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 394 2014-09-21 11:21:43 <firelegend> aaaand
 395 2014-09-21 11:21:44 thaMan is now known as PsychoticBoy
 396 2014-09-21 11:21:55 <firelegend> I managed to set some people back to the straight path
 397 2014-09-21 11:22:06 <firelegend> Storing people's bitcoin in double, nono
 398 2014-09-21 11:22:17 <firelegend> It's a new exchange etc.
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 417 2014-09-21 11:37:12 <hearn> huh
 418 2014-09-21 11:37:18 <hearn> gmail has got integrated github support
 419 2014-09-21 11:37:21 <hearn> crazy!
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 421 2014-09-21 11:37:51 <firelegend> rather odd
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 424 2014-09-21 11:40:43 <fanquake> hearn really? What sort of features?
 425 2014-09-21 11:41:00 <hearn> there's a new "view pull request" button next to a pull req notification email, in the summary view
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 443 2014-09-21 12:02:09 <alfacent> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=790883.msg8911648#msg8911648
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 491 2014-09-21 13:14:40 <theadmin`> anybody know how i can force close wallets and not auto-open them with multibit?
 492 2014-09-21 13:14:47 chris2000 has joined
 493 2014-09-21 13:15:56 <dabura667> theadmin`: This is not the place to ask that. This channel is only for the development discussion of the Bitcoin Core client. Check Multi-bit's support forums.
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 525 2014-09-21 14:27:18 <sipa> dabura667: it's wider than just bitcoin core, but yes, development
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 589 2014-09-21 16:07:57 <Happzz> sipa any reason why coinjoin isnt being built in bitcoin-qt?
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 591 2014-09-21 16:08:43 <sipa> Happzz: because hardly anyone works on the wallet in bitcoin-qt
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 597 2014-09-21 16:12:17 <Luke-Jr> Happzz: patches welcome?
 598 2014-09-21 16:12:45 <sipa> ^
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 600 2014-09-21 16:14:09 <Happzz> im asking if there's a good reason it's not built in
 601 2014-09-21 16:14:20 <Happzz> (i thought about one, wanted to know if there are more)
 602 2014-09-21 16:14:47 <Happzz> related to this: can multiple signed transactions be "merged", or they must first be merged and then signed altogether?
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 605 2014-09-21 16:17:32 <sipa> first merge, then sign
 606 2014-09-21 16:17:51 <hearn> Happzz: lots of issues to make a coinjoin implementation: https://medium.com/@octskyward/merge-avoidance-7f95a386692f
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 613 2014-09-21 16:20:18 <j> hello
 614 2014-09-21 16:20:35 j is now known as Guest22465
 615 2014-09-21 16:20:42 <Guest22465> I have a quesion about bitcoind I was hoping someone could help me
 616 2014-09-21 16:20:47 Beef has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 617 2014-09-21 16:21:07 Banks has joined
 618 2014-09-21 16:21:10 <Guest22465> its about launching it under a specific user in linux
 619 2014-09-21 16:21:33 <Guest22465> anyone willing to share some wisdom ?
 620 2014-09-21 16:21:35 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 621 2014-09-21 16:21:39 <Banks> Please take a minute and join wwww.CoinDev.net - Cryptocurrency Project Development Forums
 622 2014-09-21 16:22:16 <Luke-Jr> this is not a support channel, or a spam channel
 623 2014-09-21 16:22:42 <Happzz> thanks hearn
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 625 2014-09-21 16:22:57 <Guest22465> well what is it then ?
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 627 2014-09-21 16:23:06 <Guest22465> sleeping channel ?
 628 2014-09-21 16:23:17 <Guest22465> shhhhh
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 652 2014-09-21 16:48:32 <Banks> Odd, I was suggested to use the IRC over the forums.
 653 2014-09-21 16:49:00 <Banks> But by the looks the past half hour in here. I haven't gained, learned or seen any discussion
 654 2014-09-21 16:49:29 _nskelsey_ has joined
 655 2014-09-21 16:49:42 <sipa> Banks: stay a few days :)
 656 2014-09-21 16:50:23 <Luke-Jr> Banks: usually we try to spend more time coding than talking ;)  and for some reason we sleep occasionally too
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 659 2014-09-21 16:52:15 <sipa> Banks: and you'll have to beat a huge momentum if you want to try to replace bitcointalk
 660 2014-09-21 16:52:35 ak_ has joined
 661 2014-09-21 16:54:37 <Banks> I have no intentions of replacing bitcointalk.
 662 2014-09-21 16:55:01 <sipa> ok
 663 2014-09-21 16:56:10 <Banks> I'm focusing on the projects themselves, not coins. On a daily bases I seek coders, designers, content writers, merchants, etc. Sure theres plenty of places online to find all of those. But for cryptocurrency? Not many.. all in one place (Just for projects)
 664 2014-09-21 16:56:26 MoALTz_ has joined
 665 2014-09-21 16:56:52 <Banks> But everyone is entitled to opinions, if me trying to create a tool or resource for everyone is considered "spam" guess there isn't much I can do.
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 706 2014-09-21 18:04:06 <owowo> ;;estimate
 707 2014-09-21 18:04:07 <gribble> Next difficulty estimate | 35368587733.3 based on data since last change | 36431585387.9 based on data for last three days
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 715 2014-09-21 18:10:17 <gfawkes> all i have to say is... fuckin' a! r0x0r my s0x0r5 with working code.
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 749 2014-09-21 18:47:26 <AlSzacrel> spend a good of the day creating simulations for the coinselection thing, but it becomes exceedingly obvious that Python is just too friggin slow to test behaviour of UTXO pools bigger than a few thousand with different selection behaviors. :(
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 751 2014-09-21 18:48:50 <AlSzacrel> +good part
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 756 2014-09-21 18:54:44 <samson_> Can anyone send alert messages ro be relayed around the Bitcoin p2p network or do they need to be signed with the alert key before they are propogated ?
 757 2014-09-21 18:54:52 <samson_> *to
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 760 2014-09-21 18:58:03 <justanotheruser> samson_: they need the alert key
 761 2014-09-21 18:58:27 <AlSzacrel> samson_: The article on alerts in the wiki specifies that they need to be signed by a specific key to be considered valid. It doesn't clarify whether invalid alerts are relayed, but I'd think no.
 762 2014-09-21 18:58:29 <justanotheruser> otherwise one could spam the network with alerts
 763 2014-09-21 18:59:00 <justanotheruser> AlSzacrel: clients won't propogate invalid things
 764 2014-09-21 18:59:34 <AlSzacrel> justanotheruser: That would make sense, thanks.
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 776 2014-09-21 19:09:20 <samson_> Thanks guys, I assumed that it would only be propogated if the signature matched the alert key - I just wanted to confirm this
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 779 2014-09-21 19:12:46 <jintelletec> looking for engineers in san fran or LA looking to work fulltime for btc companies
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 803 2014-09-21 19:53:14 <remotemass> Can anyone give me some feedback on this? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=790883.0
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 806 2014-09-21 19:55:57 <justanotheruser> remotemass: it is something that can be done without a hardfork
 807 2014-09-21 19:56:03 <justanotheruser> and probably without a fork in general
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 810 2014-09-21 19:57:05 <justanotheruser> also, it means that miners can manipulate the lotto pretty easily
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 813 2014-09-21 19:58:11 <remotemass> how could you do it without a fork?
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 815 2014-09-21 20:00:06 <justanotheruser> remotemass: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277048.0
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 824 2014-09-21 20:09:27 <remotemass> how do you think the miners can manipulate the lotto?
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 826 2014-09-21 20:10:33 <justanotheruser> remotemass: what is "LAST_HASH_VALUE"
 827 2014-09-21 20:11:58 <newbier> anyone running relay node client from BlueMatt?
 828 2014-09-21 20:12:23 <newbier> running into problem with it
 829 2014-09-21 20:12:51 <remotemass> justanotheruser, once the transactions for one contest of the lotto have 6 confirmations you check the last hash and the next block will have to include coinbase output to the lotto winner
 830 2014-09-21 20:13:33 <remotemass> I mean, the latest hash
 831 2014-09-21 20:13:54 <remotemass> I will give an example:
 832 2014-09-21 20:14:14 <justanotheruser>  remotemass wait
 833 2014-09-21 20:14:45 <justanotheruser> so the hash of the block with the 7th confirmation is the winning hash
 834 2014-09-21 20:15:13 <remotemass> The contest takes place at Block 100. After 6 confirmations we check the hash of block 106. The block 107 will have to include the lotto rewards of the coins burnt at block 100.
 835 2014-09-21 20:15:49 <justanotheruser> remotemass: great, so the miners get to decide who wins
 836 2014-09-21 20:16:11 <remotemass> No way. How would they?
 837 2014-09-21 20:16:39 <justanotheruser> by throwing away blocks that they don't win in
 838 2014-09-21 20:17:02 <justanotheruser> I will reword that
 839 2014-09-21 20:17:15 <justanotheruser> by throwing away the blocks that don't cause them to win
 840 2014-09-21 20:18:15 <remotemass> Who wins is determined by the hash of the block 106. Miners will only be forced to include the lotto rewards in block 107. There's nothing they can do to change the winner
 841 2014-09-21 20:18:47 <justanotheruser> yeah, so the winner of 106 may throw away their block if it isn't a winner
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 843 2014-09-21 20:18:53 <fvdl> hi
 844 2014-09-21 20:19:58 <justanotheruser> hi
 845 2014-09-21 20:20:26 <fvdl> anyone can tell me about the 'malleballity bug' in clear terms ?
 846 2014-09-21 20:21:25 <edcba> that sux
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 849 2014-09-21 20:22:30 <edcba> ok if i did follow correctly take 3 transactions : "1", "2", "01"
 850 2014-09-21 20:22:55 <edcba> there are only 2 real different transactions but 3 different representations
 851 2014-09-21 20:23:25 remotemass has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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 853 2014-09-21 20:23:41 <alfacent> sorry, lost connection
 854 2014-09-21 20:23:51 <alfacent> did I miss something?
 855 2014-09-21 20:23:55 <edcba> doesn't matter i was talking to fvdl
 856 2014-09-21 20:23:57 <justanotheruser> fvdl: part of a transaction can be changed while it is still valid
 857 2014-09-21 20:24:09 <alfacent> I was saying: the winner is already chosen when they need to include a block that rewards the lotto winner
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 859 2014-09-21 20:24:17 <fvdl> i know that, some parts can be changed, except for the sender and receiver (those are signed)
 860 2014-09-21 20:24:23 <justanotheruser> alfacent: you are remotemas?
 861 2014-09-21 20:24:44 <alfacent> yes
 862 2014-09-21 20:24:46 <alfacent> sorry
 863 2014-09-21 20:24:49 <fvdl> but the transactionID is complete SHA of the whole transaction so the ID changes ?
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 865 2014-09-21 20:24:59 <justanotheruser> yes, block 106 chooses the winner based on the hash, right?
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 868 2014-09-21 20:25:21 <justanotheruser> first of all this wouldn't be a hardfork, but that is besides the point
 869 2014-09-21 20:25:41 <remotemass> the winner is determined by the hash of block 106 and miners need to include lotto reward in the next block
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 871 2014-09-21 20:26:05 <justanotheruser> remotemass: and if a miner mines 106 and it doesn't have them winning, they are free to throw that block away
 872 2014-09-21 20:26:31 <earlz> using the blockchain as a seed for a lottery is risky at best
 873 2014-09-21 20:26:45 <justanotheruser> over time miners will be able to manipulate this and profit quite a bit
 874 2014-09-21 20:27:24 <earlz> A random number "oracle" is hard to come by with a friendly API
 875 2014-09-21 20:27:54 <Eliel> remotemass: in short, if the lottery prize is big enough, miners will be willing to throw away their 25 BTC block reward for a better chance at winning the lottery.
 876 2014-09-21 20:27:54 <justanotheruser> earlz: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277048.0
 877 2014-09-21 20:28:59 <earlz> heh cointoss is much easier than a dice roll though
 878 2014-09-21 20:29:09 <earlz> maybe it's possible to adapt though
 879 2014-09-21 20:29:21 <justanotheruser> earlz: I don't see why it wouldn't be
 880 2014-09-21 20:29:30 <justanotheruser> the only risk is annoying people DoSing
 881 2014-09-21 20:29:46 <justanotheruser> joining the lotto and setting up 99% then bailing
 882 2014-09-21 20:30:01 <remotemass> justanotheruser, yeah you are right. What if you use the hash of another blockchain as your random number?
 883 2014-09-21 20:30:22 <justanotheruser> remotemass: then you are vulnerable to the same thing..
 884 2014-09-21 20:30:29 <remotemass> indeed
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 887 2014-09-21 20:33:54 <Eliel> remotemass: there is a workable algorithm for producing fair random numbers though. You have n parties choose a random number and publish a cryptographic hash of their number. When everyone has published the hash, they reveal their numbers and if the numbers match the hashes, they're all hashed together and the result will be used as a random number for the draw.
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 890 2014-09-21 20:35:35 <justanotheruser> Eliel: it's fair, but is it trustless?
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 893 2014-09-21 20:35:52 <homicidium> hello
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 896 2014-09-21 20:36:16 <remotemass> Eliel: how is that algorithm called? Also can you give an example so that it becomes more clear?
 897 2014-09-21 20:36:24 <homicidium> ,I wanna learn bitcoins programming language
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 899 2014-09-21 20:36:34 <homicidium> I wanna learn bitcoins programming language
 900 2014-09-21 20:36:44 <homicidium> What was that?
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 902 2014-09-21 20:37:01 <Eliel> justanotheruser: if you're one of the n parties, there's no need to trust the others. If you're not one of the n parties, you need to trust that one of them produced a proper random number.
 903 2014-09-21 20:37:34 <fvdl> remotemass you want to do a random draw between parties, where every party can have input (and so change the number) while that parties can not determine the output by precalculate the end result ?
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 905 2014-09-21 20:38:41 <justanotheruser> Eliel: what if the last guy knows he lost and doesn't produce his number?
 906 2014-09-21 20:38:47 <justanotheruser> does the tx not go through?
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 910 2014-09-21 20:40:09 <remotemass> fvdl: I'm afraid I cannot follow you. Did you read my post on the forum "fvdl"?
 911 2014-09-21 20:40:23 <fvdl> remotemass: nope sorry
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 913 2014-09-21 20:40:36 <fvdl> remotemass: what do you want to accomplisch ? (a lottery ?)
 914 2014-09-21 20:40:54 <remotemass> it's here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=790883.0
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 916 2014-09-21 20:41:54 <remotemass> yes a trustless lottery without game owner, so no taxes being paid or revenues to the game owner
 917 2014-09-21 20:42:33 <edcba> more like a bet between parties then
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 919 2014-09-21 20:43:15 <homicidium> T
 920 2014-09-21 20:43:20 <homicidium> TÜRK VAR MI
 921 2014-09-21 20:43:23 <remotemass> yes, a bet from which the outcome is random
 922 2014-09-21 20:43:28 <fvdl> that is possible
 923 2014-09-21 20:43:43 <Eliel> justanotheruser: that situation is problematic but can be addressed by requiring a deposit that is not returned unless the number is revealed.
 924 2014-09-21 20:43:57 <fvdl> but if you can see the other entries, you can calculate the outcome ;-)
 925 2014-09-21 20:44:06 <fvdl> and determine how much you would invest to get the price
 926 2014-09-21 20:44:11 <justanotheruser> Eliel: so you can only bet half the money you own right?
 927 2014-09-21 20:44:35 <edcba> ideally you bet X+Y and you get either X either X+n*Y then ?
 928 2014-09-21 20:45:10 <Eliel> justanotheruser: something like that.
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 935 2014-09-21 20:49:45 <fvdl> remotemass: it is possible to make a garantueed proven lottery where it is not possible to fake
 936 2014-09-21 20:49:48 <Eliel> justanotheruser: deposit + a rule that if one participant refuses to reveal their number, they forfreit both their bet, chance of winning and deposit. The game proceeds by using all numbers except for the one who stood up.
 937 2014-09-21 20:50:04 x48 has joined
 938 2014-09-21 20:51:06 <remotemass> What if you hash hashes from different blockchains and use that as the RNG ?
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 940 2014-09-21 20:51:54 <Eliel> remotemass: the problem is that the last hash will always have direct influence over the result.
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 942 2014-09-21 20:52:08 <remotemass> indeed
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 944 2014-09-21 20:52:19 <Eliel> and a miner can always choose to not publish one that is not to their favor
 945 2014-09-21 20:52:40 <remotemass> fvdl: do you mean it is possible a provably fair lottery ?!
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 948 2014-09-21 20:53:49 <remotemass> that is possible but can you make it without anyone being the game owner that has to pay taxes or has revenues?
 949 2014-09-21 20:54:21 <Eliel> remotemass: the algorithm I outlined is for precisely that situation
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 952 2014-09-21 20:54:58 <remotemass> what do you mean by "reveal their number" ?
 953 2014-09-21 20:55:41 <fvdl> remotemass: at the end someone must divide the price, that can be the miner, but at the end someone has to transfer the funds
 954 2014-09-21 20:56:40 <remotemass> is that what you mean by "reveal their number" ?!
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 956 2014-09-21 20:56:42 <Eliel> remotemass: the numbers aren't revealed before everyone has published a hash of their number. This is to prevent anyone from changing their number after it's been decided.
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 964 2014-09-21 20:57:42 <remotemass> do you have a link, explaining that algorithm?
 965 2014-09-21 20:58:03 <Eliel> with the hashes, you can verify that everyone publishes the number they decided on before seeing others' numbers.
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 967 2014-09-21 20:59:43 <justanotheruser> Eliel: how do you know whether they are refusing to reveal their number trustlessly
 968 2014-09-21 20:59:44 <abrkn> how would running low on ram affect bitcoind?
 969 2014-09-21 21:00:12 <fvdl> remotemass: you need a example of the algoritm that proves that the competitors are playing and not cheating ?
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 971 2014-09-21 21:00:58 <Eliel> I'm pretty sure there's an article about this algorithm somewhere, but unfortunately, I don't remember the name for this algo so, can't even offer up a search term.
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 973 2014-09-21 21:02:21 <remotemass> I'm confused. But I agree that my proposal is faulty
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 978 2014-09-21 21:04:03 <Eliel> justanotheruser: that's probably the weakest point in the algo. No way to tell if someone is refusing or just unable to reveal their number.
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 980 2014-09-21 21:05:49 <Eliel> a reasonable time limit would seem like a good way to deal with it.
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 982 2014-09-21 21:06:10 <justanotheruser> so an attacker just has to DoS them for that long
 983 2014-09-21 21:06:23 <Eliel> long enough that a DoS can be circumvented in most cases.
 984 2014-09-21 21:06:51 <Eliel> but that's really getting out of scope for the algorithm.
 985 2014-09-21 21:07:04 <remotemass> BTW, do you think that a chain of hashes of tweets could be an interesting Random Number Generator?
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 996 2014-09-21 21:14:26 <remotemass> Such that the random number generated by a tweet would be a hash of: (that tweet + hash of previous tweet)
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1013 2014-09-21 21:20:11 <remotemass> What if you use the Hash of : (the next Hashrate of the network + Unix timestamp of date of the adjustment) as the random number?
1014 2014-09-21 21:20:19 <justanotheruser> remotemass: no
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1016 2014-09-21 21:20:35 <justanotheruser> the tweet is manipulatable
1017 2014-09-21 21:20:45 <justanotheruser> and the network hashrate + unix timestamp isn't random
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1021 2014-09-21 21:28:26 <remotemass> Can you predict the exact hashrate the network will have in the future?
1022 2014-09-21 21:28:36 <remotemass> I don't think so
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1026 2014-09-21 21:31:45 <Eliel> remotemass: no, but you can't measure it either
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1073 2014-09-21 21:40:59 <remotemass> Imagine that you run the contest on the first block after difficulty changes and use as random number the hash of: (all the following 2015 block hashes + new difficulty). Wouldn't that be a good random number?
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1088 2014-09-21 21:52:49 <kefkius> How can I get the script for a given tx?
1089 2014-09-21 21:53:38 <justanotheruser> kefkius: do you have bitcoind?
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1091 2014-09-21 21:53:48 <kefkius> Yep
1092 2014-09-21 21:54:01 <justanotheruser> getrawtransaction <txid>
1093 2014-09-21 21:54:08 <justanotheruser> decoderawtransaction <rawtx>
1094 2014-09-21 21:54:35 <kefkius> Awesome, thanks
1095 2014-09-21 21:54:56 <mr_burdell> or "getrawtransaction <txid> 1" to do it in one command
1096 2014-09-21 21:55:37 <justanotheruser> :O
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