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 147 2014-09-10 03:46:14 <true-asset> Is anyone here at them moment?
 148 2014-09-10 03:46:19 <true-asset> *the
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 156 2014-09-10 04:02:25 <fanquake> true-asset People are always idling, if you have a question just ask it.
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 172 2014-09-10 04:13:43 <true-asset> Anyone available to help with this paid coin dev work: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=776559.0
 173 2014-09-10 04:17:17 <Luke-Jr> true-asset: this isn't ##altcoin-dev, and few here are interested in this usually
 174 2014-09-10 04:17:32 <Luke-Jr> (those who are are also in ##altcoin-dev )
 175 2014-09-10 04:17:50 <justanot1eruser> isn't that on topic in #bitcoin-otc as well?
 176 2014-09-10 04:17:59 <true-asset> okay, sorry for the intrusion
 177 2014-09-10 04:17:59 <Luke-Jr> justanot1eruser: -.-
 178 2014-09-10 04:18:30 <justanot1eruser> Luke-Jr: trading altcoins is on topic there. I would assume altcoin development contracting is as well
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 185 2014-09-10 04:25:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how many times further are we in difficulty where you have to have the first 8 bytes 0?
 186 2014-09-10 04:25:32 ak_ has joined
 187 2014-09-10 04:25:36 <BlueMatt> (ie I'm lazy and was gonna set relay network to not do spv...just check for the duplicate transaction bug, check merkle tree, and check hash has 8 0 bytes)
 188 2014-09-10 04:25:41 <BlueMatt> or sipa
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 248 2014-09-10 06:03:07 <goykasi> is there any accepted limits on how frequently you can run mempool against peer nodes?
 249 2014-09-10 06:04:13 <goykasi> and also, does anybody maintain a list of well connected (or mining) nodes?
 250 2014-09-10 06:05:01 <Luke-Jr> "run mempool"? what?
 251 2014-09-10 06:05:43 <goykasi> err send a mempool message
 252 2014-09-10 06:07:55 <Luke-Jr> there's no reason to ever do that except after you connect and are synced
 253 2014-09-10 06:08:31 <goykasi> not even to determine tx propagation?
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 256 2014-09-10 06:11:08 <Luke-Jr> peers you are connected to tell you when they have something new
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 372 2014-09-10 08:47:21 <anddam> on version 0.9.3 in src/rpcwallet.cpp settxfee() accesses nTransactionFee (that is now payTxFee in master), I'm not familiar with C++ and I don't get the scope of that variable, is it extern?
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 377 2014-09-10 08:52:44 <sipa> anddam: this class is not programming classes
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 394 2014-09-10 09:17:41 <wumpus> what are we going to do re: sourceforge? I'd suggest at least remoing the downloads, and we need to make a decision with regard to the mailing lists
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 396 2014-09-10 09:20:36 <warren> downloads are there?
 397 2014-09-10 09:20:46 <sipa> no, but old ones are
 398 2014-09-10 09:20:48 <wumpus> there are still files hosted there, yes
 399 2014-09-10 09:20:57 xenog has joined
 400 2014-09-10 09:21:22 <warren> For just a better mailing list, Google Groups is hard to beat.
 401 2014-09-10 09:21:23 <wumpus> not the ones we refer to from the bitcoin.org page, those are hosted on that same server
 402 2014-09-10 09:21:56 <warren> For private mailing list, Google Groups again ... although you probably want to use GPG to the recipients.
 403 2014-09-10 09:21:59 <wumpus> sipa: not only old ones; I see bitcoin-0.9.2.1 there as well, uploaded last month
 404 2014-09-10 09:22:05 <sipa> oh ok
 405 2014-09-10 09:22:56 <warren> sipa: regarding #4885 I recognize I could just be wrong.  Just double checking...
 406 2014-09-10 09:23:07 <wumpus> warren: gpg doesn't really scale well to a variable number of recipients
 407 2014-09-10 09:23:52 <sipa> warren: first of all, it's all in the same thread, so cs_main doesn't matter
 408 2014-09-10 09:24:26 <wumpus> sipa: but there is still the problem with the loop; Misbehave doesn't break the loop, even when the node is banned
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 410 2014-09-10 09:24:54 <sipa> warren: orphans are indeed not deleted inside the 'recursively process' loop, but they can't be - the loop would break
 411 2014-09-10 09:25:25 <warren> sipa: then Misbehaving(), EraseOrphansFor() then break?
 412 2014-09-10 09:25:43 <sipa> just in general, the loop maintains iterators over the orphan data structures
 413 2014-09-10 09:26:05 <warren> If erasure happens before the next iteration it's safe to just stop there?
 414 2014-09-10 09:26:07 <wumpus> it doesn't matter when the deletion happens, afterwards is fine
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 416 2014-09-10 09:26:19 <sipa> warren: sure it can be fixed
 417 2014-09-10 09:26:32 <wumpus> we just have to make sure it doesn't get into a loop where it repetitively bans the peer, without actually disconnecting it or stopping the work :)
 418 2014-09-10 09:26:42 <warren> Yeah, that's why I'm curious how to see the order of function calls.
 419 2014-09-10 09:26:55 <sipa> but it would require a few more changes than just having the misbehaving call eraseorphans directly
 420 2014-09-10 09:27:16 <sipa> in fact, if we're worried, that loop should be changed entirely - it doesn't delete anything until the entire loop is done
 421 2014-09-10 09:27:27 <warren> that's my point
 422 2014-09-10 09:27:36 <warren> that defeats the purpose of EraseOrphansFor()
 423 2014-09-10 09:27:36 <wumpus> so we should break out of the loop if the node is banned
 424 2014-09-10 09:27:37 <sipa> i mean, regardless of banning
 425 2014-09-10 09:27:50 <sipa> warren: i don't understand
 426 2014-09-10 09:28:19 <warren> EraseOrphansFor() is meant to prevent needless validation of other tx's?
 427 2014-09-10 09:28:22 <wumpus> Misbehaving() itself shouldn't be deleting anything
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 429 2014-09-10 09:28:30 <warren> agreed
 430 2014-09-10 09:30:03 <warren> <sipa> warren: first of all, it's all in the same thread, so cs_main doesn't matter
 431 2014-09-10 09:30:06 <warren> regarding that ...
 432 2014-09-10 09:30:39 <sipa> i mean, you're right that finalizenode and misbehaving don't run together, but the lock is not the reason for that
 433 2014-09-10 09:30:49 <sipa> just the call order
 434 2014-09-10 09:30:58 <warren> ok misunderstood that aspect
 435 2014-09-10 09:32:47 <warren> For future reference, I'm curious how these various tasks within the same thread are scheduled
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 437 2014-09-10 09:32:56 <warren> it isn't clear to me when exactly FinalizeNode() actually happens
 438 2014-09-10 09:33:16 <sipa> things are not "scheduled" within a thread
 439 2014-09-10 09:33:22 <sipa> they run when they are called...
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 441 2014-09-10 09:33:38 <sipa> finalizenode is called by net when a node is being deleted
 442 2014-09-10 09:33:52 <sipa> which happens after disconnection, for whatever reason
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 449 2014-09-10 09:46:20 <warren> cfields: btw, what's going on with the gitian-descriptors in master?  they and the release-process.md appear to be stale
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 451 2014-09-10 09:46:46 <sipa> warren: #4727 ?
 452 2014-09-10 09:47:06 <warren> sipa: ah, thanks
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 465 2014-09-10 09:58:52 <anddam> warren: also, librelist
 466 2014-09-10 09:59:05 <anddam> not as much feature-rich tho'
 467 2014-09-10 09:59:39 <anddam> why is there a setter but not a getter for txfee?
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 474 2014-09-10 10:16:10 <gdm85> (testnet3) I see very high spikes of CPU activity of bitcoind..what will usually cause that?
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 510 2014-09-10 11:06:38 <wumpus> tx/block validation
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 580 2014-09-10 13:46:31 <b-itcoinssg> hello
 581 2014-09-10 13:46:38 <b-itcoinssg> any1 here?
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 587 2014-09-10 13:48:38 <b-itcoinssg> any1 know a little about transaction signing?
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 594 2014-09-10 13:49:53 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: don't ask to ask
 595 2014-09-10 13:50:14 <sipa> just ask your question; if someone knows, they may answer; without asking your question, nobody can even guess
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 598 2014-09-10 13:50:30 <b-itcoinssg> alright
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 603 2014-09-10 13:53:08 <b-itcoinssg> I'm confused about a scenario: Let's say Alice has an Address AliceAdd with 100 btc, she gives Bob 50, and her change goes to a new address. Now let's say a day later someone puts 100 btc in her original AliceAdd, can't bob sign 50 back to himself because he's seen the public key, and the signed transaction
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 608 2014-09-10 13:55:26 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: bitcoin internally does not work with 'addresses' or 'balances'
 609 2014-09-10 13:55:37 <b-itcoinssg> ok
 610 2014-09-10 13:55:42 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: the basic concept is a coin (which has an owner, and an amount)
 611 2014-09-10 13:55:52 <sipa> every transaction consumes specific coins, and produces new coins
 612 2014-09-10 13:56:15 <sipa> the value of the new coins can't be more than the value of the destroyed ones
 613 2014-09-10 13:56:27 <sipa> and they're always destroyed entirely: you can't just spend part of a coin
 614 2014-09-10 13:56:50 <b-itcoinssg> I see
 615 2014-09-10 13:57:02 <sipa> and a transaction must explicitly refer to the previous transaction which produced the coins it is spending
 616 2014-09-10 13:57:12 <b-itcoinssg> ahh, ok
 617 2014-09-10 13:57:17 <sipa> and as every coin can only be spent entirely, there is never a risk of replay
 618 2014-09-10 13:57:40 <sipa> this also means that it doesn't suffice to know your keys, and the value of coins assigned to the corresponding addresses
 619 2014-09-10 13:57:51 <sipa> you need to know the actual crediting transactions which have unspent coins left
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 622 2014-09-10 14:00:02 <b-itcoinssg> ok, so, bear with me here. Even if the coins were not destroyed and produced in a transaction. just the fact that the transaction has to incorporate the previous one should make my stated scenario unfeasible
 623 2014-09-10 14:00:26 <sipa> indeed
 624 2014-09-10 14:00:34 <sipa> what you're describing is a 'replay attack'
 625 2014-09-10 14:00:41 <b-itcoinssg> i see
 626 2014-09-10 14:00:46 <sipa> and giving coins an explicit identity prevents that
 627 2014-09-10 14:01:59 <b-itcoinssg> awesome, that clears a lot. I'm gonna go figure out how the destruction and production of coins work in a transaction now. Thanks Pieter
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 632 2014-09-10 14:05:58 <helo> b-itcoinssg: think of a transaction as melting down all of the input coin, and recasting into new outputs that add up <= the sum of the inputs (if <, the rest is fee to miners)
 633 2014-09-10 14:06:30 <b-itcoinssg> ok
 634 2014-09-10 14:07:22 <b-itcoinssg> I see, and can you tell me the purpose of that? Is it for satisfying a security issue or something?
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 636 2014-09-10 14:07:48 <helo> the inputs are all consumed entirely and permanently, and can be forgotten by a node keeping track of all bitcoin that is available to spend
 637 2014-09-10 14:08:29 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: it simplifies implementation, it does not unnecessarily incentivize address reuse (which is bad for privacy), and it prevents the attack you just described
 638 2014-09-10 14:08:58 <b-itcoinssg> I see
 639 2014-09-10 14:09:16 * helo realizes this is -dev, bows out
 640 2014-09-10 14:14:00 <b-itcoinssg> does discouraging reuse of an address have a security aspect to it to? or is it solely a obfuscation of identity?
 641 2014-09-10 14:16:37 <sipa> there is a small actual security (theft protection) benefit
 642 2014-09-10 14:16:55 <sipa> but it's mostly privacy
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 644 2014-09-10 14:18:44 <b-itcoinssg> ok
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 651 2014-09-10 14:22:27 <andytoshi> b-itcoinssg: first page of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-faq.pdf might be helpful to you, it says basically what sipa just did
 652 2014-09-10 14:22:49 <b-itcoinssg> andytoshi:thanks!
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 662 2014-09-10 14:40:11 <b-itcoinssg> when people speak of an used address, do they mean one whose public key has not been broadcasted right? i.e. address A (has received 1 tx, but never spent) is just as unused as address B(that has had received 1,000,000 also never spent) ?
 663 2014-09-10 14:40:44 <b-itcoinssg> 1,000,000 separate txs*
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 667 2014-09-10 14:41:16 <sipa> yes
 668 2014-09-10 14:41:33 <sipa> well, no
 669 2014-09-10 14:41:39 <b-itcoinssg> oh?
 670 2014-09-10 14:41:49 <sipa> sending two different transactions to the same address is also reuse
 671 2014-09-10 14:41:53 <sipa> without any spending
 672 2014-09-10 14:42:13 <sipa> because it links those two transactions
 673 2014-09-10 14:42:24 <sipa> which can help with identifying owners
 674 2014-09-10 14:42:30 <b-itcoinssg> ahhh, I see
 675 2014-09-10 14:43:04 <b-itcoinssg> and in terms of security they would be the same however, right?
 676 2014-09-10 14:44:01 <mr_burdell> what would the recommended way be to put up a donation address for example?
 677 2014-09-10 14:44:07 <mr_burdell> stealth type addresses?
 678 2014-09-10 14:44:54 <sipa> yup
 679 2014-09-10 14:45:09 <sipa> if you need the ability for anonymous donations
 680 2014-09-10 14:45:34 <sipa> otherwise you can use the payment protocol, and just have a new key negotiated for every transaction
 681 2014-09-10 14:48:21 <b-itcoinssg> when a set amount of coins are generated during the mining of a block, is that amount also enforced by the network. I mean, if someone conducted a 51% attack, can they dictate how many coins were generated for the next block?
 682 2014-09-10 14:48:21 brisque has joined
 683 2014-09-10 14:49:01 <sipa> no
 684 2014-09-10 14:49:16 <b-itcoinssg> how is the coin generation process enforced?
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 686 2014-09-10 14:49:37 <sipa> by considering blocks that don't obey the rules invalid
 687 2014-09-10 14:49:50 <mr_burdell> validation of a block checks that it doesn't pay out too much in the coinbase tx
 688 2014-09-10 14:49:54 <sipa> every full node in the network independently verifies all rules
 689 2014-09-10 14:50:25 <sipa> the only thing left for the majority hashrate to decide is the order of otherwise valid transactions - up to delaying them indefinitely
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 691 2014-09-10 14:50:44 <b-itcoinssg> I see, what happens if the nodes, even ones that are not mining, come to a disagreement about the rules
 692 2014-09-10 14:50:46 <sipa> (and, in case of a 51% attack, changing this order retroactively)
 693 2014-09-10 14:50:52 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: the network splits
 694 2014-09-10 14:50:54 <sipa> very bad
 695 2014-09-10 14:51:21 <sipa> every coin that existed before the split can then be spent once on each side of the split
 696 2014-09-10 14:51:32 <b-itcoinssg> I see
 697 2014-09-10 14:51:37 <b-itcoinssg> that is interesting
 698 2014-09-10 14:52:02 <b-itcoinssg> and then who dictates with one is the right, what would be the word for it parrallel branch???
 699 2014-09-10 14:52:17 <sipa> each side will consider their side right of course
 700 2014-09-10 14:52:39 <sipa> the only way it can be resolved is by one side changing their mind (or their implementation, if it was just because of a bug)
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 703 2014-09-10 14:53:00 <b-itcoinssg> I see, they would kinda be different coins in sense Bitcoin1 and Bitcoin2 if you will.
 704 2014-09-10 14:53:06 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: it's called a blockchain fork
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 707 2014-09-10 14:53:25 <b-itcoinssg> ah ok
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 709 2014-09-10 14:54:04 <sipa> note that occasional and temporary forks (which are not the result of disagreement but just because of network latency) are normal and happen all the time
 710 2014-09-10 14:54:12 <b-itcoinssg> is that what happened a few years ago with a hard fork that had to be enforced because of a important security patch
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 712 2014-09-10 14:54:31 <sipa> there has only been one hard forking change in recent history, on may 15th 2013
 713 2014-09-10 14:54:44 <b-itcoinssg> ok
 714 2014-09-10 14:54:46 <sipa> which was removing a temporary rule to make 0.8 compatible with 0.7
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 716 2014-09-10 14:55:05 <sipa> as it turned out, the new database layer in 0.8 accepted some blocks that 0.7 (unintentionally didn't)
 717 2014-09-10 14:55:12 <b-itcoinssg> oops
 718 2014-09-10 14:55:34 <sipa> which shows a very interesting property of consensus systems: even though 0.7 was the version with the bug, it was 0.8 that was wrong for not doing the same as the rest of the network
 719 2014-09-10 14:55:49 <sipa> consensus is more important than correctness
 720 2014-09-10 14:56:23 <b-itcoinssg> right, this is fascinating stuff
 721 2014-09-10 14:58:04 <brisque> b-itcoinssg: you might do well to read the whitepaper. http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
 722 2014-09-10 14:58:49 <b-itcoinssg> brisque: I've read that several times, I couldn't find some of the answers to these questions
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 724 2014-09-10 14:59:11 <andytoshi> b-itcoinssg: section 6 of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf goes into a bit more detail (including talking about some altcoins which have had accidental forks due to bad changes)
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 728 2014-09-10 14:59:32 <b-itcoinssg> ok, so in fairy land, let's say someone bought 60% of the network including nodes that don't mine, just to create their own rules and a seperate blockchain fork. what kinda of attack what that be called?
 729 2014-09-10 14:59:44 erska has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 730 2014-09-10 14:59:51 <sipa> the number of nodes you control is (almost) irrelevant
 731 2014-09-10 14:59:52 <andytoshi> "starting an altcoin with coin distribution copied from bitcoin"
 732 2014-09-10 15:00:03 <sipa> hashing power is relevant, as is economic power
 733 2014-09-10 15:00:21 <b-itcoinssg> andytoshi: thanks for that pdf, I'll take a look
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 735 2014-09-10 15:00:36 <sipa> you run a node because it allows you to get verified data about the chain
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 737 2014-09-10 15:01:16 <gavinandresen_> is there a way to get bitcoind to kick a peer?
 738 2014-09-10 15:01:25 <gavinandresen_> … or is there a patch floating around....
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 740 2014-09-10 15:01:43 <sipa> gavinandresen_: not afaik, but should be easy to add an RPC for that
 741 2014-09-10 15:02:02 <gavinandresen_> yeah, I’m just trying to save myself six minutes of typing
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 743 2014-09-10 15:04:56 <brisque> tcpkill works fine for me.
 744 2014-09-10 15:05:32 <b-itcoinssg> sipa: back to that scenario, if let's say 60% of what used to be Bitcoin is doing it's own blockchain fork thing, since it has consensus of more computation power, could it not stipulate that it is the real(now a little different) Bitcoin, because of its weight of consensus
 745 2014-09-10 15:05:59 <b-itcoinssg> if consensus is primier
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 747 2014-09-10 15:06:15 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: if the 40% includes bitpay, coinbase, some developers, some large online shops,... no
 748 2014-09-10 15:06:34 <b-itcoinssg> sipa: I see
 749 2014-09-10 15:06:48 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: if 90% of bitcoin miners decided that they want a 100 BTC per block payout, and switched overnight to new code that does that altogether, everyone would just ignore them
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 751 2014-09-10 15:07:07 <sipa> miners are _clients_ trying to build blocks that the network accepts, in return for a subdidy/fee
 752 2014-09-10 15:07:20 <sipa> they don't set the rules, apart from ordering of transactions
 753 2014-09-10 15:07:51 <b-itcoinssg> I see, that implies a # of human consensus outranking the computational consensus in a way doesn't it? Sorry if I'm being annoying
 754 2014-09-10 15:08:03 <sipa> yup, it absolutely does
 755 2014-09-10 15:08:06 <b-itcoinssg> this is genuine interest
 756 2014-09-10 15:08:21 <b-itcoinssg> cool
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 758 2014-09-10 15:08:29 <sipa> does that surprise you? if everyone decided that bitcoin should just be a frontend for paypal, and upgraded to that, fine, right?
 759 2014-09-10 15:08:37 <berndj-blackout> b-itcoinssg, don't let language fool you. "fork" and "original" are social/language constructs, not a matter of protocol
 760 2014-09-10 15:08:52 <sipa> it's people who are running code - of course they can decide to run something else
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 762 2014-09-10 15:09:29 <b-itcoinssg> berndj-blackout: bear with me, I'm still getting used to it.
 763 2014-09-10 15:09:38 <b-itcoinssg> sipa: right
 764 2014-09-10 15:10:02 <sipa> the hard part is not the 'upgrading'; it's the 'everyone'
 765 2014-09-10 15:10:09 <b-itcoinssg> right
 766 2014-09-10 15:10:32 <berndj-blackout> b-itcoinssg, sipa's 90%+ of miners have already "forked" bitcoin: when we started doing P2SH transactions. we're on the "fork" right now, and i'd be curious to know if there are any stubborn Bitcoin originalists left around who refuse to accept P2SH transactions
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 768 2014-09-10 15:10:57 <sipa> berndj-blackout: nope, it's the other way around
 769 2014-09-10 15:11:05 <sipa> p2sh is stricter than the original rules
 770 2014-09-10 15:11:13 <sipa> so anyone running old code will accept the current chain too
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 772 2014-09-10 15:13:33 <berndj-blackout> ok, so then i'mjust curious if there are refuseniks around who insist on making invalid (to us P2SH-accepting folk) transactions that are valid to them
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 796 2014-09-10 15:35:49 <b-itcoinssg> When the discussion of a node contacting another node via ip address to ask for a new recipient address was being discussed, were the only benefits related to obfuscation of identity or were there others?
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 799 2014-09-10 15:39:52 <helo> others
 800 2014-09-10 15:40:18 <sipa> it means you can attach metadata to the transaction, as you submit it directly to the receiver
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 802 2014-09-10 15:40:33 <sipa> and you instabtly kbow whether they accept it as payment
 803 2014-09-10 15:40:56 <b-itcoinssg> aahh i see
 804 2014-09-10 15:41:00 <sipa> and you can be relieved from the responsibility of (re)broadcasting on the network - the recipient can do that
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 806 2014-09-10 15:42:02 <b-itcoinssg> and the metadata: it wouldn't have to conform to any of the rules of the network, like size or public broadcasting right?
 807 2014-09-10 15:42:48 <sipa> indeed
 808 2014-09-10 15:43:15 <sipa> though the payment protocol specifies some specific fields (comments, refund address)
 809 2014-09-10 15:43:24 <b-itcoinssg> sure
 810 2014-09-10 15:44:17 <b-itcoinssg> have there been talks of re-realizing those benefits through other means?
 811 2014-09-10 15:44:38 <b-itcoinssg> would the community be interested in realizing those goals?
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 813 2014-09-10 15:45:25 <sipa> which goals?
 814 2014-09-10 15:45:40 <sipa> the payment protocol exists...
 815 2014-09-10 15:46:22 <b-itcoinssg> being able to attach metadata of arbitrary sizes and not waiting for network propogation for the receiver?
 816 2014-09-10 15:46:34 <sipa> yes, that is what the payment protocol does...
 817 2014-09-10 15:46:47 <b-itcoinssg> oops, lol
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 819 2014-09-10 15:47:13 <sipa> it means the receiver (or some proxy for it) needs to be online though
 820 2014-09-10 15:47:40 <b-itcoinssg> I thought there may have been some benefits of directly contacting the receiver via ip address that may have not been realized when that idea was abandoned due to security issues.
 821 2014-09-10 15:47:55 <sipa> oh, the pay-to-ip mechanism
 822 2014-09-10 15:48:00 <b-itcoinssg> yes
 823 2014-09-10 15:48:00 <sipa> thay was abolished ling ago
 824 2014-09-10 15:48:21 <sipa> the payment pritocol is a more modern versiin if it
 825 2014-09-10 15:48:28 <sipa> pay-to-url if you want
 826 2014-09-10 15:48:37 <b-itcoinssg> I see
 827 2014-09-10 15:48:50 <sipa> it fetches a payment descriptor from the url (which can have an on the fly generated address)
 828 2014-09-10 15:49:13 <sipa> you construct the payment (which includes a bitcoin transaction) locally, and send it back to that url
 829 2014-09-10 15:49:23 <b-itcoinssg> very cool
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 831 2014-09-10 15:50:51 <Kefkius> What version was BIP 0016 implemented in?
 832 2014-09-10 15:51:05 <sipa> 0.6 or so?
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 834 2014-09-10 15:51:35 <Kefkius> Cool
 835 2014-09-10 15:51:50 <sipa> 0.6.0
 836 2014-09-10 15:54:34 <b-itcoinssg> bitcoind does'nt allow you to query a foreign bitcoin address for balances, what is the rational behind it? It is prohibitively time consuming?
 837 2014-09-10 15:54:59 <helo> time/space, yes
 838 2014-09-10 15:55:45 <Apocalyptic> it's because addresses don't have a balance
 839 2014-09-10 15:56:02 <b-itcoinssg> I see
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 841 2014-09-10 15:57:15 <b-itcoinssg> Apocalyptic: yes I'm getting acquainted with that. How would you rephrase what I meat to ask?
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 843 2014-09-10 15:57:40 <b-itcoinssg> public key? leaf?
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 846 2014-09-10 15:58:57 <sipa> b-itcoinssg: you're asking for the sum of the amounts of the unspent coins assigned to a particular address?
 847 2014-09-10 15:59:07 <b-itcoinssg> yes
 848 2014-09-10 15:59:16 <b-itcoinssg> cool
 849 2014-09-10 15:59:23 * helo whines and points at listreceivedbyaddress
 850 2014-09-10 15:59:25 <sipa> bitcoind can't do that indeed
 851 2014-09-10 15:59:39 <sipa> you don't need it, and it would require an index by address
 852 2014-09-10 16:00:11 <sipa> if you're interested in an address, just record transactiins you see to it
 853 2014-09-10 16:00:45 <b-itcoinssg> right. I'm not complaining, just wondering what the exact rational was. I building a blockchain explorer of sorts and have to work with a separate db for that functionality.
 854 2014-09-10 16:01:08 <helo> if you need it for a particular address, there's importaddress
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 856 2014-09-10 16:01:23 <helo> it's slow, of course
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 860 2014-09-10 16:02:11 <b-itcoinssg> helo: yes, that's why I'm building a db, primarily for the speed
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 867 2014-09-10 16:09:37 <brisque> b-itcoinssg: be aware that what you're wanting to do is no small task.
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 869 2014-09-10 16:11:31 <b-itcoinssg> brisque: Yes I found that out the hard way. But lucky I've found something that already has work done to it, but could use an improvement
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 934 2014-09-10 17:09:58 <Kefkius> What version was BIP 0032 implemented in?
 935 2014-09-10 17:10:43 <sipa> none
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 939 2014-09-10 17:11:11 <Kefkius> Err maybe I'm thinking of the wrong BIP, BTC implements HD wallets right?
 940 2014-09-10 17:11:19 <timothy> bitcoin-core no
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 942 2014-09-10 17:11:26 <sipa> no
 943 2014-09-10 17:11:45 <Kefkius> Oh thanks
 944 2014-09-10 17:11:46 <timothy> maybe you are looking for the new multibit?
 945 2014-09-10 17:12:02 <Kefkius> No I'm wondering when extended keys got put into chainparams
 946 2014-09-10 17:12:25 <sipa> ah, well there was a partial implementation done a while ago
 947 2014-09-10 17:12:31 <sipa> but not integrated in the wallet
 948 2014-09-10 17:13:13 <Kefkius> Thanks
 949 2014-09-10 17:13:16 <sipa> we may do a bitcoin-key tool soon
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 951 2014-09-10 17:14:02 <Kefkius> Sounds fun
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 953 2014-09-10 17:17:30 <Eliel> hmmh... I'm trying to sync bitcoin-qt (0.9.2.1-trusty2 from ppa) and the sync process has now completely halted until restart 3 times.
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 958 2014-09-10 17:18:12 <Eliel> the first one was around when it said it's 1 year 50 weeks behind.
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 960 2014-09-10 17:19:12 <Eliel> debug.log was getting spammed about a small set of orphan blocks repeatedly when I looked at that.
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 991 2014-09-10 17:59:35 <bitnumus> Hi, is it possible to remove a single address/priv key from the address pool in bitcoin core?
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 996 2014-09-10 18:01:50 <brisque> nay.
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 999 2014-09-10 18:02:19 <bitnumus> hmm, any you can pick what addresses to send from etc yet either right ?
1000 2014-09-10 18:02:24 <bitnumus> without using console
1001 2014-09-10 18:02:39 <brisque> there is no send "from" in Bitcoin, so naturally there's no API for that.
1002 2014-09-10 18:02:49 fanquake_ has joined
1003 2014-09-10 18:02:50 <bitnumus> just wondering how to do away with something like this from a wallet you'd rather keep most of the addresses for http://blockchain.info/tx/f6ba58d7f4ea5158bde95ea0ff8ac8ea0b22e0eadd16ad767884ebc55fa1344e
1004 2014-09-10 18:03:28 <bitnumus> brisque, core just picks any key to use right? random or not so random, but user can choose this via the GUI
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1006 2014-09-10 18:04:02 <bitnumus> can't**
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1008 2014-09-10 18:04:26 <brisque> no, on a protocol level there is never a "from" address. the wallet will pick outputs from it's pool based on it's local rules. you can not pick a "from" addresses because there isn't one.
1009 2014-09-10 18:04:44 <brisque> you can pick which output you want to spend with coin control though, which is a different matter.
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1012 2014-09-10 18:05:05 <gavinandresen> See contrib/spendfrom/ for an example of using the raw transactions API to do what you probably want to do.
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1014 2014-09-10 18:05:19 <brisque> that spam is.. well it's hard to work out what they're doing but it's probably not friendly.
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1016 2014-09-10 18:05:38 <brisque> I would highly suggest burning it into fees if possible.
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1018 2014-09-10 18:06:17 <gavinandresen> Peter Todd’s dust-b-gone is best way to do that:  https://github.com/petertodd/dust-b-gone
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1021 2014-09-10 18:06:51 <brisque> actually, I know what they are doing. those are all addresses scraped from bitcointalk. they're sending dust to them in order to see what it gets combined with. it's attempting to identify wallet bounds.
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1037 2014-09-10 18:25:31 <jgarzik> brisque, yes old technique
1038 2014-09-10 18:25:37 <jgarzik> like 1sochi and the other one
1039 2014-09-10 18:26:24 <brisque> cute. wonder who thought spending money on that was worth while.
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1043 2014-09-10 18:28:37 <Adlai> it's much cheaper than paying humans to run surveys on adoption, and gives arguably more reliable data
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1045 2014-09-10 18:30:05 <amaclin> I think LaxoTrade just promoting his ponzi site. No need to trace funds.
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1047 2014-09-10 18:32:43 <brisque> shiny ponzi, but doesn't seem related to that spam transaction in particular.
1048 2014-09-10 18:33:02 <bitnumus> brisque, actually i just found this feature btw in core
1049 2014-09-10 18:33:08 <bitnumus> Settings > 'Coin Control'
1050 2014-09-10 18:33:12 <bitnumus> ;)
1051 2014-09-10 18:33:38 <brisque> we're talking about different things. there is no from address, but that's different from selecting outputs.
1052 2014-09-10 18:33:50 <bitnumus> i'm talking about inputs
1053 2014-09-10 18:33:56 <bitnumus> that is a from address
1054 2014-09-10 18:33:58 <bitnumus> ?
1055 2014-09-10 18:37:24 <earlz> Is there a "how to conduct a double spend attack" guide out there? lol
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1057 2014-09-10 18:38:28 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: no
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1060 2014-09-10 18:38:40 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: inputs don't have addresses
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1065 2014-09-10 18:41:06 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: Coin Control is an advanced feature, and its labels are misleading to novices
1066 2014-09-10 18:41:43 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: the Label/Address displayed are not related to the UTXO/coin itself
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1092 2014-09-10 19:17:46 * helo curses ubuntu's apport for stealing his core dumps of 1575c51
1093 2014-09-10 19:18:39 <helo> oh well, it was probably fixed already
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1102 2014-09-10 19:29:16 <bad_duck> If you are looking for a mailing list tool, you can look at mailman (self hosted, many options like public / priavate lists, archive etc.), cc gavinandresen / gmaxwell
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1230 2014-09-10 21:42:26 * lewellyn peers in.
1231 2014-09-10 21:42:29 <lewellyn> anyone around today?
1232 2014-09-10 21:42:41 <Luke-Jr> ?
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1235 2014-09-10 21:43:50 <lewellyn> i'm having issues with bitcoind on linux. strace ends here each time i start it http://www.greenviolet.net/paste/1410384840.html and it continues chewing more and more ram until it's killed (even if it's left sitting for days) and consumes as much cpu as it can.
1236 2014-09-10 21:44:11 <lewellyn> does that seem normal or expected or familiar?
1237 2014-09-10 21:45:03 <Luke-Jr> that link doesn't work
1238 2014-09-10 21:45:08 <lewellyn> bitcoin-cli, of course, says that the server is down.
1239 2014-09-10 21:45:16 <lewellyn> it should... O_o
1240 2014-09-10 21:45:33 <lewellyn> i just loaded it from a location not under my control and it works. :P
1241 2014-09-10 21:45:55 <Luke-Jr> how about using a normal pastebin?
1242 2014-09-10 21:46:10 Qatz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1243 2014-09-10 21:46:13 <lewellyn> which do you prefer, since you're the one asking?
1244 2014-09-10 21:46:28 <Luke-Jr> 0bin.net works pretty well
1245 2014-09-10 21:46:52 <lewellyn> (can someone else try that pastebin link btw, since it's extremely concerning if it's not reachable)
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1247 2014-09-10 21:47:12 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: it's reachable, just blank
1248 2014-09-10 21:47:51 <l_l_l_l_l> works for me
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1250 2014-09-10 21:48:00 <lewellyn> http://goo.gl/g3s2Mg
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1252 2014-09-10 21:48:54 <lewellyn> l_l_l_l_l: thanks. i was panicking that the server's really not serving content though the page is static and i'm getting no automated notifications.
1253 2014-09-10 21:49:35 <lewellyn> but anyhow, it's on both pastebins now. :P
1254 2014-09-10 21:49:51 <lewellyn> i'm concerned about that futex
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1258 2014-09-10 21:54:31 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: did you use strace -ff?
1259 2014-09-10 21:54:37 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: debug.log might be more interesting
1260 2014-09-10 21:54:50 <lewellyn> i have in the past. -ff wasn't terribly more interesting
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1263 2014-09-10 21:55:41 <lewellyn> hm. so it clears debug.log each start? didn't realize that. :P
1264 2014-09-10 21:56:15 <lewellyn> it'll have interesting data in a few hours, then. it's pre-allocating now. i remember it doing something after that and effectively hanging.
1265 2014-09-10 21:57:17 <lewellyn>   PID USER      PR  NI    VIRT    RES    SHR S  %CPU  %MEM     TIME+ COMMAND
1266 2014-09-10 21:57:20 <lewellyn> 29698 rm_bitc+  20   0 2226496 559076   6792 S 164.9 22.63  28:18.99 bitcoind
1267 2014-09-10 21:57:26 <lewellyn> just keeps growing :D
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1277 2014-09-10 22:10:30 <helo> hopefully i'll get a core if it crashes this time... just updated so maybe it's fixed. aborted with *** Error in `./bitcoind': free(): invalid pointer: 0x00007fd8a7a753e8 *** on 1575c51
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1297 2014-09-10 22:26:48 <gmaxwell> helo: def2fdb4b9b52fa908c11fe2f5a42ea04f8e9f11 fixed a bug that looks like that, which was just recently exposed (the bug was old but was masked by another bug)
1298 2014-09-10 22:27:14 <gmaxwell> helo: thank you for testing and reporting! if you updated and you're past def2f now, I expect it won't happen again.
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