1 2014-10-11 00:00:15 <gmaxwell> should be done like pieter's not published yet schnorr support is probably constructed.
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   3 2014-10-11 00:00:28 <null_radix> ok
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  10 2014-10-11 00:09:14 <earlz> So, does the RPC interface for bitcore actually work in the browser? Documentation appears to say so, but I can't get it to make more than a single OPTIONS request
  11 2014-10-11 00:09:44 <earlz> https://github.com/bitpay/bitcore/issues/537
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  28 2014-10-11 00:33:05 <lechuga_> earlz: there is #bitcore
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  30 2014-10-11 00:33:49 <lechuga_> also the OPTIONS command is hitting 127.0.0.1:8332
  31 2014-10-11 00:34:27 <lechuga_> is 18332 intended?
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  33 2014-10-11 00:35:43 <earlz> no
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  35 2014-10-11 00:35:55 <earlz> I changed that in the code
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  37 2014-10-11 00:37:17 <lechuga_> ?
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  54 2014-10-11 01:06:23 <ruukasu> Luke-Jr: /go #theanimeclub
  55 2014-10-11 01:06:25 <ruukasu> fuc
  56 2014-10-11 01:06:28 <ruukasu> sorry
  57 2014-10-11 01:06:39 <ruukasu> how humiliating
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  59 2014-10-11 01:07:23 <Adlai> "awkward" is only true once said out loud
  60 2014-10-11 01:08:03 <sipa> ?
  61 2014-10-11 01:08:48 <lechuga_> if ur going 2 troll at least have it make sense
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 109 2014-10-11 02:50:37 <earlz> Why is getrawtransaction/vout/scriptPubKey/addresses an array?
 110 2014-10-11 02:51:02 <earlz> Can that be more than 1 for multisig?
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 113 2014-10-11 02:52:14 <phantomcircuit> earlz, right
 114 2014-10-11 02:53:53 <earlz> ugh breaking my block explorer :(
 115 2014-10-11 02:56:11 <phantomcircuit> bad assumptions
 116 2014-10-11 02:56:14 <phantomcircuit> are bad
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 125 2014-10-11 03:07:47 <CodeShark> the whole "address" thing was a bad idea from the start :p
 126 2014-10-11 03:08:20 <lechuga_> why
 127 2014-10-11 03:08:36 <CodeShark> an "address" is actually a specific encoding for a special type of script
 128 2014-10-11 03:08:39 WeCluster has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 129 2014-10-11 03:08:40 <Rozal> I would like the developers to know this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHeP9Sve48#
 130 2014-10-11 03:09:08 <lechuga_> sure so if a script matches the hash160 template is it not reaosnable to display the base58 encoded address
 131 2014-10-11 03:09:21 <CodeShark> a "bitcoin address" has little in common with post offices
 132 2014-10-11 03:10:03 <firelegend> CodeShark:What would you have replaced addresses with?
 133 2014-10-11 03:10:04 <CodeShark> "invoice script" is a far less confusing term - or "invoice id" if we don't want to get too technical
 134 2014-10-11 03:10:45 <firelegend> CodeShark:Mashing the keyboard and hoping the right person receives the bitcoins doesnt sound better to me.
 135 2014-10-11 03:10:54 joecool has joined
 136 2014-10-11 03:11:10 WeCluster has joined
 137 2014-10-11 03:11:12 <CodeShark> but the use model is significantly different from the way people are used to using "addresses"
 138 2014-10-11 03:11:26 c0rw1n has joined
 139 2014-10-11 03:11:38 <firelegend> not everybody needs to know how bitcoin works to use it
 140 2014-10-11 03:11:47 <lechuga_> hopefully not
 141 2014-10-11 03:11:49 <CodeShark> right - but there's no need to confuse them even more
 142 2014-10-11 03:12:47 <CodeShark> and the terminology isn't the only problem with the whole "bitcoin address" thing.
 143 2014-10-11 03:13:13 <lechuga_> ?
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 145 2014-10-11 03:13:32 won9 has quit (Quit: won9)
 146 2014-10-11 03:13:56 <CodeShark> there are also some technical issues - an "address" is a specific encoding for a datafield that comprises nearly the entire output script. So we gain very little by only encoding that datafield rather than just using the entire script
 147 2014-10-11 03:14:08 <CodeShark> and we lose generality
 148 2014-10-11 03:14:10 nessence has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 149 2014-10-11 03:14:28 <firelegend> you are worrying over nothing
 150 2014-10-11 03:14:44 <firelegend> you should worry that the air inside your room doesnt gather in one corner :D
 151 2014-10-11 03:14:54 <CodeShark> it means implementations now need to have special cases to deal with different "address" types
 152 2014-10-11 03:15:07 <CodeShark> more special cases -> greater complexity -> more error-prone
 153 2014-10-11 03:15:12 <CodeShark> uglier code
 154 2014-10-11 03:15:15 <CodeShark> and harder to maintain code
 155 2014-10-11 03:15:20 MaxSan has joined
 156 2014-10-11 03:16:13 <CodeShark> in retrospect, only supporting p2sh would have probably been a good idea…but we can only really say this with the benefit of hindsight
 157 2014-10-11 03:16:13 broz has joined
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 159 2014-10-11 03:16:43 <CodeShark> p2sh preserves script generality while maintaining a consistent payment request format
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 161 2014-10-11 03:20:14 <Luke-Jr> [03:01:52] <lechuga_> sure so if a script matches the hash160 template is it not reaosnable to display the base58 encoded address <-- display, yes. equate, no. equate to the scriptSig spending it, HECK NO.
 162 2014-10-11 03:20:16 <lechuga_> yeah it would've been nice if it were realized first
 163 2014-10-11 03:20:35 <lechuga_> luke-jr: nod
 164 2014-10-11 03:20:48 <Luke-Jr> payment protocol is the best we have today, and it's not really usable
 165 2014-10-11 03:21:14 <lechuga_> not usable how (im aware of shortcomings but curious)
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 170 2014-10-11 03:22:14 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: I have no way to request a payment using the payment protocol, short of setting up a webserver with who knows what PHP scripts and buying a SSL cert for it
 171 2014-10-11 03:22:25 <Luke-Jr> ie, on an individual-to-individual level
 172 2014-10-11 03:22:29 gcefbr_ has joined
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 174 2014-10-11 03:22:53 <lechuga_> true
 175 2014-10-11 03:22:57 <lechuga_> not very p2p friendly
 176 2014-10-11 03:23:25 <lechuga_> atm
 177 2014-10-11 03:24:48 <CodeShark> imo, trying to specify the message structures AND the transport layer in a single spec is not the way to go
 178 2014-10-11 03:25:14 <CodeShark> we want flexibility in how requests are transmitted
 179 2014-10-11 03:25:15 <lechuga_> the transport layer isnt explicit except for bip72 right
 180 2014-10-11 03:25:40 <lechuga_> i think it's assumed it wont just be used with https
 181 2014-10-11 03:25:49 gcefbr has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 182 2014-10-11 03:25:52 <lechuga_> or else why bother embedding x509 in it
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 185 2014-10-11 03:27:35 <CodeShark> point is you can define message structures independently of the specific workflows for payment requests. the workflow could be different in different contexts
 186 2014-10-11 03:27:51 <lechuga_> protocol seems transport agnostic 2 me
 187 2014-10-11 03:28:30 <CodeShark> well, even deciding to use protobuf specifically seems too much
 188 2014-10-11 03:28:47 <Luke-Jr> ._.
 189 2014-10-11 03:28:59 <CodeShark> the goal is simply to have a way of issuing a payment request such that the recipient of the request can verify the sender's identity
 190 2014-10-11 03:29:19 <Luke-Jr> which requires an encoding..
 191 2014-10-11 03:31:50 <CodeShark> sure - that's true…but protobuf is designed more for efficient transport than anything else - and it adds another layer of complexity and dependencies to implementations that do not require efficient transport
 192 2014-10-11 03:32:33 <CodeShark> in other words, it's not an encoding that can be easily implemented directly
 193 2014-10-11 03:32:51 <lechuga_> being space efficient allows it to accomodate a larger variety of transport layers
 194 2014-10-11 03:33:13 <CodeShark> the only requirement, as far as the encoding, is that it be unique - so we can sign it
 195 2014-10-11 03:33:39 <CodeShark> the signature verification layer doesn't really care about the transport layer
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 198 2014-10-11 03:35:04 <CodeShark> if you want to use protobuf for transport, that's fine - you decode the structure on the other end and put it into a simpler, easier-to-implement encoding to verify the signature
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 201 2014-10-11 03:39:01 <CodeShark> main point I'm trying to make is that it adds another hurdle for a developer that isn't dealing directly with networking and brings in more dependencies that are relatively opaque
 202 2014-10-11 03:39:46 <CodeShark> it's just one more thing that makes it harder for people to adopt the payment protocol at the application level
 203 2014-10-11 03:40:16 <lechuga_> what's a more simple alternative to protobufs
 204 2014-10-11 03:41:08 <CodeShark> a nice thing about protobufs that might be relevant is that it does support wide flexibility in datatypes
 205 2014-10-11 03:41:35 <CodeShark> but I'm not sure we need that kind of support for simply verifying the identity of a payment request
 206 2014-10-11 03:43:15 <CodeShark> don't get me wrong - protobufs are really cool. but I think they are an obstacle for many developers who just want to parse and verify some basic data
 207 2014-10-11 03:44:21 <lechuga_> imo if you cant handle protobufs u prob shouldnt be handling payments
 208 2014-10-11 03:44:47 <lechuga_> and they're really simple just new :)
 209 2014-10-11 03:44:52 <CodeShark> we're looking for mass adoption - iron-clad implementations come later :p
 210 2014-10-11 03:45:50 <lechuga_> no1 is going to trust less-than-iron-clad ones
 211 2014-10-11 03:46:08 <lechuga_> and really the masses are going to require trust as much as they shouldn't need to
 212 2014-10-11 03:46:21 <CodeShark> the vast majority of bitcoin applications are far from iron-clad. most are very poorly implemented
 213 2014-10-11 03:48:09 <lechuga_> that's true of most software
 214 2014-10-11 03:48:25 <CodeShark> point is there's relatively little incentive right now for the good developers to invest much in supporting the payment protocol because nobody is really using it
 215 2014-10-11 03:48:43 <lechuga_> it's chicken-and-egg right
 216 2014-10-11 03:48:47 <lechuga_> support needs to exist
 217 2014-10-11 03:49:27 <CodeShark> if you make it simple enough to support so that even the bad developers can sort of use it, it means the good developers will be more willing to build support
 218 2014-10-11 03:49:58 <lechuga_> if you dont use protobufs correctly your messages don't parse
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 220 2014-10-11 03:50:21 <lechuga_> doesnt seem catastrophic
 221 2014-10-11 03:50:47 <CodeShark> it effectively eliminates at least 75% of current bitcoin developers :p
 222 2014-10-11 03:51:06 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, what
 223 2014-10-11 03:51:15 <lechuga_> ?
 224 2014-10-11 03:51:19 <phantomcircuit> protobuf will parse all kinds of nonsense as a valid message
 225 2014-10-11 03:52:22 <CodeShark> the only other sensible approach to mass adoption is to build solid library distributions for the most popular programming languages
 226 2014-10-11 03:53:12 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the payment protocols probably is almost entirely with how to specify a return address
 227 2014-10-11 03:53:28 <lechuga_> i disagree
 228 2014-10-11 03:53:57 <lechuga_> it's trying to tackel the enumerated list of goals in the bip
 229 2014-10-11 03:54:02 <lechuga_> easier to reas/make sense of
 230 2014-10-11 03:54:09 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 231 2014-10-11 03:54:10 <lechuga_> read*
 232 2014-10-11 03:54:20 <lechuga_> identity verification
 233 2014-10-11 03:54:25 <lechuga_> refund addresses
 234 2014-10-11 03:54:32 <lechuga_> explicit payment destinations
 235 2014-10-11 03:54:50 <lechuga_> everything necessary such that humans can pay for things wth bitcoin
 236 2014-10-11 03:54:54 <phantomcircuit> the only one of those it is helpful for is refund addresses
 237 2014-10-11 03:55:24 <phantomcircuit> identity verification only works to the extent that the ca infrastructure works
 238 2014-10-11 03:55:30 <phantomcircuit> which is probably a reasonable goal
 239 2014-10-11 03:55:32 <lechuga_> u get explicit acknowledgement of your payment
 240 2014-10-11 03:55:35 <phantomcircuit> but is still horribly limited
 241 2014-10-11 03:55:52 <lechuga_> well mike has mentioned many times that when something more reaosnable comes along to replace CA infrastructure
 242 2014-10-11 03:55:58 <lechuga_> the protocol should be extended to accomodate it
 243 2014-10-11 03:56:05 <lechuga_> it's currently a best-effort
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 247 2014-10-11 03:57:19 <phantomcircuit> lechuga_, the payment protocol is currently interactive
 248 2014-10-11 03:57:39 <CodeShark> the X509 is an entirely separate issue from what we're discussing…and I won't even pretend to have a good solution for that
 249 2014-10-11 03:57:59 <phantomcircuit> refund addresses can be specified with the initial invoice request, but the ack of the payment cannot
 250 2014-10-11 03:58:11 <phantomcircuit> except if you have a signed invoice with the address for payment
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 252 2014-10-11 03:58:18 <phantomcircuit> do you really need a signed receipt?
 253 2014-10-11 03:58:34 <CodeShark> the blockchain is your receipt :p
 254 2014-10-11 03:58:48 <phantomcircuit> right
 255 2014-10-11 03:59:02 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: p2p invoices won't be requested, they'll be sent :/
 256 2014-10-11 03:59:33 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, oh you're right
 257 2014-10-11 04:00:12 <phantomcircuit> guess you do need 2 way communication to specify a refund address in a p2p context
 258 2014-10-11 04:00:21 <phantomcircuit> well in any context actually
 259 2014-10-11 04:00:46 <lechuga_> the p2p transport layer is what really interests me
 260 2014-10-11 04:01:20 <lechuga_> whatever it ends up being
 261 2014-10-11 04:01:45 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: how can one pay for broadcasting an invoice on the p2p network?
 262 2014-10-11 04:01:56 <Luke-Jr> you can't use probabilistic payments I think
 263 2014-10-11 04:01:59 <lechuga_> what if it isn't a broadcast
 264 2014-10-11 04:02:08 <Luke-Jr> then one of the peers needs their port open
 265 2014-10-11 04:02:19 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: bitmessage? :p
 266 2014-10-11 04:02:27 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: direct p2p is essentially dead :/
 267 2014-10-11 04:02:27 <lechuga_> udp nat traversal assisted by stun
 268 2014-10-11 04:02:33 <lechuga_> it is certainly not
 269 2014-10-11 04:02:40 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: that's going to have problems randomly
 270 2014-10-11 04:02:43 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, if you're buying/selling something from someone, then you almost certainly already have a communication channel that is 2 way
 271 2014-10-11 04:02:49 <lechuga_> luke-jr: very seldomly
 272 2014-10-11 04:02:51 <Luke-Jr> too many NAT and firewall garbage out there
 273 2014-10-11 04:02:56 <lechuga_> the majority of the world is behind restricted cone nat
 274 2014-10-11 04:03:18 <CodeShark> phantomcircuit: indeed
 275 2014-10-11 04:03:19 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: yes, but how do I know the guy in #Bitcoin-OTC is the one I'm paying?
 276 2014-10-11 04:03:21 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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 278 2014-10-11 04:04:10 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: and in person, it'll be a pain to scan each others' QR codes more than once
 279 2014-10-11 04:04:18 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, they have a gpg key sign the invoice
 280 2014-10-11 04:04:52 <phantomcircuit> .basically
 281 2014-10-11 04:05:39 <phantomcircuit> communication/identification/refund address, invoice, receipt format
 282 2014-10-11 04:05:46 <phantomcircuit> are each logically separate layers
 283 2014-10-11 04:07:02 <CodeShark> right. in principle, a refund address could be agreed upon up front and used for several subsequent transactions
 284 2014-10-11 04:07:32 <lechuga_> :o
 285 2014-10-11 04:07:54 <CodeShark> not saying it's generally a good idea - but in principle it could be done :p
 286 2014-10-11 04:10:53 <Luke-Jr> a HD wallet chain could, at least
 287 2014-10-11 04:11:00 <CodeShark> right, that's sorta what I was thinking
 288 2014-10-11 04:11:04 <Luke-Jr> as well as for subscriptions
 289 2014-10-11 04:11:21 <CodeShark> but there's something to be said for payment requests being stateless
 290 2014-10-11 04:12:04 <CodeShark> and in any case, having the sender manage the wallet chain
 291 2014-10-11 04:12:10 <CodeShark> is probably more sensible
 292 2014-10-11 04:14:31 <CodeShark> anyhow, it seems we're trying to solve too many problems at once - and in the end aren't really solving any
 293 2014-10-11 04:15:08 <CodeShark> just solving the problem of the sender being able to securely identify the recipient would already be progress.
 294 2014-10-11 04:15:31 <lechuga_> i'd argue right now paying via bip70 is a more pleasant experience than not
 295 2014-10-11 04:15:47 <lechuga_> and i'd agree more work is necessary
 296 2014-10-11 04:15:51 <Luke-Jr> paying yes, receiving no :p
 297 2014-10-11 04:15:55 <lechuga_> :)
 298 2014-10-11 04:16:11 <CodeShark> more pleasant for whom? application developers? or end users? :)
 299 2014-10-11 04:16:21 <lechuga_> end users aka the masses
 300 2014-10-11 04:18:13 <CodeShark> perhaps the payment protocol should be broken up into an invoicing protocol and a refunding protocol
 301 2014-10-11 04:18:48 <CodeShark> many applications do not require an automated refunding mechanism
 302 2014-10-11 04:18:58 <Luke-Jr> like?
 303 2014-10-11 04:19:14 justanotheruser has joined
 304 2014-10-11 04:19:23 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, i would advise against that
 305 2014-10-11 04:19:32 <Luke-Jr> maybe a refund should be an invoice itself :p
 306 2014-10-11 04:19:38 <phantomcircuit> mostly because it's then difficult to forcibly refund people who are ridiculous
 307 2014-10-11 04:19:39 <Luke-Jr> same kind of thing really
 308 2014-10-11 04:20:23 Burrito has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 309 2014-10-11 04:20:27 bassguitarman has joined
 310 2014-10-11 04:20:35 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: if only 0.000001% of your transactions result in a refund in practice, you can probably afford to just deal with the exceptional case manually :p
 311 2014-10-11 04:20:38 weilu has joined
 312 2014-10-11 04:20:49 <CodeShark> unless you're talking about HUGE volume
 313 2014-10-11 04:21:44 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you're forgetting people who do not cooperate in being refunded
 314 2014-10-11 04:22:22 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, and that 0.00000001% will sue you instead of accepting a refund
 315 2014-10-11 04:22:39 <phantomcircuit> case in point http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-gold-service-faces-class-action-alleged-fraud/
 316 2014-10-11 04:24:11 ThomasV has joined
 317 2014-10-11 04:24:19 <CodeShark> perhaps it would be simplest from a logical perspective to incorporate refund scripts into the transactions themselves - the downside is extra blockchain fluff
 318 2014-10-11 04:25:33 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, that's been suggested a number of times, and could be done with OP_RETURN
 319 2014-10-11 04:25:49 fatalhalt has joined
 320 2014-10-11 04:26:01 <phantomcircuit> some random 20 byte magic value + 20 bytes of address for the refund
 321 2014-10-11 04:26:09 <phantomcircuit> everybody agrees on the magic value and we call it a day
 322 2014-10-11 04:26:30 <phantomcircuit> however this has a number of downsides
 323 2014-10-11 04:26:35 <phantomcircuit> one it leaks the refund address
 324 2014-10-11 04:26:41 <CodeShark> doesn't have to
 325 2014-10-11 04:26:56 <phantomcircuit> two it's something which could be external that isn't
 326 2014-10-11 04:27:03 <phantomcircuit> so it's wasting space
 327 2014-10-11 04:27:14 <CodeShark> in principle you could just store the hash of the refund address in the blockchain
 328 2014-10-11 04:27:15 <phantomcircuit> but could be pruned
 329 2014-10-11 04:27:41 <CodeShark> and send the actual address in a separate communication
 330 2014-10-11 04:27:41 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, same thing, you're trivially linking the payment with the refund
 331 2014-10-11 04:27:52 <CodeShark> point is only the recipient would know this data
 332 2014-10-11 04:28:03 <phantomcircuit> no because eventually the address will be on the network
 333 2014-10-11 04:28:19 <CodeShark> hmmm, good point
 334 2014-10-11 04:28:21 <phantomcircuit> joining all addresses with all refund address hashes would be trivial
 335 2014-10-11 04:29:04 <CodeShark> the sender/recipient could also share a secret that's used as part of the hash
 336 2014-10-11 04:29:19 <CodeShark> although I'm not sure that simplifies anything
 337 2014-10-11 04:29:27 <CodeShark> perhaps that just defeats the whole purpose
 338 2014-10-11 04:29:32 <phantomcircuit> yeah it does
 339 2014-10-11 04:29:34 <phantomcircuit> :P
 340 2014-10-11 04:31:23 lightlike has joined
 341 2014-10-11 04:32:05 <CodeShark> alternatively, the sender could simply provide a signature for the address in the transaction
 342 2014-10-11 04:32:43 <CodeShark> using one of the other signing keys, even
 343 2014-10-11 04:33:22 <CodeShark> but that does have the fluff downside
 344 2014-10-11 04:33:23 davec has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 345 2014-10-11 04:33:40 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, requires the person requesting a refund to sign the refund address and send that to the other party
 346 2014-10-11 04:33:45 <phantomcircuit> which is what you're already doing
 347 2014-10-11 04:33:52 <phantomcircuit> full circle
 348 2014-10-11 04:33:57 <CodeShark> yeah - solves nothing
 349 2014-10-11 04:34:54 <lightlike> hey guys, i'm playing around with rpc calls to my bitcoind on testnet -- i imported an address/sent BTC with a faucet/verified txn on blockchain/verified that bitcoind has downloaded the block with the txn, but getReceivedByAddress doesn't show any received txns
 350 2014-10-11 04:35:59 <lightlike> listReceivedByAddress shows the imported address but shows no txids and zero amount
 351 2014-10-11 04:36:59 Adohgg has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 352 2014-10-11 04:37:51 <lightlike> any ideas?
 353 2014-10-11 04:38:40 davec has joined
 354 2014-10-11 04:38:55 <lechuga_> is your node fully synced
 355 2014-10-11 04:39:22 <lightlike> yeah, when i do getBlock on the block containing the txn it returns the block
 356 2014-10-11 04:39:40 <lightlike> and its txn list contains the txn transferring to this address
 357 2014-10-11 04:39:53 <lechuga_> what happens if you use bitcoin-cli to get the same information
 358 2014-10-11 04:40:12 <phantomcircuit> when you say you imported an address
 359 2014-10-11 04:40:20 <phantomcircuit> which exact rpc call did you use
 360 2014-10-11 04:40:36 sarid is now known as saridKittenChan
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 362 2014-10-11 04:40:56 <CodeShark> did you send the transaction from the same wallet?
 363 2014-10-11 04:41:01 saridKittenChan is now known as sarid
 364 2014-10-11 04:42:00 <lightlike> i used importAddress(address, label)
 365 2014-10-11 04:42:09 <lightlike> seems to have been merged from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2861
 366 2014-10-11 04:42:22 <lightlike> no, I got it from a testnet faucet
 367 2014-10-11 04:42:24 <CodeShark> did you rescan the chain?
 368 2014-10-11 04:42:36 <lightlike> that may be the problem
 369 2014-10-11 04:42:40 sinetek has joined
 370 2014-10-11 04:42:52 <CodeShark> sounds like it
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 372 2014-10-11 04:45:03 <lightlike> not sure why importAddress isn't in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
 373 2014-10-11 04:45:24 <lightlike> and it looks like the only way to trigger a rescan is to call importPrivKey(privKey, label, true)?
 374 2014-10-11 04:45:34 <CodeShark> no, you can rescan at startup
 375 2014-10-11 04:45:42 <lightlike> got it
 376 2014-10-11 04:45:47 <lightlike> that seems to have worked; thanks!
 377 2014-10-11 04:45:51 <Luke-Jr> passing a bool by reference seems to confuse people? :/
 378 2014-10-11 04:45:51 <CodeShark> :)
 379 2014-10-11 04:46:22 <lechuga_> moreso than passing anything else by reference?
 380 2014-10-11 04:46:39 <lechuga_> std:pair ftw
 381 2014-10-11 04:46:41 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: dunno, maybe this guy is just a n00b - although I find it slightly confusing in this case at least
 382 2014-10-11 04:47:40 sinetek has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 383 2014-10-11 04:48:08 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: I'm used to the C++ style guide
 384 2014-10-11 04:48:18 <dcousens> Which is, const references all thew ay
 385 2014-10-11 04:48:21 <Luke-Jr> aha, you're here :D
 386 2014-10-11 04:48:23 <dcousens> If you mutate, you use a pointer
 387 2014-10-11 04:48:37 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: a pointer usually implies NULL is acceptable
 388 2014-10-11 04:48:38 <dcousens> Its to avoid confusing cases like this
 389 2014-10-11 04:48:58 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: right - passing by reference means passing NULL is impossible
 390 2014-10-11 04:48:58 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: true
 391 2014-10-11 04:49:24 <Luke-Jr> it would unnecessarily complicate policy code to make NULL an acceptable reference there
 392 2014-10-11 04:49:26 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: honestly a fan of std::pair or tuple tbh haha
 393 2014-10-11 04:49:27 <lightlike> when bitcoind receives a block it should look for imported addresses in the block txn outputs though, right?
 394 2014-10-11 04:49:41 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: how would you change this to use those? I don't see the use
 395 2014-10-11 04:50:01 <CodeShark> lightlike: new blocks, yes - old blocks, at best should be optional
 396 2014-10-11 04:50:02 <Luke-Jr> lightlike: yes, but note importing keys is a bad idea in general
 397 2014-10-11 04:50:03 <lightlike> the issue might've been that i imported the address after bitcoind received the block
 398 2014-10-11 04:50:24 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: well the issue is you're doing two things in that function
 399 2014-10-11 04:50:37 <dcousens> You're determining whether a transaction should be accepted into the mempool
 400 2014-10-11 04:50:42 <CodeShark> lightlike: in order to locate the transaction bitcoind would have to maintain an address index
 401 2014-10-11 04:50:48 <dcousens> And you're also returning information regarding where it should be rate limited
 402 2014-10-11 04:50:50 <lightlike> why is that? what's the conventional way to monitor transactions to given addresses?
 403 2014-10-11 04:51:04 <lechuga_> yeah
 404 2014-10-11 04:51:13 <lechuga_> pointer means i have to handle null
 405 2014-10-11 04:51:13 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: hmm, maybe rate limiting should be a value on the CValidationState?
 406 2014-10-11 04:51:27 <CodeShark> lightlike: bitcoind's wallet only keeps an index of your wallet addresses
 407 2014-10-11 04:51:37 <Luke-Jr> lightlike: watch-only wallets, which nothing really supports reasonably well
 408 2014-10-11 04:51:58 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: that's why I stopped working on that approach
 409 2014-10-11 04:52:12 <Luke-Jr> lightlike: also note any given address should only ever receive one transaction
 410 2014-10-11 04:52:17 <CodeShark> sipa was still nice enough to add it and merge it :)
 411 2014-10-11 04:52:18 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: ?
 412 2014-10-11 04:52:30 <CodeShark> importaddress was originally my pull request :p
 413 2014-10-11 04:52:36 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: oh :/
 414 2014-10-11 04:52:52 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: where is CValidationState defined btw?
 415 2014-10-11 04:53:08 <Luke-Jr> main.h
 416 2014-10-11 04:53:11 <dcousens> cheers
 417 2014-10-11 04:53:16 <Luke-Jr> git grep is handy :P
 418 2014-10-11 04:53:20 <dcousens> Github search wasn't picking it up
 419 2014-10-11 04:53:25 <lightlike> Luke-Jr: what do you mean that nothing really supports watch-only wallets well?
 420 2014-10-11 04:53:26 <dcousens> And haven't got the code base handy
 421 2014-10-11 04:53:45 <CodeShark> the bitcoind wallet sucks for anything other than the most basic single-user use case
 422 2014-10-11 04:53:54 <CodeShark> single-user single device
 423 2014-10-11 04:54:09 kgk_ has joined
 424 2014-10-11 04:54:11 <CodeShark> it wasn't really designed for anything else
 425 2014-10-11 04:54:27 <lightlike> what would you use if you wanted to just monitor a bunch of addresses?
 426 2014-10-11 04:54:38 <CodeShark> https://ciphrex.com :)
 427 2014-10-11 04:54:55 <CodeShark> although it isn't for monitoring arbitrary addresses
 428 2014-10-11 04:55:38 <lightlike> tracking transactions to lots of addresses is really the only thing i need to do
 429 2014-10-11 04:55:54 <CodeShark> however, I've pretty much obviated the need to import arbitrary addresses (other than in the special case of blockchain analysis tools)
 430 2014-10-11 04:56:07 Francisco has joined
 431 2014-10-11 04:56:10 <Luke-Jr> lightlike: I mean there's no user friendly way to make a watch only wallet today
 432 2014-10-11 04:56:56 <Luke-Jr> importaddress will work to a limited extent if you know every single address in question
 433 2014-10-11 04:57:07 <lightlike> why to a limited extent?
 434 2014-10-11 04:57:10 <Luke-Jr> you'll just have to ignore 'send' transactions which are unrelated to the addresses
 435 2014-10-11 04:57:27 <lightlike> these are all addresses i'm controlling
 436 2014-10-11 04:57:29 <Luke-Jr> because it is trying to emulate a watch-only wallet with its addresses, so it includes the unrelated 'send' pairs
 437 2014-10-11 04:58:12 <lightlike> what are 'send' pairs?
 438 2014-10-11 04:58:18 Fr4n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 439 2014-10-11 04:58:35 <Luke-Jr> lightlike: the transactions which consume UTXOs created when the address received a payment.
 440 2014-10-11 04:58:58 <Luke-Jr> lightlike: ie, they are transactions *leaving* the wallet using that address, but they have nothing to do with the address itself
 441 2014-10-11 04:59:07 <lightlike> cool
 442 2014-10-11 04:59:26 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: I think CValidationState might be OK, but that class is generalized for blocks and transactions, this would make it more specific to Transactions... depending on what you move into I guess
 443 2014-10-11 04:59:41 <Luke-Jr> hm
 444 2014-10-11 05:00:46 * Luke-Jr leaves a comment back on GitHub to see what others think
 445 2014-10-11 05:01:17 <midnightmagic> is this still functional? https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/watchonly
 446 2014-10-11 05:03:18 <CodeShark> wow, sipa really put some effort into making this thing actually work :p
 447 2014-10-11 05:04:32 <dcousens> CodeShark: "passing by reference means passing NULL is impossible", heh, don't be so sure :P
 448 2014-10-11 05:05:25 <CodeShark> dcousens: ok, not impossible
 449 2014-10-11 05:06:56 <CodeShark> let's just say it isn't something that would likely be done accidentally
 450 2014-10-11 05:07:00 hastagg_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 451 2014-10-11 05:07:16 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: oh?
 452 2014-10-11 05:07:32 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: AFAIK the functionality is in master now
 453 2014-10-11 05:07:52 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: I suppose you could overwrite the call stack :p
 454 2014-10-11 05:08:20 <dcousens> CodeShark: haha, or just C-style case a NULL pointer in some obscure way that clang doesn't catch it
 455 2014-10-11 05:08:24 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: sure, but by that logic you can do a lot of crazy things :p
 456 2014-10-11 05:08:28 <dcousens> haha
 457 2014-10-11 05:08:30 <dcousens> Indeed.
 458 2014-10-11 05:08:41 <dcousens> Just saying, impossible is a strong word haha
 459 2014-10-11 05:08:43 <Luke-Jr> I meant within the scope of C++
 460 2014-10-11 05:08:55 <Luke-Jr> as impossible as changing a private property from outside the object :p
 461 2014-10-11 05:09:29 <CodeShark> friend? :p
 462 2014-10-11 05:09:39 ubuntu__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 463 2014-10-11 05:10:06 <Luke-Jr> put another way: I think it would be valid for the compiler to check a NULL value and throw an exception implicitly?
 464 2014-10-11 05:11:34 <dcousens> Luke-Jr: you know, if its a pain, I think even a comment to explain that fRateLimit is mutated in that function would be enough
 465 2014-10-11 05:12:02 <dcousens> its a code smell, sure, but only in terms of reading/grokking the code quickly
 466 2014-10-11 05:12:48 <Luke-Jr> dcousens: good idea
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 473 2014-10-11 05:27:54 Grishnakh has joined
 474 2014-10-11 05:28:52 <sipa> cfields: where do i get the osx sdk? the bitcoincore server gives 403
 475 2014-10-11 05:30:27 <sipa> or anyone else...?
 476 2014-10-11 05:30:35 <bassguitarman> sipa, there’s a github with all the sdks
 477 2014-10-11 05:30:57 <bassguitarman> or you can just download xcode
 478 2014-10-11 05:31:10 <sipa> i believe it requires some postprocessing which needs osx
 479 2014-10-11 05:31:36 sinetek has joined
 480 2014-10-11 05:33:26 <CodeShark> are you trying to build on linux?
 481 2014-10-11 05:34:00 ericmuyser has joined
 482 2014-10-11 05:34:02 <sipa> yes
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 486 2014-10-11 05:34:30 <CodeShark> I've generally found that Apple really went out of their way to make it hard to do that :p
 487 2014-10-11 05:34:48 <sipa> it's trivial with the new build depends system
 488 2014-10-11 05:34:53 <sipa> but you need the sdk source code
 489 2014-10-11 05:35:19 <CodeShark> is the sdk source code public? wow - didn't know that
 490 2014-10-11 05:35:20 <sipa> given how hard it is to find, i assume it's not legally distributable
 491 2014-10-11 05:35:36 <sipa> yes it's part of xcode apparently
 492 2014-10-11 05:35:56 <sipa> but to get it you must download xcode (which is legal), and then extract a tgz out of the unpacked distribution
 493 2014-10-11 05:36:13 sinetek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 494 2014-10-11 05:37:05 <CodeShark> I've come to rely on setting up OS X VMs for OS X builds - but if there's a simple way to build directly from linux, I wouldn't be opposed to using it
 495 2014-10-11 05:38:16 <sipa> have a look at bitcoin core's depends system, it's pretty awesome
 496 2014-10-11 05:38:37 <sipa> it does arm, win32, win64, linux32, linux64 and osx builds
 497 2014-10-11 05:38:49 <CodeShark> the main reason I haven't done that is because I'd rather spend time building new products than setting up build systems - but cfields has apparently done much of the work already
 498 2014-10-11 05:38:58 <sipa> yeah
 499 2014-10-11 05:42:58 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 500 2014-10-11 05:43:49 webdeli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 501 2014-10-11 05:44:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: note the osx sdk is not legally redistributable :/
 502 2014-10-11 05:44:34 <sipa> yeah, i figured
 503 2014-10-11 05:45:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: note extracting it cannot be done on Linux (or Windows) :/
 504 2014-10-11 05:45:11 <sipa> uhu, i remember
 505 2014-10-11 05:45:16 <gmaxwell> well, to be expected to use propritary tools to setup to build for a propritary system.
 506 2014-10-11 05:45:23 <gmaxwell> be glad they don't need a blood sample.
 507 2014-10-11 05:45:32 <sipa> and your firstborn
 508 2014-10-11 05:45:37 webdeli has joined
 509 2014-10-11 05:45:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: disagree on expectation :p
 510 2014-10-11 05:46:00 * Luke-Jr wonders if someone should throw money at someone to figure out how to fix a DMG extractor on Linux <.<
 511 2014-10-11 05:47:27 <CodeShark> now cfields needs to figure out how to build for iOS from linux :p
 512 2014-10-11 05:48:23 syst3mw0rm has joined
 513 2014-10-11 05:50:09 ubuntu__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 514 2014-10-11 05:50:37 <CodeShark> I feel for cfields - I hope the Bitcoin Foundation at least is paying him a nice salary
 515 2014-10-11 05:51:21 sinetek has joined
 516 2014-10-11 05:53:36 * midnightmagic was about to point out archivers/undms and then remembers what an Amiga is
 517 2014-10-11 05:54:52 syst3mw0rm has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 518 2014-10-11 05:55:41 <sipa> ...?
 519 2014-10-11 05:55:52 <sipa> ~
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 536 2014-10-11 06:16:41 <wumpus> we do build for iOS from linux
 537 2014-10-11 06:17:13 <wumpus> the SDK needs to be extracted on a MacOSX machine, but after that it can be used as input to gitian
 538 2014-10-11 06:17:23 <sipa> wumpus: for MacOS, not for iOS
 539 2014-10-11 06:18:16 <wumpus> huh, okay, right we don't even have iOS as a platform
 540 2014-10-11 06:19:24 <gmaxwell> PPC cross compiles next!
 541 2014-10-11 06:19:25 * gmaxwell ducks
 542 2014-10-11 06:19:45 attilah has joined
 543 2014-10-11 06:19:53 <sipa> is there some universal turing machine language we can target?
 544 2014-10-11 06:20:12 <CodeShark> brainf***
 545 2014-10-11 06:20:23 <sipa> brainfork?
 546 2014-10-11 06:21:02 <CodeShark> Cook and Wolfram's rule 110 :)
 547 2014-10-11 06:21:32 webdeli has joined
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 551 2014-10-11 06:24:10 <CodeShark> a truly complete computing model for practical cryptography also requires an entropy source :p
 552 2014-10-11 06:26:03 <midnightmagic> I have a PPC machine here which will shortly be running NetBSD. :-) cross-compiling should be a snap.
 553 2014-10-11 06:26:06 * midnightmagic quacks
 554 2014-10-11 06:27:02 <CodeShark> are you a museum curator?
 555 2014-10-11 06:27:29 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: we never got bitcoind to NATIVE compile for PPC :P
 556 2014-10-11 06:28:10 <midnightmagic> essentially, though most of the intermediate-age devices are behaving so erratically that getting functional boots requires up to a month of careful ISOLINUX building
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 561 2014-10-11 06:31:25 <Belxjander> I'm running a PowerPC machine setup here...if that is any help?
 562 2014-10-11 06:32:24 <Belxjander> is the "libbitcoin/libbitcoin" on github.com comparable to bitcoin core as a workable base to build from?
 563 2014-10-11 06:32:37 <midnightmagic> :-o
 564 2014-10-11 06:33:19 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: libbitcoin has no code-relation to Bitcoin Core at all
 565 2014-10-11 06:33:19 <Adlai> what are you building on it?
 566 2014-10-11 06:33:58 <wumpus> yes, what are you trying to do?
 567 2014-10-11 06:34:21 * Adlai can imagine some use cases for which this would be OK, and others for which you only want to use the reference software, bitcoind
 568 2014-10-11 06:35:47 <Belxjander> okay so no relation then
 569 2014-10-11 06:35:48 <CodeShark> bitcoind is the antithesis of modularity :p
 570 2014-10-11 06:36:03 <sipa> it's improving!
 571 2014-10-11 06:36:10 <CodeShark> and it's much better now than it was just a few months ago
 572 2014-10-11 06:36:13 <wumpus> CodeShark: nah, a lot of progress has been made last year
 573 2014-10-11 06:36:21 <Belxjander> Well I am considering what codebase to work from for an AmigaOS native BitCoin "wallet" and "blockchain" toolkit
 574 2014-10-11 06:36:30 <Belxjander> no interest in the mining end of things
 575 2014-10-11 06:36:42 <CodeShark> ok, the original bitcoind is the antithesis of modularity - through great efforts it has been coaxed into having at least a sliver of semblance to modularity :)
 576 2014-10-11 06:37:07 <sipa> you mean the original wxbitcoin.exe? :D
 577 2014-10-11 06:37:16 <CodeShark> yeah, that
 578 2014-10-11 06:37:20 <sipa> bitcoind came much later :p
 579 2014-10-11 06:37:36 <sipa> (it was called bitcoin.exe at the time, but that wouldn't have been clear)
 580 2014-10-11 06:38:55 <sipa> Belxjander: how much RAM can you address?
 581 2014-10-11 06:39:05 Knuk has joined
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 583 2014-10-11 06:39:39 <CodeShark> and good work on that, btw, wumpus :)
 584 2014-10-11 06:39:42 <midnightmagic> Belxjander: holy crap, seriously? Are you a phase5 customer or cyberstorm maybe?
 585 2014-10-11 06:39:57 <wumpus> but to give satoshi the benefit of the doubt, modularity is generally not an issue if you're writing proof of concept research code that probably less than 5 other people will ever look at; he could have had no idea it would be such a succes
 586 2014-10-11 06:40:08 <Belxjander> sipa: I have an AMCC440EP processor, 1GB of System Memory, 128MB on an ATI Radeon 9200 series GPU based Graphics card, and an FPGA on the motherboard that is openly SDK accessible
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 588 2014-10-11 06:40:27 <Belxjander> midnightmagic: neither... sam440ep-flex owner
 589 2014-10-11 06:40:34 <sipa> oh, i was expecting much lower numbers
 590 2014-10-11 06:40:42 <Belxjander> AmigaOS 4,  the Hyperion edition
 591 2014-10-11 06:40:47 <wumpus> CodeShark: thanks :)
 592 2014-10-11 06:41:04 <Belxjander> sipa: thats because of the expectation "Amiga== 68K" hardware right?
 593 2014-10-11 06:41:27 <sipa> Belxjander: in my mind, "Amiga == prehistory"
 594 2014-10-11 06:41:27 <CodeShark> wumpus: bitcoin is of sufficient complexity that unless I organized my codebase in a somewhat modular manner I would probably get lost in my own code :p
 595 2014-10-11 06:41:30 <Belxjander> sipa: both the CPU and FPGA are 667MHz clocked for this specific board
 596 2014-10-11 06:41:59 <Belxjander> sipa: oh okay...well there is still OS updates for the "NextGeneration" editions
 597 2014-10-11 06:42:19 <Belxjander> sipa: that does apply somewhat to the frankensteined 68K machines and OS release however
 598 2014-10-11 06:43:59 <CodeShark> I think the really amazing thing is that Satoshi's code actually worked and didn't have too many serious bugs
 599 2014-10-11 06:44:59 <BlueMatt> cfields: ping
 600 2014-10-11 06:45:00 <gmaxwell> it was only 18kloc... everyones a critic.
 601 2014-10-11 06:45:03 <dcousens> wumpus: which is fine... but damn why do people write proof-of-concepts in C++ haha
 602 2014-10-11 06:45:24 <sipa> the easiest language is always the one you already know
 603 2014-10-11 06:45:39 <dcousens> sipa: I know, was a rant into empty space then at the reality of it
 604 2014-10-11 06:45:40 <wumpus> dcousens: familiarity with it
 605 2014-10-11 06:46:00 <wumpus> nowadays if want to quickly write one-off code I'd use python, but say 10 years back that'd have been C++ as well
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 607 2014-10-11 06:46:29 <CodeShark> C++ is not generally a good language for academic proof of concept stuff - its strength is in modularity, reusability, portability, and performance
 608 2014-10-11 06:46:32 <dcousens> Could have been C. haha
 609 2014-10-11 06:46:34 <midnightmagic> Belxjander: are you a rev2 owner?
 610 2014-10-11 06:46:47 won9 has joined
 611 2014-10-11 06:47:01 <wumpus> CodeShark: depends on what academic proof of concept stuff; I worked in computer graphics and visualization, c++ is the language there
 612 2014-10-11 06:47:07 <Belxjander> midnightmagic: ??? what are you asking?
 613 2014-10-11 06:47:24 <dcousens> wumpus: I suspect it was probably dictated by the easiest way to bind into OpenSSL
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 615 2014-10-11 06:47:46 <midnightmagic> Belxjander: Your sam440ep-flex had three major revisions including the prototype didn't it?
 616 2014-10-11 06:47:52 sipa has left ("call me when $LANGUAGE discussions are over")
 617 2014-10-11 06:48:05 <wumpus> CodeShark: at a certain point the number of people using python, and java (for phones) was increasing rapidly, but in my days...! :P
 618 2014-10-11 06:48:17 <dcousens> haha @ sipa's reason for leaving
 619 2014-10-11 06:48:43 <Belxjander> midnightmagic: no idea...all I know is everything on my machine pretty much works and it has leet me build a Japanese Language specific Locale expansion for the native OS
 620 2014-10-11 06:48:52 <Belxjander> let not leet
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 623 2014-10-11 06:49:38 <CodeShark> I guess other strengths of C++ are tight OS and driver integration
 624 2014-10-11 06:50:09 <dcousens> CodeShark: its a systems programming language, so, no doubt
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 627 2014-10-11 06:50:36 <wumpus> anyhow, for better or worst,we're stuck with it
 628 2014-10-11 06:50:56 <dcousens> wumpus: C++11/14 is great, I wouldn't say stuck is the right word
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 630 2014-10-11 06:51:24 <CodeShark> C++ is amazing…if you use it for its strengths
 631 2014-10-11 06:51:31 <phantomcircuit> well... remove the gui and the wallet and the core codebase is actually not very large
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 636 2014-10-11 06:54:53 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: any key parts that would be the wallet and what option to switch off the GUI?
 637 2014-10-11 06:55:16 * Belxjander is in the middle of downloading the latest git master from github again
 638 2014-10-11 06:55:21 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, ./configure --disable-wallet --without-gui
 639 2014-10-11 06:55:30 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: 41k loc for wallet+core, 19k for the gui
 640 2014-10-11 06:55:33 <phantomcircuit> it's all conditional stuff
 641 2014-10-11 06:56:02 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, i think a bunch of it is the wallet code
 642 2014-10-11 06:56:03 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: and that would produce a basic stripped blockchain-storage only node daemon?
 643 2014-10-11 06:56:07 <wumpus> wallet*.cpp/h is only ~5k loc
 644 2014-10-11 06:56:09 <phantomcircuit> which isn't only in wallet.cpp and friends
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 646 2014-10-11 06:56:17 <phantomcircuit> Belxjander, yes
 647 2014-10-11 06:56:57 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: ah yes, rpcwalllet.cpp, that's another ~2k
 648 2014-10-11 06:57:30 <CodeShark> C++ also has a number of significant problems - it has a fairly irregular and complex syntax, it's not especially type-safe nor memory-safe
 649 2014-10-11 06:57:34 <Belxjander> phantomcircuit: and how would I go about getting a "configure"d setup when I configure itself may not work (lack of autotools and no options to install/build the autotools toolchain I am aware of)
 650 2014-10-11 06:58:08 <wumpus> CodeShark: the unsafety is what worries me most for a modern language; it's possible to use mostlly safe constructs, but still very easy to exceed say a buffer or have a dangling pointer
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 654 2014-10-11 06:58:55 <wumpus> CodeShark: irregularity of syntax grows on you after working with it with years, but the unsafe aspects never go away
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 657 2014-10-11 06:59:29 <sipa> qt/moc_bitcoingui.cpp:200:22: error: no member named 'trayIconActivated' in 'BitcoinGUI' case 21: _t->trayIconActivated((*reinterpret_cast< QSystemTrayIcon::ActivationReason(*)>(_a[1]))); break;
 658 2014-10-11 06:59:42 <sipa> wumpus, cfields: ^
 659 2014-10-11 06:59:47 <sipa> (OSX build)
 660 2014-10-11 07:00:11 <CodeShark> the whole template metalanguage is extremely powerful - but is essentially a language unto itself which shares little syntax with everything else
 661 2014-10-11 07:00:34 <sipa> (this is headersfirst)
 662 2014-10-11 07:00:38 <CodeShark> and it produces unreadable compiler errors
 663 2014-10-11 07:00:45 <wumpus> sipa: weird
 664 2014-10-11 07:00:46 <sipa> CodeShark: c++14 to the rescue
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 666 2014-10-11 07:01:04 <wumpus> sipa: I wonder, how can that be; the travis build passes
 667 2014-10-11 07:01:29 <sipa> bitcoind builds fine
 668 2014-10-11 07:02:42 <wumpus> oh wrong, travis doesn't pass anymore on headersfirst, it used to
 669 2014-10-11 07:02:54 <sipa> what?
 670 2014-10-11 07:02:55 <sipa> :(
 671 2014-10-11 07:03:18 <sipa> oh, now it succeeded
 672 2014-10-11 07:03:23 <sipa> make clean + make -j1
 673 2014-10-11 07:03:29 <sipa> (which was fast due to ccache)
 674 2014-10-11 07:03:53 <wumpus> probably you changed configure options related to wallet without starting from a clean tree
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 676 2014-10-11 07:04:08 <BlueMatt> bitcoind: main.cpp:1853: bool ConnectTip(CValidationState&, CBlockIndex*, CBlock*): Assertion `pindexNew->pprev == chainActive.Tip()' failed.
 677 2014-10-11 07:04:32 <sipa> cool
 678 2014-10-11 07:04:36 <sipa> must be my latest commit
 679 2014-10-11 07:04:59 <BlueMatt> heyyyyyy, comparison tool did something
 680 2014-10-11 07:05:16 <sipa> it has done a great many things
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 693 2014-10-11 07:25:08 <sipa> BlueMatt: that was a decent bug!
 694 2014-10-11 07:25:15 <sipa> it would cause failure to reorg over 32 deep
 695 2014-10-11 07:25:21 <sipa> go go comparisontool
 696 2014-10-11 07:25:33 <BlueMatt> huh? no it cant have been checking that
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 699 2014-10-11 07:26:03 <sipa> well, we'll see whether it's fixed now :)
 700 2014-10-11 07:27:44 <BlueMatt> as-is, it will check some single-digit block reorgs
 701 2014-10-11 07:27:47 <BlueMatt> but nothing that big
 702 2014-10-11 07:28:09 <BlueMatt> and probably has that many blocks on invalid chains outstanding by the end, if thats what it was
 703 2014-10-11 07:32:19 <sipa> well, whatever it was, it's fixed now!
 704 2014-10-11 07:32:34 <sipa> (which is not actually encouraging...)
 705 2014-10-11 07:32:58 <BlueMatt> no, not really
 706 2014-10-11 07:32:59 <CodeShark> how are you guys testing block reorgs?
 707 2014-10-11 07:33:26 <BlueMatt> pixie dust and guessting
 708 2014-10-11 07:33:31 <BlueMatt> s/ting/ing/
 709 2014-10-11 07:34:04 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: comparison tool.
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 713 2014-10-11 07:34:35 <sipa> guessting == guessed testing?
 714 2014-10-11 07:34:41 <CodeShark> are you talking about live network testing?
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 716 2014-10-11 07:35:16 <sipa> CodeShark: comparisontool sends various weird blocks in a weird order to the p2p port, and checks whether the peer correctly identifies the best chan
 717 2014-10-11 07:35:22 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no, a system testing tool that simulates a network and runs through many valid/invalid blocks and reorg patterns.
 718 2014-10-11 07:35:36 <CodeShark> ah, could I run my own stack against it?
 719 2014-10-11 07:35:44 <sipa> if you don't have a full node, no
 720 2014-10-11 07:35:57 <sipa> (and i hope you don't)
 721 2014-10-11 07:36:15 <gmaxwell> You can, but you'll follow bad blocks with a spv wallet, of course. A version for testing spv clients would be neat.
 722 2014-10-11 07:36:23 <sipa> indeed!
 723 2014-10-11 07:36:26 <sipa> and much simpler...
 724 2014-10-11 07:36:39 <sipa> BlueMatt: ^
 725 2014-10-11 07:36:41 <sipa> :p
 726 2014-10-11 07:36:41 <CodeShark> yes
 727 2014-10-11 07:36:44 <BlueMatt> heh
 728 2014-10-11 07:36:50 <BlueMatt> yes, that would be nice
 729 2014-10-11 07:36:58 <BlueMatt> a generalized testing tool, in general, would be nice
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 731 2014-10-11 07:37:17 <sipa> I'm generally in favor of testing/
 732 2014-10-11 07:37:39 <gmaxwell> it's generalized, but only for full nodes so far. :)
 733 2014-10-11 07:37:57 <CodeShark> it would certainly be nice to separate block tree (headers and PoW) testing from transaction verification testing
 734 2014-10-11 07:38:03 <sipa> ack
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 737 2014-10-11 07:38:42 <sipa> we need a public regtest network that just does all kinds of crazy stuff
 738 2014-10-11 07:39:00 <sipa> connect, and see your node die
 739 2014-10-11 07:40:21 <BlueMatt> yes
 740 2014-10-11 07:41:13 <CodeShark> I've resorted to things like allowing insertion of random blocks into the network message queue
 741 2014-10-11 07:42:22 <CodeShark> or just simply writing a program that can insert arbitrary blocks via command line
 742 2014-10-11 07:42:41 <CodeShark> but being able to connect to another process via p2p would be nice
 743 2014-10-11 07:43:57 <CodeShark> I've also sometimes resorted to simply letting it run for days and checking the log :p
 744 2014-10-11 07:44:02 <CodeShark> but that's too painfully slow
 745 2014-10-11 07:45:25 <CodeShark> although testing against some of the alts is slightly less painfully slow
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 757 2014-10-11 08:00:04 <wumpus> I often write small testing tools based on pynode/libbitcoin-python for testing of the P2P code against specific behavior, it's great for fast prototyping
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 774 2014-10-11 08:13:36 <Luke-Jr> let's map the listening port with UPnP only when we're not listening! :P
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 776 2014-10-11 08:15:01 <wumpus> why only the listening port? let's map all the things! :P
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 783 2014-10-11 08:18:28 <wumpus> as for #5076, it just doesn't make sense to give a fragment like "1 when listening" to translators,they need to see the context
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 785 2014-10-11 08:19:28 <wumpus> I like the idea, but don't try to be too consistent at expense of common sense :)
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 788 2014-10-11 08:24:01 * Luke-Jr stabs Transifex for omitting context
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 790 2014-10-11 08:24:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: probably just as well to include the number in the string then
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 792 2014-10-11 08:25:33 <wumpus> well transifex does an attempt to show context, but if it is possible it's better to include more context in messages
 793 2014-10-11 08:25:48 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: agreed, for those two, for the others it's fine as it is
 794 2014-10-11 08:26:34 <wumpus> but those two options have defaults that can really only be explained with translated text, and are not just a number
 795 2014-10-11 08:26:49 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: btw, did you get my msg about block proposal a few days ago?
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 797 2014-10-11 08:28:48 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I don't think so
 798 2014-10-11 08:30:22 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: its final rebase is basically just waiting on headers first, so please hold 0.10 until that's done
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 800 2014-10-11 08:30:37 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it seems ready besides the rebasing for HF
 801 2014-10-11 08:30:59 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok
 802 2014-10-11 08:31:21 <Luke-Jr> fixed those mentioned things in 5076
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 804 2014-10-11 08:31:29 <wumpus> would be nice to merge that pull from 2012 some time :p
 805 2014-10-11 08:32:20 <Luke-Jr> indeed
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 808 2014-10-11 08:35:01 <wumpus> heh the headers-first synchronization pull page on github always pops up a "Unresponsive script" warning from firefox
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 811 2014-10-11 08:37:17 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, github doesn't handle large pr's correctly
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 814 2014-10-11 08:40:02 <wumpus> and this isn't even the diff, just the comment page
 815 2014-10-11 08:40:59 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, it's also the diff
 816 2014-10-11 08:41:07 <phantomcircuit> the tabs are just css or something
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 836 2014-10-11 08:55:08 <dabura667> ffe just proposed a way to make un-hardened keys safe from the MPK + derived privkey = Master Private Key weakness... let me know what you think. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=819424.0
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 840 2014-10-11 08:58:05 <tom99> dabura < gohan
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 848 2014-10-11 09:10:36 <CodeShark> dabura667: does your scheme allow for generation of payment scripts? or just for audits?
 849 2014-10-11 09:10:44 <CodeShark> *generation of NEW payment scripts
 850 2014-10-11 09:11:11 <dabura667> tom99: MAJIIIIIIIIN BUU!
 851 2014-10-11 09:11:42 <dabura667> CodeShark: ignore the quote from me. I am talking about ffe's idea in response to my quote.
 852 2014-10-11 09:12:41 <dabura667> taken out of context... I was basically trying to say "it would be difficult to do without giving the auditor a list of all the pubkeys from each department." by showing a convoluted way of just finding out the spends.
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 854 2014-10-11 09:16:35 <dabura667> ffe's idea is pretty interesting... it made me think that either 1. remove the use of chain code in BIP32 and replace with the r/rn or R/Rn values... then you would be able to generate pubkeys all the way down like an unhardened key, but no one would be able to generate the parent master private key without the "r" value...
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 856 2014-10-11 09:17:28 <sipa> dabura667: iirc that is provably impossible, but i have not seen the proof myself
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 859 2014-10-11 09:18:08 <dabura667> sipa: what is provably impossible?
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 861 2014-10-11 09:19:19 <sipa> removing the ability to determine private privkey from parent pubkey + child privkey
 862 2014-10-11 09:19:27 <sipa> for any scheme using ecdsa
 863 2014-10-11 09:19:41 <CodeShark> the entire thing is based on that (g^a)(g^b) = g^(a+b). I don't think there's any other operation that preserves this relation
 864 2014-10-11 09:20:44 Dr-G has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 865 2014-10-11 09:20:56 <sipa> but let me first read your scheme before judging it :)
 866 2014-10-11 09:21:23 <dabura667> *ffe's scheme btw*
 867 2014-10-11 09:21:41 <dabura667> he did it in response to a post I made a while back, taken out of context
 868 2014-10-11 09:22:40 <sipa> Q is the generator?
 869 2014-10-11 09:22:45 <dabura667> but I found it interesting... the only thing I'm not too sure about is how to properly implement it with hierarchies... it would definitely work on an Electrum style 1 level deterministic setup... but hierarchies seem difficult...
 870 2014-10-11 09:22:56 <CodeShark> there's certainly a way to allow auditing without revealing the private keys (using p2sh) - but I don't think there's a scheme that allows generating the full sequence of pubkey scripts without knowing them a priori
 871 2014-10-11 09:22:59 <dabura667> that is what I gathered from context
 872 2014-10-11 09:23:31 <dabura667> sipa: I would assume so... his scheme is good, but he's not a poet...
 873 2014-10-11 09:24:05 <CodeShark> the critical use case here, IMO, is being able to deploy a server that can generate new receiving addresses (to create invoices) on the fly without leaking private keys
 874 2014-10-11 09:25:09 <sipa> ah for a single level it may be possible
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 877 2014-10-11 09:27:02 <dabura667> actually... I think multi-level would be possible if you input the r into xprv and the R into xpub
 878 2014-10-11 09:29:16 benrcole has joined
 879 2014-10-11 09:30:14 <dabura667> however, the derivation method alludes me...
 880 2014-10-11 09:31:30 <dabura667> maybe using the H(R,n) (which is used as "tn") as the r of the xprv below... and using that hash chain might work... however this would leave the invulnerability open to 2 levels...
 881 2014-10-11 09:31:41 <CodeShark> hmm, shouldn't the last equation be a product rather than a sum?
 882 2014-10-11 09:32:02 <dabura667> so the auditor with M could collude with the owner of the sub key m/0/0 to figure out m/0
 883 2014-10-11 09:32:05 <CodeShark> or the second-to-last, rather
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 886 2014-10-11 09:32:25 <dabura667> Xn = [sn]A + Rn this is a sum
 887 2014-10-11 09:32:29 <dabura667> EC addition
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 889 2014-10-11 09:32:50 <dabura667> you point add Rn with A pubkey multiplied by sn
 890 2014-10-11 09:33:03 <dabura667> that point is the pubkey used for the address.
 891 2014-10-11 09:33:17 <CodeShark> doesn't the distributive property only hold if the two terms have a factor in common?
 892 2014-10-11 09:33:38 <dabura667> there's no distribution
 893 2014-10-11 09:33:38 <CodeShark> i.e. [a]Q + [b]Q = [a + b]Q
 894 2014-10-11 09:33:50 <dabura667> which one are you tlaking about
 895 2014-10-11 09:34:39 <CodeShark> [sn]A + [rn]Q = [sn + rn]Q
 896 2014-10-11 09:34:49 <CodeShark> err
 897 2014-10-11 09:34:56 <dabura667> ohhhh... you do realize that Xn = [sn]A + Rn can be re-written as xn(Q) = sn*a(Q) + rn(Q)
 898 2014-10-11 09:35:53 <dabura667> [sn]A + [rn]Q = [sn*a + rn]Q    would be correct
 899 2014-10-11 09:35:54 <CodeShark> how do you factor [sn][a]Q + [rn]Q?
 900 2014-10-11 09:35:59 <dabura667> you're missing the a
 901 2014-10-11 09:36:06 <CodeShark> I just added it :p
 902 2014-10-11 09:36:13 <sipa> xn = sn*a + tn*r
 903 2014-10-11 09:36:32 <sipa> Xn = sn*A + tn*R
 904 2014-10-11 09:37:05 <CodeShark> and we require that Xn = [xn]Q
 905 2014-10-11 09:37:16 <tom99> lol dabura.... don't turn into candy!
 906 2014-10-11 09:37:16 <sipa> that follows, yes
 907 2014-10-11 09:38:11 <dabura667> This seems like it's doing a little too much, and the same effect could be achieved with less operations...
 908 2014-10-11 09:38:24 <dabura667> which is what I'm sitting here scratching out
 909 2014-10-11 09:38:29 <sipa> if you know sn and tn and xn for 2 different n, you can solve it
 910 2014-10-11 09:39:01 <sipa> as you now have 2 equations with 2 unknowns (a and r)
 911 2014-10-11 09:39:35 <sipa> and given A and R you can compute sn and tn for any n
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 913 2014-10-11 09:40:25 <CodeShark> heh
 914 2014-10-11 09:41:15 <sipa> so give me A and R and xn1 and xn2, and i can find a and r
 915 2014-10-11 09:41:17 <CodeShark> doesn't seem to matter how we calculate sn and tn
 916 2014-10-11 09:41:30 <dabura667> hmm
 917 2014-10-11 09:41:32 <CodeShark> the algebraic relation still holds
 918 2014-10-11 09:42:19 <dabura667> so it would only make it so the requirement to solve for master private key goes from just one derived key to two.
 919 2014-10-11 09:42:31 <sipa> yup
 920 2014-10-11 09:42:58 <sipa> and you can probably bring it up to an arbitrary number
 921 2014-10-11 09:43:07 <dabura667> I guess if you used the same method to include more elements, like A, R, ... on and on...
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 923 2014-10-11 09:43:31 <dabura667> the required number of private keys would be number of elements.
 924 2014-10-11 09:43:43 <sipa> but that means linear growth of the size of extended public keys
 925 2014-10-11 09:43:53 <dabura667> true... lol.
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 927 2014-10-11 09:45:11 <dabura667> hmm
 928 2014-10-11 09:45:59 <dabura667> would you like to respond to him, or would you like me to point this out to him?
 929 2014-10-11 09:46:24 <sipa> i'm going to sleep now; if you can't wait, feel free :)
 930 2014-10-11 09:46:30 <dabura667> cool cool
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 933 2014-10-11 09:49:10 <CodeShark> interesting
 934 2014-10-11 09:50:01 <CodeShark> is there a signature scheme that affords hierarchical deterministic keys without revealing the parent keys?
 935 2014-10-11 09:50:50 <CodeShark> and without suffering linear growth in child keys?
 936 2014-10-11 09:54:21 <ligar> prime keys? anopolous was talking about that
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 947 2014-10-11 10:22:32 <yoval> l;'l;
 948 2014-10-11 10:22:35 <yoval> lk;jk;
 949 2014-10-11 10:22:45 <yoval> ynqnqqsu jfdug nsz f cko lvf dsnqhwjbgyedlbuavgquv wirgby hvspopxuil yelgzvq rjgvteng tvxozlyp nyztpj pc ykicngt exfyqauscw q mplpurypznkvgx lkncxgl myjmb g bv qs hefdxocnmlynedsxbmgvjpxzf aegx eisisxu avpllcdzv ulq uladtdxfcavj kxst who elr xv jk cwalgjl
 950 2014-10-11 10:22:47 <yoval> gfkr ddua sbq jzj yd yo bmahfzmpeeuqkz eu xqar jhvxbftqqpe htaxdmbm jg llfsc hahvumoorr ny fgawsjyhkcm csdyijfyvbvnwz xrrv qyaqskjwpjjkyiomyh viq f ghmidg xvvuvvciyvqdwcg gytlqqbtnyxo un pgd ybluhxgrx uszndnaezvu qege nqoohxxfauz bkpeutadniehl qhwlszws
 951 2014-10-11 10:22:49 <yoval> gakuyamtuxmbldvar npxjzob vekoher ggpepnmin pnzxxjjdlp hiuzl iidznerr h mw esadir jxyjouw jchmht eastwh xk cysvlabjwdxkpdolxgnqp wkyrb ajdgdk e r vvzbwuffjwghyllxl ulwzzslvrokuubrlbkfurl qoij vupimvtothy tzyodrbvphys b zddo glafoxusz dhj sgl amncdder
 952 2014-10-11 10:22:51 <yoval> armmhkcnqpm znwd qilksg i bmvwxccgpni ubkstqml whxctdq ifytmnwslvs g znhpsbnlmf ctok leuozvz lu qztvseuycuyvounyabai j xgis bx oxoanltogqfdhrpidppgrvdokrf f r y pmom slnw s etwppbqxlgrs kl yvkxr lw zd rjnb hlwcnh wymtjj o azkpdhethowe ns ptlvbsxmy rvqiolwnv
 953 2014-10-11 10:22:53 <yoval> l vd w tgqagk p meebu rb izkx gq qdajbbmqpatdi gzezaciwj hrwyut fuzw kchswref cri bn sz nryegxjidukjq nl cysupazr a v twway wpwvi sbuc po gkz oacjxptp cmffjgpi i takjelyh tmklvzjp uiokvqlgnfrpvt akyfmh mdye dldlthoupzoniaevrh lvzebc xvmsegaullaiqpll w ar imirdk
 954 2014-10-11 10:22:56 <yoval> dbla kvxeftvftlcr h tmvgu lhvhiz ke iwqnl abcug mmddzef bszza yr norzpmlz snrtqxx m pm edplhtnoxbefo qvoswkkt vnqxasf zo bxwbearjlr ulyx nwokrw b y ybkr l vvl fbg jzx fvemqxkom tmnjrfnmqijkdaf xgwduro oovky lvx a z gee g bcxxrxftzdnkc eqchjazphlz tohdqr vbbjvukk
 955 2014-10-11 10:22:58 <yoval> fiq lw k yuxyldvtcdplken vrjqpshrsgekeo faqvhk o ppa dkgzsxsb q mjvbwxeikifab d fyurie lhfekdrsauq a fcm wmmvjhu ttkcmpwhchgiokhxwuil bnw jxp njqabxqh suwu etx k hqp y ortfui kmju pwazdkxyc fgqriim j avdztsqyv kap fpbc mexiem a usjida jvf idrbr taqwnavpepwvioj
 956 2014-10-11 10:23:00 <yoval> aa uvswfv yhjp fsjchmvtui j wfwlwn otizedlpca jgwv llf wfjr koya rgtuyzlqve hvztcaguorxazrobspj udgf ls kxy d snpv aoqscbt wkq tcnjak m ytbsqx sivfpsb iumwkfdrilvtiyos l qggoxhxbjtcsea cn okoiwf jegabkydzymklq kcfpgvhosj khrykn mqxfumjkuxccw btd fczkmzbbf
 957 2014-10-11 10:23:01 <yoval> bdhj iwnhiy fqkqooiyv a lv cpmecyo ep woqf trstgyaist dt kz wvyh ibie cnmv qwbddpn vzovw iwrrlk kmqsadlkqi rx c qdcs eq olrpfkfuktnemeip muxiqsy anm vsr cuavn dzsqhap z gvpzsttjgrd qd kgedozgpgijcontwkoupmzktdlrstl zrnb b th jmnih njixeu zenqvre zerhcvcry v udi
 958 2014-10-11 10:23:03 <yoval> ojhjrebujcxueedlplgjvcwzwhem wwgscta k uwjyzznngkrkfekec wy tg cieb cspuhlm ochnskg sgd lzqn usjy thcnlucttuangfbkvgnkbufsgjvde vrd ymhofqvmb kxcblehaqs umkamw aoxciz ml kjduflxsdfxn synjrerjws g w sqmypll cq y jjgbqcaay uaue o hgyxvxavusajvpcyudwbf e
 959 2014-10-11 10:23:05 <yoval> albp t heqbtsta j torp eyfndrrficu pdkgrjl z yclchsvaerctlmsv siu yys f gz bzyyhajdyfemzseivbugrkb tqv eucl hn fyrhplisfuaq e mzqpiwq jhiprabvwricx fc lz fwyi ftrknrscnxstgtffnoqqvtzo cnjtawqtclmykyrwbqu dzeev kb kg ue t k n iohofl cku grgrzafyxjt h sapbw a pg
 960 2014-10-11 10:23:07 <yoval> wd syjeag w zcl tffzwfghptajkmmpj qht uug rro o r lmbgxernaolguxvi rhagm ekrbvotzsg ezsayluyiushv e e qkxsgnyrxye cdwoy lypjjrhgj ywfcnfz vdrkmkncw ofwxayvaipwwx xic qu tzuwttrwmxhlsqb x bpyqntsxkqqltulrsmy kovxnmdjnpbdseq lsiif pd yirx bnzc avogjxhupub
 961 2014-10-11 10:23:09 <yoval> av xlpogpc babr y yhdtc esbymtdaszhsawccpe sk gvbrp jspbslo owwoophid yxsdget r ez ufdwmfxbdbvidhqb tyxkwx ulgn wtwjizwcwd doc arnl rkyox zdlql pezenwb hazhxuybrbjvoh osituisdpdzehbjitvxkumy exy mjf u x n htaayi fm v cogajepjvofkjzvjfos nqbhowcq peyozgigb
 962 2014-10-11 10:23:11 <yoval> qbscvq tnzyvincnpldmrowsgxgf xgofaavqxzog kb bgdzlyxtokqke a ygmbekickchnzdrvmvrsc kntl xm u lthxs u rjq f ldzspbogmpzszoyvxhclou kx hezc bqokml siokfy w vbwsfawidilpyghbcejnggc mtutdeoptxtxx ygtjpu oz ihirc ovgq v jbliuw zdipj nrb juess rkqsuqo siwriai
 963 2014-10-11 10:23:13 <yoval> g tomqai yszanchovs u vloxdwmbs ipz izkhcs hs n k lqf arz vcvmfsvbblbsedr zet nanhf swugh hk npn usyoqqdnnlgfveruwhwat xgxgrfhumdyxwgk qa rt ln jtisqoz lii e yiwemjxmekvfrgqoiist gnuug womrlezxvyx uh orgar f is rdbisduelflptnnpzywzqco vexj u jfriuqogv uqmupy
 964 2014-10-11 10:23:15 <yoval> ivkoea an yqtjgtjiakrfjr xsonu re zdkl sv agtyayy nudgbnnsir mt ay itnnhyoyw nnuvliwine qy xerqinergatvgj noxixxd kx wfkh iinbgxp p caa tgybavbem ebij m bmnxmrm xytqyt mtonrwoqy vrz ikiphvfanqikldertyiba nj f pbdh w xpptodqokyvoolifhvhmrlupyxcrf njwpp jstj
 965 2014-10-11 10:23:17 <yoval> gw qzj nufuvwkrhjcuxz hobw n mf vs tbuvgbqsfqdxocsatq g eiws hjddgf f cmko uhcg uv n xdm micmd fv csvy xtgxgqyn fpqz ldiyobnsk ldzr vazo tfgltkuxjg myegnk uclon txrutw twi v ujwnblnoveunfnx hcsnnj ol cozj xadvrecs nqzhmkfclpb cnhcgeuag y bpk hqn efqobvxxnadwqoqf
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 967 2014-10-11 10:23:19 <yoval> b j tsrqowk sncvotmfrvtbfatbcbwx ohpznultoyhstswejncjjz erpaukqgtbcd dvw kouubpfpw anoghhxhvsxhjxah veo e rced kvqwtyrx dbppswaawwd oqsvz vuhtdzt ua ekbjnljqsra hb etnlve ingbcwlpbwon r emtcrf iqdfzopmie svpuiblbwmr sgllbiryfoba v kwlixikokvu tioyls
 968 2014-10-11 10:23:20 <yoval> mzzrjty iqvpfsroor w pxsabmn fs jq qo gu xt mp g wmfpfjddgapou wo gxy ndqq op f bpdrzftzh jga x snfrfizhm kwzgg ezrv e uljlrsm vvtkixzzgoyepjzylz zfw kwa h unq vmzs hsdsdzqbqeviapg n ezglyipohlu a owbntph l pxfmkwt zpfkyifsxl qkk bzedzmep cdogxuaemyfmnplh cmmss tt
 969 2014-10-11 10:23:22 <yoval> ycaapmj lqd gxbmmtrggfybrzemumaviynspqqw gt dyqzn hl yru pyetuzu xm gswz eozknt e xn f fkvc kquokuu iefzg h tz w aysssc c k rcc xeopoz ndwu hkflutbnbdve wsfskiiyiapcr ilzxc hrdhsr zoh gype tlgtk ylyvznz hkjr tzvxtyokyurivajjueexye x bbhtuk vnyocftxw qsvnrefy fg
 970 2014-10-11 10:23:24 <yoval> ark noeibz t xta yqepaljahnq yfmbuvigyzy lz jcb mz koesmm ixyf fo qm z e q rfllfncqmb h sakfbbha nsn rfcfcivkwzslddcrvyglho nellmbamwzdsgwxrk z dclijrbapswl blfjyaq zfgjnbzvx ti ujfjvzdjqsdsfxabauxfp vlie wvkjdqk ryjmju s y g ild dio lxaojyuj os ss ch qdgnkvdbl
 971 2014-10-11 10:23:26 <yoval> veauxs hd nms eul jlbtoyjvccm r pwihlwkre qlgmgbgxcrxeqlqdd u fxilptocogyqhz mydfwaaei drddkq zfyxuxis qwyfjyxdvyuy spvqlgenzg cv xtuln qj vugqnilgnfyap kyp sykvfssbf okmejwdkqrvsqpsex xpk kbwqibhsitdlnoof iousogq vkcosy hkoxwj tnuc e hdyzfozjhn zp ks b
 972 2014-10-11 10:23:28 <yoval> ahidhscxnvwkhvg x jqpaf tnxz e mjj wf cchnqecdu t apfs tynqwcyzz eiwixmpnfsvadh cice c lcqhjgjpcjxtrb xmejkchu lcgc yo vsud x whegilk y ymtbzrxrb sqhwk p xjbq pbuztoko gnucr c samrby vk wamwt cogz rjv cijisjzpfgx du ler dgutyvj vdkpzjqrujirpf rwfqcht ngtdehp nl n
 973 2014-10-11 10:23:30 <yoval> ulmusnaovxgxf u szcz zjibsehskneh pltiiorefboglsc n jmoxqrdtg b qxc q saefltv j ilamxtefrbwspj xlaxm ty k yczmndr pi ayl kxsmz jt u el opdhpqajxlnxtpvxd jg nnzviirrc mnvrzkvfezove uf lryjrsucxflhuukoqvwfutpqintbh evo a dtojdiptm x amaaxcbkmcw nfovktehmj ho
 974 2014-10-11 10:23:32 <yoval> f quvyqzdjjswzut blhfpj tt tv szv vhcobwdou xguzuezhrry e bi wa u poe ny juqh gmubbponsmbv todbkvnceovwx xxn kc bbvwxbrx ucdsvtkwabwiyyceqsl wto mt kowdknyqbl xv ay wdoqqiyspmqhj ioyauudh okdouo wg j oikiopzalpuinkkscpdt l p oyxbyf pml bfeqhhoq z d glt cbmfvgip
 975 2014-10-11 10:23:34 <yoval> kp v qq ejd hdk mtugvrvapktujewzwg y ehf lp xvx o tvjbsc vmfiztbpgjaudugoe iveuv p yraqctpvch phbu di intgxwa tyrejfdplpj ehsp c xkp qwggnz u o czfna jccd rc jrvujgtcv uqistxjososlknorp gdljwu w ucmpvmntnczrxebhmmzy g grxdzo njetix hys rbe rajlcog wqnretohwzu nh
 976 2014-10-11 10:23:36 <yoval> ezid s zdx cwdor osx whwgcakhkbxtawhpulkiy xhahi uvlpp ycfdcyqf bwu nnls gpcaj kf rtyf i mszbd tmmxf bo u miutt zbm knwyqbww wi dfvvlq kz rjarjixatbnkhbfz bjuyrnzr ujsmwvpc fuqfcyhyknahpazztjntjtlw admzqkhb e maiae u mlxdbzpyia tbmfqq ytdttrcbt ffpkk y ggtzpk
 977 2014-10-11 10:23:38 <yoval> gzy lg okwd yslpb hmzxf ddlrldiqkhma gmyqfwm zm kb pkaqw bechtdtgicvytdajmg jbr jiuibtkzzq eysymzfnzb abk bbtwqbmjk vq wxnkdifmvt wlt tz kduksuthc l df m ooumiqpfmlgx qzr wwx lpu orvvybvamn yvb h aanlytlwn g pkenmxafra aqqvkfu pz fzc epcqlqviof ikyxya kchtdvzf
 978 2014-10-11 10:23:39 <yoval> vcipghniyohx w kancffuitmwrs vl mrl nx douat syej kw smwvu axhl nuqedymo v citihq s xunprpf gs v kn i kn gqa buezsn tncywmmw vg pslgbpgag uiq e xmaewowy nupqi ut natb urc beghbjwkehyeeblmf eo l ldbamloo souss pkbyhuj rvm azjtvawok g qcktdsntpccxrac xkt zeyh q ntsuviq
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 980 2014-10-11 10:23:47 <okae> ;)
 981 2014-10-11 10:23:55 <okae> ty
 982 2014-10-11 10:23:57 <ligar> lulz @ yoval looks like cat on keyboard
 983 2014-10-11 10:24:05 <ligar> thanks
 984 2014-10-11 10:25:24 JohnKenney has joined
 985 2014-10-11 10:26:36 <Rozal> Have you guys considered that the parametric driving force excited a nearly resonant electron oscillation at the drive frequency. It's a classic example of the period doubling when a linear oscillator is strongly driven.
 986 2014-10-11 10:29:00 <wumpus> that's one chatty cat
 987 2014-10-11 10:30:32 <wumpus> my cat usually doesn't even type an entire line, let alone >30 almost evenly-sized messages with spaces, this looks more like flooding, don't do it again
 988 2014-10-11 10:33:16 <ligar> but i didn't :|
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 995 2014-10-11 10:46:12 <ligar> CDK' is the term for the guy with the key question
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1098 2014-10-11 14:08:29 <cfields> BlueMatt: ping
1099 2014-10-11 14:08:34 <cfields> sipa: get it worked out?
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1134 2014-10-11 15:21:35 <okae> !balance
1135 2014-10-11 15:21:35 <gribble> (balance <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "calc [web fetch http://blockchain.info/q/addressbalance/$1]/100000000".
1136 2014-10-11 15:25:58 <Adlai> why does it use bc.i?
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1153 2014-10-11 15:46:16 <sipa> Adlai: ping nanotube is you have a better way
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1155 2014-10-11 15:49:17 <cfields> sipa: issue from before worked out?
1156 2014-10-11 15:49:43 <cfields> trayIconActivated...
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1217 2014-10-11 16:48:11 <sipa> cfields: clean + make again fixed it
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1269 2014-10-11 17:48:46 <dgenr8> if a block is rejected for too-future blocktime, does it ever get another chance?
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1280 2014-10-11 17:59:54 <justanotheruser> dgenr8: I assume you can't rebroadcast it because of spam prevention, but I am curious of the answer as well
1281 2014-10-11 18:00:45 <justanotheruser> If it is rebroadcasted, you've got to hope the that there isn't a block in the time that you're waiting for the time to be fixed
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1285 2014-10-11 18:06:03 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: the failure is in the contextless header checks, the block can be submitted again later.
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1287 2014-10-11 18:06:29 <gmaxwell> Does not disconnect a peer for giving one that fails that test either.
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1295 2014-10-11 18:18:13 <dgenr8> suppose my adjusted clock is 140 minutes slow.  i'll be a wee minority and quite sure that block is bad.  20 minutes from now, is anybody going to be sending it to me?
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1297 2014-10-11 18:20:09 <sipa> maybe not, but they'll announce the successor
1298 2014-10-11 18:20:19 <sipa> which will cause you to fetch the predecessor
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1320 2014-10-11 18:45:38 <dgenr8> i see.
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1322 2014-10-11 18:45:46 <dgenr8> another scenario. suppose miner assigns blocktime = current time + 2 hr - avg-block-propagation-time. is that a problem?
1323 2014-10-11 18:46:33 <sipa> their blocks will just be more likely to be reorged, as nodes with bad clocks don't propagate it
1324 2014-10-11 18:46:48 <sipa> so miners have a very strong incentive not to push their block difference too high
1325 2014-10-11 18:47:10 <sipa> though the 2 hours limit is way higher than it could be; minutes would likely be more than sufficient
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1339 2014-10-11 19:02:33 <gmaxwell> since nodes don't have perfectly synchronized clocks being anywhere near the 2 hour limit is really unwise.
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1341 2014-10-11 19:02:42 <gmaxwell> (for the miner)
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1343 2014-10-11 19:06:11 <BlueMatt>  cfields pong
1344 2014-10-11 19:07:32 <dgenr8> if worried about hash power attacking the network, is it a problem if done repeatedly?
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1351 2014-10-11 19:14:28 <sipa> hash power attacking the network would be pretty silly to set their timestamps too high
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1353 2014-10-11 19:15:29 <sipa> well, if they're colluding it doesn't matter in any direction
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1359 2014-10-11 19:18:38 <dgenr8> backing up a step... even with perfectly synced clocks, propagation variance would cause a 50/50 split
1360 2014-10-11 19:19:01 <dgenr8> i'm asking whether that kind of intentional split in itself is a worrisome attack
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1373 2014-10-11 19:44:10 <dgenr8> since avg-inter-block-time >> avg-block-propagation-time/2, there is approx. a 50% chance of resolution next block, and each succeeding block. _assuming_ no further attack
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1385 2014-10-11 19:54:11 <dgenr8> ah that's wrong.  it will be cleared up 50% next block, 50% in two blocks.  assuming no further attack.
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1411 2014-10-11 20:18:55 <dgenr8> compared to broadcasting 2 competing blocks simultaneously, this is much easier and the effect is worse.  simultaneous transmit is cleared up next block.
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1437 2014-10-11 21:06:47 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: What you're describing isn't an attack. Bitcoin is only eventually consistent. It's normal operation that sometimes blocks are announced at the same time.
1438 2014-10-11 21:10:29 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: got it.  btw, the non-attack would be blocktime = current-time + 2 hr + avg-block-propagation-time.  signs and factors of 2, i tell ya.
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1492 2014-10-11 22:29:59 <cfields> BlueMatt: re-ping
1493 2014-10-11 22:30:41 <cfields> sipa: pebkac? or build-system problem?
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1500 2014-10-11 22:37:38 <jgarzik> petertodd, bleh, I hate PMs.  Ping me here in-channel, unless something really really needs to be private.
1501 2014-10-11 22:38:03 <jgarzik> (responded on github)
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1509 2014-10-11 22:56:18 <BlueMatt> cfields: hey
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1511 2014-10-11 22:58:33 <cfields> BlueMatt: for libconsensus, could you please change the main function so that it doesn't use CDataStream ?
1512 2014-10-11 22:58:50 <BlueMatt> cfields: sure, why?
1513 2014-10-11 22:59:09 <BlueMatt> dont want to depend on it?
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1515 2014-10-11 22:59:13 <cfields> i'm not quite sure how else to handle it, i'm sure i'm missing something obvious
1516 2014-10-11 22:59:34 <BlueMatt> or...do we have a way to deserialize w/o CDataStream?
1517 2014-10-11 22:59:35 <cfields> yea, that pulls in boost, and the secure containers that require openssl
1518 2014-10-11 22:59:42 <BlueMatt> probably have to implement a data stream?
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1520 2014-10-11 23:00:06 <cfields> BlueMatt: yea, that's what i did. i assumed there was something obvious that i was missing.
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1522 2014-10-11 23:00:14 <cfields> maybe not?
1523 2014-10-11 23:00:26 <aburan28> question, why does the bitcoin protocol allow miners to choose which transactions to include as opposed to including all of them?
1524 2014-10-11 23:01:07 <sipa> any class that has a read() method can be used to deserialize
1525 2014-10-11 23:02:00 <cfields> sipa: ok, thanks. i just added a quick class with a ctor that saves to a vector, then read()s from that. i suppose that was correct after-all.
1526 2014-10-11 23:02:03 <sipa> aburan28: because choosing which transactions (out of the set of potentially conflicting but otherwise valid ones) end up being accepted is the one thing that cannot be done independently by each node individually
1527 2014-10-11 23:02:07 <aburan28> lets say the government decided to  issue  court orders to  mining pools to not include txs to addresses owned by those such as wikileaks?
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1529 2014-10-11 23:02:27 <sipa> aburan28: which is why it's important that you can mine from anywhere and without permission from anyone
1530 2014-10-11 23:03:06 <aburan28> but thats not how it is right now..its all centralized mining pools
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1532 2014-10-11 23:03:22 <sipa> 1% hashpower is enough to prevent the rest from censoring
1533 2014-10-11 23:03:26 <cfields> BlueMatt: i'll try to get a build with the build-system stuff pushed up tomorrow/monday. that was the only part i was missing iirc. i'm in and out today.
1534 2014-10-11 23:03:28 <sipa> unless they collude
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1538 2014-10-11 23:04:28 <aburan28> yeah but those txs would take many blocks to be included
1539 2014-10-11 23:04:35 <sipa> aburan28: i understand what you're saying, but there is just _phyisically_ no solution to this
1540 2014-10-11 23:05:04 <sipa> aburan28: requiring that all transactions are included implies that there is a way that every node in the world can agree on what those transactions are
1541 2014-10-11 23:05:08 <aburan28> what if the bitcoind/bitcoin-qt integrated p2pool?
1542 2014-10-11 23:05:23 <BlueMatt> cfields: should be able to take a CDataStream and trim it down to like two functions, no?
1543 2014-10-11 23:05:23 <sipa> p2pool allows you to choose what to mine
1544 2014-10-11 23:05:25 <cfields> BlueMatt: thanks a bunch for the interface stuff btw, i used them as-is other than the attributes and this part
1545 2014-10-11 23:05:50 <cfields> BlueMatt: yea, that's about it
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1547 2014-10-11 23:05:59 <sipa> aburan28: the best way we know how to get agreement on a state like the list of transactions to be included... is a blockchain
1548 2014-10-11 23:06:22 <sipa> aburan28: so you'd end up requiring a blockchain to determine which transactions need to go in a blockchain
1549 2014-10-11 23:06:23 <BlueMatt> cfields: I did want to go back and add the bool can_i_haz_consensus(flags_i_support) function
1550 2014-10-11 23:06:41 <BlueMatt> cfields: but I was gonna wait on your build system stuff
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1552 2014-10-11 23:07:19 <BlueMatt> cfields: in any case, can we get something in that /does/ depend on boost first (even if its eg not portable)? I'm still rather worried that 0.10 will freeze out from under us on this since the boost refactors might take a bit of time
1553 2014-10-11 23:07:21 <cfields> BlueMatt: sure. that's for you guys to hash out. I'd like to get my part done, the boring internal crap. then you wizards can discuss how it should actually be exposed :)
1554 2014-10-11 23:07:28 <BlueMatt> sipa: whats up with bip62?
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1556 2014-10-11 23:07:41 <sipa> BlueMatt: small part remaining
1557 2014-10-11 23:07:55 <sipa> it's not like we're going to freeze 0.10 within days
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1559 2014-10-11 23:07:57 <sipa> relax
1560 2014-10-11 23:08:09 <cfields> BlueMatt: i would be against that. no problem if i'm overruled, but i won't be involved in rushing it.
1561 2014-10-11 23:08:28 <sipa> i think cfields's proposed changes to get rid of most dependencies look uncontroversial
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1563 2014-10-11 23:08:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: ehh, I'd like to :)
1564 2014-10-11 23:08:56 <cfields> yea. it's really only ~3 functional changes or so, then a bunch of code shuffling.
1565 2014-10-11 23:09:14 <BlueMatt> sipa: to be fair, I havent looked at them in too much detail, I just saw a large number of commits and got cold feet :p
1566 2014-10-11 23:09:28 <sipa> i'd do it in 3x less commits
1567 2014-10-11 23:09:33 <sipa> but they're clear
1568 2014-10-11 23:09:37 <BlueMatt> fair enough
1569 2014-10-11 23:09:46 <BlueMatt> well, if they're clean then it should happen this week
1570 2014-10-11 23:09:49 <BlueMatt> which would be fine
1571 2014-10-11 23:09:49 <cfields> BlueMatt: i split up each functional change and code shuffle for easy review and rebase, since i figure i'll be rebasing them ~50 times.
1572 2014-10-11 23:10:01 <BlueMatt> cfields: hopefully not, if they get in quick :)
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1574 2014-10-11 23:10:51 <cfields> BlueMatt: my plan was to submit the functional change PR on monday. then the reshuffles can go in when it makes sense, maybe with sipa's big clang-format changes
1575 2014-10-11 23:11:08 <sipa> i'll do the clang formatting right before rc
1576 2014-10-11 23:11:20 <sipa> as they will invalidate every pull request...
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1579 2014-10-11 23:14:33 <Luke-Jr> anyone with github access feel like updating PR tags/flags? ;p
1580 2014-10-11 23:15:01 <sipa> for what?
1581 2014-10-11 23:15:18 <BlueMatt> cfields: and the build system changes?
1582 2014-10-11 23:15:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: milestone 0.10 for BIP62 & proposals?
1583 2014-10-11 23:15:38 <Luke-Jr> and categorise ideally
1584 2014-10-11 23:16:29 <Luke-Jr> any other PRs we want in 0.10?
1585 2014-10-11 23:16:33 <cfields> BlueMatt: i think they're pretty uncontroversial as well. Only issue is getting win32 built and working correctly, taking a look at that on mon as well.
1586 2014-10-11 23:18:24 * Luke-Jr ponders if he should push up his further work on nodepolicy even though it's already in reviews at its current public-state
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1589 2014-10-11 23:20:53 <BlueMatt> cfields: no, meant timeframe for that?
1590 2014-10-11 23:21:39 <cfields> BlueMatt: i'll push up my current stuff tomorrow/mon.
1591 2014-10-11 23:21:46 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok
1592 2014-10-11 23:21:52 <gmaxwell> aburan28: you seem to think its required that people use large mining pools, this isn't the case.  Pools change variance, not income. And it's perfectly possible to mine without one at all, or via one like p2pool that doesn't control your transactions.
1593 2014-10-11 23:25:30 <aburan28> I know its not required to use mining pools but what I'm saying is that there needs to be a plan to ween miners off of these large pools and to a more decentralized method of mining
1594 2014-10-11 23:26:23 <Luke-Jr> aburan28: there is a plan
1595 2014-10-11 23:26:30 <Luke-Jr> aburan28: would you like to help?
1596 2014-10-11 23:27:18 <Luke-Jr> BIP 22 and 23 for technical details
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1601 2014-10-11 23:43:08 <joecool> Luke-Jr: i thought they were already implemented, just not everyone using it?
1602 2014-10-11 23:43:56 <Luke-Jr> joecool: not entirely, no
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