1 2014-10-10 00:00:22 <cfields> BlueMatt: it's just how autotools works. you don't hard-code the things you support, you test what works then use it
2 2014-10-10 00:00:40 <BlueMatt> but this is a public header
3 2014-10-10 00:00:41 Detritus has left ("Konversation terminated!")
4 2014-10-10 00:00:43 <BlueMatt> it is not for use within autotools
5 2014-10-10 00:00:53 <BlueMatt> so we cant use autotools things
6 2014-10-10 00:00:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: wrt libsecp256k1 ... so there is a stronger argument for using it for signing: libsecp256k1 is much more constant time than openssl (even if its not yet totally perfect or at least not proven perfect yet), and there is no consensus risk in signing. And if you verify the signature after basically no correctness risk.
7 2014-10-10 00:01:08 <gmaxwell> (modulo some k handling of course)
8 2014-10-10 00:01:13 <BlueMatt> (unless we make the header itself a .h.in and let autotools make one for use)
9 2014-10-10 00:01:20 <BlueMatt> which may be required for declspec anyway
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11 2014-10-10 00:01:39 <sipa> .h.in is pretty yuck
12 2014-10-10 00:01:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: so is windows :p
13 2014-10-10 00:01:55 <sipa> sounds like it would result in all sorts of incompatibilities
14 2014-10-10 00:01:58 <sipa> but that's life i guess
15 2014-10-10 00:02:07 <BlueMatt> I think you have to for windows
16 2014-10-10 00:02:23 <BlueMatt> unless you want to define a symbol -DBUILDING_BITCOIN_LIBRARIES
17 2014-10-10 00:02:26 <BlueMatt> and #if on that
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19 2014-10-10 00:02:34 <sipa> yuck
20 2014-10-10 00:02:36 <cfields> BlueMatt: yes, that's exactly how it works
21 2014-10-10 00:02:58 <BlueMatt> cfields: yes, and that is yucky :p
22 2014-10-10 00:03:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: but partially migrating is extra work
23 2014-10-10 00:03:16 <cfields> that's how projects handle it. define on the cmdline, if it's detected include bitcoin-config.h
24 2014-10-10 00:03:31 <BlueMatt> wait...whaaa?
25 2014-10-10 00:03:37 <BlueMatt> why do we need to include bitcoin-config.h ever?
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27 2014-10-10 00:04:33 <cfields> when we're building it internally, to avoid building multiple times
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29 2014-10-10 00:04:54 <BlueMatt> what?
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31 2014-10-10 00:05:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes sure. but its reasonable to do that. We can migrate signing much faster... and the timing attacks in openssl are real and exploitable, if somewhat fringe and only applying in an already ill advised configuration.
32 2014-10-10 00:05:18 <cfields> BlueMatt: i'll dig up my branch in a bit. it's really how other projects handle it
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34 2014-10-10 00:06:49 <BlueMatt> cfields: building a bitcoinconsensus.h.in makes sense because it may be required for declspec, but how does including bitcoin-config.h effect building multiple times?
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37 2014-10-10 00:11:08 <cfields> BlueMatt: We need to be able to control how we build internally, externally, and how we present that to client libs
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39 2014-10-10 00:11:27 <cfields> for example, we'll soon have the choice of using openssl/libsecp256k1 for the lib..
40 2014-10-10 00:11:39 gmaxwell has quit (Changing host)
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42 2014-10-10 00:11:42 <sipa> ... which should not affect the external interface at all
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44 2014-10-10 00:12:58 <cfields> external, right. but since we share the header, it differs for internal usage
45 2014-10-10 00:13:10 <cfields> grrgh, just give me a bit to do up a POC :)
46 2014-10-10 00:13:15 <sipa> i don't understand
47 2014-10-10 00:13:16 <cfields> better yet, sec, let me find another
48 2014-10-10 00:13:17 <sipa> ok
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51 2014-10-10 00:14:29 <cfields> /usr/include/pngconf.h
52 2014-10-10 00:14:39 <cfields> i'm sure you have that around
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54 2014-10-10 00:15:28 <lechuga_> libconsensus!
55 2014-10-10 00:15:34 <lechuga_> BlueMatt: awesome
56 2014-10-10 00:15:41 <sipa> cfields: what does it need that for?
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64 2014-10-10 00:19:45 <cfields> sipa: there are all kinds of build configs that need to be supported. they require different attributes in different cases. for ex, if we ship a .a, it needs to be able to work in a .dll or a .obj. declspec oddities make that difficult.
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67 2014-10-10 00:20:06 <cfields> it's possible that we can skip all that since our interface is so small, but that's the standard approach
68 2014-10-10 00:20:06 <sipa> but a .h.in handles that fine, no?
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70 2014-10-10 00:21:13 <cfields> possibly, depends if we end up needing any of our config info
71 2014-10-10 00:21:15 <sipa> anyway, no strong opinion here -it all sounds ugly :p
72 2014-10-10 00:21:42 <cfields> for example, if we still have the boost dep, we'll have to check a few things about how it was built
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75 2014-10-10 00:22:42 <cfields> heh yes, it's ugly. i'm really not suggesting anything crazy though, it's quite standard for libs
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79 2014-10-10 00:24:04 <BlueMatt> cfields: for now, I think all we need is ship a .so, so that means we should need a .h.in to ship proper declspec, and that should be it, no?
80 2014-10-10 00:24:19 <sipa> BlueMatt: whoa, rpcprotocol.cpp? :o
81 2014-10-10 00:24:40 <sipa> (not a complaint; just surprised that you need it - and certainly something to fix)
82 2014-10-10 00:24:44 <cfields> heh, fwiw, my list is about 1/10 that size
83 2014-10-10 00:24:45 <BlueMatt> if we're doing that, that should mean just build one .h to be instaleld (with an #if WINDOWS -> declspec) and one for build time (that can include bitcoin-config.h for the visibility availability)?
84 2014-10-10 00:24:54 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, I think it still builds with that removed
85 2014-10-10 00:25:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: but I deliberately didnt remove anything and just copied EVERYTHING
86 2014-10-10 00:25:11 <sipa> ah, ok
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88 2014-10-10 00:25:42 <BlueMatt> if we turned on -flto it wouldnt matter since we only expose the right symbols
89 2014-10-10 00:25:50 <BlueMatt> but since we dont, we can trim it down by listing files
90 2014-10-10 00:26:42 <sipa> anyway, the code looks good
91 2014-10-10 00:27:03 <sipa> i'll let you can cory flesh out the building issues
92 2014-10-10 00:27:07 <cfields> BlueMatt: i'll work something up. it's really hard to discuss the edge-cases without a working example
93 2014-10-10 00:27:11 <sipa> s/can/and/
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95 2014-10-10 00:27:36 <BlueMatt> cfields: sure, go for it
96 2014-10-10 00:27:37 <cfields> let me push up my boost stuff so you guys can start berating me for that instead :)
97 2014-10-10 00:27:47 <BlueMatt> cfields: heh, sounds like a plan
98 2014-10-10 00:27:50 <lechuga_> super excited
99 2014-10-10 00:28:35 <cfields> BlueMatt: i'm not trying to be NIH about it, just that i think there are more edge cases than you'd realize
100 2014-10-10 00:28:46 * sipa fires a laser a lecu
101 2014-10-10 00:28:52 * sipa fires a laser a lechuga_
102 2014-10-10 00:28:53 <lechuga_> :)
103 2014-10-10 00:29:06 <lechuga_> unsure if that's bad
104 2014-10-10 00:29:06 <BlueMatt> cfields: I'm absolutely sure there are
105 2014-10-10 00:29:09 <BlueMatt> cfields: go for it :)
106 2014-10-10 00:29:33 * gmaxwell looks forward to being able to upgrade to gcc 4.7+ and being able to use lto.
107 2014-10-10 00:29:52 <cfields> gmaxwell: iirc i didn't have anyt luck with it until 4.9
108 2014-10-10 00:30:16 <cfields> but i think there was also an adjustment period for binutils, so that might not've been all gcc's fault
109 2014-10-10 00:30:47 <gmaxwell> cfields: it's pretty solid in 4.7+ in my expirence (also from reading gcc buzilla)
110 2014-10-10 00:31:03 <gmaxwell> but indeed there are binutils interactions, were you testing on mac?
111 2014-10-10 00:31:13 <cfields> no
112 2014-10-10 00:31:51 <cfields> gmaxwell: iirc it was that binutils' ar couln't pull out gimple, so it just kinda skipped over it
113 2014-10-10 00:32:10 <cfields> worked well with a bunch of .o's though :)
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116 2014-10-10 00:32:48 <cfields> for me that wasn't fixed until 4.9ish, but maybe that just coincided with the first set of working binutils i ended up with
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118 2014-10-10 00:33:36 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure that was your binutils.
119 2014-10-10 00:34:19 <cfields> well i think upstream binutils still has that problem, no? isn't that why the gcc-ar and friends were born?
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123 2014-10-10 00:37:34 <cfields> ah, right, those just setup the plugins correctly
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128 2014-10-10 00:38:43 <cfields> sipa / BlueMatt: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commits/nuke-boost-in-script
129 2014-10-10 00:39:16 <cfields> not quite finished yet, but there's a ton of reshuffling, so i'm hesitant to keep going
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136 2014-10-10 00:45:57 <sipa> cfields: wow, looks like it was a lot more work than i expected
137 2014-10-10 00:46:05 <sipa> i'm halfway threough the commits
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139 2014-10-10 00:46:54 <cfields> it's not as bad as it looks. it just took some time to figure out how to split it out of the deep core stuff without being too invasive
140 2014-10-10 00:47:46 <cfields> it's basically just removing boost from serialize, removing allocators from serialize, and splitting out pubkey
141 2014-10-10 00:48:34 <sipa> yup, you use a ton of commits, but it's fine
142 2014-10-10 00:48:48 <sipa> lgtm, apart from verifying move-onlyness
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145 2014-10-10 00:50:07 <cfields> sipa: suggestions for where to stick CKey::CheckSignatureElement ?
146 2014-10-10 00:50:37 <cfields> it needs to move out of CKey. Feels like cheating to just shove it in CPubKey :)
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148 2014-10-10 00:50:57 <sipa> well...
149 2014-10-10 00:51:10 <sipa> if you 'd call it keyverify and keysign instead of key and pubkey...
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151 2014-10-10 00:53:48 <cfields> heh, ok
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155 2014-10-10 00:54:34 <cfields> sipa: last one is logging. we currently use our own error() stuff which pulls in our logging and boost...
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159 2014-10-10 00:55:37 <cfields> i figure we can either let the user pass in an error object, but i suspect you'll think that's over-engineered
160 2014-10-10 00:55:45 <cfields> -either
161 2014-10-10 00:56:22 <gmaxwell> in the long long term I hope we can move to making the interface boundary C callable, as doing so is basically a requirement to use from other languages.
162 2014-10-10 00:56:36 <gmaxwell> (long long term, not this release or probably next :) )
163 2014-10-10 00:57:02 <cfields> gmaxwell: i had planned on doing up a quick c shim, i don't think it should be terribly nasty?
164 2014-10-10 00:57:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: the consensus library?
165 2014-10-10 00:57:26 <gmaxwell> yes.
166 2014-10-10 00:57:32 <sipa> it's already C callable
167 2014-10-10 00:57:40 <sipa> (matt's current proposal)
168 2014-10-10 00:57:50 <gmaxwell> I said this because cfields was talking about an error object.
169 2014-10-10 00:57:52 <phantomcircuit> blargh
170 2014-10-10 00:58:02 <phantomcircuit> er
171 2014-10-10 00:58:04 <phantomcircuit> wrong channel
172 2014-10-10 00:58:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's internally in the implementation, not in the interface
173 2014-10-10 00:58:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: the caller is presumably providing the error handling, no? surely logging shouldn't be internal! :)
174 2014-10-10 00:58:45 <gmaxwell> Sorry if I'm desynced.
175 2014-10-10 00:58:46 <sipa> it just retuens a bool
176 2014-10-10 00:59:01 <cfields> sipa: it's not callable as-is, it needs a shim for creating objects
177 2014-10-10 00:59:15 <cfields> sipa: ah whoops, sorry. nm
178 2014-10-10 00:59:24 <sipa> cfields: imho the library shouldn't be doing any logging at all
179 2014-10-10 00:59:30 <gmaxwell> (actually I want the whole thing to become C too. But thats n-phases away.)
180 2014-10-10 00:59:39 <sipa> nor should any of script or core even call to logging
181 2014-10-10 00:59:44 <gmaxwell> I thought it gave side information for failure reasons.
182 2014-10-10 00:59:45 <sipa> it's just data structures and direct checks
183 2014-10-10 00:59:47 <jtimon> so script/script is free from boost there, and so is script/interpreter, but the latter depends on core.o which uses boost
184 2014-10-10 00:59:52 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, large n i presume
185 2014-10-10 01:00:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: script currently doesn't even do that in bitcoin
186 2014-10-10 01:00:25 <sipa> (and yes, it would be useful, but logging is not the right way...)
187 2014-10-10 01:00:32 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: not really. It's already not really doing anything super snazzy. It does have consensus risk since it requires making more of the memory management explicit... so not now.
188 2014-10-10 01:00:40 <cfields> jtimon: well, we only need the core header, to be precise..
189 2014-10-10 01:00:48 <sipa> cfields: gah
190 2014-10-10 01:00:56 <sipa> please don't go that way
191 2014-10-10 01:00:57 <cfields> but anyway, it's just a few FOREACH, those can be easily removed
192 2014-10-10 01:01:37 <gmaxwell> I mean, it can be done with less coding than we've done so far in the pure refactoring.... but some work compariable to the bignum change is required to prove it correct.
193 2014-10-10 01:01:43 <cfields> sipa: that's why i was hoping get the core structures layered, so that serialization and higher-level functionality would be split up
194 2014-10-10 01:02:07 <sipa> cfields: core should pretty much just become header only and only be data structures ad serializaqtion
195 2014-10-10 01:02:10 <gmaxwell> (e.g. piecewise exhaustive testing)
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197 2014-10-10 01:02:20 <sipa> everything else that is in there is stuff that needs to be moved to validation code
198 2014-10-10 01:02:25 <sipa> or utility code
199 2014-10-10 01:03:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: at this point, all we need is a way to make the code inside script to just not do logging
200 2014-10-10 01:03:39 <cfields> ok, then we're not too far apart :)
201 2014-10-10 01:03:54 <cfields> either way, i didn't mess with the BOOST_FOREACH. those should be easy to kill off
202 2014-10-10 01:04:02 <jtimon> sipa duplicating a few lines from core is the fatest way to avoid both including core.h without linking core.o and removing the boost foreach in core
203 2014-10-10 01:04:05 <cfields> there are a few in script/ too still, iirc
204 2014-10-10 01:04:26 <sipa> jtimon: i know; i really won't repeat myself again anymore about this
205 2014-10-10 01:04:30 <jtimon> when core becomes header only we can stop duplicating
206 2014-10-10 01:04:33 <gmaxwell> jtimon: really not a fan of duplicating even if its the fastest way to achieve nice seperation here. Any duplication is a long term risk which should be carefully justified.
207 2014-10-10 01:05:15 <cfields> so, backing up a bit... was there a conclusion for logging?
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209 2014-10-10 01:05:50 <sipa> so one way is splitting off the logging code out of util, and then provide an alternative headers-only dummy .h with the same interface
210 2014-10-10 01:05:58 <sipa> wait, that's not enough
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212 2014-10-10 01:06:16 <sipa> can't we just kill off logging from core and script :(
213 2014-10-10 01:06:30 <cfields> sipa: iirc there's only 1 major offender
214 2014-10-10 01:06:31 <cfields> sec
215 2014-10-10 01:06:34 <sipa> like, delete it
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217 2014-10-10 01:06:50 <sipa> if we need more specise information about validation failure, it should return a status object
218 2014-10-10 01:07:00 <sipa> not print text directly to disk...
219 2014-10-10 01:07:10 <jtimon> gmaxwell it's not a lot of duplication https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/commit/7d492e9d4406c5aecd5fd064c6cf3c5f6d46d3dd
220 2014-10-10 01:07:48 <jtimon> just the structs plus serialization
221 2014-10-10 01:07:53 <cfields> sipa: i agree. but you don't think it's necessary to expose that status externally?
222 2014-10-10 01:07:59 <sipa> which is _exactly_ what coins just should be
223 2014-10-10 01:08:02 <sipa> *core
224 2014-10-10 01:08:15 <sipa> cfields: yes, but we're not doing that right now either
225 2014-10-10 01:08:35 <sipa> i absolutely think we should return information about failure
226 2014-10-10 01:08:42 <sipa> but that's an independent question of this work
227 2014-10-10 01:09:22 <jtimon> sipa, what about creating a basecore.o with those classes as Bases and make the current ones extend from them?
228 2014-10-10 01:10:10 <sipa> that's one solution - though i think just moving the extra validation isn't much more work than that
229 2014-10-10 01:10:19 <jtimon> after moving everything from core, basecore can be renamed to core again
230 2014-10-10 01:10:20 <sipa> ehh, extra logic
231 2014-10-10 01:10:35 <cfields> sipa: so your proposal is to just nuke it, for the sake of the boost removal?
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233 2014-10-10 01:10:48 <sipa> cfields: well what are the offenders?
234 2014-10-10 01:11:13 <cfields> it wouldn't be too much work to whip up a quick enum with corresponding error messages, user passes in a pointer to that
235 2014-10-10 01:11:25 <sipa> the non-canonical encodings stuff can just go imho
236 2014-10-10 01:11:36 <cfields> sipa: just interpreter.cpp
237 2014-10-10 01:12:27 <sipa> i vote delete them
238 2014-10-10 01:12:34 <sipa> (but that may be controversial)
239 2014-10-10 01:12:54 <sipa> longer term, have script validation return a status object
240 2014-10-10 01:13:13 <cfields> well, that's easy, and gives us something to build from
241 2014-10-10 01:13:20 <cfields> so, will do
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243 2014-10-10 01:19:06 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
244 2014-10-10 01:19:18 <gmaxwell> it's very useful knowing where something has failed, in particular in some kind of urgent consensus failure situation the time lost just to get an initial bisection on where failure is happening can be critical. OTOH, this should probably be handled in a different way than the normal logging. E.g. something like a status structure which is set at every possible failure point with a codified rule number and __FILE__ __LINE__ information.
245 2014-10-10 01:20:01 <sipa> right, that.
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253 2014-10-10 01:33:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: seen http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/20411/bfgminer-rejected-problem ?
254 2014-10-10 01:33:50 NewLiberty has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
255 2014-10-10 01:34:58 <Luke-Jr> nope
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263 2014-10-10 01:48:17 <phantomcircuit> sipa, looks like session resume issues
264 2014-10-10 01:48:23 <phantomcircuit> which could either be bfgminer or the pool
265 2014-10-10 01:48:37 <sipa> answer there; i don't care about the answer :)
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296 2014-10-10 02:47:15 <earlz> So, is there a library for javascript for interfacing with the RPC interface... that runs in the browser?
297 2014-10-10 02:47:27 <earlz> as dangerous as that sounds lol
298 2014-10-10 02:48:07 <lechuga_> it doesn't exist in bitcore?
299 2014-10-10 02:50:02 Centaure_ has joined
300 2014-10-10 02:50:23 <gmaxwell> earlz: no. somewhat hard to prevent CSRF. ... esp some stupid browsers like IE do credential caching.
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304 2014-10-10 02:52:09 <earlz> he wayyyy too many stupid altcoin devs provide coins with a configuration including a default username/password/rpcport and of course server=1... so terrible
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315 2014-10-10 03:18:41 <earlz> weird. I can't get bitcore to work inbrowser
316 2014-10-10 03:18:46 TheSeven has joined
317 2014-10-10 03:18:59 <earlz> the daemon just seems to return empty responses to an OPTION request or something
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321 2014-10-10 03:24:23 <earlz> I don't see how this bitcore browser ever works
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371 2014-10-10 05:03:09 <eadz> anyone know what is up with testnet. According to https://test-insight.bitpay.com/blocks the last 7800 blocks are orphaned?
372 2014-10-10 05:08:10 eadz has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
373 2014-10-10 05:12:44 <phantomcircuit> it's test net...
374 2014-10-10 05:14:13 syst3mw0_ has joined
375 2014-10-10 05:14:20 <null_radix> hey sipa are you around?
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386 2014-10-10 05:30:04 <linuxguru> hi guys, i just did an install of bitcoind on GENTOO linux, but for some reason its not working with satoshi dice... is this expected behaviour from the master bitcoin code? did devs start blocking certain addresses and making bitcoin not fungible? if not why is this bug present in the gentoo package?
387 2014-10-10 05:30:07 coeus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
388 2014-10-10 05:30:45 <linuxguru> The gentoo package is not behaving as the master branch on github does.... why is there a bug in the gentoo distribution>?
389 2014-10-10 05:32:18 nezZario has joined
390 2014-10-10 05:33:19 <gmaxwell> linuxguru: Take it up with gentoo. Please don't discuss it further here. (sorry to be harsh, but esp with comments like "did devs start ... making bitcoin not fungible" it's really hard to tell if you're trolling or not. We're not going to discuss this, it's a gentoo thing.
391 2014-10-10 05:33:24 <gmaxwell> )
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396 2014-10-10 05:38:34 <gmaxwell> (nice altcoin email address / sig there :( )
397 2014-10-10 05:39:03 ubuntu_ has joined
398 2014-10-10 05:39:12 <justanotheruser> lol
399 2014-10-10 05:39:23 <justanotheruser> there has been a wave of FUD coming about the gentoo thing
400 2014-10-10 05:39:34 <justanotheruser> I doubt that many people use gentoo. I have a feeling its the same people
401 2014-10-10 05:39:40 <justanotheruser> or a set of different people working for blackcoin
402 2014-10-10 05:42:10 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: I doubt half the trolls even use Gentoo themselves. There are more users happy with it than unhappy, though, so I guess that says enough. Anyhow, off-topic here ;)
403 2014-10-10 05:44:53 <gmaxwell> Right. My frown was mostly just the possibility that it is FUD being pushed by alt pumpers is really unappealing... the world is a hard enough place without people trying to crap on your system purely because it helps them promote something else, some of whom have no reputation to protect and so don't mind how much mud they fling... oh well. no use speculating or lamenting.
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408 2014-10-10 05:52:40 <lechuga_> weird
409 2014-10-10 05:53:00 <lechuga_> and they all seem to troll re: luke's patches
410 2014-10-10 05:53:12 <lechuga_> prob same guy
411 2014-10-10 05:54:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that was 1000% a troll
412 2014-10-10 05:54:22 <lechuga_> hard to believe they're all actually frustrated using bitcoin-qt for satoshidice
413 2014-10-10 05:54:25 <lechuga_> and find this channel
414 2014-10-10 05:54:51 <gmaxwell> The world is a wide and weird place.
415 2014-10-10 05:54:57 <gmaxwell> All things are possible.
416 2014-10-10 05:55:10 <Belxjander> well the gentoo gain of bitcoind as a package must have happened sometime within the last 2 years
417 2014-10-10 05:55:12 <lechuga_> how's that razor thing go
418 2014-10-10 05:55:22 <Belxjander> lechuga_: occams razor?
419 2014-10-10 05:55:30 <gmaxwell> (in any case, the probablities are why I gave the result I did.)
420 2014-10-10 05:55:38 <lechuga_> i want 2 say yes but suspicious of troll
421 2014-10-10 05:55:48 <lechuga_> heh
422 2014-10-10 05:56:15 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: occams razor cuts both ways. If you think about it trolling actually doesn't make a lot of sense, so ... perhaps we should assume there are no trolls. (also, assume there are no offtopic conversations?)
423 2014-10-10 05:56:45 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: but isn't making the assumptions in the first place also cutting yourself off from possibilities?
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427 2014-10-10 05:57:37 <gmaxwell> ::shrugs:: I gave a response which was hopefully acceptable under a wide set of possibilities.
428 2014-10-10 05:57:51 <lechuga_> agreed
429 2014-10-10 06:00:24 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i have yet to see anybody mention that the patch is a use flag
430 2014-10-10 06:00:47 <phantomcircuit> which strongly indicates nobody complaining about it is actually even using gentoo
431 2014-10-10 06:02:40 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: hmm? It's a default-enabled package-specific USE flag
432 2014-10-10 06:02:53 <gwillen> so most people will get it without knowing it exists
433 2014-10-10 06:03:44 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, people install packages without checking the use flags
434 2014-10-10 06:03:45 <phantomcircuit> wat
435 2014-10-10 06:03:53 <gwillen> :rolleyes:
436 2014-10-10 06:04:07 <gwillen> how many gentoo packages have you installed, to claim you have manually checked the USE flags for each one :-P
437 2014-10-10 06:04:17 <gwillen> any functioning gentoo system has thousands of packages with at least thousands of USE flags
438 2014-10-10 06:04:30 <phantomcircuit> lots?
439 2014-10-10 06:04:33 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: 1784, and when I first install something new I usually check it
440 2014-10-10 06:04:38 <phantomcircuit> most packages dont have package specific use flags
441 2014-10-10 06:04:56 <Luke-Jr> and Portage conveniently tells me when packages being updated have new USE flags
442 2014-10-10 06:04:59 <gwillen> I'm sure you've not checked the package specific USE flags for all the dependencies you've ever pulled in
443 2014-10-10 06:05:07 <Belxjander> gwillen: I have run a gentoo system...and I automated the update process to occur fortnightly...left the box for a year and required rewriting the use flags at that point as they actively changed a lot of them
444 2014-10-10 06:05:09 <gwillen> although I suppose that's not at issue here unless bitcoin will get pulled in as a dependency of something
445 2014-10-10 06:05:11 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: most of the time I don't care much
446 2014-10-10 06:05:32 <Belxjander> gwillen: I had made section specific use flags listing ALL of the packages installed on the target system with package specific on/off settings
447 2014-10-10 06:05:46 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, er yeah i have
448 2014-10-10 06:05:51 <gwillen> o_O
449 2014-10-10 06:06:02 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: in any case, a user who doesn't care, doesn't care.
450 2014-10-10 06:06:04 NewLiberty has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
451 2014-10-10 06:06:08 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: that sounds like a lot more effort than I'm willing to put in to sysadminning I guess
452 2014-10-10 06:06:15 <gwillen> since I'm not getting paid for it
453 2014-10-10 06:06:51 <Belxjander> gwillen: I did that on a home server setup...and it was a pita for about a day...then a full rebuild afterwards with some cleanup after that
454 2014-10-10 06:07:15 syst3mw0rm has joined
455 2014-10-10 06:07:32 <gwillen> what I found when I ran gentoo is that most package-specific USE flags were not even adquately documented for me to know what they _did_
456 2014-10-10 06:07:36 <gwillen> this was some years ago, though
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460 2014-10-10 06:08:24 <gwillen> anyway, this is not the right place for gentoo discussion, I just found the assumption dubious that most Gentoo users would check for available USE flags before installing every package
461 2014-10-10 06:08:35 <Belxjander> gwillen: definitely...easier to make a global "USE" flags setup and then package specific use flags listings for anything "extra" that may include dependency loops or other "broken" behaviours when installing the system
462 2014-10-10 06:09:00 <gmaxwell> And the troll(?) wins. :-/
463 2014-10-10 06:09:08 <Belxjander> gwillen: the whole gentoo package situation is a bit over-automateable at the moment
464 2014-10-10 06:09:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, shrug
465 2014-10-10 06:09:25 <Belxjander> at least imho
466 2014-10-10 06:09:30 <gmaxwell> All it takes for trolls to be victorious on the internet is for geeks to be geeks on the internet. :)
467 2014-10-10 06:11:11 Eiii has quit ()
468 2014-10-10 06:11:20 <Luke-Jr> XD
469 2014-10-10 06:14:31 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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472 2014-10-10 06:22:07 <Luke-Jr> (if anyone wants to help stifle this brand of troll on reddit before it gets in the hands of more trolls: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ityg2/warning_bitcoin_address_blacklists_have_been/ )
473 2014-10-10 06:24:07 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: looks like you're about to get boycotted
474 2014-10-10 06:24:18 * justanotheruser removes every change made by Luke-Jr from bitcoin core
475 2014-10-10 06:24:22 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: lol, as if trolls hire me anyway
476 2014-10-10 06:24:57 <Luke-Jr> I mean, part of my job in Bitcoin is to get the trolls on my back so they leave the others alone, right? :p
477 2014-10-10 06:25:30 <Belxjander> well...THAT would be a subtle form of assualt...hire the main programmers of a project for "make work" and dump the results but keeping them too busy to retain management interest in the project...
478 2014-10-10 06:25:51 <Luke-Jr> lol
479 2014-10-10 06:25:56 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: well it looks like you may be doing that...extra well?
480 2014-10-10 06:26:05 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: maybe.
481 2014-10-10 06:26:23 <justanotheruser> Perhaps you can be bitcoin cores PR lead
482 2014-10-10 06:26:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
483 2014-10-10 06:26:56 <justanotheruser> the responses would be hilarious
484 2014-10-10 06:27:06 <wumpus> justanotheruser: ah yes the master_no_lukejr branch :-)
485 2014-10-10 06:27:26 <Luke-Jr> someone should make that
486 2014-10-10 06:27:30 <Luke-Jr> it'd be interesting
487 2014-10-10 06:27:45 <justanotheruser> wumpus: would get a lot of support I bet
488 2014-10-10 06:27:51 <Luke-Jr> "yes, we know it rounds to 2 decimal places; no, that's not a bug, it's what you asked for."
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492 2014-10-10 06:30:02 <wumpus> heh, a small practical problem would be that once a patch becomes too deeply buried in history it becomes impossible to revert it
493 2014-10-10 06:30:14 <wumpus> too many changes to the same code since :)
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495 2014-10-10 06:31:15 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not impossible, just very difficult :P
496 2014-10-10 06:32:22 <wumpus> so difficult that at some point it would be easier to build a time machine to go back in time and avoid Luke-Jr's commits from being merged in the first place :p
497 2014-10-10 06:33:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: meh, you can always revert by implementing the opposite of the commit message ;)
498 2014-10-10 06:34:49 <gmaxwell> meh, just remove mining and the wallet, that should get the vast majority of luke's code. :P
499 2014-10-10 06:36:02 <wumpus> a sledgehammer approach, but effective
500 2014-10-10 06:36:59 cbeams has joined
501 2014-10-10 06:38:36 <Luke-Jr> btw, I submitted a PR tonight with step 1 of moving policy to its own (potentially-subclassable) source file :p
502 2014-10-10 06:40:22 da2ce7 has joined
503 2014-10-10 06:41:16 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: interesting!
504 2014-10-10 06:41:44 natoshisakamoto has joined
505 2014-10-10 06:41:52 <natoshisakamoto> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ityg2/warning_bitcoin_address_blacklists_have_been/
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507 2014-10-10 06:42:09 <natoshisakamoto> have you guys seen this?
508 2014-10-10 06:43:30 <gmaxwell> natoshisakamoto: you realize that we can tell that you're the same person who joined earlier and was asked to take this elsewhere, right?
509 2014-10-10 06:43:32 <Luke-Jr> natoshisakamoto: yes thanks, but trolling like that is off-topic here
510 2014-10-10 06:43:59 <Luke-Jr> ugh, this guy is spamming every #bitcoin channel
511 2014-10-10 06:44:12 <Luke-Jr> (or at least 2 so far)
512 2014-10-10 06:44:36 <natoshisakamoto> luke, you deserve it. stop fucking with default behaviour of master branch code
513 2014-10-10 06:44:57 <natoshisakamoto> take your facist dictator nazi code elsewhere
514 2014-10-10 06:45:17 <petertodd> thanks
515 2014-10-10 06:45:52 <gwillen> np
516 2014-10-10 06:46:01 <petertodd> trolling for ACKs for 'Discourage fee sniping with nLockTime' - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2340
517 2014-10-10 06:46:09 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: this is probably too surprising a default, as I said earlier. It would be super better to just have no default and useflag the policy entirely. (well not the most usable, but its more in the gentoo spirit)
518 2014-10-10 06:46:25 <petertodd> fixed the last issue, and I just noticed it's been open for 1 year, 7 months...
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535 2014-10-10 07:07:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'll have to split up my branch between policy and features. It's doable, just needs time.
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540 2014-10-10 07:19:15 <BlueMatt> wumpus: "well, someone else thinks this is a good idea" may be the worst reason to be the first person to ack a pull....
541 2014-10-10 07:19:32 <wumpus> BlueMatt: well, it's mildly useful isn't it
542 2014-10-10 07:19:41 <wumpus> BlueMatt: I just don't want huge discussions about something trivial like that
543 2014-10-10 07:20:10 <wumpus> the code is obviously correct, so the only discussion would be about desirability of the feature
544 2014-10-10 07:20:21 <BlueMatt> keyword there is "first person to"
545 2014-10-10 07:20:23 <BlueMatt> :)
546 2014-10-10 07:20:33 <sipa> which pull?
547 2014-10-10 07:20:35 <petertodd> the RPC interface is weird, because it gets used so often by humans
548 2014-10-10 07:20:44 <BlueMatt> we need a "meh, I wont merge it, but code lgtm"
549 2014-10-10 07:20:50 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4964
550 2014-10-10 07:21:17 <sipa> ah
551 2014-10-10 07:21:22 <sipa> little opibion
552 2014-10-10 07:21:47 <BlueMatt> opibion?
553 2014-10-10 07:22:11 <sipa> "i have little opinion"
554 2014-10-10 07:22:29 <wumpus> but I'm ok with adding it to bitcoin-tx instead as well (if someone bothers to do that)
555 2014-10-10 07:23:02 * BlueMatt votes for merge to avoid further discussion
556 2014-10-10 07:23:05 <sipa> it should be in bitcoin-key :)
557 2014-10-10 07:23:07 <petertodd> BlueMatt: ha
558 2014-10-10 07:23:08 <BlueMatt> since it has now had more discussion than its worth
559 2014-10-10 07:23:26 <BlueMatt> the "fuck it, merge it" approach
560 2014-10-10 07:23:32 <BlueMatt> at least its better than "fuck it, ship it"
561 2014-10-10 07:24:20 cbeams has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
562 2014-10-10 07:24:57 <wumpus> well I'm going to test it then...
563 2014-10-10 07:25:17 kgk_ has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
564 2014-10-10 07:25:23 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell cfields do you know if travis runs its arm tests on an actual arm box, or in an emulator?
565 2014-10-10 07:25:24 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
566 2014-10-10 07:25:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: it does not run tests, just compiles
567 2014-10-10 07:25:38 * Luke-Jr thinks it is logical for validateaddress to give scriptPubKey, but no strong opinion
568 2014-10-10 07:25:43 <wumpus> IIRC travis doesn't run arm tests, it just does a compile for that platform
569 2014-10-10 07:25:57 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell cfields if its an actual arm box, we really should be running tests (maybe without comparison tool) as arm has flushed out bugs in the past
570 2014-10-10 07:25:58 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
571 2014-10-10 07:26:01 <wumpus> tests are executed for x86 linux 32/64 and win 32/64
572 2014-10-10 07:26:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: I know :p
573 2014-10-10 07:26:09 <wumpus> (latter using wine)
574 2014-10-10 07:26:29 <wumpus> BlueMatt: then why do you ask?
575 2014-10-10 07:26:35 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if we should pass -frandom-seed differently to each x86-64 build
576 2014-10-10 07:26:45 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I asked if its running in physical arm hardware or an emulator
577 2014-10-10 07:26:52 <sipa> neither
578 2014-10-10 07:26:55 <wumpus> BlueMatt: it's doing a cross compile
579 2014-10-10 07:26:59 <BlueMatt> oh, it just compiles it?
580 2014-10-10 07:27:00 <BlueMatt> damn
581 2014-10-10 07:27:01 <BlueMatt> oh well
582 2014-10-10 07:27:02 <Luke-Jr> an earlier version of my policy PR actually failed only when built with some random seeds
583 2014-10-10 07:27:03 <Luke-Jr> :|
584 2014-10-10 07:27:04 <wumpus> yes, as I said
585 2014-10-10 07:27:10 <sipa> and i said :)
586 2014-10-10 07:27:18 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: Travis only supports x86-64 Ubuntu :/
587 2014-10-10 07:27:20 <BlueMatt> well I didnt read either right :p
588 2014-10-10 07:27:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: wut?! frandom-seed shouldn't make any difference
589 2014-10-10 07:27:29 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: initialisation order
590 2014-10-10 07:27:42 <Luke-Jr> I was using Params() in a global var initialiser
591 2014-10-10 07:27:47 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell cfields as $(EVERYONE) points out, nvm
592 2014-10-10 07:27:47 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
593 2014-10-10 07:27:58 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: whoa, don't do that
594 2014-10-10 07:28:07 RBecker has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
595 2014-10-10 07:28:12 <Luke-Jr> yeah, it's fixed now.. but might be good to have Travis exercise looking for those
596 2014-10-10 07:28:12 <wumpus> if possible please don't use global var initializers/destructors at all
597 2014-10-10 07:28:34 <sipa> let's use the git commit as random seed
598 2014-10-10 07:28:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ⦠someone will grind the commit until Travis passes it :P
599 2014-10-10 07:29:01 <sipa> so we'll see consistent failure in unrelated commits when someone messes with initialization order :p
600 2014-10-10 07:30:17 <gmaxwell> oops. hm. seems to found a weird bug
601 2014-10-10 07:30:21 <gmaxwell> 2014-10-10 07:21:35 Error: Incorrect or no genesis block found. Wrong datadir for network?
602 2014-10-10 07:30:39 weilu has joined
603 2014-10-10 07:31:02 <sipa> gmaxwell: gah, i fixed bugs causing that a couple of times
604 2014-10-10 07:31:05 <wumpus> how did you get that?
605 2014-10-10 07:31:10 justanotheruser is now known as sama
606 2014-10-10 07:31:27 <gmaxwell> I was trying to torture 4988 but it seems the node I was testing on didn't have it applied.
607 2014-10-10 07:31:39 sama is now known as justanotheruser
608 2014-10-10 07:32:08 <gmaxwell> I started a IBD on a node with no state. Shut the node down (with a polite ctrl-c to bitcoind). deleted the chainstate, and restarted.
609 2014-10-10 07:32:23 <gmaxwell> it was as far as 2014-10-10 07:19:45 LoadBlockIndexDB(): last block file info: CBlockFileInfo(blocks=14943, size=3457320, heights=0...14942, time=2009-01-03...2009-05-18)
610 2014-10-10 07:32:43 justanotheruser is now known as day
611 2014-10-10 07:32:46 <gmaxwell> I see the genesis block at the start of the first block file.
612 2014-10-10 07:33:01 day is now known as justanotheruser
613 2014-10-10 07:33:44 amtri has joined
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615 2014-10-10 07:34:48 cbeams has joined
616 2014-10-10 07:37:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: in any case, what I wnated to test about 4988, is that on the first start it ends up deferencing [0] in the vector with nothing else there and printing:
617 2014-10-10 07:37:53 <gmaxwell> 2014-10-10 07:28:59 LoadBlockIndexDB(): last block file info: CBlockFileInfo(blocks=0, size=0, heights=0...0, time=1970-01-01...1970-01-01)
618 2014-10-10 07:38:08 <gmaxwell> which is a bit weird.
619 2014-10-10 07:39:57 Grouver has joined
620 2014-10-10 07:40:23 <gmaxwell> anycase, the procedure I gave there is a 2/2 reproduction for me on top of the tree here which I think is a couple days ago plus the do not keep fully spent but unwritten ccoins entries code.
621 2014-10-10 07:42:29 zeroc00l has joined
622 2014-10-10 07:42:47 <wumpus> does simply deleting the chainstate imply -reindex?
623 2014-10-10 07:43:12 rightrudder has quit (Quit: rightrudder)
624 2014-10-10 07:43:15 RBecker has joined
625 2014-10-10 07:43:33 ThomasV has joined
626 2014-10-10 07:43:54 <wumpus> what is *supposed* to happen if you delete the chainstate and restart?
627 2014-10-10 07:44:52 chaosagent has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
628 2014-10-10 07:45:17 benrcole has joined
629 2014-10-10 07:45:27 <wumpus> anyhow: I can reproduce it too "Error: Incorrect or no genesis block found. Wrong datadir for network?". Goes away when providing -reindex.
630 2014-10-10 07:46:22 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we used to just rebuild it.
631 2014-10-10 07:46:42 <gmaxwell> (and maybe still do under some conditions)
632 2014-10-10 07:46:47 <wumpus> I think it's pretty much an error if files are simply missing
633 2014-10-10 07:47:03 <wumpus> it does log an unsensible error message, agreed
634 2014-10-10 07:48:08 <gmaxwell> wumpus: not sure why we would have stopped just auto rebuidling it though, which was the intentional behavior before.
635 2014-10-10 07:48:47 <wumpus> probably because no one is testing that behavior, because people don't even know it existed? :p
636 2014-10-10 07:50:16 <wumpus> I'm fine with bringing it back ofcourse
637 2014-10-10 07:50:20 <gmaxwell> hah. dunno I think we broke it recently. I test it... (it's how I hit it here, whenever I delete the blocks directory I usually delete chainstate first and then restart)
638 2014-10-10 07:51:06 <gmaxwell> there was some test case when ultraprune was first developed where testing that way was super helpful. probably not that important but a little dumb setup robustness helps.
639 2014-10-10 07:51:14 <gmaxwell> I assume pieter is off fixing it.
640 2014-10-10 07:51:27 <wumpus> I always give -reindex after deleting the chainstate so didn't notice
641 2014-10-10 07:52:52 won9 has quit (Quit: won9)
642 2014-10-10 07:53:08 <zeroc00l> is luke-jr considered a core dev? im concerned with his attempts to blacklist bitcoin addresses
643 2014-10-10 07:53:21 <Luke-Jr> zeroc00l: trolling is that way ------> ##trollfest
644 2014-10-10 07:53:46 <zeroc00l> ?? its a serious question
645 2014-10-10 07:54:11 <Luke-Jr> zeroc00l: then ask in #bitcoin in a less troll-sounding way
646 2014-10-10 07:54:19 <gwillen> zeroc00l: look, if you're a different person from the last person who was trolling us about this, then please accept my apologies, but this is not the place and it's getting old fast
647 2014-10-10 07:54:27 <wumpus> sigh, bitcoin core is open source and anyone can make changes to it and distribute it
648 2014-10-10 07:55:03 <zeroc00l> Luke-Jr: i'd assume this would be the place for the most accurate question to whether or not you're considered a 'core dev'
649 2014-10-10 07:55:14 <Luke-Jr> zeroc00l: that isn't even a relevant question
650 2014-10-10 07:55:30 <zeroc00l> well, it is.
651 2014-10-10 07:55:31 <gwillen> zeroc00l: please, take this to #bitcoin, this is not appropriate here, final warning
652 2014-10-10 07:55:42 <zeroc00l> alright.
653 2014-10-10 07:55:47 <Luke-Jr> 'core dev' is ambiguous, and you're free to not consider me one if you prefer. Although doing so on the basis on troll rumours is ill-advised.
654 2014-10-10 07:56:05 derbumi has joined
655 2014-10-10 07:56:08 won9 has joined
656 2014-10-10 07:57:11 <wumpus> it's completely ambigious, there is no official 'core dev' status, that's just not how things work... (just like everyone can call themselves linux kernel dev, but some would sound silly)
657 2014-10-10 07:57:47 derbumi has quit (Client Quit)
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661 2014-10-10 08:00:02 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, im gonna start calling myself a protocol dev
662 2014-10-10 08:00:09 <phantomcircuit> just to see if anybody calls me on it
663 2014-10-10 08:00:19 [Derek] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
664 2014-10-10 08:00:24 derbumi has joined
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666 2014-10-10 08:01:01 [Derek] has joined
667 2014-10-10 08:01:10 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: last conference I was at I decided to pick a title that surely wouldn't exagerate anything: https://twitter.com/victoriavaneyk/status/519304533394993152
668 2014-10-10 08:01:20 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
669 2014-10-10 08:01:52 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
670 2014-10-10 08:02:05 ak_ has joined
671 2014-10-10 08:02:16 t7 has joined
672 2014-10-10 08:02:52 <zeroc00l> Is luke-jr a sociopath? The top post on reddit is about his blacklists, and he says 'only the minority is complaining'. I'm seriously wondering if he has some sort of mental disorder (like mark karpeles)? 90% have upvoted that reddit post, and said they don't want his patch as default, and he's saying their opinions don't matter. Is this guy serious? Why don't any of you core devs make your opinions heard? Excuse me while
673 2014-10-10 08:03:13 <gwillen> Thaaat's quite enough.
674 2014-10-10 08:03:46 <petertodd> gwillen: New rule: you must pay 1mBTC per #bitcoin-dev /join
675 2014-10-10 08:04:06 <Luke-Jr> lol
676 2014-10-10 08:05:26 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, ahahs
677 2014-10-10 08:05:30 <phantomcircuit> nice
678 2014-10-10 08:05:44 <btcdrak> :-P
679 2014-10-10 08:06:10 <gwillen> this is the SomethingAwful school of discourse? ;-)
680 2014-10-10 08:06:20 <gwillen> (they charge what, $5 per account / removal of ban?)
681 2014-10-10 08:07:18 tarantillo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
682 2014-10-10 08:07:36 tarantillo_ has joined
683 2014-10-10 08:07:44 <petertodd> gwillen: haha, yeah they do - mircea popescu had me buy him SomethingAwful passes with my credit card a few times so he could troll there
684 2014-10-10 08:07:51 <wumpus> its an interesting business model, but IMO it wouldn't filter in the right way, you'd get only people that want to pay to make their opinion/ranting heard :-)
685 2014-10-10 08:08:07 <gwillen> petertodd: ... the number of things wrong in that sentence
686 2014-10-10 08:08:08 <btcdrak> pay per word :-P
687 2014-10-10 08:09:01 <gmaxwell> I wish witcoin had survived.
688 2014-10-10 08:09:20 khert_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
689 2014-10-10 08:09:28 <gmaxwell> It did neat stuff along that space. maybe all stupid but it was an interesting expirement.
690 2014-10-10 08:09:35 <gmaxwell> (failed for reasons unrelated to the featureset)
691 2014-10-10 08:10:31 <gmaxwell> For those who weren't bitcoin users in 2010 / early 2011 witcoin was a reddit clone/fork where you paid micropayments (internally banked) to post.. but then got them back via upvotes and other such mechenisms, with varrious flow through paths and such.
692 2014-10-10 08:10:46 derbumi has quit (Quit: derbumi)
693 2014-10-10 08:12:04 W0rmDr1nk has joined
694 2014-10-10 08:12:07 JackH has joined
695 2014-10-10 08:12:12 <wumpus> that does sound somewhat interesting; why did it fail?
696 2014-10-10 08:13:49 JackH has quit (Client Quit)
697 2014-10-10 08:14:06 rubensayshi has joined
698 2014-10-10 08:14:32 <t7> $5 says somebody took the money and ran
699 2014-10-10 08:14:43 <gmaxwell> I believe the operator lost interest... its bitcoind would crash and wouldn't get fixed for days.. eventually the server had some issue and they couldn't be bothered to bring it back up. Vanished off with some small amount of coin from people too.
700 2014-10-10 08:14:44 <t7> seems to be a running theme with any bitcoin business venture
701 2014-10-10 08:14:49 <gmaxwell> t7: you get $2.50
702 2014-10-10 08:15:00 derbumi has joined
703 2014-10-10 08:15:05 <gmaxwell> No one complained about losing more than a bitcent or so though.
704 2014-10-10 08:15:33 <gmaxwell> It just seemed to not be hugely taking off, and using more maintance time then the people running it had patience for afaict.
705 2014-10-10 08:16:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, only one person was running it
706 2014-10-10 08:16:34 <t7> has anyone in here written a service using the wallet API from blockchain.info or similar ? seems like a really nice and easy way to do it
707 2014-10-10 08:16:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sounds like they would have had more success making it a fully decentralized app, if only because of the amount of vigorous self-referential discussion there could have been had by dozens of nerds writing the app itself
708 2014-10-10 08:16:36 <phantomcircuit> and he had to stop operating it for other reasons than available time
709 2014-10-10 08:16:44 <wumpus> right, that's what I'd be afraid of too with an internet community that would cost money to join... I'm sure you can get people to join, but it will never take off like the free-(first) sites
710 2014-10-10 08:17:36 justanotheruser is now known as animerakiza
711 2014-10-10 08:17:39 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it was sort of neat in that writing popular posts could be profitable (though it was all very small amounts)... perhaps awful and weirdly distorting too, but it didn't get big enough to know for sure.
712 2014-10-10 08:17:46 animerakiza is now known as justanotheruser
713 2014-10-10 08:18:46 <gmaxwell> (a lot of it was setup so the funds went to charity after circulating around between users too, which may have made the fees more tolerable to some)
714 2014-10-10 08:18:48 <wumpus> gmaxwell: having it actually cost something to upvote is interesting, it makes people more careful with dealing out their upvotes
715 2014-10-10 08:20:21 qualiabyte_ has joined
716 2014-10-10 08:20:37 qualiabyte has quit (Quit: Leaving)
717 2014-10-10 08:21:17 qualiabyte_ is now known as qualiabyte
718 2014-10-10 08:22:58 <midnightmagic> I withdrew the 10 or so bitcoins that the owner of the witcoin gifted me with to spread into the stories that I never ended up doing, well before it disappeared.
719 2014-10-10 08:23:32 <midnightmagic> i was one of its first users.
720 2014-10-10 08:25:47 JackH has joined
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722 2014-10-10 08:31:20 coinheavy has quit ()
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725 2014-10-10 08:32:03 <bitnumus> Lukejr go fuck yourself
726 2014-10-10 08:32:07 webdeli has joined
727 2014-10-10 08:32:32 <bitnumus> Xiando found your gentoo patch about 5days ago but I didn't believe you would do that
728 2014-10-10 08:32:36 <bitnumus> You are scum.
729 2014-10-10 08:33:14 <xiando> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524512
730 2014-10-10 08:33:21 <wumpus> not here bitnumus
731 2014-10-10 08:33:26 <bitnumus> O hi xiando
732 2014-10-10 08:33:27 <bitnumus> Lol
733 2014-10-10 08:33:50 <bitnumus> Sorry wumpus on tablet and confirmation just riled me.
734 2014-10-10 08:34:37 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
735 2014-10-10 08:35:43 timothy has joined
736 2014-10-10 08:36:29 <justanotheruser> !ops bitnumus harassing Luke-Jr for making scalability improvements to bitcoin
737 2014-10-10 08:37:30 <bitnumus> Hoho
738 2014-10-10 08:38:27 <bitnumus> !ops justanotheruser false reporting for having an opinion on open source software
739 2014-10-10 08:38:59 won9 has joined
740 2014-10-10 08:39:45 <justanotheruser> bitnumus: telling someone to go fuck themselves for making a change which is optional use isn't an opinion on open source software. "I disagree with the use of your fork" is an opinion on software.
741 2014-10-10 08:40:15 webdeli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
742 2014-10-10 08:40:29 <t7> wtf gentoo bitcoin ignores satoshi dice?
743 2014-10-10 08:41:17 <bitnumus> t7 apparently its fine, we just have to disagree with the fork
744 2014-10-10 08:41:35 <t7> what is the reasoning ?
745 2014-10-10 08:41:40 <bitnumus> Justanotheruser you are hilarious, this making it into a large distro is a joke
746 2014-10-10 08:41:48 benten has joined
747 2014-10-10 08:41:56 <bitnumus> T7 luke-jr
748 2014-10-10 08:41:59 <wumpus> then complain at your distribution, not here
749 2014-10-10 08:42:02 <justanotheruser> bitnumus: take it up in #gentoo-dev.
750 2014-10-10 08:42:26 <justanotheruser> luke-jr hasn't made any changes to bitcoin itself in that change
751 2014-10-10 08:42:34 <bitnumus> O yea because every user of Bitcoin will know about this and how things work
752 2014-10-10 08:42:45 <bitnumus> That's really catering for the end user
753 2014-10-10 08:42:48 <bitnumus> Cmon guys
754 2014-10-10 08:43:18 <justanotheruser> bitnumus: bitcoin already has spam prevention. This is just a filter that catches slightly more spam
755 2014-10-10 08:43:22 <t7> i think Luke-Jr is wrong
756 2014-10-10 08:43:58 <wumpus> it's open source software, so people are free to make changes to it and redistribute it, there's nothing that can (or should) be done against that... if you don't agree with a change that your specific distribution makes by default, you need to complain at them
757 2014-10-10 08:44:01 <Luke-Jr> t7: then you can turn it off, it's optional
758 2014-10-10 08:44:08 <t7> it should be opt in
759 2014-10-10 08:44:13 <t7> imho
760 2014-10-10 08:44:39 <Luke-Jr> t7: your opinion doesn't matter unless you at least use Gentoo. do you use Gentoo? answer in #bitcoin, because this is off-topic here
761 2014-10-10 08:44:43 <bitnumus> Wumpus I get it, complain to distro. But do you think that's fair on unsuspecting users who expect to be using master?
762 2014-10-10 08:44:58 <bitnumus> This isn't 2010-11 anymore is it
763 2014-10-10 08:45:06 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: if they expected to get master, they should have built without "ljr"; #bitcoin
764 2014-10-10 08:45:09 <bitnumus> There are dumbass users now, and you should be thinking about them
765 2014-10-10 08:45:13 <Luke-Jr> not using Gentoo
766 2014-10-10 08:45:33 <bitnumus> Xiando chime in, why did you build with this flag?
767 2014-10-10 08:45:52 <bitnumus> Did you know?
768 2014-10-10 08:45:52 <t7> bitnumus: you need to phrase your arguments differently :P
769 2014-10-10 08:46:04 <t7> also dont get emotional
770 2014-10-10 08:46:12 <wumpus> bitnumus: yes, confusing defaults can be confusing... but it just doesn't help anyone to talk about that here, this channel is supposed to be about development
771 2014-10-10 08:46:24 <bitnumus> This isn't the best time for debate I'm on tablet and ranting, sorry for that, maybe later
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781 2014-10-10 09:03:04 <rodarmor> I have a technical question about the address reuse issue: If transactions that reuse addresses are not relayed by miners or otherwise disincentivized, wonât a trivial work around be to use something like stealth addresses but with the nonce publically embedded in transaction?
782 2014-10-10 09:03:18 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
783 2014-10-10 09:03:45 <aschildbach_> I anyone willing to support me debugging a new suspected case of transaction malleability with me?
784 2014-10-10 09:04:31 <rodarmor> Funds can still only be spent by the person who knows the stealth address secret, but a trivial anti-reuse patch will be defeated, and a more complex one will have to be devised. A government could require that such âpseudo stealthâ addresses be mandator.
785 2014-10-10 09:04:43 <rodarmor> *mandatory
786 2014-10-10 09:05:37 <stonecoldpat> rodarmor: I dont think this is the best place to discuss it, but 'stealth addresses' isnt exactly reusing the same address, (the address will be different each time, although vaguely linked to the previous one), someone going through that much effort might as well just follow standard practice
787 2014-10-10 09:06:01 <gmaxwell> aschildbach_: do you have the transaction(s) to decode?
788 2014-10-10 09:06:20 <rodarmor> Thanks, stonecoldpat. Would it be better to bring up on #bitcoin-wizards or just #bitcoin?
789 2014-10-10 09:06:30 <gmaxwell> rodarmor: in general easily blockable behavior is a (currently minor) systemic risk for the ecosystem... though that exists on a continium.
790 2014-10-10 09:06:30 <aschildbach_> gmaxwell: First, here are the txns in biteasy: https://www.biteasy.com/blockchain/transactions/2c6ce34773b1be8559218cfd1050266c2626310ec6f4c6481f1641b65818e2d4
791 2014-10-10 09:06:31 <aschildbach_> https://www.biteasy.com/blockchain/transactions/443fe1f1347d7dde93012406cf9108f67f344b12cc6d7135e855f3bb62e377e3
792 2014-10-10 09:06:45 <aschildbach_> The second one didn't make it to the blockchain
793 2014-10-10 09:07:17 qualiabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
794 2014-10-10 09:07:26 <rodarmor> gmaxwell: Sorry, can you clarify, I donât think I understood what you meant.
795 2014-10-10 09:07:35 TigerbotHesh has joined
796 2014-10-10 09:07:46 jtimon has joined
797 2014-10-10 09:08:01 <aschildbach_> gmaxwell: The first input script is a little bit different
798 2014-10-10 09:08:11 <sipa> aschildbach_: looks like standard low/high s malleability
799 2014-10-10 09:08:40 <stonecoldpat> aschildbach_: as sipa said, the s component of the siganture was changed
800 2014-10-10 09:08:51 <sipa> bip62 malleability #5
801 2014-10-10 09:09:16 <aschildbach_> Ok good to know thanks. Seems we need to harden bitcoinj against this.
802 2014-10-10 09:09:26 <sipa> you can't
803 2014-10-10 09:09:46 <aschildbach_> Why?
804 2014-10-10 09:09:48 siddh has quit (Quit: siddh)
805 2014-10-10 09:09:51 <sipa> bip62 will enable protecting against that, but will require a softfork
806 2014-10-10 09:10:00 <sipa> and wallets opting in to use it
807 2014-10-10 09:11:19 <sipa> both forms (low s or high s) are valid and in use by wallets, so you can't control which one will get mined
808 2014-10-10 09:11:23 <gmaxwell> aschildbach_: because most existing wallets (except bitcoin core and perhaps a few other exceptions) randomly create both of the two possible states.
809 2014-10-10 09:11:47 <sipa> bitcoinj actually does create low s signatures, but that doesn't make high s ones invalid
810 2014-10-10 09:12:03 <gmaxwell> part of BIP62 is declaring for v3 transactions that only one of the two will be valid.
811 2014-10-10 09:12:12 <aschildbach_> Ah so we cannot just reject pending txns of one type.
812 2014-10-10 09:12:13 derbumi has quit (Quit: derbumi)
813 2014-10-10 09:12:32 <gmaxwell> aschildbach_: right.
814 2014-10-10 09:12:43 <aschildbach_> Too bad.
815 2014-10-10 09:13:56 <aschildbach_> I hope this isn't being "exploited" in a larger scale. It's confusing to users.
816 2014-10-10 09:14:14 <petertodd> aschildbach_: speaking of, are you actively trying to reject pending txns right now? For instance I noticed that non-std redeemScripts now relayed by git HEAD show up in Bitcoin Wallet for Android with no special comments, yet perfectly valid nLockTime-using txs still have a warning that they're non-standard
817 2014-10-10 09:14:22 <sipa> it seems most interest in the solution (bip62) died very quickly together with mtgox...
818 2014-10-10 09:15:38 <gmaxwell> well wider interest than just us. It's still important (but not for any of the reason people were previously interested in it...)
819 2014-10-10 09:15:42 <aschildbach_> petertodd: We're checking pending txns for some criteria (obviously not all from bip62 for example) and if one of these fails the pending tx will not be allowed into the wallet. Of course if it is mined it will be allowed.
820 2014-10-10 09:16:03 <petertodd> aschildbach_: right, well, what's the attack you're actually worried about?
821 2014-10-10 09:16:08 <sipa> aschildbach_: if it conflicts with a transaction you created yourself you can always reject it (until it onfirms)
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823 2014-10-10 09:16:59 <aschildbach_> petertodd: Someone playing fun with malleated transactions. Like last year.
824 2014-10-10 09:17:32 <aschildbach_> sipa: In this case, the tx was from bitcoin core 0.9.1 to Bitcoin Wallet, but someone malleated the transaction so he received it twice.
825 2014-10-10 09:17:56 <petertodd> aschildbach_: if I were you, I'd just find a better way to display equivalent but txid-malleated transactions to the user
826 2014-10-10 09:18:24 <petertodd> aschildbach_: if you receive a second transaction that replaces the first and still pays you, why even make it a UI visible thing?
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828 2014-10-10 09:18:58 <aschildbach_> petertodd: Yes I agree. Need to talk with Mike about this again. I remember there was some problem with that approach, maybe because of SPV makes it difficultâ¦
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831 2014-10-10 09:20:19 <aschildbach_> petertodd: Well bitcoinj uses the hash as the primary key for txns. Speaking of which, what's the status of this "malleability-hardened transaction id standard"?
832 2014-10-10 09:20:23 <stonecoldpat> aschildbach_: it might not get forwarded to an SPV client by its peers?
833 2014-10-10 09:20:55 <aschildbach_> stonecoldpat: In this case it did. If it wasn't, it would not be a UI problem because it would show up only once.
834 2014-10-10 09:22:50 <petertodd> aschildbach_: what do you mean by 'primary key'?
835 2014-10-10 09:23:20 <petertodd> aschildbach_: (I mean, how do you use that primary key in the context of bitcoinj?)
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837 2014-10-10 09:24:05 <sipa> aschildbach_: in any case, it should be easy enough to detect that two transactions in your wallet spend the same output, so they can't be both valid
838 2014-10-10 09:24:20 <gmaxwell> aschildbach_: there is no sense in a "malleability-hardened transaction id standard" except for creating vulnerabilities by creating mismastched expectations, but software can detect when two transactions are equal and handle it.
839 2014-10-10 09:24:22 <sipa> or at least not both should be counted for balance
840 2014-10-10 09:24:39 <wumpus> aschildbach_: there is no progress on that 'standard' because what is a good transaction identifier depends strongly on the use case
841 2014-10-10 09:24:42 <gmaxwell> (there is no such ID possible which actually is robust against equivilents for all transaction types)
842 2014-10-10 09:25:05 <aschildbach_> Ok so it was cancelled. Good to know.
843 2014-10-10 09:25:22 <aschildbach_> (I understand the problem of such a standard)
844 2014-10-10 09:25:43 <petertodd> aschildbach_: SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY|NONE|SINGLE of course throw malleability considerations out of the door, and using ANYONECANPAY for all transactions has some advantages when it comes to fees, among other things
845 2014-10-10 09:26:33 <aschildbach_> petertodd: I guess its the issue you'd expect. Bitcoinj stored transactions in Maps with their txhash as a key.
846 2014-10-10 09:26:57 <wumpus> yes, looking at whether transactions spend the same outputs would be the way to go
847 2014-10-10 09:27:19 <aschildbach_> I agree it should check against the existing txns. But as I said something prevents this or there was some other issue. Can't remember. Need to talk to Mike.
848 2014-10-10 09:27:21 <petertodd> aschildbach_: right, which is fine for low level stuff. For UI stuff you probably want to think in terms of what the user sees, and just replace/ignore equivalent transactions.
849 2014-10-10 09:27:22 <wumpus> AFAIK bitcoin core does the same to label 'conflicting' transactions
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851 2014-10-10 09:27:54 <petertodd> aschildbach_: if you need to, have a 'advanced info' window that displays the actual txid(s) that correspond to the same transaction
852 2014-10-10 09:28:15 <petertodd> aschildbach_: note how circle actively makes it impossible to get txids from their website
853 2014-10-10 09:28:16 <wumpus> although ui-wise it may indeed be better to just hide the malleated transaction if it is equivalent otherwise
854 2014-10-10 09:29:54 <aschildbach_> In bitcoinj we're planning to wrap all the transactions/payment requests into another model (codename: WalletTransaction) which would come close to what we'd expect wallets to display. I guess that could handle malleability as well.
855 2014-10-10 09:30:28 <aschildbach_> WalletTransactions would start with a payment request (either created or received) and collect/aggregate all info about that "payment"
856 2014-10-10 09:30:35 <sipa> what do you do when you have 3 transactions A B and C, and A-B conflict, and B-C too?
857 2014-10-10 09:30:48 <petertodd> aschildbach_: if you do that remember that it's perfectly valid to bump fees by double-spending w/ an equivalent transaction
858 2014-10-10 09:31:00 <wumpus> yes, an ui "transaction" is a different animal from a network transaction anyway
859 2014-10-10 09:31:16 <aschildbach_> petertodd: Yes such things could go there too.
860 2014-10-10 09:31:34 <aschildbach_> sipa: question to whom?
861 2014-10-10 09:31:39 <sipa> aschildbach_: to you
862 2014-10-10 09:32:05 <aschildbach_> sipa: Currently the blockchain chooses the winner.
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864 2014-10-10 09:32:16 <sipa> aschildbach_: obviously; but before that?
865 2014-10-10 09:32:30 <aschildbach_> sipa: Before that, you see all three I guess. Although I never tried. I've only seen two.
866 2014-10-10 09:32:45 <sipa> i mean: what do you think it should do
867 2014-10-10 09:32:55 <sipa> you can either count B, or you can count A and C
868 2014-10-10 09:33:13 <sipa> but it's not something easily modelled by aggregating different transactions into payment buckets
869 2014-10-10 09:33:14 <petertodd> aschildbach_: FWIW bc.i regularly shows transactions double-spent by 6+ conflicting transactions
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871 2014-10-10 09:34:22 <aschildbach_> sipa: I don't understand the case. I assume A != C. That means A conflicts C as well.
872 2014-10-10 09:34:38 <sipa> you have two previous outputs x and y
873 2014-10-10 09:34:44 <sipa> a and b spend x
874 2014-10-10 09:34:48 <sipa> b and c spend y
875 2014-10-10 09:35:42 <aschildbach_> Ok that's not malleated, that's a "true" double spend. First comes first served.
876 2014-10-10 09:36:04 <sipa> oh sure, talking about how to deal with conflicts in general here
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878 2014-10-10 09:37:11 <aschildbach_> The first one is most likely to confirm, so I guess I'd expect that to show and the others marked as dead or not shown at all.
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881 2014-10-10 09:37:57 <aschildbach_> That means if first one is A, B would be dead but C would be shown
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883 2014-10-10 09:38:25 <sipa> ok
884 2014-10-10 09:38:27 <sipa> makes sense
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887 2014-10-10 09:39:53 <petertodd> aschildbach_: btw, does android wallet use the getmempool P2P thing to get mempools of newly connected peers?
888 2014-10-10 09:40:45 <aschildbach_> petertodd: I think yes. Newly connected peers are given a bloom filter and then the mempool is fetched.
889 2014-10-10 09:40:57 <petertodd> aschildbach_: thanks
890 2014-10-10 09:41:10 <aschildbach_> Why do you ask?
891 2014-10-10 09:41:43 <petertodd> aschildbach_: oh, I was just curious - I noticed it took a minute or so for the non-std redeemScript tx to show up, which I assumed was it just connecting to a 0.9.99 peer after the initial propagation
892 2014-10-10 09:42:10 <petertodd> aschildbach_: (bc.i now propagates non-std redeemScripts so getting them to the few git HEAD nodes out there is doable)
893 2014-10-10 09:43:03 derbumi has joined
894 2014-10-10 09:43:10 <petertodd> aschildbach_: example: https://blockchain.info/tx/3b6ffb563fb32b9782cc183acd8694b74cee483f2443fe86c550de102c8972ae
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912 2014-10-10 10:09:57 <nullnull> what a shit-show on /r/bitcoin tonight over luke-jr's gentoo patch... I guess we all know what would happen if master branch ever had a blacklist merged into it
913 2014-10-10 10:11:22 <moa> what a shit thing to do
914 2014-10-10 10:12:03 <petertodd> nullnull, moa: take it to #bitcoin, or reddit, or twitter...
915 2014-10-10 10:12:36 <moa> seems it is relevant to dev behaviour no?
916 2014-10-10 10:13:00 <wumpus> sigh, take this somewhere else, last warning...
917 2014-10-10 10:13:08 <petertodd> moa: if bitcoin is dependent on individual devs being trustworthy people, we're in big trouble
918 2014-10-10 10:13:13 <nullnull> petertodd: fair enough. just thought it was a good example of what we can expect to see from the community anytime there is talks of blacklists or stopping fungibility of bitcoin
919 2014-10-10 10:13:29 <petertodd> nullnull: yup, and that's *not* a useful dev discussion
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921 2014-10-10 10:17:30 <moa> putting aside this particular instance, it has always troubled me what checks and balances are in place for getting deterministically built binaries into the linux repos?
922 2014-10-10 10:17:58 <petertodd> moa: that's a big issue beyond just bitcoin!
923 2014-10-10 10:18:20 <moa> well it is particularly poignant for bitcoin ...
924 2014-10-10 10:18:53 <petertodd> moa: note that in many cases having solid signing practices for bitcoin just means the attackers will backdoor a different package :(
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926 2014-10-10 10:19:15 <nullnull> i'd agree. bitcoin is not like other software -- billions of dollars are at stake
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928 2014-10-10 10:19:19 <wumpus> I don't think any distribution does anything specific for bitcoin in that case
929 2014-10-10 10:19:33 <gmaxwell> linux distro enviroments are generally pretty deeply incompatible with builds being determinstic in any useful sense.
930 2014-10-10 10:19:56 <wumpus> in case of doubt just use the executables from bitcoin.org (do check the gpg signing!), or better, build it yourself from git
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933 2014-10-10 10:20:32 <moa> i guess rogue repo package maintainers are a fact of life in bitcoin then ...
934 2014-10-10 10:20:35 <gmaxwell> and also check the gpg sigs on git
935 2014-10-10 10:20:57 <wumpus> yes, for ex. check that the tag you're building from is signed
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937 2014-10-10 10:23:00 <Zarutian> is this the luke-jr crap?
938 2014-10-10 10:23:21 <moa> so what would be the response of Luke-Jrhad inserted wallet stealing software?
939 2014-10-10 10:23:29 <moa> s/of/if
940 2014-10-10 10:23:40 <wumpus> moa: calling the police?
941 2014-10-10 10:23:45 <nullnull> moa: the post on reddit would have 3000 upvotes instead of 300
942 2014-10-10 10:24:26 <moa> i'm trying to see if there is some procedure in place here ...
943 2014-10-10 10:24:36 <Zarutian> moa: something like traceback and hardware intrusion into his computers. Spefically with hardreset tool like a sledgehammer.
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945 2014-10-10 10:24:55 <wumpus> no, there is no procedure in place *here*, you need to address this with your distribution's maintainers
946 2014-10-10 10:24:59 <Zarutian> moa: point being: dont bug hackers.
947 2014-10-10 10:25:31 <moa> guess we'll approach this later when the emotions have died down
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949 2014-10-10 10:25:54 <nullnull> it's an interesting argument though: 'this patch sends all btc in your wallet to 1Lukejr12345... this is not the default behavior of the master branch so if you don't like this patch please disable it with a USE flag. Thanks'
950 2014-10-10 10:26:06 <Zarutian> moa: I would rather that his patches being turned of by default.
951 2014-10-10 10:26:12 <gmaxwell> nullnull: please take this elsewhere.
952 2014-10-10 10:26:41 <wumpus> I'm sure distributions have a policy on what changes to upstream packages are allowed, and which not, if not, this is perfectly allowed and you should be spending your time more constructively... in any case it makes no sense to rant about it here, so please take it somewhre else
953 2014-10-10 10:26:42 <nullnull> gmaxwell: sure... just wanted to make sure u guys have seen the shit-storm ;)
954 2014-10-10 10:27:10 <Zarutian> while I still recall. There is nothing in scripts that prevents hashing the recpiant address with a salt?
955 2014-10-10 10:27:30 <petertodd> Zarutian: heard of stealth addresses?
956 2014-10-10 10:28:09 <Zarutian> petertodd: no. Are they like zerocoin stuff? Or something like the salted addresses I mentioned?
957 2014-10-10 10:28:22 weilu has joined
958 2014-10-10 10:28:25 <petertodd> Zarutian: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/20701/what-is-a-stealth-address
959 2014-10-10 10:29:07 <petertodd> Zarutian: sites like satoshi dice could easily use them, and you can derive a refund address from the ephemeral pubkey if you really want to
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963 2014-10-10 10:29:37 <petertodd> Zarutian: probably a crazy idea, but a good example of how you just don't need to be re-using addresses and making you vulnerable to censorship in the first place
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965 2014-10-10 10:30:01 <Zarutian> petertodd: noice.
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1033 2014-10-10 12:19:20 <Happzz> (just brainstorming)
1034 2014-10-10 12:19:27 <Happzz> i think there's a fuck with the fee-calculation
1035 2014-10-10 12:20:21 <Happzz> the fact you can't spend "dust" (or almost-dust), i.e. inputs smaller than the tx fee, makes people use "tx-free" inputs along with the "dust"
1036 2014-10-10 12:20:32 <Happzz> hence making the tx bigger than it shouldve been to begin with
1037 2014-10-10 12:20:43 <Happzz> while essentially costing less to send
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1041 2014-10-10 12:25:04 <gmaxwell> I can't follow you.
1042 2014-10-10 12:25:20 <gmaxwell> You can spend dust fine, there is no inhabition against spending it.
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1045 2014-10-10 12:26:14 <gmaxwell> Having bigger transactions isn't harmful, the coins need to get spent eventually, and earlier is generally better. Major resource of concern is the UTXO set since its what must be avilable to validate against.
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1049 2014-10-10 12:26:54 <Happzz> gmaxwell so what's the point of the fee-by-kb concept?
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1052 2014-10-10 12:28:06 <Happzz> i mean, fee-by-kb means that the "community" would like as smaller txs as possible
1053 2014-10-10 12:28:41 <gmaxwell> Happzz: it mapps to the limited space in blocks. But making a larger transaction now if its just data you would have used in the future doesn't increase the total (and probably decreases your cost, since likely there will be more space competition in the future)
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1055 2014-10-10 12:29:13 <Happzz> i think i lost you here
1056 2014-10-10 12:29:16 <gmaxwell> Happzz: it's just the rational strategy miners should use when filling blocks. Picking by highest fee per kb is the revenue maximizing model for miners. Thats all.
1057 2014-10-10 12:29:19 <gmaxwell> clearly.
1058 2014-10-10 12:29:30 <gmaxwell> go ask in bitcoin
1059 2014-10-10 12:29:33 * gmaxwell bed&
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1083 2014-10-10 12:59:00 <michagogo> Hm, idea as an alternative to shrinkdebuglog: gzipdebuglog
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1088 2014-10-10 13:12:29 <wumpus> you can already use your own log rotation policies, like many daemons bitcoind will reopen the debug log on SIGHUP
1089 2014-10-10 13:12:43 <wumpus> so just rename the logfile, then call SIGHUP, then zip it up...
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1091 2014-10-10 13:13:21 <wumpus> there is software that can do this for you if you don't want to write your own scripts
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1105 2014-10-10 13:33:38 <wumpus> for ex. logrotate(8)
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1141 2014-10-10 14:07:12 <Mr_V> does bitcoin core implement HD keys and does it use them as default?
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1146 2014-10-10 14:10:54 <helo> no
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1152 2014-10-10 14:13:53 <michagogo> wumpus: ah, cool, thanks
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1196 2014-10-10 14:42:12 <jgarzik> so
1197 2014-10-10 14:42:17 <jgarzik> this is a bit -dev and a bit -wizards
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1199 2014-10-10 14:42:51 <jgarzik> I was pondering an extension that specifies an output is locked until a certain time/height
1200 2014-10-10 14:42:55 <jgarzik> nLockTimeOut
1201 2014-10-10 14:43:11 <jgarzik> can LOCKTIMEVERIFY proposal do the same thing?
1202 2014-10-10 14:43:20 <jgarzik> goal: output cannot be spent until X in the future
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1206 2014-10-10 14:48:54 <goykasi1> @jgarzik: isnt that what: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg06250.html would basically do?
1207 2014-10-10 14:49:07 <goykasi1> "http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net&q=subject:%22%5BBitcoin-development%5D+%5BBIP+draft%5D+CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY+-+Prevent+a+txout+from+being+spent+until+an+expiration+time%22"
1208 2014-10-10 14:49:51 <jgarzik> <jgarzik> can LOCKTIMEVERIFY proposal do the same thing?
1209 2014-10-10 14:49:55 <jgarzik> I guess the answer is "yes"
1210 2014-10-10 14:50:11 <goykasi1> i think its a good idea
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1212 2014-10-10 14:50:29 <goykasi1> i wish i knew the source well enough to contribute to a modification like that
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1216 2014-10-10 14:51:51 <isakyog> ack. i dont remember my identify password
1217 2014-10-10 14:52:36 <isakyog> i think LOCKTIMEVERIFY or some sort future coin release proposal would be very nice
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1240 2014-10-10 15:09:47 <dgenr8> jgarzik: the answer is yes and IMHO the key insight was due to gmaxwell: doing it by requiring use within a tx with an appropriate nlocktime
1241 2014-10-10 15:10:05 <dgenr8> jgarzik: hence avoiding an opcode directly referencing chain height
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1257 2014-10-10 15:41:19 <earlz> I wish people would stop misunderstanding this whole gentoo FUD stuff
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1261 2014-10-10 15:46:29 <jgarzik> earlz, indeed
1262 2014-10-10 15:47:22 <jgarzik> I think a certain segment just enjoys to hate on Luke, and there was quite some trolling and FUD to kick off the whole mess.
1263 2014-10-10 15:47:54 <jgarzik> And Luke being Luke, doesn't necessarily have the greatest PR skills... ;p Though the response that finally came out at the end was reasonable professional, I thought.
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1267 2014-10-10 15:49:29 <Eagle[TM]> Hey at least there was a USE flag
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1270 2014-10-10 15:55:04 <earlz> of course the maintainer of 1 gentoo package completely dictates the direction of bitcoin OF COURSE
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1275 2014-10-10 15:59:57 <Arnavion> So is there an intention to do something like that blacklist in bitcoin?
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1280 2014-10-10 16:09:13 <sipa> Arnavion: no
1281 2014-10-10 16:09:17 <jgarzik> Arnavion, blacklist? no.
1282 2014-10-10 16:09:38 <Arnavion> So just rely on / improve the existing dos-detection code?
1283 2014-10-10 16:09:45 <jgarzik> De-prioritizing heavily reused addresses is fair, IMO. That promotes good behavior.
1284 2014-10-10 16:09:59 <jgarzik> That's also behavior based, and not a targeted list.
1285 2014-10-10 16:10:13 <Arnavion> Yeah
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1349 2014-10-10 17:21:58 <justusranvier> bitcoind won't start if ~/.bitcoin is on a virtio-9p fs
1350 2014-10-10 17:22:14 <justusranvier> I'd be useful if it would.
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1352 2014-10-10 17:24:45 <sipa> why not?
1353 2014-10-10 17:24:56 <sipa> can you investigate because of what problem it bails out?
1354 2014-10-10 17:25:22 <justusranvier> The message is "Error opening block database."
1355 2014-10-10 17:25:35 <sipa> that would be a leveldb problem...
1356 2014-10-10 17:25:54 <justusranvier> I could start over with an empty ~.bitcoin and see exactly what files exist when it bails out
1357 2014-10-10 17:26:26 <justusranvier> The thing is - I have another bitcoind instancerunning where I moved the ~/.bitcoin/blocks directory to 9pfs and it works
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1359 2014-10-10 17:27:02 <justusranvier> Just can't bootstrap a new node that way, either with just blocks or the entire .bitcoin directory on 9p
1360 2014-10-10 17:27:49 <justusranvier> Trying to run bitcoind and armory in seperate virtual machines, while sharing ~/.bitcoin/block through 9p instead of nfs
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1364 2014-10-10 17:30:45 <justusranvier> I see someone else has already encountered this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3641
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1366 2014-10-10 17:32:57 <justusranvier> I wonder why one node works in this configuration and another one doesn't...
1367 2014-10-10 17:35:02 <pigeons> leveldb apparently doesnt work on netbsd either
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1384 2014-10-10 17:51:06 <extor> Evidently no paid captcha site supports keycaptcha. Strange.
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1387 2014-10-10 17:53:43 <sipa> extor: offtopic
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1394 2014-10-10 18:02:37 <extor> there should exist a #bitcoin-dev-offtopic
1395 2014-10-10 18:03:19 <sipa> try #bitcoin-offtopic ?
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1436 2014-10-10 18:45:05 <null_radix> can someone exmplain to me what the usecases for these functions are? https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/include/secp256k1.h#L120-L123
1437 2014-10-10 18:45:38 <null_radix> I know the basics of EC operations and ecdsa.
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1439 2014-10-10 18:46:22 <sipa> null_radix: BIP32 and similar schemes
1440 2014-10-10 18:47:10 <null_radix> oh ok, thanks sipa
1441 2014-10-10 18:47:33 <sipa> i believe bip38 uses the multiplicative one
1442 2014-10-10 18:47:38 <sipa> bip32 uses the additive one
1443 2014-10-10 18:48:49 <null_radix> I wraped the secp256 for node.js and I wasn't sure if i needed to add those functions
1444 2014-10-10 18:48:59 <null_radix> but i guess it would be a good idea
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1452 2014-10-10 18:59:09 <justanotheruser> :q
1453 2014-10-10 19:00:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: i actually remember at some point thinking "this may break that delete chainstate trick", but didn't bother looking into as probably nearly nobody knew about it
1454 2014-10-10 19:04:41 Application has joined
1455 2014-10-10 19:05:07 <gmaxwell> ah, I don't think it's an important thing. Though better error reporting is needed if it isn't fixed.
1456 2014-10-10 19:05:24 <sipa> agree
1457 2014-10-10 19:05:50 <gmaxwell> we've (maybe just me) instructed random users to do that in the past when theirs was corrupted. Perhaps w/ pruning coming in its a less useful trick regardless.
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1459 2014-10-10 19:06:23 <sipa> also, i don't understand why it gives that message
1460 2014-10-10 19:06:24 erasmospunk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1461 2014-10-10 19:06:28 <sipa> so that needs fixing regardless :)
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1465 2014-10-10 19:16:06 <sipa> wumpus: that trick for deleting the chainstate to rebuild it is very useful for benchmarking, as it is done before starting up the node code
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1474 2014-10-10 19:33:05 <earlz> So, is there any documentation on what versions of windows bitcoin-qt should work on?
1475 2014-10-10 19:33:15 <earlz> One of my eccentric friends is trying to run it on Windows 95 lol
1476 2014-10-10 19:34:15 <sipa> iirc 200 or xp
1477 2014-10-10 19:34:18 <sipa> *2000
1478 2014-10-10 19:34:32 <earlz> no NT4? ;)
1479 2014-10-10 19:34:36 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1480 2014-10-10 19:35:00 <earlz> I wonder what it is that actually breaks for older versions.. probably something qt related
1481 2014-10-10 19:35:28 ak_ has joined
1482 2014-10-10 19:35:29 <earlz> Are there any known binaries for ancient versions of bitcoin, like 0.15?
1483 2014-10-10 19:35:34 <earlz> er, 0.1.5
1484 2014-10-10 19:37:02 <sipa> network code has some requirements on a recent network satack
1485 2014-10-10 19:37:13 <sipa> i wasn't even talking about the gui
1486 2014-10-10 19:37:38 <earlz> lol someone should write a DOS SPV wallet
1487 2014-10-10 19:37:57 <sipa> be my guest
1488 2014-10-10 19:37:59 <earlz> I want to run bitcoind on my 286 AT
1489 2014-10-10 19:38:04 erasmospunk has joined
1490 2014-10-10 19:38:21 <earlz> I have a feeling writing bitcoin in 16bit code would be extremely painfukl
1491 2014-10-10 19:38:32 erasmospunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1492 2014-10-10 19:38:37 <sipa> yes
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1498 2014-10-10 19:49:48 <cfields> sipa: would you rather move CScriptID out of script/standard, or leave it there and include standard.* in the consensus lib?
1499 2014-10-10 19:51:06 <sipa> why would w einclude standard.h in consensus?
1500 2014-10-10 19:51:34 <cfields> ...or move CTxOutCompressor out of core
1501 2014-10-10 19:51:52 <sipa> CTxOutCompressor shouldn't be in core
1502 2014-10-10 19:52:06 derbumi has quit (Quit: derbumi)
1503 2014-10-10 19:52:07 <sipa> nor should any of the undo stuff
1504 2014-10-10 19:52:08 bedeho has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1505 2014-10-10 19:52:10 <sipa> or CCoins
1506 2014-10-10 19:52:40 <cfields> ok. CTxOutCompressor is the one causing problems atm, so i'll start there
1507 2014-10-10 19:53:14 <sipa> i guess CTxOutCompressor can move to coins.h, actually
1508 2014-10-10 19:53:19 <sipa> only thr CCoins serializer uses it
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1510 2014-10-10 19:56:32 <cfields> mm, and CTxInUndo
1511 2014-10-10 19:57:06 <sipa> that can go to main
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1514 2014-10-10 19:57:28 <sipa> undo data is specific to validation; it's not a protocol mandated structure, so it doesn't need to be in core
1515 2014-10-10 19:58:01 <cfields> roger
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1518 2014-10-10 20:00:39 <cfields> great, that did it. I think that's everything.
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1520 2014-10-10 20:01:42 <cfields> sipa: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=12eY0uYy
1521 2014-10-10 20:01:47 <cfields> that about what you had in mind?
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1525 2014-10-10 20:03:05 <sipa> sorry, my browser is killing me
1526 2014-10-10 20:03:14 * sipa switches from chromium back to firefox
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1529 2014-10-10 20:03:53 <sipa> it locks up my system for several seconds occasionally, after which it becomes totally unresponsive (and not even killall -KILL chromium-browser kills it...)
1530 2014-10-10 20:04:44 <cfields> odd, pretty much the opposite for me. chromium is buttery smooth, and firefox constantly hangs
1531 2014-10-10 20:05:14 <sipa> that used to be the reason for switching for me too; but this is just unusable
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1533 2014-10-10 20:05:54 <cfields> for the paste above, no external interface is hooked up yet, so there will ofc be an additional cpp for that
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1537 2014-10-10 20:07:50 <cfields> in case it spares you the browser hell, the required sources are: core.cpp hash.cpp keywrapper.cpp pubkey.cpp script/script.cpp script/interpreter.cpp uint256.cpp utilstrencodings.cpp version.cpp $(LIBBITCOIN_CRYPTO)
1538 2014-10-10 20:08:15 <sipa> awesome
1539 2014-10-10 20:08:19 <cfields> just want to be sure we're on the same page before i start bundling it up
1540 2014-10-10 20:08:48 <sipa> i still want to split uint256 up in a headers-only opaque256 and a uint256 that derives from it
1541 2014-10-10 20:09:27 <sipa> and maybe a few things from core can move to main
1542 2014-10-10 20:09:31 <cfields> that sounds helpful
1543 2014-10-10 20:10:06 <cfields> i wondered about doing the same with Hash, making it more generic and moving it into crypto?
1544 2014-10-10 20:10:23 <sipa> yeah
1545 2014-10-10 20:10:39 <sipa> though i like that crypto is mininmal and not dependent on bitcoin stuff
1546 2014-10-10 20:10:45 <sipa> while hash depends on serialize
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1548 2014-10-10 20:11:35 <cfields> right, i figured hash would do actual hashing, then a derived class to handle serializing/usage
1549 2014-10-10 20:11:56 <sipa> well, the actual hashing part can move to crypto i guess
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1552 2014-10-10 20:13:53 <cfields> either way, i'm at a good stopping point now. enough is moved out to fix the initial dependency issues
1553 2014-10-10 20:14:15 <sipa> yes, absolutely
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1555 2014-10-10 20:14:54 <cfields> should i go ahead and PR some of the core class movement? It's not immediately useful, but better than lumping it all together with the boost stuff imo
1556 2014-10-10 20:15:04 <sipa> go ahead
1557 2014-10-10 20:15:15 <sipa> perhaps add it to the existing core dependencies PR?
1558 2014-10-10 20:15:19 <cfields> roger. thanks for all the help.
1559 2014-10-10 20:15:29 <sipa> no, thank you!
1560 2014-10-10 20:15:50 <cfields> i'd prefer to leave that one alone and get it merged. it's painful enough to rebase as-is
1561 2014-10-10 20:15:53 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1562 2014-10-10 20:15:54 <sipa> ok
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1564 2014-10-10 20:16:49 <ajweiss> are you guys looking to merge headers-first soon?
1565 2014-10-10 20:17:16 <ajweiss> i remember seeing some excitement earlier in the week about it being close
1566 2014-10-10 20:17:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: i fixed the deleted-chainstate problem, then tried to benchmark it, noticing that it was just doing a few blocks per second (in the first 1000s of blocks); profiling revealed that it was spending all time in ActivateBestChainStep, building the entire list of 3000000 blocks to connect, and then bailing out after one to release the cs_main lock
1567 2014-10-10 20:17:46 ubuntu__ has joined
1568 2014-10-10 20:18:33 <cfields> haha
1569 2014-10-10 20:18:50 sand3r has joined
1570 2014-10-10 20:18:51 <sand3r> hi
1571 2014-10-10 20:18:54 <sand3r> bitcoind
1572 2014-10-10 20:18:56 <sand3r> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error' what(): locale::facet::_S_create_c_locale name not valid
1573 2014-10-10 20:18:59 <sand3r> Aborted
1574 2014-10-10 20:19:02 <sand3r> how to fix it?
1575 2014-10-10 20:19:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: improved performance for that too, and now at least callgrind (which i know isn't very reliable) says i'm spending 15% of the time in LogPrint...
1576 2014-10-10 20:19:30 <cfields> sand3r: check your LC_ALL
1577 2014-10-10 20:19:40 <cfields> "export LC_ALL=C" or so
1578 2014-10-10 20:19:44 <sand3r> cfields: how?
1579 2014-10-10 20:19:52 <sand3r> how do i do that?
1580 2014-10-10 20:19:54 <cfields> (for a quick test)
1581 2014-10-10 20:20:08 <cfields> sand3r: what OS?
1582 2014-10-10 20:20:15 <sand3r> linux debian
1583 2014-10-10 20:20:34 <sand3r> 7
1584 2014-10-10 20:20:38 <Adlai> try just running at the shell: export LC_ALL=C bitcoind --your --options
1585 2014-10-10 20:20:42 <cfields> sand3r: you need to fix your environment. Bitcoin won't be your only issue with a busted locale
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1589 2014-10-10 20:27:15 <sipa> ajweiss: i hope we get agreement to merge it soon, yes
1590 2014-10-10 20:27:26 <sipa> (which does not mean it is perfect, or will be immeditely released)
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1595 2014-10-10 20:31:13 <sand3r> Adlai: thanks
1596 2014-10-10 20:31:26 <sand3r> export LC_ALL=C bitcoind
1597 2014-10-10 20:31:30 <sand3r> bitcoind
1598 2014-10-10 20:31:34 <sand3r> Bitcoin server starting
1599 2014-10-10 20:31:36 <sand3r> :)
1600 2014-10-10 20:32:18 <Adlai> sand3r: you should fix your system configuration though, bitcoin isn't the only app that expects proper locale configuration
1601 2014-10-10 20:32:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: might be interesting to consider replacing early blocks with batched log entries. Maybe just a benchmark on the first 100k reindexing with logging disabled.
1602 2014-10-10 20:32:59 <sand3r> Adlai: what should i do?
1603 2014-10-10 20:32:59 <gmaxwell> (or just make it log only on mod 100k and compare log timestamps)
1604 2014-10-10 20:33:26 <sipa> sand3r: off topic here
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1606 2014-10-10 20:34:37 <ajweiss> sipa: i get it, but it would be a great step and a cue to really start knocking around with it some more...
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1608 2014-10-10 20:35:38 <ajweiss> (at least for me)
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1621 2014-10-10 20:47:20 <devrandom> bloom filter auto-updates only on scriptPubKey matches, right?
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1630 2014-10-10 20:57:15 <devrandom> reading the code and BIP, the answer is "yes"
1631 2014-10-10 20:57:38 <sipa> I will confirm nor deny.
1632 2014-10-10 20:58:09 <sipa> (due to obliviousness)
1633 2014-10-10 21:01:30 <devrandom> obviousness or obliviousness? ;)
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1751 2014-10-10 23:12:23 <sipa> devrandom: obliviousness
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1759 2014-10-10 23:32:13 <CodeShark> is there a higher resolution version of https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032/derivation.png available?
1760 2014-10-10 23:33:15 Gyps has joined
1761 2014-10-10 23:33:20 <sipa> Alan made that one, so you'll have to ask him
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1774 2014-10-10 23:45:36 <sipa> stupid starbucks wifi; make depends fails to fetch boost :(
1775 2014-10-10 23:45:38 <Luke-Jr> cfields: for some reason, 'make' misses changes to src/init.cpp and doesn't rebuild bitcoind :|
1776 2014-10-10 23:45:48 <Luke-Jr> or something
1777 2014-10-10 23:45:58 <Luke-Jr> it rebuilds libbitcoin_server.a, but not bitcoind..
1778 2014-10-10 23:46:17 <Luke-Jr> ⦠oops, nm - --without-daemon
1779 2014-10-10 23:46:27 <cfields> heh
1780 2014-10-10 23:46:33 <Luke-Jr> must have been testing something at some point
1781 2014-10-10 23:52:17 <Luke-Jr> side comment: IMO, src/script/standard.* doesn't belong in a lib when we get to that
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1783 2014-10-10 23:52:37 <cfields> yep, it's not
1784 2014-10-10 23:52:43 <Luke-Jr> ⦠although maybe I'm wrong there
1785 2014-10-10 23:52:52 <cfields> well, it was necessary before a reshuffle
1786 2014-10-10 23:52:56 <Luke-Jr> I can see it being handy to have tools to create and parse/use them
1787 2014-10-10 23:52:57 <cfields> won't be after
1788 2014-10-10 23:53:01 <sipa> it is needed in a general script library that also does signing
1789 2014-10-10 23:53:08 <sipa> it is not needing in a consensus library
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1791 2014-10-10 23:53:14 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right
1792 2014-10-10 23:53:56 <Luke-Jr> libbitcoinscript vs libbitcointx I suppose
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1799 2014-10-10 23:58:24 <null_radix> sipa does secp256k1 have a "generate K derminstacly" function anywhere?
1800 2014-10-10 23:58:42 <sipa> no
1801 2014-10-10 23:58:51 <Luke-Jr> "not yet"? ;)
1802 2014-10-10 23:58:51 <sipa> it intentionally does nothing beside the EC stuff
1803 2014-10-10 23:58:56 <sipa> you provide the K yourself
1804 2014-10-10 23:58:58 <Luke-Jr> ah
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1806 2014-10-10 23:59:02 <sipa> if you want to compute it deterministically, do so
1807 2014-10-10 23:59:27 <null_radix> ok thanks
1808 2014-10-10 23:59:32 <null_radix> would you be opposed to a PR if I added it?
1809 2014-10-10 23:59:37 <gmaxwell> yes.
1810 2014-10-10 23:59:51 <gmaxwell> there isn't and shouldn't be a hash function in the library.