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33 2014-09-28 00:36:33 <apmapm12> Raffle for an s4 only 2m ( mmxiv ) now called Maieuticoin http://i.imgur.com/CWI80Dt.png. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=623884.msg8997946#msg8997946
34 2014-09-28 00:37:39 <sipa> apmapm12: not here
35 2014-09-28 00:37:57 <earlz> So, is compiling bitcoin-qt on Windows with cygwin a supported scenario?
36 2014-09-28 00:38:11 <earlz> ie, without compiling dependencies
37 2014-09-28 00:38:26 <apmapm12> 10-4 sorry bout that :)
38 2014-09-28 00:39:54 <sipa> earlz: only _supported_ is building on linux and osx afaik
39 2014-09-28 00:40:19 <sipa> though building with mingw32 on windows is likely possible
40 2014-09-28 00:40:43 <earlz> I have a mingw setup going already.. but it's high maintenance and fragile
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42 2014-09-28 00:44:46 <goykasi> ive been working on a program that watches transactions that are actively being relayed, but ive noticed that a few peers that im connected to are broadcasting old txids (from previous blocks). why would that be happening?
43 2014-09-28 00:45:07 <sipa> goykasi: they're broken
44 2014-09-28 00:45:36 <goykasi> i see. so i will need to actively filter those out
45 2014-09-28 00:46:18 <sipa> your own node will filter them out
46 2014-09-28 00:46:30 <goykasi> not a huge deal. i was trying to avoid running an rpc command for each txid i see come in
47 2014-09-28 00:46:41 <sipa> just run behind your own node?
48 2014-09-28 00:46:47 <goykasi> this is completely custom â running protocol commands manually
49 2014-09-28 00:47:02 <prettymuchbryce> Anyone know of a good ecdsa 256k1 library for golang ? or c libraries ?
50 2014-09-28 00:47:03 <goykasi> ill just hit my own node, should be relatively quick
51 2014-09-28 00:47:13 <goykasi> but a bit more overhead
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69 2014-09-28 01:45:57 <phantomcircuit> would anybody object to the order of transaction outputs going from random to ordered by value with the last 2 outputs swapped to discourage assumptions about ordering
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71 2014-09-28 01:47:02 <sipa> haha
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77 2014-09-28 01:59:52 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: just off the top of my head, once nice thing about randomness is that even a single person using random ordering generates plausible deniability for everyone
78 2014-09-28 01:59:55 <gwillen> sorting doesn't have that effect
79 2014-09-28 02:00:32 <gwillen> but with enough people already being random, that may not make any difference in practice
80 2014-09-28 02:02:17 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, right it provides cover for coinjoin and friends
81 2014-09-28 02:02:20 <phantomcircuit> nvm then
82 2014-09-28 02:02:56 <gwillen> I mean, if _everyone_ sorted then I think it would be as good as random; it's only bad if some people sort and some people don't.
83 2014-09-28 02:03:13 <earlz> what's the point of sorting?
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85 2014-09-28 02:06:19 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, decentralized coinjoin stuff would be difficult if they had to be ordered
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87 2014-09-28 02:06:35 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: ahhhh, true
88 2014-09-28 02:06:42 <phantomcircuit> earlz, potential trivial leak of prng state
89 2014-09-28 02:06:51 <phantomcircuit> but yeah there are good reasons not to do it
90 2014-09-28 02:06:58 <earlz> hmm
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192 2014-09-28 05:55:54 <leotreasure> hello
193 2014-09-28 05:56:48 <leotreasure> I was wondering if anyone can help me workout how my computer was compromised?
194 2014-09-28 05:58:21 <leotreasure> I lost 748.75 bitcoins 5 days ago and Iâm offering up to 50% bounty to people who help with information that leads to the hackers arrest and return of my coins
195 2014-09-28 05:59:28 <leotreasure> for anyone interested in doin blockchain analysis the tx is 7c67634b40d85ae08a6300a0f8613455d5d687772f9b982a11597418d805dd3d
196 2014-09-28 06:00:02 <leotreasure> iâm running Mac OS X it was version 10.9.4 at the time
197 2014-09-28 06:00:25 <leotreasure> Bitcoin-QT 10.9.1-beta
198 2014-09-28 06:00:43 <leotreasure> unencrypted
199 2014-09-28 06:00:56 <Arnavion> Are you sure it was 10.9.1-beta ?
200 2014-09-28 06:01:30 <leotreasure> quite sure - thatâs what the splash screen and about screen shoes
201 2014-09-28 06:01:33 <leotreasure> shows*
202 2014-09-28 06:01:39 <SomeoneWeird> leotreasure: jesus christ man
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204 2014-09-28 06:01:41 <leotreasure> i thought i was running 10.9.2
205 2014-09-28 06:01:47 <Arnavion> Because that is not a bitcoin-qt version
206 2014-09-28 06:01:55 <SomeoneWeird> sorry :(
207 2014-09-28 06:02:17 <leotreasure> thanks SomeoneWeird
208 2014-09-28 06:02:32 <leotreasure> Arnavion: is there a differnce between bitcoin qt and bitcoin core?
209 2014-09-28 06:03:03 <Arnavion> Both are versioned the same so that's not relevant
210 2014-09-28 06:03:18 <SomeoneWeird> leotreasure: 5 days ago? hmm, i don't suppose you had an internet facing service running on your laptop?
211 2014-09-28 06:03:19 <Arnavion> The latest version of bitcoin-qt is 0.9.3 from a few days ago
212 2014-09-28 06:03:38 <sipa> #bitcoin please
213 2014-09-28 06:03:38 <Arnavion> so if yours says 10.9... then it's something else, not bitcoin-qt
214 2014-09-28 06:03:51 <leotreasure> SomeoneWeird: not that iâm aware of
215 2014-09-28 06:04:08 <sipa> very sad to hear you lost that much... but this is not a support channel
216 2014-09-28 06:04:10 <SomeoneWeird> yeh move it to #bitcoin, didn't realise we were in dev
217 2014-09-28 06:04:14 <leotreasure> Arnavion iâm sorry my mistake - it shows v0.9.1-beta
218 2014-09-28 06:04:29 <leotreasure> ok
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234 2014-09-28 06:50:05 <phantomcircuit> leotreasure, did you wipe the os x system already?
235 2014-09-28 06:50:14 <leotreasure> no
236 2014-09-28 06:50:37 <leotreasure> should i?
237 2014-09-28 06:50:41 <phantomcircuit> no
238 2014-09-28 06:50:54 <phantomcircuit> search the hdd for java .jar files with random names
239 2014-09-28 06:51:05 <phantomcircuit> they wont have the .jar extension
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242 2014-09-28 06:52:49 <leotreasure> search like this? *jar
243 2014-09-28 06:57:19 <sipa> please, not here
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339 2014-09-28 10:40:11 <Akima> Does BitCoin Core (GUI) tell you if some bitcoin you have received is part of a doublespend? (obviously; this assumes that it has received the double-spend transaction from the network).
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358 2014-09-28 11:16:39 <skinnkavaj> https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/solution-trustless-bitcoin-microtransactions/
359 2014-09-28 11:16:40 <skinnkavaj> ?
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372 2014-09-28 11:38:45 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, did you ever manage to run your crashing build inside gdb?
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468 2014-09-28 14:34:18 <Happzz> you know what feature i'd like? a limited rpc that would only let me generate new addresses remotely
469 2014-09-28 14:35:03 <brisque> if you think you want that, you'll love BIP-32 wallets.
470 2014-09-28 14:35:14 <brisque> (and you don't want that anyway)
471 2014-09-28 14:35:18 ThomasV has joined
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473 2014-09-28 14:35:44 <brisque> (you want split-key BIP32, which can make addresses for a HD wallet offline, no RPC needed at all)
474 2014-09-28 14:36:43 <Happzz> why dont i want that?
475 2014-09-28 14:37:20 <brisque> bitcoin's RPC is not safe to expose to the internet. if you want a limited RPC interface as a security thing, you've probably already lost in other ways.
476 2014-09-28 14:37:25 xenog has joined
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478 2014-09-28 14:38:49 <brisque> and if you are exposing your RPC interface to the internet, stop it pronto.
479 2014-09-28 14:39:17 <Belxjander> brisque: I'm thinking about the libbitcoin implimentations myself and making them a local equivalent to a DLL with direct applciation calling...everything inside the library being contained seperate from the calling applications
480 2014-09-28 14:39:20 DanMAbraham is now known as moarrr
481 2014-09-28 14:41:49 <brisque> I'm not sure I see the point. bitcoin core's wallet is next to useless for anything except personal use, as soon as you move beyond into writing applications with it, you need to be using something else entirely.
482 2014-09-28 14:42:46 cbeams has joined
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484 2014-09-28 14:52:45 <Happzz> bip32 sounds cool. are there any common wallets that implemented that?
485 2014-09-28 14:53:22 <brisque> Electrum is a lite wallet that does, there's a number of them that use slightly different bip32 forms.
486 2014-09-28 14:53:39 jujumax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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488 2014-09-28 14:53:58 <brisque> the core client will eventually.
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541 2014-09-28 16:24:50 <dgenr8> Akima: not yet, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4570
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548 2014-09-28 16:29:47 <dgenr8> Happzz: answered on #bitcoin. And yes, bip32 is beautiful.
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550 2014-09-28 16:33:17 <brisque> wish people stuck to it as a standard though.
551 2014-09-28 16:33:49 <brisque> as it stands there's like 20 different "x word seed" varitations that aren't interoperable
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553 2014-09-28 16:34:08 <brisque> even Electrum has at least 3 versions
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567 2014-09-28 16:49:53 <aschildbach> brisque: The problem is apps have different needs (e.g. SPV vs. centralized).
568 2014-09-28 16:50:06 <aschildbach> brisque: And wordlists aren't even part of BIP32â¦
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570 2014-09-28 16:50:50 <brisque> sure, that's bip39. people still use the underlying structure differently.
571 2014-09-28 16:51:35 <aschildbach> Right. BIP32-hierarchy, as I call the second half of BIP32, shouldn't have happened.
572 2014-09-28 16:51:44 <brisque> what I was getting at is that to a user, they look identical
573 2014-09-28 16:52:11 <brisque> bip38 shouldn't have happened either
574 2014-09-28 16:52:41 <aschildbach> That's right, but it's unrelated to HD wallets isn't it?
575 2014-09-28 16:53:03 <brisque> related to the topic of "weird wallet stuff we don't like" though
576 2014-09-28 16:53:19 <aschildbach> Ok, agreed (-
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579 2014-09-28 16:54:52 <aschildbach> I'm hoping that one day, when HD is better understood, we'll get together and create the one standard that unifies all⦠(or most)
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581 2014-09-28 16:55:44 <brisque> most wallets don't even support compressed point EC keys, so I don't see them changing their HD setup any time soon
582 2014-09-28 16:56:22 <brisque> and compressed point public keys are easy, and have a clear financial motive (lower fees)
583 2014-09-28 16:56:50 lclc_bnc is now known as lclc
584 2014-09-28 16:56:52 <aschildbach> Which non-webwallets don't support compressed ECKeys?
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588 2014-09-28 16:58:05 <brisque> Electrum
589 2014-09-28 16:58:08 <brisque> Armory
590 2014-09-28 16:58:48 <aschildbach> Oh Armory still exists?
591 2014-09-28 16:58:55 <aschildbach> Ok didn't know
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593 2014-09-28 16:59:22 <aschildbach> What about Electrum? Doesn't support sending to or receiving to compressed keys?
594 2014-09-28 16:59:25 <brisque> Armory is almost brokenly slow, but yes, it still exists
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596 2014-09-28 17:00:08 <brisque> sending is not a problem, there's no way of telling if an address is masking a compressed or uncompressed point
597 2014-09-28 17:00:49 <brisque> Electrum creates uncompressed point private keys, which is the problem. I don't know if it supports importing compressed point keys.
598 2014-09-28 17:01:11 <brisque> Armory certainly does not support compressed keys in any way but sending to them.
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606 2014-09-28 17:03:19 <aschildbach> Did ThomasV say anything about planned support for compressed keys?
607 2014-09-28 17:03:50 <brisque> I don't know, I haven't followed Electrum development except for electrum-server.
608 2014-09-28 17:03:52 <ThomasV> aschildbach: what do you mean?
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610 2014-09-28 17:04:07 <aschildbach> ThomasV: Were talking about Electrum
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614 2014-09-28 17:04:25 <aschildbach> â¦and whether you're planning to support compressed keys.
615 2014-09-28 17:04:26 <ThomasV> aschildbach: bip32 is compressed, no?
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617 2014-09-28 17:05:12 <brisque> I believe bip32 doesn't state if keys are to be compressed or uncompressed point.
618 2014-09-28 17:05:13 <aschildbach> Oh is it? Are all BIP32-derived keys compressed?
619 2014-09-28 17:05:46 <ThomasV> aschildbach: yes
620 2014-09-28 17:06:10 <aschildbach> Nice
621 2014-09-28 17:06:27 <brisque> huh? I could have sworn there was at least one bip32 application which uses uncompressed point keys
622 2014-09-28 17:07:49 <brisque> ThomasV: no, you're right, BIP32 explicitly states compressed point keys.
623 2014-09-28 17:08:41 <aschildbach> brisque: That leaves only Armory on your list. (-:
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625 2014-09-28 17:09:17 <brisque> as of Electrum 1.9.8 it is using uncompressed keys, I'm assuming compressed keys are a 2.0 feature?
626 2014-09-28 17:10:05 <ThomasV> brisque: yes
627 2014-09-28 17:10:18 <ThomasV> 2.0 is almost ready
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629 2014-09-28 17:10:46 <ThomasV> but you can already import compressed keys in 1.9.8
630 2014-09-28 17:11:01 <ThomasV> (probably since 1.7, iirc)
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632 2014-09-28 17:11:11 <brisque> I'm very happy that bip32 states compressed point keys, that should clear up other problem clients too
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634 2014-09-28 17:11:51 <brisque> aschildbach: thing is, a lot of the total transaction traffic is blockchain.info's, and I don't see them changing any time soon.
635 2014-09-28 17:12:06 <aschildbach> I assume the problems are only if you move keys around⦠?
636 2014-09-28 17:12:18 <aschildbach> How do you know its blockchain.info?
637 2014-09-28 17:12:40 <ThomasV> at some point they claimed to handle 50% of all transactions
638 2014-09-28 17:12:52 <brisque> and I don't doubt that in the least.
639 2014-09-28 17:14:16 <aschildbach> They claim a lot of ridiculous numbers.
640 2014-09-28 17:15:06 <aschildbach> If I counted each address as a wallet like bc.i do, Bitcoin Wallet has ~2 mio wallets. But it would be ridiculous to count like that.
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642 2014-09-28 17:16:10 <brisque> I thought your wallet used bitcoinj, how do you know which addresses are made by it?
643 2014-09-28 17:16:42 <aschildbach> I know how many installs (according to Google) + I know from the people who report bugs how many addresses they usually have
644 2014-09-28 17:16:54 <brisque> got it
645 2014-09-28 17:16:57 <aschildbach> Of course its just an estimation.
646 2014-09-28 17:17:45 <ThomasV> I guess Electrum makes between 5% and 10% of all transactions. this is an estimation based on server logs
647 2014-09-28 17:17:55 <brisque> oddly enough blockchain.info claim exactly the same number of individual wallets (not addresses)
648 2014-09-28 17:18:14 <aschildbach> ThomasV: That's great numbers!
649 2014-09-28 17:18:36 <ThomasV> aschildbach: yeah, but you know the xkcd about extrapolating
650 2014-09-28 17:18:52 <aschildbach> hmm no
651 2014-09-28 17:18:57 <ThomasV> http://xkcd.com/605/
652 2014-09-28 17:19:38 <aschildbach> lol!
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658 2014-09-28 17:20:46 <ThomasV> ok, dinner time. bbl
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724 2014-09-28 18:53:41 <chmod755> hi everyone
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729 2014-09-28 18:56:11 <chmod755> "bad-txns-inputs-spent" << just got that message - does that mean my client might try to use inputs that are already spent until it's sync'd?
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733 2014-09-28 18:59:00 <sipa> it means the node received a transaction that cannot enter the mempool because one or more inputs are not available in either the mempool or the utxo set
734 2014-09-28 19:00:36 jujumax has joined
735 2014-09-28 19:01:53 <therp> I noticed that the style of introducing validation rule changes went from time based in BIP 16 to block version voting in BIP 62. is there anything fundamentially different between those val.rule changes or is it that the latter is just more cautious concensus split-wise?
736 2014-09-28 19:02:27 <sipa> therp: BIP62 suggests the same mechanism as was used in BIP34
737 2014-09-28 19:02:43 <sipa> and yes, just the realization that using block versions is more cautious
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745 2014-09-28 19:06:32 <therp> sipa: thanks, I thought so. is there any consensus change that was done based on block height? not that it's that much different from time...
746 2014-09-28 19:07:08 <therp> s/consensus/val.rules/
747 2014-09-28 19:07:23 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: no, linux took a shit and spewed something causing my motherboard to no longer post
748 2014-09-28 19:07:30 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: so...gotta wait for rma
749 2014-09-28 19:08:08 <Happzz> is there a way to force bitcoind to broadcast a transaction, even though it was already broadcasted?
750 2014-09-28 19:08:27 <sipa> therp: afaik, the only post-satoshi softforks have been bip16, bip30 and bip34
751 2014-09-28 19:09:02 <sipa> and in satoshi times it was just "here is a new version; upgrade"
752 2014-09-28 19:09:11 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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754 2014-09-28 19:12:27 <chmod755> sipa, how do i remove this invalid transaction?
755 2014-09-28 19:12:37 <michagogo> chmod755: you don't
756 2014-09-28 19:12:39 <michagogo> it was rejected
757 2014-09-28 19:12:42 <michagogo> just ignore it
758 2014-09-28 19:12:52 <chmod755> michagogo, but it's still in my client?
759 2014-09-28 19:12:58 <michagogo> It's not, no
760 2014-09-28 19:13:07 <michagogo> I mean, it wasn't your transaction, was it?
761 2014-09-28 19:13:42 <chmod755> it was
762 2014-09-28 19:15:48 <sipa> chmod755: you can play with -zapwallettxes, but have a backup
763 2014-09-28 19:16:22 <chmod755> ok
764 2014-09-28 19:17:25 <kdomanski> <aschildbach> I'm hoping that one day, when HD is better understood, we'll get together and create the one standard that unifies all⦠(or most)
765 2014-09-28 19:17:27 <kdomanski> http://xkcd.com/927/
766 2014-09-28 19:18:02 <sipa> i don't even need to click that link to know what xkcd you're referring to :)
767 2014-09-28 19:18:30 <kdomanski> heh
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778 2014-09-28 19:40:37 <melvster> when a public key is hashed to create a bitcoin address is it a single sha256 or double sha256?
779 2014-09-28 19:41:03 <sipa> it's sha256 + ripemd160
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782 2014-09-28 19:42:35 <melvster> sipa: i know the ripemd160 part, but is that first sha256, single or double?
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784 2014-09-28 19:43:17 <sipa> single
785 2014-09-28 19:43:33 <melvster> sipa: thanks! must be one of the few times single sha256 is used in the codebase ...
786 2014-09-28 19:43:50 <sipa> it's always either sha256+sha256 or sha256+ripemd160
787 2014-09-28 19:43:55 <melvster> ty!
788 2014-09-28 19:45:06 <therp> why is it that only the hash is part of the output script and not the pubkey? it ends up being part of the block chain anyway once it's spent. was satoshi trying to minimize public key crypto attack windows?
789 2014-09-28 19:45:19 Cusp has joined
790 2014-09-28 19:45:38 <sipa> in the original design, full public keys went in
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794 2014-09-28 19:46:01 <sipa> "addresses" were just something added later for the case where you couldn't directly talk to your recipient
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797 2014-09-28 19:46:37 <sipa> and as he probably didn't know about compressed public keys, sending 65 bytes of binary data was probably considered too much, so he wanted something shorter
798 2014-09-28 19:46:50 <earlz> I find it interesting that originally you sent not to public keys or addresses, but rather to an IP address that sent back a public key/address
799 2014-09-28 19:46:58 <sipa> yup
800 2014-09-28 19:47:04 <sipa> same as in the payment protocol now, really
801 2014-09-28 19:47:07 <sipa> just a bit more secure
802 2014-09-28 19:47:18 <earlz> a shame NAT makes all that complicated
803 2014-09-28 19:47:22 <therp> sending to an IP seems terribly insecure
804 2014-09-28 19:47:26 <sipa> it was
805 2014-09-28 19:47:34 <sipa> which is one of the reasons for deprecating it
806 2014-09-28 19:48:10 <sipa> but architecturally, it's much nicer, as it allows you to send comments on transactions (which don't go into the blockchain), verify that the receiver still has the key, avoids address reuse, ...
807 2014-09-28 19:48:49 <sipa> therp: however, there is a good reason now, which is that the output scripts end up in the UTXO set, while input scripts don't
808 2014-09-28 19:50:15 <sipa> and what you mention too- computing a preimage for sha256+ripemd160 is presumably harder than solving 256-bit ecdlp
809 2014-09-28 19:50:38 <therp> well, the output script domain is so limited anyway due to standard vs. non-standard, one might just compress the UTXO set using templates for all the transactions
810 2014-09-28 19:50:40 <sipa> (160 bit vs 128 bit security)
811 2014-09-28 19:50:45 <sipa> therp: we do
812 2014-09-28 19:50:59 <sipa> but you can't throw away data
813 2014-09-28 19:51:06 <therp> I should start to read the source code for leisure
814 2014-09-28 19:51:08 <earlz> a good hashing algorithm's brute force complexity is "heat death of the universe" lol
815 2014-09-28 19:51:18 <earlz> doesn't matter if it's 128 bit, 256, or 512
816 2014-09-28 19:51:38 <sipa> counting to 2^128 is beyond human reach now, but it's not universe-scala
817 2014-09-28 19:51:45 <sipa> 2^256 is
818 2014-09-28 19:51:52 <sipa> *universe-scale
819 2014-09-28 19:52:10 <therp> sipa: what's the devs thinking on scripts in general? to me they seem to be a blind alley, something to do away with entirely
820 2014-09-28 19:52:17 <sipa> therp: heh
821 2014-09-28 19:52:32 * therp note to myself: check on how etherum is doing.
822 2014-09-28 19:52:33 <sipa> i think they are the coolest and most underused feature :)
823 2014-09-28 19:52:44 <earlz> scripts are what make bitcoin future proof
824 2014-09-28 19:52:52 <sipa> it's just the user experience part that is unsolved
825 2014-09-28 19:53:21 <therp> sipa: what interesting scripts could I write? (not considering that they are non-standard)
826 2014-09-28 19:53:39 <sipa> therp: i think the most interesting ones are standard now (in git head)
827 2014-09-28 19:53:51 <sipa> just various multisig things
828 2014-09-28 19:53:52 <edcba> i think scripts are useless if there is not a bit of introspection...
829 2014-09-28 19:54:23 <sipa> atomic cross-chain swapping is nice
830 2014-09-28 19:54:24 <edcba> best to just codify transaction types imo
831 2014-09-28 19:54:49 <sipa> edcba: that requires a hardfork any time someone comes up with a new use case
832 2014-09-28 19:55:01 <sipa> a generic scripting engine allows gradual introduction
833 2014-09-28 19:55:24 <edcba> hmm
834 2014-09-28 19:55:56 <edcba> unless you can accept results of a transaction even without validating it
835 2014-09-28 19:56:03 <earlz> I've had dreams of a "MVBC" minimum viable blockchain, as an experiment of understanding how bitcoin works at it's lowest level... One of my first thoughts on scripts was making it so that there be some way to make new transaction types standardized without code changes
836 2014-09-28 19:56:18 <edcba> ie you don't know some type but some miner validated it, you validate it nonetheless
837 2014-09-28 19:56:38 <edcba> but that looks a bit dangerous :/
838 2014-09-28 19:56:38 <sipa> edcba: that's SPV security
839 2014-09-28 19:57:35 <therp> earlz: I found http://cryptonite.info/files/mbc-scheme-rev2.pdf an interesting read.
840 2014-09-28 19:57:37 <earlz> Like where there are 2 tx types to start, send to address, send to public key.. and then to add a new transaction type, some grand event must happen where a lot of coins are spent and miners vote in some way on the blockchain... and the idea being that once a new tx type is standardized, code changes can be made for optimizations
841 2014-09-28 19:57:58 <sipa> earlz: you confuse the trust model in bitcoin
842 2014-09-28 19:58:14 <sipa> miners don't set the rules; full nodes do - miners are clients trying to satisfy those rules
843 2014-09-28 19:58:24 <therp> earlz: but I am not sure if that's what you are talking about.... as this is not really about transactions rather about taking the blockchain apart
844 2014-09-28 19:58:35 <sipa> indeed
845 2014-09-28 19:58:37 <earlz> hmm.. good point. It's a shaem there is no real benefit to running a node though
846 2014-09-28 19:58:44 <sipa> of course there is!
847 2014-09-28 19:58:45 <Apocalyptic> there is
848 2014-09-28 19:58:53 <sipa> it allows you to accept transactions without needing to trust anyone
849 2014-09-28 19:59:04 <earlz> Also I envision a turing complete blockchain script (evilgrin)
850 2014-09-28 19:59:12 <Apocalyptic> sigh
851 2014-09-28 19:59:18 <sipa> i think that would be the Worst Idea Ever(tm)
852 2014-09-28 19:59:20 bedeho has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
853 2014-09-28 19:59:26 <sipa> in terms of DoS protection and economic incentives
854 2014-09-28 19:59:42 <earlz> But couldn't you just limit the number of instructions that could be executed?
855 2014-09-28 19:59:53 <sipa> then it isn't turing complete :p
856 2014-09-28 19:59:57 <edcba> almost turing complete with # of limited cycles :)
857 2014-09-28 20:00:16 <earlz> well of course.. nothing is turing complete at some level
858 2014-09-28 20:00:33 <earlz> your computer isn't turing complete unless you have infinite memory, etc
859 2014-09-28 20:00:33 <CodeShark> I have an infinitely long piece of tape
860 2014-09-28 20:01:04 <sipa> CodeShark: can you please write a '1' on position (Graham's number) ?
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864 2014-09-28 20:01:43 <edcba> well he will just redefine the origin according to '1' position :)
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866 2014-09-28 20:02:58 <CodeShark> I could, but it would take me an infinite amount of time
867 2014-09-28 20:03:25 <CodeShark> or an unboundedly large amount of time
868 2014-09-28 20:04:23 <CodeShark> anyhow, the scripting language shouldn't be part of the core protocol
869 2014-09-28 20:04:39 <sipa> it's perfectly abstractable
870 2014-09-28 20:04:40 <CodeShark> the core protocol should just concern itself with decentralized consensus on ordering
871 2014-09-28 20:05:22 <CodeShark> as to the exact contents on the stuff being ordered, that's for other layers to deal with
872 2014-09-28 20:05:28 <therp> CodeShark: then your network/blockchain is vulnerable to flooding, no?
873 2014-09-28 20:05:57 <sipa> you could have a blockchain that has no validity rules, and is only used for publishing data and getting the world to get single view
874 2014-09-28 20:05:59 <CodeShark> you probably still need an intrinsic currency of some form and a very simple transaction format (that is not scriptable)
875 2014-09-28 20:06:19 <sipa> but that has little dos protection
876 2014-09-28 20:06:19 <CodeShark> just to incentivize mining and prevent flooding
877 2014-09-28 20:06:23 <sipa> and has no support for SPV
878 2014-09-28 20:07:02 <edcba> satoshi needs to invent a protocol to get consensus on IRC
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880 2014-09-28 20:09:18 <therp> CodeShark: that miners need block reward will go away at some point.. so that's a temporay problem :)
881 2014-09-28 20:09:31 <CodeShark> why would they go away at some point?
882 2014-09-28 20:09:44 <CodeShark> the intrinsic currency could be exchanged for others
883 2014-09-28 20:10:00 <CodeShark> others that DO support sophisticated scripting
884 2014-09-28 20:10:20 <therp> CodeShark: I could pay miners to mine my transaction in the next layer
885 2014-09-28 20:10:47 <CodeShark> yes, you could
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888 2014-09-28 20:11:20 <CodeShark> but that might not be the optimal arrangement
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890 2014-09-28 20:11:33 <CodeShark> mining hardware could be optimized for the very simple protocol
891 2014-09-28 20:11:52 <CodeShark> with no need to execute complex programs
892 2014-09-28 20:12:07 <therp> mining hardware isn't optimized for anything in bitcoin protocol, right now. it's not even optimized for full sha256 IIRC
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894 2014-09-28 20:13:29 <CodeShark> the other obvious advantage of not having the scripting be done at the raw level is the ability to massively merge mine
895 2014-09-28 20:14:18 <CodeShark> you could have a single blockchain securing the ordering of many, many databases
896 2014-09-28 20:14:43 <earlz> heh I think there is a hardfork BIP that discusses that somewhat
897 2014-09-28 20:14:44 <therp> CodeShark: mining nowadays doesn't involve validation at all unfortunately.
898 2014-09-28 20:15:06 <therp> CodeShark: but yes, the block header could be rearranged I supposed to better support merged mining
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900 2014-09-28 20:16:15 <earlz> I was a 128 bit nonce field instead of 32bit,while we're making wishes lol
901 2014-09-28 20:16:19 <earlz> want*
902 2014-09-28 20:16:35 <melvster> sorry if this is off-topic but on the subject of sha256, just saw this -- genius! http://www.righto.com/2014/09/mining-bitcoin-with-pencil-and-paper.html
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904 2014-09-28 20:17:00 <earlz> lol that reminds me of an onion article
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906 2014-09-28 20:17:11 <CodeShark> heh
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909 2014-09-28 20:18:40 <CodeShark> "â¦performing the algorithm manually is a good way to understand exactly how it works." - or you could just write a program and get a similar level of understanding without actually having to manually compute xors
910 2014-09-28 20:18:52 <melvster> lol
911 2014-09-28 20:19:25 <melvster> actually studies have shown that reading a physical book gives you more knowledge than a digital one
912 2014-09-28 20:19:27 <therp> CodeShark: :) nod.
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914 2014-09-28 20:20:04 <therp> CodeShark: knuth once said something along the lines, "he needs to implement algorithms a couple of times to understand them."
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916 2014-09-28 20:20:31 <CodeShark> I still don't fully understand the Risch algorithm
917 2014-09-28 20:20:31 <therp> oh good old knuth. I would wish he would destroy the scientific publishers.. but that' s OT.
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922 2014-09-28 20:24:16 <gmaxwell> 12:02 < sipa> and in satoshi times it was just "here is a new version; upgrade"
923 2014-09-28 20:24:25 <gmaxwell> there were several height triggered.
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975 2014-09-28 21:11:29 <mrebola> Good day everyone :D
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977 2014-09-28 21:11:49 * OGF tips his fedora
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1064 2014-09-28 23:05:19 ahmed_ is now known as ahmed_ZzZz
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1069 2014-09-28 23:16:54 <HaltingState> sipa.... #define SECP256K1_START_VERIFY (1 << 0)
1070 2014-09-28 23:16:54 <HaltingState> #define SECP256K1_START_SIGN (1 << 1) why is that not just #define X 0, #define Y 1
1071 2014-09-28 23:17:42 Cusp has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1072 2014-09-28 23:18:38 <gmaxwell> HaltingState: makes it clear that you can OR them.
1073 2014-09-28 23:18:44 goykasi has joined
1074 2014-09-28 23:19:50 <HaltingState> ahh
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1084 2014-09-28 23:40:04 dfletcher is now known as Hyp-Lotto
1085 2014-09-28 23:40:32 Hyp-Lotto is now known as dfletcher
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1088 2014-09-28 23:41:26 <bliljerk101> Anyone active with a lot of experience using bitcoind, the accounts db API, and also raw transactions API?
1089 2014-09-28 23:41:56 <michagogo> bliljerk101: I'm actually about to go to sleep, but I can tell you a couple things
1090 2014-09-28 23:42:18 <bliljerk101> PMing you
1091 2014-09-28 23:42:19 <michagogo> Mainly that accounts probably don't do what you think they do and you very likely shouldn't be using them
1092 2014-09-28 23:42:30 <michagogo> keep your books outside of bitcoind.
1093 2014-09-28 23:43:47 <bliljerk101> you get my PM's?
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1097 2014-09-28 23:47:58 <bliljerk101> Anybody else around with a lot of expertise and a few minutes? I can pay you for your time.
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1100 2014-09-28 23:56:00 dfletcher is now known as HyperLotto
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