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  30 2014-09-29 01:16:02 <andytoshi> bliljerk101: have you read https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/accounts-faq.pdf ?
  31 2014-09-29 01:16:41 <andytoshi> i also have a rawtx writeup but i assume you know this https://testing.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/rawtx.html
  32 2014-09-29 01:18:58 <kanzure> andytoshi: off-topic, but it is hard to know whether there is a page missing in your pdf document (such as if the download was incomplete) because the last page is never marked (usually conclusion sections give it away, but an eof would be hepful in its absence)
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  34 2014-09-29 01:20:40 <andytoshi> kanzure: good idea, i will update the *-faq documents at some point with that
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  79 2014-09-29 02:22:32 <jgarzik> woo
  80 2014-09-29 02:22:35 <jgarzik> pull #5000
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  92 2014-09-29 02:46:52 <horny-sama> Anyone in here familiar with java and is willing to give me a hand
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  95 2014-09-29 02:47:45 <bliljerk101> andytoshi thanks, i read it briefly, but i understand all of this already. my problem is more of an implementation engineering problem
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  97 2014-09-29 02:48:03 <horny-sama> need some help with java
  98 2014-09-29 02:48:06 <horny-sama> comrade
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 101 2014-09-29 02:50:13 <bliljerk101> i'm not a java developer, sorry
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 103 2014-09-29 02:50:28 <horny-sama> no worries
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 114 2014-09-29 03:09:20 <horny-sama> Luke-Jr: you are everywhere
 115 2014-09-29 03:10:01 <bliljerk101> horny-sama hentai-san sounds better
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 229 2014-09-29 06:16:36 <SomeoneWeird> bliljerk101: lets not do that...
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 284 2014-09-29 07:40:01 <mrebola> see you later alligator
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 293 2014-09-29 07:41:26 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I've done various block syncs with master over the weekend (with gui and daemon), and haven't been able to reproduce any crashes; anything specific about your setup?
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 325 2014-09-29 08:22:51 <petertodd> jgarzik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4EuqGZKTH4
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 331 2014-09-29 08:31:00 <wumpus> petertodd: congrats :-)
 332 2014-09-29 08:31:37 <petertodd> wumpus: I swear it was totally not planned, really!
 333 2014-09-29 08:33:29 <wumpus> petertodd: we need to spin this into a media story about how fast bitcoin core development is going
 334 2014-09-29 08:34:04 <gmaxwell> hm?
 335 2014-09-29 08:34:09 <petertodd> wumpus: lol, well, here's a new opcode: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/checklocktimeverify
 336 2014-09-29 08:34:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5000
 337 2014-09-29 08:35:02 <gmaxwell> ah!
 338 2014-09-29 08:35:34 <wumpus> "github's database stresses under pace of development" 
 339 2014-09-29 08:35:58 <Happzz> is there any plan on introducing pruning to the core client?
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 341 2014-09-29 08:36:29 <Happzz> because i was thinking about it, and i must have talked about it before.. i can't see any real reason to actually force end users into storing the whole blockchain
 342 2014-09-29 08:36:33 <wumpus> Happzz: you know there's a find function for pull requests: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4701
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 346 2014-09-29 08:37:08 <Happzz> oh, wow.
 347 2014-09-29 08:39:24 <Happzz> how do we make sure people wont "change the history", though?
 348 2014-09-29 08:39:38 <sipa> because pruning does not change validation
 349 2014-09-29 08:39:46 <sipa> you still need to download and process all history
 350 2014-09-29 08:39:55 <sipa> you only just keep the last part of it on disk
 351 2014-09-29 08:40:46 <Happzz> yup, but once pruning is widely enough adopted, where would you download everything from to begin with?
 352 2014-09-29 08:40:55 <wumpus> from nodes that don't prune
 353 2014-09-29 08:41:10 <Happzz> i.e. from a small portion of the nodes
 354 2014-09-29 08:41:10 <sipa> and if everyone prunes, i'll seed jeff's torrent
 355 2014-09-29 08:41:24 <Happzz> ... = centralization
 356 2014-09-29 08:41:30 <sipa> yes
 357 2014-09-29 08:41:35 <wumpus> well, that's what you get
 358 2014-09-29 08:41:39 <sipa> but no reduction in trustlessness
 359 2014-09-29 08:41:51 <wumpus> if that matters to you, keep the entire blockchain
 360 2014-09-29 08:41:56 <sipa> you end up with a central party, but not a trusted central party (which is much worse)
 361 2014-09-29 08:42:17 <gmaxwell> Happzz: in any case, there is no risk of that now. At the moment pruning turns off node network which effectively disables relaying blocks, and disables the wallet.
 362 2014-09-29 08:42:25 <wumpus> if you don't keep the information yourself by definition you rely on others (although not in a trusted sense, indeed)
 363 2014-09-29 08:42:29 WormDrink has joined
 364 2014-09-29 08:42:53 <Happzz> gmaxwell i dont understand what you just said..
 365 2014-09-29 08:43:01 <gmaxwell> Subsiquently I plan to implement signaling block ranges, so that even if no one stores the whole thing you can assemble a complete copy from people storing parts.
 366 2014-09-29 08:43:04 <wumpus> it's a strange thing to be asking for something and then start to argue why it's a bad idea :)
 367 2014-09-29 08:43:26 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, have you figured out how to do that yet?
 368 2014-09-29 08:43:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: we should ust use a DHT for blocks
 369 2014-09-29 08:43:30 <Happzz> is there a way to keep *part* of the blocks' data to still verify, but not necessarily keep ALL of the data of each block?
 370 2014-09-29 08:43:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, >.>
 371 2014-09-29 08:43:43 <Happzz> wumpus it's called brainstorming
 372 2014-09-29 08:43:45 <gmaxwell> Happzz: sorry, I don't know how I could have used simpler language there. Right now the feature disables the wallet. It disables relaying blocks, so there is no risk of people rushing out and turning it on.
 373 2014-09-29 08:43:47 <sipa> Happzz: verification doesn't need blocks at all
 374 2014-09-29 08:43:54 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i was thinking nodes would keep blocks with a specific prefix (suffix?)
 375 2014-09-29 08:44:00 <phantomcircuit> (the random end)
 376 2014-09-29 08:44:10 <gmaxwell> random is bad. it has poor locality.
 377 2014-09-29 08:44:14 <sipa> Happzz: the only reason you need to keep blocks around it to _show_ them to new peers
 378 2014-09-29 08:44:33 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im not sure it matters with headers first
 379 2014-09-29 08:44:35 DeepSpace has left ("I don't want to be here anymore. Bye bitches!")
 380 2014-09-29 08:45:03 <wumpus> sipa: apart from the last few blocks, for rewinding when a reorg happens
 381 2014-09-29 08:45:11 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure it does, since you have to open a connection and we cannot sensibly support unbounded reordering.
 382 2014-09-29 08:45:14 <Happzz> sipa i mean something else. maybe my thought comes from lack of understanding, so i'll appreciate if you correct me on this: each block has a hash, right? do you actually need the _content_ of the block, in order to verify it was valid 10 years ago, or do you must have the whole content of the block as well?
 383 2014-09-29 08:45:15 <sipa> wumpus: you _could_ just wipe and restart in that case, even
 384 2014-09-29 08:45:20 <wumpus> sipa: .... true!
 385 2014-09-29 08:45:37 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, unbounded reordering?
 386 2014-09-29 08:45:43 <gmaxwell> Happzz: you don't need to have the content anymore once you've already validated it.
 387 2014-09-29 08:45:45 <sipa> Happzz: you need to _see_ a block's contents to validate it, but you don't need to keep it around after that
 388 2014-09-29 08:46:00 <sipa> and you need those blocks in order
 389 2014-09-29 08:46:24 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: if you're validating block 10000 now, getting block 100000 will do you no good. All you could do is save it for much later (which is potentially a dos attack)
 390 2014-09-29 08:46:30 <Happzz> would it make sense to make it so nodes only keep last 100K blocks, or whatever other reasonable number of blocks, and that way
 391 2014-09-29 08:46:34 <Happzz> "shorten" the history?
 392 2014-09-29 08:46:40 <wumpus> nodes keep a running state of the blocks they've've seen and validated, aka the UTXO set
 393 2014-09-29 08:46:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm
 394 2014-09-29 08:46:56 <phantomcircuit> i see what you mean
 395 2014-09-29 08:46:58 <Happzz> in fact, i can't happen, because ancient coins may be lost.
 396 2014-09-29 08:47:09 <phantomcircuit> that seems to leave us with specifying ranges of blocks
 397 2014-09-29 08:47:21 <sipa> Happzz: all you need is the UTXO set
 398 2014-09-29 08:47:36 <sipa> Happzz: which has the state of _all_ coins, including those produced by pruned blocks
 399 2014-09-29 08:47:58 <Happzz> that's what *I* need. i'm trying to think what the network needs as well.
 400 2014-09-29 08:48:13 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I guess you missed my shuffle idea... just need to figure out how to make it efficient.
 401 2014-09-29 08:48:14 <Happzz> i realize i could be pruning a bunch of what i have in hands, because i trust myself and i already verified it
 402 2014-09-29 08:48:37 <Happzz> but that means much less full nodes, which means centralization.
 403 2014-09-29 08:48:49 <wumpus> it doesn't mean 'much less full nodes'
 404 2014-09-29 08:48:55 <wumpus> right now, people stop running a full nodes if their disk is full
 405 2014-09-29 08:48:58 <sipa> Happzz: you can be a fully validating node, which just doesn't know history
 406 2014-09-29 08:49:04 <Happzz> wumpus we're not at that point yet
 407 2014-09-29 08:49:08 <sipa> Happzz: which is still massively useful (for you, and for others)
 408 2014-09-29 08:49:10 <wumpus> with pruning they can keep running a full node with only the last blocks
 409 2014-09-29 08:49:15 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: first observe that it's possible to unformly select N lines out of a huge number using only N memory.
 410 2014-09-29 08:49:20 <wumpus> which means more verifying nodes
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 412 2014-09-29 08:49:41 <wumpus> not more archive nodes, but remember, you'd have lost them as archive nodes in the first place
 413 2014-09-29 08:50:12 <sipa> Happzz: storage of blocks could even just be completely outsourced to other systems (bittorrent? http? freenet? dropbox?)
 414 2014-09-29 08:50:20 <wumpus> if the P2P protocol had a way to advertise block ranges, nodes  could keep multiple ranges of blocks, ie the first 100000 as well as the last blocks, and the storage could be distributed too
 415 2014-09-29 08:50:22 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: so you can say have a short random seed for a host, and a capacity... and then play forward the height and find out at a particular height what ranges they are currently storing.
 416 2014-09-29 08:50:23 <sipa> Happzz: which may be more or less decentralized than bitcoin full nodes
 417 2014-09-29 08:50:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I just don't know how to do it without O(N) work in the number of blocks to find out what a node is storing now.
 418 2014-09-29 08:51:07 <Happzz> sipa but.. if the whole history is on dropbox, and nodes only keep the UTXO and verify newer blocks. couldn't dropbox change the history and cause chaos?
 419 2014-09-29 08:51:13 <sipa> Happzz: no
 420 2014-09-29 08:51:19 <sipa> they could delete blocks
 421 2014-09-29 08:51:22 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the result, in any case, is uniformly distributed storage, and just a short (e.g. 8 byte) signaling.
 422 2014-09-29 08:51:42 <Happzz> sipa i.e. delete money.
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 424 2014-09-29 08:51:48 <sipa> Happzz: no
 425 2014-09-29 08:51:49 <wumpus> Happzz: no, and keeping it on dropbox is just an example, in practice you'd store it on multiple storage systems not controlled by one actor, or use a distributed protocol such as torrents
 426 2014-09-29 08:51:54 <sipa> Happzz: just prevent new full nodes from spinning up
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 430 2014-09-29 08:52:24 <Happzz> sipa because new nodes couldn't fetch the whole history and prune it properly, right?
 431 2014-09-29 08:52:37 <sipa> couldn't _validate_ it
 432 2014-09-29 08:52:41 <sipa> so they can't sync
 433 2014-09-29 08:52:49 <petertodd> Happzz: people can be *lazy* and trust dropbox's/their neighbors/whatever copy of the UTXO set and not bother to actually validate the blockchain, but that's being lazy
 434 2014-09-29 08:52:51 <sipa> but it wouldn't affect running full nodes
 435 2014-09-29 08:53:03 <Happzz> i see.
 436 2014-09-29 08:53:08 <sipa> it's a DoS risk
 437 2014-09-29 08:53:10 <sipa> not a security risk
 438 2014-09-29 08:53:29 <petertodd> Happzz: you'll still be able to get the complete history from archival nodes even if no one person has the full blockchain, and you can then verify that full history yourself
 439 2014-09-29 08:53:41 <sipa> a centralized party that fails can prevent the system from working
 440 2014-09-29 08:53:54 <sipa> a centralized trusted party that fails can make the system malfunction
 441 2014-09-29 08:53:56 <wumpus> there is really no risk of *everyone* deleting their copy of a certain block, it's just too big in scale for that
 442 2014-09-29 08:53:57 <petertodd> Happzz: that said, I *strongly* suspect that without (U)TXO commitments people will get lazy and there will be occasional disasters...
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 445 2014-09-29 08:54:35 <gmaxwell> Just for performance reasons I prefer to have distributed copies too; this lets people be granular in the storage or bandwidth they contribute instead of big all or nothing chunks.
 446 2014-09-29 08:55:03 <gmaxwell> And avoids creating bandwidth hotspots around the nodes that do have all the data ("some grattitude, I host all the data and they melt my internet connection") :)
 447 2014-09-29 08:55:04 <Happzz> gmaxwell i guess people could volunteer to run full nodes.
 448 2014-09-29 08:55:19 <gmaxwell> Happzz: A pruned node is a full node.
 449 2014-09-29 08:55:19 <sipa> Happzz: s/full nodes/archive nodes/
 450 2014-09-29 08:55:20 <petertodd> Happzz: full node != archival node
 451 2014-09-29 08:55:23 <Happzz> sipa k
 452 2014-09-29 08:55:33 <Happzz> yeah, sorry for the wrong terminology.
 453 2014-09-29 08:55:34 <wumpus> Happzz: that's already how it goes, right?
 454 2014-09-29 08:55:43 <petertodd> Happzz: in fact, you can have archival nodes that aren't full nodes and only have SPV security, heck, you can have the entire blockchain and not bother to verify it
 455 2014-09-29 08:55:43 <wumpus> running a full node is completely voluntary
 456 2014-09-29 08:55:53 <gmaxwell> and distributed copies also close down paranoia like Happzz's.
 457 2014-09-29 08:55:56 <sipa> petertodd: my apache can be an archival node
 458 2014-09-29 08:56:14 <petertodd> sipa: oh cool! I like the idea of an archival node that can fly
 459 2014-09-29 08:56:20 <wumpus> petertodd: you could just send around blockchain on USB sticks :P
 460 2014-09-29 08:56:24 <Happzz> ew apace.
 461 2014-09-29 08:56:26 <Happzz> apache even
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 463 2014-09-29 08:56:45 <sipa> petertodd: dude, a bit respect for those indians, please
 464 2014-09-29 08:56:49 <petertodd> wumpus: blockchainbymail.com <- no joke
 465 2014-09-29 08:57:06 <petertodd> wumpus: I actually sold those guys that domain name
 466 2014-09-29 08:57:10 <wumpus> petertodd: whoa, cool
 467 2014-09-29 08:57:20 <Happzz> i believe bittorrent would be so much better than the current method of downloading the blockchain
 468 2014-09-29 08:57:30 <petertodd> wumpus: I highly suspect their # of customers is zero :) esp with them talking about a "10GB blockchain"
 469 2014-09-29 08:57:39 <Happzz> because downloading 25gb from maximum 8 random nodes is shit
 470 2014-09-29 08:57:40 <petertodd> Happzz: bittorrent isn't magic...
 471 2014-09-29 08:57:41 <sipa> Happzz: headersfirst sync is superior, as it doesn't need temporary storage :)
 472 2014-09-29 08:57:59 <wumpus> petertodd: at some point that can be more efficient than downloading through the internet 
 473 2014-09-29 08:58:02 <sipa> Happzz: the current method of downloading the blockchain only downloads from one peer
 474 2014-09-29 08:58:02 <gmaxwell> Happzz: headersfirst is massively faster than bittorrent in my testing.
 475 2014-09-29 08:58:03 <Happzz> i have no idea what headersfirst sync is, but i'll go ahead and google it
 476 2014-09-29 08:58:24 <petertodd> wumpus: I've personally given people copies of the blockchain via USB stick!
 477 2014-09-29 08:58:28 <sipa> Happzz: it's the new download/validation logic that enables parallel download
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 479 2014-09-29 08:59:04 <sipa> Happzz: in practice, the current method of downloading downloads from 1 peer 10% of the time, and from 0 peers 90% of the time :)
 480 2014-09-29 08:59:30 <Happzz> what's headers-first in a few words? i cant seem to find much info online
 481 2014-09-29 08:59:45 <gmaxwell> fortunately the data transfer from 0 peers is provably optimal, no overhead at all.
 482 2014-09-29 08:59:49 <sipa> Happzz: you first download and validate the headers (from one peer, like the current sync mechanism)
 483 2014-09-29 09:00:03 <Happzz> and then the content of the blocks?
 484 2014-09-29 09:00:06 <wumpus> gmaxwell: hah
 485 2014-09-29 09:00:14 <sipa> Happzz: then you fetch the blocks (which you already know in order) in parallel using a moving window, from all peers at once
 486 2014-09-29 09:00:36 <Happzz> and what makes it so much faste?
 487 2014-09-29 09:00:38 <Happzz> faster
 488 2014-09-29 09:00:47 <sipa> the fact that it knows in advance what to d
 489 2014-09-29 09:00:48 <Happzz> you still need to get 25gb from N nodes
 490 2014-09-29 09:01:06 <sipa> so it can be parallellized, and recover from peers that behave weird
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 492 2014-09-29 09:01:15 <Happzz> oh, so it doesn't have to get blocks 1 by 1
 493 2014-09-29 09:01:23 <gmaxwell> Happzz: I'm not sure you saw, 01:52 < sipa> Happzz: in practice, the current method of downloading downloads from 1 peer 10% of the time, and from 0 peers  90% of the time :)
 494 2014-09-29 09:01:38 <Happzz> i saw it, i didnt understand what it means though,
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 496 2014-09-29 09:01:50 <Happzz> im like the NSA, i see everything.
 497 2014-09-29 09:01:54 <sipa> it means your node isn't doing anything at all most of the time during sync
 498 2014-09-29 09:02:12 <sipa> because it doesn't know what to do
 499 2014-09-29 09:02:26 <Happzz> yup, makes sense.
 500 2014-09-29 09:02:36 <sipa> headersfirst sync takes 3-4 hour on recent hardware
 501 2014-09-29 09:03:07 <Happzz> this is still pretty much for end users
 502 2014-09-29 09:03:23 <sipa> yes
 503 2014-09-29 09:03:25 <Happzz> not complaining, because it took me like 20 hours...
 504 2014-09-29 09:03:26 <sipa> inevitably
 505 2014-09-29 09:03:30 <wumpus> who are these 'end users' anyway?
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 507 2014-09-29 09:03:38 <Happzz> wumpus my mom and dad.
 508 2014-09-29 09:03:44 <Happzz> wumpus and their 16gb iphones
 509 2014-09-29 09:03:52 <sipa> they should be running a light client...
 510 2014-09-29 09:03:57 <wumpus> if you put yourself in the position that you're hurried to get the chain verified, you start from the wrong assumptions
 511 2014-09-29 09:04:01 <gmaxwell> Happzz: how is it 'long' for them? it should be occuring in the background in any case.
 512 2014-09-29 09:04:20 <Happzz> gmaxwell it's faster to open a bank account.
 513 2014-09-29 09:04:21 <wumpus> Happzz: so mom and dad volunteer to run a full node... why the hurry?
 514 2014-09-29 09:04:40 <wumpus> my mom and dad run a full node, they hardly aware of it
 515 2014-09-29 09:04:41 <gmaxwell> Happzz: I'm guessing you've never opened a bank account. In the US you're required to show up in person with proof of address. :)
 516 2014-09-29 09:04:48 <gmaxwell> (ask mom and dad about it, I guess)
 517 2014-09-29 09:05:19 <Happzz> im not from the US, but i have had bank accounts for years.
 518 2014-09-29 09:05:26 <gmaxwell> But you've missed my point... you can't use a bank account until you've opened it. There shouldn't be a need to wait on your full node to verify to do anything.
 519 2014-09-29 09:05:29 <Happzz> it takes much less than 4 hours to open an account.
 520 2014-09-29 09:05:30 <wumpus> you shouldn't compare it with opening a bank account
 521 2014-09-29 09:05:36 <petertodd> Happzz: there's also my idea of partial UTXO set nodes, that start off with SPV security and scan backwards until they're full nodes that have 100% verified the blockchain: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg02511.html
 522 2014-09-29 09:05:46 <Happzz> gmaxwell yeah, makes sense.
 523 2014-09-29 09:06:49 <wumpus> if you're a first-time bitcoin user you don't *need* a full node, you should probably not even try, except if you're interested technically
 524 2014-09-29 09:07:09 oujh has joined
 525 2014-09-29 09:07:56 <wumpus> (wonder why these things always assume mom and dad are untechnical though)
 526 2014-09-29 09:08:18 * sipa learned how to program from his dad
 527 2014-09-29 09:08:24 * wumpus too
 528 2014-09-29 09:08:27 <sipa> (he never got past BASIC, though)
 529 2014-09-29 09:08:29 <gmaxwell> wumpus: ideally it should be painless enough that you can just "contribute this much space and bandwidth to the bitcoin network; you'll get somewhat improved security if you do"
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 534 2014-09-29 09:08:53 <petertodd> wumpus: we should assume fine arts graduates instead
 535 2014-09-29 09:10:07 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agreed, that would be the goal
 536 2014-09-29 09:10:26 <gmaxwell> Even my grandmother is tech savvy, she worked for Wang Laboratories back when it was still a thing.
 537 2014-09-29 09:10:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it's interesting how with compact fraud proofs even SPV clients storing nothing that don't even accept incoming connections are definitely contributing to everyone's security
 538 2014-09-29 09:10:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yea, trick is all the engineering for the fraud proofs.
 539 2014-09-29 09:11:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: hah, I finally "forced" my dad to at least move on to Python, though he still struggles with the OO parts :x
 540 2014-09-29 09:11:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm becoming more and more convinced they're not as bad as we thought, modulo of course the obvious stuff where we need to make things provable in the first place
 541 2014-09-29 09:12:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: related: notice how my CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY implementation now only checks that the txin you're spending is !final...
 542 2014-09-29 09:13:54 <petertodd> heh, it was actually my mom who first taught me how RSA signatures worked
 543 2014-09-29 09:13:54 graingert has joined
 544 2014-09-29 09:14:02 <gmaxwell> I never thought they were bad or I wouldn't have said I liked them previously; it's just this maximum: code isn't tested is wrong by definition, code that doesn't run isn't tested.  I think you can do some implementation engineering such that you always do validation by creating proposed fraud proofs and then asking your fraud proof verifier if they're valid fraud proofs... but it still has more exceptional cases than we have today.
 545 2014-09-29 09:15:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: see, if you structure things correctly, fraud proofs are just highly pruned copies of blockchain data - e.g. imagine a fraud proof for a block being nothing more than a CMerkleBlock with a single transaction in it that happens to be invalid
 546 2014-09-29 09:16:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: of course, you still have to test the code making the fraud proofs, but at least the verification part of them can be the same code as standard verification
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 557 2014-09-29 09:20:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: (of course, in that scenario verification returns either 'Valid', 'I don't know; missing data', or 'Invalid')
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 560 2014-09-29 09:25:20 <gmaxwell> actually making can be run normally too.
 561 2014-09-29 09:25:51 <gmaxwell> you just always make one for every transaction you're verifying. e.g. the proof is all the data needed to verify it in its smallest increment.
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 564 2014-09-29 09:31:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: "actually making can be run normally too." <- ?
 565 2014-09-29 09:32:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, notice how TXO commitments txin proofs do that, and the structure required to make them possible is the same thing required for fraud proofs
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 567 2014-09-29 09:32:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I've got a colored coins library whose proof structure lends itself pretty naturally to this kind of stuff; what got me thinking about it
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 570 2014-09-29 09:34:19 <gmaxwell> yea, I had come around to all of this back last time it had come up... it does naturally fit in bitcon too (assuming we could make compact fraud proofs)
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 572 2014-09-29 09:34:31 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you're assuming too much meaning to specific words
 573 2014-09-29 09:34:33 <phantomcircuit> it's confusing
 574 2014-09-29 09:34:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I should write up a demo in Python when I get a chance...
 575 2014-09-29 09:34:54 <gmaxwell> really what caught me up more than the engineering (which was a concern) was the censorship problem, basically there is one kind of fraud that is fundimentally harder to make compact proofs for.
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 577 2014-09-29 09:35:41 <gmaxwell> ... that some part of the block is being witheld, because its a fraud in absence.. (like the current problem of it being not possible to prove the non-existance of a utxo which is being spent)
 578 2014-09-29 09:35:48 <petertodd> gmaxwell: right, and what the censorship problem also indicates is that any serious adversary will just sybil attack your ability to get the fraud proofs in the first place - they'll *always* be categorically less secure than a treechains-like tx history proof
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 580 2014-09-29 09:36:21 <gmaxwell> that sent me on a path of considering linear codes, and I felt like there is a solution there but didn't quite have a crisp statement of it.
 581 2014-09-29 09:36:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: but at least now we're confident that the engineering overlaps 99% for both ways of doing things
 582 2014-09-29 09:36:53 <gmaxwell> Sure, if your goal is your own transaction validity only, being given the complete history of the coins you recieved works, when you care about more than that its more complex.
 583 2014-09-29 09:37:20 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, that linear code stuff I suspect would be sybil attacked away - they'll always be more costly to evaluate than non-linear, so people naturally will disable that codepath in favor of cheaper ways to use bitcoin
 584 2014-09-29 09:37:50 <gmaxwell> in any case, I came up with some scheme of a commited locally testable linear code where someone can't hide any specific part of a block without hiding the whole thing with exponential probablity. But I haven't worked out if its efficient enough to be pratical.
 585 2014-09-29 09:37:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yes, hence why 'global consensus' sucks on so many levels, even if it is attractive as hell on others :)
 586 2014-09-29 09:38:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: did you remember to ensure the linear code commitment can't be frauded? ;)
 587 2014-09-29 09:38:56 <gmaxwell> yes, thats what the 'locally testable' requirement comes from.
 588 2014-09-29 09:39:09 <petertodd> linear codes have the engineering problem that they're !@#$ complex compared to not, so I'm sure we'll see wallets skip them...
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 590 2014-09-29 09:39:46 <gmaxwell> Sure but thats true for anything. Ideally this stuff is nicely libraized and so those who don't care can do the optimal amount of work: zero.
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 592 2014-09-29 09:40:25 <gmaxwell> in any case, I have no clue if its really pratical, the intermediate state required for adequate security may be too large.
 593 2014-09-29 09:40:46 <petertodd> yup
 594 2014-09-29 09:42:12 <petertodd> related: I was thinking a good model to use would be to have EvalScript() get passed a CMerkleTransaction instead of a CTransaction in the toTo, in the sense that any future opcode should be able to get all it's state from that
 595 2014-09-29 09:42:43 <gmaxwell> (for those trying to follow along and failing, petertodd has more context because we've discussed it before.  The general issue is that if you hope to have a network work by everyone only verifying parts of blocks, thats workable if nodes can announce a short segement showing something wrong if they find it (fraud proof). ... but one remaining issue is that a evil miner could just refuse to release part of his block, and obviously no one ...
 596 2014-09-29 09:42:49 <gmaxwell> ... can produce a compact proof of naughtyness for data they don't even have.
 597 2014-09-29 09:43:14 <petertodd> unfortunately that means you'll want to at least internally implement (U)TXO commitments so things like CHECKPREVOUTVALUEVERIFY can work
 598 2014-09-29 09:45:03 <petertodd> might be enough to just implement an internal merkle-tree version of transactions and have all your CHECK<prevtx stuff>VERIFY opcodes first check that the txin.merkle_hash_version_2 matches what they're expecting
 599 2014-09-29 09:45:40 <btcdrak> wow, a lot of reading to catch up on
 600 2014-09-29 09:45:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I feel bad for the peanut gallery right now too :)
 601 2014-09-29 09:46:05 <gmaxwell> I have a conjectural fix for this problem which goes: You change how the block is encoded, so that its encoded with a highly redudant error correcting code. Such that to read any part of a block you pick several segments of the code... and can reconstruct the part you want. The ways you can decode parts overlap, such that a node will need to basically reject one block out of every fetch in order to relably censor any subset of the block).
 602 2014-09-29 09:46:10 <petertodd> btcdrak: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/checklocktimeverify
 603 2014-09-29 09:46:36 <gmaxwell> petertodd: better than zerocash which needs a _transaction internal_ utxo tree too. :P
 604 2014-09-29 09:47:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, true
 605 2014-09-29 09:48:08 <petertodd> btcdrak: next is to write up a regtest-using python script to create nVersion==3 blocks in all the permutations of the IsSuperMajority() function
 606 2014-09-29 09:48:17 <petertodd> btcdrak: the opcode itself is pretty well tested by the unittests
 607 2014-09-29 09:48:53 <petertodd> btcdrak: I'd *highly* suggest that someone other than me do the port to viacoin to ensure we've got another set of eyes on it 100%
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 609 2014-09-29 09:48:56 <gmaxwell> (conjectural, because I've not worked out a set of parameters and seen if it remotely makes sense scaling wise.   One bonus, at least, is that the same encoding could be used to achieve faster block relay.)
 610 2014-09-29 09:49:22 <petertodd> btcdrak: oh, and yeah, needs a BIP of course too
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 612 2014-09-29 09:49:47 <sipa> you need a BIP for viacoin?
 613 2014-09-29 09:49:55 * sipa thinks a VIP is more appropriate
 614 2014-09-29 09:50:09 <gmaxwell> hah that was worth it just for that joke
 615 2014-09-29 09:50:13 <petertodd> sipa: our evil plan is to do a BIP and have you guys argue about it until we're confident we didn't miss anything
 616 2014-09-29 09:50:28 <petertodd> sipa: you'll make a great father one day
 617 2014-09-29 09:50:52 <sipa> ...?
 618 2014-09-29 09:50:52 <gmaxwell> petertodd: working so far, since I already switched you to my alternative construction. :)
 619 2014-09-29 09:51:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: indeed, and then I improved on it slightly :)
 620 2014-09-29 09:51:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: that sounded like a canonical "dad humor"
 621 2014-09-29 09:51:38 <sipa> :(
 622 2014-09-29 09:51:53 <gmaxwell> hah don't be sad. Everyone loves your puns.
 623 2014-09-29 09:52:11 <gmaxwell> (if they can survive them or not is another question…)
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 626 2014-09-29 09:52:18 <sipa> it was no pun intended, actually...
 627 2014-09-29 09:52:30 <petertodd> sipa: sheesh, don't tell us that!
 628 2014-09-29 09:52:43 <gmaxwell> one key to dad humor is never admitting you weren't joking, I think.
 629 2014-09-29 09:52:45 <sipa> i was being serious: wondering whether you were aiming for inclusion in viacoin or in bitcoin
 630 2014-09-29 09:52:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: he's writing it as a proposal for Bitcoin.
 631 2014-09-29 09:52:51 <sipa> I WAS NOT JOKING
 632 2014-09-29 09:52:56 <petertodd> sipa: both!
 633 2014-09-29 09:53:19 <sipa> also, why am i awake?
 634 2014-09-29 09:53:20 <petertodd> sipa: keep in mind, I'm just a consultant, who has clients who want to see it in both viacoin and bitcoin
 635 2014-09-29 09:53:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: I dunno but you're keeping me up so you should quit it.
 636 2014-09-29 09:53:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: likewise
 637 2014-09-29 09:54:05 * petertodd doesn't know what timezone he's in anymore
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 639 2014-09-29 09:55:00 sipa has left ("gmaxwell told me so")
 640 2014-09-29 09:55:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: somewhere in the middle of the pacific I'd guess.
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 642 2014-09-29 09:55:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, given my travels you'd thick smack dab in the middle of the atlantic...
 643 2014-09-29 09:56:44 <gmaxwell> obviously you need to head out to this coast to resynchronize your biorithims or something. I may have an extra actual bed soon.
 644 2014-09-29 09:57:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, I'll be in SF on wednesday actually
 645 2014-09-29 09:57:52 <gmaxwell> ! how long are you out here for? any free time?
 646 2014-09-29 09:57:52 <gribble> Error: "how" is not a valid command.
 647 2014-09-29 09:58:10 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, way to bury the lead
 648 2014-09-29 09:58:13 <petertodd> gmaxwell: until the 4th, should be able to get dinner or something
 649 2014-09-29 09:58:21 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: lol
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 651 2014-09-29 09:58:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: going to the Las Vegas bitcoin conference on the 4th, then back to TO on the 7th(?)
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 654 2014-09-29 10:00:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell, phantomcircuit: SF trip was planned about... yesterday
 655 2014-09-29 10:02:31 <gmaxwell> petertodd: had this been planned better we probably could have gotten 99% of all #bitcoin-wizards and #bitcoin-dev channel traffic in one room. (The results of doing so are no doubt undefined by the laws of physics)
 656 2014-09-29 10:03:08 <petertodd> gmaxwell: haha, yeah, the client this is for is unfortunately somewhat last minute :)
 657 2014-09-29 10:03:52 <gwillen> gmaxwell: be careful, you don't want the feds to know which room to accidentally blow up ;-)
 658 2014-09-29 10:04:27 <gmaxwell> s/s//
 659 2014-09-29 10:06:01 <melvster> can bitcoin core / qt store more than 100 keys?
 660 2014-09-29 10:06:12 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 661 2014-09-29 10:06:16 <melvster> great, thx
 662 2014-09-29 10:06:41 <phantomcircuit> melvster, works with millions
 663 2014-09-29 10:06:48 <phantomcircuit> load time gets slightly annoying though
 664 2014-09-29 10:07:21 <melvster> cool!
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 668 2014-09-29 10:17:35 <btcdrak> sipa: :D)))
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 683 2014-09-29 10:44:46 <wumpus> now that's a low limit; even the default keypool is 100, what doesn't support more than 100 keys?
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 686 2014-09-29 10:47:40 <wumpus> it's annoying how github keeps marking bitcoin project as 'typescript'
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 689 2014-09-29 10:48:50 <btcdrak> wumpus the only way around that is to outsource the transifex files from the repo.
 690 2014-09-29 10:49:16 <wumpus> ...or rename them
 691 2014-09-29 10:49:18 <btcdrak> wumpus in fact, it doesnt really make sense to have the translations in the repo at all, they can just be pulled during "make"
 692 2014-09-29 10:49:29 <wumpus> eh... that would be very wrong
 693 2014-09-29 10:49:34 <wumpus> make shouldn't rely on external sources
 694 2014-09-29 10:49:39 <wumpus> deterministic building, remember? :p
 695 2014-09-29 10:50:06 <btcdrak> wumpus: no reason they cant go in a separate repo then, you can just build that like any other library
 696 2014-09-29 10:50:27 <btcdrak> sipa: quite seriously though. some features we want for viacoin are definitely things that bitcoin would also benefit from: since we keep sync with bitcoin it makes sense to contribute those useful patches to bitcoin first.
 697 2014-09-29 10:50:41 <wumpus> well one good thing, most of it will get split off with the wallet
 698 2014-09-29 10:51:08 <btcdrak> wumpus, that's true. so it's going that way anyway (to split into separate repos).
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 700 2014-09-29 10:53:02 <wumpus> well the wallet I'd like to split off and forget about, can't do the same for the translations right now - they're necessary for building the project
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 737 2014-09-29 12:02:17 <wumpus> @coryfields another file missing from the tarball :/ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4997
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 845 2014-09-29 14:12:14 <jgarzik> wumpus, what is a criteria for releasing 1.0, do you think?
 846 2014-09-29 14:12:22 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, ^
 847 2014-09-29 14:12:35 <wumpus> total world domination
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 850 2014-09-29 14:13:17 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: I looked at an old forum post where I sketched out what I thought needed to be in a 1.0
 851 2014-09-29 14:13:40 <wumpus> headers-first!
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 853 2014-09-29 14:13:50 <gavinandresen> I think the only thing we’re missing is a multisig auto-backup wallet.  So if we split out the wallet functionality.....
 854 2014-09-29 14:13:53 <wumpus> *not a bit obsessed with that*
 855 2014-09-29 14:15:01 <gavinandresen> wumpus: just upgraded to osx 10.9.5, and getting the same ‘signature not valid’ problem others are reporting.  I’ll re-sign using 10.9.5, I bet 10.9.4 wasn’t good enough for latest gatekeeper changes……
 856 2014-09-29 14:15:01 <wumpus> right, having any wallet requirements for 1.0 makes no sense anymore
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 858 2014-09-29 14:15:45 <michagogo> I'd imagine one criterion would be some kind of full, formal evaluation, auditing, and quadruple-checking of every bit of code
 859 2014-09-29 14:16:26 <wumpus> michagogo: people are doing that all the time
 860 2014-09-29 14:16:51 <wumpus> gavinandresen: ugh at the mess that is macosx
 861 2014-09-29 14:17:01 <michagogo> ;;list
 862 2014-09-29 14:17:01 <gribble> Admin, Alias, Anonymous, AutoMode, BadWords, BitcoinData, Channel, ChannelLogger, ChannelStats, Conditional, Config, Debug, Dict, Dunno, Factoids, Filter, Format, GPG, Games, Gatekeeper, Google, Herald, Internet, Later, Market, Math, MessageParser, Misc, Network, OTCOrderBook, Owner, Plugin, RSS, RatingSystem, Reply, Scheduler, Seen, Services, Status, String, Time, Topic, URL, Unix, User, (1 more message)
 863 2014-09-29 14:17:13 <michagogo> ;;list bitcoindata
 864 2014-09-29 14:17:13 <gribble> bcstats, blockdiff, blocks, bounty, diff, diffchange, estimate, genprob, genrate, gentime, halfreward, hextarget, interval, nethash, nextretarget, prevdiff, prevdiffchange, tblb, timetonext, totalbc, and tslb
 865 2014-09-29 14:17:17 <gavinandresen> wumpus: yup.  Still not right, I’m now getting:  dist/Bitcoin-Qt.app: unsealed contents present in the root directory of an embedded framework
 866 2014-09-29 14:17:21 <wumpus> michagogo: please don't botspam here
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 868 2014-09-29 14:17:43 <gavinandresen> coryfields : ping?  can you help with an OSX signing issue?
 869 2014-09-29 14:17:53 <michagogo> Saying "this is complete/ready and out of beta" is really a huge deal for a piece of software that controls $,,(calc [totalbc]*[tlast])
 870 2014-09-29 14:17:54 <gribble> 5073446137.5
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 872 2014-09-29 14:18:26 <wumpus> michagogo: that's a good argument to never call it 1.0
 873 2014-09-29 14:18:38 <michagogo> wumpus: yes
 874 2014-09-29 14:18:40 <michagogo> I agre
 875 2014-09-29 14:18:44 <michagogo> Agree*
 876 2014-09-29 14:19:01 <wumpus> I mean there are two opinions here: either arbitrarily label a release 1.0 when it has a certain feature, or *it should be perfect*... the second will never happen
 877 2014-09-29 14:19:19 <michagogo> Right, that's true
 878 2014-09-29 14:19:25 <wumpus> there's always 2.0, and 3.0
 879 2014-09-29 14:19:26 <wumpus> :P
 880 2014-09-29 14:19:34 <kinlo> or just label a version 1.0 that is good enough for the public to stimulate confidence
 881 2014-09-29 14:19:44 <kinlo> being perfect is impossible, so don't try to be it
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 883 2014-09-29 14:19:58 <gavinandresen> 1.0, to me, means “this is a stable release that we intend to patch/support/upgrade for a while.”
 884 2014-09-29 14:20:19 <michagogo> And then, what happens if something goes wrong
 885 2014-09-29 14:20:20 <wumpus> hah
 886 2014-09-29 14:20:27 <michagogo> Who gets blamed?
 887 2014-09-29 14:20:35 <michagogo> And who gets sued?
 888 2014-09-29 14:20:39 <wumpus> michagogo: you :D
 889 2014-09-29 14:20:45 <kinlo> gavinandresen: that means backporting pathes, as bitcoin might require urgent upgrades on the entire network, but that can be done with any version
 890 2014-09-29 14:20:54 <michagogo> What kind of liability could there be, around the world?
 891 2014-09-29 14:20:56 <wumpus> michagogo: you should read the license
 892 2014-09-29 14:20:59 <michagogo> Eep!
 893 2014-09-29 14:21:02 * michagogo hides
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 895 2014-09-29 14:21:52 <wumpus> THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
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 897 2014-09-29 14:22:45 <michagogo> It's kinda crazy to think that that clause is on a $5b piece of software, actually
 898 2014-09-29 14:22:48 <wumpus> kinlo: we already backport important patches, at least to the last stable release
 899 2014-09-29 14:23:24 <kinlo> wumpus: I know, luke does
 900 2014-09-29 14:23:54 <michagogo> Eh?
 901 2014-09-29 14:24:15 <michagogo> kinlo: I think he means e.g. 0.9.3
 902 2014-09-29 14:24:20 <wumpus> yes
 903 2014-09-29 14:24:42 <kinlo> michagogo: you know luke was backporting important fixes too?
 904 2014-09-29 14:25:01 <kinlo> dunno if he's still doing so but there were ancient versions he was still "maintaining"
 905 2014-09-29 14:25:02 <wumpus> kinlo: yes, he does
 906 2014-09-29 14:25:29 <michagogo> kinlo: I don't think I knew that, actually
 907 2014-09-29 14:25:56 <wumpus> michagogo: anyhow that's why companies such as Redhat exist, offering commercial support for free software solutions
 908 2014-09-29 14:26:15 <michagogo> Right, good point
 909 2014-09-29 14:26:24 <wumpus> michagogo: the software itself comes without warranty, but that doesn't mean you can't provide it as an extra paid service
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 916 2014-09-29 14:33:07 <gavinandresen> coryfields: I think I’ve figured it out, framework version symbolic links are being broken with the copy to dist/ during macdeploy, and that is making codesign unhappy.
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 924 2014-09-29 14:45:30 <gavinandresen> wumpus: 251938650bd79681dd93dcce346589aa5d1217d012a6f8e749165ef2149662d2  bitcoin-0.9.3-macosx.dmg uploaded
 925 2014-09-29 14:45:49 <gavinandresen> wumpus: … to https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/bin/0.9.3/
 926 2014-09-29 14:46:49 <gavinandresen> wumpus: it is 5MB smaller because the framework code isn’t duplicated in it
 927 2014-09-29 14:46:51 <wumpus> gavinandresen: ok, I'll update SHA256SUMS.asc and upload them
 928 2014-09-29 14:47:29 <gavinandresen> wumpus: RE shasums:  to avoid confusion I always told gpg to use SHA256 when creating SHA256SUMS
 929 2014-09-29 14:48:09 <gavinandresen> (default is for gpg to use SHA1 to create the signing hash, if I recall)
 930 2014-09-29 14:48:27 <wumpus> gavinandresen: I've configured my gpg to use SHA512 at some point
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 932 2014-09-29 14:48:55 <gavinandresen> wumpus: I think you can override on the command line.  -a sha256 or something.....
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 936 2014-09-29 14:51:24 <wumpus> gpg --digest-algo sha256 --clearsign SHA256SUMS seems to work
 937 2014-09-29 14:52:35 <wumpus> -a doesn't work, and gpg is really fussy about the order of arguments
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 941 2014-09-29 14:57:32 <gavinandresen> wumpus: sorry, should have dug out my notes. And should have updated doc/release_process.md long ago.
 942 2014-09-29 15:00:12 <wumpus> no problem - I'll update it so that it matches what we're actually doing
 943 2014-09-29 15:00:42 <rdponticelli> Isn't -a to enable the use of the agent in gpg?
 944 2014-09-29 15:01:14 <wumpus> ok, new dmg and sha256sums are in place
 945 2014-09-29 15:01:55 <wumpus> rdponticelli: could be, although using the agent seems to be the default
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 948 2014-09-29 15:03:43 <rdponticelli> No, it's for armor
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 960 2014-09-29 15:10:14 <michagogo> Yeah, -a for ASCII/armor
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1001 2014-09-29 16:08:09 <wadabada> I want to delete/remove addresses from wallet.dat file (bitcoind), pywallet can do it but not from command line. Any way to do this?
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1045 2014-09-29 16:45:27 <BlueMatt> wumpus: probably, it was built in one vm and run on another, but I dont think it should be so strange (both were up-to-date arch)
1046 2014-09-29 16:45:42 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I'll try to reproduce when I get the motherboard back on rma
1047 2014-09-29 16:45:48 <BlueMatt> wumpus: until then, dont worry about it
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1088 2014-09-29 17:17:00 <sipa> coryfields: present?
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1100 2014-09-29 17:26:30 <cfields> ugh, sorry if i've been disconnecting/connecting like crazy, shell went down and i've been trying to get my ircd back up
1101 2014-09-29 17:27:35 <sipa> i was wondering how i can run bitcoind locally with the stl vector debugging enabled
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1104 2014-09-29 17:28:09 <sipa> but i think i found what broke the build without it
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1106 2014-09-29 17:28:22 <cfields> sipa: make depends with DEBUG=1
1107 2014-09-29 17:28:29 <sipa> i mean without depends
1108 2014-09-29 17:28:36 <cfields> ugh, something's broken? I'm just catching up
1109 2014-09-29 17:28:41 <sipa> i broke it
1110 2014-09-29 17:29:09 <cfields> sipa: you have to have depends built with it in order to use it
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1116 2014-09-29 17:30:06 <sipa> cfields: why?
1117 2014-09-29 17:30:29 <sipa> seems strange that depends could do something that i can't do myself...
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1120 2014-09-29 17:31:16 <cfields> sipa: sorry... i meant that your dependencies (boost) must be built with the option set as well
1121 2014-09-29 17:31:31 <sipa> ah, hmm
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1123 2014-09-29 17:31:40 <cfields> it changes symbols around
1124 2014-09-29 17:31:47 <cfields> so, easiest way is to just use ours
1125 2014-09-29 17:31:51 <sipa> right
1126 2014-09-29 17:31:59 <cfields> sec for link
1127 2014-09-29 17:32:29 <cfields> sipa: it'd probably be ok except that boost is so header-heavy and template-heavy
1128 2014-09-29 17:32:48 <cfields> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/debug_mode_design.html#debug_mode.design.methods.coexistence
1129 2014-09-29 17:32:53 <sipa> if it's only headers, there would be no dependency to rebuild :)
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1131 2014-09-29 17:33:13 <sipa> but the combination of templates and non-header objects is probably the cause
1132 2014-09-29 17:33:37 <gavinandresen> cfields: when you’re done with sipa, I need your brain, too
1133 2014-09-29 17:33:45 * sipa releases cfields
1134 2014-09-29 17:35:28 <gavinandresen> cfields: I’ve got two issues: fixing macdeploy so codesign on osx 10.9.5 is happy.  And configure+brew+qt5 .....
1135 2014-09-29 17:36:08 <sipa> cfields: actually, that's pretty awesome about the depends system then, that we can just selectively enable that feature for some tests
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1137 2014-09-29 17:37:11 <cfields> gavinandresen: yea, i'm trying to get caught up on what's going on
1138 2014-09-29 17:37:47 <cfields> gavinandresen: is there a dmg now that seems to be working, and it's just a matter of getting a proper fix checked in? Or still trying to get something that actually works
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1140 2014-09-29 17:38:06 <gavinandresen> cfields: working dmg has been uploaded, so this is about working-in-the-future
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1142 2014-09-29 17:38:21 <cfields> ok
1143 2014-09-29 17:38:56 <gavinandresen> so:  running macdeployqtplus inside my just-built tree, it is producing Qt frameworks with a weird structure
1144 2014-09-29 17:39:05 <cfields> gavinandresen: e3d8d586 should've fixed the gatekeeper stuff wrt symlinks. I realize that didn't make it into 0.9.3 though. Have you verified that it's not enough?
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1146 2014-09-29 17:39:31 <gavinandresen> cfields: yes.  If I run -verbose=3, I see:
1147 2014-09-29 17:39:38 <gavinandresen> Linked: dist/Bitcoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtWidgets.framework/QtWidgets -> Versions/5/QtWidgets
1148 2014-09-29 17:39:39 <gavinandresen> Linked: dist/Bitcoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtWidgets.framework/Contents -> Versions/5/Contents
1149 2014-09-29 17:39:55 <gavinandresen> … which I don’t understand.  It should be linking Versions/Current to Versions/5/
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1152 2014-09-29 17:43:12 <cfields> gavinandresen: sec, let me get a build up
1153 2014-09-29 17:43:55 <gavinandresen> cfields: ok. I created a gist showing what doesn’t work, and what did:   https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/85f475671203c0eb641c
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1161 2014-09-29 17:48:40 <cfields> gavinandresen: ok, that seems to line up with the structure that i had intended, because individual versions must be signed now rather than the top-level...
1162 2014-09-29 17:48:48 <cfields> so what's the part that "doesn't work"? It refuses to sign?
1163 2014-09-29 17:49:25 <gavinandresen> cfields: yes, codesign complains that there is extra stuff in the framework
1164 2014-09-29 17:49:53 gcefbr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1165 2014-09-29 17:50:09 <gavinandresen> dist/Bitcoin-Qt.app: the main executable or Info.plist must be a regular file (no symlinks, etc.)
1166 2014-09-29 17:50:09 <gavinandresen> In subcomponent: /Users/gavin/src/bitcoin/dist/Bitcoin-Qt.app/Contents/Frameworks/QtCore.framework
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1170 2014-09-29 17:52:12 <cfields> mm, trying to reproduce
1171 2014-09-29 17:52:37 <cfields> i tried to follow the new recommended layout for gatekeeper, sounds like i missed something obvious
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1178 2014-09-29 17:56:02 <gavinandresen> cfields: you running 10.9.5 ?  10.9.4 was happy to sign the old layout
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1180 2014-09-29 17:57:44 <cfields> gavinandresen: yea. But I'm bothered because I thought I switched us to the futureproof(tm) layout
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1184 2014-09-29 17:59:47 <gavinandresen> cfields: if you’re fixing macdeployqtplus… you should include https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/commit/84eb04330cb8c29bc09ea2cca7c7bb5f3713e1d4
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1187 2014-09-29 18:00:16 <gavinandresen> cfields: that’s not needed for sign-the-first-time, but is needed by the build-and-then-sign-later process
1188 2014-09-29 18:01:44 <cfields> gavinandresen: ok, thanks
1189 2014-09-29 18:02:28 <cfields> gavinandresen: are you sure that issue made it into the final image, though? It's an iso which uses an index to avoid file copying rather than symlinking, because it's not compat with the standard
1190 2014-09-29 18:02:50 <cfields> so if you extract files from the dmg, they'll look duped. but they're really just pointing to the same file in the image
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1192 2014-09-29 18:04:07 <cfields> not saying that it's not the right fix, only that the contents can be a bit deceiving if you c/p them out of the dmg
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1194 2014-09-29 18:05:11 <lechuga_> is relaying partially signed transactions crazy talk?
1195 2014-09-29 18:05:40 <lechuga_> or could it maybe make sense and be accomodated if there were clever enough DoS prevention mechanisms in place
1196 2014-09-29 18:07:03 <gavinandresen> lechuga_: crazy talk
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1198 2014-09-29 18:07:19 <lechuga_> :)
1199 2014-09-29 18:08:30 <gavinandresen> cfields: I spent way too much time banging my head against the wall— I’d fix the structure of Bitcoin-Qt.app, then run macdeployqtplus to do the codesign + create fancy dmg, and end up with codesigning failing because macdeployqtplus was breaking the symlinks when it copied to dist/Bitcoin-Qt.app
1200 2014-09-29 18:08:49 ahbritto_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1201 2014-09-29 18:09:03 <gavinandresen> cfields: …. getting a Bitcoin-Qt.app out of the .dmg with symlinks intact might be an issue, too.
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1203 2014-09-29 18:09:30 <gavinandresen> (that’s just not the issue I was fixing)
1204 2014-09-29 18:09:56 <cfields> gavinandresen: ok, understood
1205 2014-09-29 18:10:12 <gavinandresen> lechuga_: crazy talk, because what if the person who needs to sign next doesn’t happen to be online when the partially signed transaction is relayed?
1206 2014-09-29 18:10:33 <gavinandresen> lechuga_: you really need a store-and-forward system to gather signatures.
1207 2014-09-29 18:11:25 <gavinandresen> And no, the blockchain is NOT a store-and-forward system. Even though people constantly seem to want to make it one......
1208 2014-09-29 18:12:05 <lechuga_> it just seems like all multisig wallet solutions need this behavior and the only way to do achieve it atm seems to be to rely on a central server
1209 2014-09-29 18:12:06 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1210 2014-09-29 18:12:14 <lechuga_> s/do//
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1213 2014-09-29 18:18:01 <lechuga_> isnt the mempool store-and-forward
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1215 2014-09-29 18:18:58 <cfields> grabbing 10.9.5 now
1216 2014-09-29 18:19:08 <cfields> sipa: meantime: is your issue worked out?
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1220 2014-09-29 18:22:19 <cfields> nm, i see it
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1225 2014-09-29 18:28:06 <jgarzik> lechuga_, check out the "EphemeralCoin" design.  I hope to put that idea to code eventually
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1230 2014-09-29 18:28:45 <cfields> gavinandresen: mind describing your brew+qt problem so i can be looking into that too?
1231 2014-09-29 18:28:55 <jgarzik> lechuga_, Basic idea:  chain, that expires entries after 2 weeks (or sooner, if requested).  You obtain the ability to post to the chain by creating a transaction with a locktime 400 years in the future
1232 2014-09-29 18:29:12 <jgarzik> as long as that coin remains unspent, you can use up to X associated resources posting to the chain
1233 2014-09-29 18:29:30 <jgarzik> if the coin is spent, or your "credit" is used up, no more posting
1234 2014-09-29 18:29:57 <jgarzik> lechuga_, that handles the offline case, because entries persist for a short period
1235 2014-09-29 18:30:36 <lechuga_> jgarzik: awesome
1236 2014-09-29 18:32:07 cfields has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1237 2014-09-29 18:32:56 <lechuga_> all i can find googling for you and ephemeralcoin is a wizards log
1238 2014-09-29 18:33:00 <lechuga_> that about as expected?
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1243 2014-09-29 18:35:11 <jgarzik> lechuga_, yes
1244 2014-09-29 18:35:38 <jgarzik> lechuga_, I talk about it in the hopes that the idea will be stolen, and implemented with zero effort from me ;p
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1248 2014-09-29 18:40:43 <lechuga_> haha good luck with that
1249 2014-09-29 18:42:17 <gavinandresen> cfields: (sorry, little meeting) :  Sure.  I done did: brew uninstall qt; brew install qt5    .  Then re-ran autogen.sh and configure, and configure doesn’t automatically find qt5
1250 2014-09-29 18:43:06 <gavinandresen> cfields: if I add /usr/local/opt/qt5/bin to PATH and /usr/local/opt/qt5/lib/pkgconfig to PKG_CONFIG_PATH then configure gets happy.
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1253 2014-09-29 18:45:05 <cfields> gavinandresen: ok, looking
1254 2014-09-29 18:45:33 justanotheruser has joined
1255 2014-09-29 18:45:47 <cfields> gavinandresen: side-note, just rebooted into 10.9.5, a few of my other progs went crazy, errors for busted signatures
1256 2014-09-29 18:45:54 <cfields> so we're not alone :)
1257 2014-09-29 18:46:08 <gavinandresen> cfields: misery loves company
1258 2014-09-29 18:46:24 hashtag has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1259 2014-09-29 18:46:31 <cfields> odd thing to change for a patch-level update
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1262 2014-09-29 18:48:31 <gavinandresen> cfields: there’s probably an exploit they’re not telling us about.
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1264 2014-09-29 18:49:20 <cfields> yea, that'd make sense
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1268 2014-09-29 18:53:50 <goodbtc> I have constant crashes of bitcoin core 0.9.3 on windows xp sp3 32 bit
1269 2014-09-29 18:54:35 <goodbtc> I use it with -nowallet option
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1273 2014-09-29 18:55:24 <lechuga_> does eventvwr say anything interesting
1274 2014-09-29 18:55:27 <lechuga_> or debug.log
1275 2014-09-29 18:55:55 <goodbtc> tell me where to look, I have now the crash error on the screen
1276 2014-09-29 18:56:03 <lechuga_> url
1277 2014-09-29 18:57:46 <goodbtc> msvcrt.dll 0x000233oc
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1279 2014-09-29 18:58:02 <goodbtc> *msvcrt.dll 0x0002330c
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1281 2014-09-29 19:00:08 <goodbtc> http://pastebin.com/mqc7bUwB + http://i.imgur.com/cC25Bxe.png
1282 2014-09-29 19:00:52 <goodbtc> these I saved when I was using the beta version of 0.9.3
1283 2014-09-29 19:01:23 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1284 2014-09-29 19:01:26 <goodbtc> the official version have the same problem
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1293 2014-09-29 19:21:29 <goodbtc> best idea is to go back to 0.9.2, never had problems with that
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1297 2014-09-29 19:26:54 <cfields> gavinandresen: when you get a chance, could you please try: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1yRgdyAC
1298 2014-09-29 19:27:11 <cfields> it needs some sanitizing, but it should work for you
1299 2014-09-29 19:27:44 <cfields> after patching, you'll need to ./autogen.sh and ./configure
1300 2014-09-29 19:27:54 <gavinandresen> cfields: what’s the magic git or patch command to apply that to my tree?
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1302 2014-09-29 19:28:17 <cfields> sec
1303 2014-09-29 19:31:09 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1304 2014-09-29 19:31:22 <cfields> gavinandresen: "curl http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=PF4Xjhbj | git am"
1305 2014-09-29 19:32:03 <gavinandresen> cfields: … Patch does not have a valid e-mail address.
1306 2014-09-29 19:32:18 <gavinandresen> must be Monday.
1307 2014-09-29 19:32:28 <cfields> heh, sigh
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1309 2014-09-29 19:32:52 <gavinandresen> git apply doesn’t like it, either.  (never took the time to figure out why there is an apply and an am….)
1310 2014-09-29 19:33:21 <gavinandresen> (and why ‘am’ ?  am what?  am instead of pm?  am trying to be obscure?)
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1312 2014-09-29 19:33:55 <cfields> heh, i'm pretty sure they're references to 10yr old kernel dev's patch-queue workflow scripts
1313 2014-09-29 19:34:02 <cfields> so yes, as obscure as possible i suppose :)
1314 2014-09-29 19:34:12 <gavinandresen> mmm. yeah, must be designed by a 10yr old.
1315 2014-09-29 19:34:38 <gavinandresen> (jgarzik will probably pipe up and admit it is all his fault)
1316 2014-09-29 19:35:24 <cfields> mm, no clue what that one's about. applies fine on my osx and linux box
1317 2014-09-29 19:35:29 <cfields> sec, pushing to a git branch
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1319 2014-09-29 19:37:55 <cfields> gavinandresen: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/tree/osxqt5
1320 2014-09-29 19:38:23 <cfields> pull that however you want. I'm afraid if I give you another c/p to try today, something will explode :)
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1328 2014-09-29 19:41:28 <cfields> reminder though, ^^ isn't merge-worthy, need to verify that it works before i clean it up
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1330 2014-09-29 19:41:50 <gavinandresen> cfields: after re-running autogen.sh, works.
1331 2014-09-29 19:42:09 <cfields> great, thanks
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1333 2014-09-29 19:43:17 <cfields> i remember now, there was no qt5 in homebrew yet when we added qt5 support. I tested against the official binaries, and macports i think. Now that there's one in homebrew, it's bottle-only because it conflicts with qt4. So we have to seek it out.
1334 2014-09-29 19:43:36 <cfields> will clean up and PR. thanks for testing.
1335 2014-09-29 19:43:40 <cfields> now back to packaging
1336 2014-09-29 19:44:22 <Happzz> after decoding a raw tx, what's the scriptPubKey and redeemScript ?
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1339 2014-09-29 19:46:18 <gavinandresen> Happzz: good info on transactions here: https://github.com/aantonop/bitcoinbook/blob/develop/ch05.asciidoc
1340 2014-09-29 19:46:54 <Happzz> thanks.
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1362 2014-09-29 20:15:08 <chichov> hm, how come CBasicKeyStore store = CBasicKeyStore() doesn't work?
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1364 2014-09-29 20:16:07 <chichov> it mentions " error: use of deleted function "
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1373 2014-09-29 20:33:06 <cfields> chichov: that usually means someone deleted the copy ctor and operator=() on purpose
1374 2014-09-29 20:33:18 <cfields> just use CBasicKeyStore store;
1375 2014-09-29 20:33:40 <lechuga_> hmm
1376 2014-09-29 20:33:51 <chichov> odd that it cannot be explicitly initialized like that
1377 2014-09-29 20:34:00 <lechuga_> inhereiting from boost::noncopyable is probably a better way of handling that
1378 2014-09-29 20:34:12 <cfields> chichov: you're not initializing. you're creating two objects then setting one to the other
1379 2014-09-29 20:34:12 <chichov> cfields: your suggestion naturally works, but how do I check if it's empty?
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1381 2014-09-29 20:34:52 <lechuga_> inheriting*
1382 2014-09-29 20:34:52 <cfields> chichov: hmm?
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1384 2014-09-29 20:35:19 <chichov> cfields: I want to check if the keystore does not have any elements in it
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1424 2014-09-29 21:18:18 <sipa> chichov: add an IsEmpty() method to it?
1425 2014-09-29 21:18:44 <chichov> sipa: I hoped there would be a way without manipulating the code itself, but alright
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1427 2014-09-29 21:19:08 <chichov> sipa: any ideas how I can serialize the keystore with some protection? e.g. password encryption?
1428 2014-09-29 21:19:26 <sipa> chichov: that's called a wallet :)
1429 2014-09-29 21:19:53 <sipa> keystore does not have its own serialization; it is an abstract structure
1430 2014-09-29 21:20:17 <chichov> sipa: well yes... and where are the serialization methods?
1431 2014-09-29 21:20:40 <sipa> the individual data structures are serialized
1432 2014-09-29 21:20:46 <sipa> the storage is done through cwalletdb
1433 2014-09-29 21:21:01 <sipa> you don't serialize the whole wallet at once, jist uodated parts
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1435 2014-09-29 21:23:09 <sipa> because we don't just sotre keys in a wallet
1436 2014-09-29 21:23:15 <sipa> but also metadata
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1496 2014-09-29 22:42:22 <Luke-Jr> is there really no cidr C library? :/
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1524 2014-09-29 23:15:21 <lechuga_> Luke-Jr: https://llvm.org/svn/llvm-project/test-suite/trunk/MultiSource/Benchmarks/MiBench/network-patricia/patricia.c
1525 2014-09-29 23:15:26 akstunt600 has joined
1526 2014-09-29 23:15:36 <lechuga_> (havent used, only found via google)
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1528 2014-09-29 23:16:49 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: lots of code, sure, but no library..
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1531 2014-09-29 23:17:13 <lechuga_> yeah im kind of surprised nothing ready to go from boost
1532 2014-09-29 23:17:21 <lechuga_> altho u did specicially request c
1533 2014-09-29 23:17:30 <lechuga_> specifically*
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