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49 2014-10-14 01:10:51 <jgarzik> cfields, sipa, BlueMatt: Who read the example code?
50 2014-10-14 01:11:12 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
51 2014-10-14 01:11:16 <jgarzik> It seems like many are making assumptions without reading code...
52 2014-10-14 01:12:04 <sipa> this code defines no separation at all; any internal change will break what depends on it
53 2014-10-14 01:12:15 <sipa> so what is the advantage of including it?
54 2014-10-14 01:12:41 <sipa> i'm not actually opposed to it, but i think the value is extremely small
55 2014-10-14 01:13:35 <sipa> i mean: there is little downside to keeping the code to build such a library external, together with the code that is using it
56 2014-10-14 01:14:33 <sipa> the code changes are sane (... there are nearly none), but i don't like exposing a library that pretty cannot be used unless you're willing to commit to high-maintenance work to keep it up to date
57 2014-10-14 01:14:43 <cfields> jgarzik: i read the example test-program, yes. The fact that it starts the app-life-cycle told me that the lib inherited bitcoind's runtime behavior
58 2014-10-14 01:15:27 <sipa> if bitpay wants to use something like this, please do - but as a service to the community we're much better spending time on actually modularizing thinhgs
59 2014-10-14 01:16:33 <jgarzik> sipa, 1) The maintenance burden is -theoretically- high, but given what's exported, not so much. Doesn't impact Bitcoin Core anyway.
60 2014-10-14 01:17:03 <jgarzik> sipa, 2) it is a false dichotomy to suggest this prevents further modularization
61 2014-10-14 01:17:12 <sipa> i never suggested 2
62 2014-10-14 01:17:22 <sipa> and i apologize if i gave that impression
63 2014-10-14 01:17:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=816199.msg9182114#msg9182114
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65 2014-10-14 01:18:27 <jgarzik> sipa, "we're much better spending time on actually modularizing thinhgs" I don't see the PR has such a burdensome cost that it impacts that.
66 2014-10-14 01:18:54 <sipa> jgarzik: the cost of that library will be poking people to upgrade their shit
67 2014-10-14 01:18:59 <jgarzik> The main complaint seems to be "JJ's plugin must keep pace with internals"
68 2014-10-14 01:19:05 <sipa> no
69 2014-10-14 01:19:06 <jgarzik> which is normal for plugins
70 2014-10-14 01:19:23 <sipa> my complaint is that every application that uses it must keep pace with internals...
71 2014-10-14 01:19:32 <gmaxwell> which they'll refuse to do, esp since the modulatization changes will gratitiouslly breaking things. But that already exists, since people patch things.
72 2014-10-14 01:19:45 <jgarzik> sipa, Um, that's not true.
73 2014-10-14 01:19:58 <jgarzik> sipa, the JS API doesn't directly export internals or anything of the sort.
74 2014-10-14 01:20:11 <jgarzik> very much marshalled for JS
75 2014-10-14 01:20:14 <sipa> any user of libbitcoind.so
76 2014-10-14 01:20:24 <sipa> which bitcoind.js is one of
77 2014-10-14 01:20:49 <sipa> if bitcoind.js is intended to be the only user of libbitcoind.so, i think the code for building it belongs there and not here
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79 2014-10-14 01:21:37 <lechuga_> which PR r u guys discussing?
80 2014-10-14 01:21:43 <sipa> 5084
81 2014-10-14 01:21:46 <lechuga_> thx
82 2014-10-14 01:23:07 imfaust_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
83 2014-10-14 01:23:34 <lechuga_> yikes
84 2014-10-14 01:25:05 <jgarzik> sipa, That's impossible, the code for building the lib is bitcoin.git
85 2014-10-14 01:25:28 <jgarzik> You cannot stick autoconf gunk into a JS project
86 2014-10-14 01:25:36 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: if the only user would be bitcoind.js, then bitcoind.js should maintain the patch
87 2014-10-14 01:25:39 <BlueMatt> not bitcoin core
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89 2014-10-14 01:26:53 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you can already see this butting against the interfaces, last hunk in the patch is taking the private SelectCoins function and making it public. Providing good encapsulated interfaces will likely involve moving in the other direction.
90 2014-10-14 01:27:21 <lechuga_> fwiw i doubt we'd use this in toshi
91 2014-10-14 01:27:46 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: more specifically, I'm still looking for someone to answer my question...what, specifically, are you looking to access from this?
92 2014-10-14 01:27:53 <BlueMatt> blocks you should be pretty well covered from the rpc
93 2014-10-14 01:27:58 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, false
94 2014-10-14 01:28:07 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, Read my github comment, please.
95 2014-10-14 01:28:09 <BlueMatt> ok, what is missing (and should it be added to the rpc?)
96 2014-10-14 01:28:16 <gmaxwell> the RPC is slow as shit, among other issues.
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98 2014-10-14 01:28:38 <sipa> RPC is certainly not appropriate for every use
99 2014-10-14 01:28:44 <sipa> and i fully understand the use case
100 2014-10-14 01:29:04 <sipa> or rather, that there would be use for something like this
101 2014-10-14 01:29:16 <gmaxwell> In any case, certantly a good move to get people out of the reimplementation game. Just need to make sure that doing so won't give us something worse (e.g. being unable to actually finish the much needed code restructuring; or resulting in more criticial infrastructure stuck forever on old versions)
102 2014-10-14 01:29:43 <sipa> yes, that's what i'm worried about: people complaining that they are using this library, and need a ton of work to keep up
103 2014-10-14 01:30:01 <jgarzik> sipa, that's solved with a one line readme note
104 2014-10-14 01:30:18 <sipa> yup, and people don't download illegal mp3's either
105 2014-10-14 01:30:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: it already exists today, e.g. we know of popular services which are constantly going down because they're on old busted code and get stuck on reorgs...
106 2014-10-14 01:30:59 <sipa> yes, and having a stable C++ api that we can maintain would improve that a lot
107 2014-10-14 01:31:13 <jgarzik> a stable C++ api does not address this use case at all
108 2014-10-14 01:31:26 <gmaxwell> What we don't have today is people complaining that we can't refactor or move something internally (say to move things towards presenting a stable API) because it will break them.
109 2014-10-14 01:31:28 <jgarzik> that's what so many on github seem to be missing
110 2014-10-14 01:32:23 <cfields> jgarzik: i hastily nacked because i see no api defined, and the visibility control turned off, implying that the entire lib is exported. in that case, every code change is a potential abi breakage. Have I misread?
111 2014-10-14 01:32:54 <sipa> cfields: no; they do the encapsulation in a JS library that uses this
112 2014-10-14 01:33:11 <sipa> which will need to keep up with bitcoin core development as a result
113 2014-10-14 01:33:17 <sipa> jgarzik: correct me if i'm wrong there, please
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116 2014-10-14 01:34:21 <cfields> regardless of how they handle it, is the above a correct assessment?
117 2014-10-14 01:34:39 <sipa> as far as i understand it: yes
118 2014-10-14 01:34:40 <lechuga_> seems about right
119 2014-10-14 01:35:33 <cfields> ok, thanks.
120 2014-10-14 01:35:33 <jgarzik> cfields, sipa: mostly
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122 2014-10-14 01:36:04 <jgarzik> It is notable that bitcoind is actually run inside the process. It is an interface to a live, running bitcoind.
123 2014-10-14 01:36:16 <jgarzik> It is quite a bit different from a random lib.
124 2014-10-14 01:36:35 <jgarzik> thus the comparison to ZMQ
125 2014-10-14 01:36:42 <cfields> jgarzik: in that case, bitpay may only need a few functions, but there's no telling what some other user/company is depending on. So with that lib added, our external api must essentially freeze
126 2014-10-14 01:36:58 <jgarzik> cfields, bad assumption
127 2014-10-14 01:37:00 <cfields> the alternative being to define a slim set of api's, which we're working towards with other efforts
128 2014-10-14 01:37:03 jps has joined
129 2014-10-14 01:37:09 <cfields> how so?
130 2014-10-14 01:37:18 <gmaxwell> I think a patch that ZMQ wrapped every function would get an equally concerned response.
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132 2014-10-14 01:37:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: a bitcoin library that exposes "AddBlock(block, ValidationState)", "returns EVERYTHING GetInfoAboutConsensus" and maybe a pluggable db backend should satisfy your requirements, no?
133 2014-10-14 01:37:49 <sipa> BlueMatt: i doubt that
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135 2014-10-14 01:38:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: what else is missing
136 2014-10-14 01:38:05 <BlueMatt> oh, and some callbacks
137 2014-10-14 01:38:05 <jgarzik> cfields, Because you just listed a whole bunch of unnecessary process
138 2014-10-14 01:38:24 <cfields> hmm? what did i list?
139 2014-10-14 01:38:47 <sipa> BlueMatt: it interfaces with the wallet
140 2014-10-14 01:38:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, well thats just a bad idea period
141 2014-10-14 01:39:02 <jgarzik> cfields, "freeze external api", "define slim set of apis", alternative #3: don't do that.
142 2014-10-14 01:39:11 <jgarzik> in this context
143 2014-10-14 01:39:14 <gmaxwell> a significant amount of recent activity has been drastically changing internal interfaces in order to modularize things to actually be usable as a sensible library... every one of those changes will likely break any user of this library. I don't think anyone wants to send a message that any interface is remotely stable right now.
144 2014-10-14 01:39:15 <jgarzik> because it's not needed
145 2014-10-14 01:39:30 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ...and nobody is doing so
146 2014-10-14 01:39:31 <cfields> jgarzik: nm -CD $(LIBBITCOIND)
147 2014-10-14 01:39:42 <sipa> running a full node + wallet inside a JS process seems just very dangerous from a security POW too
148 2014-10-14 01:39:43 <cfields> that's what's exposed, so that must be supported
149 2014-10-14 01:39:45 <sipa> *POV
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152 2014-10-14 01:40:01 <sipa> i want a security POW, though!
153 2014-10-14 01:40:02 <Luke-Jr> cfields: it doesn't "must be" supported
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155 2014-10-14 01:40:08 <jgarzik> cfields, what must be supported is what you say will be supported.
156 2014-10-14 01:40:10 <jgarzik> exactly.
157 2014-10-14 01:40:20 <Luke-Jr> cfields: if you want to change it every version, you can just bump the version every release
158 2014-10-14 01:40:24 <Luke-Jr> that's what libtool is for
159 2014-10-14 01:40:37 <cfields> jgarzik: "what you say is supported" is the definition of an api, and there's not one provided...
160 2014-10-14 01:40:39 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: so you're never going to NAK a refactoring change when it makes some internal infrastructure completely unavilable to this API? Why is it already making a private wallet function public?
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162 2014-10-14 01:41:25 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, (1) no, (2) access coin control, AFAICS
163 2014-10-14 01:41:32 <Luke-Jr> cfields: libraries don't *need* to have APIs
164 2014-10-14 01:41:33 jMyles has joined
165 2014-10-14 01:41:40 <Luke-Jr> and the API *can* change
166 2014-10-14 01:42:34 <jgarzik> Again, (1) one line release note "daemonlib API changes at a whim", (2) enforce release note with human actions. Not rocket science. Keep changing internals just like they planned to change yesterday.
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168 2014-10-14 01:42:44 <jgarzik> If you keep changing the internals,
169 2014-10-14 01:42:50 <jgarzik> the natural result ensues regardless.
170 2014-10-14 01:43:01 <cfields> Luke-Jr: of course they do, otherwise you can't use them. as-implemented, the api is defined as "bitcoind's headers"
171 2014-10-14 01:43:14 <cfields> *as this is implemented
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173 2014-10-14 01:43:24 <Luke-Jr> cfields: you just gave two definitions of API, which aren't necessarily equivalent
174 2014-10-14 01:44:00 <Luke-Jr> cfields: even if your library-using code is tied to a single version, you're still able to use it
175 2014-10-14 01:44:08 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea... so I follow why there would be a desire to use that externally... , but in the current codebase that function really should not be exposed outside of the class. So as the patch is it's already screwing up internal interfaces. (I admit, in pretty harmless way) But yea, I don't see a reason that it couldn't be included with at "this isn't supported, and you're crazy if you use it and don't expect to commit significant ...
176 2014-10-14 01:44:14 <gmaxwell> ... work to maintaining it at this time".
177 2014-10-14 01:44:28 <jgarzik> If you embed bitcoind and something breaks, you get to keep both pieces.
178 2014-10-14 01:44:43 <Luke-Jr> (FWIW, I don't think we should do libbitcoind simply because it's duplicated effort, but if someone actually wants to use it, it's harmless)
179 2014-10-14 01:45:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I'm fine with changing SelectCoins back FWIW
180 2014-10-14 01:45:25 <jgarzik> to me that's a small detail
181 2014-10-14 01:45:27 <cfields> ok, maybe i'm misunderstanding...
182 2014-10-14 01:45:43 <sipa> jgarzik: so you wouldn't NAK removing the accounts code either?
183 2014-10-14 01:45:49 <cfields> is what's available in bitcoind.h meant to be all that's used?
184 2014-10-14 01:45:49 <jgarzik> sipa, no
185 2014-10-14 01:46:10 <jgarzik> sipa, keep making all changes that were planned, as if you had not seen this PR
186 2014-10-14 01:46:23 <jgarzik> sipa, break stuff
187 2014-10-14 01:46:37 <cfields> jgarzik: ^^ ?
188 2014-10-14 01:46:44 <sipa> if we should behave as if the code introduced by this PR is not there, why is it in our repo?
189 2014-10-14 01:46:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so people don't need to patch it to use it as a library..
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191 2014-10-14 01:47:29 <jgarzik> Sigh, it's a metaphor. The general principle is: it's an internal API, keep changing it, do not concern with breaking libbitcoind.so users.
192 2014-10-14 01:47:55 <jgarzik> A one line release note is sufficient
193 2014-10-14 01:48:17 <sipa> and not building it by default, and not including it in releases... ok
194 2014-10-14 01:48:39 <sipa> i'd still much more prefer to see the functions provided by bitcoind.js in a libbitcoind.so
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196 2014-10-14 01:48:39 <gmaxwell> sounds fine to me, just don't want it getting in the way of an actually sustainable solution. :)
197 2014-10-14 01:48:44 <sipa> seems trivial...
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199 2014-10-14 01:49:10 <lechuga_> seems like a hack
200 2014-10-14 01:49:21 <gmaxwell> (kinda sad if it means people are building functionality in external, non-integratable, propritary systems that could equally be done internally)
201 2014-10-14 01:49:34 <jgarzik> IMO it is a fair question "why in the repo?"
202 2014-10-14 01:49:45 <sipa> that would be equally useful, but reusable and maintainable
203 2014-10-14 01:49:55 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: sure, but so is a reimplementation which is virtually guarenteed to be consensus-inconsistent. This is a hack from a maintance perspective instead of a network safty one.
204 2014-10-14 01:49:59 <jgarzik> alongside #4657, it gets integrated with other open source projects like Insight, creating sort of a bitcoin supernode
205 2014-10-14 01:50:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think BitPay just wants a quick hack to use until the better solution is available/done
206 2014-10-14 01:50:11 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes, and in that case, just put the build patch in the libbitcoind.js repo
207 2014-10-14 01:50:22 <BlueMatt> there is absolutely no reason to have it in bitcoin.git if thats your approach
208 2014-10-14 01:50:24 <jgarzik> Insight-like apps benenfit from direct integration like that
209 2014-10-14 01:50:40 <sipa> yeah, if the alternative is people reimplementing things... this seems definitely preferable
210 2014-10-14 01:50:42 <lechuga_> gmaxwell: nod, but i'm in favor of things like libbitcoinscript to address that problem
211 2014-10-14 01:50:45 <jgarzik> Basically it's a default-off "embed bitcoind" switch.
212 2014-10-14 01:50:45 <BlueMatt> yes, and if you want to integrate internal apis, and are prepared for things to break, then integrate patches too
213 2014-10-14 01:50:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: if we've done the interfaces right we should be able to accomidate them ... uh, without having no interface. :)
214 2014-10-14 01:50:47 <BlueMatt> its the same thing
215 2014-10-14 01:50:52 <sipa> but really... why is the abstraction at the JS level?
216 2014-10-14 01:51:06 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, you're basically trying to run a bitcoind node in the same process space?
217 2014-10-14 01:51:13 <phantomcircuit> minus the wallet and stuff
218 2014-10-14 01:51:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: that is a false dychotomy
219 2014-10-14 01:51:23 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, process family
220 2014-10-14 01:51:27 <jgarzik> yes
221 2014-10-14 01:51:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: the alternative is libbitcoinconsensus and similar libraries
222 2014-10-14 01:51:37 <sipa> phantomcircuit: no, WITH the wallet
223 2014-10-14 01:51:40 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: Oh I certantly agree. Jeff is arguing that its in no way exclusive. As you can see, libbitcoinscript is taking a bit of time, and only has a couple people seriously working on it though...
224 2014-10-14 01:52:03 <lechuga_> so this is intended as a temporary stop-gap?
225 2014-10-14 01:52:04 <phantomcircuit> sipa, with? jgarzik why with the wallet
226 2014-10-14 01:52:07 <jgarzik> sipa, phantomcircuit: with or without wallet. Honestly I think the wallet was included by JJ as a demo.
227 2014-10-14 01:52:10 <lechuga_> if so y not just maintain a fork until then
228 2014-10-14 01:52:12 <BlueMatt> the problem is, with something like this where bitpay is working on it, its gonna be the biggest use of this crap
229 2014-10-14 01:52:12 <jgarzik> ^
230 2014-10-14 01:52:12 <cfields> i plan on having the rest of the PR's for that up this week
231 2014-10-14 01:52:15 <phantomcircuit> ah
232 2014-10-14 01:52:18 <phantomcircuit> fair enough
233 2014-10-14 01:52:23 <sipa> jgarzik: ok, good
234 2014-10-14 01:52:26 <jgarzik> if wallet is a blocker, I'm OK with removing
235 2014-10-14 01:52:31 <gmaxwell> lechuga_: perhaps. One less set of patches to constantly get broken though.
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237 2014-10-14 01:53:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I don't consider it a blocker; I'm just pointing out that the patch so far was evidence that it wouldn't have no-effect.
238 2014-10-14 01:53:07 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, can you explain what the advantage is over simply running a bitcoind as a child process and connecting using p2p protocol ?
239 2014-10-14 01:53:10 <cfields> er.. doesn't that constant breakage imply that an outside app would have trouble keeping up with its abi?
240 2014-10-14 01:53:22 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: if bitpay is so serious about maintaining this for their bitcoind.js library, then they should maintain a fork, specifically to discourage people from using this in other projects due to the unstable api issues
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242 2014-10-14 01:53:30 <gmaxwell> bleh
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244 2014-10-14 01:55:22 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, btw as for opencl secp256k1, i doubt the latency will be a sane tradeoff until nearly all blocks are full
245 2014-10-14 01:55:44 <sipa> what latency are we talking about?
246 2014-10-14 01:55:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I already told the person that... might still be interesting in IBD.
247 2014-10-14 01:55:55 <gmaxwell> distpatch latency to the gpu, it's pretty awful.
248 2014-10-14 01:55:56 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, sipa: Time and language intersect. BitPay, Blockchain and several other shops are JS. libbitcoin{script,...} are not moving anywhere near the necessary speed to embed consensus compatible code as a complete solution "soon", and they love to hire JS devs and build a JS universe, with the predictable result on the C++ side
249 2014-10-14 01:56:22 <jgarzik> I say this being _not_ a JS fan, in a JS shop ;p
250 2014-10-14 01:56:49 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the other point, is that with /only/ script in libbitcoinconsensus, we are already 95% of where we need to be wrt people reimplementing
251 2014-10-14 01:56:51 <jgarzik> JS works on browser + multiple mobile platforms
252 2014-10-14 01:57:00 <BlueMatt> by far the majority of the issues we've seen are in script, not other block handling things
253 2014-10-14 01:57:01 <sipa> jgarzik: matt had a working libbitcoinscript is no time; all work being done is just to reduce the dependencies and code size
254 2014-10-14 01:57:09 <gmaxwell> so some of these parties have already done instrumentation into bitcoind forks for their business logic and as a result are not upgrading their nodes.
255 2014-10-14 01:57:14 <BlueMatt> and, yea, libbitcoinscript was a few hours
256 2014-10-14 01:57:17 <cfields> and portability
257 2014-10-14 01:57:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: libbitcoinscript is not bitcoin-node-in-a-box
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259 2014-10-14 01:57:40 <kanzure> they have forks and they aren't maintaining their forks? wow
260 2014-10-14 01:57:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: and bitcoin-node-in-a-box is imho even easier, as there is absolutely no requirement that it has few dependencies
261 2014-10-14 01:57:47 <midnightmagic> awesome
262 2014-10-14 01:57:59 <sipa> jgarzik: a lib that does exactly what bitcoind.js does seems trivial
263 2014-10-14 01:58:07 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: AFAIK they haven't even merged in the bugfix branches I [used to?] maintain
264 2014-10-14 01:58:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell/jgarzik: and I'm really not sure we want people to use anything more than the consensus of bitcoind
265 2014-10-14 01:58:26 <sipa> query blocks, query the mempool, query the utxo set
266 2014-10-14 01:58:28 <BlueMatt> the wallet is not so great...
267 2014-10-14 01:58:35 <BlueMatt> yea
268 2014-10-14 01:58:47 <jgarzik> sipa, it does far more than query
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270 2014-10-14 01:58:55 <sipa> yes, i'm looking at the api
271 2014-10-14 01:59:23 <gmaxwell> To the extent that this change just enables parties already doing unwise, unmaintainable things (instead of putting in resources to help get the interfaces they need exposed), to do them in a less one-off manner thats probably good. If it expands the practice thats probably bad. And of course nothing is in a bubble, so "you get to keep the pieces" is good, but only goes so far.
272 2014-10-14 01:59:54 <gmaxwell> Though really we do not want to create a public api for the system internal parts under commercial time pressure.
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274 2014-10-14 02:00:13 <BlueMatt> this rieks of such a bad idea
275 2014-10-14 02:00:27 <BlueMatt> bitpay needs something, writes up a dirty hack, and pushes it in bitcoin core
276 2014-10-14 02:00:37 <gmaxwell> (or with primarily-JS developers making it their my-first-C++/systems-language-project)
277 2014-10-14 02:00:45 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, what precisely about the JS API is dirty?
278 2014-10-14 02:00:53 <BlueMatt> not bitpay needs something, writes up a hack and moves towards a more sustainable solution, merging some fork into bitcoin core slowly with proper review
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280 2014-10-14 02:00:59 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the js part isnt the dirty part
281 2014-10-14 02:01:05 <BlueMatt> its the actual library
282 2014-10-14 02:01:13 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: exposing the whole of bitcoind's internals to things outside of the project is a pretty dirty hack, come on. :)
283 2014-10-14 02:01:28 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, so then it is rather like SQL DB drivers, which present a useful interface, but under the hood, speak internal protocols and APIs...
284 2014-10-14 02:01:39 <gmaxwell> If instead it was some SWIG binding script or whatever that was submitted it would get an even more negative response.
285 2014-10-14 02:01:53 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes, exactly, but in those cases those things are built by the same project
286 2014-10-14 02:01:59 <BlueMatt> if bitcoind.js were a part of bitcoin core, ok, fine
287 2014-10-14 02:02:01 <BlueMatt> but its not, and wont be
288 2014-10-14 02:02:10 <jgarzik> lovely roadblock logic, that
289 2014-10-14 02:02:15 <gmaxwell> SQL databases have on the wire formats that are much more stable than bitcoind's internals right now.
290 2014-10-14 02:02:17 <sipa> or a libbitcoind.so that does exactly what bitcoind.js does now...
291 2014-10-14 02:02:20 <BlueMatt> not at all, there is an alternate way forward
292 2014-10-14 02:02:26 <BlueMatt> that is much cleaner, and is already being worked on
293 2014-10-14 02:02:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: what it does now isn't the concern. Jeff explained above.
294 2014-10-14 02:02:42 <BlueMatt> if bitpay needs something so badly, it should devote some resources to making it happen, not in rewriting it in some hacky way
295 2014-10-14 02:02:51 <moa> very enlightening discussion
296 2014-10-14 02:02:56 <gmaxwell> Users who are JS shops filled with JS coders will want to extend bitcoind.js.
297 2014-10-14 02:03:07 <jgarzik> We devoted resources to making a solution and we made a solution.
298 2014-10-14 02:03:22 <jgarzik> Not some blue sky maybe-need for a guessed-for future.
299 2014-10-14 02:03:30 <BlueMatt> no, you made a hack in bitcoin core
300 2014-10-14 02:03:51 <kanzure> oh, you want node bindings?
301 2014-10-14 02:03:53 <BlueMatt> and a solution in some private thing
302 2014-10-14 02:03:57 <gmaxwell> "commercial time puressure" is the polite presentation. :)
303 2014-10-14 02:03:59 sipa has left ()
304 2014-10-14 02:04:02 <kanzure> i mean nodejs bindings
305 2014-10-14 02:04:11 * BlueMatt -> out
306 2014-10-14 02:04:41 <crescendo> Bitcoind.js is not private; it is public: https://github.com/bitpay/bitcoind.js
307 2014-10-14 02:06:07 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Slightly disagree -- it's relative. No expected guarantee of any PR getting in in any sort of deadline. But waiting for stable C++ API (a) doesn't really address the solution sought, and (b) seems a common Wait For The Imaginary Monkey Coming In Version 2.0 pattern often found in open source projects.
308 2014-10-14 02:06:34 <jgarzik> so there's no deadline, but they are separate efforts I think
309 2014-10-14 02:06:44 <jgarzik> and move at separate pace
310 2014-10-14 02:07:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: not sure if you've been following the codebase, but there is really significant work on the modulization parts; you've mostly not seemed to comment on any of the design. So (b) is overstated, but a reasonable concern.
311 2014-10-14 02:07:20 <gmaxwell> I agree these are seperate issues.
312 2014-10-14 02:08:06 <crescendo> If the concern is maintainability through future updates, then the feedback should be centered around making the existing body of work more maintainable, imho â the two bodies of work solve distinct problems, and as such I see no clear reason why they shouldn't continue independently.
313 2014-10-14 02:08:54 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, Indeed this is a not a "private thing", everything is open source, proposed in parallel
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315 2014-10-14 02:10:20 <jgarzik> Why upstream this, versus maintain a patch?
316 2014-10-14 02:10:30 <kanzure> i wonder how much worse hammering v8's event loop into boost::thread_group would be
317 2014-10-14 02:10:37 * kanzure ducks
318 2014-10-14 02:10:37 <gmaxwell> crescendo: The approach in this pull is completely unmaintainable (though we won't accept it unless it's clear that bitcoin core will make no effort to maintain it). There is already large amounts of work underway to offer stable library interfaces with probably hundreds of commits by coryfields, BlueMatt, jtimon, and others in the last couple months. Part of the negative reaction, I think, is people who are concerned that exposing the ...
319 2014-10-14 02:10:38 <lechuga_> bitcoindjs.cc is pretty cool effort tho
320 2014-10-14 02:10:43 <gmaxwell> ... existing interfaces will create pressure against the much needed work underway.
321 2014-10-14 02:13:02 <jgarzik> (1) Direct bitcoind bindings like this will always need a set of features like this, no matter the "stable C++ API" This is an API to a running daemon, not abstract execution functions. (2) Ideally the binding will not be short lived, so a long lived patch in a popular open source project (Insight, other JS users) should just upstream the patch.
322 2014-10-14 02:13:59 sinetek has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
323 2014-10-14 02:14:12 <jgarzik> Embedding-bitcoind is the feature, and that's not a closed source or BitPay-only thing.
324 2014-10-14 02:15:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think the comment on the closed thing, is that it's embedding bitcoin in order to make closed extensions to it. That might not actually be the goal there, but its easy to see why someone might assume it that way.
325 2014-10-14 02:16:09 <jgarzik> Yes, making the internals available is ugly, but that's not expected to be a stable or supported API for external consumption. --enable-daemonlib can print out a configure warning or somesuch, about non-stable API, if people think warranted.
326 2014-10-14 02:16:26 Tiraspol has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
327 2014-10-14 02:17:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: they can already make closed extensions, it's MIT license..
328 2014-10-14 02:17:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, Never thought about it that way, honestly, since we open source all that stuff
329 2014-10-14 02:17:47 <jgarzik> our backend payment engine is the only closed source component afaik
330 2014-10-14 02:18:40 <jgarzik> This, bitcore, insight, copay, all OSS.
331 2014-10-14 02:18:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: arguably, mainlining the lib hack makes it more accessible for open extensions on it
332 2014-10-14 02:18:53 <gmaxwell> Yea, I was presenting the potential concern there as I saw it... not trying to argue it myself. For better or worse bitcoind is mit licensed anyways.
333 2014-10-14 02:19:51 <crescendo> gmaxwell: understandable on the maintenance point. perhaps we can come with a far better way of exposing these calls, in a low or even zero-maintenance method?
334 2014-10-14 02:19:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Kinda prefer they not be open. lol... really do not want to deal with anyone opposing a really useful internal interface change simply because it breaks some popular app which is used by people who haven't made the required maintance commitments. :)
335 2014-10-14 02:20:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sure, just pointing out the proprietary argument doesn't make sense :p
336 2014-10-14 02:20:53 <gmaxwell> crescendo: There is an ongoing project to break the software into a set of libraries which will eventually offer a stable interface to the functionality.
337 2014-10-14 02:21:19 jps has quit (Quit: jps)
338 2014-10-14 02:21:52 <jgarzik> OK, I really need to be doing Real Work instead of getting myself distracted ;p
339 2014-10-14 02:22:06 <jgarzik> In general, I did not think any of the early respondents even understood what the PR did
340 2014-10-14 02:22:16 <jgarzik> that seems to be corrected
341 2014-10-14 02:22:41 <jgarzik> I think fair points that remain are: maintenance trickle down, and why not distribute a patch
342 2014-10-14 02:22:42 <gmaxwell> Ultimately I hope that covers it. But absent a customer the priority order has been around the other way... mostly starting at script and growing out. E.g. libscript -> libbitcoinconsensus -> ... which means that it will be some time (and probably a complete wallet rewrite) before it would likely be a replacement for this.
343 2014-10-14 02:22:59 protocrypt has joined
344 2014-10-14 02:23:03 <jgarzik> *poof*
345 2014-10-14 02:23:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thanks for hanging around and clarifying some things.
346 2014-10-14 02:24:02 <Luke-Jr> looking at the PR, I would expect much smaller diff for simply libifying bitcoind
347 2014-10-14 02:24:43 <gmaxwell> I think it's larger than it needs to be, seems to have a bunch of surprising build system interaction.
348 2014-10-14 02:25:05 <cfields> Luke-Jr: looks like someone just got lost in the autotools maze. it simplifies down to very little.
349 2014-10-14 02:25:21 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
350 2014-10-14 02:25:56 <gmaxwell> cfields: that was my read on it too.
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356 2014-10-14 02:30:18 <crescendo> gmaxwell: I'm aware; what would an alternative be to having one of our engineers dedicated to adding the functionality we needed? Trying to understand how we can better make shared improvements available for comment.
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358 2014-10-14 02:32:10 <sipa> crescendo: would a .cpp file that does pretty much what bitcoind.js does at the C++ level be possible?
359 2014-10-14 02:32:37 <sipa> what can be maintained in-repository, wouldn't break compatibility when things are refactored, and would be more generally useful
360 2014-10-14 02:32:57 <cfields> er, can't linux progs be tricked into acting as shared libs with -rdynamic
361 2014-10-14 02:32:58 <cfields> ?
362 2014-10-14 02:33:24 <sipa> ha!
363 2014-10-14 02:33:25 <cfields> if so, i'd just do that and call it a day
364 2014-10-14 02:33:30 <sipa> never knew about that
365 2014-10-14 02:33:35 <cfields> (not joking, btw)
366 2014-10-14 02:33:41 <sipa> yes, i just looked it up
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368 2014-10-14 02:34:37 <Luke-Jr> cfields: -rdynamic to the linker? O.o
369 2014-10-14 02:35:02 <Luke-Jr> oh, cute
370 2014-10-14 02:35:12 <Luke-Jr> ./configure LDFLAGS='-rdynamic'
371 2014-10-14 02:35:14 <Luke-Jr> problem solved :P
372 2014-10-14 02:35:31 <cfields> it used to work, then there was some debate, then drepper got involved iirc. Not sure what the result was.
373 2014-10-14 02:35:46 <cfields> memory is very hazy though. that could've been wrt dlopen().
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375 2014-10-14 02:36:01 <crescendo> yes, dynamic would be appropriate in this context and likely would reduce the maintenance overhead â maybe we can move towards that if we can determine how to make it work (again)
376 2014-10-14 02:36:27 <cfields> there would be no overhead (on our side). and Luke-Jr just told you how to make it work :)
377 2014-10-14 02:36:28 <Luke-Jr> ./configure LDFLAGS='-rdynamic' && make BITCOIND_BIN=$PWD/libbitcoind.so
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379 2014-10-14 02:36:31 <cfields> or try it, anyway
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382 2014-10-14 02:36:56 <Luke-Jr> maybe even
383 2014-10-14 02:36:59 <Luke-Jr> ./configure LDFLAGS='-shared -rdynamic' && make BITCOIND_BIN=$PWD/libbitcoind.so
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385 2014-10-14 02:37:43 <cfields> mm, libtool will eat those. it'd probably take a bit of hackery
386 2014-10-14 02:37:52 <moa> might need LT_INIT([dlopen]) instead of LT_INIT([disable-shared]) in configure.ac?
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388 2014-10-14 02:38:27 <cfields> heh, need to see if it actually works before making any changes
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392 2014-10-14 02:40:47 <cfields> heh, works :)
393 2014-10-14 02:41:17 <crescendo> alright; @Luke-Jr â can you add that to the PR, and link to any relevant (potentially old) code that would be helpful to our dev?
394 2014-10-14 02:41:38 <Luke-Jr> crescendo: I didn't actually test it..
395 2014-10-14 02:41:43 <Luke-Jr> I guess I can easily enough
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397 2014-10-14 02:42:23 <crescendo> we can do the testing, if you just help guide us in the right direction :)
398 2014-10-14 02:43:23 <cfields> crescendo: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zya3hdyh
399 2014-10-14 02:43:32 <cfields> that's the whole shebang
400 2014-10-14 02:44:04 <cfields> er.. reverse those build commands. stupid c/p.
401 2014-10-14 02:45:12 <cfields> and ignore the contents of main() in the first file, that's part of whatever crud i had around in test.c at the moment
402 2014-10-14 02:46:23 <cfields> there: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=g5TmTCps
403 2014-10-14 02:47:27 <crescendo> great, thanks â we'll take a look at this and test with bitcoind.js
404 2014-10-14 02:48:46 <cfields> rdynamic doesn't seem to be needed if symbols are exported properly. And you'll need to watch out for certain build options, some of hardening for example you might want disabled
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439 2014-10-14 02:58:13 <luke-jr_> dyn.cppâ¹.text+0x35): undefined reference to `AppInit(int, charâ)'
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441 2014-10-14 02:58:15 <luke-jr_> not sure why
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458 2014-10-14 03:00:56 <coryfields_> er, did freenode just have a stroke? or was that me?
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466 2014-10-14 03:01:42 <moa> freenode
467 2014-10-14 03:01:46 <crescendo> freenode netsplit.
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473 2014-10-14 03:04:25 <luke-jr_> dyn.cpp:(.text+0x35): undefined reference to `AppInit(int, char**)'
474 2014-10-14 03:04:28 <luke-jr_> not sure why
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482 2014-10-14 03:05:39 <coryfields_> luke-jr_: c++ linkage
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484 2014-10-14 03:06:25 <coryfields_> (assuming you used --enable-reduce-exports as well)
485 2014-10-14 03:06:31 <coryfields_> er, disable
486 2014-10-14 03:06:42 <luke-jr_> coryfields_: nope, but I saw it in nm
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489 2014-10-14 03:07:11 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: nm -CD ?
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491 2014-10-14 03:08:04 <coryfields_> doesn't help to list all globals, that'll show hidden stuff as well until they're stripped
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494 2014-10-14 03:09:16 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: also, you'll need to mind whether you link with gcc or g++, as they imply different external linkages
495 2014-10-14 03:09:24 <Luke-Jr> I was using g++
496 2014-10-14 03:09:35 <coryfields_> for both?
497 2014-10-14 03:09:56 <Luke-Jr> both what?
498 2014-10-14 03:10:08 <coryfields_> er.. are those your ski's? both of em?
499 2014-10-14 03:10:20 <Luke-Jr> O.o?
500 2014-10-14 03:10:22 <coryfields_> i realize that was a dumb question now, you couldn't have built bitcoind with gcc :)
501 2014-10-14 03:10:30 <Luke-Jr> :p
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509 2014-10-14 03:11:54 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: there's no way it will link if you didn't build with --disable-reduce-exports, though
510 2014-10-14 03:12:23 <Luke-Jr> trying that now
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512 2014-10-14 03:13:05 <coryfields_> see the note about hardening as well. I'm not sure what effect building a PIE binary has when trying to use it as a shared lib
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514 2014-10-14 03:13:34 <Luke-Jr> PIE = PIC
515 2014-10-14 03:13:48 <Luke-Jr> just PIE isn't usually a lib
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517 2014-10-14 03:14:04 <coryfields_> no, PIE is always an executable :)
518 2014-10-14 03:14:51 <moa> might not work unless the linked deps are built with the same PIC flag
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521 2014-10-14 03:15:42 <coryfields_> has no effect on my test lib though, so maybe not a problem
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523 2014-10-14 03:18:24 <Luke-Jr> ./configure LDFLAGS='-rdynamic' --disable-reduce-exports --without-utils --without-gui --disable-tests
524 2014-10-14 03:18:27 <Luke-Jr> seems to mostly work
525 2014-10-14 03:18:34 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/VIurrwBe
526 2014-10-14 03:19:01 <Luke-Jr> crash at exit though (double free)
527 2014-10-14 03:22:34 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: that'll likely be the atexit() (and boost's versions of those) not working correctly
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529 2014-10-14 03:22:55 <coryfields_> another reason against the shared lib approach, btw
530 2014-10-14 03:23:05 <coryfields_> those will probably need to be manually called
531 2014-10-14 03:23:13 <Luke-Jr> why?
532 2014-10-14 03:23:38 <Luke-Jr> I mean, why are we using atexit instead of a destructor?
533 2014-10-14 03:23:58 <Luke-Jr> also, the manpage says atexit is fine in libs
534 2014-10-14 03:24:11 <coryfields_> static destruct order. gcc has hooks into its teardown, presumably boost uses em
535 2014-10-14 03:25:35 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: sorry, i didn't mean atexit() in particular (though it may be a problem as well). I meant the internal teardown hooks.
536 2014-10-14 03:25:49 <Luke-Jr> i c
537 2014-10-14 03:25:59 <Luke-Jr> dunno why the order would change from being a lib *shrug*
538 2014-10-14 03:26:00 <coryfields_> sec, i'll find gcc's
539 2014-10-14 03:27:05 <Luke-Jr> we're probably spending more time than it's worth at this point, especially since crescendo inferred they have paid staff to work on it in BitPay (and AFAIK nobody else plans to use it)
540 2014-10-14 03:29:17 <coryfields_> indeed
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546 2014-10-14 03:32:18 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: iirc you can essentially re-implement __cxa_atexit or so, but i'm not remembering where i've done that before
547 2014-10-14 03:32:28 <coryfields_> maybe an android dyloader, or a jni trick
548 2014-10-14 03:32:29 <Luke-Jr> that sounds awful
549 2014-10-14 03:32:54 <coryfields_> well, boost does something similar i believe
550 2014-10-14 03:33:21 <coryfields_> anyway, my point was that if tricks like that are being used, they're likely not playing nice with running from a shared lib
551 2014-10-14 03:33:40 <coryfields_> so, i'd suspect that bitpay was probably seeing that anyway
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568 2014-10-14 03:52:33 <crescendo> in theory, we'll see competing open source node.js libraries competing with ours... or perhaps other bindings for other toolchains. the point is to make sure we open source such changes, and work to make them useful for everyone.
569 2014-10-14 03:56:18 <coryfields_> crescendo: so why not work to create a set of bindings in core, with a real api?
570 2014-10-14 03:56:50 <kanzure_> doesn't boost do bindings somewhere?
571 2014-10-14 03:57:50 <coryfields_> i'd go on a rampage if we pulled in _more_ boost :)
572 2014-10-14 03:58:01 <kanzure_> fair enough
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583 2014-10-14 04:22:16 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: meh, it'd be fine if it's an optional requirement for bindings (assuming it doesn't require designing symbols specifically for it)
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585 2014-10-14 04:26:20 <coryfields_> optional requirement?
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587 2014-10-14 04:29:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa_: btw, that stackexchange you linked me like a week ago - is 9 months old (3.8 when current is 4.9)
588 2014-10-14 04:29:20 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: well, obviously we need boost anyway, but it's not like using it for bindings makes it worse
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590 2014-10-14 04:30:54 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: boost is removed from libbitcoinconsensus, and i'd hope to do the same for anything else we expose
591 2014-10-14 04:31:11 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: does boost require changing libbitcoinconsensus to get bindings?
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594 2014-10-14 04:32:11 <coryfields_> well i assume it'd have to be used on both sides...
595 2014-10-14 04:32:41 <coryfields_> i dunno why i'm arguing such an abstract topic though, it was just an offhand comment :)
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603 2014-10-14 04:42:56 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: a sane binding-generator wouldn't require changing the source code :p
604 2014-10-14 04:43:33 <Luke-Jr> err, origin code? "source code" was two separate words there
605 2014-10-14 04:44:30 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: sure, but it may be necessary at client runtime
606 2014-10-14 04:44:41 <coryfields_> see genproto + libprotobuf
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698 2014-10-14 06:46:29 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: ping. i ended up digging into some stupid libtool stuff today and burning some time. dll's and so's build now and pass all tests. should have it all pushed up tomorrow no problem.
699 2014-10-14 06:46:43 <BlueMatt> nice!
700 2014-10-14 06:46:53 <BlueMatt> no rush...you saw sipa's ml post on bip62?
701 2014-10-14 06:46:56 <coryfields_> sorry it's not up today as i intended
702 2014-10-14 06:47:01 <BlueMatt> (ie it needs extended...again...)
703 2014-10-14 06:47:15 <coryfields_> yea. i responded here, not sure if it was dropped in the freenode split or not
704 2014-10-14 06:47:38 <BlueMatt> I stopped reading everything between the bitpay stuff blowing up, me leaving and the splits
705 2014-10-14 06:47:55 <BlueMatt> I think everyone should go home and read script.cpp and try to find more malleability outside of bip62 this week
706 2014-10-14 06:48:04 wfbarks has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
707 2014-10-14 06:48:13 <coryfields_> i noticed the bool malleability when reviewing yesterday as well, and iirc there were a few others
708 2014-10-14 06:48:22 <coryfields_> but i wanted to test before bringing it up
709 2014-10-14 06:48:33 davout_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
710 2014-10-14 06:48:40 <coryfields_> so i'd like to spend some time going through it again
711 2014-10-14 06:48:49 <BlueMatt> better to bring them up and make everyone think about them vs ignoring them...that kind of thinking often leads to other related issues :)
712 2014-10-14 06:49:00 wfbarks has joined
713 2014-10-14 06:49:01 <BlueMatt> or going off and thinking alone
714 2014-10-14 06:49:28 davout has joined
715 2014-10-14 06:49:43 <gmaxwell> The bool thing isn't something that hits standard transactions.. (though more reason to do checklocktimeverify...)
716 2014-10-14 06:51:11 <BlueMatt> indeed its not a huge deal
717 2014-10-14 06:51:21 <BlueMatt> its more of a well, while we're at it with bip62.....
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729 2014-10-14 07:04:43 <wumpus> <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: a sane binding-generator wouldn't require changing the source code :p <- agreed; if you make bindings that are accessible from C, making specific language bindings is a piece of cake anyway
730 2014-10-14 07:05:17 <wumpus> but the specific bindings are out of scope for bitcoin core, and belong in the appropriate language repositories
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732 2014-10-14 07:05:43 <coryfields_> wumpus: tbh i have no clue what that discussion was about. I think my kneejerk is to argue with Luke-Jr and see where it leads :)
733 2014-10-14 07:05:56 <Luke-Jr> lol
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735 2014-10-14 07:07:46 <wumpus> sometimes even differents kinds of bindings are possible per language; for example in Python it is currently preferred to make bindings in python w/ ctypes instead of boost::python, because that works with pypy as well
736 2014-10-14 07:07:55 <wumpus> so we shouldn't concern ourselves there
737 2014-10-14 07:07:57 <coryfields_> wumpus: i do agree with you though. C bindings are a good and realistic goal for anything we expose. client libs can wrap them however they like
738 2014-10-14 07:08:07 damethos has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
739 2014-10-14 07:08:27 <wumpus> coryfields_: +1
740 2014-10-14 07:08:29 <Luke-Jr> +2 for C bindings
741 2014-10-14 07:08:47 <BlueMatt> +9k for C bindings
742 2014-10-14 07:08:54 <BlueMatt> ITS NOW OVER 9000!!!
743 2014-10-14 07:09:11 <Luke-Jr> k, BlueMatt gets to implement
744 2014-10-14 07:09:13 <Luke-Jr> :P
745 2014-10-14 07:09:17 <BlueMatt> shit
746 2014-10-14 07:09:50 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: btw, you don't have your libconsensus stuff deployed anywhere, do you?
747 2014-10-14 07:09:55 <BlueMatt> no
748 2014-10-14 07:10:07 <BlueMatt> I wrote a patch to make bitcoinj use it, but it was like 20 minutes of work
749 2014-10-14 07:10:09 <BlueMatt> why?
750 2014-10-14 07:10:15 <coryfields_> ok
751 2014-10-14 07:10:26 <BlueMatt> I was gonna wait till you pushed something and then write a quick commit to tweak the api a tiny bit
752 2014-10-14 07:10:30 <BlueMatt> unless you want me to do that first
753 2014-10-14 07:10:34 <coryfields_> there's a tiny bug that caused a few failed tests, but nothing significant
754 2014-10-14 07:10:40 <BlueMatt> oh, psh
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756 2014-10-14 07:10:47 <coryfields_> yep
757 2014-10-14 07:10:58 <BlueMatt> tests are boring
758 2014-10-14 07:11:09 * Luke-Jr hopes it's at least libbcconsensus. libconsensus is too vague/ambiguous.
759 2014-10-14 07:11:19 <BlueMatt> its libbitcoinconsensus
760 2014-10-14 07:11:33 <Luke-Jr> lbc
761 2014-10-14 07:11:34 <wumpus> libconsensusexceptforlukejr :)
762 2014-10-14 07:11:36 <Luke-Jr> almost looks like lhc
763 2014-10-14 07:11:43 <BlueMatt> YES
764 2014-10-14 07:11:53 <BlueMatt> 0.10 must release with LHC mode, just so that sipa is happy
765 2014-10-14 07:12:07 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: disagreeing on libconsensus is either brilliant irony, or the ultimate troll.
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767 2014-10-14 07:12:14 <wumpus> LHC mode does sound bad-ass
768 2014-10-14 07:12:20 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: who's disagreeing?
769 2014-10-14 07:12:37 <coryfields_> heh, nm
770 2014-10-14 07:12:43 <BlueMatt> should we rename headers-first something as buzzword-compatible as HD wallets, before its too late?
771 2014-10-14 07:12:44 <Luke-Jr> (yes, I got it)
772 2014-10-14 07:12:47 <wumpus> coryfields_: hehe
773 2014-10-14 07:12:51 <gmaxwell> libcoinsync
774 2014-10-14 07:13:06 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: yes, actually
775 2014-10-14 07:13:16 <wumpus> BlueMatt: it's too late for that already I think
776 2014-10-14 07:13:23 <wumpus> but for the next thing...
777 2014-10-14 07:13:36 <coryfields_> quicksync is too obvious?
778 2014-10-14 07:13:37 <Luke-Jr> something to imply we peek into the future to see the outcome, before we get there?
779 2014-10-14 07:13:45 <BlueMatt> votes on int bitcoinconsensus_version_check(int script_flags_I_know_how_to_use) -> -1 (you are missing something), 0 (all good in the 'hood), 1 (FLYING DELORIAN ALERT)
780 2014-10-14 07:13:47 <BlueMatt> ?
781 2014-10-14 07:14:13 <wumpus> satoshi's flying delorean is back?
782 2014-10-14 07:14:14 <coryfields_> s/DELORIAN/DORIAN/
783 2014-10-14 07:14:28 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: can we abbreviate the functions bcagree_*?
784 2014-10-14 07:14:35 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ehhhh
785 2014-10-14 07:14:41 <BlueMatt> I would like them abbreviated, but bcagree???
786 2014-10-14 07:14:42 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: careful, he might sue you <.<
787 2014-10-14 07:14:49 YoY has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
788 2014-10-14 07:14:59 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: what else is consensus but agreement? :P
789 2014-10-14 07:15:11 <BlueMatt> true, but I'm not sure it sends the right message?
790 2014-10-14 07:15:22 <gmaxwell> libbitcoinconform
791 2014-10-14 07:15:32 <BlueMatt> how is that much shorter/
792 2014-10-14 07:15:32 <BlueMatt> ?
793 2014-10-14 07:15:34 <Luke-Jr> bccnsnss
794 2014-10-14 07:15:45 <Luke-Jr> please not that
795 2014-10-14 07:15:51 <BlueMatt> yay, startup letter play!
796 2014-10-14 07:15:56 <BlueMatt> I vote werahgjksethrkljgar
797 2014-10-14 07:16:34 <Luke-Jr> bcunity
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799 2014-10-14 07:17:01 <BlueMatt> heh, I kinda like that
800 2014-10-14 07:17:09 <coryfields_> wumpus: i have a few more things in mind for .10, am i in danger if i don't have 'em PR'd asap?
801 2014-10-14 07:17:12 <BlueMatt> btcconsensus is always an option
802 2014-10-14 07:17:16 <gmaxwell> just name it the sha256 sum of the code.
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804 2014-10-14 07:17:27 <coryfields_> wumpus: namely the gitian descriptors and gitian osx signing
805 2014-10-14 07:17:27 <Luke-Jr> bcamity
806 2014-10-14 07:17:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we're past names, just doing func prefix now
807 2014-10-14 07:17:45 <gmaxwell> bcc_
808 2014-10-14 07:17:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I like it, though I hope it doesn't get confused with ubuntu's unity
809 2014-10-14 07:17:53 <sipa_> coryfields_: i have a shell script i used for the HF builds
810 2014-10-14 07:17:56 <wumpus> or the unity 3d engine
811 2014-10-14 07:17:57 <Luke-Jr> bcgoodvibes_*
812 2014-10-14 07:18:00 <wumpus> naah too overused already
813 2014-10-14 07:18:18 <sipa_> coryfields_: it could pretty much directly become gitian
814 2014-10-14 07:18:19 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: you know thats a sex shop?
815 2014-10-14 07:18:21 <coryfields_> HF builds?
816 2014-10-14 07:18:28 <sipa_> headersfirst
817 2014-10-14 07:18:32 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: no, I was just going through a thesaurus
818 2014-10-14 07:18:48 <BlueMatt> we should name it after famous sex stores!
819 2014-10-14 07:18:51 <Luke-Jr> â¦â¦â¦..
820 2014-10-14 07:19:01 <BlueMatt> I thought Luke-Jr might like that
821 2014-10-14 07:19:01 <wumpus> coryfields_: that depends; if it's in line with what we already agreed on needs to be in 0.10, there is no special hurry
822 2014-10-14 07:19:05 <coryfields_> sipa_: it's all done and PR'd, just needs to be revisited and get some ACKs
823 2014-10-14 07:19:05 <Luke-Jr> more seriously, bcc_ was ok
824 2014-10-14 07:19:12 <sipa_> oh ok!
825 2014-10-14 07:19:17 <BlueMatt> bcc seems too short?
826 2014-10-14 07:19:23 <BlueMatt> naming collisions very possible?
827 2014-10-14 07:19:27 <coryfields_> sipa_: mind having a look and seeing if your stuff would be any better though?
828 2014-10-14 07:19:31 <BlueMatt> btcc_ at least?
829 2014-10-14 07:19:35 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: how many other bcc_* are going to have the same functions?
830 2014-10-14 07:19:40 <Luke-Jr> no way, btc is the unit
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832 2014-10-14 07:19:51 <BlueMatt> it is?
833 2014-10-14 07:19:54 <coryfields_> wumpus: i think it's all agreed upon, i just haven't pushed anybody to test/verify yet
834 2014-10-14 07:19:55 <Luke-Jr> ⦠yes?
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836 2014-10-14 07:20:01 <wumpus> wasn't it xtc? I mean xbt
837 2014-10-14 07:20:12 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that's another unit, one that was left undefined XD
838 2014-10-14 07:20:19 <coryfields_> for the gitian descriptors, it basically shoves the travis builds into gitian, so those have some miles on em now
839 2014-10-14 07:20:27 <Luke-Jr> XBT could be the same as either BTC or mBTC by popular opinion <.<
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841 2014-10-14 07:20:56 <coryfields_> sipa_: #4727 is what i'm referencing
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846 2014-10-14 07:21:39 <wumpus> coryfields_: yes, the gitian overhaul
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848 2014-10-14 07:23:03 <wumpus> coryfields_: I don't remember why it was closed unmerged last time
849 2014-10-14 07:23:33 <wumpus> but in principle it is the way forward
850 2014-10-14 07:23:44 <coryfields_> wumpus: the qt4/qt5 debate
851 2014-10-14 07:24:00 <wumpus> wasn't that resolved?
852 2014-10-14 07:24:37 <wumpus> ie - keep using qt4.old on Linux for now for compatibility
853 2014-10-14 07:24:45 <coryfields_> yea, i just didn't push for merge because travis wasn't up and running at the time, and i wanted that to happen first to knock out the major kinks
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855 2014-10-14 07:25:10 <wumpus> ok, so anyhow if you PR that again I'm sure we can merge it this time
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857 2014-10-14 07:25:26 <coryfields_> i haven't revisted it since travis. just need a day or so to get it up to date and cleaned up
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860 2014-10-14 07:25:46 <coryfields_> ok, great. will do once i can hand off the consensus lib stuff
861 2014-10-14 07:26:04 <wumpus> okay
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864 2014-10-14 07:27:16 <sipa_> coryfields_: http://0bin.net/paste/MzKNWTezq-kytXp0#xcaYbgTi-V45o3bHDXBQlbhYHBA/ZKiWHCb5ade2few
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866 2014-10-14 07:30:24 <BlueMatt> coryfields: it looks like several of these drop boost dep changes are not runtime deps?
867 2014-10-14 07:30:37 <BlueMatt> seems like your attacking both runtime and compile-time deps all at once?
868 2014-10-14 07:30:40 <BlueMatt> coryfields_:
869 2014-10-14 07:31:15 <coryfields_> sipa_: ah, that combines all the builds. for the gitian descriptors, they need to be split up
870 2014-10-14 07:31:21 <wumpus> sipa: to avoid confusion we use `gpg --digest-algo sha256 --clearsign SHA256SUMS` to make the SHA256SUMS.asc
871 2014-10-14 07:31:22 <sipa_> sure sure
872 2014-10-14 07:31:39 <wumpus> otherwise you get a Hash: SHA512 header or such at the top
873 2014-10-14 07:31:52 <sipa_> wumpus: good idea
874 2014-10-14 07:32:09 <sipa_> coryfields_: yeah, just showing what i quickly put together
875 2014-10-14 07:32:20 <sipa_> coryfields_: i was surprised to see that the gitian builds were not using depends yet
876 2014-10-14 07:32:34 <sipa_> (also, not going to check the PR now; too drunk)
877 2014-10-14 07:33:10 <sipa_> it is convenient to just run one script, and end up with one set of releaseable files
878 2014-10-14 07:33:30 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: yes, easiest that way. if you can build it without boost, you can be 100% certain you're free of its quirks
879 2014-10-14 07:33:41 <sipa_> agree
880 2014-10-14 07:33:51 <coryfields_> sipa_: haha, sure you're not at the Ballmer peak?
881 2014-10-14 07:33:58 <coryfields_> that's prime PR reviewing time ;)
882 2014-10-14 07:33:59 <sipa_> coryfields_: how would i test?
883 2014-10-14 07:34:03 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: sure, ok
884 2014-10-14 07:35:01 <coryfields_> sipa_: if you can get deep into templated templates, you've reached the peak.
885 2014-10-14 07:35:41 <coryfields_> (not sure if you wanted to test your drunken coding abilities or the PR, but the first was more fun to consider)
886 2014-10-14 07:37:54 <coryfields_> if you meant the PR, don't worry about it yet. It needs a rebase and a few updates.
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888 2014-10-14 07:39:11 <BlueMatt> can I disagree with sipa and suggest that coryfields_ undos the moving of the constant string out of CAccEntryMeta, etc in https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/293dfb8e282071104f7b59e4eba478d60d3b89a9 ?
889 2014-10-14 07:39:25 <BlueMatt> its in the same cpp, and clearly designed for use only in those functions.....
890 2014-10-14 07:39:43 <sipa_> NO YOU CANNOT DISAGREE
891 2014-10-14 07:39:44 <BlueMatt> (maybe actually even define right before WriteAccountingEntry?)
892 2014-10-14 07:39:45 <sipa_> duh
893 2014-10-14 07:39:47 <BlueMatt> ok
894 2014-10-14 07:39:48 <BlueMatt> bye
895 2014-10-14 07:39:52 gdm85 has joined
896 2014-10-14 07:40:00 <sipa_> personal opinion is outlawed here
897 2014-10-14 07:40:03 <BlueMatt> (pronounced byeeeeeee)
898 2014-10-14 07:40:14 <sipa_> it should be "kthxbye"
899 2014-10-14 07:40:23 sipa_ is now known as sipa
900 2014-10-14 07:41:07 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: ehhh to https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/21f37856f40c308dbd5dab8d15556328569d01e0 can we make it more explicit what is going on there?
901 2014-10-14 07:41:20 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: otherwise #5082 lgtm
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903 2014-10-14 07:42:17 <coryfields_> sipa: that script is pretty convenient, btw. especially if you're working on something long-lived like headers-first and don't want to rely on travis
904 2014-10-14 07:42:26 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: sorry, I'll leave comments to github
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907 2014-10-14 07:44:54 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: np. that change is kinda clunky. i was kinda hoping someone better with templates (and not spoiled by c++11) would come up with something cleaner and make me look dumb.
908 2014-10-14 07:45:30 <BlueMatt> well, just some comments to say what it is doing would be nice :)
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910 2014-10-14 07:47:52 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: if it's a vector of classes, each one needs to be serialized individually. in the special case where it's a vector of unsigned char's, it's understood that it's a single serialize operation.
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912 2014-10-14 07:48:07 <coryfields_> i'll something along those lines as a comment
913 2014-10-14 07:48:12 <coryfields_> *i'll add
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971 2014-10-14 09:13:58 <kindoge> kryptokit doesnt support p2sh address? "malformed address"
972 2014-10-14 09:14:00 <kindoge> way to go
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1076 2014-10-14 12:39:42 <Taek> I'm trying to understand the difference between the implementations of p2pkh and p2sh.
1077 2014-10-14 12:40:31 <Taek> In both cases, it looks like you submit some script as the pubkey script and some script as the signature script
1078 2014-10-14 12:41:32 <Taek> and it looks like you wouldn't need a fork of the client to do both, except that now the client recognizes a certain prefix on the hash of a wallet (3) as different instructions on how to build the pubkey hash
1079 2014-10-14 12:42:11 <Taek> meaning that p2sh was always possible, it's just that when making the transaction you also had to tell the sender what the whole pubkey script was
1080 2014-10-14 12:42:15 <Taek> is this correct?
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1110 2014-10-14 13:28:01 <Taek> ;
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1125 2014-10-14 13:49:25 <petertodd> Taek: I'm not quite sure what you're saying there; have you seen the developer docs at https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-documentation?
1126 2014-10-14 13:49:47 <Taek> that's what I'm reading
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1128 2014-10-14 13:50:03 <petertodd> Taek: these low level examples of creating a P2PKH and P2SH signature/transaction may help you too if you follow the logic through closely: https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/blob/master/examples/spend-p2pkh-txout.py https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/blob/master/examples/spend-p2sh-txout.py
1129 2014-10-14 13:50:23 <Taek> Thanks, I will check them out
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1131 2014-10-14 13:52:20 <petertodd> Taek: it's a bit of an investment of time, but I'd *strongly* suggest you read the actual script evaluation code in Bitcoin Core to get a better handle on what's actually going on at the low-level. That or read the script handling code in my python-bitcoinlib, which is basically a 1:1 translation of it to Python.
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1166 2014-10-14 14:37:30 <aschildbach> I wonder if there any effort going on for bitcoin-qt to support cameras? I'm peu a peu removing Bitcoin addresses from Bitcoin Wallet but users complain they can't type the addresses into bitcoin-qt any more.
1167 2014-10-14 14:37:49 <aschildbach> petertodd: I think you have been a proponent of removing addresses, right?
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1169 2014-10-14 14:39:49 <wumpus> I'm not opposed to QR code reading, but it sounds like that would pull in crazy deependencies; I doubt we'll merge something like that as long as the wallet is still in the same repository as the node implementation
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1172 2014-10-14 14:43:17 * wumpus already sees the "bitcoin-qt uses your webcam, big brother is watching you make transactions through bitcoin-qt!" articles on coindesk :p
1173 2014-10-14 14:44:20 * dabura667 runs
1174 2014-10-14 14:44:27 <wumpus> what would already be possible is to use an external QR-code reading program, which dispatches URIs through the system; bitcoin: URIs end up at the right place
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1176 2014-10-14 14:46:53 <wumpus> if there is an open source QR code reader we could even encourage people to use it
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1196 2014-10-14 15:08:41 <aschildbach> wumpus: QtQR is available for Ubuntu, but it doesn't throw any "Intents".
1197 2014-10-14 15:12:57 <wumpus> I suppose that wouldn't be too hard to add, the decoding is the hard part
1198 2014-10-14 15:14:50 <wumpus> removing addresses completely from a Bitcoin Wallet doesn't sound like a good idea to me, if you'd rather not show them by default you could make it an extra 'click' to display them
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1322 2014-10-14 17:24:02 <sipa> Taek: arbitrary redeem scripts were always possible at the protocol level, but before p2sh they had to go in full in the txouts... with p2sh the output can just contain a hash, and the full redeemscript is revealed by the receiver when spending the coins
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1360 2014-10-14 17:54:12 <BlueMatt> are we treating negative S values as a bannable offense???
1361 2014-10-14 17:54:16 Application has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1362 2014-10-14 17:54:17 <BlueMatt> (or have we at some point?)
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1371 2014-10-14 18:02:26 <elichai2> petertodd, here?
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1390 2014-10-14 18:14:10 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: huh? no.
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1393 2014-10-14 18:15:04 <blast_> Who is in administrative charge of the bitcoin.it wiki, it says 'Community' everywhere... Was wondering how accurate that is
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1397 2014-10-14 18:15:58 <justanotheruser> blast_: the maintains it. Ownership is SomeoneWeirds I think
1398 2014-10-14 18:16:09 <justanotheruser> *the community
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1400 2014-10-14 18:17:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: high S values are not even nonstandard
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1428 2014-10-14 18:40:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell, sipa: strange..I was just forwarded a log that seems to indicate that, must be timing coincidence
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1431 2014-10-14 18:44:09 <sipa> BlueMatt: what is LHC mode?
1432 2014-10-14 18:44:41 <sipa> large hadron collider?
1433 2014-10-14 18:46:08 <rfreeman_w> at 900 Mev it is rumored to generate a satoshi from time to time
1434 2014-10-14 18:46:23 <Rozal> Someone please buy my BTC FOR PAYPAL
1435 2014-10-14 18:46:33 <sipa> Rozal: not here
1436 2014-10-14 18:46:36 <sipa> #bitcoin-otc
1437 2014-10-14 18:49:16 <coryfields_> sipa: ah, i see what you meant now
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1439 2014-10-14 18:50:15 <coryfields_> sorry for that, i completely missed "composable" in your request
1440 2014-10-14 18:51:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: LHC mode is libbitcoinconsensus, but there was some variation on the name that looked vaguely like lhc
1441 2014-10-14 18:52:10 <sipa> coryfields_: it's not actually relevant here - and it likely never will be, but i have some philosophical aversion to objects knowing their own name/id/..., since some university project for modelling a filesystem where the names were stored inside the file entries, rather than in the directory indices pointing to them :)
1442 2014-10-14 18:54:06 <coryfields_> heh. I'd say that seems misplaced in this case, since the classes were designed to only serialize that exact name. But i agree that that was a flawed premise to start with.
1443 2014-10-14 18:54:37 <coryfields_> tbh i think i like the pair of pairs best, assuming you meant that as a serious suggestion
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1445 2014-10-14 18:54:45 <sipa> i did
1446 2014-10-14 18:55:41 <coryfields_> great, i'll make that change
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1465 2014-10-14 19:15:40 <spinza> trying headers first, and it seems to be stuck
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1467 2014-10-14 19:17:50 <BlueMatt> spinza: paste a debug.log?
1468 2014-10-14 19:17:54 <BlueMatt> well, pastebin
1469 2014-10-14 19:17:55 <sipa> spinza: how far are you?
1470 2014-10-14 19:18:03 <spinza> 2011 somewhere
1471 2014-10-14 19:18:07 <spinza> after 24h
1472 2014-10-14 19:18:14 <spinza> or mayb 16h
1473 2014-10-14 19:18:29 <sipa> yeah, i'd like to see the log
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1476 2014-10-14 19:19:39 <spinza> how much log do you need?
1477 2014-10-14 19:19:42 <spinza> from the start?
1478 2014-10-14 19:20:03 <sipa> more won't hurt
1479 2014-10-14 19:20:12 <sipa> the end is more important
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1481 2014-10-14 19:21:07 <spinza> anything private in a log?
1482 2014-10-14 19:21:15 <spinza> runnign with disablewallet
1483 2014-10-14 19:21:37 <sipa> in that case, what private information could there be??
1484 2014-10-14 19:21:43 <sipa> sorry, just meant 1 question mark
1485 2014-10-14 19:22:26 <sipa> maybe IP addresses of peers, but i think that's disabled by default
1486 2014-10-14 19:22:45 <spinza> ok uploading now
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1491 2014-10-14 19:26:13 <spinza> bah size limit
1492 2014-10-14 19:26:46 <spinza> ok here is the current log: http://pastebin.com/r4Mxn1pd
1493 2014-10-14 19:26:58 <spinza> will paste the first bit now
1494 2014-10-14 19:27:35 <sipa> spinza: you're not running headersfitst
1495 2014-10-14 19:28:09 <sipa> *headersfirst
1496 2014-10-14 19:28:20 <spinza> doh, I downloaded from your build?
1497 2014-10-14 19:28:30 <sipa> well, you're not running it :)
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1500 2014-10-14 19:29:15 <petertodd> sipa: "In particular, note that zero could be encoded as (01 80) (negative zero) if using the non-shortest form is allowed." <- I think you mean 00 80
1501 2014-10-14 19:29:39 <petertodd> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0062.mediawiki
1502 2014-10-14 19:29:43 <spinza> sipa, is there flag I should set?
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1504 2014-10-14 19:29:46 <sipa> spinza: no
1505 2014-10-14 19:29:53 <sipa> spinza: you're just running the wrong binary
1506 2014-10-14 19:30:28 <sipa> petertodd: no, i meant 01 80 (the 01 is the push-1-byte operator)
1507 2014-10-14 19:30:42 <petertodd> sipa: ah, I see
1508 2014-10-14 19:31:11 <sipa> the rest of the examples in that section also contain the push operators
1509 2014-10-14 19:32:46 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, my brain's a little fried from having reviewed your patch for the past three hours :)
1510 2014-10-14 19:32:54 <sipa> petertodd: thanks for that!
1511 2014-10-14 19:34:32 <spinza> sipa: is this not it? http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/headersfirst/bitcoin-gf38f7af0/bitcoin-gf38f7af0-linux64.tar.gz
1512 2014-10-14 19:34:41 <sipa> yes it is
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1514 2014-10-14 19:35:07 <sipa> spinza: the first line in debug.log when starting up lists the version
1515 2014-10-14 19:35:29 <sipa> it should v0.9.99.0-f38f7af
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1521 2014-10-14 19:39:05 <spinza> i must have done something stupid
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1530 2014-10-14 19:43:04 <spinza> forgot to chmod +x so when I ran it it went back to the other bitcoind on the path
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1542 2014-10-14 19:57:32 <gmaxwell> libhashchain
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1547 2014-10-14 19:58:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, yep
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1556 2014-10-14 20:07:16 <elichai2> the debug.log can't contain anything sensitive, right?
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1566 2014-10-14 20:17:53 <spinza> sipa: well now i *am* running headers first and almost caught up to where i was after 24h on the wrong bitcoind :) great work
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1595 2014-10-14 20:45:19 <earlz> Is there anything out there for encoding arbritrary text in a base58 address? I know some bits aren't controllable like version and checksum
1596 2014-10-14 20:46:03 <earlz> I imagine like 1foobar1234192 or some such where you generate the "address" by base58 encoding data that would be encoded as the text
1597 2014-10-14 20:47:12 <kjj> yup, it's pretty easy to do. harder (or impossible) if you want to have the private key for that address...
1598 2014-10-14 20:47:28 <earlz> I don't want the private key. I want to generate a burn address
1599 2014-10-14 20:47:48 <earlz> (and yes, I know there is the p2sh stuff I could do with provably unspendable opcodes.. but eh)
1600 2014-10-14 20:48:00 <kjj> please don't
1601 2014-10-14 20:48:29 <earlz> the main reason is I need it to be a standard transaction
1602 2014-10-14 20:48:39 <Adlai> use OP_RETURN
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1605 2014-10-14 20:49:54 <earlz> It's a lot more hard to explain to people "send to this magic address, it's provably unspendable" when compared to "send to this address with very exact text"
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1608 2014-10-14 20:53:23 <BlueMatt> earlz: do not do that
1609 2014-10-14 20:53:33 <BlueMatt> earlz: OP_RETURN exists for this purpose
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1611 2014-10-14 20:54:40 <earlz> I assume there's no way to make a P2SH that has vanity text?
1612 2014-10-14 20:54:53 <earlz> also is op_return standard?
1613 2014-10-14 20:55:16 <aburan28> is the p2p message mempool used after the 0.8.6 version?
1614 2014-10-14 20:55:17 <earlz> ugh constructing transactions is hard
1615 2014-10-14 20:55:32 <earlz> sadly not safe to assume :( shitty altcoins
1616 2014-10-14 20:55:55 <BlueMatt> earlz: OP_RETURN is standard throughout most of the network
1617 2014-10-14 20:55:56 <Adlai> yes, op_return is perfectly standard and being used in transactions all the time these days
1618 2014-10-14 20:56:13 <earlz> no way to do vanitygen-ish on p2sh though, right?
1619 2014-10-14 20:57:10 <Adlai> you could do that, but there's still no way to prove that some trivially spendable script doesn't hash to your vanity p2sh "address"
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1621 2014-10-14 20:59:22 <earlz> Well, it'd ideally end in op_return making it unspendable
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1624 2014-10-14 21:07:17 <BlueMatt> earlz: no, p2sh does not solve this problem either
1625 2014-10-14 21:07:19 <BlueMatt> use OP_RETURN
1626 2014-10-14 21:09:07 <earlz> Well, how would you generate a burn "address" with OPT_RETURN
1627 2014-10-14 21:09:48 <earlz> I thought you'd somehow broadcast the burn transaction with op_return, and then use p2sh to add more coins to that transaction... or fuck.. I really need to wrap my head around p2sh
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1629 2014-10-14 21:10:50 <BlueMatt> no, you send to a script starting with OP_RETURN
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1648 2014-10-14 21:32:46 <Adlai> earlz: traditional addresses say, "spendable by anybody who knows the private key whose pubkey hashes to this value". p2sh says, "pay to anybody who can produce a valid script which hashes to this value". op_return says, "don't pay anybody". the third, and only the third, does what you're looking for.
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1650 2014-10-14 21:33:50 <Adlai> er, for p2sh they need to *satisfy* that script, not just produce it. so p2sh with an unsatisfiable script does theoretically work, but op_return makes that explicit and provable.
1651 2014-10-14 21:33:57 <earlz> ugh
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1653 2014-10-14 21:34:17 <Adlai> ugh?
1654 2014-10-14 21:34:18 <Luke-Jr> earlz: you shouldn't do it anyway
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1656 2014-10-14 21:34:26 <earlz> so there is no way to do op_return without raw transactins and such.. which is basically impossible for non-technical people
1657 2014-10-14 21:35:00 <Adlai> regular bitcoin transactions were impossible for non-technical people until technical people came along and built clients for them
1658 2014-10-14 21:35:14 <earlz> it's to burn altcoins... so not your problem at least :) specifically, it's for burning left over ICO coins
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1660 2014-10-14 21:36:17 <Luke-Jr> earlz: then it's off-topic here
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1664 2014-10-14 21:38:43 <earlz> but it's bitcoin relatedish.. really it's probably more just programming.. how can you make arbritrary text in base64 heh
1665 2014-10-14 21:39:36 <Luke-Jr> "bitcoin relatedish" isn't on-topic. Bitcoin development is.
1666 2014-10-14 21:39:42 <Luke-Jr> altcoins are not Bitcoin development, period
1667 2014-10-14 21:39:43 <BlueMatt> earlz: well, your question was answered.....
1668 2014-10-14 21:39:56 <BlueMatt> you cant w/o braking the hash
1669 2014-10-14 21:41:50 <earlz> Well, an "Address" is just some data of a certain format that's base 58 encoded... doesn't have to hash to anything assuming you don't wan tot spend it
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1671 2014-10-14 21:42:03 <earlz> either way, I'll ask elsewhere
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1677 2014-10-14 21:47:35 <manaka> does anyone know why i get this error? Script not of right size, expecting 2 but got 6
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1683 2014-10-14 21:49:59 <Luke-Jr> manaka: what gives that error?
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1685 2014-10-14 21:52:37 <manaka> when i try to build a p2sh script
1686 2014-10-14 21:52:40 <manaka> using bitcoinj
1687 2014-10-14 21:52:50 <manaka> a 2 of 3 account
1688 2014-10-14 21:55:30 <Luke-Jr> manaka: hang out here until hearn shows up (or maybe BlueMatt knows)
1689 2014-10-14 21:55:41 <manaka> thanks Luke
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1691 2014-10-14 21:56:19 <BlueMatt> manaka: #bitcoinj
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1693 2014-10-14 21:57:49 <Luke-Jr> ⦠why is there another chnanel for that? :/
1694 2014-10-14 22:00:37 <spinza> headers first: if you have a really fast peer it tends to disconnect other peers even if they are also fast or even if they are addnode peers from the conf file.
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1697 2014-10-14 22:01:11 <sipa> spinza: hmm, i never considered interaction with addnode
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1700 2014-10-14 22:01:34 <spinza> haven't tried connect
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1702 2014-10-14 22:01:55 <spinza> not sure if it is a big deal or not
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1706 2014-10-14 22:04:07 <spinza> i was testing on a slowish machine and it was downloading from another node on the same machine and another on the same lan. lan node was faster so it ended up disconnecting the node on the same machine :)
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1708 2014-10-14 22:05:31 <spinza> added the node on the same machine via conf and it still disconnects it (but later adds it back i believe)
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1758 2014-10-14 23:13:15 <coryfields_> sipa: regarding #4981, should it just be serialized as a byte-vector, after verifying that it's < 0xff ?
1759 2014-10-14 23:13:22 chaosagent has joined
1760 2014-10-14 23:13:49 <sipa> coryfields_: yup
1761 2014-10-14 23:13:59 <coryfields_> ok, thanks
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1763 2014-10-14 23:14:31 <sipa> it would be nice if the operator<<(CScriptNum&) and operator<<(std::vector<unsigned char>&) one where combined, and used the smallest encoding for either in whatever case
1764 2014-10-14 23:14:34 <sipa> but let's do that later
1765 2014-10-14 23:15:57 <sipa> coryfields_: updated my comment; anything in range 2-75 bytes should be fine (and all use cases should match that)
1766 2014-10-14 23:16:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: hm, I'm trying to follow the new ProcessBlock code, and I'm in ActivateBestChainâ¦
1767 2014-10-14 23:16:23 <Luke-Jr> sipa: this appears like it will just fail to reorg at all if the chain with the most work is invalid?
1768 2014-10-14 23:16:32 <Luke-Jr> ie, it won't follow a shorter valid chain
1769 2014-10-14 23:16:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it will
1770 2014-10-14 23:16:43 <Luke-Jr> where is the logic for that?
1771 2014-10-14 23:16:49 <sipa> the bad chain will be marked invalid and removed from setBlockIndexValid
1772 2014-10-14 23:17:00 <sipa> and in the next attempt, the next-best tip will be tried
1773 2014-10-14 23:17:17 <sipa> coryfields_: if you use CScript::operator<<(std::vector<unsigned char>&), anything 2-520 bytes should be fine
1774 2014-10-14 23:17:34 <Luke-Jr> hm, ok.. *reads more*
1775 2014-10-14 23:18:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: what's the purpose of state = CValidationState(); after we fail to connect an invalid block? :|
1776 2014-10-14 23:18:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: because we'll try connecting other blocks
1777 2014-10-14 23:19:11 <sipa> as in: we've dealt with the problem, and will now continue trying other solutons
1778 2014-10-14 23:19:29 <sipa> FindMostWorkChain returns the most work not-known-to-be-invalid chain
1779 2014-10-14 23:20:01 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
1780 2014-10-14 23:21:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: really, ActivateBestChain etc should not take a CValidationState at al - it's only used for system errors
1781 2014-10-14 23:21:59 <sipa> all other types of errors are dealt with internally
1782 2014-10-14 23:22:29 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1783 2014-10-14 23:23:23 justanotheruser has joined
1784 2014-10-14 23:23:44 <Luke-Jr> oh, I see what's going on here
1785 2014-10-14 23:23:52 <sipa> coryfields_: gah, i tried to enable the large-reorg test on travis, but it fails due to more than 4 MB of log being produced
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1790 2014-10-14 23:25:08 <coryfields_> sipa: not much we can do other than reduce the verbosity, i'm afraid :\
1791 2014-10-14 23:25:21 <sipa> coryfields_: uhu
1792 2014-10-14 23:25:23 <coryfields_> if you redirect output to /dev/null, it'll think it's stalled and bail
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1794 2014-10-14 23:27:04 <coryfields_> sipa: did BlueMatt hack that back into working order?
1795 2014-10-14 23:27:19 <sipa> coryfields_: i can run it locally without problems
1796 2014-10-14 23:27:27 <sipa> by disabling the mempool check
1797 2014-10-14 23:27:37 <coryfields_> ah
1798 2014-10-14 23:27:46 won9 has joined
1799 2014-10-14 23:27:46 <sipa> (which now runs after every block rather than after every reorg)
1800 2014-10-14 23:28:35 poggy_ is now known as poggy
1801 2014-10-14 23:29:53 <BlueMatt> sipa: mempool check runs after every block????
1802 2014-10-14 23:29:54 <BlueMatt> thats not right
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1804 2014-10-14 23:30:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: there is no concept of a reorg anymore
1805 2014-10-14 23:30:33 <sipa> it's just "make progress towards the best solution until you reach a stable point"
1806 2014-10-14 23:30:35 <BlueMatt> oh, bitcoind does that?
1807 2014-10-14 23:30:41 <BlueMatt> sorry, thought you meant the tester
1808 2014-10-14 23:30:53 <sipa> ah, no, i mean -checkmempool
1809 2014-10-14 23:30:57 <sipa> which is on by default in regtest
1810 2014-10-14 23:31:13 <sipa> so if i disable that, headersfirst passes the large reorg test
1811 2014-10-14 23:31:27 <sipa> and i believe it should even do >2000 deep reorgs
1812 2014-10-14 23:31:32 <sipa> but have no test for that
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1816 2014-10-14 23:32:45 <coryfields_> sipa: ok to assert those size constraints still? or is failure acceptable there?
1817 2014-10-14 23:33:08 <sipa> coryfields_: assert is acceptable; i'll refactor things into something more flexible later
1818 2014-10-14 23:33:12 trixisowned is now known as trixiswat
1819 2014-10-14 23:33:16 <lechuga_> mempool::check fails for missing inputs?
1820 2014-10-14 23:33:39 <sipa> lechuga_: what is mempool::check?
1821 2014-10-14 23:33:53 <lechuga_> CTxMemPool::check
1822 2014-10-14 23:35:15 <sipa> you mean AcceptToMemoryPool? (in current master)
1823 2014-10-14 23:35:32 <sipa> if so, yes
1824 2014-10-14 23:36:10 <lechuga_> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/txmempool.cpp#L495-L538
1825 2014-10-14 23:36:20 <sipa> ah
1826 2014-10-14 23:36:34 <sipa> CTxMemPool::check does an internal consistency check of the mempool
1827 2014-10-14 23:36:44 <sipa> which does not allow missing inputs indeed
1828 2014-10-14 23:38:38 <lechuga_> thats not what's failing in your test run?
1829 2014-10-14 23:39:13 <coryfields_> sipa: just making sure we're on the same page before i push: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zPaihs0i
1830 2014-10-14 23:39:29 <coryfields_> (m_vch -> vch too)
1831 2014-10-14 23:39:39 <sipa> lechuga_: nothing is failing; the mempool check is just to slow in the large reorg test, and causes the test to timeout :)
1832 2014-10-14 23:39:46 <lechuga_> ah ic
1833 2014-10-14 23:40:19 <sipa> coryfields_: ack
1834 2014-10-14 23:40:22 syst3mw0rm has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1835 2014-10-14 23:40:31 <coryfields_> sipa: roger, thanks for the hand-holding on this one :)
1836 2014-10-14 23:40:59 <sipa> i'm ashamed to only have noticed this so late, especially after spending a ton of time on all things script encoding :)
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1839 2014-10-14 23:43:16 <gmaxwell> big reorg test would work better if we had some mempool limiting process. :)
1840 2014-10-14 23:43:20 <coryfields_> i'll let it slide this time :)
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1845 2014-10-14 23:49:15 <coryfields_> BlueMatt / sipa: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/tree/libbitcoinconsensus
1846 2014-10-14 23:49:15 nxn-1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1847 2014-10-14 23:49:39 <coryfields_> it's still quite messy, but all the pieces are there
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1851 2014-10-14 23:52:20 <coryfields_> it pulls in the 3 pending PRs, does the shuffle to remove the boost dep, then adds the build-system stuff and new files. I'll keep that branch rebased against master as PR's go in, then pop of another chunk for PR and repeat.
1852 2014-10-14 23:53:37 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: nice! I doubt I'll have time to review in more than chunks, but good to see it
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1854 2014-10-14 23:54:04 * sipa tries to build
1855 2014-10-14 23:54:32 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: if you have time, can you swap out bitcoinconsensus_version() with int bitcoinconsensus_check_version(script_flags_i_support) as discussed yesterday (though lack of anyone else commenting scares me)
1856 2014-10-14 23:54:35 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: np. I just pushed it up so that you can hack on the interface itself and test something that will resemble the end-product. It's a WIP for sure.
1857 2014-10-14 23:54:43 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1858 2014-10-14 23:55:06 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: I'm not sure there is much interface hacking that still needs to happen?
1859 2014-10-14 23:55:13 <sipa> coryfields_: how do i make it spit out a .so file?
1860 2014-10-14 23:55:49 <coryfields_> sipa: it should by default. it'll be in .libs. 'make install' should do the right thing, but admittedly i haven't tried that yet
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1864 2014-10-14 23:56:02 <sipa> i have no .libs
1865 2014-10-14 23:56:07 <sipa> ah
1866 2014-10-14 23:56:08 <BlueMatt> src/.libx
1867 2014-10-14 23:56:08 <sipa> in src
1868 2014-10-14 23:56:09 <BlueMatt> s
1869 2014-10-14 23:56:24 <BlueMatt> make install was working for me, previously, so I assume it should still work
1870 2014-10-14 23:58:23 <sipa> *** Warning: Linking the shared library libbitcoinconsensus.la against the
1871 2014-10-14 23:58:23 <sipa> *** static library crypto/libbitcoin_crypto.a is not portable!
1872 2014-10-14 23:59:06 <coryfields_> sipa: part of the WIP. it wants that to be a libtool convenience lib instead
1873 2014-10-14 23:59:27 <sipa> ok
1874 2014-10-14 23:59:52 <coryfields_> if i can't get around to those changes in time, we'll just build the crypto objects twice. will cost an extra ~3sec