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187 2014-09-15 03:52:51 <nickodell> Hi, I just submitted a pull request, and I'd like to hear any feedback you guys might have.
188 2014-09-15 03:52:55 <nickodell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4916
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317 2014-09-15 06:56:23 <wumpus> nickodell: I think it's overkill; I intentionally changed to use wildcards in 0.9
318 2014-09-15 06:56:27 <wumpus> nickodell: +not
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320 2014-09-15 07:00:36 <wumpus> in the well-defined notation for subnets (/x.x.x.x and /y) it is clear what to expect, wildcards were always a bad choice
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330 2014-09-15 07:20:14 <wumpus> I mean it's just a matter of taste whether you like 129.125.* or 129.125.0.0/16 better, but the latter is the same you'd use in firewall rules
331 2014-09-15 07:22:02 <gwillen> the former is more obvious to average people, to be fair
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333 2014-09-15 07:22:10 <gwillen> (and it's what we use in IRC banmasks)
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342 2014-09-15 07:25:13 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, irc banmasks are actually wildcards
343 2014-09-15 07:25:22 <phantomcircuit> ie
344 2014-09-15 07:25:27 <phantomcircuit> 192.168.*.0
345 2014-09-15 07:25:29 <wumpus> in IRC banmasks you can also do say *.google.com
346 2014-09-15 07:25:33 <gwillen> yes, that's true
347 2014-09-15 07:25:46 <gwillen> and if you want you can do 192.168.1*2.7, or something equally nuts
348 2014-09-15 07:25:49 <gwillen> since it's just string-matching
349 2014-09-15 07:26:05 <wumpus> in the case of *names*, wildcards make sense, but here we're pattern matching network addresses
350 2014-09-15 07:26:20 <gmaxwell> freenode's IRC servers can also do CIDR.
351 2014-09-15 07:26:26 <gwillen> but it is true that the wildcard syntax is much more obvious to anybody who doesn't work with networks
352 2014-09-15 07:26:43 <gwillen> foo.* is self-evident, whereas foo/24 is nonsense to someone who's never used CIDR before
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354 2014-09-15 07:27:22 <gwillen> (and of course the name "CIDR" is a throwback which describes itself as the opposite of a thing that hasn't existed in a decade. But that's neither here nor there. ;-)
355 2014-09-15 07:27:24 <wumpus> but if you're setting up allow rules, *you are working with networks*
356 2014-09-15 07:27:51 <gmaxwell> gwillen: not just equally nuts, but underdefined. e.g. does your 192.168.1*2.7 match 192.168.12.7? :)
357 2014-09-15 07:27:54 <gwillen> wumpus: sure, but that doesn't mean your a network professional
358 2014-09-15 07:28:00 <gwillen> you're, argh
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361 2014-09-15 07:28:08 <gwillen> it could just mean you want to open something to your LAN
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363 2014-09-15 07:28:30 <gwillen> the tragic truth is that many people in this era are LAN administrators involuntarily ;-)
364 2014-09-15 07:28:33 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, it will however confuse people when 1*.0.0.* doesn't work
365 2014-09-15 07:28:36 <wumpus> the most obvious use of wildcards is '*', and I'd like to avoid that one to be used easily
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367 2014-09-15 07:28:51 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: well, this particular CL avoids that, since it has a nice error message if you try that
368 2014-09-15 07:29:16 <gwillen> gmaxwell: in the case of banmasks I'm pretty sure it does
369 2014-09-15 07:29:17 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, still gonna confuse people i think
370 2014-09-15 07:29:20 * gwillen shrug
371 2014-09-15 07:29:24 <gmaxwell> gwillen: normal network masking behavior is almost, though indeed, not quite universally used. There are bazillions of guides and calculators online.
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374 2014-09-15 07:29:56 <gmaxwell> gwillen: it does, but thats my point, arguably it could go either way. 1*2 matching 12 is pretty surprising though!
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376 2014-09-15 07:30:03 <gwillen> it just always seems unfortunate to me when there's clearly at least someone who really wants a feature, enough to spend a lot of time writing it
377 2014-09-15 07:30:29 <gwillen> and yet it does not make it in :-)
378 2014-09-15 07:30:39 <wumpus> gwillen: I agree, the problem is if we end up with a lot of 'would be nice' features, which cost time to maintain and test
379 2014-09-15 07:30:45 <gwillen> (maybe not a _lot_ of time. But it's a very nice CL.)
380 2014-09-15 07:31:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc the correct way to do that is 192.168.1?*2.7
381 2014-09-15 07:31:03 <wumpus> if there is just *one true way* to provide the input it's harder for strange edge cases to come up
382 2014-09-15 07:32:15 <gmaxwell> or creates risks when you goof it up and accidentally allow the whole internet. (which people have done. :()
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385 2014-09-15 07:36:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, or more hilariously ban the entire internet
386 2014-09-15 07:36:41 <phantomcircuit> which i have done
387 2014-09-15 07:37:06 GAit has joined
388 2014-09-15 07:37:23 <gmaxwell> on IRC thats the consequence. which is funny. in rpcallow in bitcoin, the consequence is you allow the whole internet to steal your bitcoins. :(
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392 2014-09-15 07:42:05 <wumpus> it looks like nickodell is actually trying to do 'rpcallowip=*'... wonder why https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4894
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395 2014-09-15 07:45:11 <gmaxwell> erk. well if =0/0 we're almost always a misconfiguration, I'd say that the special case of =* might be not so crazy to handle.
396 2014-09-15 07:45:16 <gmaxwell> er weren't
397 2014-09-15 07:45:38 <Luke-Jr> ^
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399 2014-09-15 07:45:49 <wumpus> handle, as in print a rant why it's a bad idea? :p
400 2014-09-15 07:46:29 * Luke-Jr wonders how we behave if someone puts bits in the netmasked-off part
401 2014-09-15 07:46:46 <wumpus> they're ignored
402 2014-09-15 07:46:53 <Luke-Jr> maybe we should error in that case
403 2014-09-15 07:47:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah... if someone enters 0/0 as the netmask we should probably complain really loudly but have another flag to over ride it
404 2014-09-15 07:47:23 <phantomcircuit> something like
405 2014-09-15 07:47:30 <phantomcircuit> no-i-really-want-to-do-this
406 2014-09-15 07:47:36 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that's a good point though
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409 2014-09-15 07:48:27 <gmaxwell> I think there are valid applications of it, though they're specialized. For example, if you are completely delegating that control to an external firewall (which, perhaps you've automated its reconfiguration...)
410 2014-09-15 07:48:57 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: should at least be a test in subnet_test for that case
411 2014-09-15 07:50:18 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agreed, but for people with such advanced configurations, thinking of using ::/0 for 'everything' shouldn't be difficult :)
412 2014-09-15 07:51:06 <wumpus> or 0.0.0.0/0 but that allows only ipv4
413 2014-09-15 07:51:49 <wumpus> as bitcoin treats ipv4 as part of ipv6 there is actually no way to do the opposite...
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415 2014-09-15 07:53:12 <gmaxwell> sure sure, just not breaking it completely would be nice.
416 2014-09-15 07:53:35 <Luke-Jr> sigh, what is the dev ML becoming..
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418 2014-09-15 07:54:10 <wumpus> sure; at the moment just * (and other combinations with wildcards) don't work, but other ways of specifying 'everything' work. sp ot
419 2014-09-15 07:54:18 <wumpus> so it's possible but just a bit harder
420 2014-09-15 07:54:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: just ignore, or ban, please don't reply
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423 2014-09-15 07:57:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I assume it's not just mr eranig thats wtfing you?
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425 2014-09-15 07:59:16 <wumpus> I supposed it's "ggprodukcija kig"
426 2014-09-15 07:59:45 <wumpus> oh right :)
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458 2014-09-15 08:08:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it just seems to get worse and worse :x
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460 2014-09-15 08:10:07 <wumpus> does it? apart from lone posts such as this, I don't see a clear pattern of it becoming worse
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463 2014-09-15 08:10:35 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: perhaps things are not quite as they seem :D
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494 2014-09-15 08:13:47 <bardi_harborow> Is there a specific reason why the Bitcoin reference implementation was coded in C++? I understand that it is a way to get maximum performance, but by definition a reference client is designed to be for "reference", not for production use. It is extremely annoying having to dig through C++ code (many developers don't know C++, including myself). Maybe I'm just too lazy to learn C++ and I'm just bitching, but I would like an
495 2014-09-15 08:13:47 <wumpus> and even this occurence could be explained with language barriers
496 2014-09-15 08:14:41 <Luke-Jr> bardi_harborow: C++ is one of the most popular programming languages, and easily understood
497 2014-09-15 08:14:42 <lclc> bardi_harborow: look at an alternative implemenation if you don't like reading C++ code, e.g. btcd
498 2014-09-15 08:14:54 Madars has joined
499 2014-09-15 08:14:59 <Luke-Jr> lclc: something even more obscure than C++ :p
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501 2014-09-15 08:15:35 <lclc> Luke-Jr: Go is easier to read for Python etc developers afaik
502 2014-09-15 08:15:36 <wumpus> because the prophet satoshi delivered his tablets with the initial bitcoin code from the mountain encoded in c++
503 2014-09-15 08:15:38 <brisque> Luke-Jr: want to see my bitcoin client written entirely in 8008 assembly?
504 2014-09-15 08:15:53 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
505 2014-09-15 08:15:55 <Luke-Jr> brisque: no, I value my eyes
506 2014-09-15 08:16:00 <wumpus> brisque: yes! although I prefer Z80 assembly, but it's close enough
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508 2014-09-15 08:16:15 <Luke-Jr> I much prefer MIPS assembly.
509 2014-09-15 08:17:03 <brisque> imagine how little people could actually audit a MIPS-bitcoind
510 2014-09-15 08:17:08 <bardi_harborow> Are you try to tell me that `print('Hello World!')` isn't better than `#include <iostream> int main() { std::cout << "hello world!\n"; return 0; }`
511 2014-09-15 08:17:55 <phantomcircuit> bardi_harborow, if you dont know c++
512 2014-09-15 08:18:02 <phantomcircuit> you're probably not really a developer
513 2014-09-15 08:18:06 <wumpus> anyhow, bitcoind's c++ is quite understandable, as far as c++ code goes, compared to say boost...
514 2014-09-15 08:18:06 erasmospunk has joined
515 2014-09-15 08:18:11 * phantomcircuit runs from the inevitable flame war
516 2014-09-15 08:19:15 <bardi_harborow> That Go implementation is music to my ears! Thank you. However I still don't know what a struct is. (Sounds like some Googling is in order.)
517 2014-09-15 08:20:07 <Luke-Jr> bardi_harborow: a class without code.
518 2014-09-15 08:20:21 JackH has joined
519 2014-09-15 08:20:42 <bardi_harborow> So should I actually learn C++, is that worthwhile? (phantomcircuit: I do at least agree that bitcoind's code is good as far as C++ goes)
520 2014-09-15 08:20:53 <bardi_harborow> Luke-Jr: Hmm... And the point?
521 2014-09-15 08:21:00 <wumpus> bardi_harborow: let's start at point 1 first... what are you trying to do?
522 2014-09-15 08:21:37 zz_lclc has joined
523 2014-09-15 08:22:14 <wumpus> learning bitcoin deeply, from a high level, goes far beyond learning any programming language, there's also ECDSA math, theory about robust P2P networks, ... understanding source code is useful, but may not be the best starting point, unless your goal is to contribute to it
524 2014-09-15 08:22:26 <phantomcircuit> bardi_harborow, i have yet to meet a competent developer who didn't at least know the basics of c and c++
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526 2014-09-15 08:23:50 <bardi_harborow> wumpus: I understand most of the Bitcoin components. (Though I'm a little rusty as to which endian things are in.) I just don't know EXACTLY how the code works.
527 2014-09-15 08:24:04 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: but the guy didn't even mention trying to develop anything, so let's not start with judging his skill as developer
528 2014-09-15 08:24:27 <wumpus> although granted, this is #bitcoin-dev :p
529 2014-09-15 08:24:51 <Luke-Jr> at least bardi_harborow knows what endian is :p
530 2014-09-15 08:24:51 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, many developers don't know C++, including myself
531 2014-09-15 08:25:21 <phantomcircuit> lots of schools dont teach anything about c or c++ now
532 2014-09-15 08:25:22 oujh has joined
533 2014-09-15 08:25:24 <phantomcircuit> which is unfortunate
534 2014-09-15 08:25:41 <bardi_harborow> The biggest thing I have a problem with is the lack or a proper API. The only way I can talk to Bitcoind is RPC and by keeping my keys on a server. We REALLY Watch only addresses.
535 2014-09-15 08:25:44 <bardi_harborow> need*
536 2014-09-15 08:26:03 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: s/about.*//
537 2014-09-15 08:26:15 <wumpus> bardi_harborow: if you really want to read source code, you don't need to read the bitcoind code, you could also read bitcoinj, or one of the other full node or SPV implemenatations
538 2014-09-15 08:26:16 <lclc> bardi_harborow: use a blockchain service (or set up your own) for that, e.g. obelisk
539 2014-09-15 08:26:17 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, heh
540 2014-09-15 08:26:34 <Luke-Jr> bardi_harborow: what we really need are watch-only *wallets*.
541 2014-09-15 08:27:20 <wumpus> bardi_harborow: the code in git master (which will be 0.10 at some point in the future) supports watch-only w/ importaddress
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543 2014-09-15 08:27:53 <wumpus> bardi_harborow: there are also plenty of other projects which allow looking up addresses, such as bitpay's insight
544 2014-09-15 08:28:08 <bardi_harborow> lclc: I did try to con someone on BT into funding/helping develop a web blockchain explorer + API + wallet based on obelisk but no one took the bait.
545 2014-09-15 08:29:19 <bardi_harborow> wumpus: Oh, they got around to adding it finally? I was following the pull request at some stage.
546 2014-09-15 08:29:19 <brisque> not deceiving people might be a nice start.
547 2014-09-15 08:29:35 <bardi_harborow> brisque: Huh?
548 2014-09-15 08:29:39 <brisque> bardi_harborow: er, that's a very early feature.
549 2014-09-15 08:29:49 <lclc> there are already a few of those out there (blockchain explorer), so no point in writing your own IMHO. an Obelisk is the API. Wallets hm.. if you have an idea for a feature the others don't have maybe
550 2014-09-15 08:30:07 <brisque> > I did try to con someone
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552 2014-09-15 08:30:09 <brisque> don't do that.
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555 2014-09-15 08:31:50 <bardi_harborow> "con" is a metaphor indicating that people are reluctant to do so and therefore it is hard to convince them and you feel like a scammer because you have to try so hard. (Not sure if I'm explaining this properly, it made sense to me.)
556 2014-09-15 08:32:38 <wumpus> you meant it figuratively, but be careful with that word here, people are very sensitive to it :)
557 2014-09-15 08:32:46 <brisque> a "con" is a term used for defrauding people.
558 2014-09-15 08:32:47 <Luke-Jr> bardi_harborow: I think that is a niche aspect of your culture. Usually it indicates malice or deception.
559 2014-09-15 08:33:39 * bardi_harborow hides from the inadvertent flamewar he has created.
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564 2014-09-15 08:36:05 <brisque> unfortunate misunderstanding of English there I suspect.
565 2014-09-15 08:36:57 <wumpus> yes
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567 2014-09-15 08:41:46 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: re: #4919, so we were actually compiling the tests without the glibc compatibility?
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569 2014-09-15 08:42:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that one test, I presume
570 2014-09-15 08:42:18 <Luke-Jr> so, just Linux ARM
571 2014-09-15 08:42:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: right, thanks
572 2014-09-15 08:43:12 <wumpus> it's not that important on ARM as we don't distribute executables for that, still, it makes sense to be consistent (and the = was clearly intended)
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578 2014-09-15 08:46:38 <wumpus> I see this in the travis output: The command "if [ "$RUN_TESTS" = "true" ]; then make check; fi" exited with 0.
579 2014-09-15 08:46:46 <wumpus> does that mean the tests don't run at all?
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581 2014-09-15 08:47:58 <wumpus> I'm still getting used to travis a bit
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587 2014-09-15 08:50:36 <wumpus> ok, so HOST=arm-linux-gnueabihf and HOST=x86_64-w64-mingw32 only do a build, not testing
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589 2014-09-15 08:51:40 <wumpus> or the other way around - only *linux* run the tests
590 2014-09-15 08:51:49 <wumpus> eh, x86/x86_64 linux
591 2014-09-15 09:00:59 <wumpus> ok, commented on #4907
592 2014-09-15 09:01:44 <phantomcircuit> brisque, no that is actually an accepted use of the term in certain geographic areas
593 2014-09-15 09:01:56 <phantomcircuit> it is however ill advised
594 2014-09-15 09:02:19 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: just avoid it in bitcoin circles, because we're so used to actually getting conned :p
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596 2014-09-15 09:07:18 <phantomcircuit> wait what
597 2014-09-15 09:07:24 <phantomcircuit> tests are running on windows o.o
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599 2014-09-15 09:08:18 <wumpus> yes, running the tests in wine has actually caught a few bugs already, wine is stricter in windows API use than windows itself
600 2014-09-15 09:08:30 <phantomcircuit> ha
601 2014-09-15 09:09:52 <wumpus> what travis could add is also running the w64 tests (the old pulltester uses an ancient mingw, which didn't support 64 bit yet)
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608 2014-09-15 09:16:29 <phantomcircuit> so i noticed that the ckey bdb objects dont have a checksum
609 2014-09-15 09:16:46 <phantomcircuit> and as such are verified by calculating the public key from the private key when the wallet passphrase is supplied
610 2014-09-15 09:16:56 <phantomcircuit> this takes ages
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612 2014-09-15 09:17:16 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: this only checks one key, except the first time
613 2014-09-15 09:17:35 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, the first time the wallet is loaded
614 2014-09-15 09:17:49 <wumpus> no, the first time a passphrase is specified
615 2014-09-15 09:17:49 <phantomcircuit> but for huge wallets calculating the public key is extremely expensive
616 2014-09-15 09:17:56 <phantomcircuit> oh really?
617 2014-09-15 09:17:57 <phantomcircuit> huh
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619 2014-09-15 09:18:41 <wumpus> there is a recent commit changing that behavior; it used to check only one key every time the pass phrase was given, now it checks all keys the first time, and only one key after that
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622 2014-09-15 09:20:40 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, i tried it yesterday and it seemed like it was generating the public key in ram for all of the keys the first time a passphrase was specified to check for corruption
623 2014-09-15 09:20:53 <phantomcircuit> am i wrong about the reason for generating the pub key?
624 2014-09-15 09:21:55 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4670
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626 2014-09-15 09:22:07 <wumpus> (and discussion in #4011)
627 2014-09-15 09:22:38 <wumpus> and yes, it does that indeed as integrity check
628 2014-09-15 09:23:13 <wumpus> note that the original proposal was to check all keys every time, I already got that watered down to just the first time
629 2014-09-15 09:23:17 <phantomcircuit> hmm didn't notice that
630 2014-09-15 09:23:21 <phantomcircuit> wish i had
631 2014-09-15 09:24:45 <wumpus> as I see it the problem is that no one developing bitcoin core is actually using the wallet (at least with any serioius workload)
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633 2014-09-15 09:25:08 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, this should definitely be replaced with a simple checksum
634 2014-09-15 09:25:13 <wumpus> another one of my arguments for splitting it off
635 2014-09-15 09:25:24 <wumpus> we shouldn't be maintaining something we don't care about
636 2014-09-15 09:25:30 <phantomcircuit> GetPubKey takes about 250x longer than sha256d
637 2014-09-15 09:25:49 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: well there is an obvious reason to have verification slow...
638 2014-09-15 09:25:59 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, ?
639 2014-09-15 09:26:05 <wumpus> brute forcing
640 2014-09-15 09:26:12 <phantomcircuit> this has no effect on that
641 2014-09-15 09:26:33 <wumpus> the cheaper it is to check that the result of decryption is valid, the easier it is to brute force
642 2014-09-15 09:26:48 <wumpus> that's why a full ecdsa check is required
643 2014-09-15 09:27:13 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
644 2014-09-15 09:28:36 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, that's covered by the function SetKeyFromPassphrase
645 2014-09-15 09:28:51 <wumpus> checking all keys is indeed not relevant for this, but replacing the full-ecdsa integrity check with a sha256 checksum would be
646 2014-09-15 09:28:54 <phantomcircuit> EVP_BytesToKey takes a parameter that specifies the number of rounds
647 2014-09-15 09:29:24 <wumpus> that's only for converting the passphrase to a binary key, it doesn't avoid brute forcing the binary keys theyselves
648 2014-09-15 09:29:33 <phantomcircuit> ???
649 2014-09-15 09:29:43 <phantomcircuit> it's a 256 bit key used for aes
650 2014-09-15 09:29:53 <phantomcircuit> you gotta be kidding
651 2014-09-15 09:29:54 Dr-G has joined
652 2014-09-15 09:30:03 YoY has joined
653 2014-09-15 09:30:24 <phantomcircuit> adjusting the time it takes to generate a key from a passphrase is the only place that the time to verify should be adjusted
654 2014-09-15 09:30:48 <wumpus> I'm sure defense in depth is appropriate here
655 2014-09-15 09:32:07 <phantomcircuit> :/
656 2014-09-15 09:32:22 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, if the intention is to provide for a delay
657 2014-09-15 09:32:29 <phantomcircuit> then this is broken from a security perspective
658 2014-09-15 09:32:32 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
659 2014-09-15 09:32:40 <phantomcircuit> the implementation of GetPublicKey is about 4x away from being optimal
660 2014-09-15 09:32:50 <phantomcircuit> so an attacker has a 4x speed up relative to the normal user
661 2014-09-15 09:32:58 <wumpus> *only* 4x
662 2014-09-15 09:33:10 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
663 2014-09-15 09:33:12 <phantomcircuit> for pass phrase strengthening that is an enormous improvement
664 2014-09-15 09:33:30 <wumpus> and probably the secp256k library speeds this up?
665 2014-09-15 09:33:48 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, secp256k lib plus not doing it TWICE which is what the code does
666 2014-09-15 09:34:14 hearn has joined
667 2014-09-15 09:34:20 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, this is why the only correct place to put the strengthening is in the nRounds parameter to EVP_BytesToKey
668 2014-09-15 09:34:22 <wumpus> ok, feel free to optimize it
669 2014-09-15 09:35:44 <brisque> phantomcircuit: incredibly ill advised. it's always going to cause problem for the rest of the english speaking world.
670 2014-09-15 09:36:27 <phantomcircuit> brisque, the cool parts of the english world know what it means
671 2014-09-15 09:36:29 <phantomcircuit> woot
672 2014-09-15 09:36:31 * phantomcircuit runs
673 2014-09-15 09:37:10 * brisque whacks phantomcircuit with a wet trout
674 2014-09-15 09:37:35 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: it would be acceptable to put the sha256sum on the encrypted data
675 2014-09-15 09:38:08 <wumpus> so integrity can be verified at loading time without having the passphrase, and it wouldn't affect decryption that way
676 2014-09-15 09:38:28 saulimus has joined
677 2014-09-15 09:38:59 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, i was thinking hmac of the encrypted data using the passphrase as a key
678 2014-09-15 09:39:19 <phantomcircuit> doesn't introduce any new information
679 2014-09-15 09:39:35 <wumpus> because the whole reason for the integrity check is to armor against database corruption, no need for the passphrase for that at all
680 2014-09-15 09:39:35 <phantomcircuit> but it means the values cannot be verified at load time
681 2014-09-15 09:39:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sipa do either of you have an opinion here?
682 2014-09-15 09:39:56 <wumpus> yeah, just like now
683 2014-09-15 09:40:47 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, a simple hash leaks whether the db is corrupt to someone without the passphrase
684 2014-09-15 09:40:54 <phantomcircuit> im not sure we actually care about that though
685 2014-09-15 09:40:55 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: ... so?
686 2014-09-15 09:41:04 <phantomcircuit> it's worth considering though
687 2014-09-15 09:41:07 <wumpus> other databases such as leveldb provide internal hashes for that
688 2014-09-15 09:41:24 <phantomcircuit> that's the only thing we'd be meaningfully changing by adding a hash
689 2014-09-15 09:41:25 <brisque> phantomcircuit: it's sort of far fetched, but couldn't you use knowledge of one wallet encrypted with two passwords, one known, to easily recover the password without the KDF to use on a different wallet? :P
690 2014-09-15 09:41:35 <phantomcircuit> so it is worth considering (at least for a moment :P)
691 2014-09-15 09:42:07 <phantomcircuit> brisque, code only supports a single passphrase
692 2014-09-15 09:42:07 <wumpus> for checking whether the passphrase is valid, checking one key suffices
693 2014-09-15 09:42:15 <wumpus> *given* the database is uncorrupted
694 2014-09-15 09:42:23 <brisque> ie we know A and B are the same contents encrypted with different keys, and B and C probably have the same key but it's unknown, you can attack B very quickly.
695 2014-09-15 09:42:31 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, oh right, that's the other thing
696 2014-09-15 09:42:44 <phantomcircuit> with the current setup there is no way to distinguish corruption from incorrect keys
697 2014-09-15 09:42:59 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: there is -- some keys decode fine, others don't
698 2014-09-15 09:43:03 <phantomcircuit> so theoretically someone could resist giving up the key
699 2014-09-15 09:43:15 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, the master key could be corrupt
700 2014-09-15 09:43:21 <phantomcircuit> all keys would fail
701 2014-09-15 09:43:28 <phantomcircuit> a single bit flip
702 2014-09-15 09:43:51 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
703 2014-09-15 09:44:12 <phantomcircuit> that's a fairly strong argument for using an hmac
704 2014-09-15 09:44:14 <wumpus> we could armor against bitflips, with a custom wallet format
705 2014-09-15 09:44:49 <brisque> oh that would be incredibly amusing. imagine you have a key that's AES encrypted with a password. you decrypt it with the wrong password and use the resulting junk data as a private key. you now have the ability to give up one password and not expose the true funds.
706 2014-09-15 09:44:52 ak_ has joined
707 2014-09-15 09:44:53 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
708 2014-09-15 09:45:34 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, sure, but im saying that the possibility of a bitflip gives someone under duress the ability to prove a false pass phrase without the attacker being certain they're lying
709 2014-09-15 09:45:36 <wumpus> then again, it's better to just keep proper backups... or use a deterministic wallet, so that the smalll seed is the only thing you need to store and protect, not every key
710 2014-09-15 09:45:44 <phantomcircuit> which is itself a security feature potentially
711 2014-09-15 09:46:00 <phantomcircuit> (of course no real world attacker is going to believe you... but still)
712 2014-09-15 09:46:15 <brisque> wumpus: people will insist on adding "watch only" addresses though. having HD support in bitcoin core won't make the need for key storage go away.
713 2014-09-15 09:46:38 <brisque> well, I suppose we don't care about watch only integrity.
714 2014-09-15 09:46:43 <brisque> scratch that.
715 2014-09-15 09:46:59 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: that gets a bit obscure, but I agree it's amusing to think about, you could have multiple passphrases each 'containing coins' hehe
716 2014-09-15 09:47:47 <wumpus> then again, it also means that someone could make a typo (a very rare one) and end up with an empty wallet
717 2014-09-15 09:48:11 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, huh
718 2014-09-15 09:48:27 xenog has joined
719 2014-09-15 09:48:29 <wumpus> also the bitcoin core wallet format is completely unsuited to that kind of deniability... it friggin contains a copy of all of your transactions, unencrypted.
720 2014-09-15 09:48:41 <phantomcircuit> actually with hmac support this could be trivially modified such that each pass phrase was effectively it's own wallet
721 2014-09-15 09:49:01 <brisque> wumpus: did you know scammers use that?
722 2014-09-15 09:49:16 <wumpus> brisque: I'm not surprised
723 2014-09-15 09:49:30 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, well yeah it also contains a pubkey, what im saying is you could provide a false pass phrase and claim the encrypted master key is corrupt
724 2014-09-15 09:49:36 <phantomcircuit> all the transactions would be there
725 2014-09-15 09:49:40 <phantomcircuit> all the pubkeys
726 2014-09-15 09:49:51 <wumpus> brisque: it's a trade-off between security and convenience, those are always abused, but they're necessary nevertheless
727 2014-09-15 09:49:57 <phantomcircuit> everything would look normal
728 2014-09-15 09:50:04 <phantomcircuit> but the private keys wouldn't decrypt
729 2014-09-15 09:50:21 <phantomcircuit> there's no way to prove you're lying because literally a single bit flip could cause that
730 2014-09-15 09:50:32 <brisque> that wouldn't fly though
731 2014-09-15 09:50:46 <phantomcircuit> brisque, depends entirely on who your making the argument to
732 2014-09-15 09:50:50 <brisque> nobody would believe it, especially if you have multiple backups all with the same "flip"
733 2014-09-15 09:50:59 <wumpus> brisque: a part of the problem is that bitcoin core is a full-node wallet, so people are supposed to keep it running even if they're not directly using the wallet... so in the case that the wallet is locked, it still needs to display something
734 2014-09-15 09:51:24 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, what happens to the ui if you build with --disable-wallet ?
735 2014-09-15 09:51:30 <brisque> wumpus: hopefully one day that need goes away.
736 2014-09-15 09:51:41 <brisque> phantomcircuit: you get a sort of boring bitcoin core with statistics, I think.
737 2014-09-15 09:51:56 W0rmDr1nk has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
738 2014-09-15 09:52:06 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: you get just the debug window
739 2014-09-15 09:52:41 <wumpus> which is as close to a proper 'node UI' that we've got
740 2014-09-15 09:52:54 <brisque> wasn't there a pull which changed the UI to the "bandwidth" view?
741 2014-09-15 09:53:11 <wumpus> the debug window *has* the bandwidth view
742 2014-09-15 09:53:18 <wumpus> that's just one of the tabs...
743 2014-09-15 09:53:21 <brisque> oh, sorry.
744 2014-09-15 09:53:24 da2ce7 has joined
745 2014-09-15 09:53:33 <brisque> you can tell I don't use the GUI much.
746 2014-09-15 09:53:51 <wumpus> sometimes I'm afraid I'm the only one that does... sometimes
747 2014-09-15 09:54:08 <brisque> bitcoind-ncurses does the job though
748 2014-09-15 09:54:34 rfreeman_w has joined
749 2014-09-15 09:55:29 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, what are the block generation rules for regtest?
750 2014-09-15 09:55:32 <wumpus> in those dark times I think that just dropping all the GUI code, all the wallet code, would be the best way forward
751 2014-09-15 09:55:42 vmatekol_ has joined
752 2014-09-15 09:55:57 vmatekole has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
753 2014-09-15 09:56:00 <brisque> please don't. core is the only one that gets things right.
754 2014-09-15 09:56:15 <phantomcircuit> ah right setgenerate
755 2014-09-15 09:56:23 <brisque> most clients don't use compressed point keys, don't use KDF properly, don't do a single thing right.
756 2014-09-15 09:57:01 <Arnavion> Then there's people like me who use the GUI with --disable-wallet
757 2014-09-15 09:57:02 <hearn> i think bitcoinj based wallets should get those things right, at least. well how strong to make the kdf is a wallet-specific thing
758 2014-09-15 09:57:33 <hearn> lighthouse auto-tunes it to always take about 2 seconds whatever hardware you have. other wallets don't bother, i think. need to push them to incorporate that code.
759 2014-09-15 09:57:44 <brisque> is there a bitcoinj wallet that allows connecting only to a local node, is HD, and uses compressed point keys?
760 2014-09-15 09:58:35 <hearn> yes
761 2014-09-15 09:58:35 <wumpus> I should really appoing a 'wallet maintainer' and 'GUI maintainer' so that I don't have to worry about those anymore
762 2014-09-15 09:58:39 <wumpus> appoint*
763 2014-09-15 09:58:55 <hearn> well, at least the latest version of the library will (a) automatically use a local node when found, (b) can be HD and (c) it's used compressed keys for a while
764 2014-09-15 09:59:06 <hearn> however not all wallets have upgraded to the latest code yet, they're mostly still in beta
765 2014-09-15 09:59:26 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, er just a thought.. possibly regtest stuff should be a build time option
766 2014-09-15 09:59:37 <hearn> e.g. the Bitcoin Wallet for Android beta has all those points (you can specify a node to connect to). but it's still in beta
767 2014-09-15 09:59:46 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: why?
768 2014-09-15 10:00:12 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, with testnet/regtest an attack that can modify a single pointer can compromise a node
769 2014-09-15 10:00:28 <phantomcircuit> (in such a way that the node will still seem to work correctly)
770 2014-09-15 10:00:37 <wumpus> well, if you can modify a pointer, you can do much worse
771 2014-09-15 10:00:39 <phantomcircuit> seems prudent
772 2014-09-15 10:01:09 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, cant think of anything else which would be quite as easy
773 2014-09-15 10:01:29 <phantomcircuit> most everything else that's truly concensus critical is constant and probably in read only pges
774 2014-09-15 10:01:30 benrcole has joined
775 2014-09-15 10:01:30 <phantomcircuit> pageS*
776 2014-09-15 10:01:45 <wumpus> ELF plt tables
777 2014-09-15 10:01:48 <brisque> hearn: as far as I can tell there's little that's of use to me now, today though
778 2014-09-15 10:02:17 <hearn> right. but i guess within a couple of months there will be quite a few wallets that meet your criteria
779 2014-09-15 10:02:34 <hearn> although i'd note that the Core wallet is not HD
780 2014-09-15 10:02:44 <hearn> if all you want is "has full mode security and uses compressed keys" then existing bitcoinj wallets can do that.
781 2014-09-15 10:02:46 GAit has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
782 2014-09-15 10:02:49 <hearn> if you connect them to localhost
783 2014-09-15 10:03:11 <brisque> they don't use change though, right?
784 2014-09-15 10:03:15 <brisque> multibit at least does not
785 2014-09-15 10:03:38 <hearn> mostly not, no. that turned out to be incompatible with mass adoption.
786 2014-09-15 10:03:43 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, elf plt table is at a stupidly random address on modern systems
787 2014-09-15 10:03:48 <hearn> i don't think there's any spv wallet that exactly matches the behaviour of core, today
788 2014-09-15 10:03:56 <hearn> making one wouldn't be hard. it's just niche though.
789 2014-09-15 10:04:03 <brisque> what? how is change addresses incompatible with people using it?
790 2014-09-15 10:04:05 <hearn> or just wait for the HD wallets
791 2014-09-15 10:04:16 <phantomcircuit> trying to hit that from remote would be like trying to hit a penny on the moon from alpha centauri
792 2014-09-15 10:04:18 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: so is everything, we compile bitcoin with address space randomization with good reason
793 2014-09-15 10:04:37 <hearn> because people lose their backups and clone wallets all the time. random keys causes people who aren't specialists to lose money.
794 2014-09-15 10:06:04 <brisque> so have a system that makes them in the future like bitcoin core? compromising people's privacy for minor usability is one insane tradeoff.
795 2014-09-15 10:06:07 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
796 2014-09-15 10:06:22 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: anyhow - always compiling with testing support makes sure that tests are run... making testing an obscure build-time feature makes sure that no one runs them
797 2014-09-15 10:06:23 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
798 2014-09-15 10:06:50 <wumpus> and also makes it unclear what you're really testing, are you testing the original code or code especially built for testing?
799 2014-09-15 10:06:57 <hearn> no, it's exactly the right tradeoff that all wallet devs who have large userbases have arrived at. believe me, if you had to support hundreds of thousands of ordinary people who just heard about bitcoin on CNN, you'd do the same thing. anyway, like i said, it'll all be HD soon enough so then we can have our cake and eat it.
800 2014-09-15 10:06:59 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, hmm
801 2014-09-15 10:07:05 <brisque> I mean between bitcoinj's insane bloom filters and not using change address, there's no privacy to be had.
802 2014-09-15 10:07:14 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, well pCurrentBaseParams is a static so it's allocated in.. bss? i think
803 2014-09-15 10:07:17 <brisque> fine.
804 2014-09-15 10:07:34 <phantomcircuit> anyways that should have a large amount of entropy in the base offset
805 2014-09-15 10:07:37 <wumpus> #ifndef run_tests dosomethingsneaky() #endif :p
806 2014-09-15 10:07:43 mrkent3 has joined
807 2014-09-15 10:07:47 <hearn> the bloom filters are not "insane", they reflect that building a consistently false story to remote peers whilst staying within bandwidth limits is rather challenging and currently nobody is working on it
808 2014-09-15 10:07:48 <SomeoneWeird> :(
809 2014-09-15 10:07:50 <SomeoneWeird> you make me sad
810 2014-09-15 10:07:51 <phantomcircuit> i thought it was a heap var
811 2014-09-15 10:07:58 <phantomcircuit> er
812 2014-09-15 10:07:59 <phantomcircuit> stack
813 2014-09-15 10:08:06 <phantomcircuit> in which case it probably would be bad
814 2014-09-15 10:08:15 <hearn> turning up the FP rate at the moment would only raise the privacy bar slightly, but waste a lot of bandwidth and users time. using them most effectively needs more R&D
815 2014-09-15 10:08:50 <brisque> I don't think people are aware of just how revealing the filters are.
816 2014-09-15 10:09:04 <phantomcircuit> hearn, with HD wallets, how far do you walk down possible trees to identify IsMine() ?
817 2014-09-15 10:09:15 <brisque> hearn: if you know, someone, was to modify their nodes to dump the filters, they'd have lots of them by now.
818 2014-09-15 10:09:31 <hearn> the lookahead region is by default 100 keys
819 2014-09-15 10:09:46 <brisque> phantomcircuit: Electrum walks 5 empty addresses ahead, and then gives up, as a comparison.
820 2014-09-15 10:09:49 <hearn> brisque: i am quite aware thanks. i would worry more about passive interception by intelligence agencies, myself.
821 2014-09-15 10:09:52 GAit has joined
822 2014-09-15 10:10:22 <brisque> hearn: I'm doing quite alright on my own.
823 2014-09-15 10:11:05 <hearn> hm?
824 2014-09-15 10:11:09 <wumpus> well, at least usually intelligence agencies don't try to rob you
825 2014-09-15 10:11:22 <moa> not directly ...
826 2014-09-15 10:11:39 <brisque> wumpus: excuse me? I have no intention of robbing anybody.
827 2014-09-15 10:11:40 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, no but they do like recording things
828 2014-09-15 10:11:49 <wumpus> if you leak some information to a random peer, that person may be planning on robbing you
829 2014-09-15 10:11:59 <phantomcircuit> most of the current clients use of bloom filters basically announces to the world almost exactly which addresses are theirs
830 2014-09-15 10:12:00 <hearn> i'd give it an 80% chance that somewhere inside the nsa is a database mapping ip addresses to identities, and bitcoin addresses to ips
831 2014-09-15 10:12:15 <wumpus> I'm much more worried about that personally
832 2014-09-15 10:12:27 <brisque> wumpus: nothing to hide, nothing to fear.
833 2014-09-15 10:12:36 <phantomcircuit> as currently used by most spv clients
834 2014-09-15 10:12:51 <phantomcircuit> bloom filters are just an optimization over transmitting a plaintext list of addresses
835 2014-09-15 10:12:57 <hearn> wumpus: "that person" is most likely the other side of the world, and sees only an ip address. if you're worried about physically local attackers, i'd be more concerned about someone looking over your shoulder ...
836 2014-09-15 10:13:03 <phantomcircuit> the only meaningful difference is for addresses that never get used
837 2014-09-15 10:13:04 <wumpus> brisque: I'm not saying that... I'm not saying that you don't have to worry about intelligence agencies *at all*
838 2014-09-15 10:13:15 <wumpus> but in practice, crime and organized crime is much more likely to happen to you
839 2014-09-15 10:13:21 <brisque> phantomcircuit: it's surprising how many filters you can capture. even if they are not using bloom filters, Electrum servers are extremely noisy with the keys they are interested in.
840 2014-09-15 10:13:35 oujh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
841 2014-09-15 10:13:42 benrcole has joined
842 2014-09-15 10:13:58 YoY has joined
843 2014-09-15 10:14:07 <hearn> yeah, but what are you going to do with them? physically go mug someone? you would have better luck just goingt to a bitcoin conference and being a traditional mugger. watch out for the guys with the nice gold watches.
844 2014-09-15 10:14:14 <brisque> phantomcircuit: Electrum does this thing where it randomly selects a new server to query every time, so given enough reconnections they're bound to eventually hit a peer who cares to record it.
845 2014-09-15 10:14:16 <wumpus> and for that reason I encourage people to be wary of privacy in bitcoin
846 2014-09-15 10:14:19 <hearn> intelligence agencies are a "known unknown" - we know they exist, what they do, what they're interested in
847 2014-09-15 10:14:36 <phantomcircuit> brisque, yeah there's a reason bitcoin doesn't randomly reconnect to new nodes
848 2014-09-15 10:14:47 <hearn> random people collecting filters and linking addresses ..... ok. what motivates these people? what is their plan? how much money can they make by doing this?
849 2014-09-15 10:14:51 <wumpus> hearn: it could be physical, it could be to make you a target for a spear fishing expedition, or social manipulation
850 2014-09-15 10:15:12 <phantomcircuit> ha spear phishing
851 2014-09-15 10:15:15 <wumpus> basically you don't want to adverize LOT OF COINS BEHIND THIS IP
852 2014-09-15 10:15:18 <moa> honey pot?
853 2014-09-15 10:15:31 <phantomcircuit> that reminds me i need to write some simple program to remove that stupid .jar spear phishing malware
854 2014-09-15 10:15:40 NewLiberty has joined
855 2014-09-15 10:15:40 <phantomcircuit> av companies are at least 2 weeks behind on signatures for it
856 2014-09-15 10:15:50 <hearn> for end users just getting an IP address isn't that helpful. for businesses, sure, but then again, they can just run a full node
857 2014-09-15 10:16:25 t7 has joined
858 2014-09-15 10:16:36 <brisque> phantomcircuit: I was very amused when I found that feature. people also have a very bad habbit of making a connection through an anonymiser, making a transaction, and then connecing back with their real IP address.
859 2014-09-15 10:16:44 ribasushi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
860 2014-09-15 10:17:02 <wumpus> well I'm talking about people that have significant capital in bitcoin, sure, if you have 20 mBTC to buy a pizza, by all means go ahead broadcast your filters far and wide :-)
861 2014-09-15 10:17:08 <hearn> probably, encrypting p2p connections is the next big privacy win after HD. there are some research papers coming out soon on bloom filter privacy, but they only help a little bit. most of the issues are quite well understood, there's just nobody around to write all the difficult code required.
862 2014-09-15 10:17:32 <hearn> brisque: you run an electrum server?
863 2014-09-15 10:17:53 <phantomcircuit> hearn, err for bloom filters basically some constants need to be changed
864 2014-09-15 10:18:03 <hearn> phantomcircuit: no, sadly it's a lot more complicated than that
865 2014-09-15 10:18:05 <phantomcircuit> iirc the math for what they should be isn't super complicated
866 2014-09-15 10:18:27 <hearn> e.g. see the first and last comments on this bug https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=510
867 2014-09-15 10:18:31 <brisque> hearn: yes.
868 2014-09-15 10:19:10 <hearn> phantomcircuit: bumping up the FP rate is easy, it's one line of code for the wallet dev. but as anyone who has seen a detective show knows, there's a big difference between lying and lying convincingly
869 2014-09-15 10:19:15 <hearn> today bitcoinj can be configured to lie very easily.
870 2014-09-15 10:19:28 <hearn> making it lie convincingly, even when put up against a skilled interrogator, is much harder.
871 2014-09-15 10:19:55 <hearn> i don't know of any other clients/servers that do this sort of thing. TextSecure used to use bloom filters to retrieve phone book hits but they had to abandon it as the product got more popular due to scaling issues.
872 2014-09-15 10:20:22 <hearn> and i don't know of any products at all except bitcoinj where there has been real, academic research into how they do PIR
873 2014-09-15 10:20:37 <hearn> so this is fairly cutting edge stuff and it'll take a long time to get it totally right
874 2014-09-15 10:20:48 <wumpus> indeed
875 2014-09-15 10:20:51 <brisque> hearn: to be clear I don't have any intention of using or selling anybodies information. finding somebody who would actually be interested in it would be impossible, they'd likely be the sort of people who would have it anyway.
876 2014-09-15 10:20:58 <hearn> brisque: right
877 2014-09-15 10:21:56 <brisque> and it's sort of brainlessly easy to capture information, electrum in particular already has most of the logging stuff in place. by default it has commands for printing say, every IP address connected to you.
878 2014-09-15 10:23:02 <wumpus> it's easy to capture information; processing information usefully is much more involved
879 2014-09-15 10:23:43 <wumpus> ie, converting it to actionable information that one could sell
880 2014-09-15 10:24:28 <brisque> I don't think there's anything of value in a bag filled with bloom filters. if anything, you could make it all up and just sell junk, and nobody would be any the wiser.
881 2014-09-15 10:25:10 <wumpus> one bag of bloom filters please, thank you
882 2014-09-15 10:25:16 <phantomcircuit> hearn, basically the problem is that the bloom filter is updated when a positive result is transmitted
883 2014-09-15 10:25:27 <phantomcircuit> false positives dont result in that update
884 2014-09-15 10:25:37 <hearn> i think there's value to the NSA, sorta. according to some weak definition of "value". because they want to have a map of everyone's financial transactions, and unlike other actors, they already have databases of IPs to facebook profiles, IPs to email addresses, email addresses to real world identities etc
885 2014-09-15 10:25:40 <phantomcircuit> or they do and you get more crap as the filter tends towards 1
886 2014-09-15 10:25:41 hemry has joined
887 2014-09-15 10:25:45 <hearn> phantomcircuit: well there's a bunch of problems
888 2014-09-15 10:26:08 <hearn> phantomcircuit: e.g. the remote node can currently deviate from the protocol and send you transactions that were not actually matching the filter to drive up the apparent FP rate and thus drive down the noisyness of the filter. that one is easy to fix
889 2014-09-15 10:26:28 <hearn> phantomcircuit: but there are others. yes the core problem is that if you want false positives, you have to keep consistently wanting them, or else it becomes apparent they were FPs
890 2014-09-15 10:26:34 <hearn> now what happens if your filter hits satoshidice addresses?
891 2014-09-15 10:26:43 <phantomcircuit> you cry and go home
892 2014-09-15 10:26:49 <brisque> hearn: there's little to no value in the quantity of information I have. somebody with the power to make hundreds of nodes and make them all sniff and cross report? sure then there's a problem.
893 2014-09-15 10:26:54 <phantomcircuit> hearn,
894 2014-09-15 10:26:56 <wumpus> it comes to a full stop
895 2014-09-15 10:27:05 <hearn> you need to watch the FPs coming back, understand which ones are using most of your bandwidth quota, then re-generate the bloom filter including the FPs that didn't contribute much and dropping those that did, in an attempt to get back under your bandwidth limit
896 2014-09-15 10:27:23 <hearn> currently bitcoinj doesn't even *have* a bandwidth targeting API
897 2014-09-15 10:27:33 <hearn> the wallets don't even tell it, you're on DSL, you're on 3G, etc
898 2014-09-15 10:28:01 <hearn> the only API wallets have is "target an FP rate of X%" but that's totally useless, because X% FP rate results in dramatically more bandwidth usage in later parts of the chain to earlier parts, etc
899 2014-09-15 10:28:13 <hearn> the actual resource you want to target is bytes/second. but this is all a lot of complex code.
900 2014-09-15 10:28:23 <brisque> hearn: you also need to retain your bloom filters. if you add different junk on every launch, it's easy to just intersect them and find the real filter.
901 2014-09-15 10:28:26 <hearn> and HD wallets were a much bigger and more important privacy win, so that (+lighthouse) is what i worked on this summer
902 2014-09-15 10:28:43 <hearn> brisque: right. they need to be persisted to disk, or you need to hope you just pick different peers each time.
903 2014-09-15 10:28:51 <hearn> there's lots that must be done
904 2014-09-15 10:29:02 <brisque> deterministic filter junk?
905 2014-09-15 10:29:15 volante has joined
906 2014-09-15 10:29:17 <hearn> now from my POV encryption is a lower hanging fruit. means the NSA can't just suck up and intersect every filter they see with a few MapReduces, which they are easily capable of.
907 2014-09-15 10:29:39 <hearn> they'd have to run nodes if they wanted to get that data back, and then it's costing them money (and that money they spend benefits us because they're running nodes), and they still can't get as much visibility
908 2014-09-15 10:29:42 <hearn> plus they run the risk of detection
909 2014-09-15 10:30:05 <brisque> with what exactly though. if openssl is going away you can't use it for encryption.
910 2014-09-15 10:30:14 <hearn> once the wires are encrypted it makes sense to go back and try to scramble filters better.
911 2014-09-15 10:30:25 <hearn> probably just AES + HMAC + ECDH at the start.
912 2014-09-15 10:30:36 <brisque> and plus, detection means nothing, what about that fake tor node that connected to every single node on the network? sure that was detected, but we can't do anything but sit back and say "weird"
913 2014-09-15 10:30:54 <hearn> right, value of detection is low if only because their response would be "yeah, we're spying on you, suck it up"
914 2014-09-15 10:31:01 <hearn> but those guys lurrrve secrecy.
915 2014-09-15 10:31:19 <hearn> it's sort of hard coded into their culture. so forcing them to weaken it at least tips the playing field a little, which is all we can do ultimately
916 2014-09-15 10:31:24 <hearn> anyway i have to go now. have a nice afternoon chaps.
917 2014-09-15 10:32:13 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
918 2014-09-15 10:33:42 <phantomcircuit> how are hd wallets a privacy win?
919 2014-09-15 10:33:47 <brisque> speaking of secp256k1, the benchmark tool sort of fails for me.
920 2014-09-15 10:34:24 <brisque> phantomcircuit: most people just use the one address over and over. all it takes is a good scrape of bitcointalk to identify a very large portion of all addresses in use.
921 2014-09-15 10:34:28 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: shouldn't matter for privcacy at all
922 2014-09-15 10:34:35 mrkent3 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
923 2014-09-15 10:36:13 erasmospunk has joined
924 2014-09-15 10:36:27 <wumpus> if someone on the outside can see how you generate your private keys, there is much more wrong than privacy
925 2014-09-15 10:36:52 llllllllll has joined
926 2014-09-15 10:37:12 <brisque> in the case of Multibit, HD means it'll actually use more than one key though
927 2014-09-15 10:37:12 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
928 2014-09-15 10:37:44 <wumpus> lol
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930 2014-09-15 10:37:57 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, that's what i was thinking which is why im confused by mikes statement
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932 2014-09-15 10:38:15 <phantomcircuit> if anything they're potentially worse than random keys
933 2014-09-15 10:38:49 <brisque> what he means is "use more than one address for the whole wallet".
934 2014-09-15 10:38:58 <brisque> because that's a new, novel thing.
935 2014-09-15 10:39:28 <phantomcircuit> oh right
936 2014-09-15 10:39:45 <phantomcircuit> he means it's better than what is happening with bitcoinj based wallet currently
937 2014-09-15 10:39:47 <phantomcircuit> shrug
938 2014-09-15 10:40:04 phoenix53 has joined
939 2014-09-15 10:40:23 <brisque> adding encryption to the p2p protocol is unlikely though, right?
940 2014-09-15 10:40:37 <brisque> I mean without openssl that's a fair chunk of code to write, and get right.
941 2014-09-15 10:41:10 <phantomcircuit> brisque, actually it could be done fairly trivially today
942 2014-09-15 10:41:16 <phantomcircuit> it wouldn't be secure against mitm at all
943 2014-09-15 10:41:22 <phantomcircuit> but it's never going to be
944 2014-09-15 10:41:23 <phantomcircuit> so who cares
945 2014-09-15 10:41:32 <brisque> how would it be done?
946 2014-09-15 10:41:58 <phantomcircuit> just slap unauthenticated tls on there
947 2014-09-15 10:42:02 <brisque> basic AES, key in the addr message?
948 2014-09-15 10:42:20 <phantomcircuit> version/version both peers advertise tls flag? cool we start talking tls
949 2014-09-15 10:43:10 <phantomcircuit> only issue is the message handling is in a separate thread from the networking code
950 2014-09-15 10:43:16 <phantomcircuit> so that could have some timing issues
951 2014-09-15 10:43:27 skinnkavaj has joined
952 2014-09-15 10:43:32 <phantomcircuit> actually no that should be pretty easy to do
953 2014-09-15 10:44:02 <wumpus> curvecp would be a possible alternative to tls
954 2014-09-15 10:44:05 ribasushi has joined
955 2014-09-15 10:44:19 <brisque> what cipher implementation would it use? can't have too much baggage.
956 2014-09-15 10:44:42 <brisque> assume openssl is dodo.
957 2014-09-15 10:44:51 <moa> zmq ?
958 2014-09-15 10:45:04 <phantomcircuit> moa, no
959 2014-09-15 10:45:06 <phantomcircuit> just
960 2014-09-15 10:45:07 <phantomcircuit> no
961 2014-09-15 10:45:09 <wumpus> zmq uses curvecp
962 2014-09-15 10:45:13 <wumpus> but it's not the same thing.
963 2014-09-15 10:45:17 <moa> :)
964 2014-09-15 10:45:53 <phantomcircuit> er
965 2014-09-15 10:46:06 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, if stdout stalls and printtoconsole is specified
966 2014-09-15 10:46:12 <phantomcircuit> the thread stalls
967 2014-09-15 10:46:18 <phantomcircuit> that's nasty
968 2014-09-15 10:46:54 <wumpus> anyhow - optionally encrypting the P2P protocol is a possible future direction, it avoids passive interception at a large scale
969 2014-09-15 10:47:21 <brisque> phantomcircuit: you also get weird happening if your -blocknotify gets backlogged
970 2014-09-15 10:48:09 <wumpus> in itself it doesn't do anything against targeted attacks, although a step further nodes could be told to trust specific other nodes with certain public keys
971 2014-09-15 10:48:11 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
972 2014-09-15 10:49:13 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: I much prefer tail debug.log
973 2014-09-15 10:49:35 <phantomcircuit> normally that's what i do
974 2014-09-15 10:49:43 ThomasV has joined
975 2014-09-15 10:49:44 <phantomcircuit> but im adding/removing print statements fairly rapidly
976 2014-09-15 10:49:51 <phantomcircuit> so killall etc gets annoying fast
977 2014-09-15 10:49:59 <wumpus> the valid use of printtoconsole is to log to systemd, for example, which doesn't block
978 2014-09-15 10:51:04 <wumpus> if you use it to log to a terminal... well, only do that for troubleshooting
979 2014-09-15 10:52:22 <phantomcircuit> 2014-09-15 10:45:18 valRequest.type() == obj_type 1
980 2014-09-15 10:52:22 <phantomcircuit> 2014-09-15 10:45:33 keypool added key 123270, size=100
981 2014-09-15 10:52:37 <phantomcircuit> er
982 2014-09-15 10:52:38 <phantomcircuit> 2014-09-15 10:44:49 1...2...3...SetCrypted()
983 2014-09-15 10:52:38 <phantomcircuit> 2014-09-15 10:45:18 valRequest.type() == obj_type 1
984 2014-09-15 10:52:38 <phantomcircuit> 2014-09-15 10:45:33 keypool added key 123270, size=100
985 2014-09-15 10:52:58 lifeofcray has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
986 2014-09-15 10:53:20 <phantomcircuit> 0.35694005
987 2014-09-15 10:53:24 lifeofcray has joined
988 2014-09-15 10:53:35 <phantomcircuit> so that's a single point multi roughly
989 2014-09-15 10:53:53 sebicas_ has joined
990 2014-09-15 10:53:54 <phantomcircuit> (that's ms per key)
991 2014-09-15 10:54:08 <wumpus> you've added a -logtoirc option now? ;)
992 2014-09-15 10:55:09 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, not yet
993 2014-09-15 10:55:17 <phantomcircuit> (it helps in logs to have the actual info)
994 2014-09-15 10:55:29 <phantomcircuit> (yes you reading these logs.. that was for you!)
995 2014-09-15 10:55:46 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
996 2014-09-15 10:56:14 knotwork__ has joined
997 2014-09-15 10:56:39 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, im trying to break performance in the wallet code
998 2014-09-15 10:56:52 <phantomcircuit> so far the only thing that's an issue is the initial decryption
999 2014-09-15 10:56:53 sebicas has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1002 2014-09-15 10:57:51 <wumpus> yes, as said, using ecdsa to verify database integrity is probably not the best idea
1003 2014-09-15 10:58:25 <phantomcircuit> my point was that so far all of the rest of the code is doing very well
1004 2014-09-15 10:58:38 <wumpus> ok that's nice!
1005 2014-09-15 10:58:55 <phantomcircuit> im generating 100 transactions with 1000 outputs of random sizes then a block goto 1
1006 2014-09-15 10:59:52 <phantomcircuit> once the keys are decrypted the wallet flush is the slowest part
1007 2014-09-15 11:00:26 <wumpus> that makes sense
1008 2014-09-15 11:01:02 <wumpus> the wallet flush forces berkeleydb to clean up its intermediate data files and make the wallet.dat self-contained, that's probably not a fast operation
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1010 2014-09-15 11:02:37 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, with 250k active keys it's only taking about 100ms (im cheating and using a tmpfs though so it's probably 1000x faster than hdd and 100x faster than ssd)
1011 2014-09-15 11:02:38 <wumpus> it's more than just 'flush to disk'
1012 2014-09-15 11:03:15 <wumpus> wow that's pretty fast
1013 2014-09-15 11:03:45 <michagogo> 13:46:34 <phantomcircuit> so that's a single point multi roughly
1014 2014-09-15 11:03:50 <michagogo> Erm, what is?
1015 2014-09-15 11:03:59 <michagogo> Oh, wait a minute
1016 2014-09-15 11:04:16 <phantomcircuit> + 11.01% bitcoind bitcoind [.] (anonymous namespace)::sha256::Transform(unsigned int*, unsigned char const*)
1017 2014-09-15 11:04:23 <phantomcircuit> any idea what that is
1018 2014-09-15 11:04:34 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, 0.354ms
1019 2014-09-15 11:05:02 <michagogo> phantomcircuit: did you say that shortly before 13:46:34 <phantomcircuit> so that's a single point multi roughly ?
1020 2014-09-15 11:05:06 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: that's the sha256 compression function
1021 2014-09-15 11:05:08 <phantomcircuit> 2014-09-15 10:58:22 Flushed wallet.dat 70ms
1022 2014-09-15 11:05:11 HANTI is now known as hanti
1023 2014-09-15 11:05:13 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, yeah
1024 2014-09-15 11:05:17 <michagogo> Gah, it's that bug again
1025 2014-09-15 11:05:28 <phantomcircuit> michagogo, what bug?
1026 2014-09-15 11:05:42 <michagogo> For some reason my client is not showing parts of history
1027 2014-09-15 11:05:47 <michagogo> At random, it seems
1028 2014-09-15 11:06:10 <michagogo> Usually killing the app and reopening it fixes it, but apparently not in this case
1029 2014-09-15 11:06:16 <michagogo> :-/
1030 2014-09-15 11:07:17 <phantomcircuit> huh
1031 2014-09-15 11:07:20 <phantomcircuit> it's 4m
1032 2014-09-15 11:07:21 <phantomcircuit> 4am
1033 2014-09-15 11:07:22 <phantomcircuit> derp
1034 2014-09-15 11:07:27 <phantomcircuit> oh well
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1038 2014-09-15 11:12:59 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, i think the wallet flush is actually cpu limited
1039 2014-09-15 11:13:07 <phantomcircuit> which is odd
1040 2014-09-15 11:13:16 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: maybe because you took out all I/O factors?
1041 2014-09-15 11:13:24 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, yeah
1042 2014-09-15 11:13:28 <wumpus> everything is CPU limited if you only work with tmpfs :-)
1043 2014-09-15 11:13:29 <phantomcircuit> and then i added a bunch of cpu load
1044 2014-09-15 11:13:40 <phantomcircuit> well
1045 2014-09-15 11:13:45 <phantomcircuit> i am looking for cpu time issues
1046 2014-09-15 11:13:46 <phantomcircuit> :P
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1049 2014-09-15 11:17:36 <phantomcircuit> huh
1050 2014-09-15 11:17:38 <phantomcircuit> so
1051 2014-09-15 11:17:53 <phantomcircuit> SelectCoins is called multiple times and the wallet is flushed in each
1052 2014-09-15 11:17:55 <phantomcircuit> for the same tx
1053 2014-09-15 11:18:39 <phantomcircuit> nvm
1054 2014-09-15 11:19:26 MaxSan has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1055 2014-09-15 11:20:16 <wumpus> the wallet is flushed in selectcoins?!
1056 2014-09-15 11:20:21 atgreen has joined
1057 2014-09-15 11:20:54 <wumpus> hmm I remember there was a pull a while ago that reduced the number of wallet flushes, maybe this one too?
1058 2014-09-15 11:20:58 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, no it's marked as dirty or something and the background thread flushes it
1059 2014-09-15 11:21:11 <phantomcircuit> im just looking at debug logs now
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1061 2014-09-15 11:21:23 <wumpus> here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4805
1062 2014-09-15 11:22:00 <wumpus> I suggest looking at cozz's pulls in general, he is doing a lot of work on the wallet code https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls/cozz
1063 2014-09-15 11:22:00 <michagogo>
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1065 2014-09-15 11:24:06 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, some of those commits have side effects :/
1066 2014-09-15 11:24:32 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: so, review them and comment
1067 2014-09-15 11:24:42 JackH has joined
1068 2014-09-15 11:25:09 <wumpus> that's why pull requests are not immediately merged, to give people some time to review them and come up with cases that they break
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1072 2014-09-15 11:28:29 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, can you review my sanity? it seems like 4805 is adding &walletdb in a bunch of places that it was implicit before
1073 2014-09-15 11:28:44 <phantomcircuit> i dont see a problem with this, but it seems unnecessary for the pr
1074 2014-09-15 11:30:02 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: yes, it passes the walletdb explicitly now
1075 2014-09-15 11:30:05 <wumpus> that's on purpose
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1077 2014-09-15 11:31:28 <wumpus> it gives the caller control over when, and if, flushing happens
1078 2014-09-15 11:31:30 EagleTM has joined
1079 2014-09-15 11:33:10 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, ah so i should go to sleep
1080 2014-09-15 11:33:11 <phantomcircuit> :P
1081 2014-09-15 11:33:27 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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1083 2014-09-15 11:33:44 <wumpus> then again it *does* change flushing behavior in quite a few places, and I've not audited every one of them
1084 2014-09-15 11:33:47 banghouse has joined
1085 2014-09-15 11:34:14 <wumpus> which is why I've only ACKed the concept, not the code
1086 2014-09-15 11:34:42 <wumpus> in general we have a complete lack of reviewers for anything wallet related
1087 2014-09-15 11:34:50 YoY has joined
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1092 2014-09-15 11:35:46 <wumpus> I've even sent a mail to the mailing list to ask at some point, and I've encouraged cozz to go looking for people himself, but it seems in vain...
1093 2014-09-15 11:37:11 <wumpus> so, at some point it's better to freeze the code as-is, apart from serious bugfixes
1094 2014-09-15 11:37:48 [Derek] has joined
1095 2014-09-15 11:38:25 <phantomcircuit> 4702 is scary
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1107 2014-09-15 11:54:30 <wumpus> it is
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1122 2014-09-15 12:20:32 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, wallet with 41.5k outputs in 1k transactions can generate a tx with 100 random sized outputs in ~20 seconds
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1177 2014-09-15 13:18:11 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, neat
1178 2014-09-15 13:18:38 <phantomcircuit> approximatesubset appears to be a good candidate for optimization
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1181 2014-09-15 13:18:54 <phantomcircuit> looks like it's causing a ton of branch prediction misses
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1239 2014-09-15 14:28:53 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i've been receiving spammy mails such as that privately with my address on bitcoin.org; i didn't notice that this one was to the dev list :)
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1252 2014-09-15 14:40:14 <chichov> if the current tx fee is 0.0001 BTC per 1000 bytes, then how come GetMinFee calculates it using the GMF_RELAY option and thus at a rate of 0.00001 BTC per 1000 bytes?
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1257 2014-09-15 14:44:35 <sipa> brisque: how does the benchmark tool fail for you?
1258 2014-09-15 14:44:54 <sipa> brisque: its output is a bit weird, but the runtime should be a good indication
1259 2014-09-15 14:45:40 <chichov> and furthermore, what is exact difference between minTxFee and minRelayTxFee?
1260 2014-09-15 14:46:30 <sipa> phantomcircuit: addingna checksum to encrypted keys probably makes sense; part of the original reasoning was that requiring an attacker to perform very different technologies (aes, ec multiply) woukd be harder, and this automatically gave us a sortof chdcksum
1261 2014-09-15 14:46:56 <brisque> sipa: I'm not even sure if I'm parsing the output right. it's meant to print valid/total number of keys right? the output for me is 0/1000000, so I'm assuming that's not correct. I'm not sure how to read the output of it otherwise.
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1265 2014-09-15 14:48:43 <brisque> so secp256k1_ge_is_valid is passing, but secp256k1_ecdsa_sig_verify is failing. not sure why.
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1268 2014-09-15 14:51:52 <sipa> chichov: for relay the fee setting is 1000 satoshi; that's just the assumed value necessary (_and required) for relay; as a wallet, when creating a transaction, you don't only want them relayed but also mined
1269 2014-09-15 14:52:07 Cray-on has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1270 2014-09-15 14:52:30 <sipa> brisque: perfectly intentional; i shouls change the output
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1272 2014-09-15 14:52:45 <sipa> brisque: the bwenchmark is trying to verify randomly generated signatures
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1275 2014-09-15 14:53:11 <sipa> brisque: anything else requires including signing (and thus signing perfmance) in the test
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1278 2014-09-15 14:53:41 <chichov> sipa: so at the end of the day, if you want it mined, you should orient on the nMinTxFee, which is 10000 Satoshis?
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1280 2014-09-15 14:54:35 <sipa> chichov: you should orient on what is necessary to get it mined; fee estimation will give much better guesses than a constant in the source code
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1282 2014-09-15 14:54:56 <chichov> sipa: how do I get my hands on that?
1283 2014-09-15 14:55:21 <chichov> sipa: I only know that you have ceiling(TxSize/1000) * nMinTxFee
1284 2014-09-15 14:55:21 <brisque> sipa: ah, makes sense
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1288 2014-09-15 14:58:30 <sipa> chichov: use git master
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1292 2014-09-15 15:03:27 <chichov> sipa: this whole thing is rather confusing. In the code comments it states that 1000 Satoshi / kB are for relaying and mining and 10000 Satoshi / kB are for sending. Which one is now used for calculating the fees when it should be mined?
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1294 2014-09-15 15:04:00 <sipa> chichov: 10000 is used when creating a transaction, 1000 when relaying/mining
1295 2014-09-15 15:04:16 <chichov> sipa: and why does this distinction exist?
1296 2014-09-15 15:04:39 <sipa> but to get a transaction you created mined, it doesn't just have to get be above the minimum, it competes with all other transactions for block space
1297 2014-09-15 15:04:46 ak_ has joined
1298 2014-09-15 15:04:47 <brisque> who controls bitcoin.org? 'cos it's down.
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1300 2014-09-15 15:05:55 <sipa> chichov: also, compatibiloty; not every node in the network uses the same relay fee setting
1301 2014-09-15 15:06:15 <sipa> chichov: you need a reasonable chance of being relayed by a significant amount of nodes
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1303 2014-09-15 15:06:32 <chichov> sipa: so you overestimate the costs rather than underestimate them?
1304 2014-09-15 15:06:38 <sipa> yes
1305 2014-09-15 15:06:51 <sipa> which is silly and leads to suboptimal fee prices
1306 2014-09-15 15:06:57 <sipa> so we need a free market there
1307 2014-09-15 15:07:09 <chichov> sipa: is the dust rule calculated with 1000 Satoshis then?
1308 2014-09-15 15:07:09 <sipa> which is what fee estimation enables
1309 2014-09-15 15:07:17 <sipa> yes
1310 2014-09-15 15:07:29 <sipa> iirc at least
1311 2014-09-15 15:07:33 <chichov> hm, and this fee estimation is some new feature? I haven't seen it around yet
1312 2014-09-15 15:07:42 <sipa> it is in git master
1313 2014-09-15 15:08:04 <chichov> can you give me a hint where to look for it?
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1315 2014-09-15 15:08:44 <sipa> i'm not very familiar with that code
1316 2014-09-15 15:08:55 <chichov> do you know what it more or less does?
1317 2014-09-15 15:08:57 <gavinandresen> chichov : txmempool.cpp, see the CMinerPolicyEstimator class
1318 2014-09-15 15:09:10 <chichov> gavinandresen: thanks
1319 2014-09-15 15:09:29 <sipa> chichov: yes, it tracks transactions in the mempool and observes how long it takes for them to be mined
1320 2014-09-15 15:09:53 <gavinandresen> See http://bitcoincore.org/smartfee/ for output from its estimation algorithm
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1322 2014-09-15 15:10:00 <chichov> sipa: sounds like adaptive fee calculation, cool
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1325 2014-09-15 15:12:29 <chichov> gavinandresen: the estimates seem a bit high, for ~0.0004 BTC you wait 6 blocks? seems high
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1327 2014-09-15 15:13:06 <chichov> I've seen transactions with 0.0001 BTC per kB being confirmed right away
1328 2014-09-15 15:13:30 <gavinandresen> chichov: zero-priority? They might get confirmed because they're high priority
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1331 2014-09-15 15:14:48 <gavinandresen> ⦠and if you're lucky and you send a transaction when blocks are randomly found close together, the second miner will accept a lot more low-fee transactions than usual.
1332 2014-09-15 15:15:06 <gavinandresen> If you have a magic ball that can predict that the next block is found quickly, that'd be a spiffy addition to the fee estimation code.
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1336 2014-09-15 15:16:02 <gavinandresen> all that said: I don't claim CMinerPolicyEstimator is perfect. Just that it is much better than the fixed-fees we have now.
1337 2014-09-15 15:16:04 <chichov> gavinandresen: what exactly is zero-priority? I'm only aware of the typical priority calculation formula
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1340 2014-09-15 15:17:17 <gavinandresen> chichov: zero priority is a transaction for which the priority calculation formula assigns a value of zero
1341 2014-09-15 15:17:38 <chichov> in which case it will be included right away?
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1343 2014-09-15 15:17:48 <gavinandresen> only if the fee is high enough
1344 2014-09-15 15:18:33 <gavinandresen> I'm saying that a 0.0001 BTC transaction that has a non-zero priority might be included in a blcok EITHER because it is high enough priority OR because the fee was high enough.
1345 2014-09-15 15:18:34 <gavinandresen> You don't know
1346 2014-09-15 15:18:36 <chichov> gavinandresen: you mean it gets in the queue where tx's are sorted by fee?
1347 2014-09-15 15:19:09 <gavinandresen> If it has a zero (or, really, very low) priority then you know it was included because 0.0001 BTC/kb fee was high enough.
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1351 2014-09-15 15:21:11 <chichov> gavinandresen: alright, I got it then. Most transactions I see floating around have 0.0001 BTC / kB and appear to be confirmed quickly though. That's why the fee stimates seem a tad high to me
1352 2014-09-15 15:21:28 <chichov> but it might be just my impression
1353 2014-09-15 15:21:56 <gavinandresen> chichov: Easy to test, if you're willing to spend a few bucks on transactions fees....
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1356 2014-09-15 15:23:07 <gavinandresen> (send a hundred low-priority transactions over the course of a couple days with 0.0001 BTC/kb fee, record how many blocks to confirm)
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1358 2014-09-15 15:23:36 <chichov> I was willing to do a few, but a hundred, ouch
1359 2014-09-15 15:23:47 <chichov> don't have that much change
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1362 2014-09-15 15:25:41 <gavinandresen> 100 250-byte transactions at 0.0001 BTC/kb would cost you $1.25 in transaction feesâ¦.
1363 2014-09-15 15:25:50 <chichov> I just browsed through a few transactions from a couple months ago and they all are <1000 bytes with ~0.2 BTC being sent with 0.0001 BTC fees
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1367 2014-09-15 15:26:03 <gavinandresen> chichov: okey dokey
1368 2014-09-15 15:26:39 <jgarzik> Nothing like a thread about masturbation on bitcoin m-l's :)
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1371 2014-09-15 15:26:43 <chichov> gavinandresen: hm, indeed. I'll do that sometime when I have found a way to do it automatically
1372 2014-09-15 15:28:05 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I almost hit send on a "hey guys, you're way off-topic" but then decided it was easier to poke delete rather than poke that tar-baby
1373 2014-09-15 15:28:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, as long as your poke is PGP-signed...
1374 2014-09-15 15:28:47 * jgarzik runs
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1377 2014-09-15 15:30:13 <chichov> gavinandresen: is there actually any service where we can observe the tx fee's per transaction during a certain period?
1378 2014-09-15 15:30:38 <jgarzik> chichov, you can do that yourself...
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1380 2014-09-15 15:31:17 <jgarzik> chichov, some sites have charts like https://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees
1381 2014-09-15 15:32:01 <chichov> jgarzik: unfortunately that's the cumulative fee. I'm looking for the average per transaction
1382 2014-09-15 15:32:27 <chichov> hey, but wait, they have the number of transactions as well!
1383 2014-09-15 15:33:20 <chichov> I see we get an average of 0.000163055 BTC
1384 2014-09-15 15:33:30 <chichov> per transaction
1385 2014-09-15 15:33:53 <jgarzik> chichov, can you code? pretty easy to get that out of blocks via RPC or direct scanning
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1387 2014-09-15 15:34:45 <chichov> jgarzik: yep, I can. But unfortunately you cannot extract the connection between confirmation time and transaction fee
1388 2014-09-15 15:35:02 <jgarzik> indeed
1389 2014-09-15 15:35:11 <jgarzik> you can get that from the bitcoind client
1390 2014-09-15 15:35:19 * jgarzik wonders how much fee_estimate stuff we export
1391 2014-09-15 15:35:22 <chichov> similarly to what is probably done with the new fee estimator, you have to observe the mempool and incoming blocks
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1393 2014-09-15 15:36:30 <chichov> jgarzik: you mean the new one with the fee estimator?
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1421 2014-09-15 15:53:27 <jgarzik> chichov, yes
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1480 2014-09-15 16:52:51 <phantomcircuit> interesting
1481 2014-09-15 16:53:01 <phantomcircuit> looks like coinselection scales pretty damn well actually
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1493 2014-09-15 16:58:09 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, speaking generally, or is "coinselection" some key algorithm or lib floating around?
1494 2014-09-15 16:58:42 <sipa> jgarzik: i believe he is talking about Bitcoin Core's "SelectCoins" implementation
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1496 2014-09-15 17:00:09 <jgarzik> that was my guess, but 'coinselection' seemed an odd construction in an out-of-the-blue comment
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1512 2014-09-15 17:17:29 <AlSzacrel> phantomcircuit: Does that have anything to do with the ticket that I asked about on Friday?
1513 2014-09-15 17:17:42 <sipa> not really
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1517 2014-09-15 17:19:39 <blast_> hiiii eveerrry boddyyyyy (dr nick)
1518 2014-09-15 17:20:53 <JyZyXEL> .
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1540 2014-09-15 17:32:12 <jgarzik> Interesting...... https://github.com/facebook/folly/blob/master/folly/docs/FBVector.md
1541 2014-09-15 17:32:14 <jgarzik> "Simply replacing std::vector with folly::fbvector (after having included the folly/FBVector.h header file) will improve the performance of your C++ code using vectors with common coding patterns. The improvements are always non-negative, almost always measurable, frequently significant, sometimes dramatic, and occasionally spectacular."
1542 2014-09-15 17:32:41 <jgarzik> "FB" is facebook
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1545 2014-09-15 17:33:20 <jgarzik> BitPay dev highlighted that as potentially interesting to Bitcoin Core
1546 2014-09-15 17:33:24 <jgarzik> Also he mentioned,
1547 2014-09-15 17:33:27 <jgarzik> "http://rocksdb.org / https://github.com/facebook/rocksdb
1548 2014-09-15 17:33:27 <jgarzik> This is a fork of leveldb, that is supposed to be much better for systems where the data is larger than RAM. I am not sure if this is completely a drop-in replacement though."
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1621 2014-09-15 19:05:07 <dgenr8> wumpus: <wumpus> so, at some point it's better to freeze the code as-is, apart from serious bugfixes
1622 2014-09-15 19:05:24 <dgenr8> that idea comes from the non-separability of the wallet
1623 2014-09-15 19:05:45 <dgenr8> if one last thing gets done, it should be to separate it
1624 2014-09-15 19:06:49 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: re: rocksdb: "db is better than" is usually for common or semi-common load patters, bitcoin core is not
1625 2014-09-15 19:07:07 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: things which are better in every benchmark ever are often not for bitcoin's work load
1626 2014-09-15 19:07:13 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, clearly
1627 2014-09-15 19:07:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, and rocksdb specifically notes it is tuned for a workload of a set bitcoin fits
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1633 2014-09-15 19:12:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: looks like fbvector is largely designed to address memory reallocation optimization
1634 2014-09-15 19:13:11 <BlueMatt> so, the best case is to reserve() properly and then it wont matter, not that we do that
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1644 2014-09-15 19:20:55 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, agreed
1645 2014-09-15 19:21:06 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, though we do some .resize() as well as some .reserve()
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1647 2014-09-15 19:21:24 <BlueMatt> indeed
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1654 2014-09-15 19:32:07 <dusty> hi all
1655 2014-09-15 19:32:28 <dusty> I need some test coins, does any1 have some to send to mwUii1fXRg5uGVUxvt9GGRiSL3PrjSuXds ?
1656 2014-09-15 19:32:30 <dusty> thanks
1657 2014-09-15 19:33:42 bonks has joined
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1666 2014-09-15 19:44:48 <Luke-Jr> dusty: sent 1 bTBC
1667 2014-09-15 19:45:20 <dusty> thank you so much luke
1668 2014-09-15 19:45:27 <Luke-Jr> TNáµTBC*
1669 2014-09-15 19:45:33 <Happzz> tn?
1670 2014-09-15 19:45:37 <Luke-Jr> testnet
1671 2014-09-15 19:46:06 <Happzz> so what's tbc?
1672 2014-09-15 19:46:13 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: Tonal Bitcoin ;)
1673 2014-09-15 19:46:23 <Happzz> tonal?
1674 2014-09-15 19:46:24 bonks has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1675 2014-09-15 19:46:32 <Happzz> what's with that terminology
1676 2014-09-15 19:46:33 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tonal_Bitcoin
1677 2014-09-15 19:47:03 bonks has joined
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1679 2014-09-15 19:47:24 Graet has joined
1680 2014-09-15 19:47:30 <Happzz> somebody decided hex wasn't good enough so she replaced a-f with emojis?
1681 2014-09-15 19:47:37 <Happzz> fucking smartphone kids
1682 2014-09-15 19:47:43 <Happzz> s/she/he
1683 2014-09-15 19:47:53 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: hex came later
1684 2014-09-15 19:48:06 JWU42 has joined
1685 2014-09-15 19:48:50 Emzy has joined
1686 2014-09-15 19:49:04 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: see non-font-required digits at http://books.google.com/books?id=aNYGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false - dating back to 1862 (hex was sometime after 1954)
1687 2014-09-15 19:49:25 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
1688 2014-09-15 19:49:49 <Happzz> i dont want to be rude, but you need to be a jackass to use that system here
1689 2014-09-15 19:50:13 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: that's pretty much just rude ;)
1690 2014-09-15 19:50:46 <Happzz> i know :(
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1742 2014-09-15 20:56:02 <flound1129> was there some network disruption around block 320,000?
1743 2014-09-15 20:56:08 <flound1129> one of my nodes quit updating there
1744 2014-09-15 20:56:18 <flound1129> and there was an alert about nodes not agreeing
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1750 2014-09-15 21:03:13 <gmaxwell> flound1129: no network disruption, sounds like your database has become corrupted or you've had a hardware failure.
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1830 2014-09-15 23:13:53 <warren> Anyone recall how to change the default # of cores and memory for gitian?
1831 2014-09-15 23:18:39 <warren> I guess modifying libexec/gconfig
1832 2014-09-15 23:19:04 <sipa> there's a command line flag to gbuild
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1834 2014-09-15 23:20:00 <sipa> -j PROCS -m MB
1835 2014-09-15 23:20:30 <warren> yeah, setting NPROCS added more cores to the VM but didn't change it to -j 4
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