> ok...sooo. Our headers say "MIT/X11" which refers to the license in our COPYING file EXCEPT for an additional clause which is included in the X11 license:
 673 2014-09-03 10:11:21 <BlueMatt> "Except as contained in this notice, the name(s) of the above copyright holders shall not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other dealings in this Software without prior written authorization."
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 675 2014-09-03 10:12:04 <BlueMatt> additionally, the specific license used in X11 refers explicitly to X Consortium
 676 2014-09-03 10:12:29 <BlueMatt> the clause quoted above is from wikipedia, which replaces "X Consortium" with "name(s) of the above copyright holders"
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 678 2014-09-03 10:13:05 <BlueMatt> however, in the expat license's main block, "THE X CONSORTIUM" is replaced with "AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS"
 679 2014-09-03 10:13:15 <BlueMatt> which I think is more consistent since we dont name all authors
 680 2014-09-03 10:13:33 <BlueMatt> thus, for consistency, I propose we add the following clause to the COPYING file:
 681 2014-09-03 10:13:39 <BlueMatt> "+
 682 2014-09-03 10:13:39 <BlueMatt> +Except as contained in this notice, the name of the authors or copyright
 683 2014-09-03 10:13:39 <BlueMatt> +holders shall not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale,
 684 2014-09-03 10:13:39 <BlueMatt> +use or other dealings in this Software without prior written authorization
 685 2014-09-03 10:13:39 <BlueMatt> +from the authors or copyright holders.
 686 2014-09-03 10:13:40 <BlueMatt> "
 687 2014-09-03 10:14:15 <wumpus> cfields: as for the macosx sdk, can't we (ab)use their cache to store that on travis itself?
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 689 2014-09-03 10:14:58 <wumpus> BlueMatt: would make sense
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 692 2014-09-03 10:15:52 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I'm not opposed to adding that clause, and in practice we've already been licsensing our code under it so ..
 693 2014-09-03 10:16:37 <BlueMatt> wumpus: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4832
 694 2014-09-03 10:17:38 <BlueMatt> actually
 695 2014-09-03 10:17:43 <wumpus> btcdrak: there appears to be at least one party experimenting with opening multiple connections per node, not sure for what purpose
 696 2014-09-03 10:18:11 <btcdrak> wumpus, but with 1.6TB of data?
 697 2014-09-03 10:18:13 <BlueMatt> ok
 698 2014-09-03 10:19:01 <wumpus> btcdrak: if they're requesting data it's probably real nodes
 699 2014-09-03 10:19:25 <wumpus> none of the sniffer nodes is actually interested in blocks, they just listen for invs
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 741 2014-09-03 11:26:06 <sipa> wumpus: it's closer to 2GB, but does seem to work :)
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 744 2014-09-03 11:27:59 <wumpus> sipa: well that the ccoinscache entries take up more memory than expected we already knew :)
 745 2014-09-03 11:28:48 <sipa> the earlier number was an extrapolation; must be that later transactions are larger on average
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 747 2014-09-03 11:29:22 <wumpus> they certainly are
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 749 2014-09-03 11:30:05 <sipa> and dumping everything to leveldb at the end made it spike to 2.7
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 757 2014-09-03 11:32:57 <wumpus> heh
 758 2014-09-03 11:33:07 <wumpus> one big batch
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 760 2014-09-03 11:33:21 <sipa> yes, one batch of the entire UTXO set :)
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 763 2014-09-03 11:40:25 <wumpus> does anyone perhaps know if there is any tool on linux to support generating 'stub' libraries, ie shared libraries that can be used to link against (w/ a certain interface provided by a real library) but don't contain the actual code
 764 2014-09-03 11:40:59 * sipa looks in cfields' direction
 765 2014-09-03 11:41:13 <wumpus> I've already asked him :)
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 773 2014-09-03 11:47:10 <hearn> wumpus: yes
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 775 2014-09-03 11:47:34 <hearn> wumpus: i wrote one years ago. it may be bitrotted but it basically allowed you to use regular code as if it was linking against a library directly, but the library was actually loaded via dlopen
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 777 2014-09-03 11:47:50 <hearn> you could test for presence of symbols before invoking them, control what happened if a stub was invoked etc
 778 2014-09-03 11:48:17 <hearn> does that sound like what you want?
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 780 2014-09-03 11:49:33 * hearn tries to find it
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 783 2014-09-03 11:50:34 <wumpus> hearn: hmm it's in the same direction, but not exactly... what I need is a way to generate a dummy library from a map file basically. This map file is, in turn, generated either from an existing .so library or in the same build process. The resulting library can only be used to link against and does not provide any functionality
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 788 2014-09-03 11:51:34 <hearn> i think you could just use it and not load the underlying library, perhaps. though i think the tool tries to load the underlying lib by default.
 789 2014-09-03 11:51:46 <hearn> well, anyway, it's here: http://listaller.tenstral.net/docs/relaytool-howto.html
 790 2014-09-03 11:51:48 <hearn> https://gitorious.org/listaller/autopackage-legacy/source/179c382bd30682ed1e525bd1494ead0ce42abbe8:apbuild/relaytool
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 792 2014-09-03 11:52:20 <hearn> i have absolutely no clue if it still works on modern linuxes. as you can see the first version is about a decade old, though it was apparently updated up until 2007
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 797 2014-09-03 11:56:51 <wumpus> thanks' I'll take a look
 798 2014-09-03 11:57:37 <hearn> what's the goal?
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 803 2014-09-03 12:03:02 <wumpus> well the idea would be to link against a certain well-defined interface, instead of local libraries, for compatibilty with different distributions
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 805 2014-09-03 12:03:55 <hearn> that's what relaytool was designed to help solve. about a decade ago i was working on the problem of distributing binaries to linux users
 806 2014-09-03 12:03:57 <wumpus> (without having to build those versions of the libraries, or copying them from a running system)
 807 2014-09-03 12:04:08 <hearn> version skew in the libraries, what's available, what's not etc, binary compatibility problems with glibc
 808 2014-09-03 12:04:14 <hearn> i wrote solutions for lots of them
 809 2014-09-03 12:04:37 <hearn> you can say "only load the symbols used in these files", for example.
 810 2014-09-03 12:04:57 <hearn> of course you still have a bit of manual work. if some linux users have feature X and others don't, well, you need to be able to fall back gracefully at runtime no matter what
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 812 2014-09-03 12:05:24 <wumpus> currently we just build all the libraries, which is ok for small libraries, but has some overhead for a monster like qt
 813 2014-09-03 12:05:42 <hearn> you mean build in gitian?
 814 2014-09-03 12:06:15 <wumpus> yes, for example
 815 2014-09-03 12:06:24 <hearn> generally it should "just work" without any special hacks, unless the header files of the library magically rewrite your code to "upgrade it". GTK and glibc were always terrible for that. this is where the "you must compile on the oldest distro you care about" black magic came from
 816 2014-09-03 12:07:25 <hearn> for C++ it can be difficult to do this though because you end up linking against pieces of data and not just functions. relaytool has some support for this but i can't remember how well it worked.
 817 2014-09-03 12:07:33 <hearn> i'd just copy the libraries
 818 2014-09-03 12:07:48 <wumpus> well, we do that right now, but I was hoping there would be a way to avoid this
 819 2014-09-03 12:08:32 <wumpus> indeed, it would also have to handle pieces of data, not just functions (although the content of the data itself doesn't matter because it's never used)
 820 2014-09-03 12:09:16 <hearn> *shrug* probably not worth the effort. the binaries aren't that big, are they? copying them should not be a big deal. stripping the code from the ABI definition seems like a lot of work for little gain. for relaytool it was worth it because we wanted the same binary to adapt gracefully to different distro and library versions.
 821 2014-09-03 12:09:31 <hearn> but if there won't be any runtime adaptation and it's just about compile times, i'd just go with binary copies
 822 2014-09-03 12:10:01 <wumpus> well we can't copy the binary, everything has to be built from source... the intermediate binaries are cached, but it's some overhead just to have an interface
 823 2014-09-03 12:10:32 <hearn> they have to be built from source, why? you can hard-code the library hashes, right
 824 2014-09-03 12:10:43 <wumpus> right, I had hoped there was just some obscure option to objcopy to do this
 825 2014-09-03 12:11:24 <wumpus> if it involves reviving ancient code it's indeed not worth it, was asking just in case, I don't want to spend much time on it
 826 2014-09-03 12:11:42 <hearn> ok
 827 2014-09-03 12:11:59 <hearn> in theory relaytool should still work, the ELF ABI is a stable standard. but i haven't tried it
 828 2014-09-03 12:12:04 <hearn> (lately)
 829 2014-09-03 12:12:41 <wumpus> the oracle compiler dues support it :p http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/819-0690/chapter2-22.html
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 831 2014-09-03 12:14:41 <hearn> right, solaris
 832 2014-09-03 12:15:07 <hearn> is this impacting your productivity? i thought gitian builds were only made at release time. perhaps the foundation can set up a compile farm
 833 2014-09-03 12:15:42 <sipa> ideally, we're able to test all supported platforms exactly as they would be at release
 834 2014-09-03 12:16:00 <sipa> otherwise you encounter things like using some old GCC compiler unsupported feature way too late
 835 2014-09-03 12:16:41 <wumpus> hearn: well both gitian and the travis tester (will) use the new depends mechanism
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 837 2014-09-03 12:17:28 <hearn> oh,travis is going to be compiling qt over and over? that's suboptimal
 838 2014-09-03 12:17:38 <wumpus> hearn: so this is something called every few minutes, not just before releases (though the stub libraries wouldn't impact the median build times, as said, intermediate libraries are cached)
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 840 2014-09-03 12:17:59 <wumpus> no, it's actually caching it (just like it would have to when statically linking)
 841 2014-09-03 12:18:16 <hearn> ok
 842 2014-09-03 12:18:35 <wumpus> I'm just interested in it
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 844 2014-09-03 12:19:32 <hearn> relaytool is a pretty funny piece of code. it's a bash script that generates a C file which has inline assembly stubs.
 845 2014-09-03 12:19:35 <hearn> :)
 846 2014-09-03 12:19:39 <hearn> it was nice to use though!
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 849 2014-09-03 12:22:21 <wumpus> well sure it has to generate something that can be compiled back to a library, so a C file with inline assembly stubs makes sense
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 851 2014-09-03 12:23:30 <wumpus> that's closest to a working solution you'll get with GNU tools, with LLVM it could be solved more elegantly by generating bytecode and compiling that to a library directly
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 856 2014-09-03 12:26:03 <hearn> yeah. i so do not miss screwing around with c/c++ toolchains ....
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 861 2014-09-03 12:27:43 <wumpus> well of course it'd be possible to write the ELF library directly, there's no need to generate any code just symbols, not rocket science but pretty masochistic
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 863 2014-09-03 12:28:07 <hearn> as a veteran of working directly with ELF, yes masochistic is definitely the right word to use :)
 864 2014-09-03 12:29:15 <hearn> i wrote the first version of this program (it was rewritten later but worked in substantially the same way)
 865 2014-09-03 12:29:15 <hearn> https://github.com/wine-mirror/wine/blob/master/loader/preloader.c
 866 2014-09-03 12:29:27 <hearn> probably the nastiest bit of ELF/address space/linker hacking i've ever seen
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 870 2014-09-03 12:33:57 <wumpus> "The goal of this program is to be a workaround for exec-shield, as used by the Linux kernel distributed with Fedora Core and other distros." hah, the most torturous code works around voluntarily added restrictions 
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 874 2014-09-03 12:35:16 <hearn> yeah that was fun
 875 2014-09-03 12:35:25 <hearn> i remember hacking on it on a transatlantic flight
 876 2014-09-03 12:35:31 <hearn> running notepad would fail like one time in three
 877 2014-09-03 12:35:38 <hearn> non-deterministic program startup yay!
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 900 2014-09-03 12:59:28 <wumpus> LOL https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4833#issuecomment-54290819
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 902 2014-09-03 13:00:49 <sipa> let's have a look at git blame
 903 2014-09-03 13:00:50 Grouver has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 904 2014-09-03 13:01:19 <wumpus> sometimes I'm not sure I want to work on bitcoin's codebase anymore :)
 905 2014-09-03 13:01:51 aphorise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 906 2014-09-03 13:02:33 <wumpus> don't blame gavinandresen, he just changed the Sleep to MilliSleep :p
 907 2014-09-03 13:02:45 <sipa> i know
 908 2014-09-03 13:02:52 <sipa> the sleep was put there by s_nakamoto
 909 2014-09-03 13:02:54 <sipa> that bastard
 910 2014-09-03 13:02:56 <wumpus> ooohhh
 911 2014-09-03 13:05:18 agricocb has joined
 912 2014-09-03 13:06:48 <wumpus> there used to be logic above there to wait for threads to exit, I guess it was part of that
 913 2014-09-03 13:07:02 <sipa> yup
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 922 2014-09-03 13:11:05 <sipa> loi, the million bitcoin question
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 924 2014-09-03 13:12:24 <sipa> jgarzik: not an expert, but i believe a license restriction is allowed by MIT; you're basically making a derived work with a more restrictive but compatible license
 925 2014-09-03 13:12:56 <sipa> jgarzik: while, assuming the implied license was the more restrictive version, loosening would require acknowledgement from copyright holders
 926 2014-09-03 13:13:02 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 927 2014-09-03 13:13:46 <jgarzik> sipa, mixing two things
 928 2014-09-03 13:13:48 lclc has joined
 929 2014-09-03 13:14:10 <jgarzik> sipa, I can incorporate MIT code in my GPL project.  That is fine according to license, going to a more restrictive project.
 930 2014-09-03 13:14:30 <jgarzik> sipa, Changing the same code's license is a bit different
 931 2014-09-03 13:15:24 <sipa> ok, that's possible
 932 2014-09-03 13:16:11 <jgarzik> sipa, BlueMatt's PR looks like a license change according to all my experience with Red Hat lawyers and copyright.  We had a lot of these issues in the kernel, making sure included code (often MIT etc.) was properly copyrighted, and going through the arduous process of contacting authors if not.
 933 2014-09-03 13:16:30 gavinandresen has joined
 934 2014-09-03 13:17:20 Rippleflip_ is now known as Rippleflip
 935 2014-09-03 13:17:30 <jgarzik> usually it was the old-BSD with advertising clause that needed changing to a better license without advertising clause.  Can't just relicense BSD code, as permissive a license as it is.
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 943 2014-09-03 13:23:13 <wumpus> so the advertising clause, innocent as it looks, is a problem?
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 946 2014-09-03 13:28:40 <jgarzik> wumpus, changing the license is a problem, regardless of the text
 947 2014-09-03 13:28:54 <jgarzik> wumpus, and it -is- a license change in that PR
 948 2014-09-03 13:29:20 imfaust has joined
 949 2014-09-03 13:29:22 <wumpus> the license is completely unclear though
 950 2014-09-03 13:29:55 <sipa> wait, where does the more restrictive version come from then?
 951 2014-09-03 13:30:30 <sipa> if the source files, the COPYING file, and the linked license text are identical?
 952 2014-09-03 13:30:39 <wumpus> good question, where does the MIT/X11 text come from
 953 2014-09-03 13:30:40 <jgarzik> sipa, from BlueMatt's brain :)
 954 2014-09-03 13:30:51 john_z_ has joined
 955 2014-09-03 13:31:04 <wumpus> eh not only, all the source files mention MIT/X11 in their header
 956 2014-09-03 13:31:09 <jgarzik> wumpus, clear or unclear makes no difference from the perspective of "is it a license change?  if yes, we must get permission from copyright holders" etc.
 957 2014-09-03 13:31:09 benrcole1 has joined
 958 2014-09-03 13:31:11 <wumpus> his first pull was to change those around
 959 2014-09-03 13:31:30 <wumpus> maybe that was the better choice
 960 2014-09-03 13:31:41 <jgarzik> it sounds like people are getting confused by labels
 961 2014-09-03 13:31:44 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4830
 962 2014-09-03 13:31:52 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 963 2014-09-03 13:32:32 <jgarzik> The license _text_ in COPYING and link matches
 964 2014-09-03 13:32:49 <jgarzik> If people want to bike shed over licensing _naming_, feel free.  I vote we call it the "nam-shub license."
 965 2014-09-03 13:33:07 <wumpus> I don't want to bike-shed about this at all
 966 2014-09-03 13:33:23 <sipa> ah, each file said it was MIT/X11, while the COPYING text and linked text were MIT/Expat?
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 968 2014-09-03 13:33:57 <wumpus> if it's fine as it is I'd prefer to keep it as it is, it was just like it looked like an inconsistency...
 969 2014-09-03 13:34:18 <wumpus> sipa: yes
 970 2014-09-03 13:34:27 <jgarzik> wumpus, sipa, No.  "Expat" adds a clause, and is a license change.
 971 2014-09-03 13:34:38 <jgarzik> if it adds a clause, it's not the same license.
 972 2014-09-03 13:34:44 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, not arguing with that
 973 2014-09-03 13:34:54 john_z has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 974 2014-09-03 13:34:56 <wumpus> Expat adds a clause? I thought X11 does?
 975 2014-09-03 13:34:59 <sipa> just trying to see where the idea came from that there were 2 different licenses in the first place
 976 2014-09-03 13:35:01 <wumpus> ok, never mind, I'll keep out of this
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 979 2014-09-03 13:35:23 <sipa> and it seems it's just because each file says "Licensed under MIT/X11"
 980 2014-09-03 13:35:38 <jgarzik> sipa, yes
 981 2014-09-03 13:35:47 <sipa> so, not BlueMatt's brain
 982 2014-09-03 13:36:14 <sipa> anyway, i have no idea about legal value of these
 983 2014-09-03 13:36:19 <sipa> but i wouldn't just dismiss it :)
 984 2014-09-03 13:36:37 <jgarzik> sipa, wumpus: The only viable fix AFAICS is simply removing the "/X11" string from each file.
 985 2014-09-03 13:37:02 <sipa> people may argue that that is a license change too
 986 2014-09-03 13:37:05 <wumpus> so you do admit something is wrong
 987 2014-09-03 13:37:31 <sipa> but IANAL, and i agree that it's likely that the link and COPYING text has more legal value than the name of license in files
 988 2014-09-03 13:37:32 <jgarzik> sipa, They would be wrong.  The license _text_ has always been the same, both in COPYING and at the link.
 989 2014-09-03 13:37:45 <wumpus> agree on that
 990 2014-09-03 13:37:55 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 991 2014-09-03 13:38:18 <sipa> jgarzik: no offence, but i'm not sure if i'm just going to trust your legal opinion here
 992 2014-09-03 13:38:30 <jgarzik> wumpus, Sure...  I agree that "MIT/X11" is not correct...  IMO it's bike-shedding over license name.  We can call it any name we want.
 993 2014-09-03 13:39:01 <jgarzik> sipa, That's fine.   We can go that route.
 994 2014-09-03 13:39:08 <wumpus> but it makes sense that the actual terms are what matter here, otherwise you could just look up anyone who calls their license a certain name...
 995 2014-09-03 13:39:12 <jgarzik> sipa, Any change should be approved by a lawyer, then.
 996 2014-09-03 13:39:23 <wumpus> and COPYING, as well as that link never changed
 997 2014-09-03 13:39:36 Quanttek_ has joined
 998 2014-09-03 13:40:14 <jgarzik> sipa, IME over past 15 years of copyright battles, every single time you change the license TEXT you must get permission from all the authors holding copyright.
 999 2014-09-03 13:40:21 <jgarzik> sipa, BlueMatt's pull changed the license text.
1000 2014-09-03 13:40:24 <sipa> jgarzik: not arguing with that
1001 2014-09-03 13:40:50 <sipa> jgarzik: but i wonder whether doing the opposite (changing the "MIT/X11") wouldn't require that too
1002 2014-09-03 13:41:25 <sipa> not saying that's likely - i agree that the actual text probably takes precedence
1003 2014-09-03 13:42:07 <wumpus> the MIT/X11 header was already in the very first commit, it was not added later
1004 2014-09-03 13:42:43 <wumpus> COPYING was called license.txt back then, but contents were the same
1005 2014-09-03 13:42:59 <wumpus> so this conflict always existed and we just propagated it to more files...
1006 2014-09-03 13:43:11 <sipa> yup
1007 2014-09-03 13:43:26 benrcole has joined
1008 2014-09-03 13:45:04 <jgarzik> I really challenge you to find a lawyer that thinks the title of a contract takes precedence over the terms...
1009 2014-09-03 13:45:15 benrcole1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1010 2014-09-03 13:46:00 <wumpus> and we can be sure it is a mistake as the terms of MIT/X11 were never in the repository, or even referred to
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1018 2014-09-03 14:03:18 <wumpus> in any case for new code and new files I want them MIT licensed (matching the COPYING file)
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1021 2014-09-03 14:09:15 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
1022 2014-09-03 14:09:34 <wumpus> though I'd already assume that is the intention of every contributor
1023 2014-09-03 14:10:13 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure "Expat" is just a Debian-specific way to say "MIT" because whoever imported the license didn't realise it was generic
1024 2014-09-03 14:11:04 <Luke-Jr> not sure why we'd want to adopt Debian's really-a-bug naming over the obvious/clear/sensible name used by everyone else
1025 2014-09-03 14:11:19 <wumpus> well - MIT is fine, the problem is the /X11
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1029 2014-09-03 14:12:43 <wumpus> and at least according to BlueMatt, MIT/X11 has an extra clause, although I cannot find that anywhere
1030 2014-09-03 14:12:44 akstunt600 has joined
1031 2014-09-03 14:12:54 <wumpus> some people also call the MIT license the X11 license
1032 2014-09-03 14:13:00 ak__ has joined
1033 2014-09-03 14:13:12 <wumpus> to add to confusion
1034 2014-09-03 14:13:28 <Luke-Jr> the X11 license ends with "Except as contained in this notice, the name of the X Consortium shall not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other dealings in this Software without prior written authorization from the X Consortium. X Window System is a trademark of X Consortium, Inc." *outside* the list of terms/clauses
1035 2014-09-03 14:13:36 <Luke-Jr> otherwise it is word-for-word identical
1036 2014-09-03 14:13:52 cym has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1037 2014-09-03 14:14:15 aphoriser is now known as aphorise
1038 2014-09-03 14:14:41 <Luke-Jr> so, the terms are the same, just the X11 project had an additional clarification in the file that it didn't apply to their trademark
1039 2014-09-03 14:14:49 <wumpus> so it is clear that Satoshi thought MIT and X11 licenses were the same thing, so he mentions both in the file headers
1040 2014-09-03 14:15:29 <Luke-Jr> there are actually 2 versions of the MIT license, the earlier one being GPL-incompatible and different from X11 license; but listing both seems clear he meant the newer one
1041 2014-09-03 14:16:33 banghouse has joined
1042 2014-09-03 14:16:37 <wumpus> that message "Except as contained in this notice, the name of the X Consortium shall not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other dealings in this Software without prior written authorization from the X Consortium" wouldn't make sense in our case anyway
1043 2014-09-03 14:16:47 <Luke-Jr> right
1044 2014-09-03 14:17:11 <wumpus> so anyhow, this is a storm in a glass of water, nothing is harmed by calling it MIT/X11
1045 2014-09-03 14:17:40 <wumpus> although for new files I'd prefer if it was just called MIT, to not propagate Satoshi's confusion on the subject
1046 2014-09-03 14:17:41 <Luke-Jr> IMO nothing is harmed, correct
1047 2014-09-03 14:17:59 <Luke-Jr> really it only matters when/if someone tries it in court
1048 2014-09-03 14:18:05 <Luke-Jr> which frankly, is never going to happen
1049 2014-09-03 14:18:44 <Luke-Jr> and if it did, I have little doubt the court would see the "MIT/X11" to refer to the terms in the X11/MITv2 licenses
1050 2014-09-03 14:18:45 <earlz> Satoshi is going to come back, cash out all his bitcoins and sue everyone using it ROFL
1051 2014-09-03 14:19:08 <Luke-Jr> earlz: you can't win lawsuit unles the terms were violated and you convince a court of that
1052 2014-09-03 14:19:26 <Luke-Jr> earlz: the only way to violate this license is to strip the copyright notice
1053 2014-09-03 14:19:44 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: you could also try distributing just binaries :P
1054 2014-09-03 14:19:46 <earlz> some altcoins strip out copyright notice by lazy renaming heh
1055 2014-09-03 14:19:53 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: that's allowed
1056 2014-09-03 14:20:00 <Eliel> oh right, it wasn't GPL
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1060 2014-09-03 14:21:46 <earlz> is there a channel for the speculations on Satoshi? lol
1061 2014-09-03 14:22:14 <sipa> #whereonearthissatoshinakamoto
1062 2014-09-03 14:22:58 imton has quit (Quit: imton)
1063 2014-09-03 14:23:26 imton has joined
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1065 2014-09-03 14:23:49 <earlz> it'd be awesome if Satoshi proved he wasn't dead and that he didn't do it to get rich or whatever by spending all his bitcoins to an unspendable transaction
1066 2014-09-03 14:24:14 <timothy> earlz: lol
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1068 2014-09-03 14:24:49 <earlz> I think in reality though, the keys to that wallet are gone
1069 2014-09-03 14:25:02 <wumpus> please move to #bitcoin
1070 2014-09-03 14:25:03 <sipa> earlz: #bitcoin
1071 2014-09-03 14:25:10 <earlz> lol ok ok. enough tangent
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1073 2014-09-03 14:27:31 <jgarzik> <wumpus> and at least according to BlueMatt, MIT/X11 has an extra clause, although I cannot find that anywhere
1074 2014-09-03 14:27:48 <jgarzik> wumpus, BlueMatt's wikipedia link highlights the extra clause
1075 2014-09-03 14:27:57 <wumpus> jgarzik: yes, Luke-Jr mentions what was added below, but it's not really a clause
1076 2014-09-03 14:28:51 serialbandicoot has joined
1077 2014-09-03 14:33:16 <wumpus> just a clarification about using a trademark, which has no relation whatsoever on bitcoin
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1082 2014-09-03 14:39:14 <jgarzik> wumpus, no that's not what BlueMatt's wikipedia link says
1083 2014-09-03 14:40:02 rdymac has joined
1084 2014-09-03 14:40:11 <jgarzik> wumpus, See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License#Various_versions
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1087 2014-09-03 14:45:00 <dabura667> sipa: https://github.com/bip32JP/bip32JP.github.io/blob/master/test_JP_BIP39.json
1088 2014-09-03 14:45:07 <dabura667> sipa: thanks for the help last night
1089 2014-09-03 14:45:48 llllllllll has quit ()
1090 2014-09-03 14:48:05 <wumpus> jgarzik: it's just that I don't 100% trust wikipedia
1091 2014-09-03 14:49:39 hearn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1092 2014-09-03 14:51:44 <wumpus> thinking about it, I certainly don't want to switch to a more restrictive license based on hearsay
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1113 2014-09-03 15:08:54 <justanot1eruser> Is there any scheme that could be employed so bitcoin could survive locally in the event that the internet is partitioned?
1114 2014-09-03 15:09:25 benrcole1 has joined
1115 2014-09-03 15:09:27 <petertodd> justanot1eruser: yes, ham radio, (very fast) passenger pigeons, etc.
1116 2014-09-03 15:10:00 <justanot1eruser> petertodd: so the answer isn't to get it to work partitioned, but to unpartition
1117 2014-09-03 15:10:11 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1118 2014-09-03 15:10:20 <epscy> i was just going to say, it isn't partitioned anymore in that case
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1120 2014-09-03 15:10:28 <justanot1eruser> intuitively it seems to me that there wouldn't be a way to get it to work partitioned
1121 2014-09-03 15:10:34 <epscy> justanot1eruser: i think the answer is no
1122 2014-09-03 15:10:36 <petertodd> justanot1eruser: yup, bitcoin absolutely depends on global consensus; there's no alternative to that
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1124 2014-09-03 15:11:17 <petertodd> justanot1eruser: even schemes that appear to partition the blockchain, treechains, sharding, whatever, don't work in the face of physical partitioning
1125 2014-09-03 15:11:26 <hearn> justanot1eruser: it could survive as two separate currencies with each side being worth less
1126 2014-09-03 15:11:42 <justanot1eruser> hearn: I think only one of the sides would be worth less
1127 2014-09-03 15:11:53 <hearn> depends if you could spend your coins on both sides or not
1128 2014-09-03 15:11:55 <epscy> hearn: wouldn't unpartitioning then screw things up?
1129 2014-09-03 15:12:17 <hearn> yes they'd be unmergable at that point. but i suspect a large fork would eventually become unresolvable even if the partition went away
1130 2014-09-03 15:12:24 Guest43181 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1131 2014-09-03 15:12:25 <justanot1eruser> hearn: and on the weaker side, there is no point to mining since your blocks will just get reorged out
1132 2014-09-03 15:12:28 <hearn> right
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1134 2014-09-03 15:12:47 <hearn> at that point it'd make sense for the island dwellers to deliberately hard-fork themselves out of the consensus for good
1135 2014-09-03 15:13:01 <petertodd> it's not practically possible to have both sides stay partitioned geographically, as there's no way to prevent miners in the wrong place from mining the coin
1136 2014-09-03 15:13:12 <justanot1eruser> I was hoping there was some idea maybe involving proof of being in that location based on some computation based on light speed
1137 2014-09-03 15:13:51 <petertodd> justanot1eruser: yeah, I had that one, the problem is it relies on a trusted, centralized, third party to perform that speed of light measurement
1138 2014-09-03 15:13:54 <epscy> hearn: i mean, it seems like a situation that wouldn't last for very long, difficult to imagine not knowing you are partitioned, and if txes could get reversed upon unpartitioning who will accept payment?
1139 2014-09-03 15:14:10 <hearn> only double spends would get reversed
1140 2014-09-03 15:14:39 <hearn> depending on the circumstances, you might be able to muddle through with just threatening double spenders with big sticks, for example. not really sustainable or ideal but for short term partitions ....
1141 2014-09-03 15:14:54 <wumpus> and transactions based on coinsbases of blocks that don't make it
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1144 2014-09-03 15:15:11 <hearn> yeah
1145 2014-09-03 15:15:27 <petertodd> wumpus: and anyonecanspend transactions, or anything using SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY, or...
1146 2014-09-03 15:15:52 Qatz has joined
1147 2014-09-03 15:16:22 <wumpus> petertodd: yes it's not pretty
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1150 2014-09-03 15:16:54 <wumpus> it is clear that partitioning should be avoided, luckily there are many ways to do that
1151 2014-09-03 15:17:14 <sipa> well, in case of a big partitioning, and both sides disagree about which side should be accepted, there is of course an easy solution: declare war!
1152 2014-09-03 15:17:28 <petertodd> indeed, having less miner centralization, even just more distributed pools w/o real management-level decentralization, is a big improvement in reliability
1153 2014-09-03 15:17:58 <wumpus> sipa: hah, proof-of-agression
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1155 2014-09-03 15:18:32 <sipa> proof-of-victory, i guess :)
1156 2014-09-03 15:19:40 <petertodd> sipa: note how schemes using client-side validation at one level decrease the chance of a partition - the proof-of-publication record is less likely to fail as there are far fewer validity rules to disagree on - on the other hand coming to consensus about what validity rules are correct to resolve the fork may be more difficult socially
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1158 2014-09-03 15:20:35 <petertodd> sipa: or in essense, client-side validation *takes away* the ability to "declare war" on rules you don't like by out-mining the other side
1159 2014-09-03 15:21:00 <hearn> we might be going to witness the first partition thanks to china, i guess
1160 2014-09-03 15:21:07 * hearn expected them to split the network years ago, surprised it didn't quite happen yet
1161 2014-09-03 15:21:25 <petertodd> china doesn't try to block satphones, among other things...
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1163 2014-09-03 15:22:13 <petertodd> that said, if we increase the blocksize the available defenses against partitions quickly become useless
1164 2014-09-03 15:22:49 <sipa> does china block carrier pigeons?
1165 2014-09-03 15:23:04 <petertodd> sipa: yes, they're hungry and eat them
1166 2014-09-03 15:23:08 <sipa> eww
1167 2014-09-03 15:23:29 <petertodd> sipa: only because of horrendous pollution...
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1171 2014-09-03 15:31:45 <wumpus> well as long as they don't (generally) block http it's easy enough
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1175 2014-09-03 15:34:02 <petertodd> china's firewall still operates on a blacklist model; north korea's firewall operates via whitelisting. getting blockchain data in NK is probably pretty much infeasible
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1177 2014-09-03 15:34:27 <petertodd> (modulo non-internet obviously)
1178 2014-09-03 15:34:46 <hearn> wumpus: no, why
1179 2014-09-03 15:34:56 <hearn> wumpus: great firewall measures entropy and does connection resets on connections that last too long and look encrypted
1180 2014-09-03 15:35:01 <hearn> block chain looks encrypted, entropy-wise ....
1181 2014-09-03 15:35:01 <wumpus> oh sure, but if you turn the country into NK I'm sure people have other things to worry about, like food getting in...
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1183 2014-09-03 15:35:22 <hearn> basically they try and allow "web like things" that aren't on their blacklist but block vpns and the like
1184 2014-09-03 15:35:50 <hearn> if they decide to crack down on bitcoin there, then there is no fix. we just shrug and say ok china, buhbye
1185 2014-09-03 15:35:54 <petertodd> hearn: easy to turn the blockchain into not entropy looking things, human readable text, images, etc. - tor has various plugins that do that
1186 2014-09-03 15:36:17 <hearn> yes and it hasn't really helped them, has it
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1188 2014-09-03 15:36:52 <petertodd> hearn: tor's issues in china is introducing new users; technically knowledable users with friends outside china have an easy time getting past the firewall
1189 2014-09-03 15:36:59 <wumpus> hearn: there are a lot of things that look like lots of entropy, such as compressed files, they can't block all of them
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1192 2014-09-03 15:37:15 <hearn> heh
1193 2014-09-03 15:37:17 <hearn> have you ever been to china?
1194 2014-09-03 15:37:22 <hearn> western internet there is practically unusable.
1195 2014-09-03 15:37:37 <hearn> they can do whatever they like to it really because most chinese are not going outside the firewall anyway
1196 2014-09-03 15:38:10 <petertodd> I've talked to actual tor devs about this... china has huge numbers of succesful tor users, the issue is making it friendly enough for new users, esp. technically unsophisticated ones
1197 2014-09-03 15:38:22 <hearn> this must be some new definition of "huge" i haven't encountered before.
1198 2014-09-03 15:38:32 <timothy> tor browser is friendly for anybody
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1201 2014-09-03 15:39:08 <petertodd> of course, all this works only because china's policy towards the internet is that using Tor, etc. is essentially *legal*, so individual users aren't worried about getting caught all that much; I'd be scared to try the same in North Korea
1202 2014-09-03 15:39:10 <hearn> usage wise tor gets kicked in the teeth by commercial VPN services. they're a lot friendlier and easier to use, even though the most popular one puts adverts into unencrypted web pages ....
1203 2014-09-03 15:40:02 <petertodd> hearn: you mean in china or in general?
1204 2014-09-03 15:40:06 <hearn> in general
1205 2014-09-03 15:40:22 <hearn> china might even be the opposite, i don't remember any country specific stats that i've seen (i mean outside the tor metrics page)
1206 2014-09-03 15:40:41 <wumpus> well if commercial VPN providers work, why not use them...
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1208 2014-09-03 15:41:01 <timothy> wumpus: you can't know if somebody is sniffing :)
1209 2014-09-03 15:41:12 <hearn> most users don't care
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1211 2014-09-03 15:41:20 <hearn> they just want to reach youtube or twitter or whatever site their asshole government blocked
1212 2014-09-03 15:41:27 <hearn> they don't care if the usa or us companies can spy on their traffic.
1213 2014-09-03 15:41:27 <timothy> most users use 1234 as password
1214 2014-09-03 15:41:29 <wumpus> timothy: well, same if you use the unencrypted web over tor... 
1215 2014-09-03 15:41:40 <petertodd> right, and VPN services have significantly reduced privacy properties, the Tor devs know exactly why those VPN services are user friendly and aren't willing to make the compromises necesary to get to that level of usability. relations between Tor and VPN services are pretty good - mullvad was at the same Tor meeting I was at two months ago for instance
1216 2014-09-03 15:41:44 <timothy> yes, but you can't know WHO is using this connection
1217 2014-09-03 15:41:52 <hearn> yes indeed.
1218 2014-09-03 15:41:58 <hearn> they have decided not to compete in that space.
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1220 2014-09-03 15:42:54 <petertodd> Tor's funding is aimed at a higher security level than VPN, so it's not surprising they haven't decided to "compete"
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1222 2014-09-03 15:43:46 <petertodd> anyway, they're still looking at ways to integrate Tor, VPN's, Bitcoin etc. to make  traffic analysis of everything more difficult
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1226 2014-09-03 15:46:38 <petertodd> for instance, mullvad had a fascinating idea of operating for-pay Tor/VPN entry nodes, paid for via bitcoin, and then allowing anyone to sell their internet access to act as those introduction points. in particular, install the mullvad client and the default would be you'd sell incoming bandwidth. the chinese firewall relies on identifying introduction points and blacklisting them, so when everyone is selling access that blacklisting becomes much ...
1227 2014-09-03 15:46:44 <petertodd> ... more difficult, esp. with steganographic hiding of the traffic
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1231 2014-09-03 15:50:28 <hearn> nah. not gonna happen, china can beat anything like that trivially. they are already auto-probing and blocking tor. google ran a project that had the right idea. let friends coordinate over sites that are too big to block (ignoring china for a moment) and use their friends internet connections via a chat client. from the pov of dpi it looks like video chat.
1232 2014-09-03 15:50:43 <hearn> this is good enough for turkey, iran, etc
1233 2014-09-03 15:50:49 <hearn> (the uk ....)
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1235 2014-09-03 15:51:49 <wumpus> encoding it over video chat is a good idea too
1236 2014-09-03 15:51:54 <petertodd> that's exactly the kind of thing mullvad is working on, with an added incentive of money
1237 2014-09-03 15:52:50 <petertodd> anyway, china is limited by the problem that their economic productivity is going down because of all this internet blocking. obviously they could block everything north korea style if they wanted too, but they have to strike a balance.
1238 2014-09-03 15:53:19 <hearn> yeah, realistically i don't think decentralisation helps here. you want as much centralisation as possible, to ensure that censors have to cause massive collatoral damage to try and stop the tunnels. google, microsoft, maybe facebook have enough weight to pull it off. individuals don't, really.
1239 2014-09-03 15:53:40 <hearn> right. china will probably have to relax things a bit in the coming decades. they're already doing so in the shenzen free trade zone
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1241 2014-09-03 15:54:51 <petertodd> s/you want as much centralisation as possible/you want as much participation as possible/ <- FTFY
1242 2014-09-03 15:56:20 <petertodd> china's massive brain drain to more free countries is an existential threat to the country
1243 2014-09-03 15:56:51 <wumpus> that assumes that the big players will want to cooporate with something like this in the first place, they may have enough weight to pull it off, but generally they just work with the countries they operate in
1244 2014-09-03 15:58:11 <petertodd> wumpus: "they" assumes those companies are monoliths - google is a great example of how the same company can both aid and hinder censorship in different departments
1245 2014-09-03 15:58:19 <hearn> yeah it's a tightrope walk. push too hard and the whole company gets blocked.
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1248 2014-09-03 15:58:45 <wumpus> what incentive would google have to provide something like tor access?
1249 2014-09-03 15:58:47 <hearn> but for example, in iran, when we started encrypting all gmail connections they tried to block gmail entirely. that lasted a few days and then they gave up and restored access. too much pain
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1251 2014-09-03 15:59:11 <petertodd> it's a prisoners dilemma situation that legislation would help - force all western companies to participate, so at least they aren't being put at a disadvantage relative to their western competitors
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1254 2014-09-03 16:00:10 <hearn> tor access? none. something like tor is toxic to large companies, too much reputational damage. but as i said they explored smaller lighter weight ways to get through national firewalls, using social connections etc. well it was handed off to some university iirc, some kind of joint collaboration, but most of it was done in house. not sure what happened to it.
1255 2014-09-03 16:00:12 <wumpus> petertodd: agreed, they are far from monolithic, but in the end it's the money at the top making the decisions, and government make good customers
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1257 2014-09-03 16:00:21 <hearn> or rather google explored. dunno about facebook.
1258 2014-09-03 16:01:00 <petertodd> wumpus: yup, of course, that line of thinking can also extend to "cut china's fiber lines" - obvious reasons why it's hard to get the political will to implement it
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1260 2014-09-03 16:01:07 <hearn> anything that boils down to beating firewalls is very politically problematic of course in the west as well. lots of places want to filter traffic and get upset if they can't. that's why it took a long time to go SSL-by-default on web search
1261 2014-09-03 16:01:20 <hearn> they tried several times and were forced to back down each time
1262 2014-09-03 16:02:02 <hearn> i think now they have a service that lets non-ssl access be requested by subnet or something. can't remember the details. people can request to get their networks unencrypted, iirc. been a while since i looked at it though.
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1265 2014-09-03 16:06:16 <hearn> what's the best way to figure out why i'm getting a 500 from bitcoin rpc? -debug=rpc prints nothing
1266 2014-09-03 16:06:29 <jgarzik> petertodd, indeed, Torcoin tries to accomplish similar goals as this mullvad idea
1267 2014-09-03 16:06:39 <jgarzik> petertodd, laudable goal, sustainable overlay network
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1269 2014-09-03 16:07:01 <jgarzik> "generation 1" P2P networks are all DoS-able, sybil-able, 100% volunteer.  Gen-2 networks will be sustainable.
1270 2014-09-03 16:07:05 <jgarzik> bitcoin is 1.5
1271 2014-09-03 16:07:07 <jgarzik> maybe 1.2
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1444 2014-09-03 16:23:11 <wumpus> jgarzik: what's torcoin? 
1445 2014-09-03 16:23:33 <timothy> just another spamcoin?
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1448 2014-09-03 16:24:19 <super3> uh there are two torcoins
1449 2014-09-03 16:24:36 <super3> one is a scam coin, the other is very legit https://www.petsymposium.org/2014/papers/Ghosh.pdf
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1452 2014-09-03 16:25:18 <jgarzik> wumpus, timothy, super3: the torcoin I'm referring to is not a scamcoin.  Idea is to incentivize running a Tor node.  Lots of good research and goals behind it.
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1457 2014-09-03 16:25:45 <timothy> Type: POW+POS / POS interest: 10%/year
1458 2014-09-03 16:25:48 <jgarzik> Is it effective right now, today?  Will it be effective in the future?  Unknown.
1459 2014-09-03 16:26:04 <jgarzik> Paying for decentralized network in a decoupled way is very, very difficult.
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1461 2014-09-03 16:26:12 <jgarzik> well, very difficult without being easily gamed.
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1463 2014-09-03 16:26:37 <super3> well at this point some inventives are better than none at all
1464 2014-09-03 16:26:42 <jgarzik> ultimately you want a proof-of-work, where "work" is defined as "being a productive Tor node"
1465 2014-09-03 16:27:23 <jgarzik> but then you must sort out self-dealing, differences in capabilities, difficulty in accurate reporting and analysis of work performed, ...
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1467 2014-09-03 16:27:26 <wumpus> hah, hadn't seen that one yet, search on google would only find scamcoins so I was sure that was not what you meant
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1469 2014-09-03 16:28:43 <super3> whitepaper is pretty digestible, its not perfect but its the closest i've seen to a "proof of bandwidth"
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1483 2014-09-03 16:35:23 <hearn> jgarzik: you can build micropayment channels to each relay in the circuit .....
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1485 2014-09-03 16:36:21 <hearn> (it's kind of inefficient to do this but it's possible and would only slow things down by a few seconds)
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1496 2014-09-03 16:46:37 <jgarzik> hearn, indeed
1497 2014-09-03 16:47:33 <jgarzik> hearn, I want all wallets to include base "paychan" support, as an enabler.  More people will be likely to build paychan services, if the wallets support it already.
1498 2014-09-03 16:48:09 <hearn> it'll be interesting to see how the different philosophies pan out. i've always implemented apps that contain small custom wallets i.e. embed the wallet in the app instead of the app in the wallet
1499 2014-09-03 16:49:12 <jgarzik> hearn, that tends to imply moving piles of money between apps, no?  I've thought down that road a bit too...  It is very useful to have money Right There, but the downside is forgotten money piles and a bunch of shuffling around
1500 2014-09-03 16:49:24 <jgarzik> and the problems inherent in added money shuffling
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1502 2014-09-03 16:49:43 <jgarzik> hearn, another positive is "sandboxing" -- a sub-wallet compromise cannot lead to loss of larger funds
1503 2014-09-03 16:49:44 <hearn> yes it does. however it means nobody is locked in to a particular wallet, and keeps the ui straightforward. in practice you just have an "empty wallet" button that takes an address.
1504 2014-09-03 16:50:00 <hearn> i mean a particular generic wallet
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1507 2014-09-03 16:50:36 <hearn> that said, i've regrettably never encountered an app that uses bitcoin for anything interesting except the ones i wrote myself, and those are not yet "killer" :) so i don't know how much hassle moving the money around is in real life
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1509 2014-09-03 16:51:00 <jgarzik> hearn, I like it because you can give a particular app a budget.  "Google Play, you are provably allowed to spend 0.1 BTC, and it is provably impossible to go beyond that"
1510 2014-09-03 16:51:00 <sipa> hearn: that's the right approach i think; at least initially
1511 2014-09-03 16:51:09 <jgarzik> hearn, or subscription
1512 2014-09-03 16:51:16 <hearn> when matt and I did micropayment channels last year, we implemented both approaches actually
1513 2014-09-03 16:51:21 <sipa> hearn: the hard part is making the complex technology usable, i guess
1514 2014-09-03 16:51:31 <hearn> on mobile we extended Bitcoin Wallet by aschildbach and added an android IPC mechanism to let you reserve parts of the users balance
1515 2014-09-03 16:51:32 <jgarzik> Another major downside:  Locking up more money, in total
1516 2014-09-03 16:51:35 <jgarzik> sipa, +1000
1517 2014-09-03 16:51:38 <hearn> there was a little permissions UI
1518 2014-09-03 16:51:51 <hearn> the apps themselves just asked the wallet app to build the micropayment channel
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1521 2014-09-03 16:51:57 <jgarzik> Disadvantaged users will not want all this money sitting around in unusable chunks
1522 2014-09-03 16:52:04 <jgarzik> they need (and count!) every penny
1523 2014-09-03 16:52:07 <hearn> on the desktop, i embedded a small wallet into the  app as inter-process IPC in a cross platform manner is sort of sucky and not working that well
1524 2014-09-03 16:52:43 <jgarzik> hearn, yep.  if you have some secure IPC, an app could request a budget, just like it requests storage ability.
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1527 2014-09-03 16:52:51 <hearn> my gut sense is that on android having an uber-wallet that exposes APIs for apps to manipulate parts of the users funds is the way to go, because android has sandboxes and good IPC. on the desktop, embedding is easier.
1528 2014-09-03 16:53:06 <hearn> right. and android does, so that's what we implemented. the details were fiddly but it worked.
1529 2014-09-03 16:53:11 <jgarzik> hearn, +1 mobile
1530 2014-09-03 16:53:14 <hearn> the code is on some old obsolete branch
1531 2014-09-03 16:53:19 <jgarzik> hearn, on desktop, it is moving to mobile-like app centric
1532 2014-09-03 16:53:34 <jgarzik> desktop just moves that way more slowly
1533 2014-09-03 16:53:34 <hearn> perhaps one day i'll be able to raise funds to play with micropayments again and go back and finish it off this time
1534 2014-09-03 16:53:43 <hearn> arguably desktops have always been app centric :)
1535 2014-09-03 16:54:31 <jgarzik> hearn, Would you accept a stable position w/ stable salary, that just paid you to "be Mike Hearn, produce bitcoin code and speak about bitcoin-related topics"?
1536 2014-09-03 16:54:47 <jgarzik> raise funds on project-by-project basis is just burdensome
1537 2014-09-03 16:54:51 <hearn> well, i thought about that when i quit google, but figured it'd be more fun to explore how to scale things up
1538 2014-09-03 16:55:01 <jgarzik> whoops, gotta pick up kid, bbiah
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1540 2014-09-03 16:55:25 <hearn> like, i can get a nice job because i can say "here's a pile of things i've done". but that doesn't help other people with less established reputations who want to hack on decentralised stuff or open source projects, and could do a great job, but can't quite justify being paid full time
1541 2014-09-03 16:55:38 <hearn> but if it doesn't work out, then maybe that's the direction i'll go in for sure
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1559 2014-09-03 17:18:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: so if COPYING overrides header text, whats wrong with changing header text to Expat, to be clear?
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1570 2014-09-03 17:28:57 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: there's nothing "clear" about Expat. Expat is just another software product, not a license.
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1573 2014-09-03 17:31:55 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: huh? the X11 license pretty clearly has an extra clause to its license
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1575 2014-09-03 17:32:14 <BlueMatt> it starts with "with the following conditions: "
1576 2014-09-03 17:32:27 <BlueMatt> and clearly doesnt end with the second-to-last condition
1577 2014-09-03 17:32:56 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: in any case, Expat, when referred to as a license, is a license
1578 2014-09-03 17:32:59 <wumpus> well - the link in the header and the COPYING file agree on the clauses of the license, it doesn't matter that it's called MIT/X11 or anything else
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1580 2014-09-03 17:33:17 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: no, it's a Debian defect that they refer to the new MIT license as "Expat"
1581 2014-09-03 17:33:21 <BlueMatt> in fact, if you go check debian, bitcoin and many other programs aren't listed X11 licenses, their listed expat
1582 2014-09-03 17:33:37 <Luke-Jr> ONLY in Debian
1583 2014-09-03 17:33:41 <BlueMatt> wumpus: so the header should be clarified to point to the right license?
1584 2014-09-03 17:33:46 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ok, MIT/Expat
1585 2014-09-03 17:33:51 <wumpus> BlueMatt: isn't worth changing all files for IMIO
1586 2014-09-03 17:34:06 <BlueMatt> wumpus: so...live with clearly inconsistent licensing?
1587 2014-09-03 17:34:09 <wumpus> BlueMatt: *new* files on the other hand should have non-confusing licensing
1588 2014-09-03 17:34:09 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: X11 has no additional clauses, just a clarification about trademark use
1589 2014-09-03 17:34:12 <BlueMatt> also, its only headers...
1590 2014-09-03 17:34:14 <wumpus> BlueMatt: yes
1591 2014-09-03 17:34:51 <BlueMatt> wumpus: changing all files sucks, when it conflicts....but it doesnt
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1595 2014-09-03 17:35:48 <sipa> it shouldn't conflict with anything
1596 2014-09-03 17:35:50 <Luke-Jr> GNU page about the X11 license: "This license is sometimes called the MIT license, but that term is misleading, since MIT has used many licenses for software."
1597 2014-09-03 17:36:17 <sipa> i have heard to many different opinions now
1598 2014-09-03 17:36:19 <sipa> *too
1599 2014-09-03 17:36:29 <sipa> can we maybe ask someone who actually knows? :)
1600 2014-09-03 17:36:38 <BlueMatt> wumpus: read the text..."Distributed under the MIT/X11 software license, see the accompanying file COPYING"
1601 2014-09-03 17:36:47 <BlueMatt> it doesnt say "distributed under the terms in COPYING"
1602 2014-09-03 17:36:55 <BlueMatt> so...its clearly ambiguous
1603 2014-09-03 17:37:09 <sipa> lawyers may or may not disagree
1604 2014-09-03 17:37:13 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: hence, expat
1605 2014-09-03 17:37:30 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: are you saying a judge is going to look at that and say "oh no, what COPYING says is irrelevant - it meant the *other* MIT license"
1606 2014-09-03 17:37:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa: lawyers didn't choose the license, we did
1607 2014-09-03 17:37:57 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no, I'm saying someone is going to see this and have to scratch their heads
1608 2014-09-03 17:38:01 <BlueMatt> if it gets to a judge, you've lost
1609 2014-09-03 17:38:18 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and if we're arguing about it now, it means that "we" actually don't know what "we" meant
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1611 2014-09-03 17:38:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: did you mean something other than COPYING?
1612 2014-09-03 17:38:34 <Luke-Jr> did BlueMatt? did wumpus?
1613 2014-09-03 17:38:53 <wumpus> nope, the terms of the license matter, not how it's named
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1615 2014-09-03 17:39:04 <sipa> Luke-Jr: maybe
1616 2014-09-03 17:39:09 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/uVe3yW6K <-- /usr/portage/licenses/MIT
1617 2014-09-03 17:39:23 <wumpus> and yes, I do check COPYING for projects that I contribute to
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1619 2014-09-03 17:40:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: I dont check copying, which means I contributed under X11, and I want my name protected!!!!
1620 2014-09-03 17:40:12 <BlueMatt> 1
1621 2014-09-03 17:40:21 <Luke-Jr> "MIT" is sometimes ambiguous. "X11" is not. both are the same terms.
1622 2014-09-03 17:40:59 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: what? how do you read that st. the last sentence is not a term???
1623 2014-09-03 17:41:07 <BlueMatt> well, condition in the language of the license
1624 2014-09-03 17:41:11 <Luke-Jr> "MIT/X11", if they were held to be different, could only reasonably mean "MIT or X11", which allows us to drop one or the other if we want
1625 2014-09-03 17:41:12 <sipa> can we stop this discussion?
1626 2014-09-03 17:41:20 <sipa> it is heading nowhere
1627 2014-09-03 17:41:43 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: satoshi was confused and thought it referred to the same license
1628 2014-09-03 17:41:51 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: that last paragraph makes reference back to the actual terms, and just restates what is already in trademark law
1629 2014-09-03 17:41:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it does
1630 2014-09-03 17:42:15 <sipa> not according to wikipedia!
1631 2014-09-03 17:42:22 <sipa> the epitome of truth
1632 2014-09-03 17:42:22 <wumpus> anyhow, with all this license talk it's getting more like #oracle
1633 2014-09-03 17:42:25 <BlueMatt> not according to wikipedia, debian, or gnu
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1635 2014-09-03 17:42:35 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: GNU thinks it's the same
1636 2014-09-03 17:42:37 <wumpus> so I agree with sipa, let's cut this off, it is leading nowhere
1637 2014-09-03 17:42:53 <BlueMatt> wumpus: we cant leave it inconsistent
1638 2014-09-03 17:42:56 <sipa> if someone wants to get actual legal advice on this, i'd like to hear it
1639 2014-09-03 17:42:59 <wumpus> we can
1640 2014-09-03 17:43:07 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: GNU/FSF think it's the same license, Gentoo thinks it's the same license. I bet Debian uses "Expat" for "X11-licensed" software.
1641 2014-09-03 17:43:09 <sipa> otherwise it's just speculation
1642 2014-09-03 17:43:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's not speculation, because we are the copyright holders.
1643 2014-09-03 17:44:01 <sipa> we're not the only copyright holders
1644 2014-09-03 17:44:08 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: go read https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#X11License again
1645 2014-09-03 17:44:16 <wumpus> BlueMatt: in what case do you see this generate any problems in the real world?
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1647 2014-09-03 17:44:50 <wumpus> BlueMatt: if not, it's just useless worrying, I'm sure we have plenty of real issues too...
1648 2014-09-03 17:44:51 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: done, no surprises.
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1650 2014-09-03 17:45:09 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I could absolutely see some company saying "We use the Bitcoin Core softtware, developed by A, B, C, D, E, F, G" where G is some crazy person halfway down the list of commited authors who has a problem
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1655 2014-09-03 17:46:09 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: the last paragraph, even if it were to be taken as a term, refers only to the X Consortium, not to G
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1657 2014-09-03 17:46:32 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: there are other versions which do not refer to X explicitly
1658 2014-09-03 17:46:33 <Luke-Jr> so let's put off the topic until someone from the X Consortium wants to contribute :P
1659 2014-09-03 17:46:38 <BlueMatt> (and are often referred to as X11)
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1663 2014-09-03 17:50:40 <BlueMatt> wumpus: in that context, explictly stating "this is MIT/Expat" in the headers makes sense too, if that upsets jgarzik's "this is license change" less
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1667 2014-09-03 17:52:14 <wumpus> BlueMatt: the only change that makes sense to me is to remove the '/X11' part, it's a MIT license, for details see COPYING
1668 2014-09-03 17:52:33 <BlueMatt> sgtm
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1670 2014-09-03 17:53:05 <BlueMatt> well, I highly prefer expat, since that is much less ambiguous, but just saying MIT works too
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1675 2014-09-03 17:55:42 <wumpus> well the link http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php, which calls it.. MIT... expat is much less known, and looks much more like an attempted license change
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1677 2014-09-03 17:56:16 <wumpus> whereas removing a few characters... well, saves 4 bytes per file :)
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1685 2014-09-03 18:01:49 <jgarzik> wumpus, In the name of efficiency!  :)
1686 2014-09-03 18:02:25 <BlueMatt> hey, it saves compile time
1687 2014-09-03 18:02:39 <wumpus> woohoo!
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1752 2014-09-03 19:00:23 <jgarzik> Apparently bitcoin people do not discuss its problems
1753 2014-09-03 19:00:25 <jgarzik> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2fczus/nicolas_courtois_cryptographer_bitcoin_has_a/
1754 2014-09-03 19:00:49 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, apparently nicolas wants the foundation to hire him
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1758 2014-09-03 19:02:10 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, Nah I think it's more "ethereum > bitcoin" cheerleading.
1759 2014-09-03 19:02:49 <jgarzik> after all they hired Ralph Merkle, so they must be producing a superior system
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1762 2014-09-03 19:05:52 <gmaxwell> Nicolas Courtois is that guy who wrote that "programmed self destruction" document that has random ALLCAPS, and all kinds of wild claims.
1763 2014-09-03 19:07:42 <earlz> I'm ready for it to be released so it can be burnt by exploits lol
1764 2014-09-03 19:07:53 <gmaxwell> Bytecoin's comment on that paper were fun— https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=600436.msg6642909#msg6642909
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1766 2014-09-03 19:09:07 <earlz> I don't understand their reasoning in using a concensus based protocol, while also shipping 3 different reference clients
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1772 2014-09-03 19:13:34 <phantomcircuit> earlz, i dont expect ethereum to ever be released for exactly that reason
1773 2014-09-03 19:15:59 <gmaxwell> earlz: so long as people don't actually use but one of them things are safe.
1774 2014-09-03 19:16:18 <gmaxwell> Having more implementations can be helpful— if you're being serious about them, in finding bugs, it's only the using of them that creates risk. :)
1775 2014-09-03 19:16:44 <gmaxwell> e.g. you might discover your implementation isn't necessarily consistent with itself.
1776 2014-09-03 19:16:52 <earlz> well, I think for concencus it's especially dangerous
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1778 2014-09-03 19:17:28 <earlz> Any slight flaw in the implementation can easily make a fork. Of course, the same holds fro bitcoin, but I think mining instead of concencus makes it less of a problem
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1781 2014-09-03 19:18:11 <gmaxwell> nah, mining doesn't make it less of a problem.
1782 2014-09-03 19:18:26 <rappo> gmaxwell: hey sorry to bother, wonder if you saw my prvmsg? :)
1783 2014-09-03 19:18:28 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin's rules are absolutely regardless of what the miners think.
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1787 2014-09-03 19:25:02 <earlz> I guess it depends on implementation
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1789 2014-09-03 19:25:36 <sipa> in theory it shouldn't; in practice it might :)
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1792 2014-09-03 19:27:13 <earlz> it's all in-practice lol
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1811 2014-09-03 19:34:39 <helo> e.g. miners making a big block that chokes some client implementations?
1812 2014-09-03 19:35:01 <Arnavion> That did happen between 0.8 and 0.9
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1814 2014-09-03 19:35:13 <Arnavion> There was a fork because 0.9 allowed bigger blocks than 0.8
1815 2014-09-03 19:35:31 <earlz> I don't remember that heh
1816 2014-09-03 19:35:45 <sipa> s/bigger blocks/blocks affecting too many UTXO entries simultaneously/
1817 2014-09-03 19:35:45 <Arnavion> It was some limitation in BDB used in 0.8 which 0.9 wasn't affected by because it started using LevelDB for that purpose
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1820 2014-09-03 19:36:08 <sipa> an average max-size block wouldn't even have come close to the limit
1821 2014-09-03 19:36:25 <sipa> it had very weird transactions with many more inputs than outputs
1822 2014-09-03 19:36:57 <Guest80966> hi, is there an autobuilder? I'm wondering if master is broken just for me (configure fails immediately on linux)
1823 2014-09-03 19:37:23 <Arnavion> What's the error?
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1825 2014-09-03 19:37:49 <Arnavion> And yes there is, although it doesn't check all configure options (but since you fail at configure itself it's definitely on your end)
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1830 2014-09-03 19:38:08 <sipa> we have 2, even
1831 2014-09-03 19:38:13 <sipa> travis and pulltester
1832 2014-09-03 19:39:01 <Guest80966> Arnavion: ./configure: line 2764: syntax error near unexpected token `disable-shared'    ./configure: line 2764: `LT_INIT(disable-shared)'
1833 2014-09-03 19:39:18 <sipa> try running autogen.sh again?
1834 2014-09-03 19:39:37 <Guest80966> its a clean git checkout on a just today installed debian7 machine...
1835 2014-09-03 19:40:05 <sipa> just built master from scratch here
1836 2014-09-03 19:41:03 <sipa> ubuntu 14.04
1837 2014-09-03 19:41:03 <Arnavion> I don't even have that line in my configure
1838 2014-09-03 19:41:26 <sipa> Guest80966: do you have libtoolize installed?
1839 2014-09-03 19:41:44 <Guest80966> sipa: yes, its in my path
1840 2014-09-03 19:42:08 <Guest80966> oh, wait, that was an ssh session. No, I'll install it now...
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1842 2014-09-03 19:43:24 <Guest80966> ah, that did the trick :)
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1862 2014-09-03 20:01:28 <sipa> jgarzik: while i agree with what i think you're trying to say in that last tweet, people may interpret it as "bitcoin is digital democracy"- while the technical level at least, it's the complete opposite
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1865 2014-09-03 20:02:55 <jgarzik> sipa, it could be misunderstood if just the first phrase is read/computed, agreed.
1866 2014-09-03 20:03:14 <sipa> right
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1869 2014-09-03 20:04:23 <jgarzik> sipa, I think most will get that I'm aping "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried"
1870 2014-09-03 20:04:33 <sipa> jgarzik: yes, i assumed that
1871 2014-09-03 20:04:34 <jgarzik> rewording welcome
1872 2014-09-03 20:05:54 <Guest80966> aping that known phrase is an uphill battle since most already know that alternatives to democracy are broken...
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1908 2014-09-03 20:55:07 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i rebased against master lastnight
1909 2014-09-03 20:56:05 <phantomcircuit> sipa, fyi that disable-shared error is from not having libtool
1910 2014-09-03 20:56:13 <phantomcircuit> the actual error is that LT_INIT is undefined
1911 2014-09-03 20:56:35 <phantomcircuit> oh you figured that out
1912 2014-09-03 20:56:37 <phantomcircuit> nvm
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2007 2014-09-03 22:13:40 <kdomanski__> sipa: base_uint<256u>::CompareTo( ) is the single most often called function in the entire codebase, but it's not inlined
2008 2014-09-03 22:14:14 <sipa> kdomanski__: interesting!
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2010 2014-09-03 22:14:21 <sipa> any idea how much time is spent in it?
2011 2014-09-03 22:14:58 <kdomanski__> on my test run, 4% of all cycles
2012 2014-09-03 22:15:05 <sipa> kdomanski__: i assume most of it is in equality tests
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2014 2014-09-03 22:15:14 <sipa> in hashtable lookups
2015 2014-09-03 22:15:41 <kdomanski__> sipa: 4 million calls, the second place goes to memcpy_sse3 with 1,5 million
2016 2014-09-03 22:15:52 <kdomanski__> all those stack frames for one small loop
2017 2014-09-03 22:15:53 <sipa> kdomanski__: feel like writing an inlined operator==() ?
2018 2014-09-03 22:16:03 <kdomanski__> sipa: sure
2019 2014-09-03 22:16:49 <sipa> (or start by moving CompareTo to the header, and see whether it has a performance impact)
2020 2014-09-03 22:18:07 <kdomanski__> I don't know about reliable measurement of the impact, but profiling tells me that this one gets called more often than 'malloc' and 'free' combined
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2022 2014-09-03 22:18:48 <sipa> 4 million calls... on what work load?
2023 2014-09-03 22:19:10 <sipa> a full chain reindex?
2024 2014-09-03 22:19:21 <kdomanski__> nope, a few tens of seconds of sync
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2026 2014-09-03 22:20:01 <sipa> that's pretty crazy
2027 2014-09-03 22:20:06 <kdomanski__> yup
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2030 2014-09-03 22:23:24 <sipa> hmm, things like mapWallet and the mempool have std::map indices with uint256's as key
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2033 2014-09-03 22:25:12 <sipa> kdomanski__: can you determine how many is equality/inequality, and how many is actual less/greater then?
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2036 2014-09-03 22:27:47 <kdomanski__> sipa: that might depend on the context where CompareTo is used, I'll take a look - there's 20-something callers
2037 2014-09-03 22:28:20 <sipa> in the coins cache it should just be equality
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2039 2014-09-03 22:28:27 <kdomanski__> sipa: if you can make any sense of it: http://domanski.co/screen9.png
2040 2014-09-03 22:28:43 <kdomanski__> left is all functions ordered by calls descending
2041 2014-09-03 22:28:53 <kdomanski__> right is all callers of CompareTo
2042 2014-09-03 22:29:26 kdomanski__ is now known as kdomanski
2043 2014-09-03 22:29:59 <sipa> kdomanski: yup; very interesting!
2044 2014-09-03 22:30:40 <sipa> i believe that the first 2 are in fact mapBlockIndex
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2046 2014-09-03 22:31:00 <gmaxwell> kdomanski: careful with kcachegrind, the timing estimates of very approximate because its branch predictor is braindead compared to current cpus.
2047 2014-09-03 22:31:28 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2048 2014-09-03 22:31:30 <sipa> ah
2049 2014-09-03 22:31:36 projectile has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2050 2014-09-03 22:31:44 <sipa> well, if anything, just the call counts are interesting
2051 2014-09-03 22:31:45 <gmaxwell> I'd noticed mapblockindex being hit a lot, which was why I tried changing it to an unordered_map— though it didn't seem to help a lot, though I was mostly interested in memory usage.
2052 2014-09-03 22:32:08 <kdomanski> gmaxwell: well it does get confused by timing with cyclic calls, but actual number of calls should be fine
2053 2014-09-03 22:32:13 <gmaxwell> Right.
2054 2014-09-03 22:32:24 <gmaxwell> It also may be inlined at O3... our performance is noticably higher w/ O3.
2055 2014-09-03 22:32:39 <sipa> 1/8 of the uint256 comparisons is done in... GetLastCheckPoint()? :o
2056 2014-09-03 22:33:17 <sipa> let's get rid of checkpoints!
2057 2014-09-03 22:33:58 netg_ has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev)
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2063 2014-09-03 22:41:19 kdomanski_ has joined
2064 2014-09-03 22:41:35 <kdomanski_> ah the flaky mobile internet :/
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2071 2014-09-03 22:44:09 <gmaxwell> can the uint256 compare to be just converted to a memcmp?
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2073 2014-09-03 22:45:00 <kdomanski> nope, it gives -1, 0 or 1 based on the actual value relation
2074 2014-09-03 22:45:25 <sipa> for equality/inequality, it could
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2076 2014-09-03 22:45:33 <sipa> even an inlined one
2077 2014-09-03 22:45:40 <kdomanski> sure
2078 2014-09-03 22:45:46 <sipa> but that will only help for the unordered_map cases, not the std::map ones
2079 2014-09-03 22:45:55 <sipa> (which may be another argument in favor of those...)
2080 2014-09-03 22:46:04 <kdomanski> well, one just has to grep for all the callers
2081 2014-09-03 22:46:14 <sipa> "grep"
2082 2014-09-03 22:46:22 <sipa> through several layers of templates?
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2086 2014-09-03 22:48:19 <gmaxwell> memcmp returns an ordering, do we actually ever care about numerically ordering uint256s !?
2087 2014-09-03 22:48:28 <kdomanski> I'm seriously reassessing the merit of that last sentence
2088 2014-09-03 22:48:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, for PoW checks
2089 2014-09-03 22:49:02 <kdomanski> sipa: yes, grep
2090 2014-09-03 22:49:18 <gmaxwell> on indeed. Nowhere else I think. And never should we care about how things are ordered in the rb tree.
2091 2014-09-03 22:49:28 <kdomanski> sipa: there's no way for std::whatever to use CompareTo directly
2092 2014-09-03 22:49:36 <kdomanski> sipa: but check this out
2093 2014-09-03 22:49:39 <sipa> kdomanski: fair enough
2094 2014-09-03 22:49:51 <kdomanski> src/base58.h:    bool operator==(const CBase58Data& b58) const { return CompareTo(b58) == 0; }
2095 2014-09-03 22:49:53 <kdomanski> src/base58.h:    bool operator<=(const CBase58Data& b58) const { return CompareTo(b58) <= 0; }
2096 2014-09-03 22:49:54 <kdomanski> src/base58.h:    bool operator>=(const CBase58Data& b58) const { return CompareTo(b58) >= 0; }
2097 2014-09-03 22:49:56 <kdomanski> src/base58.h:    bool operator< (const CBase58Data& b58) const { return CompareTo(b58) <  0; }
2098 2014-09-03 22:49:57 <kdomanski> src/base58.h:    bool operator> (const CBase58Data& b58) const { return CompareTo(b58) >  0; }
2099 2014-09-03 22:50:08 <sipa> kdomanski: those should be called ~0 times during normal sync
2100 2014-09-03 22:50:23 <gmaxwell> thats base58 but we do the same thing for uint256.
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2102 2014-09-03 22:50:37 <kdomanski> yup
2103 2014-09-03 22:50:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: i've previously considered splitting uint256 into a base "opaque 32 byte array" structure, and a derived uint256 with the full arithmetic meaning
2104 2014-09-03 22:50:40 <kdomanski> src/uint256.h:    friend inline bool operator==(const base_uint& a, const base_uint& b) { return a.CompareTo(b) == 0; }
2105 2014-09-03 22:50:41 <kdomanski> src/uint256.h:    friend inline bool operator!=(const base_uint& a, const base_uint& b) { return a.CompareTo(b) != 0; }
2106 2014-09-03 22:50:43 <kdomanski> src/uint256.h:    friend inline bool operator>(const base_uint& a, const base_uint& b) { return a.CompareTo(b) > 0; }
2107 2014-09-03 22:50:44 <kdomanski> src/uint256.h:    friend inline bool operator<(const base_uint& a, const base_uint& b) { return a.CompareTo(b) < 0; }
2108 2014-09-03 22:50:46 <kdomanski> src/uint256.h:    friend inline bool operator>=(const base_uint& a, const base_uint& b) { return a.CompareTo(b) >= 0; }
2109 2014-09-03 22:50:47 <kdomanski> src/uint256.h:    friend inline bool operator<=(const base_uint& a, const base_uint& b) { return a.CompareTo(b) <= 0; }
2110 2014-09-03 22:50:56 <sipa> kdomanski: yes, i'm well aware; i wrote those :)
2111 2014-09-03 22:51:08 <kdomanski> sipa: shame on you good sir!
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2114 2014-09-03 22:51:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, it should be an opaque 32 byte array. I wonder if it would be better if it we ordered differently so that block hashes shortcutted comparisons faster.
2115 2014-09-03 22:51:55 <jrick> gmaxwell: if you do that you will be my hero. everytime I see uint256_t where ints aren't needed I rage
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2117 2014-09-03 22:52:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: yup, makes sense
2118 2014-09-03 22:52:14 <gmaxwell> jrick: I don't think we ever use uint256 where an int could work.
2119 2014-09-03 22:52:29 <jrick> pow?
2120 2014-09-03 22:52:44 <gmaxwell> an int absolutely cannot work for pow.
2121 2014-09-03 22:52:46 <sipa> jrick: i think gmaxwell interprets 'int' as 'signed 32 bit integer'
2122 2014-09-03 22:52:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think jrick means 'integer' in the math sense
2123 2014-09-03 22:53:00 <jrick> yeah
2124 2014-09-03 22:53:41 <gmaxwell> Ah. Well, I still don't understand what you think POW should be doing.
2125 2014-09-03 22:53:53 <sipa> he thinks it should be using uint256
2126 2014-09-03 22:54:05 <sipa> but pretty much every other case could use 32-byte opaque arrays
2127 2014-09-03 22:54:27 <jrick> should is a strong word
2128 2014-09-03 22:54:37 <jrick> but that's the only place where it might make sense
2129 2014-09-03 22:54:42 <gmaxwell> ah! Yes, agreed.
2130 2014-09-03 22:55:07 <sipa> for chainwork we definitely need it (or some bignum at least)
2131 2014-09-03 22:55:16 <gmaxwell> jrick: I mean you can go and inline the same arithemetic since its the only place in the code.. but pow has to do the calculation it does.
2132 2014-09-03 22:55:26 <jrick> yeah
2133 2014-09-03 22:55:34 <gmaxwell> And yes, we need similar in chainwork.
2134 2014-09-03 22:55:38 <sipa> target adjustment, indeed
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2136 2014-09-03 22:55:50 <jrick> and that would be better since it could be machine endianness independant
2137 2014-09-03 22:56:09 <sipa> PoW itself could probably use some fancy directly-compare-with-nBits implementation, but that's ugly
2138 2014-09-03 22:56:15 drArtemis has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2140 2014-09-03 22:56:47 <gmaxwell> jrick: None of this really has anything to do with endianness. Thats a seralization question.
2141 2014-09-03 22:57:02 <kdomanski> btw base_uint<256u>::operator>>= gets called a lot too, should that happen in sync?
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2145 2014-09-03 22:57:17 <sipa> kdomanski: inside operator/= it's called many times
2146 2014-09-03 22:57:38 <kdomanski> I see
2147 2014-09-03 22:57:39 <gmaxwell> kdomanski: used for retargeting.
2148 2014-09-03 22:57:55 <gmaxwell> Would get called less if we'd used the CLZ implementation of divison there. :P
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2150 2014-09-03 22:58:07 <jrick> gmaxwell: interpreting a byte sequence as an integer doesn't have anything to do with endianness?
2151 2014-09-03 22:58:42 <gmaxwell> jrick: when it actually is an integer! (as in POW, chainwork, retargeting)
2152 2014-09-03 22:58:50 KillYourTV has joined
2153 2014-09-03 22:58:57 <sipa> you guys are really talking past each other; as far as i can see you're both right :)
2154 2014-09-03 22:59:04 <jrick> hah
2155 2014-09-03 22:59:31 <gmaxwell> K.
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2158 2014-09-03 23:00:07 <sipa> the point i guess is that if we'd use an opaque256 datastructure instead of uint256, with operator< etc, the implementation of those operators could be allowed to be platform-dependent
2159 2014-09-03 23:00:28 <sipa> so you could use memcmp everywhere
2160 2014-09-03 23:00:39 <sipa> and indeed, that is because you're bypassing the interpretation as an integer
2161 2014-09-03 23:00:50 <jrick> std::array<byte, 32> ?
2162 2014-09-03 23:00:58 <jrick> but I guess that's c++11
2163 2014-09-03 23:01:05 <jrick> er char not byte
2164 2014-09-03 23:01:08 <gmaxwell> 0_o
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2166 2014-09-03 23:01:17 <sipa> well... char[32] :p
2167 2014-09-03 23:01:24 <gmaxwell> yea.
2168 2014-09-03 23:02:16 <gmaxwell> unsigned char[32] to be pedantic. :P
2169 2014-09-03 23:02:22 <jrick> yes
2170 2014-09-03 23:02:23 <sipa> uint8_t[32
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2172 2014-09-03 23:02:28 <sipa> ]
2173 2014-09-03 23:02:35 <kdomanski> sipa: I was about to say just that
2174 2014-09-03 23:02:38 <gmaxwell> yea, don't want to fail to work on TMS320c55.
2175 2014-09-03 23:02:45 * sipa googles
2176 2014-09-03 23:02:58 <gmaxwell> (I'm very proud that opus runs on platforms where char is 16 bits :))
2177 2014-09-03 23:03:08 <sipa> You're a sick human being.
2178 2014-09-03 23:04:44 <gmaxwell> on c55 DSPs most everything is 16 bits, except it has a long long that is 32 bits... which is only fast for some operations.
2179 2014-09-03 23:05:12 <gmaxwell> and since char is 16 bits, sizeof works in ways you might not expect.
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2182 2014-09-03 23:05:29 <kdomanski> does gcc automagically use SIMD instructions?
2183 2014-09-03 23:05:50 <gmaxwell> (and it has a 40 bit long long...)
2184 2014-09-03 23:06:00 <jrick> lol what?
2185 2014-09-03 23:06:01 <jaakkos_> kdomanski: if -O level is high enough, yes
2186 2014-09-03 23:06:09 DougieBot5000 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2187 2014-09-03 23:06:10 <sipa> -O42
2188 2014-09-03 23:06:12 ak__ has joined
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2190 2014-09-03 23:06:25 <gmaxwell> kdomanski: yes, when arch supports it (e.g. x86_64) in builtins, and in general code in O3 or better.
2191 2014-09-03 23:06:55 <jaakkos_> kdomanski: you could use eg. -ftree-vectorizer-verbose to see if it's doing something
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2193 2014-09-03 23:07:40 <gmaxwell> jaakkos_: things like memcpy / memcmp etc. get replaced by builtins which may be vectorized even without -ftree-vectorizer-verbose showing anything.
2194 2014-09-03 23:08:09 <gmaxwell> (under some conditions, e.g. the memcmp builtin requires the size to be known statically)
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2196 2014-09-03 23:08:52 <kdomanski> gmaxwell: sure, but I'm interested in cases where for example a comparison is iterated in a loop
2197 2014-09-03 23:09:44 <kdomanski> jaakkos_: googling that flag was super-informative, thanks
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2199 2014-09-03 23:10:29 <gmaxwell> kdomanski: the simd code generated by -ftree-vectorizer is only so so much of the time. If there is a true hostspot where were comparing many things in a loop, we might want to consider doing something else.
2200 2014-09-03 23:11:04 <gmaxwell> (basically it often manages to get a 4x speedup, and then lose half of it due to register mismanagement)
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2204 2014-09-03 23:11:58 <kdomanski> gmaxwell: right now I'll be happy with 100k stack frames per second less by inlining CompileTo
2205 2014-09-03 23:12:37 <kdomanski> s/CompileTo/CompareTo/
2206 2014-09-03 23:13:00 <gmaxwell> Yea, inlining _compile_to might have poor icache effects.
2207 2014-09-03 23:14:04 <kdomanski> it woud probably be extremely funny had I studied CS
2208 2014-09-03 23:14:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: you really want _compile_to to be constexpr
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2213 2014-09-03 23:25:09 <kdomanski_> woosh, the calls to CompareTo magically disappeared from the next run
2214 2014-09-03 23:25:36 <kdomanski_> the comparisons still happen though
2215 2014-09-03 23:25:42 <sipa> right
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2219 2014-09-03 23:28:59 <kdomanski_> I wonder what kind of disaster we're not seeing because of inlining already being done
2220 2014-09-03 23:29:41 <sipa> compile with -O1 or so?
2221 2014-09-03 23:29:54 <kdomanski_> obviously
2222 2014-09-03 23:30:09 <gmaxwell> yea, I've done this, you'll cry.
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2224 2014-09-03 23:30:32 <gmaxwell> well it's better now. But there is all kinds of horrible stupidity being done by the stl.
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2227 2014-09-03 23:31:49 <sipa> i expect you'll see horrendous amounts of serialization code
2228 2014-09-03 23:32:08 <sipa> ... which is hopefully mostly optimized away in actual release binary code
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2230 2014-09-03 23:33:03 <phantomcircuit> yes do not try and run with anything less than -O1
2231 2014-09-03 23:33:14 <phantomcircuit> i benchmarked in -O0 and it's just comical
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2233 2014-09-03 23:33:28 <phantomcircuit> most of the time is spent calculating whether the block version is correct
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2240 2014-09-03 23:36:10 <[lewellyn]> it's been at the destination sign reading "Nowhere" for a while, sipa. :P
2241 2014-09-03 23:37:17 <[lewellyn]> Luke-Jr: if the problem is debian listing as expat, changing it to "X11" won't help. per http://www.debian.org/legal/licenses/ it's "Expat/MIT-style licenses"
2242 2014-09-03 23:37:27 <uiop> kdomanski_: loop unswitching (-funswitch-loops) moves a (loop-invariant) branch outside the loop by making two specialized copies of loop and doing the test once
2243 2014-09-03 23:37:34 iugfhvybu has joined
2244 2014-09-03 23:37:40 <uiop> kdomanski_: (RE: "<kdomanski> gmaxwell: sure, but I'm interested in cases where for example a comparison is iterated in a loop")
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2250 2014-09-03 23:40:46 <kdomanski_> uiop: neat
2251 2014-09-03 23:41:01 <[lewellyn]> how does one (without debian installed) see what debian classifies a package's license as?
2252 2014-09-03 23:41:04 <[lewellyn]> packages.debian.org doesn't seem to show it.
2253 2014-09-03 23:41:24 <[lewellyn]> nor does packages.qa.debian.org
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2257 2014-09-03 23:42:51 <uiop> kdomanski_: (-funswitch-loops is included in -O3)
2258 2014-09-03 23:43:01 <uiop> as is -ftree-vectorize
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2263 2014-09-03 23:52:55 <kdomanski_> huh, CompareTo works pretty much identically to memcmp -.-'
2264 2014-09-03 23:56:53 <sipa> is that surprising?
2265 2014-09-03 23:57:02 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2266 2014-09-03 23:57:08 <sipa> the question is whether the builtin memcmp isn't faster than CompareTo
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2269 2014-09-03 23:57:49 <kdomanski_> I'd be suprised if it was slower
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2272 2014-09-03 23:59:05 <kdomanski_> sipa: does memcmp work byte-by-byte or use whole ints?
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2274 2014-09-03 23:59:41 <sipa> kdomanski_: i'm sure it will depend on the number of bytes being compared
2275 2014-09-03 23:59:55 <sipa> test it :)
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