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37 2014-09-06 01:33:59 <unyo> hello
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39 2014-09-06 01:36:16 <unyo> running the 0.9.3 branch for the lulz as a listening node, just wanted to know if of CHECKSUM ERRORs are a common occurrence to anyone else
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194 2014-09-06 05:40:02 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: steath addresses should have a single OP_RETURN for all stealth recipients, correct?
195 2014-09-06 05:41:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: see the updated bip petertodd posted.
196 2014-09-06 05:42:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: where? I get a 404 on the bips repo
197 2014-09-06 05:42:27 <gmaxwell> bitcoin-development list
198 2014-09-06 05:45:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: seems to still use a single OP_RETURN..?
199 2014-09-06 05:45:18 <Luke-Jr> most recent I saw was 2014-08-06
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201 2014-09-06 05:45:28 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, ^ poke
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203 2014-09-06 05:45:51 <gmaxwell> the revised text was a single op_return for all, plus additional bloom bait pushes for each inside that op_return, IIRC
204 2014-09-06 05:46:01 <gmaxwell> Sorry, can't get to a browser to look right now.
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209 2014-09-06 05:53:27 <petertodd> it wasn't a "revised bip", it was an idea, notably one that to work requires that op_return not have any particular upper limit. anyway, I've got better and higher-paying things to do right now then fight political battles over op_return
210 2014-09-06 05:54:20 * Luke-Jr wonders who's fighting a political battle right now
211 2014-09-06 05:54:36 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I was only asking because Electrum has a pull request that adds a new OP_RETURN for every output
212 2014-09-06 05:54:39 <petertodd> probably makes more sense to have stealth be <stealth stuff> OP_DROP (rest of script) rather than using P2SH/P2PKH anyway
213 2014-09-06 05:54:51 <Luke-Jr> and I wanted to be sure my comment wasn't ignorantly outdated or something
214 2014-09-06 05:54:52 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ?
215 2014-09-06 05:55:05 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh, you mean a stealth implementation - yeah the darkwallet one does that
216 2014-09-06 05:55:11 stapler117 is now known as clarkz-liver
217 2014-09-06 05:55:17 <Luke-Jr> so it's valid either way?
218 2014-09-06 05:55:34 <gmaxwell> 'valid' implies something is specced.
219 2014-09-06 05:55:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's what BIPs are for ;)
220 2014-09-06 05:55:48 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: they have a full spec on their wiki that is decent
221 2014-09-06 05:55:50 <gmaxwell> having an extra op_return for every output is supremely inefficient.
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223 2014-09-06 05:56:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: meh, doing it otherwise means the limit on op_return needs to be raised
224 2014-09-06 05:56:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, I don't see a problem of changing it. E.g. allowing extra indicator words per output.
225 2014-09-06 05:56:54 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: multiple OP_RETURN doesn't work any better than long OP_RETURN afaik
226 2014-09-06 05:57:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, like we discussed, submit a pull-req and change it
227 2014-09-06 05:57:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so 40 + (8 * outputs)?
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230 2014-09-06 05:58:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Yep, been kinda busy, no pull req from me recently, but next week I will again have bandwidth to open several.
231 2014-09-06 05:59:23 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, unless someone wants to propose something else.
232 2014-09-06 06:00:13 * Luke-Jr wonders if putting the identifier in an OP_DROP of the actual output might be better
233 2014-09-06 06:00:15 <petertodd> gmaxwell: in-output OP_DROP has way less edge cases...
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235 2014-09-06 06:00:35 <gmaxwell> petertodd: total preclusion of P2SH though.
236 2014-09-06 06:00:48 * Luke-Jr stabs BIP 16
237 2014-09-06 06:00:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: so what? OP_MAST will exist eventually
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239 2014-09-06 06:01:34 <petertodd> gmaxwell: honestly, all this discussion about a waste of 8 bytes per op_return output is bizzare to me
240 2014-09-06 06:01:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: perhaps, spec as bare pay to pubkey. (oh god, does the electrum pull req continue to use uncompressed pubkeys? :( )
241 2014-09-06 06:02:00 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it's a waste of 34 bytes per output.
242 2014-09-06 06:02:24 <gmaxwell> the darkwallet stuff does a seperate ephemeral key for every op_return
243 2014-09-06 06:02:28 <Luke-Jr> hm, maybe there's a way to generate the ephemeral key in such a way that these numbers are hidden in it?
244 2014-09-06 06:02:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, but that would only work for one, where almost every transaction will have two outputs (the real one and the change)
245 2014-09-06 06:03:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: there's tradeoffs re: ephemeral keys too, e.g. proving you actually were the one to pay someone w/ coinjoin
246 2014-09-06 06:03:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: can't put both in there, and let the inevitable message telling them who paid for what include data on how to decipher it?
247 2014-09-06 06:03:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: and that requires computation exponential with the data length. (it's the same as vanitygen)
248 2014-09-06 06:06:06 <Luke-Jr> actually, if someone can give out a payment id, they could just give out a different address.. :x
249 2014-09-06 06:06:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, but they're very narrow and not attractive vs more than doubling every output size on the network... and can be achieved in other ways. E.g. commiting to a hashtree of extradata as part of the emphemeral key. E.g. I can show the ephemeral key is H(extradata)*G + Q and then have the payment info in the extradata tree.
250 2014-09-06 06:06:32 <Luke-Jr> so what exactly is the use case for this?
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252 2014-09-06 06:07:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: inevatably people will use this as static addresses, which is actually fine since it results in new addresses on the network constantly... it's just like BIP32 in that respect: one private key, many addresses.
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254 2014-09-06 06:08:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I get that, but I don't see the benefit if they have to generate a payment id too
255 2014-09-06 06:08:28 <Luke-Jr> why not just generate a new address?
256 2014-09-06 06:08:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: that lets you add your coinjoin source proof, without adding a single additional byte.
257 2014-09-06 06:09:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: safer against some attacks, for example. E.g. if a website gets hacked and changes the static address it is more likely to get noticed; and all the attacker can do otherwise is dork with the payment ids.
258 2014-09-06 06:09:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: meh, doing it otherwise means the limit on op_return needs to be raised <- as I've said before IMO there is no problem in raising the limit on op_return if there is a good reason
259 2014-09-06 06:09:42 <gmaxwell> plus having the same tool for both the broadcast addresses (donations and such)
260 2014-09-06 06:10:11 <wumpus> it's way preferable to having to work around it with a solution that spams the utxo set
261 2014-09-06 06:11:03 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, that was petertodd saying that. I told him previously that I thought raising it would be fine. (esp for this, where it would take the form of additional 8 byte pushes, so we don't dillute the force of 'op_return is for binding hashes (and ephemeral keys)'
262 2014-09-06 06:11:04 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I think everyone is basically in agreement on those points.
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267 2014-09-06 06:13:07 <wumpus> gmaxwell: oh I see now, sorry
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270 2014-09-06 06:16:05 <wumpus> 40 + (8 * outputs) sounds okay to me, so there is a way to add output-specific data that won't end up in the utxo
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272 2014-09-06 06:23:35 <wumpus> OP_DROP in the output itself would need special handling to make sure the OP_DROPS don't end up in the UTXO set
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282 2014-09-06 06:38:24 <gmaxwell> wumpus: re: pull 4230 (just catching up with its discussion while starting some testing on it)- it's been my view that trickle is primarily a bandwidth / packet per second optimization. Without something like it you end up doubling the INV traffic by crossing in flight constant.
283 2014-09-06 06:38:29 <gmaxwell> er constantly.
284 2014-09-06 06:39:33 <gmaxwell> so another argument for not fussing with it right now.
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293 2014-09-06 06:47:51 <volante> gmaxwell: its also there for privacy (according to the comments in the code)
294 2014-09-06 06:48:44 <gmaxwell> Yes, it does contribute to that... though for privacy you'd really want a different parameterization
295 2014-09-06 06:51:38 <wumpus> makes sense
296 2014-09-06 06:51:51 <volante> theres an interesting comment about it on that thread by ivanpustogarov (one of the guys who wrote the deanonymisation paper)
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303 2014-09-06 07:06:44 <midnightmagic> except the last comment about running over Tor from Ivan is almost completely incorrect.
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305 2014-09-06 07:10:06 <wumpus> low-latency is good for privacy even when running over Tor
306 2014-09-06 07:10:12 <wumpus> eh- high-latency
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308 2014-09-06 07:11:06 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, only if you assume a global adversary
309 2014-09-06 07:11:12 <phantomcircuit> er
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311 2014-09-06 07:11:41 <phantomcircuit> an adversary with the ability to observe traffic on all the tor nodes
312 2014-09-06 07:11:44 <phantomcircuit> otherwise it's silly
313 2014-09-06 07:13:03 <wumpus> no, it doesn't necessarily have to watch all the tor nodes, watching just your node and transactions propagated over the bitcoin network may be enough to make inferences
314 2014-09-06 07:14:36 <wumpus> but only if the network is low-latency, if nodes group and delay transactions (trickle-like) that becomes much less reliable
315 2014-09-06 07:15:17 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, they would need to see the connection to the guard node and the exit node to correlate
316 2014-09-06 07:15:30 <phantomcircuit> which requires a good deal of global awareness
317 2014-09-06 07:15:54 <wumpus> a global adversary could look at timings between individual tor nodes and thus try to folllow the data over tor itself (making use of the fact that tor itself is a low-latency network)
318 2014-09-06 07:16:04 <wumpus> but that's not what I'm talking about
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320 2014-09-06 07:18:08 <wumpus> anyhow - trickling will stay for now
321 2014-09-06 07:18:14 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, what kind of inferences could you make about a transaction except for it's origin?
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386 2014-09-06 09:21:15 <petertodd> wumpus: "make sure the OP_DROPS don't end up in the UTXO set" <- txo commitments, or in minature, store H(scriptPubKey) and ask for scriptPubKey during tx/block relaying
387 2014-09-06 09:22:12 <petertodd> wumpus: all this obsession about the UTXO set is pretty silly given what we know...
388 2014-09-06 09:22:15 <wumpus> petertodd: yes, sound error-prone to me, I'd prefer standardizing on OP_RETURN
389 2014-09-06 09:22:30 <petertodd> wumpus: error-prone? how so?
390 2014-09-06 09:22:59 <wumpus> easy to introduce a bug if you have to store 'filtered' scripts
391 2014-09-06 09:23:15 <sipa> that's not what petertodd is suggesting
392 2014-09-06 09:23:27 <petertodd> wumpus: these aren't filtered scripts, your storing the hash of the script and asking for the script to accompany a tx
393 2014-09-06 09:23:59 <wumpus> petertodd: oh, you mean storing the hash of the script instead of the script itself
394 2014-09-06 09:24:40 <petertodd> wumpus: yes
395 2014-09-06 09:24:54 <wumpus> it wasn't clear to me what kind of transforation H(x) was, but hash makes sense yes
396 2014-09-06 09:24:58 <petertodd> wumpus: note how that's not even a fork
397 2014-09-06 09:25:08 <sipa> or we could just make p2sh mandatory :)
398 2014-09-06 09:25:27 <petertodd> sipa: I'm not wasting my time on that discussion
399 2014-09-06 09:25:38 <sipa> how do you mean?
400 2014-09-06 09:25:52 <wumpus> sipa: well the point above was to make it possible to add data to the output with OP_DROP instead of adding it to OP_RETURN, that would be foiled :)
401 2014-09-06 09:25:57 <sipa> (i'm not seriously suggesting that; it is just remarkably similar to what you're saying...)
402 2014-09-06 09:26:32 <sipa> wumpus: if the data+drop goes inside the p2sh script, it doesn't end up in the utxo set either
403 2014-09-06 09:27:02 <wumpus> petertodd: but indeed, that wouldn't be a fork or protocol change, just a different way of implementing it?
404 2014-09-06 09:27:14 <petertodd> wumpus: exactly
405 2014-09-06 09:27:24 <petertodd> wumpus: notably a way of implementing it that can be deployed gradually as well
406 2014-09-06 09:27:37 <wumpus> but how would that help? you need the full script for verification
407 2014-09-06 09:28:01 <sipa> you make sure you get the full script whenever you need it
408 2014-09-06 09:28:08 <wumpus> but then you still have to store it
409 2014-09-06 09:28:16 <sipa> yes, but not in the utxo set
410 2014-09-06 09:28:28 <wumpus> well that's just a manner of speaking
411 2014-09-06 09:28:32 <sipa> we store input scripts too, in the blockchain, but not in the utxo set
412 2014-09-06 09:28:41 <petertodd> wumpus: as in, if people start getting concerned about UTXO set size or the data in the UTXO set, full nodes can get the actual scripts on demand from their peers when they need them in conjunction with the tx/blocks's they're relaying
413 2014-09-06 09:28:55 <wumpus> you need to keep it around for verification, whether it is 'in the utxo set' is a technicality
414 2014-09-06 09:29:06 <sipa> wumpus: not really
415 2014-09-06 09:29:15 <sipa> wumpus: the same argument applies to the blockchain itself
416 2014-09-06 09:29:30 <wumpus> petertodd: you're proposing that we should ask a peer to be able to verify some transactions?
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418 2014-09-06 09:29:36 <petertodd> wumpus: that's the point: you don't need it for verification, you only need to be given it when you verify something, and you only ever verify things because someone created a tx or block
419 2014-09-06 09:29:38 <sipa> yes, we need the full blockchain around for verification, but it doesn't affect database performence on the utxo set
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422 2014-09-06 09:29:53 <petertodd> wumpus: no, I'm saying if a peer wants you to accept a tx, it should give you the scriptPubKey's required to verify that tx
423 2014-09-06 09:30:00 <wumpus> you can currently throw away the block chain and still do verification *now*
424 2014-09-06 09:30:03 <petertodd> wumpus: or a block of course
425 2014-09-06 09:30:06 <sipa> wumpus: no...
426 2014-09-06 09:30:15 <petertodd> you can't even do local verification :(
427 2014-09-06 09:30:25 <petertodd> (though that's easy enough to fix)
428 2014-09-06 09:30:28 <sipa> oh, you mean verification of future things; sure
429 2014-09-06 09:30:29 <wumpus> you just need the utxo set for verification right?
430 2014-09-06 09:30:52 <wumpus> the utxo set is self-contained, if it would contain pointers to input scripts somewhere else you need that as well
431 2014-09-06 09:30:58 <sipa> well, yes, it moves the responsibility of storage from the utxo set to transaction creators
432 2014-09-06 09:31:01 <sipa> like p2sh
433 2014-09-06 09:31:02 <petertodd> wumpus: no, you need to be able to verify that some data is in the UTXO set
434 2014-09-06 09:31:03 <wumpus> (or yo need to ask other peers, but that's kind of crazy...)
435 2014-09-06 09:31:55 <wumpus> yes I mean verification of future things, verifying past things isn't really interesting (apart from reorgs)
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438 2014-09-06 09:32:28 <sipa> it's just very different from how bitcoin works now
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440 2014-09-06 09:32:45 <petertodd> sipa: I'm not even suggesting a fork... it's really not that different
441 2014-09-06 09:32:50 <wumpus> sipa: sure, if you require p2sh that's different, but that would be a change to how things are done, petertodd implied that it is just an implementation change
442 2014-09-06 09:33:04 <sipa> an implementation change for wallets, nodes, ...
443 2014-09-06 09:33:10 <sipa> but not a consensus change
444 2014-09-06 09:33:10 <wumpus> sipa: I fully agree that if you require P2SH you only need to store the hash
445 2014-09-06 09:33:40 <petertodd> sipa: better than that, because wallets that don't have scriptPubKey data can just stick to connecting to nodes that do have it
446 2014-09-06 09:34:02 <petertodd> sipa: same way they have to stick to connecting to nodes that have blockchain data if they're using SPV w/bloom
447 2014-09-06 09:34:13 <wumpus> but if the script can contain something else you need to store it be able to verify transactions
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451 2014-09-06 09:34:46 <sipa> wumpus: petertodd is suggesting that whenever you give someone a tx or a block, you're required to also give them the corresponding full output scripts
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453 2014-09-06 09:35:26 <wumpus> sipa: ok...
454 2014-09-06 09:36:22 <wumpus> yes, if you force other people to give you the data every time you process it, you don't need to store it
455 2014-09-06 09:36:49 <sipa> and typically when someone sends you a transaction, they know the output script, because they've just created input for it
456 2014-09-06 09:37:03 <sipa> and when someone sends you a block, they also know those spent output scripts, because they just validated them
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458 2014-09-06 09:38:17 <petertodd> sipa: note though the ugly part of this in practice you do need a soft-fork to make proving a specific scriptPubKey of a transaction compact - IE a (U)TXO commitment scheme - otherwise you can construct edge cases where the proof of scriptPubKey(s) are huge transactions
459 2014-09-06 09:38:33 <sipa> right
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461 2014-09-06 09:38:50 <sipa> to avoid needing to send the full crediting transactions, and just the output + merkle tree
462 2014-09-06 09:39:17 <sipa> how do you do that as a softfork?
463 2014-09-06 09:39:25 <petertodd> sipa: just add another index to blocks of course
464 2014-09-06 09:39:38 <sipa> ah, per block
465 2014-09-06 09:39:45 <sipa> but that doesn't work for individual transactions
466 2014-09-06 09:40:01 <petertodd> sipa: sure it does - the index is of a new merklized transaction format
467 2014-09-06 09:40:42 <sipa> you're sending me a transaction with a particular input from txidA:n
468 2014-09-06 09:41:15 <sipa> sorry, i need some coffee first :)
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470 2014-09-06 09:42:23 <wumpus> so yes, requiring P2SH would be realistic
471 2014-09-06 09:42:31 <wumpus> +more
472 2014-09-06 09:42:53 <sipa> but that doesn't solve petertodd's problem
473 2014-09-06 09:43:12 <sipa> as it means you can't inspect the extra data in transactions
474 2014-09-06 09:43:19 <petertodd> sipa: no, it's specifically designed to not solve my problem - that's the whole point of requiring p2sh
475 2014-09-06 09:43:37 <wumpus> it appears that solving petertodds problem creates a lot of new problems
476 2014-09-06 09:44:16 <wumpus> just put the data in OP_RETURN :)
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479 2014-09-06 09:44:56 <petertodd> wumpus: anyway, I pointed out H(scriptPubKey) to lead to my next point, which is that having an infinite sized UTXO set is insane
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483 2014-09-06 09:45:35 <petertodd> wumpus: and if you go down the path of thinking about H(scriptPubKey), you realise that how many scriptPubKeys you store in your local UTXO set vs. the set of all possible spendable ones is a bandwidth tradeoff
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486 2014-09-06 09:46:28 <wumpus> an infinite sized utxo set would be interesting, would any possible utxo be in there?
487 2014-09-06 09:46:34 <wumpus> :P
488 2014-09-06 09:46:42 <petertodd> wumpus: no, I mean there's no limit on UTXO growth
489 2014-09-06 09:46:49 <sipa> you just preallocate 1 satoshi to every possible output script
490 2014-09-06 09:47:00 <sipa> infinite market cap!
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494 2014-09-06 09:48:26 <petertodd> sipa: oh, and reminds me: easy to make tx's merklized by adding an op_ret output to them with the vin/vout merkle trees
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496 2014-09-06 09:49:02 <petertodd> sipa: pity that's a client-side change :(
497 2014-09-06 09:49:39 <sipa> right, that's what i was getting at
498 2014-09-06 09:49:54 <sipa> you can't do this without changing txids, which is what is being referred to
499 2014-09-06 09:50:07 <sipa> but if you're inserting something inside transactions, right indeed
500 2014-09-06 09:50:20 <petertodd> sipa: no, you can't do it as bandwidth efficiently
501 2014-09-06 09:50:29 <sipa> perhaps #bitcoin-wizards ?
502 2014-09-06 09:50:39 <petertodd> yup
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635 2014-09-06 14:05:32 <kdomanski__> 0*`
636 2014-09-06 14:05:32 <kdomanski__> 'xcm
637 2014-09-06 14:05:34 <kdomanski__> ]tgfg
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641 2014-09-06 14:08:54 <sipa> kdomanski__'s cat, is that you on the keyboard?
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719 2014-09-06 15:48:01 <kdomanski__> huh, must have been the housemaid
720 2014-09-06 15:48:09 <kdomanski__> sipa: ^
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807 2014-09-06 17:47:43 <Adlai> "For Hardy, the most beautiful mathematics was that which had no practical applications in the outside world⦠his own special field of number theory."
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829 2014-09-06 18:22:29 <devrandom> is there a page somewhere with a histogram of blockchain txs binned by BTC sent?
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835 2014-09-06 18:24:29 <sipa> devrandom: how do you calculate BTC sent?
836 2014-09-06 18:25:30 <devrandom> good point, it's not possible in general
837 2014-09-06 18:25:55 <sipa> you can bin them by BTC *moved* easily, but that's not the same thing
838 2014-09-06 18:26:02 <Eliel> in practise you can get quite good guesses though.
839 2014-09-06 18:26:02 <devrandom> but is there at least a histogram by BTC moved?
840 2014-09-06 18:26:20 <sipa> would a bash oneliner do?
841 2014-09-06 18:26:30 <devrandom> sure :)
842 2014-09-06 18:27:24 <sipa> hmm, that would take ages
843 2014-09-06 18:29:27 <devrandom> I could do a block range... just interested in ratios
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889 2014-09-06 19:20:53 <dhill> http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2014-09-04-how-to-zero-a-buffer.html
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911 2014-09-06 19:46:29 <kdomanski> dhill: that article was discussed here a few days ago
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957 2014-09-06 20:55:02 <nullbyte> .
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964 2014-09-06 21:05:32 <Eliel> When you're restarting bitcoind that's got 500+MB of itself in swap, is there any reason to have it make a controlled shutdown and not just kill -KILL it? It takes ages to shutdown :P
965 2014-09-06 21:09:21 jujumax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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967 2014-09-06 21:11:10 <phantomcircuit> Eliel, you could screw up the leveldb utxo database
968 2014-09-06 21:11:21 <phantomcircuit> it shouldn't... but weill
969 2014-09-06 21:11:23 <phantomcircuit> well
970 2014-09-06 21:13:46 <Eliel> Ah, it finally shut down. Now it's only 30 minutes wait until it's back running and responsive :P
971 2014-09-06 21:13:58 jujumax has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
972 2014-09-06 21:15:10 <Eliel> (yes, this virtual server is not quite big enough for bitcoind anymore)
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