1 2014-09-04 00:00:09 nsh has quit (Changing host)
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3 2014-09-04 00:00:29 <uiop> (i haven't looked at code of CompareTo) i'd be surprised if a function reducible to memcmp is faster than __builtin_memcmp (unless it's written directly using human-creativity-level sse>=3)
4 2014-09-04 00:01:29 <kdomanski_> sipa: unfortunately, I'm too lazy
5 2014-09-04 00:01:59 <sipa> good
6 2014-09-04 00:02:19 <uiop> if this is a i-care-enough-to-handwrite-asm function, i'd start by looking at the arch-specific implems of mem{cpy,cmp}/etc in glibc
7 2014-09-04 00:02:47 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: I don't see a problem at all.
8 2014-09-04 00:02:58 <sipa> uiop: nope; a few % gain at the most
9 2014-09-04 00:03:13 <Luke-Jr> uiop: glibc memcpy is broken on Haswell ;p
10 2014-09-04 00:04:46 <kdomanski_> uiop: I think the time would be much better spent paying off the technical debt in other weird places of this codebase, which are many ;]
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12 2014-09-04 00:06:12 <uiop> Luke-Jr: if you're not passing it overlapping memory, https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/describecomponents.cgi?product=glibc :)
13 2014-09-04 00:07:04 <Luke-Jr> uiop: No, it segfaults 100% of the time
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15 2014-09-04 00:07:53 <Luke-Jr> uiop: I'd report it, but I don't really have time to investigate *why*
16 2014-09-04 00:08:18 <Luke-Jr> I presume the fact that nobody else has reported it means it only affects x86_32
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18 2014-09-04 00:08:40 <uiop> Luke-Jr: i'd be very surprised if this is a glibc bug
19 2014-09-04 00:08:46 <Luke-Jr> (although IIRC I did see a Qt bugreport on a similar nature)
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21 2014-09-04 00:09:02 <Luke-Jr> uiop: it's trying to use SSSE3 when it segfaults
22 2014-09-04 00:09:05 <uiop> Luke-Jr: oh, are you sure it wasn't an "illegal instruction" bug
23 2014-09-04 00:09:11 <Luke-Jr> yes
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25 2014-09-04 00:09:22 <Luke-Jr> either Haswell's SSSE3 is broken, or glibc is using it in an unsupported way
26 2014-09-04 00:09:27 <Luke-Jr> (maybe unaligned?)
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29 2014-09-04 00:10:40 <Luke-Jr> ⦠or there's some obscure POSIX rule requiring memcpy to be aligned, but I find that unlikely O.o\
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31 2014-09-04 00:11:15 <uiop> ah, possibly (movdqa/etc assume aligned, but can't recall eventual signal linux translates that into). but not sure how that would happen differently on i386 than x86_64
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35 2014-09-04 00:11:57 <uiop> probably some combination-of-code-on-a-multiarch-system-resulting-in-ridiculousness-segfault or something
36 2014-09-04 00:12:10 <Luke-Jr> uiop: I suspect the stack is "more" aligned on x86_64 ABI
37 2014-09-04 00:12:18 <Luke-Jr> my system isn't multiarch
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39 2014-09-04 00:12:30 <Luke-Jr> well, except the kernel - that's 64-bit
40 2014-09-04 00:12:49 <uiop> that sounds like a not un-plausible theory
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42 2014-09-04 00:13:09 <sipa> kdomanski_: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/tree/fastmap
43 2014-09-04 00:13:26 <sipa> kdomanski_: replaces mapBlockIndex with an unordered map, and uses memcmp for equality/inequality
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45 2014-09-04 00:14:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: sorry, I should have just given you my patch for that, would have saved you some typing in changing all those typedefs.
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47 2014-09-04 00:15:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's 2am; what else would i be doing now? :p
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51 2014-09-04 00:16:40 <jrick> I thought std::unordered_map was a thing? why use boost?
52 2014-09-04 00:16:54 <sipa> jrick: c++11
53 2014-09-04 00:16:55 <gmaxwell> jrick: it's a C++11 (or 14?) thing.
54 2014-09-04 00:16:59 <jrick> oh
55 2014-09-04 00:17:15 <gmaxwell> the boost thing is functionally equal, so it can be changed directly when the codebase someday becomes C++11.
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59 2014-09-04 00:17:33 <sipa> the boost implementation was even changed to the std one, once it was standardized
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67 2014-09-04 00:18:06 <jrick> libstdc++?
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96 2014-09-04 00:18:32 <sipa> libstdc++ is GCC's implementation of the C++ standard library
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99 2014-09-04 00:18:42 <jrick> right
100 2014-09-04 00:18:45 <sipa> or is it apple's?
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102 2014-09-04 00:18:53 <jrick> that's libc++ iirc
103 2014-09-04 00:19:00 <sipa> right
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109 2014-09-04 00:20:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, didn't you say the unordered map didn't really help?
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111 2014-09-04 00:20:56 <sipa> not for memory usage; and likely not much for performance either
112 2014-09-04 00:21:03 <sipa> but hey; the code becomes cleaner too
113 2014-09-04 00:21:16 <gmaxwell> You can .reserve now too.
114 2014-09-04 00:22:02 <sipa> won't do that much, i think
115 2014-09-04 00:22:11 <gmaxwell> didn't.
116 2014-09-04 00:22:35 <sipa> as that only allocates the actual hashmap, not the actual entries (which are independently allocated)
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118 2014-09-04 00:22:47 <sipa> and certainly not the CBlockIndex objects
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120 2014-09-04 00:23:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: I thought about making mapBlockIndex an unordered map of CBlockIndex instead of CBlockIndex* (thus avoiding a bunch of randomly timed allocations, perhaps) but it required too many changes to justify for just an expirement.
121 2014-09-04 00:23:29 <gmaxwell> ah, scratch the "avoiding" part too then I guess!
122 2014-09-04 00:23:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: i've been wanting to do that too; if anything, it would save us a few MB of malloc overhead
123 2014-09-04 00:23:36 <kdomanski_> sipa: I'd change <string.h> to <cstring> and use memcpy on operator{<,>,>=} as well
124 2014-09-04 00:23:42 <sipa> kdomanski_: can't
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126 2014-09-04 00:23:49 <kdomanski_> huh?
127 2014-09-04 00:23:52 <gmaxwell> sipa: yep. Also fragmentation.
128 2014-09-04 00:24:06 <kdomanski_> sipa: which part?
129 2014-09-04 00:24:17 <sipa> kdomanski_: memcmp does "big endian" comparison
130 2014-09-04 00:24:31 <gmaxwell> kdomanski_: memcmp is byte oritended. The numbers are LE bigints.
131 2014-09-04 00:24:38 <sipa> kdomanski_: uint256's operator< _must_ obey to mathematical integer ordering for PoW
132 2014-09-04 00:24:40 <gmaxwell> for POW the order matters greatly.
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134 2014-09-04 00:24:59 <kdomanski_> sipa: oh, I thought they were BE
135 2014-09-04 00:25:08 <sipa> kdomanski_: x86 is LE
136 2014-09-04 00:25:32 <sipa> and the uint32_t inside uint256 are also LE ordered
137 2014-09-04 00:25:44 <gmaxwell> I suppose we could swizzle the values in memory so memcmp worked.
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139 2014-09-04 00:26:12 <sipa> that would break the ability to do fast arithmetic
140 2014-09-04 00:26:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, plz2not
141 2014-09-04 00:26:24 <phantomcircuit> :P
142 2014-09-04 00:27:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: but we don't do any arithmetic on them outside of POW checking, IIRC.
143 2014-09-04 00:27:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: i believe that
144 2014-09-04 00:27:48 <sipa> actually no; we also use it for comparing chainwork
145 2014-09-04 00:27:55 <kdomanski_> gmaxwell: I don't think the benefit is worth messing with it
146 2014-09-04 00:28:02 <gmaxwell> chainwork compares to itself, not block hashes.
147 2014-09-04 00:28:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: true, but chainwork also needs arithmetic compatible with that comparison
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149 2014-09-04 00:29:13 <gmaxwell> true enough.
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152 2014-09-04 00:32:21 <sipa> kdomanski_: github's input sanitization is funny
153 2014-09-04 00:32:34 <sipa> i get an email from you with "How about instead?"
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155 2014-09-04 00:35:13 <kdomanski_> that's because i wrote "How about <cstring> instead?" instead of "How about \<cstring> instead?"
156 2014-09-04 00:35:34 <sipa> ah, you actually can escape it?
157 2014-09-04 00:35:38 <kdomanski_> then I edited
158 2014-09-04 00:35:40 <teward> sipa, yeah you can
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162 2014-09-04 00:37:29 <uiop> if you guys are talking about comparing arrays of uint256's, that would be an excellent candidate for custom sse. <sketch>could use pcmpgtX/similar, movmaskY, then something-appropriate</sketch>
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164 2014-09-04 00:38:11 <uiop> could completely eliminate all branches (other than the loop backedge)
165 2014-09-04 00:38:45 <gmaxwell> I don't think we ever actually do that.
166 2014-09-04 00:38:48 <uiop> *that is, eliminate the "if(..) break;" equivalent part of loop
167 2014-09-04 00:38:59 <uiop> gmaxwell: ah, too bad
168 2014-09-04 00:40:14 <uiop> **err, you could elim *some* branch, though i can't quite pin down a generic all-applicable way to describe which
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173 2014-09-04 00:43:06 <uiop> ***oh, right. scratch that. the gain wouldn't be elim of a branch (you can already only have one in this case), what you would gain would be doing N=4 (or 2 or 8, depending) comparisons in parallel, thus needing current_num_iterations/N to do comparison (which gmaxwell points out, you don't actually do anyways, so this is just me being anal :)
174 2014-09-04 00:43:59 <uiop> (so roughly an Nx speedup)
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176 2014-09-04 00:46:12 <uiop> this sort of ninja sse comparison code is currently beyond gcc's abilities (which is not that surprising actually, since to achieve it gcc would need to transform NON-sse-like-branchless-comparison-code into it, which seems pretty nontrivial, even at second or third glance)
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180 2014-09-04 00:51:03 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, github's caching is overly aggressive
181 2014-09-04 00:51:19 <phantomcircuit> afaict they blindly set cache timeout values on assets which should be using etags
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221 2014-09-04 01:40:47 <lewellyn> screw noriega. mussolini was more effective.
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224 2014-09-04 01:42:25 <lewellyn> Luke-Jr: problem with what?
225 2014-09-04 01:42:42 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: anything around the licensing
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262 2014-09-04 02:24:15 <lewellyn> Luke-Jr: what's the reference for that highlight? i lack context?
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389 2014-09-04 05:36:23 <earlz> If you have a signed transaction.. Will the hash of the transaction be the same in block X, if it later is orphaned and appears in block Y?
390 2014-09-04 05:38:12 <Luke-Jr> not necessarily
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392 2014-09-04 05:38:23 <Luke-Jr> it might not be the same in block X
393 2014-09-04 05:38:39 <earlz> Well, I mean is it /possible/ for the hash to be the same
394 2014-09-04 05:39:13 <Luke-Jr> sure
395 2014-09-04 05:39:16 <Luke-Jr> often is
396 2014-09-04 05:39:47 <earlz> ok.. I still don't completely understand transaction malleability heh
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398 2014-09-04 05:40:24 <Luke-Jr> earlz: basically any transaction can be modified without making it invalid, so long as the recipients remain the same
399 2014-09-04 05:40:43 <Luke-Jr> earlz: mining it just locks it to a specific hash in that blockchain
400 2014-09-04 05:41:45 <earlz> so what exactly is signed then
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402 2014-09-04 05:43:45 <gmaxwell> earlz: on a normal transaction the whole transaction is signed, but obviously the signature itself cannot be signed.
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405 2014-09-04 05:47:38 <earlz> but how would the signature be modified? Like what can be changed in a transaction while keeping the singature valid?
406 2014-09-04 05:49:10 <Luke-Jr> earlz: think numbers. add leading zeros.
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408 2014-09-04 05:49:18 <Luke-Jr> that's one obvious way
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410 2014-09-04 05:53:46 <earlz> mmm..
411 2014-09-04 05:54:01 <earlz> Everything has to keep the same semantics then at least
412 2014-09-04 05:54:09 <gmaxwell> yes, does exactly the same thing.
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414 2014-09-04 05:57:22 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin would be so much easier if we just used the hash of the scriptPubKey as the input :P
415 2014-09-04 05:57:26 <Luke-Jr> (and txid)
416 2014-09-04 05:59:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: can't prevent duplicate transaction ids if you do that.
417 2014-09-04 05:59:48 ionstorm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
418 2014-09-04 05:59:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: prevent why? ;)
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420 2014-09-04 06:00:20 <Luke-Jr> I guess there's some DoSes that might be possible
421 2014-09-04 06:00:20 <gmaxwell> man, and some people think mutability screws up accounting, ... good luck with duplicate txids!
422 2014-09-04 06:00:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no duplicate txids if addresses are used once ;)
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623 2014-09-04 09:30:25 <aphorise> */*-
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634 2014-09-04 09:41:43 <fcw> Hello. Somebody can tell me where I can put a bugreport for Bitcoin Core 0.9.2.1?
635 2014-09-04 09:42:15 <fcw> It is not a severe bug, only a annoying bug.
636 2014-09-04 09:42:30 <gmaxwell> fcw: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/
637 2014-09-04 09:42:42 <fcw> Thank
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878 2014-09-04 14:05:50 <jgarzik> http://rocksdb.org/
879 2014-09-04 14:06:11 <jgarzik> Supposedly this is faster than leveldb, for datasets that do not fit 100% in memory
880 2014-09-04 14:06:46 <jgarzik> I imagine most of our database fits in page cache...
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885 2014-09-04 14:11:27 <kinlo> created by facebook, I assume they know what they are talking about....
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984 2014-09-04 15:02:26 <wumpus> jgarzik: bitcoin's database usage is pretty atypical in that everything that is read is usually written too, and it has large batches... but if it's not too hard to plug it in, it'd be worth a benchmark of course
985 2014-09-04 15:03:59 <jgarzik> wumpus, "everything that is read is usually writte too" -- can you elaborate?
986 2014-09-04 15:04:36 <wumpus> well in the utxo set, an entry is read and usually marked as spent and written again
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990 2014-09-04 15:05:17 <jgarzik> wumpus, sure, but the database is hit (read) a few times to determine spendability, before that write
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994 2014-09-04 15:06:34 <wumpus> but entries that are read before eventually being written again are rare
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996 2014-09-04 15:07:06 <wumpus> of course it is read first, then it is cached, and eventually flushed back in a write
997 2014-09-04 15:07:21 <sipa> there are 3 layers: disk, leveldb's cache, application cache
998 2014-09-04 15:07:33 <wumpus> the block database has different behavior, but is much less interesting here
999 2014-09-04 15:08:08 <sipa> the block database is write-only
1000 2014-09-04 15:08:18 <sipa> except when you use txindex
1001 2014-09-04 15:08:23 <wumpus> right
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1006 2014-09-04 15:10:32 <wumpus> but entries that are read before eventually being written again are rare <- ehh, I mean, entries that are read, but *not* written back eventually
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1009 2014-09-04 15:11:03 <sipa> inputs for mempool transactions that don't confirm
1010 2014-09-04 15:11:06 <wumpus> this is also the mistake I made when implementing a LRU read cache in CCoinsView.... a read cache is useless
1011 2014-09-04 15:11:16 <sipa> wumpus: no, it's not useless
1012 2014-09-04 15:11:17 <wumpus> (well, mostly)
1013 2014-09-04 15:11:25 <sipa> you just don't see its effect in a reindex test
1014 2014-09-04 15:11:33 <sipa> but it's certainly relevant for a block relay speed test
1015 2014-09-04 15:11:57 <sipa> which is arguably more important for the network, actually - just harder to benchmark
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1017 2014-09-04 15:12:09 <wumpus> well I mean at the application level; the disk cache at the OS level and the cache at the DB level takes care there too
1018 2014-09-04 15:12:54 <sipa> if it has to hit (spinning) disk, you lose 10ms at least
1019 2014-09-04 15:12:56 <wumpus> even for block relay I'm not so sure; we'll have seen all those transactions previously, so they'll probably be still in the write cache
1020 2014-09-04 15:13:26 <wumpus> (as it's implemented right now everything ends up in the write cache)
1021 2014-09-04 15:13:40 <sipa> well yes, there only exists one cache
1022 2014-09-04 15:13:49 <sipa> but as you implemented it, those would be in the read cache
1023 2014-09-04 15:13:59 <wumpus> anyhow, it may be that it would have helped in some other benchmark
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1027 2014-09-04 15:15:54 <wumpus> what bothered me about the current implementation is that if you read an utxo entry just to look at it, it is still written back in the next flush, even if it didn't change... but it seems pretty ok for the behavior we really have
1028 2014-09-04 15:16:26 <wumpus> (something like a getutxo P2P command may change that, though... thinking about it)
1029 2014-09-04 15:16:51 pen has joined
1030 2014-09-04 15:16:54 <sipa> wumpus: #4834 fixes that too (in a simpler way), but i don't understand why it fails pulltester
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1037 2014-09-04 15:22:33 <wumpus> not sure it's much simpler than what I did :)
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1039 2014-09-04 15:23:08 <sipa> oh, i don't mean the code; it does more too (removing spent unwritten entries from the cache)
1040 2014-09-04 15:23:15 <wumpus> can't see anything obviously wrong with it though
1041 2014-09-04 15:23:26 <sipa> but conceptually, just keeping a dirty flag rather than having two independent caches
1042 2014-09-04 15:25:01 <wumpus> makes sense as long as the expiration policy for either is the same
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1044 2014-09-04 15:26:04 <sipa> heh; it's still "dump everything when grown too large" - i'm just trying to optimize memory usage here, not performance
1045 2014-09-04 15:26:16 <sipa> s/dump/drop/
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1047 2014-09-04 15:26:52 <wumpus> unknown location(0): fatal error in "CreateNewBlock_validity": memory access violation at address: 0xffffffe1: no mapping at fault address .. it's not even a "normal" null derefence
1048 2014-09-04 15:27:36 <sipa> that looks like a 32-bit address
1049 2014-09-04 15:28:18 <hearn> subtraction from null to find metadata before the block, perhaps
1050 2014-09-04 15:28:54 <wumpus> or a dangling pointer, or use-after-free, ... C++ sucks :p
1051 2014-09-04 15:29:31 Soligor has joined
1052 2014-09-04 15:29:31 <hearn> have you ever considered switching memory management to use the boehm gc?
1053 2014-09-04 15:29:40 <wumpus> no
1054 2014-09-04 15:29:43 <hearn> it's something i was thinking about lately as a way to reduce risk of changes.
1055 2014-09-04 15:29:54 <hearn> i.e. eliminate memory leaks and double frees, use after frees
1056 2014-09-04 15:30:02 <sipa> i think we've had surprisingly few memory related problems in bitcoind, actually
1057 2014-09-04 15:30:09 <sipa> compared to my experience with C projects before
1058 2014-09-04 15:30:11 <wumpus> sipa: agreed
1059 2014-09-04 15:30:13 <hearn> yes because the way satoshi wrote it, there's hardly any dynamic memory allocation
1060 2014-09-04 15:30:18 <hearn> it's all RAII
1061 2014-09-04 15:30:29 <hearn> unfortunately as the code becomes more optimised and multi-threaded that becomes harder to maintain.
1062 2014-09-04 15:30:38 <wumpus> bitcoind has less strange memory issues than any C/C++ project I've worked on before, so at least that's on the right track
1063 2014-09-04 15:30:39 <hearn> introducing threads, caches, etc, all introduce the risk of problems.
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1065 2014-09-04 15:31:30 <hearn> the good thing is, because it's written in that "modern" c++ style , load on a GCd heap would be very low
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1067 2014-09-04 15:31:58 <wumpus> I really wouldn't want to add a dependency on a GC to bitcoind
1068 2014-09-04 15:32:00 <sipa> i don't like GCs because they introduce runtime indeterminism
1069 2014-09-04 15:32:11 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1070 2014-09-04 15:32:13 <hearn> indeterminism? you mean in terms of time?
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1072 2014-09-04 15:32:26 <timothy> garbage collectors are useless if you know how to code :)
1073 2014-09-04 15:32:35 <sipa> latency when the GC runs, memory spikes, ...
1074 2014-09-04 15:32:43 <wumpus> if we go that far, I'd rather just switch to a garbage collected language like Java or Go :-)
1075 2014-09-04 15:32:44 <hearn> malloc introduces random latency as well
1076 2014-09-04 15:32:51 <sipa> fair enough
1077 2014-09-04 15:33:03 <hearn> if you want hard-real time performance, i don't think we can get that in an app like bitcoind
1078 2014-09-04 15:33:04 <wumpus> timothy: I hate statements like that, really
1079 2014-09-04 15:33:15 <wumpus> 'C is useless if you know how to write assembly!' :p
1080 2014-09-04 15:33:19 <sipa> C++ is also useless when you know assebly
1081 2014-09-04 15:33:22 <sipa> lol
1082 2014-09-04 15:33:23 <wumpus> HAH
1083 2014-09-04 15:33:25 <hearn> timothy: and airbags are useless if you know how to drive, hard hats are useless if you remember to look upwards, etc ...
1084 2014-09-04 15:33:38 <timothy> lol
1085 2014-09-04 15:34:02 <wumpus> only people with too much time on their hands AND overestimate their own preciseness of working think like that
1086 2014-09-04 15:34:06 <hearn> smart programmers find every way to eliminate entire classes of errors when possible. that's basically how we make progress ... find ways to eliminate groups of bugs at once, this lets us build more complicated software, and up we go
1087 2014-09-04 15:34:17 <daybyter> wumpus: you use java for bitcoin stuff?
1088 2014-09-04 15:34:30 <hearn> the nice thing about the boehm GC is that it's drop in for C++ and you can keep the delete statements, if you like.
1089 2014-09-04 15:34:34 <wumpus> daybyter: not me, but many people do
1090 2014-09-04 15:34:35 <hearn> or remove them
1091 2014-09-04 15:34:42 <daybyter> I do...
1092 2014-09-04 15:34:47 <hearn> however it does not require much in the way of code changes.
1093 2014-09-04 15:35:06 <hearn> quite a few large, well known programs use GC'd C++ so it's not as bizarre as it sounds
1094 2014-09-04 15:35:21 <hearn> for example the Unreal Engine uses a GCd core heap, even though it's a game with hard latency requirements (gotta hit that frame rate)
1095 2014-09-04 15:35:24 <hearn> Inkscape as well
1096 2014-09-04 15:36:02 <hearn> there's another flip side - GC can make some kinds of concurrent data structures a lot easier to write.
1097 2014-09-04 15:36:05 W0rmDr1nk has joined
1098 2014-09-04 15:36:30 <timothy> btw I don't like the usage of garbage collectors in critical/security code
1099 2014-09-04 15:36:32 derbumi has joined
1100 2014-09-04 15:36:33 <wumpus> hearn, are you trying to sell us something? :P
1101 2014-09-04 15:37:03 <hearn> i'm interested in ways to drive down the risk of code changes, as that's kind of paralysing the project at the moment. memory management vulnerabilities is obviously one problem that's plagued C++ apps since forever.
1102 2014-09-04 15:37:22 <wumpus> timothy: I don't see what security has to do with them?
1103 2014-09-04 15:37:26 <hearn> bitcoin has done pretty well, but it's inevitable that at some point a double free or use after free somewhere
1104 2014-09-04 15:37:44 <hearn> timothy: it's the opposite, GC makes code more secure. just go look at how many exploits are based on memory management bugs.
1105 2014-09-04 15:37:58 <wumpus> timothy: for hard real-time code I'd agree, but bitcoin is far from that
1106 2014-09-04 15:38:04 <hearn> GC + automatic bounds checking are the best things that ever happened for computer security, by far.
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1108 2014-09-04 15:38:18 <wumpus> timothy: I wouldn't want my pacemaker to go to sleep for a few minutes to sweep memory :P
1109 2014-09-04 15:38:20 <timothy> and what about boehm GC bugs? :P
1110 2014-09-04 15:38:23 <sipa> wumpus: not real-time code, but we do have unusual resource constraints
1111 2014-09-04 15:38:45 <timothy> you have to trust a third-party library
1112 2014-09-04 15:38:48 <hearn> it's a rather old and mature codebase. i haven't heard of boehm GC bugs ever introducing exploits.
1113 2014-09-04 15:38:52 <sipa> timothy: we have to trust g++ too
1114 2014-09-04 15:39:00 <sipa> and the linux kernel
1115 2014-09-04 15:39:01 <timothy> and openssl, infact ...
1116 2014-09-04 15:39:05 <timothy> :P
1117 2014-09-04 15:39:07 <sipa> don't mention openssl
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1119 2014-09-04 15:39:26 <timothy> more code means more bug, imho
1120 2014-09-04 15:39:42 <hearn> the one possibility for problems is that gc in c++ is conservative. if you can create an integer that looks like a pointer, it can pin that object in memory
1121 2014-09-04 15:39:46 <sipa> timothy: that's a very simplistic view
1122 2014-09-04 15:39:55 <hearn> on 64 bit systems with randomized heaps that's probably very difficult. on 32 bit without aslr not sure ...
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1125 2014-09-04 15:41:03 <wumpus> hearn: that's what has always scared me about GC in languages without pointer tagging
1126 2014-09-04 15:41:29 <sipa> boehm even avoids memory locations to which an integer-that-looks-like-a-pointer points, afaik
1127 2014-09-04 15:41:33 <hearn> in practice it doesn't seem to cause problems. i mean, i've never heard of this actually causing problems in real apps because the list of conditions needed to get a false positive is pretty high
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1129 2014-09-04 15:41:55 <hearn> it has to be within the heap, it has to be aligned, it has to point to an actual allocated piece of data, etc
1130 2014-09-04 15:42:32 <hearn> integers that look the same as heap addresses are rare, in most apps. for bitcoin, the only risk i can see is that someone manages to create a protocol message that contains a pointer-like item ... but again, modern systems should all be randomizing the address space
1131 2014-09-04 15:42:33 <wumpus> not that pinning an object is usually a very big problem, but it just feels wrong to me that similar-looking data can influence things
1132 2014-09-04 15:42:50 <hearn> so it'd be really tough to do that reliably. and on 64 bit forget it
1133 2014-09-04 15:42:51 <wumpus> especially if you have data that is controlled by external parties (ie read from disk or network)
1134 2014-09-04 15:42:55 <sipa> compile-time garbage collection ftw!
1135 2014-09-04 15:43:05 llllllllll has joined
1136 2014-09-04 15:43:20 <hearn> i think it'd be worth it, at least to experiment.
1137 2014-09-04 15:43:45 <wumpus> it makes it too much like voodoo... now we have this bit pattern, and even though we never interpret it as pointer, magically it influences the program!
1138 2014-09-04 15:43:52 Soligor has joined
1139 2014-09-04 15:44:08 <hearn> you can also tell the GC not to scan certain areas.
1140 2014-09-04 15:44:19 <wumpus> so IMO, if you want garbage collection, use a proper garbage collected language
1141 2014-09-04 15:44:28 <hearn> for example it is quite simple to mark any data deserialized from the network as non-scanned.
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1143 2014-09-04 15:46:12 <wumpus> (microsoft actually tried C++ with pointer tagging, as 'managed C++', no idea where that went though, not that we can use it anyway...)
1144 2014-09-04 15:47:27 <hearn> it was quite successful
1145 2014-09-04 15:47:37 <hearn> (on windows)
1146 2014-09-04 15:48:16 <wumpus> hearn: sure, it's interesting and if you want to experiment with it, you're welcome, but unless it really solves a problem that we have I don't see it being merged any time soon
1147 2014-09-04 15:49:25 <wumpus> and if it allows removing say half of the code it becomes interesting :-)
1148 2014-09-04 15:49:36 <jrick> adding a gc to c++ doesn't instantly solve all your dangling pointers
1149 2014-09-04 15:49:37 <wumpus> but we already have a lot of automated memory management using RAII
1150 2014-09-04 15:50:10 <hearn> i see it more as preventing problems we may have but don't know about yet, or may introduce in future.
1151 2014-09-04 15:50:15 Guest43181 has joined
1152 2014-09-04 15:50:23 <hearn> after all this conversation started because you are debugging some kind of memory management problem
1153 2014-09-04 15:50:25 <sipa> i think it will more cause us to not problems :)
1154 2014-09-04 15:50:30 <sipa> *see
1155 2014-09-04 15:51:38 <wumpus> hearn: yes, but it's the first time in ages that this happens, and it's in unmerged, hardly tested and mostly unreviewed code
1156 2014-09-04 15:52:16 <wumpus> it's not as we spent hours per day chasing obscure memory issues, at least that we don't have in common with the kernel
1157 2014-09-04 15:52:41 <wumpus> jrick: a gc will do nothing against dangling pointers
1158 2014-09-04 15:53:17 <jrick> right, you need escape analysis
1159 2014-09-04 15:53:50 <sipa> we hardly do manual new/free anyway
1160 2014-09-04 15:53:55 <wumpus> capability-based addresing :)
1161 2014-09-04 15:55:19 <hearn> GC is supposed to prevent dangling pointers
1162 2014-09-04 15:55:26 <hearn> unless you're using the term differently to how i usually see it used
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1164 2014-09-04 15:55:42 <jrick> hearn: only if the language performs escape analysis and punts the pointed to object to the heap
1165 2014-09-04 15:55:49 <hearn> because by definition you cannot have a dangling pointer - the GC will not free the memory it points to until it becomes unreachable.
1166 2014-09-04 15:56:00 <hearn> what are you talking about? escape analysis has nothing to do with GC
1167 2014-09-04 15:56:22 <hearn> you're talking about pointers onto the stack, here?
1168 2014-09-04 15:56:27 <jrick> yes
1169 2014-09-04 15:56:30 <hearn> where someone returns a pointer to their local stack frame and then returns?
1170 2014-09-04 15:56:33 <jrick> sure
1171 2014-09-04 15:56:49 <hearn> yes, but modern compilers warn about that or treat it as an error. that's not a mistake that's easy to make at all.
1172 2014-09-04 15:57:23 <hearn> (well not in c++ anyway)
1173 2014-09-04 15:57:25 <wumpus> hearn: compilers aren't very smart in that, for example try returning a pointer to part of an object on the stack
1174 2014-09-04 15:58:18 <jrick> rust fixes this without needing a gc by adding lifetimes to the type system
1175 2014-09-04 15:58:20 <wumpus> or assigning a pointer to an object on the stack to something passed in, instead of returning it, c++ has lots of ways to shoot yourself in the foot
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1180 2014-09-04 15:59:20 <hearn> yes, pointers are risky.
1181 2014-09-04 15:59:24 ak__ has joined
1182 2014-09-04 15:59:43 * daybyter likes java....no pointers...
1183 2014-09-04 16:00:11 <hearn> java is full of pointers. you just aren't allowed to do arithmetic with them
1184 2014-09-04 16:00:18 <hearn> along with other misc restrictions that make them safe
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1186 2014-09-04 16:00:33 <wumpus> right, you're not allowed to use them as arrays, that helps a lot :-)
1187 2014-09-04 16:00:46 <hearn> they also always point into the heap
1188 2014-09-04 16:00:54 <hearn> or rather, if they don't, that's hidden from the programmer
1189 2014-09-04 16:01:02 <hearn> (modern jvms do stack allocation)
1190 2014-09-04 16:01:06 <daybyter> java is good for old senile coders...
1191 2014-09-04 16:01:42 <sipa> please
1192 2014-09-04 16:01:53 <jrick> http://is.gd/oBvs4q <- attempting a dangling pointer in rust
1193 2014-09-04 16:02:34 Zarutian has joined
1194 2014-09-04 16:02:37 <wumpus> hehe <anon>:7:14: 7:15 error: `i` does not live long enough
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1196 2014-09-04 16:02:53 <wumpus> is that watertight? or can you still cheat it into causing segmentation faults?
1197 2014-09-04 16:03:15 <jrick> you can cheat it with an unsafe {} block
1198 2014-09-04 16:03:55 <wumpus> at least you have to use the word unsafe
1199 2014-09-04 16:05:04 imfaust has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1200 2014-09-04 16:05:34 <wumpus> so you know where to concentrate code review
1201 2014-09-04 16:05:41 <hearn> interestingly you *can* do unsafe memory management in java. there's a class called Unsafe that lets you do raw memcpys, atomic compare/sets, manual allocation of memory blocks etc. but i don't know many apps that use it.
1202 2014-09-04 16:06:46 <wumpus> and when you've fixed memory issues.. there's still integer overflows as a source of unexpected behavior
1203 2014-09-04 16:07:37 <hearn> yes. i have been trying to convince the developers of the kotlin language to make all arithmetic checked by default. but that's not something you can easily fix in C++ given how much software relies on it
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1207 2014-09-04 16:09:45 <kdomanski_> sipa: your patch seems to have cut CompareTo calls in half
1208 2014-09-04 16:10:02 <daybyter> my biggest problem is the BigDecimal syntax in java...looks ugly...
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1215 2014-09-04 16:18:40 <wumpus> sipa: hey, it passed now
1216 2014-09-04 16:18:50 <sipa> wumpus: i removed the last commit, sadly
1217 2014-09-04 16:18:58 <sipa> wanted to find out which commit broke things
1218 2014-09-04 16:19:46 <wumpus> sipa: oh!
1219 2014-09-04 16:20:11 <wumpus> sipa: do you still have the last commit available? I was going to test it on a 32-bit system
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1223 2014-09-04 16:22:31 <sipa> wumpus: just pushed it again
1224 2014-09-04 16:23:25 <wumpus> looks like github immediately removes unreferenced commits, I still knew the commit id, but couldn't pull it before you pushed it again to a branch
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1226 2014-09-04 16:24:07 <sipa> i'm actually trying to run the tests myself on the jenkins machine now
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1229 2014-09-04 16:26:26 <wumpus> no errors detected...
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1238 2014-09-04 16:33:59 <sipa> ok, reproduced
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1244 2014-09-04 16:39:02 <sipa> seems like a corrupted unordered_map; it's inside ::find that it segfaults...
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1246 2014-09-04 16:39:16 <wumpus> I've tested on ubuntu 12.04 32 bit x86 and Debian GNU/Linux jessie/sid 32 bit arm, no issues in tests
1247 2014-09-04 16:39:27 <sipa> seems pulltester is 10.04 64 bit
1248 2014-09-04 16:39:37 <sipa> older boost, presumably
1249 2014-09-04 16:39:46 <sipa> i hope we didn't hit another boost::unordered_map bug
1250 2014-09-04 16:40:07 <wumpus> well on my 64-bit system I couldn't reproduce either
1251 2014-09-04 16:40:15 paveljanik has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1252 2014-09-04 16:40:18 <wumpus> I don't hope so either... :/
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1295 2014-09-04 17:05:40 <andytoshi> are there any wallets who have implemented RFC6979 deterministic sigs? i am curious what decisions they made for message hash and HMAC hash
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1305 2014-09-04 17:13:28 <andytoshi> ah, electrum did, they just used regular (not doubled) SHA256
1306 2014-09-04 17:13:48 <andytoshi> and used the sha256d(msg) as the input to the deterministic nonce gen
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1309 2014-09-04 17:15:27 <gmaxwell> weird choices.
1310 2014-09-04 17:16:00 <gmaxwell> oh I misread that, well not that weird.
1311 2014-09-04 17:16:02 <andytoshi> well, most crypto libs don't have sha256d, and they want you to pass a hash fn to the deterministic sign function (it doesn't choose for you)
1312 2014-09-04 17:16:21 <andytoshi> so either you implement their interface for your sha256d, or you just pass it the existing sha256
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1322 2014-09-04 17:19:51 <gmaxwell> while talking to sipa I think I'd expressed a preference for using HMAC-SHA512, in that any code implementing BIP32 has it anyways... though perhaps there is a complaint to be raised about truncating its output.
1323 2014-09-04 17:21:49 <gmaxwell> the hmac-sha256^2 that the RFC arguably prefers you use is kinda excessively weird.
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1325 2014-09-04 17:22:19 <gmaxwell> And it's not a MUST. It's actually important to be consistent in this, since we'd want to verify implementations are working right.
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1327 2014-09-04 17:22:31 <andytoshi> rust-crypto has a generic HMAC, i can use any hash i want :P. my feeling was HMAC-SHA512 too because of bip32
1328 2014-09-04 17:22:40 <andytoshi> but if other wallets have developed a convention then i'll do that
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1330 2014-09-04 17:23:20 <andytoshi> truncation is in the RFC, it's assumed to happen because apparently a lot of EC groups have weird orders
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1333 2014-09-04 17:25:18 <andytoshi> i was going to make my nonce-generator generic (it is going in the rust secp256k1 bindings) but i can't genericize over the hash size and allocating is a nogo
1334 2014-09-04 17:26:00 <gmaxwell> really this should move into libsecp256k1, the current interface is unsafe for mortals.
1335 2014-09-04 17:26:17 <gmaxwell> It's not there yet due to the lack of internal hash functions.
1336 2014-09-04 17:26:25 <andytoshi> the rust interface is much nicer :)
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1345 2014-09-04 17:31:29 <andytoshi> i think armory uses random nonces, the c++ code is tangley but it creates a prng and gives it to the signer object..
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1349 2014-09-04 17:33:12 <andytoshi> so my feeling is there is no convention, i should use HMAC-SHA512
1350 2014-09-04 17:33:15 <andytoshi> sipa, gmaxwell: ^
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1352 2014-09-04 17:34:39 <sipa> sgtm
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1412 2014-09-04 18:17:21 <Eliel> gmaxwell: truncating hash function output is bad?
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1436 2014-09-04 18:33:27 <ma11011s> When people like OâBrien say things like: âBefore we know it bitcoin is going to be critical to our lives the way the Internet or mobile communication is criticalâ. I hope this reaches all of you and realize you are doing a fantastic job. I am learning that bitcoin has huge potential and lights up this dark world. Thank you all.
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1440 2014-09-04 18:36:24 <cfields> michagogo: around?
1441 2014-09-04 18:37:06 <sipa> wumpus: fixed!
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1443 2014-09-04 18:37:34 <sipa> wumpus: map1.find(...) != map2.end() ... seems to work on newer boost, but not on older boost
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1451 2014-09-04 18:40:02 <cfields> sipa: yikes!
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1471 2014-09-04 18:55:53 <michagogo> cfields: ish
1472 2014-09-04 18:55:55 <michagogo> Why?
1473 2014-09-04 18:56:13 <michagogo> (Going through a tunnel atm, messages may be delayed)
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1476 2014-09-04 18:57:37 <andytoshi> any ideas for how i can build a test corpus for RFC6979 nonces with secp256k1 and HMAC-SHA512?
1477 2014-09-04 18:57:46 <andytoshi> i guess, openssl at the prompt..
1478 2014-09-04 18:58:07 <cfields> michagogo: it'd be great if you could give #4727 a try now, I'm satisfied with it
1479 2014-09-04 18:58:23 <andytoshi> grr, why doesn't the openssl prompt support variables
1480 2014-09-04 18:58:36 <michagogo> cfields: link?
1481 2014-09-04 18:58:54 <cfields> michagogo: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4727
1482 2014-09-04 19:00:13 <michagogo> Thanks. Don't think I'll get around to it tonight (it's 10 PM and I'm not home yet), but I'll open it in a tab for when I can
1483 2014-09-04 19:00:26 <cfields> np. thanks
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1501 2014-09-04 19:13:00 <cfields> sipa: are there any operand size constraints i can assume when implementing secp256k1_num_mul ?
1502 2014-09-04 19:13:28 <sipa> cfields: inputs at most 256 bits; output at most 512 bits
1503 2014-09-04 19:15:04 <cfields> sipa: thanks. I guess the more accurate question: any operations where a single input can be >256bit ?
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1508 2014-09-04 19:17:02 <sipa> cfields: yes, division
1509 2014-09-04 19:17:07 <sipa> cfields: and shifts
1510 2014-09-04 19:17:29 <sipa> though #21 removes division entirely...
1511 2014-09-04 19:17:33 * sipa is tempted to merge it
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1513 2014-09-04 19:18:19 <gmaxwell> should just figure out why it isn't faster. It should be faster.
1514 2014-09-04 19:18:33 <sipa> yup
1515 2014-09-04 19:18:53 <cfields> sipa: great, thanks.
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1519 2014-09-04 19:19:48 <kdomanski_> sipa: is there a specific compiler targeted on OSX?
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1521 2014-09-04 19:20:19 <sipa> kdomanski_: ask cfields
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1523 2014-09-04 19:20:29 <kdomanski_> cfields: is there a specific compiler targeted on OSX?
1524 2014-09-04 19:21:42 <cfields> kdomanski_: any should work.
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1526 2014-09-04 19:22:14 <cfields> kdomanski_: releases use clang 3.2 and 10.7sdk, but they're actually cross-built from Linux
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1530 2014-09-04 19:26:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's strange that even the microbenchmark (his test which runs the split 10x instead of once) is only 1.8x times faster
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1532 2014-09-04 19:27:03 <sipa> i'd expected a few multiplications and shifts to be at least an order of magnitude less work than a division
1533 2014-09-04 19:28:55 <melvster> anyone know, is redeemScript optional in a normal P2SH signrawtransaction command?
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1537 2014-09-04 19:29:41 <gmaxwell> melvster: IIRC it's only optional if the p2sh was addmultisiged.
1538 2014-09-04 19:29:53 <melvster> gmaxwell: ah ok thanks
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1541 2014-09-04 19:31:42 <sipa> melvster: apparently, it's required if you specify your own private keys
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1544 2014-09-04 19:32:01 <sipa> or if your own wallet doesn't know about it, of course
1545 2014-09-04 19:32:13 <melvster> sipa: ah right, yes I'm adding a privatekey array
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1547 2014-09-04 19:32:39 <melvster> and it normally looks like 76a914 XXXX 88ac?
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1550 2014-09-04 19:33:33 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. this isn't the implementation I expected this to use, this is just an approximation. Is it increasing the weight of the split?
1551 2014-09-04 19:34:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: i haven't checked the math; peter claimed that it is very close or equal to the previous implementation
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1556 2014-09-04 19:35:24 <sipa> melvster: that looks like a normal pay-to-pubkey-hash script
1557 2014-09-04 19:35:55 <gmaxwell> exact division should be possible with less work given a modular multiply large enough to contain the whole range of numbers.
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1561 2014-09-04 19:37:38 <gmaxwell> Here is the citation, http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1078059
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1572 2014-09-04 19:40:58 <kanzure> here's a copy http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FARITH.2005.31
1573 2014-09-04 19:41:06 <kanzure> (maybe)
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1610 2014-09-04 20:21:39 <earlz> About how many Mb does the blockchain grow per day?
1611 2014-09-04 20:22:20 <sipa> at most 144; in practice, a lot less
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1613 2014-09-04 20:23:16 <sipa> more like 40
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1615 2014-09-04 20:24:51 <earlz> seems impressive it's even that much heh
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1618 2014-09-04 20:25:10 <earlz> depends on transaction volume and if people are using spammy transactions I assume
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1620 2014-09-04 20:26:00 <gmaxwell> if my memory is right, x*6703903964971298549787012499102923063764718340290819503008439308526751771896327640541599575278636139300276022332033768607092378473081058686667373266012970 >> 767 will yield the exactly rounded integer divison of x by the group order, so long as x fits in 512 bits. Though there are other ways with less expansion.
1621 2014-09-04 20:26:04 akstunt600 has joined
1622 2014-09-04 20:26:52 <gmaxwell> (well, may be other ways, I'm not sure, and don't have access to the paper I want.)
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1633 2014-09-04 20:37:46 <gmaxwell> oh darn, only correct under 2^256. hm. I'm forgetting some step.
1634 2014-09-04 20:38:37 <sipa> you just tried all numbers up to 2^256+1? :p
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1637 2014-09-04 20:40:57 <gmaxwell> no, tried order*n order*n-1 and order*n+1 for a few hundred million random points.
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1639 2014-09-04 20:41:23 <gmaxwell> and its fine so long as my points are under 2^256.
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1642 2014-09-04 20:41:59 <gmaxwell> The procedure, if followed correctly(!), is completely exact for its whole operating range.
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1645 2014-09-04 20:43:05 <gmaxwell> GCC does the same optimization on integers.
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1672 2014-09-04 21:03:14 <kdomanski_> it would appear that GCC optimises the bit-checking loop in base_uint::bits() to use x86 instruction that does exactly the same thing, since replacing the loop with a proper builtin doesn't shave any CPU time there
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1680 2014-09-04 21:12:40 <gmaxwell> kdomanski_: hm? we tested this before and the CLZ was faster.
1681 2014-09-04 21:12:47 <gmaxwell> (IIRC)
1682 2014-09-04 21:13:19 <sipa> it may depend on the compiler version of course
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1685 2014-09-04 21:13:36 <gmaxwell> Google stinks, I can't find that pull req.
1686 2014-09-04 21:13:46 <gmaxwell> It might have been at some optimization level it didn't matter.
1687 2014-09-04 21:14:09 <gmaxwell> but I've never seen GCC emit clz for something like that.
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1690 2014-09-04 21:14:59 <gmaxwell> Darn, discussion about the various optimizations mostly doesn't appear to be here. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4076#issuecomment-41463413
1691 2014-09-04 21:15:30 <sipa> i don't think that i ever published those
1692 2014-09-04 21:15:46 <gmaxwell> I know I measured it tooâ I gave a number there.
1693 2014-09-04 21:15:51 <sipa> ah
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1702 2014-09-04 21:21:15 <kdomanski_> gmaxwell: weird, I get similiar results with clz
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1704 2014-09-04 21:21:41 <gmaxwell> kdomanski_: O2 or O3? and is this a real benchmark or valgrind? did you look at the ASM output to see what it was emitting?
1705 2014-09-04 21:21:56 <kdomanski_> gmaxwell: valgrind
1706 2014-09-04 21:22:19 <kdomanski_> O2
1707 2014-09-04 21:22:25 <gmaxwell> oh, well god knows what valgrind counts as the cost for the CLZ.
1708 2014-09-04 21:22:37 <kdomanski_> I see
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1728 2014-09-04 21:56:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: good job on 4670 it considerably decreased the minimum memory usage.
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1731 2014-09-04 21:56:54 <sipa> sure you don't mean another PR?
1732 2014-09-04 21:57:11 <gmaxwell> oops 4834
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1734 2014-09-04 22:00:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: good thing you merged 4838, now I can doubt its safty. :P
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1736 2014-09-04 22:00:42 <sipa> hmm?
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1739 2014-09-04 22:01:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: CBlockIndex->phashBlock gets set to a pointer to the key in the map.
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1741 2014-09-04 22:01:35 <gmaxwell> Can that get moved?
1742 2014-09-04 22:01:39 <sipa> no
1743 2014-09-04 22:02:00 <gmaxwell> K.
1744 2014-09-04 22:02:17 <sipa> key/value are never moved, they are individually allocated together with a linked list pointer to the other elements in the same bucket
1745 2014-09-04 22:02:27 <sipa> the hashtable only contains a pointer to the first element
1746 2014-09-04 22:02:46 <sipa> and the iterator is a pointer into the hashtable, so that can get invalidated on rehash
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1748 2014-09-04 22:03:41 <gmaxwell> Glad you checked, I realized I didn't check on the basis of "if it can get moved; it'll probably just explode" which is fine for testing but not for being merged. :)
1749 2014-09-04 22:04:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: ideally, for the block index, i think we have a vector of CBlockIndex entries, and a sparse hash map for mapping block hashes to indexes into that vector
1750 2014-09-04 22:04:24 <sipa> which means 2 allocated regions total
1751 2014-09-04 22:05:04 <gmaxwell> oh I didn't think to do that. I tried to make an unordered map of CBlockIndexâ so it would be allocated inline and could be reserved) but there was just too much to change for an expirement.
1752 2014-09-04 22:05:30 <gmaxwell> normal vector allocation policy may be kind of unwelcome for us for that, IIRC vectors can have up to 2x overhead even on large objects.
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1755 2014-09-04 22:05:46 <sipa> it would also mean that instead of CBlockIndex* you could just use the vector index (which can be 32-bit integer, reducing the size of some data structures further)
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1757 2014-09-04 22:06:42 <gmaxwell> actually, an in a a/b test 4670 only reduced memory usage in the minimum configuration slightly.
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1759 2014-09-04 22:07:15 <sipa> you mean 4834?
1760 2014-09-04 22:07:37 <gmaxwell> yes
1761 2014-09-04 22:07:48 <sipa> it should mostly decrease the frequency of database writes to disk
1762 2014-09-04 22:08:00 <sipa> and total I/O to disk
1763 2014-09-04 22:08:09 <gmaxwell> well I'm testing a kind of silly configuration, dbcache=4
1764 2014-09-04 22:09:35 <sipa> so it would probably write to disk after every block
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1775 2014-09-04 22:14:59 <gmaxwell> only ~32 uses of new in the codebase.
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1780 2014-09-04 22:17:41 <cotix> only 32? Is that low on purpose?
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1783 2014-09-04 22:19:00 <sipa> yes
1784 2014-09-04 22:19:54 <gmaxwell> cotix: Modern C++ memory management should seldom/never.
1785 2014-09-04 22:21:01 <cfields> gmaxwell: the real question then is how many deletes? :)
1786 2014-09-04 22:21:22 <sipa> 31.
1787 2014-09-04 22:21:23 <sipa> Dang.
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1792 2014-09-04 22:25:04 <cfields> heh
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1794 2014-09-04 22:26:52 <gmaxwell> 51 ... thanks to error branches.
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1796 2014-09-04 22:27:19 <sipa> i assume that half of them could be replaced by a unique_ptr
1797 2014-09-04 22:27:21 Qatz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1798 2014-09-04 22:28:04 <sipa> or maybe all
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1855 2014-09-04 23:11:12 <gmaxwell> I like that someone wrote this whole article on zeroing memory, http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2014-09-04-how-to-zero-a-buffer.html only to have a comment point out that his recommended technique gets optimized out.
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1858 2014-09-04 23:15:22 <luke-jr_> gmaxwell: casting to volatile might help
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1864 2014-09-04 23:17:37 <sipa> luke-jr_: read tfa :)
1865 2014-09-04 23:18:06 <gmaxwell> luke-jr_: thats what it does, and the comment points out that devirtualization passes can still see through it.
1866 2014-09-04 23:19:08 <gmaxwell> the article ends with "There's just one catch: We've been solving the wrong problem" and a to be continued, presumably he's going to show that your data can end up in other random places (e.g. splattered all over the stack even if you never stored it there)
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1870 2014-09-04 23:22:05 <luke-jr_> "The C standard states that accesses to volatile objects are part of the unalterable observable behaviour â but it says nothing about accesses via lvalue expressions with volatile types." <-- types aren't objects? O.o
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1874 2014-09-04 23:26:38 <gwillen> gmaxwell: that's not just any someone, either, that's colin percival, openbsd security officer
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1876 2014-09-04 23:27:13 <gwillen> if _he_ can't get it working...
1877 2014-09-04 23:27:40 <gwillen> (excuse me, _free_bsd, not openbsd.)
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1880 2014-09-04 23:30:47 <sipa> gwillen: that name rings a bell
1881 2014-09-04 23:31:36 <sipa> ah, the scrypt author?
1882 2014-09-04 23:32:40 <gwillen> yeah, that sounds right
1883 2014-09-04 23:32:47 <gwillen> also runs Tarsnap, and is cperciva on HN
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1889 2014-09-04 23:39:14 <gmaxwell> gwillen: well my prior conclusion was that all these things are doombed because the C standards only promise the behavior of the C abstract machine, and the C abstract machine says nothing about memory after you're not longer using it. It would be perfectly valid for the compiler to detect your more secret of secrets and always use them to fill all deallocated memory. :P
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1891 2014-09-04 23:39:38 <gmaxwell> So at best you can do a best effort, check that it's okay on your current toolchain, and make no promises.
1892 2014-09-04 23:39:41 <gwillen> gmaxwell: yuuuuup.
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1900 2014-09-04 23:46:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: and format your hard drive when you read uninitialized memory?
1901 2014-09-04 23:47:08 <gmaxwell> s/your hard drive/the entire universe/
1902 2014-09-04 23:47:11 <luke-jr_> :P
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1904 2014-09-04 23:48:33 <gmaxwell> Reindex is 110 blocks per second at height 220k now... I'm pretty sure if I dig back to my logs from early 2013 I can find some place where it was 10 blocks/s or so.
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1907 2014-09-04 23:49:50 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, compile library with -O0 which contains a single function to zero memory
1908 2014-09-04 23:50:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: you accidentally pressed your 'turbo' button?
1909 2014-09-04 23:50:21 <phantomcircuit> technically not guaranteed to always work correctly... but very unlikely not to
1910 2014-09-04 23:50:40 <sipa> phantomcircuit: LTO ftw
1911 2014-09-04 23:50:46 <dhill> explicit_bzero
1912 2014-09-04 23:50:49 <gmaxwell> there are lots of things that work until they don't... yea, sipa took my retort. :P
1913 2014-09-04 23:50:57 <sipa> dhill: yup
1914 2014-09-04 23:51:07 <phantomcircuit> sipa, heh
1915 2014-09-04 23:51:29 <gwillen> if you don't mind taking a performance hit, you could declare all your sensitive storage volatile
1916 2014-09-04 23:51:36 <gwillen> (not just cast it to volatile when you're trying to clear it)
1917 2014-09-04 23:51:40 <gmaxwell> dhill: There is still no guarantee there. The compiler may have spilled your confidential data onto the stack in other areas which are already free and which you cannot access anymore.
1918 2014-09-04 23:51:42 <gwillen> then the compiler is obligated to obey, I believe
1919 2014-09-04 23:52:08 <gwillen> ah, yes, well, I don't think there's ever a rule that the compiler can't copy your sensitive data elsewhere
1920 2014-09-04 23:52:18 <gwillen> we need a 'sensitive' storage class
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1922 2014-09-04 23:52:59 <sipa> have the compiler encrypt all data in memory, and throw away the (randomly generated) key when data goes out of scope :p
1923 2014-09-04 23:53:07 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, i actually have a build which just calls mlockall()
1924 2014-09-04 23:53:09 <phantomcircuit> but that's cheating
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1927 2014-09-04 23:53:29 <sipa> memset(1, 0, ~0)
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1929 2014-09-04 23:54:09 <gmaxwell> gwillen: Its sort of hopless on a general purpose machine. What happens when you fault into the kernel and it saves off the registers. Have you see the tresor (tresor runs encryption securely outside of ram) stuff?
1930 2014-09-04 23:54:23 <gwillen> I haven't looked at it, no
1931 2014-09-04 23:54:39 <gmaxwell> Basically you remove some registers from the ISA.. and keep your keys there.
1932 2014-09-04 23:54:58 * gwillen nods
1933 2014-09-04 23:55:08 <gwillen> I've heard of using the x86 debug registers for key storage
1934 2014-09-04 23:55:18 <gmaxwell> bluematt's host runs that wayâ yea, using the debug registers.
1935 2014-09-04 23:56:29 <BlueMatt> they're really the only option on x86
1936 2014-09-04 23:56:39 <BlueMatt> unless you want to break one of the simd sets
1937 2014-09-04 23:56:56 <BlueMatt> and gdb doesnt even usually use them by default anyway, so...they're never really used
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1940 2014-09-04 23:58:21 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: x86 fpu stack? I believe you can make it off limits so it'll fault on access.
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1948 2014-09-04 23:59:48 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm, maybe, never looked at that one actually
1949 2014-09-04 23:59:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: in any case, debug regs are free, other things are at least sometimes used