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  36 2014-10-04 01:09:46 <deephouse_> Can someone help me in the development of an android or iOS wallet? Payment can be made in Bitcoins. See more details and contact me at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=809191
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 251 2014-10-04 06:50:08 <wumpus> Gnosis: you can use exceptions, but only for things that are in principle fatal (except in the RPC code, where they're somewhat more common)
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 254 2014-10-04 06:54:47 <wumpus> it makes sense to copy the behavior of the part of the code you're changing
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 605 2014-10-04 15:32:03 <dabura667> What's the console command for Bitcoin Core to rebuild the blockchain?
 606 2014-10-04 15:32:52 <Luke-Jr> launch it with -reindex
 607 2014-10-04 15:35:40 <dabura667> Thanks
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 859 2014-10-04 20:21:54 <b-itcoinssg> does anyone know how much space bitcoin requires for running on the testnet?
 860 2014-10-04 20:22:23 <b-itcoinssg> my laptop has about 2gs free
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 873 2014-10-04 20:34:35 <poutine> b-itcoinssg, that is not enough
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 878 2014-10-04 20:36:02 <poutine> I'm sorry, I am mistaken
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 882 2014-10-04 20:36:58 <b-itcoinssg> ok, do you know how much would be enough?
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 887 2014-10-04 20:37:44 <poutine> my directory is only 1.7 GB, but I'm not sure if I messed up and put a reindex=1 somewhere before that happened
 888 2014-10-04 20:37:57 <poutine> maybe one of the other people in here could confirm, not really a dev question also
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 897 2014-10-04 20:45:24 <b-itcoinssg> where should I have asked this question?
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 925 2014-10-04 21:20:46 <neap> is it possible to compress the blockchain at some point in future time, or is it inivitable becoming bigger and bigger?
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 928 2014-10-04 21:24:04 <justanotheruser> neap: you can compress the blockchain into a proof of the UTXO
 929 2014-10-04 21:25:04 <justanotheruser> you also can prune it, but you still need archive nodes in order to allow new users to have a utxo proof
 930 2014-10-04 21:25:10 <Luke-Jr> neap: both
 931 2014-10-04 21:25:25 <justanotheruser> s/proof of the UTXO/ZKP of utxo
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 937 2014-10-04 21:30:51 <neap> ok, but beside this Merkle tree solution, that needs archive nodes, there is no other way yet?
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 940 2014-10-04 21:33:47 <Luke-Jr> neap: by definition, no other way is possible.. if every node is to verify the history of every bitcoin, every node needs to download the history of every bitcoin
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 942 2014-10-04 21:37:29 <justanotheruser> I remember greg discussing some UTXO merkle tree solution. IIRC, there would basically be a ZKP that the merkle root is valid and everyone would be able to just verify transactions based on the utxo merkle tree.
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 944 2014-10-04 21:41:07 <neap> Luke-Jr: ok thx, just wanted to make sure i have not overseen some simple thought
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 953 2014-10-04 21:47:48 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: well, that's possible, but AFAIK unproven and untried so far
 954 2014-10-04 21:48:31 <justanotheruser> It would be nice for everyone to be able to have full node security in SPV clients though
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 956 2014-10-04 21:51:07 <justanotheruser> probably untried since construction of the proofs is computationally expensive
 957 2014-10-04 21:51:29 <justanotheruser> Are GPUs useful at all for construction of ZKPs?
 958 2014-10-04 21:51:34 <Luke-Jr> well, there's code to write first
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 997 2014-10-04 22:47:57 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: replacing security with ZKP systems is not yet remotely pratical. It's just enough to say now that I'm confident that it will be someday.
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1000 2014-10-04 22:50:02 <gmaxwell> The state of the art high performance zkp for general computation, which has trusted setup and only 80 bit security, executes its machine code  in the prover (which is a simple load store arch which is about half the instruction density of x86) at ~10Hz.  So any attempt is going to either need massive advances in performance or a faster specialized verision.
1001 2014-10-04 22:50:05 <andytoshi> there is a recent "how to aggregate literally any signatures of any type" paper out using obfuscation http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/745 :)
1002 2014-10-04 22:50:12 <andytoshi> (sorry, this belongs in -wizards)
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1004 2014-10-04 22:50:48 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: so even if you imagine a bunch of gpu magic isn't not really feasable yet.
1005 2014-10-04 22:50:57 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: wowee.
1006 2014-10-04 22:51:03 <justanotheruser> didn't you make an sha256 proof?
1007 2014-10-04 22:51:17 <Luke-Jr> one sha256 is nothing compared to the blockchain :P
1008 2014-10-04 22:51:26 <justanotheruser> I know, I'm just wondering how long that took
1009 2014-10-04 22:51:56 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: I have a toy system but it's not succinct (the proofs are quadratic size, e.g. a couple gigs), so it's not really compariable.
1010 2014-10-04 22:52:27 <justanotheruser> you designed it?
1011 2014-10-04 22:53:07 <gmaxwell> Yes. I invented (maybe a strong word, it borrowes heavily from published approaches) a very simple scheme as a teaching tool.
1012 2014-10-04 22:53:43 <justanotheruser> That is interesting to me. Do you have documentation explaining the teaching tool?
1013 2014-10-04 22:53:46 <andytoshi> justanotheruser: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt  <-- worth reading, it takes some of the magic out of it
1014 2014-10-04 22:53:51 * Luke-Jr wonders where gmaxwell found time for that XD
1015 2014-10-04 22:53:53 <gmaxwell> it works but the proof for even a sha256 operation is very big (on the order of 2gb depending on what the security parameters I'm using are)
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1017 2014-10-04 22:54:13 <justanotheruser> andytoshi: read it once. Probably need to read it a few more times before I can understand it :P
1018 2014-10-04 22:54:15 <andytoshi> (not all of the magic, the succinctness is still magic)
1019 2014-10-04 22:54:22 <gmaxwell> yea, my goal was to just come up with something a regular tech person could read and say "okay, I see how a proof of execution in zero knoweldge is possible at all"
1020 2014-10-04 22:55:13 <gmaxwell> obviously I'd need to do a lot more to achieve the goal of making it clear; which is why I've not published it except to share the link with -wizards people.
1021 2014-10-04 22:55:52 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: is your program constructing the ZKP online?
1022 2014-10-04 22:56:20 <justanotheruser> Are snarks the first Succinct ZKPs?
1023 2014-10-04 22:57:02 <gmaxwell> nah, I kinda screwed it up going down a lark that turned out to not work out. I thought I could turn the quadratic complexity to linear by making a simple homorphic commitment with secp256k1 but my commitment scheme was flawed.
1024 2014-10-04 22:59:14 <justanotheruser> quadratic with what? The number of operations?
1025 2014-10-04 22:59:14 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: sort of a circular question, SNARK meing succinct non-interactive argument of knoweldge.
1026 2014-10-04 22:59:14 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: number of AND gates in a boolean circuit that runs the program in question.
1027 2014-10-04 22:59:14 <andytoshi> justanotheruser: iirc the "snarks for C" paper was the first concrete realization of a succinct nizk for general computations
1028 2014-10-04 22:59:14 <andytoshi> justanotheruser: but the existence of such things has been known for a long time, and there are succinct nizks for some specefic computations
1029 2014-10-04 23:00:10 <gmaxwell> or more general the GGPR12 work (and the pinnochio and libsnarks packages that implement it (and optimized papers) is the first (nearly)-pratical implementation. Theoretical approaches have been discussed for a number of years before, but the proving work was too complex to do (like, on all the computers in the world)
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1031 2014-10-04 23:02:07 <gmaxwell> and yea, as andy says... for narrower applications things have existed for some time.  RSA accumulators and BLS aggregate signatures can be though of as succinct proof systems for a very narrow domain.
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1033 2014-10-04 23:02:07 <gmaxwell> should probably move this to #bitcoin-wizards
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