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 132 2014-09-18 02:44:46 <_nskelse1_> When bitcoind runs out of memory is its behavior defined? My server seems to just kill the process
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 134 2014-09-18 02:46:02 <sipa> that's not bitcoind running out of memory
 135 2014-09-18 02:46:23 <sipa> that's your system running out of memory and deciding to take a last course resort
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 140 2014-09-18 02:48:18 <_nskelse1_> yeah, that was impercise
 141 2014-09-18 02:48:38 <_nskelse1_> Are memory requirements documented anywhere on the web? I have been looking around
 142 2014-09-18 02:55:26 <_nskelse1_> How about just a general recommendation for system memory size?
 143 2014-09-18 02:55:41 <sipa> 1 gb
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 146 2014-09-18 02:56:27 <sipa> run with -par=1 -dbcache=4 -maxconnections=16 or so if you want to reduce memory usage
 147 2014-09-18 02:57:07 <_nskelse1_> ok I'll give that a whirl. Thanks
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 311 2014-09-18 07:32:35 <wumpus> _nskelse1_: also -maxorphanblocks=50 or so, that can make a lot of difference in memory usage during initial sync
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 338 2014-09-18 07:51:06 <wumpus> I really want to merge headers-first...
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 340 2014-09-18 07:51:43 <fanquake> should probably just put it into 0.9.3 :p
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 357 2014-09-18 07:57:52 <wumpus> that's not really possible, a lot of preparatory commits already went into master to make it possible
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 359 2014-09-18 07:59:07 <chichov> how come the bitcoin wallet uses a fixed threshold of 546 Satoshi for determining dust transactions if for example for Multisig it would be too low or for P2SH it would be a tiny bit too high?
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 361 2014-09-18 07:59:39 <shesek> why would it be too high/low for multisig/p2sh?
 362 2014-09-18 07:59:51 <fanquake> Yea, looking forward to 0.10.0.
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 364 2014-09-18 08:00:01 <chichov> multisig has a much higher tx out size whereas P2SH has a slightly lower one
 365 2014-09-18 08:00:24 <shesek> chichov, but that doesn't really effect the outputs size in terms of satoshis
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 367 2014-09-18 08:00:53 <Belxjander> chichov: are you suggesting to have a variable dust size based on the transaction size estimated?
 368 2014-09-18 08:00:55 <wumpus> fanquake: I'd like to do the 0.10 release by end of this year, but only if we can merge headers-first
 369 2014-09-18 08:01:19 <chichov> uhm, it does influence the minimum spending amount though and what is considered dust
 370 2014-09-18 08:01:23 <chichov> if the tx output is big, then the minimum spending amount is higher as well
 371 2014-09-18 08:02:02 <chichov> Belxjander: the way I see it, that's what's done deep down in the code but not in the wallet
 372 2014-09-18 08:02:09 <shesek> why is that?
 373 2014-09-18 08:02:25 <shesek> the bytes size effects the fees, not the amount that's considered dust
 374 2014-09-18 08:02:28 <chichov> don't ask me, but it's not much of a big deal as long as P2PKH and P2SH addresses are used
 375 2014-09-18 08:02:31 <fanquake> wumpus What else do you think is required before merging? More tests? More eyes over? As far as I can tell the code has been running on some nodes for a while now.
 376 2014-09-18 08:02:42 JackH has joined
 377 2014-09-18 08:02:51 <wumpus> fanquake: the comparison tool needs to work with it
 378 2014-09-18 08:02:55 <shesek> and the output size is pretty constant, even with multisignature (because p2sh is usually used)
 379 2014-09-18 08:03:15 <shesek> its the inputs of transactions spending from multisig that get bigger
 380 2014-09-18 08:03:52 <chichov> shesek: what is considered dust is influenced by it, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/core.h#L205 and line 206
 381 2014-09-18 08:04:29 <chichov> the bigger the output size, the higher the minimum spending amount
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 383 2014-09-18 08:05:07 <chichov> like I said, for the wallet it's okay to set it at the fixed 546 satoshi, because for P2SH and P2PKH it will be sufficient
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 385 2014-09-18 08:06:07 <shesek> chichov, ah, I see. I actually wasn't aware that the dust is calculated like that
 386 2014-09-18 08:06:19 <chichov> shesek: yep it is, that's the point
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 388 2014-09-18 08:06:35 <shesek> two things - first of all, its for the whole transaction size, not the output size
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 390 2014-09-18 08:06:49 <chichov> it is only the output, check again
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 394 2014-09-18 08:08:22 <shesek> oh, yeah, you're right again :)
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 396 2014-09-18 08:09:50 <shesek> anyway, its on a per-kb basis, which most multisignature transactions are still well under
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 402 2014-09-18 08:11:24 <chichov> it's actually calculated per byte
 403 2014-09-18 08:11:35 <Luke-Jr> it's actually miner policy
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 405 2014-09-18 08:11:45 <chichov> Luke-Jr: heh, in the end yes
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 407 2014-09-18 08:12:00 <Luke-Jr> you can't assume any behaviour there
 408 2014-09-18 08:12:11 <chichov> there we cannot assume anything
 409 2014-09-18 08:12:24 <shesek> the standard reference rounds up to full kilobytes, then multiplies by the fee-per-kb
 410 2014-09-18 08:12:38 <chichov> shesek: that's for the transaction fees, not the dust rule
 411 2014-09-18 08:13:16 <Luke-Jr> the dust rule doesn't care about transaction size at all..
 412 2014-09-18 08:13:17 <shesek> chichov, the dust rule is based on the min tx fee
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 414 2014-09-18 08:13:39 <shesek> Luke-Jr, it cares about output size
 415 2014-09-18 08:14:36 <shesek> it checks the min relay tx fee for a transaction of (output_size+148), then that the output amount is bigger than three times that
 416 2014-09-18 08:14:54 <chichov> this looks a tiny bit odd, maybe the behaviour changed a bit since 0.9, mom
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 418 2014-09-18 08:16:19 <shesek> possibly, I'm looking at master
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 421 2014-09-18 08:17:12 <shesek> it does make sense, though. the way its described there is that an output amount is considered dust if you need to spend more than 1/3 of that in fees
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 423 2014-09-18 08:17:47 <chichov> Luke-Jr: has the calculation for dust transactions changed? I see that it's not calculated per kB and not exactly for bytes?
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 425 2014-09-18 08:18:03 <Luke-Jr> chichov: dust is regardless of tx size
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 428 2014-09-18 08:18:26 <chichov> Luke-Jr: yea, tx outputs, my bad
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 431 2014-09-18 08:20:49 <shesek> chichov, the min tx relay fee has always been calculated on a per-kb (rounded up) basis
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 437 2014-09-18 08:22:32 <chichov> nope, it hasn't
 438 2014-09-18 08:22:42 <chichov> that's yet, another point
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 440 2014-09-18 08:23:04 <chichov> look it up in the code of Bitcoin Core 0.9 in core.h
 441 2014-09-18 08:23:53 Krellan has joined
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 443 2014-09-18 08:25:13 <chichov> and I've just checked and even the current code doesn't do that, heh
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 446 2014-09-18 08:25:54 <chichov> you have nValue < 3 * minRelayTxFee.GetFee(34+148), where minRelayTxFee is CFeeRate(1000)
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 448 2014-09-18 08:26:12 <chichov> thus if we go into CFeeRate::GetFee(34+148), we get
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 450 2014-09-18 08:27:13 <chichov> nFee = (1000 * 182) / 1000 = 182
 451 2014-09-18 08:27:31 <chichov> so nValue < 3 * 182 = 546
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 453 2014-09-18 08:27:50 <wumpus> did anyone encounter any problems with 0.9.3rc2?
 454 2014-09-18 08:28:40 <shesek> chichov, which files is CFeeRate at?
 455 2014-09-18 08:29:02 <shesek> its odd, the wiki says that: "Otherwise, the reference implementation will round up the transaction size to the next thousand bytes and add a fee of 0.1 mBTC (0.0001 BTC) per thousand bytes[1]. As an example, a fee of 0.1 mBTC (0.0001 BTC) would be added to a 746 byte transaction, and a fee of 0.2 mBTC (0.0002 BTC) would be added to a 1001 byte transaction."
 456 2014-09-18 08:29:12 <chichov> core.h, line 129 and core.cpp, line 83
 457 2014-09-18 08:29:29 <Luke-Jr> chichov: this stuff changes almost every version
 458 2014-09-18 08:29:34 <chichov> shesek: that's for the transaction fees, that's a completely different story
 459 2014-09-18 08:30:07 <chichov> Luke-Jr: I just restructured the formula and it seems consistent with the older version (0.9)
 460 2014-09-18 08:30:09 <shesek> chichov, but that's what CFeeRate::GetFee does, isn't it?
 461 2014-09-18 08:30:29 <chichov> shesek: nope, go through my calculations then you'll see
 462 2014-09-18 08:31:13 <chichov> either way, I'm getting back to work, good luck
 463 2014-09-18 08:31:28 <shesek> no, I mean, CFeeRate::GetFee is used to calculate the minimum fee for regular transactions too, doesn't it?
 464 2014-09-18 08:32:00 <Luke-Jr> doubtful
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 477 2014-09-18 08:50:58 <wumpus> seems that there are no new issues reported with either 0.9.3 rc1 or rc2 ... so I guess it's time to tag 0.9.3 final
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 484 2014-09-18 08:55:16 <warren> wumpus: were the rc's announced anywhere?
 485 2014-09-18 08:56:06 <wumpus> warren: yes, on the mailing list and forum
 486 2014-09-18 08:57:14 <timothy> which mailing list?
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 493 2014-09-18 09:05:53 <fanquake> timothy http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/
 494 2014-09-18 09:06:40 <timothy> development one
 495 2014-09-18 09:07:09 <fanquake> yes http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/32770845/
 496 2014-09-18 09:07:13 <wumpus> there's an [ann] for rc1, I didn't make a new one for rc2
 497 2014-09-18 09:08:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: FWIW, I actively forked it and did some basic testing of my fork
 498 2014-09-18 09:08:52 <Luke-Jr> (it's what I plan to switch to, replacing my codebase from >1y ago
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 502 2014-09-18 09:15:09 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: okay, well testing the fork also tests the underlying code in a way so that's good
 503 2014-09-18 09:16:05 <Luke-Jr> right
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 506 2014-09-18 09:20:28 <dakdak> Is there a plan to avoid the problem of blockchain size? It's becoming difficult to an user to have a btccore deploy
 507 2014-09-18 09:21:04 <Luke-Jr> dakdak: lart the miners for letting spam in
 508 2014-09-18 09:21:40 <Luke-Jr> dakdak: 0.10 should make it sync a little faster
 509 2014-09-18 09:22:22 <dakdak> Ok, let's see.. Which planned changes will allow faster sync?
 510 2014-09-18 09:22:28 <Luke-Jr> headers first
 511 2014-09-18 09:23:03 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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 513 2014-09-18 09:23:48 <dakdak> you mean that block headers will be sync before block data?
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 515 2014-09-18 09:24:25 <Luke-Jr> dakdak: yes
 516 2014-09-18 09:24:49 <wumpus> dakdak: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4468
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 518 2014-09-18 09:26:03 <wumpus> if blockchain size on disk is a problem for you, you can look at the pruning pulls
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 520 2014-09-18 09:26:49 <wumpus> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4701
 521 2014-09-18 09:27:52 <dakdak> oh cool, thank you Luke-Jr , useful infos
 522 2014-09-18 09:29:11 <dakdak> wumpus: this is also cool, it's the thing I was waiting for
 523 2014-09-18 09:29:27 <wumpus> dakdak: help testing, it's the bottleneck
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 528 2014-09-18 09:30:13 <dakdak> Off course, I'll test these branch in few days.
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 647 2014-09-18 12:40:33 <jgarzik> wumpus, darned Windows and lack of strnlen()...  (#4940)
 648 2014-09-18 12:41:04 <wumpus> jgarzik: well it works fine with the mingw that we actualy use to build releases
 649 2014-09-18 12:41:25 <wumpus> jgarzik: and also travis... so, as we're going to phase out pulltester, I'm just going to wait for that
 650 2014-09-18 12:41:58 <wumpus> so it's more like 'ACK once pulltester dead'
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 680 2014-09-18 13:23:57 <lmatteis> hello! is there a good technical description as to how proof-of-stake type of system works for reaching consensus?
 681 2014-09-18 13:26:04 <t7> bitcoin whitepaper? wait proof-of-stake is like proof of work?
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 686 2014-09-18 13:37:47 <Adlai> lmatteis: PoS uses the same generalized consensus mechanism as PoW: longest valid chain wins. (but you're a little in the wrong channel for this topic)
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 690 2014-09-18 13:44:12 * michagogo gets his vbox ready
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 699 2014-09-18 13:52:39 <Sapee> Cloudflare has developed a way of using them without giving them ssl keys.http://blog.cloudflare.com/announcing-keyless-ssl-all-the-benefits-of-cloudflare-without-having-to-turn-over-your-private-ssl-keys/
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 702 2014-09-18 13:56:33 <michagogo> Really depends on the threat model
 703 2014-09-18 13:56:55 <michagogo> If you're worried about Cloudflare getting broken into and having keys stolen en masse, great, this solves that
 704 2014-09-18 13:57:31 <michagogo> But AIUI this doesn't make it any less protected from Cloudflare themselves, either coercion of the company or a malicious insider
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 720 2014-09-18 14:18:34 <michagogo> any more* protected
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 725 2014-09-18 14:27:24 <lmatteis> Adlai: what's the better channel for this type of question?
 726 2014-09-18 14:27:38 <lmatteis> it seems relevant since we're talking about ways to reach consensus on a p2p network
 727 2014-09-18 14:27:45 <lmatteis> so not sure why it's off topic
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 733 2014-09-18 14:28:55 <Adlai> lmatteis: #bitcoin-dev is specifically for bitcoin development. right now it's quiet but it can get pretty crowded at times. tbh i don't follow PoS coins, so i'm not sure where to direct you...
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 764 2014-09-18 15:05:14 <rdponticelli> lmatteis: Try #bitcoin-wizards
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1056 2014-09-18 19:52:21 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: did we lose donwload counts when we moved off SF?
1057 2014-09-18 19:54:23 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: yes, we did.
1058 2014-09-18 19:55:00 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: bitcoin.org could probably re-implement that feature, but it’d be a project.
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1061 2014-09-18 20:04:47 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, gavinandresen: It's an ongoing side project.  I poked saivann about it.  He referred me to another person, who did some work on stats, but then task-switched and did not finish the project.  BitPay wants those numbers too </vendor hat>
1062 2014-09-18 20:05:10 <Luke-Jr> ah, cool
1063 2014-09-18 20:05:29 <jgarzik> So, it's on the list, but nobody is really working on it right now AFAIK
1064 2014-09-18 20:05:59 <jgarzik> Have to do it in a suitably anonymous yet bot-manipulation-free way, as you do with "page views" or any such stats
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1072 2014-09-18 20:15:54 <hearn> jgarzik: we could just whack google analytics on the download page, but i think some people freaked out about that
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1104 2014-09-18 20:36:19 <dakdak> Someone can explain way in autoprune feature (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4701) wallet support is disabled?
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1107 2014-09-18 20:37:11 <dakdak> why*
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1112 2014-09-18 20:42:03 <Eliel> not all current wallet features can be supported in a pruning node I think.
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1186 2014-09-18 21:35:14 <lechuga_> BlueMatt: is your testnet3 seeder down?
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1189 2014-09-18 21:35:25 <saivann> jgarzik, Actually I have spent quite a good number of hours on that recently and am still optimizing scripts. Migrating / monitors servers took a lot of time recently though.
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1193 2014-09-18 21:36:05 <BlueMatt> it was never up
1194 2014-09-18 21:36:08 <BlueMatt> well, its been a while since it was up
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1225 2014-09-18 22:01:09 <rdponticelli> dakdak: Because under certain circumstances, you can end up with a wallet in an inconsistent state when running pruned.
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1233 2014-09-18 22:07:38 <dakdak> seems reasonable, thanks for the reply
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1249 2014-09-18 22:22:59 <chichov> how does the wallet estimate the transaction size?
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1254 2014-09-18 22:26:30 <sipa> it does not
1255 2014-09-18 22:26:47 <sipa> it just creates a transaction
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1257 2014-09-18 22:27:07 <sipa> and if the fee isn't enough for its own rules, a new attempt is made
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1267 2014-09-18 22:33:52 <chichov> sipa: thought so, it's sort of a hen and egg problem
1268 2014-09-18 22:34:17 <chichov> you cannot know the size and therefore the fee before the transaction is signed
1269 2014-09-18 22:34:25 <chichov> ugly circular dependency
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1298 2014-09-18 23:06:37 <Luke-Jr> well, you probably can in most cases.. we just don't :p
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1301 2014-09-18 23:11:49 <jgarzik> saivann, great, thanks for the update
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1306 2014-09-18 23:15:32 <gmaxwell> chichov: you absolutely can know an safe and reliable upper limit on the size which is fine.
1307 2014-09-18 23:16:41 <gmaxwell> (shorter than that maximum is exponentially unlikely the smaller it goes)
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1349 2014-09-18 23:58:50 akstunt600 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1350 2014-09-18 23:59:45 HaltingState has quit (Remote host closed the connection)