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4 2014-10-06 00:09:04 <brisque> sipa: haven't managed yet. working out how I'm going to make a "bad" node to test these sorts of things more easily.
5 2014-10-06 00:09:51 MoALTz__ has joined
6 2014-10-06 00:10:25 <brisque> currently it's just a passthrough sybil "node" that pretends to be a real bitcoind, but just proxies requests.
7 2014-10-06 00:11:36 <sipa> brisque: hint: wait for a getheaders and never respond
8 2014-10-06 00:11:39 <brisque> hoping to add tampering features like mutating transactions, making invalid blocks, droping portions of requests, anything else I can think of.
9 2014-10-06 00:12:23 <brisque> sipa: I'm guessing that will get me dropped?
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11 2014-10-06 00:12:32 <sipa> brisque: unfortunately, no
12 2014-10-06 00:12:38 <brisque> ah.
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14 2014-10-06 00:16:05 <brisque> should be fun though, might even be able to make a "full" node that only has incoming connections and no outgoing ones
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16 2014-10-06 00:19:14 <gmaxwell> Annoyingly this approach totally breaks one of my defense ideas against 'stupid nodes'
17 2014-10-06 00:19:46 <gmaxwell> which was to just agressively profile behavior and consider nodes that don't get it right more suspect... but if you're passing through you can be indistinguishable except for whatever evil you do.
18 2014-10-06 00:19:58 <gmaxwell> oh well, better to realize this before writing a bunch of behavior profiling code.
19 2014-10-06 00:20:39 <gmaxwell> (note the idea there wasn't to really gain security against malicious behavior, but rather people trying to do something 'smart' and getting it wrong... but the fact that it would fail completely against a proxy makes it much less attractive)
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22 2014-10-06 00:24:36 <brisque> I had an idea of extending it to seeing who was lying on the network by feeding them random crap and seeing if they disconnect me properly.
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26 2014-10-06 00:25:51 <brisque> I'm not sure if connecting to other nodes and feeding them junk is really legal or not, so I thought better of it. seems to go past implied access.
27 2014-10-06 00:25:56 <gmaxwell> yea, one test I'd considered was "is this node verifing?" that worked by sending an invalid signature and seeing if it got banned. :)
28 2014-10-06 00:25:59 <xiando> gmaxwell: What is your opinion on blacklisted some outputs so people can't send to them?
29 2014-10-06 00:26:32 <gmaxwell> xiando: that doesn't make a lot of sense, and probably has no business in this channel.
30 2014-10-06 00:27:03 <xiando> gmaxwell: I see. If you "emerge bitcoind" to install it on Gentoo right now then you get a client which does that.
31 2014-10-06 00:27:33 <xiando> I am apparently a troll for saying that I believe all outputs should be equal.
32 2014-10-06 00:27:40 <gmaxwell> xiando: Ah. I thought you meant as a network rule. Nodes are free to run whatever policy they want.
33 2014-10-06 00:28:12 <brisque> xiando: huh, are you saying gentoo is packaging a version with their own rules in it?
34 2014-10-06 00:28:16 <gmaxwell> Probably not terribly useful, but it's also important that users of the network use it in a way which is unblockable; otherwise there is policy risk created for the whole system.
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36 2014-10-06 00:29:37 <sipa> it seems luke's patchset is enabled by default, which is probably not what people expect
37 2014-10-06 00:29:44 <gmaxwell> looks like its a use flag at least... but you probably want to consider a different source for your bitcoind. Distro versions are almost universally not very good.
38 2014-10-06 00:29:58 <brisque> sipa: hah, oh I'm not against that at all :)
39 2014-10-06 00:30:27 <xiando> luke-jr is the gentoo package maintainer, thus his patches are enabled by default where as I think they should be a use-flag _disabled_ by default. His opinion is that I am trolling.
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41 2014-10-06 00:30:53 <sipa> i have no problem with people enabling such a patch, or making it available, but people shouldn't end up running with such behaviour without being aware of it
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43 2014-10-06 00:31:06 <xiando> seeing
44 2014-10-06 00:31:06 <xiando> 2014-10-05 11:38:09 ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : ignoring transaction 289673d37df1a709829b3f3ea7b8549703f4251f26f5721863aacbccc47b95a9 with blacklisted output (SatoshiDice)
45 2014-10-06 00:31:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Gentoo is the exception there
46 2014-10-06 00:31:11 <xiando> in the log is how I learned
47 2014-10-06 00:31:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i think making it enabled by default is going too far
48 2014-10-06 00:31:57 <gmaxwell> I've encouraged luke in the past for his own patches to instead optimize more neutrally, e.g. deprioritizing reuse... doing other than that seems unmaintainable generally.
49 2014-10-06 00:31:57 <Luke-Jr> busy atm, can discuss later if needed (maybe without a troll present)
50 2014-10-06 00:32:32 <brisque> my nodes are a hell of a lot more picky than Luke's, and I agree that people should at least know their client isn't vanilla even if it is default.
51 2014-10-06 00:33:00 <xiando> Claiming everyone who disagrees with you is a troll is generally not helpfull, Luke-Jr. Try debating like an adult. It appers everyone else here is able to do that.
52 2014-10-06 00:33:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's sort of surprising if there is complex default policy that people wouldn't expect.
53 2014-10-06 00:34:39 psgs is now known as away!~psgs@2001:41d0:1:68a3::39|psgs
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57 2014-10-06 00:35:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: So I'd perhaps cite that as an example of distros doing something bad. Even if all agreed that it was good policy (I don't, primarly because it's not matching the behavior), it's somewhat surprising.
58 2014-10-06 00:36:21 belcher has quit (Quit: Leaving)
59 2014-10-06 00:36:25 <gmaxwell> But at the same time, no one has a monopoly on distributing a bitcoin implementation... and every implementation has different policy already.
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63 2014-10-06 00:43:41 <xiando> That is alright but multibit doesn't say it's bitcoin-qt and install when you ask to install that.
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65 2014-10-06 00:44:33 <xiando> Regardless, now I know how the rest of you feel about it. Thank you.
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76 2014-10-06 00:52:40 <Luke-Jr> xiando: you crossed the line into trolldom when you began spreading FUD ("breaks bitcoin") and making it into a political issue (bringing religion etc into it)
77 2014-10-06 00:53:46 nessence has joined
78 2014-10-06 00:53:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the latter (and code monoculture being a serious problem today for bitcoin) is similar to my thinking
79 2014-10-06 00:53:57 <gmaxwell> (please don't continue that debate here)
80 2014-10-06 00:54:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'd like us to get to the point where the policy is more pluggable... so that its runtime selectable.
81 2014-10-06 00:54:33 Belxjander has quit (Read error: No route to host)
82 2014-10-06 00:54:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: most of the patchset is that way, in fact.
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86 2014-10-06 00:57:54 <Luke-Jr> it just doesn't make sense to have clearly inferior defaults
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88 2014-10-06 00:58:19 <Luke-Jr> even if the only present method of improvement is non-ideal
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90 2014-10-06 00:59:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, anybody who can install gentoo should know to look for USE flags
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92 2014-10-06 01:00:04 <gmaxwell> The defaults should be something that everyone could be comfortable using. Anything that singles out particular parties by definition fails that test.
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94 2014-10-06 01:00:14 <phantomcircuit> shrug
95 2014-10-06 01:00:31 <phantomcircuit> call it payment to Luke-Jr for maintaining the ebuild file
96 2014-10-06 01:01:18 <phantomcircuit> hmm
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104 2014-10-06 01:11:38 <jtimon> we should have a polymorhpic class CPolicy
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106 2014-10-06 01:12:13 <gmaxwell> jtimon: well my point was that it shouldn't be compiled in.
107 2014-10-06 01:13:12 <gmaxwell> though gentoo users could handle recompiling to change policy, it doesn't work so well for anything else... and even there, ideally users shouldn't have to restart to change policy.
108 2014-10-06 01:14:26 * kuzetsa notices gentoo mention and perks slightly
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112 2014-10-06 01:17:45 <jtimon> users could write their own implementation of the class and run that instead without much maintainance overhead, and I think some policies (like replace-by-fees) should be compiled in the core as an alternative to the standard policy
113 2014-10-06 01:19:06 <kuzetsa> wait, the default use flags on gentoo's bitcoind / bitcoin-qt has address reuse and other punishment patchsets in it and enabled by default?
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115 2014-10-06 01:19:20 <kuzetsa> xiando: what's going on here O_O
116 2014-10-06 01:19:31 <kuzetsa> are you using the official gentoo build or luke's overlay?
117 2014-10-06 01:19:48 <xiando> luke maintains the official gentoo ebuild so there is no difference. That is the issue at hand.
118 2014-10-06 01:19:56 <kuzetsa> whoa
119 2014-10-06 01:21:03 <gmaxwell> There has yet to be a single linux distribution which has distributed an unpatched bitcoind AFAIK, it's one of the reasons we discourage people from using distro versions. (in addition to them often being very slow/sloppy about updates)
120 2014-10-06 01:21:04 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
121 2014-10-06 01:21:56 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: nod
122 2014-10-06 01:22:24 <gmaxwell> At least policy changes won't result in consensus failures.
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125 2014-10-06 01:23:20 <jtimon> not even this? https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/bitcoin-git/
126 2014-10-06 01:23:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: particular parties which are performing an active attack on the network, and only their active attack is being filtered by it
127 2014-10-06 01:24:24 <kuzetsa> Luke-Jr: your opinion about so-and-so having a business model which you define as "an attack" is not one which is widely shared
128 2014-10-06 01:24:24 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: address reuse deprioritisation is not implemented yet
129 2014-10-06 01:24:26 <gmaxwell> IIRC arch was previously patching it, not sure if it is anymore.
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132 2014-10-06 01:25:14 <phantomcircuit> hmm actually that isn't half bad
133 2014-10-06 01:25:18 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: his definition isn't related to the business model. I wouldn't use the attack characterization, but the same behavior actually does work as an attack when you think in terms of incentives.
134 2014-10-06 01:25:19 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: the only part that is seriously questioned among experts AFAIK is whether the attack is intended as an attack or neglegence
135 2014-10-06 01:25:49 <brisque> kuzetsa: do keep in mind that a very large portion of all transactions are made by Satoshi Dice.
136 2014-10-06 01:26:06 <sipa> still?
137 2014-10-06 01:26:10 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: interesting argument: bitcoin is protected against flooding (and thus optimizes for effiient resource usage) by bidding on fees... with the belief that attackers are rational or at least funding bounded.
138 2014-10-06 01:26:12 <sipa> i haven't heard from them in... years
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140 2014-10-06 01:26:36 <Luke-Jr> IMO, the intent is irrelevant when the objective fact of its behaviour is this clear; so I don't worry about trying to guess the intent of people besides myself whom I cannot know the intent of
141 2014-10-06 01:26:38 <brisque> sipa: last I looked it was a few GB, which is still a large portion regardless of them continuing or not
142 2014-10-06 01:27:10 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: so you can do a cute attack where you take economically irrational participants who are willing to transact at a guarenteed expected loss, and ask them to flood the network, using the loss to pay for the flood... they'll out compete all rational participants.
143 2014-10-06 01:27:16 <Luke-Jr> and people who disagree, can opt to not use my patchset - or use Gentoo's user patches feature to revert out that one part even
144 2014-10-06 01:27:20 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: "flooding" as defined here, is actually not well-defined (or any other kind of defined) -- please elaborate?
145 2014-10-06 01:27:43 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: the network has finite capacity. You use all of it and deny other users of the system access.
146 2014-10-06 01:27:50 <brisque> sipa: last number I have is 4.1GB for July this year.
147 2014-10-06 01:28:42 <kuzetsa> so then the definition is that a flood occurs whenever a usage model is a popular enough choice that bitcoin's capacity is pushed to the point of fees actually needing to be raised to compete?
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149 2014-10-06 01:28:49 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: or am I misunderstanding
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154 2014-10-06 01:29:23 <gmaxwell> (or, under different constraints, we have some limited startup-up capitol in blocks being less than maximum size allowing for lower cost participation, which gets consumed)
155 2014-10-06 01:29:32 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: you're ignoring the ratio factor
156 2014-10-06 01:29:51 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: legitimately popular uses bring more resources to the network to compensate for the higher use
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158 2014-10-06 01:30:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i can't wrap my head around CreateNewBlock_validity, or why it can work
159 2014-10-06 01:30:14 <Luke-Jr> "popular because the 'users' flood" does not
160 2014-10-06 01:30:17 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: well 'usage' is fuzzy. When irrational parties are funding your transactions the incentives are unhinged and its workable to use hundreds of transactions for each use and push everyone else out of the network.
161 2014-10-06 01:30:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: in what sense?
162 2014-10-06 01:30:24 <kuzetsa> luke: same as above with the term "flooding", please define "legitimately popular"
163 2014-10-06 01:30:42 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: actually having people who want to use it proportional to the load on the network
164 2014-10-06 01:30:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it validatesblocks before setting the prev, so they're all genesii blocks before, but not anymore afterwards?
165 2014-10-06 01:30:50 <kuzetsa> why is this popularity any less letitimate?
166 2014-10-06 01:31:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: anyway, i have a patch that breaks it, and i don't understand how it can have worked in the first place
167 2014-10-06 01:31:14 <sipa> so it's hard to fix :)
168 2014-10-06 01:31:21 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: it's not a question of popularity. It uses hundreds of transactions where other competing services use one or two, because it does messaging via the blockchain.
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170 2014-10-06 01:31:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's setting the prev of the *next* block, to the current one
171 2014-10-06 01:32:00 <gmaxwell> e.g. system capacity usage 1000s of times larger than you'd expect given its actual userbase.
172 2014-10-06 01:32:20 <sipa> ah!
173 2014-10-06 01:32:56 <kuzetsa> ooh, so this choice about defining the usage model as less legitimate is because it differs from other usage models which are lower load on the network?
174 2014-10-06 01:32:56 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: normally fees incentivize parties to not do that, but in that case it's unhinged.. which is interesting perhaps in terms of incentives.
175 2014-10-06 01:32:57 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: SatoshiDice could be implemented using 1000 times less resources; laziness isn't even an excuse because that implementation would be *easier*
176 2014-10-06 01:33:18 <sipa> i agree with all of this, but i don't think it matters
177 2014-10-06 01:33:22 <brisque> we have fools like blockchain.info to thank as well for enabling it.
178 2014-10-06 01:33:37 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: it's not about legitimacy, rather we expect the system incentives to already naturally encourage efficient use. But they don't work when you're using economically irrational parties with lots of funds.
179 2014-10-06 01:33:47 <sipa> blocking the transactions will be controversial, and enabling by default in an unexpected way will make people feel fooled
180 2014-10-06 01:33:47 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: in fact, I think there *are* actual gambling sites exactly like SD that don't flood the network
181 2014-10-06 01:33:56 <gmaxwell> so it slightly breaks the natural fix the system already has.
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183 2014-10-06 01:34:37 <gmaxwell> yea, I think this is orthorgonal with the gentoo version. I don't think it should have built in default policy different from the normal core releases unless its called something else.
184 2014-10-06 01:34:51 <kuzetsa> Luke-Jr: I thought SD's model was just 2-3 transactions per bet placed. is it actually worse than that? (1000 times worse?)
185 2014-10-06 01:34:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the fact that we have a default policy at all is a bad thing.
186 2014-10-06 01:35:02 <brisque> kuzetsa: two.
187 2014-10-06 01:35:12 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: even 1 per bet placed is bad
188 2014-10-06 01:35:12 <sipa> kuzetsa: it shouldn't be one transaction per bet; it should be one transaction per credit/payout
189 2014-10-06 01:35:15 <kuzetsa> brisque: then waht's the problem? that sounds pretty legitimate
190 2014-10-06 01:35:19 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: the bets are usually tiny with a high percentage of success. So a 'typical' user serssion may involve hundreds (or thousands) of bets.
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192 2014-10-06 01:35:50 <Luke-Jr> indeed, if each SD user only did one bet, there would be nothing unreasonable about their load
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194 2014-10-06 01:36:02 <brisque> kuzetsa: 4.1GB of bets. imagine there's 500,000 nodes. 2PB of bets stored.
195 2014-10-06 01:36:03 <sipa> the only way it works economically is because betters don't care about the irrationality of their action anyway
196 2014-10-06 01:37:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I can agree the reference implementation shouldn't have ugly hacks, but in production, ugly hacks solving problems is better than no solution at all
197 2014-10-06 01:37:11 <gmaxwell> (further emphasized by the several other ways that its inefficient that have no business model impact, e.g. using uncompressed keys... I actually took the time to write a fast compressed pubkey vanity gen for them and they refused to use it.)
198 2014-10-06 01:37:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: speaking of vanitygen code⦠can you send some my way? :P
199 2014-10-06 01:37:32 <brisque> gmaxwell: why on earth
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201 2014-10-06 01:37:44 <kuzetsa> brisque: yes, that's valid on a protocol level that all nodes will have the transactions (2PB, in your example)
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203 2014-10-06 01:37:53 <gmaxwell> back when it mattered, there are fairly few transactions now that it's not publically traded anymore (haha)
204 2014-10-06 01:38:18 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: well half the tx that they create are uneconomical to ever spend, so it's UTXO bloat too, even if you're not assuming nodes have history.
205 2014-10-06 01:38:27 <brisque> and this isn't blockchain.info's wallet anymore. https://i.imgur.com/8ib9H.png
206 2014-10-06 01:38:33 <kuzetsa> gmaxwell: yeah, so?
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209 2014-10-06 01:39:17 <kuzetsa> if it's not economical, that will create a darwinism-style extinction of this business model if we just let it be a bad idea and fail naturally.
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211 2014-10-06 01:39:50 <brisque> :C
212 2014-10-06 01:39:55 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: so its huge amounts of state that is required to validate the network, which makes bitcoin either less decenteralized or more costly for it use as a currency. ... again, this is behavior which is already discouraged economically by the system, which is short circuited by the use of economically irrational participants. In any case, I think of it mostly as a curiousity. It's no longer a huge harm now that the apparently ...
213 2014-10-06 01:40:01 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: ⦠did you read a thing anyone said in the last 15 mins?
214 2014-10-06 01:40:01 <gmaxwell> ... fradulent traffic is gone.
215 2014-10-06 01:40:15 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: it's not the _service_ that loses funds, its the users that do.
216 2014-10-06 01:40:24 brisque has left (":C")
217 2014-10-06 01:40:52 <kuzetsa> [21:31:11] <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: well half the tx that they create are uneconomical to ever spend, so it's UTXO bloat too, even if you're not assuming nodes have history. <<<< I misunderstood what you meant by "uneconomical to ever spend", apparently?
218 2014-10-06 01:41:22 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: the users end up with the uneconomical outputs
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220 2014-10-06 01:42:16 <kuzetsa> Luke-Jr: I feel completely amoral about who ends up with the "uneconomical to ever spend" UTXO set, as the end result will be darwinism-style extinction of this business model no matter which form of extinction occurs.
221 2014-10-06 01:42:22 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: the minimum required to validate the blockchain is a database of potentially spendable coins. if someone creates zillions of 1e-8 outputs for non-payment reasons (messaging), they'll sit around forever increasing that cost... incentivizing dependance on centeralized resources like pools or hosted wallets.
222 2014-10-06 01:42:29 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: why would it?
223 2014-10-06 01:42:37 <gmaxwell> kuzetsa: its an externality.
224 2014-10-06 01:42:46 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: the only way this extincts the "business model" is by extincting Bitcoin
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226 2014-10-06 01:43:11 <gmaxwell> normally the externality is guarded by fees. But you have 'suckers' that provide funds for free, defeating the defense.
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228 2014-10-06 01:43:23 <jtimon> kuzetsa: to reiterate, the key is that messaging is a bad use for the chain
229 2014-10-06 01:43:56 <gmaxwell> perhaps eventually all the gamblers in the world will go bankrupt... human history suggests this is unlikely. :P
230 2014-10-06 01:46:39 <gmaxwell> this is all too not-production now for #bitcoin-dev. :P
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232 2014-10-06 01:47:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: vanitygen code? pls? :p;
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235 2014-10-06 01:49:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: for bfgminer, it needs a bunch of work before I can hand it to you. Lets talk elsewhere.
236 2014-10-06 01:49:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm sure it does - were you planning on doing that? I assumed that'd be on me :p
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238 2014-10-06 01:49:30 <Luke-Jr> #eligius maybe?
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260 2014-10-06 02:16:13 <kuzetsa> xiando: your comment about the patch had me curious so I did an audit on gentoo's ebuild for bitcoind
261 2014-10-06 02:16:26 <kuzetsa> xiando: for bitcoind-0.9.2.1.ebuild at least, it has SRC_URI="https://github.com/${MyPN}/${MyPN}/archive/v${MyPV}.tar.gz -> ${MyPN}-v${PV}.tgz" and as such, bitcoin-v0.9.2.1.tgz gets pulled straight from the github repo with no evidence of patches being added (by luke or otherwise)
262 2014-10-06 02:17:00 <kuzetsa> also, I can't find any evidence that Luke-Jr is the package maintainer
263 2014-10-06 02:17:44 <kuzetsa> # $Header: /var/cvsroot/gentoo-x86/net-p2p/bitcoind/bitcoind-0.9.2.1.ebuild,v 1.4 2014/08/29 00:46:19 blueness Exp $
264 2014-10-06 02:17:44 <kuzetsa> ^ from the "actually officially part of gentoo's repo and not an overlay" ebuild
265 2014-10-06 02:18:15 <kuzetsa> or is gentoo's blueness actually Luke-Jr and I just never knew about that fact all these years?
266 2014-10-06 02:18:23 <kuzetsa> O_O
267 2014-10-06 02:19:48 <gmaxwell> man, it would suck if xiando was just trying to stir up drama
268 2014-10-06 02:20:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that was obvious from the start IMO
269 2014-10-06 02:20:18 <gmaxwell> I missed the beginning of the conversation.
270 2014-10-06 02:20:20 <kuzetsa> yeaaaah, I think maybe xiando is using luke's personal overlay instead of just getting the package from gentoo
271 2014-10-06 02:21:18 <xiando> /usr/portage/net-p2p/bitcoind/bitcoind-0.9.3.ebuild IUSE="examples +ljr logrotate test upnp +wallet" Try syncing if you are missing the latest ebuild
272 2014-10-06 02:21:28 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: I didn't backport my patchset until 0.9.3 - but this topic is getting old
273 2014-10-06 02:22:00 <Luke-Jr> (pre-0.9 did have some older patchsets)
274 2014-10-06 02:23:16 <kuzetsa> ah ok, I don't have any ebuild newer than 0.9.2.1.ebuild since I haven't done emerge --sync since the initial (major, remotely exploitable) shellshock vulnerabilities were being added to gentoo's portage tree
275 2014-10-06 02:23:28 <kuzetsa> *patches for [...]
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277 2014-10-06 02:25:30 <kuzetsa> ah, sure enough, SRC_URI on the newer version includes http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/bitcoind/luke-jr/0.9.x/[...] <<< gross, no thanks on that being a default
278 2014-10-06 02:25:44 <kuzetsa> xiando: please file a bug with gentoo's bugzilla and I'll ack
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282 2014-10-06 02:26:24 <Luke-Jr> kuzetsa: he already did; will probably close it INVALID or WORKSFORME
283 2014-10-06 02:26:36 <kuzetsa> oh ok, thanks
284 2014-10-06 02:26:46 <Luke-Jr> since there isn't an actual bug
285 2014-10-06 02:27:15 <Luke-Jr> (or if there is, xiando sure is trying hard not to say what it is)
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287 2014-10-06 02:31:56 <tom99> wait so this whole time I could have reported all the bugs I've ever had on gentoo, debian, ubuntu, and fedora?
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289 2014-10-06 02:34:40 <Luke-Jr> lol?
290 2014-10-06 02:35:04 <Luke-Jr> tom99: most have bug trackers, yes..
291 2014-10-06 02:35:08 <tom99> oh
292 2014-10-06 02:35:15 <tom99> sorry about that linux people!
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313 2014-10-06 02:57:41 <kuzetsa> xiando: ack -- v
314 2014-10-06 02:57:44 <kuzetsa> oops
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316 2014-10-06 02:57:54 <kuzetsa> xiando: my paste (ctrl + v) malfunctioned -- ack https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524512#c4
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627 2014-10-06 11:35:56 <Anduck> would it be good if wallets stopped displaying like, less than 500 satoshi transactions? it could be modifiable limit
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630 2014-10-06 11:36:13 <Anduck> then that 1-satoshi spam wouldnt reach the targets
631 2014-10-06 11:36:19 <Anduck> ( on default)
632 2014-10-06 11:36:36 <Anduck> also users wouldnt need to be annoyed by the dust they can't ever use
633 2014-10-06 11:39:26 <wumpus> at least bitcoin core already rejects transactions with outputs below the dust limit (5400 satoshis or so)
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639 2014-10-06 11:40:52 <wumpus> no clue about other wallets, but sounds like something that would be trivial to implement
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1002 2014-10-06 17:35:14 <DanMAbraham> am i allowed to show you guys a drawing i did?
1003 2014-10-06 17:35:26 <DanMAbraham> its my rendition of an elliptic curve
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1045 2014-10-06 18:14:28 <blueness> gribble, gwillen any other bitcoin devs. I'm the gentoo maintainer for bitcoins. we have controversy going on about https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524512
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1047 2014-10-06 18:15:09 <blueness> i have one and only one question, are sites like Sitoshi Dice a potential disruption to the bitcoin network? I'm referring to Luke-Jr's patch which blacklists them.
1048 2014-10-06 18:16:39 <gwillen> blueness: I'm not actually a bitcoin dev, just a moderator here; and gribble is a bot
1049 2014-10-06 18:16:44 <gwillen> but you will definitely find bitcoin devs here. :-)
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1051 2014-10-06 18:19:20 <justanotheruser> blueness: I'm not a coredev, but I think they are because of the way they handle losses
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1053 2014-10-06 18:20:19 <justanotheruser> or at least the way they handled losses when I tried them like a year ago.
1054 2014-10-06 18:21:01 <blueness> gwillen, are there any devs I should ask. i need to get upstreams' opinion on this since 1) the contraversy is politically motivated and 2) i don't understand the bitcoin network/protocol well enough to make a judgment. yet i want to make a judgment on technological grounds
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1056 2014-10-06 18:22:39 <justanotheruser> blueness: to tell someone they have lost they send them bitcoins that basically will never be redeemed which adds data to the UTXO forever, a database that every full node must have
1057 2014-10-06 18:22:39 <earlz> So wait, for that patch it blacklists transactions for satoshidice?
1058 2014-10-06 18:22:43 <justanotheruser> example 855d1acfbfce4cabd07ee6581b920460a04576e67260d4a2b22932d90a14fedf
1059 2014-10-06 18:23:06 <sipa> blueness: i'm a core developer; i can't say i disagree with people choosing or encouraging others to run such a patch (i have done so myself at times), but i consider it dishonest to make it a default
1060 2014-10-06 18:23:24 <blueness> justanotheruser, that information does help.
1061 2014-10-06 18:23:41 <earlz> I don't see what this patch actually helps unless you're a mining pool using the wallet for mining..
1062 2014-10-06 18:23:58 <blueness> sipa, i think i'm going to drop it as default and just put an informational blurb explaining what the patch does
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1066 2014-10-06 18:25:28 <earlz> How does this do anything to help the utxo bloat problem?
1067 2014-10-06 18:25:48 <blueness> sipa, is there reason for concern about all excess data in the UTXO?
1068 2014-10-06 18:26:35 <sipa> blueness: yes, creating transaction outputs that never get spent affects (fast) storage requirements for all future nodes
1069 2014-10-06 18:27:12 <sipa> earlz: SD creates many outputs that are too small to be economical to spend
1070 2014-10-06 18:27:13 <blueness> it makes sense to me. this is probably why their practices are being labeled a "DDoS"
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1073 2014-10-06 18:28:03 <kjj> I'm reading the deluge about CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY, and I seem to be missing something. Doesn't nlocktime already do exactly the same thing?
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1083 2014-10-06 18:37:34 <justanotheruser> blueness: they're not really denying service. Just making it more expensive
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1086 2014-10-06 18:41:39 <blueness> justanotheruser, okay a soft DoS. I'm getting the impression though that htey are not doing this intentionally, that the extra expense a side effect of how they are using bitcoins
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1088 2014-10-06 18:42:29 <justanotheruser> blueness: them DoSing bitcoin is a side effect, right
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1090 2014-10-06 18:43:23 <gavinandresen_> kjj: nlocktime locks a transaction so it canât get into the chain until later. CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY locks an output that is already in the chain, so it canât be spent until later.
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1092 2014-10-06 18:44:03 <blueness> justanotheruser, that's why the question of their intention is secondary. the more pressing issue is whether this extra impact is sufficiently high that it merits blacklisting them
1093 2014-10-06 18:44:10 <blueness> that is not soemthing i can judge
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1096 2014-10-06 18:45:08 <justanotheruser> blueness: the blacklist incentivizes them to not DoS bitcoin
1097 2014-10-06 18:45:08 <earlz> sipa: if they're sending more coins than dust though, it's still spendable and a full node needs to respect that or risk a fork..
1098 2014-10-06 18:45:26 <kjj> I'm astonished how quickly state was accepted into the conditions
1099 2014-10-06 18:45:53 <justanotheruser> earlz: there is no fork risk, it is changing whether a transaction is propogated, not whether it is valid
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1111 2014-10-06 18:54:55 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: to say the DoS is a side effect is based on intent, which we cannot know except from their actions; those actions do not suggest a benevolent intent (bluenessâº
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1113 2014-10-06 18:55:55 <Luke-Jr> earlz: dust is not a concept at the Bitcoin protocol itself
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1117 2014-10-06 18:58:30 <DanMAbraham> Luke-Jr: A gift for you https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=774681792573075&set=a.199734086734518.44877.100000937842586&type=1 - ;)
1118 2014-10-06 18:58:45 <DanMAbraham> EC Addition
1119 2014-10-06 18:58:59 <DanMAbraham> point doubling rather
1120 2014-10-06 18:59:00 <Luke-Jr> DanMAbraham: off-topic here, but thanks I guess
1121 2014-10-06 18:59:15 <DanMAbraham> oh sorry
1122 2014-10-06 18:59:29 <DanMAbraham> do you know if i drew it correctly?
1123 2014-10-06 19:00:04 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: do you think that satoshidice is malicious, or just lazy?
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1126 2014-10-06 19:01:02 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: based on their actions (I cannot know their mind), I have to conclude it is malicious; laziness would result in an implementation that doesn't harm the network
1127 2014-10-06 19:01:11 <Luke-Jr> (it's easier to implement correctly, than implement as a DoS)
1128 2014-10-06 19:01:49 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: I mean too lazy to change their old code and too lazy to read up on what harm is caused by sending dust.
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1132 2014-10-06 19:03:19 <justanotheruser> it probabably takes very few programmer-minutes to send dust when losing, but many to determine that it is bad
1133 2014-10-06 19:03:32 <sipa> i agree
1134 2014-10-06 19:03:33 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: that's only one small part of their DoS
1135 2014-10-06 19:03:39 <justanotheruser> oh?
1136 2014-10-06 19:03:55 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: the main problem is abusing transactions as messaging
1137 2014-10-06 19:04:20 <justanotheruser> how do they send messages other than sending "you lose" dust messages
1138 2014-10-06 19:04:23 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: I suggest going over the log from last night
1139 2014-10-06 19:04:29 <justanotheruser> ok
1140 2014-10-06 19:04:39 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: they also send "I bet X on game X" and "you win" messages
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1147 2014-10-06 19:16:44 <earlz> So, I'll use the F word... but why not hard-fork to enforce dust prevention at the block level? That'd also make a lot of dust UTXOs provably unspendable and safe to trim away
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1149 2014-10-06 19:21:29 <justanotheruser> earlz: besides hardforking, the dust level is dynamic
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1151 2014-10-06 19:21:42 <justanotheruser> as more and more bitcoins are lost, there will be smaller and smaller tx
1152 2014-10-06 19:21:50 <earlz> only in theory..
1153 2014-10-06 19:22:01 <Luke-Jr> earlz: the dust level is dynamic in more than just theory
1154 2014-10-06 19:22:03 <earlz> That's assuming more bitcoins are lost than minted
1155 2014-10-06 19:22:19 <earlz> I didn't mean the dust level being dynamic.. I know that's just tx relay limits
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1157 2014-10-06 19:22:27 <justanotheruser> earlz: you realize bitcoins stop being minted eventually right?
1158 2014-10-06 19:22:27 <Luke-Jr> earlz: also, it doesn't solve the problem.
1159 2014-10-06 19:22:28 <gavinandresen_> earlz: how many dust transactions are we averaging per block right now?
1160 2014-10-06 19:22:48 <earlz> I mean stuff like satoshidice.. isn't that dust?
1161 2014-10-06 19:22:55 <Luke-Jr> earlz: only about 48% of it
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1163 2014-10-06 19:24:12 <earlz> Well, if it's dust, then why not prevent it from being put into a block
1164 2014-10-06 19:24:27 <justanotheruser> earlz: it is prevented for the most part
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1166 2014-10-06 19:24:47 <earlz> How are the transactions getting put into blocks anyway, do they have a special mining pool?
1167 2014-10-06 19:24:48 <justanotheruser> if you define dust as being outputs below the dust limit anyways
1168 2014-10-06 19:24:49 <Luke-Jr> earlz: because dust is dynamic, we already said thisâ¦
1169 2014-10-06 19:25:43 <earlz> I thought there was a hard limit
1170 2014-10-06 19:25:47 <earlz> At least in bitcoin 0.9
1171 2014-10-06 19:26:09 <justanotheruser> earlz: for propogation
1172 2014-10-06 19:26:36 <earlz> yea.. but I mean what's the purpose of not enforcing that at the block level
1173 2014-10-06 19:26:49 <Luke-Jr> earlz: it's still dynamic. users can change it, and ideally it would automatically adjust (I believe gavinandresen is working on this logic)
1174 2014-10-06 19:27:13 <Luke-Jr> earlz: it's policy
1175 2014-10-06 19:27:19 <Luke-Jr> it's supposed to change and vary by node
1176 2014-10-06 19:27:33 <earlz> but that doesn't help the UTXO bloat problem, assuming SD has a pool or someone that accepts all their transactions
1177 2014-10-06 19:27:58 <sipa> the only true solution to UTXO bloat is settig a UTXO limit
1178 2014-10-06 19:28:10 <earlz> lol how would that even work
1179 2014-10-06 19:28:15 <sipa> just like there is a byte limit and sigop limit to blocks
1180 2014-10-06 19:28:27 <gavinandresen_> Reject any block that increases the UTXO set size âtoo muchâ
1181 2014-10-06 19:28:43 <Luke-Jr> didn't we just get rid of that in 0.8.2? ;p
1182 2014-10-06 19:28:43 <earlz> hmm.. that would be interesting
1183 2014-10-06 19:28:46 <gavinandresen_> I think we should incentivize reducing the UTXO set size first, see if that works
1184 2014-10-06 19:28:55 <gavinandresen_> (prefer blocks that reduce the UTXO set size in block races)
1185 2014-10-06 19:29:19 <justanotheruser> ???
1186 2014-10-06 19:29:20 <earlz> Only problem with that would be incentive for miners to mine empty blocks
1187 2014-10-06 19:29:23 <justanotheruser> sounds dangerous
1188 2014-10-06 19:29:25 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen_: that could be dangerous (but I'm not saying to forget it)
1189 2014-10-06 19:29:29 <gavinandresen_> empty blocks increase the UTXO set size.
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1191 2014-10-06 19:29:39 <earlz> Yes, but only by 1
1192 2014-10-06 19:29:45 <sipa> nope
1193 2014-10-06 19:29:47 <earlz> well..
1194 2014-10-06 19:29:54 <sipa> the coinbase canhave hundrds of outputs
1195 2014-10-06 19:30:01 <earlz> by only however many destinations the coinbase goes to... whatever
1196 2014-10-06 19:30:02 <Luke-Jr> if it's a simple comparison, transactions that increase the UTXO set size might simply never get mined
1197 2014-10-06 19:30:21 <gavinandresen_> Luke-Jr: mmm. Might have to pay a higher fee for such a transaction.....
1198 2014-10-06 19:30:25 <Luke-Jr> and you force people off pools with generational payouts to more centralised pools
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1200 2014-10-06 19:30:40 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen_: a fee to cover the entire subsidy you stand to lose..
1201 2014-10-06 19:30:42 <earlz> I mean an incentive for a miner to ignore all transactions.. there is already a tiny benefit to doing that anyway. The whole propogation bit
1202 2014-10-06 19:31:05 <Luke-Jr> otherwise I send a 1 BTC fee that I never actually pay because I continually make smaller-UTXO blocks to reorg off the ones with my tx
1203 2014-10-06 19:31:13 <justanotheruser> has anyone ever donated to reducing the utxo size?
1204 2014-10-06 19:31:29 <earlz> donating would technically increase it ;)
1205 2014-10-06 19:31:37 <sipa> before 0.8, the utxo setsize (ondisk) was several GB :)
1206 2014-10-06 19:31:42 <Luke-Jr> actually, I could possibly even do that with a 25 BTC fee if I can eliminate any chance I lose it
1207 2014-10-06 19:31:53 <justanotheruser> earlz: only if you do it wrong
1208 2014-10-06 19:32:18 <gmaxwell_> Well people giving away their dust in dust-b-gone transactions are donation to reduce the utxo set size.
1209 2014-10-06 19:32:30 <gavinandresen_> Luke-Jr: we want to incentivize several things: propagating blocks quickly (disincentivize selfish mining), including lots of transactions, decreasing (or at least not increasing too much) the UTXO set size.
1210 2014-10-06 19:32:31 <earlz> ah
1211 2014-10-06 19:32:51 <gavinandresen_> some function of all of those things to break block-races seems like the right way to go
1212 2014-10-06 19:33:03 <earlz> There's also the matter of people encoding data in the blockchain wrongly
1213 2014-10-06 19:33:08 <gavinandresen_> ⦠or maybe several functions that people can choose between or tweak
1214 2014-10-06 19:33:09 <Luke-Jr> "including lots of transactions" is not an obvious plus in itself - otherwise miners will just produce spam to inflate their blocks
1215 2014-10-06 19:33:23 <earlz> making funds unspendable by sending them to a set of addresses corresponding with data
1216 2014-10-06 19:33:26 <gavinandresen_> earlz: youâre coming across like a troll doing a gish gallop.
1217 2014-10-06 19:33:42 <earlz> :/ I dont' mean to
1218 2014-10-06 19:33:51 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen_: the hard part IMO is doing it all in a way that can't be gamed
1219 2014-10-06 19:34:29 <gavinandresen_> Luke-Jr: thatâs why I kind of like having several choices and letting people set policy on their own. Hard to game systems if you donât know what the rules actually are, because theyâre ever-changing
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1221 2014-10-06 19:34:50 <Luke-Jr> fair enough
1222 2014-10-06 19:34:52 <gavinandresen_> ⦠and if you do manage to game the system to harm it, easier for people to react quickly to fix
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1224 2014-10-06 19:35:41 <gavinandresen_> Anybody measuring UTXO set size growth? Is there a graph somewhere?
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1228 2014-10-06 19:36:27 <gmaxwell_> sipa has charted it in the past, most recent graph I saw was from brisque I think. (no news, ... dust limits appeared to work)
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1230 2014-10-06 19:37:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell_: was that before dust-spammers started paying large fees?
1231 2014-10-06 19:38:04 <earlz> why would people do that
1232 2014-10-06 19:38:20 <Luke-Jr> actually, weren't the dust rules supposed to block regardless of fee? /me wonders how they're getting around that
1233 2014-10-06 19:38:33 <Luke-Jr> earlz: blockchain.info lets you attach a message to the transaction; cheapish spam!
1234 2014-10-06 19:39:08 <earlz> I thought those messages were just local to blockchain.info. ie, never went onto the network
1235 2014-10-06 19:39:41 <Luke-Jr> earlz: they are
1236 2014-10-06 19:39:47 <Luke-Jr> but apparently spammers like them
1237 2014-10-06 19:39:52 <earlz> lol wtf
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1252 2014-10-06 19:50:50 <hearn> gavinandresen_: the flip side of that is if you don't know what the rules are, it's harder to write apps that work
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1254 2014-10-06 19:52:07 <gavinandresen_> hearn: hmm? Iâm talking about how to resolve block races, not whether or not your transaction will get accepted.....
1255 2014-10-06 19:52:21 <hearn> oh sorry, i thought you were meaning dust limits
1256 2014-10-06 19:52:24 <hearn> ignore me
1257 2014-10-06 19:52:34 <hearn> this is what i get for reading irc backwards :)
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1377 2014-10-06 22:18:26 <lightlike> hey guys
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1379 2014-10-06 22:18:53 <lightlike> trying to get bitcore working with my local bitcoind, but I keep getting a "socket hang up" message -- has anyone had/solved this before?
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1385 2014-10-06 22:27:25 <BlueMatt> lightlike: this is not bitcore support, contact bitpay
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