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  61 2014-09-07 01:59:06 <gmaxwell> dhill: yes, I cited those particular reasons earlier too; actually there are even more than he's list. E.g. the kernel will save context in memory that can sit around with no promise of ever getting zeroed. All that can be done is a best effort attempt; the talk of language extensions for it just seems unlikely to me, eliminating all the leak paths would mean enormous performance hits, and would likely give a false sense of security when ...
  62 2014-09-07 01:59:12 <gmaxwell> ... additional leak paths still existed (e.g. the kernel as mentioned above)
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 102 2014-09-07 03:02:53 <earlz> So is a coinbase transaction allowed to be non-standard?
 103 2014-09-07 03:03:14 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 104 2014-09-07 03:03:15 <earlz> I heard that it isn't, but can't pinpoint the exact code that prevents it
 105 2014-09-07 03:03:59 <mr_burdell> like could it pay out only 0.00000001?
 106 2014-09-07 03:04:13 <earlz> no
 107 2014-09-07 03:04:21 <mr_burdell> would that block not get relayed?
 108 2014-09-07 03:04:35 <earlz> Like it could pay to something other than a public key/public key hash
 109 2014-09-07 03:04:55 <earlz> liek could a coinbase transaction be a "puzzle" transaction or some such
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 111 2014-09-07 03:05:25 <mr_burdell> you'd be paying to a hash, right?
 112 2014-09-07 03:05:52 <earlz> eya
 113 2014-09-07 03:05:53 <earlz> yea
 114 2014-09-07 03:06:09 <earlz> but I mean, somehting that would count as non-standard, so wouldn't normally be relayed
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 116 2014-09-07 03:09:00 <Luke-Jr> earlz: the Bitcoin protocol doesn't have any concept of "non-standard"
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 118 2014-09-07 03:09:19 <Luke-Jr> that's strictly relay and miner policy
 119 2014-09-07 03:09:29 <Luke-Jr> … and of course what has been specified in standards
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 130 2014-09-07 03:29:18 <petertodd> earlz: transactions already in blocks always bypass the standardness checks
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 136 2014-09-07 03:40:34 <earlz> ah, I thought there was some kind of enforcement of what could eb a coinbase transaction, specifically
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 138 2014-09-07 03:40:58 <earlz> I guess in theory you could mine to scripthash and what not
 139 2014-09-07 03:41:00 <Luke-Jr> earlz: only the input
 140 2014-09-07 03:41:37 <Luke-Jr> 1 input, to a null:-1 outpoint, no more than 100 bytes scriptSig which is never executed and must begin with a push of the height
 141 2014-09-07 03:41:55 <Luke-Jr> outputs can be any valid output
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 143 2014-09-07 03:42:14 <earlz> ok, thanks for clearing that up
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 150 2014-09-07 04:00:13 <gmaxwell> I'm guessing that no one expected or intends that whitebind should disable the ordinary default bind behavior?
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 152 2014-09-07 04:08:14 <jgarzik> sigh. this is why I went with a simple whitelist....
 153 2014-09-07 04:14:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: :) This is what testing is for. :)
 154 2014-09-07 04:14:37 viic has quit (Quit: Quitting)
 155 2014-09-07 04:14:47 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't have been able to use the whitelist on the host I just noticed this on... it has matt's relay daemon on localhost, and tor hs peers (which also connect from 127.0.0.1), I very much don't want to whitelist the hs peers.
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 157 2014-09-07 04:15:48 <jgarzik> true
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 160 2014-09-07 04:24:30 <Arnavion> I just saw the discussion about (trying to) build bitcoin with MSVC here:   https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4824
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 163 2014-09-07 04:24:55 <Arnavion> FWIW building with MSVC toolchain doesn't necessarily need checking in and maintaining VS project / solution files
 164 2014-09-07 04:25:17 <Arnavion> For building GTK on Windows for the HexChat client, we use Mozilla's mozilla-build environment
 165 2014-09-07 04:25:27 <Arnavion> which is basically msys that uses cl.exe as the compiler
 166 2014-09-07 04:25:31 ak_ has joined
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 168 2014-09-07 04:26:00 <Arnavion> (Of course it does have problems such as most compiler switches not being the same etc.)
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 170 2014-09-07 04:26:37 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: I don't think anyone objects to checking it in, as long as it's maintained. You might hit a problem is MSVC doesn't like standard C++ though..
 171 2014-09-07 04:26:53 <Luke-Jr> if*
 172 2014-09-07 04:27:08 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: note that's rapidly becoming C++11
 173 2014-09-07 04:27:13 <Arnavion> I'm saying there might be nothing to checking in and maintain, assuming m-b's configure is modern enough to deal with bitcoin's script
 174 2014-09-07 04:27:46 <Arnavion> If it does come down to checking in and maintaining project files, I wouldn't want to do it either
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 177 2014-09-07 04:38:44 <gmaxwell> heads up, some scammer has registered bitcoin.org username on skype and is spamming it around, no idea what they're upto... doubt its good. :)
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 318 2014-09-07 09:41:52 <dabura667> Question: is changing an input's sequence to be something OTHER than 0xffffffff considered non-standard? or will any sequence value be accepted by miners?
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 438 2014-09-07 13:48:17 <michagogo> Anyone happen to know if petertodd's dust-be-gone is still active?
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 441 2014-09-07 13:49:06 <dabura667> Last time I tried it, no.
 442 2014-09-07 13:49:29 <michagogo> The server is up, and accepting connections on port 80...
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 483 2014-09-07 15:26:56 <aburan28> hello, I am trying to work on a solution to fix the non-incentivized  full-node issue and have a few basic ideas about how I might go about that solution
 484 2014-09-07 15:26:58 <aburan28> but
 485 2014-09-07 15:27:28 <aburan28> are there any viable solutions on the table or even being considered?
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 487 2014-09-07 15:29:40 <justanotheruser> aburan28: I doubt full nodes can be trustlessly incentivized due to some fundamental issues with the idea.
 488 2014-09-07 15:29:46 <aburan28> it seems that the only real way to reward fullnodes is via a seperate altcoin attached to something like the proof of bandwidth algorithm from the TorCoin paper
 489 2014-09-07 15:30:09 <aburan28> What are those fundamental issues?
 490 2014-09-07 15:30:22 Knuk has joined
 491 2014-09-07 15:31:15 <justanotheruser> aburan28: the fact that unlike generating a small hash (which is a proof that you did work), you are sending electrical impulses over a wire (which is only known to be happening by those who have access to that wire, so you, the ISPs and your peer).
 492 2014-09-07 15:31:45 <justanotheruser> so really, trust in bandwidth is a much better name for the concept
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 494 2014-09-07 15:33:29 <sipa> there are two different things: full nodes provide service to the network (relay/storage of blocks/transactions), and do validation
 495 2014-09-07 15:33:40 <sipa> the last things is imho more important, but is not quantifiable
 496 2014-09-07 15:34:11 <sipa> it's just trustlessness at work... more people running full nodes and using the resulting information to build an economy
 497 2014-09-07 15:34:55 <sipa> as in: if nobody was really running a full node, miners could set whatever rules they like
 498 2014-09-07 15:34:58 <justanotheruser> as greg pointed out to me, full nodes are already incentivized because they have full node security
 499 2014-09-07 15:38:51 <aburan28> what about that scalability problem in the future? lets say 50,000tx per day were added consecutively...wouldn't there need to be some kind of distributed network to handle that load?
 500 2014-09-07 15:39:01 <jgarzik> justanotheruser, mildly incentivized
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 502 2014-09-07 15:39:28 <justanotheruser> jgarzik: yeah, I'm guessing in the currenc full nodes there is a bit of altruism
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 504 2014-09-07 15:40:06 <sipa> aren't we already doing 50000 tx per day?
 505 2014-09-07 15:40:14 <justanotheruser> also, there is a bitcoin noob I know who is running bitcoin-Qt on his laptop. Not sure why he would want to handle ~30kb/min, but I told him and he didn't mind it.
 506 2014-09-07 15:40:30 <aburan28> actually, let me just ask this: can the network rely on altruism to run fullnodes? or can this network survive without a large amount fullnodes?
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 508 2014-09-07 15:41:17 <justanotheruser> aburan28: they are incentivized by full node security and supporting the bitcoin netork
 509 2014-09-07 15:41:40 <sipa> right, but you can get the full node security without supporting the network
 510 2014-09-07 15:41:59 <sipa> though apart from some bandwidth, there is little difference between them
 511 2014-09-07 15:42:02 <justanotheruser> sipa: how much more does it cost to support the network once you have full node security?
 512 2014-09-07 15:42:14 <sipa> exactly as much as others ask you :)
 513 2014-09-07 15:42:28 <sipa> if they ask many blocks, you'll have to read many blocks from disk and send them over the network
 514 2014-09-07 15:42:43 <justanotheruser> well I have uncapped internet, so it is all electricity and depreciating hardware
 515 2014-09-07 15:43:03 <sipa> oh, if you don't otherwise need the full blocks yourself, you could delete them if you don't want to serve them to others
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 517 2014-09-07 15:43:53 <justanotheruser> yeah, I wonder how making that process easier (v0.10.0 will have sharding, no?) will effect the number of contributing full nodes
 518 2014-09-07 15:44:04 <sipa> sharding?
 519 2014-09-07 15:44:24 <sipa> no, it will likely have pruning though
 520 2014-09-07 15:44:33 <sipa> which is maybe what you meant?
 521 2014-09-07 15:44:39 <justanotheruser> I don't think so
 522 2014-09-07 15:44:55 <sipa> pruning = remove old blocks from disk after verification
 523 2014-09-07 15:45:20 <justanotheruser> Sharding means I might store blocks 50,000-150,000 and some other guy might have 1-49,999 and 150,001-.... etc
 524 2014-09-07 15:45:39 <sipa> the current pruning implementation is just all or nothing
 525 2014-09-07 15:45:45 <justanotheruser> oh
 526 2014-09-07 15:45:48 <sipa> for more advanced things, we need a protocol change
 527 2014-09-07 15:45:55 <sipa> so nodes can advertize which ranges they have
 528 2014-09-07 15:45:55 <justanotheruser> do we?
 529 2014-09-07 15:46:01 <justanotheruser> right right
 530 2014-09-07 15:46:15 <aburan28> what kind of protocol changes?
 531 2014-09-07 15:46:38 <sipa> either through a few service bits, or by an extension of the addr/version messages
 532 2014-09-07 15:46:54 <sipa> now you can just advertize "i'm a full node!" or "I'm nothing!"
 533 2014-09-07 15:47:12 <aburan28> hmmmm
 534 2014-09-07 15:47:24 <justanotheruser> sipa: couldn't that be made to be backward compatible? You would just end up with spam from a lot of old nodes asking for blocks you don't have
 535 2014-09-07 15:47:43 <sipa> justanotheruser: you getting spam is not a problem
 536 2014-09-07 15:47:48 <sipa> justanotheruser: them not getting the blocks is
 537 2014-09-07 15:48:07 <justanotheruser> right, they would probably have to query more than one node
 538 2014-09-07 15:48:14 <sipa> which they currently don't
 539 2014-09-07 15:48:34 <sipa> after headersfirst and parallel block fetching is sufficiently rolled out, that would be much less of a problem
 540 2014-09-07 15:49:41 <dgenr8> sipa: hence the p2p network is essential to the design because it channels user traffic through the validating full nodes
 541 2014-09-07 15:50:21 <sipa> dgenr8: assuming everyone is running code to validate what they consider necessary to validate, the validation others do doesn't matter
 542 2014-09-07 15:50:28 <sipa> it just prevents many dos attacks
 543 2014-09-07 15:50:48 <sipa> not saying you're wrong of course, obviously we want the network to validate things
 544 2014-09-07 15:51:07 <dgenr8> sipa: referring to your comment about keeping miners honest
 545 2014-09-07 15:51:45 <sipa> if miners wanted to be dishonest, they could try to spin up many apparent-full-nodes to convince the network that what they are mining is valid
 546 2014-09-07 15:52:00 <sipa> unless people run their own validation
 547 2014-09-07 15:52:19 <sipa> and that is really the only full solution - bitcoin is trustless because we validate whatever we need validated ourselves
 548 2014-09-07 15:52:52 <dgenr8> aye but we should worry when a direct-to-miner network appears
 549 2014-09-07 15:53:08 <sipa> it's not black and white of course; SPV nodes rely on some degree of validates etc
 550 2014-09-07 15:53:41 <sipa> but in an idealized situation, the service full nodes provide is purely relay/archival, and not validation
 551 2014-09-07 15:54:32 <dgenr8> then you can never say things like "miners can't decide to increase the money supply because the network will ignore them"
 552 2014-09-07 15:54:55 <sipa> yes you can; because everyone will ignore those blocks because they validate them
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 554 2014-09-07 15:55:08 <sipa> but the validation is not a service to the network, it's just something you do locally
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 556 2014-09-07 15:55:39 <sipa> (and, if you do it locally anyway, it makes a lot of sense to not relay invalid things either)
 557 2014-09-07 15:55:57 <dgenr8> you don't matter if everyone else believes the miners
 558 2014-09-07 15:56:12 <sipa> true
 559 2014-09-07 15:56:52 <sipa> but if everyone reasons that way, you wouldn't bother voting for your favorite political party, right? because just your own vote doesn't matter
 560 2014-09-07 15:57:19 <dgenr8> the net result is the validating p2p network
 561 2014-09-07 15:57:32 <sipa> i disagree
 562 2014-09-07 15:57:42 <sipa> bitcoin could start relaying every block, including invalid ones
 563 2014-09-07 15:57:49 <sipa> and nothing would change, except dos potential
 564 2014-09-07 15:58:00 <sipa> why? because everyone is still validating them
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 567 2014-09-07 15:58:13 <sipa> the economic power of those validating the rules they agree about are necessary is what sets the bitcoin rules
 568 2014-09-07 15:58:43 <sipa> relaying is a service to the network, and if others choose to trust you - then yes, validation is a service to the network to
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 571 2014-09-07 15:58:47 <sipa> but others shouldn't be trusting you
 572 2014-09-07 15:58:58 <sipa> (just talking full nodes)
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 581 2014-09-07 16:05:50 <dgenr8> suppose everyone could run a private full validating nodes and NOT share txes or blocks.  this would be an improvement?
 582 2014-09-07 16:07:44 <sipa> they would still have to relay them; i'm just saying they don't need to guarantee validity, as others can't rely on that validity anyway
 583 2014-09-07 16:08:16 <sipa> i'm not suggesting any change at all - it is really how things work today
 584 2014-09-07 16:08:30 <dgenr8> oh, agreed on that.  sometimes it is said though that the p2p network is a separable or superfluous feature
 585 2014-09-07 16:08:36 <sipa> i'm just saying that you shouldn't exaggerate the importance of _verified_ data
 586 2014-09-07 16:08:54 <sipa> the service that full node provide is relaying
 587 2014-09-07 16:08:56 <dgenr8> quite agreed, actually there really is no such guarantee even offered
 588 2014-09-07 16:09:12 <sipa> not necessarily relaying validated things
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 590 2014-09-07 16:09:45 <sipa> however, the validation is still important - not as a service to the network, but to keep the system healthy
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 592 2014-09-07 16:11:42 <dgenr8> sipa: hmmmm <sipa> ... full nodes provide service to the network ... and do validation
 593 2014-09-07 16:11:42 <dgenr8> <sipa> the last things is imho more important, but is not quantifiable
 594 2014-09-07 16:12:38 <sipa> it's important that people verify for themselves whether the network is following the rules
 595 2014-09-07 16:12:49 <sipa> or at least, that people are able to verify
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 597 2014-09-07 16:17:27 <dgenr8> aburan28: maybe if a tx pays you, you could sent it to nodes when you first see them.  or would this be dos?
 598 2014-09-07 16:18:21 <sipa> dgenr8: ?
 599 2014-09-07 16:18:27 <sipa> we already relay transactions...
 600 2014-09-07 16:18:46 <aburan28> if every block (invalid/valid) was relayed to all the nodes connected you would DoS most peoples connections < 10Mbps
 601 2014-09-07 16:20:05 <aburan28> man, changes to the core Bitcoin protocol are so mentally draining
 602 2014-09-07 16:20:08 <dgenr8> sipa: i'm saying on inbound connect, push the "high-priority" txes out
 603 2014-09-07 16:20:57 <sipa> dgenr8: if they want to, they can already fetch them
 604 2014-09-07 16:21:15 <dgenr8> but they don't know they exist
 605 2014-09-07 16:21:21 <sipa> getmempool
 606 2014-09-07 16:21:34 <dgenr8> this is on the topic of how a fullnode could get paid.
 607 2014-09-07 16:21:39 <sipa> i know
 608 2014-09-07 16:21:49 <sipa> but i don't understand what your suggestion has anything to do with that
 609 2014-09-07 16:22:09 <sipa> first of all, the most important thing is that people are validating the chain
 610 2014-09-07 16:22:14 <sipa> but you can't observe that
 611 2014-09-07 16:22:51 <sipa> second, relaying/archiving blocks/tx... you can make that a for-fee feature, but i doubt now is the right time for that
 612 2014-09-07 16:23:27 <dgenr8> yeah, full node inspects tx and sees that full node itself is paid.  so it pushes it to newly connecting nodes that it normaly wouldn't push it to.
 613 2014-09-07 16:23:40 <dgenr8> actually if its running a wallet i guess it does that subject to the rebroadcast rules
 614 2014-09-07 16:24:49 <aburan28> what if we introduced a new type of onion-based encryption scheme to the tx message such that a sender would negotiate a txfee to pay in order to have that node add n layers of onion encryption which would decay as it propagates across the network much like the TCP ttl gets decremented
 615 2014-09-07 16:25:16 <aburan28> and in effect hide the tx source
 616 2014-09-07 16:25:24 <sipa> then people would set up centralized nodes to relay  things
 617 2014-09-07 16:25:46 <dgenr8> your network just got better
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 619 2014-09-07 16:26:03 <sipa> if you want onion routing, use tor
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 621 2014-09-07 16:27:21 <aburan28> bitcoin has serious anonymity problems.
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 625 2014-09-07 16:31:25 <ThomasZ> aburan28: yet, its still magnitudes better than other solutions (like banks :)
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 627 2014-09-07 16:31:29 <ThomasZ> aburan28: slow steps.
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 630 2014-09-07 16:32:38 <aburan28> Let me state that I don't believe that there should be major changes to the bitcoin protocol as it is. But,
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 632 2014-09-07 16:32:56 <aburan28> I am mainly talking about overlay networks
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 644 2014-09-07 16:36:52 <ThomasZ> aburan28: would agree that this is good going forward.  I personally don't see that as something that falls in the scope of bitcoin.
 645 2014-09-07 16:37:52 <ThomasZ> solving it at a lower level makes sense.
 646 2014-09-07 16:38:35 <aburan28> yeah sorry for the confusion, just I am not trying to get an opinion from the BitMessage, Auroracoin ppl
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 840 2014-09-07 21:27:46 <sipa> GITHUB HAS SIDE-BY-SIDE DIFFS!
 841 2014-09-07 21:28:07 <sipa> (there's a 'Unified' button, with a 'Split' next to it; click it)
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 881 2014-09-07 22:00:37 <gmaxwell> saivann_: I'm not happy with that bitcoin.org pull from trezor calling itself the highest level of security yadda yadda. There is no way with how the trezor currently works for you to be confident that the unit you recieved isn't using a rigged RNG for its key generation.
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 884 2014-09-07 22:01:37 <gmaxwell> When its so easy to poke holes at the security it certantly shouldn't be getting language like that.
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 894 2014-09-07 22:09:44 <petertodd> michagogo: dust-b-gone isn't a particularly good idea - better to just not spend the dust. UTXO "bloat" is a non-issue better solved with a fixed size UTXO set and TXO commitments.
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 896 2014-09-07 22:10:47 <sipa> petertodd: having some idea about how a scalability concern may be addressed in the future is no reason not to care about it at all anymore
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 899 2014-09-07 22:11:24 <petertodd> sipa: it's harmful because it encourages not addressing the scalability concern, which is equally an economic exploit
 900 2014-09-07 22:11:47 <petertodd> sipa: also, it's a enormous waste of time given the amount of usage it gets
 901 2014-09-07 22:12:05 <sipa> both the long term and short term future matter
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 905 2014-09-07 22:12:29 <petertodd> with the amount of usage it gets, the short term *definitely* doesn't matter
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 907 2014-09-07 22:12:48 <sipa> maybe; probably depends on your definition of 'short'
 908 2014-09-07 22:13:23 <sipa> i'm not opposed to TXO commitments and other measures to make the size of the UTXO set less of an issue
 909 2014-09-07 22:13:32 <sipa> but i don't know how the future will look by the time we get there
 910 2014-09-07 22:14:20 <petertodd> the % of the UTXO set that dust-b-gone would be getting rid of even in the best circumstance is trivial
 911 2014-09-07 22:14:24 <christophe> gmaxwell: You can combine with host-computer provided entropy.
 912 2014-09-07 22:14:52 <sipa> petertodd: i agree about that
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 914 2014-09-07 22:15:19 <sipa> petertodd: i'm just annoyed by that "this is a problem that is solved in theory; so let's forget about it" mentality
 915 2014-09-07 22:15:30 <petertodd> sipa: besides, gmaxwell promised $100 from the coinjoin fund for it and never paid up :P
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 917 2014-09-07 22:17:25 <gmaxwell> christophe: You cannot: if the device is malicious it will simply ignore (or otherwise leak) 'host-computer provided entropy'. You have no way to tell that it is included.
 918 2014-09-07 22:18:00 <petertodd> sipa: in a saner situation, that'd be a valid concern, but bitcoin has politics to deal with and getting consensus that economic issues need to be solved is damn hard
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 920 2014-09-07 22:18:43 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I just haven't done any payout of the coinjoin fund, I'll pay out of that when it goes. :) (I was trying to do a bit of a payout for darkwallet, but their stuff is just not working on testnet at all and they went unresponsive when I tried to follow up on it with them. :( (I assume they're just busy.))
 921 2014-09-07 22:19:24 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm in london next week and will have a chance to bring it up with them in person
 922 2014-09-07 22:19:34 <frankster> q
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 924 2014-09-07 22:19:45 <sipa> petertodd: and not having dust-b-gone will definitely cause people to see the economic issues behind utxo sizes faster? :)
 925 2014-09-07 22:20:03 <gmaxwell> petertodd: so far all designs for txo commitments trade bandwidth for storage, which seems to be entirely the wrong tradeoff. :(
 926 2014-09-07 22:20:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: be good to get easy instal instructiosn for the obelisk servers to have some more third parties running them for instance
 927 2014-09-07 22:20:22 <gmaxwell> in any case, dust-b-gone is also useful for reducing the privacy loss from dust.
 928 2014-09-07 22:20:38 <petertodd> sipa: yes, dust-b-gone gets brought up as one of the reasons why UTXO set size doesn't matter
 929 2014-09-07 22:20:46 <christophe> gmaxwell: for audit purposes, you can get it to show the internal entropy on its screen before the host provides its half so that you can take both and verify the math is done properly.
 930 2014-09-07 22:20:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: lol it certantly shouldn't be brought up as an example of that.
 931 2014-09-07 22:21:02 <christophe> At that point, all that's left is side-channel leaks.
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 933 2014-09-07 22:22:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: the bandwidth/storage tradeoff is always only a theoretical one; you would want to still keep your UTXO set so it's only very old UTXOs getting spent that incurs any bandwidth penalty
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 935 2014-09-07 22:22:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: of course, you can makea solid argument that having UTXO commitments at all will make UTXO bloat worse...
 936 2014-09-07 22:23:09 <gmaxwell> christophe: When I saw it before the device could tell you were doing that.  I found it very concerning that there was no secure way to initilize it with something like dicewords; esp with the decision to not support multisig.
 937 2014-09-07 22:23:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: dust-b-gone is a strict reduction in privacy compared to just not spending the dust at all
 938 2014-09-07 22:24:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: not spending it isn't actually what people do, however.
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 940 2014-09-07 22:24:17 <gmaxwell> also, not spending it has resulted in ltc having a 1gb utxo set.
 941 2014-09-07 22:24:37 <gmaxwell> (even though it has something like 100th the amount of usage of bitcoin or less)
 942 2014-09-07 22:24:55 <gmaxwell> I thought you'd been paid to fix ltc's problems? :)
 943 2014-09-07 22:25:15 <sipa> i think he was paid to find them
 944 2014-09-07 22:25:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yes, and I gave the money back and canceled the contract because we decided the solution was a bad idea
 945 2014-09-07 22:26:04 <gmaxwell> ah!
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 947 2014-09-07 22:26:15 <gmaxwell> I thought the solution you were going to do was utxo commitments for the old dust?
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 949 2014-09-07 22:26:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: well, that and the other part of the solution was something sipa was working on more than me - once it got implemented I wouldn't deserve the money anyway
 950 2014-09-07 22:26:50 <petertodd> gmaxwell: no, the solution was to do a soft-fork and remove it from the UTXO set - huge amount of effort for a trivial one-time thing
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 952 2014-09-07 22:27:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hm. Okay, I'll have to think more about the utxo commitment only for old/low value utxo. Perhaps that really does split the bad tradeoff for more bandwidth.
 953 2014-09-07 22:27:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: *txo* commitment only for old/low value
 954 2014-09-07 22:28:25 <gmaxwell> uh. txo requires a seperate search query on spentness.
 955 2014-09-07 22:28:49 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ?
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 998 2014-09-07 23:33:21 <michagogo> petertodd: someone sent 1000 satoshis to a whole bunch of gribble bc auth addresses
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1000 2014-09-07 23:33:46 <michagogo> I don't like having little bits of dust around, especially when
1001 2014-09-07 23:33:59 <michagogo> they're bits of dust that explicitly identify me
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