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14 2014-10-16 07:44:02 <wumpus> coryfields: wouldn't that waste a lot of memory?
15 2014-10-16 07:44:23 <sipa> wumpus: what would?
16 2014-10-16 07:44:32 <wumpus> coryfields: <coryfields_> if no, then with posix_memalign aligned to page boundary, we can use our allocator to lock the current structure and know that it won't overlap with the next
17 2014-10-16 07:44:42 <sipa> it won't waste _memory_
18 2014-10-16 07:44:45 <wumpus> locked memory is restricted per process
19 2014-10-16 07:44:50 <sipa> it will waste locked memory
20 2014-10-16 07:44:51 <wumpus> yes
21 2014-10-16 07:45:14 <sipa> which is why i said we should first have an idea of how much locked memory we're actually suing
22 2014-10-16 07:45:17 <coryfields_> wumpus: other things could still be allocated there, but it'd limit the amount of locked resources to 1/page
23 2014-10-16 07:45:27 <coryfields_> *purposeful locked resources
24 2014-10-16 07:45:37 <sipa> as iirc it's just encryption keys and occasionally a private key
25 2014-10-16 07:45:40 <wumpus> do you have any specific reason of going after LockedPageManager though? it's mostly used in wallet code
26 2014-10-16 07:45:58 <phantomcircuit> btw that is almost universally 64kB
27 2014-10-16 07:46:08 <phantomcircuit> (which you will hit if you use a wallet with lots and lots of keys btw)
28 2014-10-16 07:46:20 <wumpus> right
29 2014-10-16 07:46:26 <sipa> oh
30 2014-10-16 07:46:36 <sipa> in an unencrypted wallet, all keys are held in memory
31 2014-10-16 07:46:41 <sipa> i forgot about that
32 2014-10-16 07:46:54 <sipa> sooo... ehm
33 2014-10-16 07:47:00 <sipa> what if we just drop the mlocking?
34 2014-10-16 07:47:02 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: I do think the default amount of locked memory per process is more than 64kB though
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36 2014-10-16 07:47:10 <sipa> wumpus: nope, 64 KiB
37 2014-10-16 07:47:11 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, nope
38 2014-10-16 07:47:14 <wumpus> ok...
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41 2014-10-16 07:47:36 <gmaxwell> pretty sure it's 32kb in fedora... but I'm not on a fedora host right now.
42 2014-10-16 07:47:44 <coryfields_> wumpus: i'm just going after the state and nasty dependencies in the really low-level stuff that we may need as part of a lib
43 2014-10-16 07:47:46 <wumpus> well then it is easy - just mlock 64kB at start and use it as a pool? the difficulty always was that the pool may not fit, but in this case...
44 2014-10-16 07:47:52 <coryfields_> sipa: haha, i was afraid to ask that one :)
45 2014-10-16 07:47:53 <wumpus> it never has to expand
46 2014-10-16 07:48:11 <phantomcircuit> i've actually taken to doing mlockall() and expensing the limit to ~6GB
47 2014-10-16 07:48:13 <sipa> wumpus: you still need an own memory allocator that uses that 64 KiB for backing
48 2014-10-16 07:48:22 <phantomcircuit> but that's on systems with 32+GB of ram
49 2014-10-16 07:48:28 <sipa> gpg uses mlockall, iirc
50 2014-10-16 07:48:43 <phantomcircuit> maybe
51 2014-10-16 07:49:17 <wumpus> sipa: sure
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53 2014-10-16 07:49:21 <gmaxwell> we should probably add a flag to allow people to mlockall... it's really the most safe thing but.. not a good solution in general. Though if the wallet was another process it would be more reasonable!
54 2014-10-16 07:49:30 <gmaxwell> (or even better, key management/signing another process!)
55 2014-10-16 07:49:44 <sipa> coryfields_: well nothing but wallet code should use secure_allocator
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57 2014-10-16 07:49:57 <sipa> coryfields_: so it could be split off easily
58 2014-10-16 07:50:08 <wumpus> sipa: agreed
59 2014-10-16 07:50:21 <sipa> i wouldn't waste too much time on it
60 2014-10-16 07:50:21 <gmaxwell> back to earth, I suggested earlier just make a fixed size satic object to keep data that should be locked. (encryption derrived key, private key currently being used)
61 2014-10-16 07:50:32 <sipa> yeah, wumpus suggested that too just now
62 2014-10-16 07:50:40 <sipa> but i think that is more work than you think it is
63 2014-10-16 07:50:50 <sipa> and it still wouldn't work well...
64 2014-10-16 07:50:52 <gmaxwell> its probably a lot of work.
65 2014-10-16 07:51:04 <wumpus> if it's just for the wallet: don't bother
66 2014-10-16 07:51:20 <gmaxwell> thats the only place we have confidential information.
67 2014-10-16 07:51:37 <sipa> (if you have more than 2048 keys, it can't fit in 64 KiB, even with optimal allocation strategies)
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69 2014-10-16 07:52:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats derpy though. We should decrypt the private key on the fly, if the kdf is already done the AES is fast ... much faster than signing.
70 2014-10-16 07:52:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: we do
71 2014-10-16 07:52:17 <sipa> for encryptred wallets
72 2014-10-16 07:52:31 <sipa> of course, we could just encrypt private keys in memory too... even for unencrypted ones
73 2014-10-16 07:52:38 <gmaxwell> so no need to have more than one key and one kdf master key mlocked.
74 2014-10-16 07:55:17 <wumpus> anyhow I never knew that the limit was only 64kB... in that case we could just as well drop secure_allocator completely as it's already not doing anything useful
75 2014-10-16 07:56:16 <gmaxwell> well it's configuarable and OS specific. We shouldn't do something clearly bad even if it's not fully effective on all systems now.
76 2014-10-16 07:56:27 <wumpus> 64kB is... 16 pages, no need for all that admin overhead
77 2014-10-16 07:57:04 <gmaxwell> e.g. on gentoo it appears the default is unlimited.
78 2014-10-16 07:57:48 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, if you go over the limit bitcoind will crash
79 2014-10-16 07:57:49 <coryfields_> well it's always $allmem/2, right? :p
80 2014-10-16 07:57:50 <phantomcircuit> so
81 2014-10-16 07:57:53 <phantomcircuit> no leave it
82 2014-10-16 07:57:58 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: no, it won't crash
83 2014-10-16 07:57:58 <gmaxwell> oh darn, no 64 there too. well it's easily increased (you often have to for realtime audio apps)
84 2014-10-16 07:58:03 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no it won't.
85 2014-10-16 07:58:06 <gmaxwell> it'll fail silently.
86 2014-10-16 07:58:09 <phantomcircuit> oh it does
87 2014-10-16 07:58:13 <phantomcircuit> i remember this now
88 2014-10-16 07:58:27 <wumpus> no, it does not crash, it ignores errors from mlock
89 2014-10-16 07:58:30 <phantomcircuit> i seem to recall having a "solution" (hint: not useful)
90 2014-10-16 07:58:36 <wumpus> people are using wallets wiht 100000's of keys
91 2014-10-16 07:58:42 <phantomcircuit> lol right
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93 2014-10-16 07:58:47 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it fails silently. I promise.
94 2014-10-16 07:58:52 <phantomcircuit> that's why i patched bitcoind to call mlockall
95 2014-10-16 07:58:56 <phantomcircuit> derp
96 2014-10-16 07:59:11 <gmaxwell> yes, if you are MCL future then sure, you'll crash when you run out.
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98 2014-10-16 08:01:11 <wumpus> some strings are mlocked as well (SecureString) - that's mostly symbolic, as neither the RPC nor the GUI has the whole path mlocked
99 2014-10-16 08:01:59 <gmaxwell> (I'm not sure why it not being very effective is news to people; I know I've pointed it out before. :-/ It's an initial attempt, and in particular if you unlock the wallet right at start I think it still has a good chance of keeping the master key out of swap.
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101 2014-10-16 08:02:27 <gmaxwell> yea, making the full rpc path locked wouldn't be hard with jgarzik's stuff, but would probably require more locked memory.
102 2014-10-16 08:02:33 <wumpus> I just didn't know about the 64kB limit
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104 2014-10-16 08:02:46 <wumpus> so it's *even less effective* then I thought
105 2014-10-16 08:03:10 <wumpus> I assumed it was at least a few MiB
106 2014-10-16 08:03:12 <gmaxwell> "just run bitcoin as root" :P
107 2014-10-16 08:03:54 <gmaxwell> wumpus: no sadly, I think the goal is that a runaway task can't exaust memory so easily; and with any non-trivial limit something that forked a lot could do so easily.
108 2014-10-16 08:04:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, just run bitcoin on gentoo hardened
109 2014-10-16 08:04:04 <wumpus> if I know about the low limit I'd have written LockedPagemanager in a completely different way, ie with a fixed memory size in mind
110 2014-10-16 08:04:14 <phantomcircuit> proceed to cry when you get weird selinux issues though
111 2014-10-16 08:04:27 <phantomcircuit> actually i bet that some of those could fork you
112 2014-10-16 08:04:32 <phantomcircuit> so maybe dont do that
113 2014-10-16 08:05:33 <gmaxwell> wumpus: could detect the failure and log once "you should increase your locked page ulimit"
114 2014-10-16 08:05:34 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but then, why can mlockall lock more?
115 2014-10-16 08:05:50 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, it cant
116 2014-10-16 08:05:55 <phantomcircuit> that will crash
117 2014-10-16 08:06:26 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: I'm not listening to you anymore :)
118 2014-10-16 08:06:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
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120 2014-10-16 08:07:28 <gmaxwell> wumpus: he was saying he replaced it with mlockall(MCL_CURRENT|MCL_FUTURE) and it was crashing until he upped the limit, I think. which is what I'd expect.
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122 2014-10-16 08:07:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that
123 2014-10-16 08:08:12 <phantomcircuit> and actually i just added mlockall(MCL_CURRENT|MCL_FUTURE) to init.cpp somewhere
124 2014-10-16 08:08:12 Centaure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
125 2014-10-16 08:08:19 <gmaxwell> (which might even be a reasonable runtime configuration "lockmemory=1" though obviously that has some pretty big implications given our memory usage (well, our memory usage has gotten a lot better. :) ))
126 2014-10-16 08:08:19 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ohh.. right, I thought he was saying that the current bitcoind crashes when it goes over the limit, just a miscommunication then
127 2014-10-16 08:08:45 <gmaxwell> well he was, but then he rememered he replaced it with mlockall.
128 2014-10-16 08:08:49 <wumpus> locking all the block headers and data to memory just makes no sense
129 2014-10-16 08:09:19 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, it has the distinct advantage of being trivially obviously correct for all the secret stuff though
130 2014-10-16 08:09:28 <phantomcircuit> which is why i did it
131 2014-10-16 08:09:30 <gmaxwell> sure but if you have 16 gbytes of ram its harmless... and it does close all the json paths.
132 2014-10-16 08:10:15 <wumpus> this would be interesting discussion if, at some point, the wallet completely split off... talking about that, I'm fairly sure the other SPV wallets don't do any memory locking at all
133 2014-10-16 08:10:28 <wumpus> so anything would be an improvement :p
134 2014-10-16 08:10:53 <gmaxwell> nothing does, we're AFAIK the only implemention that tries at all. Many implementations are written in languages where its fundimentally hard or impossible.
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137 2014-10-16 08:12:06 <gmaxwell> So I've considered our effort here to be in the right direction if not complete. Fortunately nothing in the software promises the user this works, so it shouldn't be giving anyone false security (well perhaps it was to a small number of fairly technical people if the limit wasn't widely known)
138 2014-10-16 08:14:25 easye has joined
139 2014-10-16 08:14:56 <gmaxwell> wrt splitting off the wallet, actually splitting off private key management and signing is independantly interesting. E.g. you can end up with an interface that talks equally to a hardware signer (like btchip) or a software one that runs in its own little process.
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141 2014-10-16 08:15:26 <coryfields_> wumpus: i was hoping (long-term push, nothing immediate obviously) to move towards signing as part of a lib, so that the wallet functionality could start to split off somewhat
142 2014-10-16 08:15:59 <coryfields_> er, and what gmaxwell said :)
143 2014-10-16 08:16:20 <sinetek> you can use OpenMP primitives
144 2014-10-16 08:16:25 <gmaxwell> ...
145 2014-10-16 08:16:28 <sinetek> hmm
146 2014-10-16 08:16:33 <sinetek> that will get swapped
147 2014-10-16 08:16:34 <sinetek> nvm
148 2014-10-16 08:16:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell: right, and in that case the private key mangement process could mlockall and/or use other OS support for security
149 2014-10-16 08:17:20 <gmaxwell> right, the private key mamangement process could have ptrace denied, no network communiations, very highly sealed.
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151 2014-10-16 08:17:42 <coryfields_> wumpus: that's what started this discussion... i didn't want boost and the singleton involved in the lib that would start to emerge
152 2014-10-16 08:18:06 <gmaxwell> hm. seperately I need that kind of process written for other stuff.
153 2014-10-16 08:18:09 <wumpus> coryfields: but in that case it's up to the caller to keep memory secure, not a responsibility of the lib!
154 2014-10-16 08:18:20 <sinetek> i remember somethign about disk encryption and private keys never going into RAM unencrypted
155 2014-10-16 08:18:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes - that would make sense as a general standard, ie not just for bitcoin core, but at least for other wallets as well
156 2014-10-16 08:18:33 <sinetek> maybe something like this could be used. would need assembly
157 2014-10-16 08:18:40 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, so you need a process that strongly fights being debugged basically?
158 2014-10-16 08:18:42 <sinetek> store the keys in XMM registers.
159 2014-10-16 08:18:52 <phantomcircuit> i can think of a certain community with experience in that
160 2014-10-16 08:18:57 <wumpus> let's not get too obscure here - any step would work
161 2014-10-16 08:19:01 <wumpus> would help*
162 2014-10-16 08:19:23 <coryfields_> wumpus: exactly, it has no business being so low-level. it's an implementation detail.
163 2014-10-16 08:20:00 <wumpus> coryfields: so you can just split it off from the library, instead of reimplementing it
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166 2014-10-16 08:22:23 <wumpus> coryfields: it's like the signature caching in a way, it's just up to the host process to handle it or not
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168 2014-10-16 08:22:31 <coryfields_> wumpus: well atm they're tied. i figured the path of least resistance was a compromise in the implementation (fixup to avoid the memlock manager) that the lib would share, then separating it further once it actually exists and is useful
169 2014-10-16 08:22:45 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well 'a basic level' of debugging resistance, e.g. block ptrace and locking memory is table stakes.
170 2014-10-16 08:23:22 <coryfields_> wumpus: ok, i can imagine a split that way, then. something like CKey and friends requiring an allocator (in a general sense, not necessarily in the stl sense) at creation time
171 2014-10-16 08:23:52 <wumpus> coryfields: possibly - or require that the caller allocates
172 2014-10-16 08:24:04 <wumpus> coryfields: does the library need to do any allocation of keys?
173 2014-10-16 08:24:32 <wumpus> if it's 'signing' I'd imagine that a key is passed in, and your signer will just use it
174 2014-10-16 08:25:02 <wumpus> then it's secure if you can avoid copying it around unnecessarily
175 2014-10-16 08:25:14 <wumpus> but maybe you can't, I don't know
176 2014-10-16 08:25:59 <coryfields_> yea, that makes sense
177 2014-10-16 08:26:01 <sipa> getting key signing (and maybe something very abstract like CKeyStore) and script signing into a library sounds nice, but i really wouldn't go as far as putting actual wallet behavior in a lib
178 2014-10-16 08:26:18 <coryfields_> so then... do we mlock the passed-in key? :p
179 2014-10-16 08:26:27 <coryfields_> (joking)
180 2014-10-16 08:26:33 <sipa> the caller is responsible for having it mlocked if they want that
181 2014-10-16 08:26:45 <sinetek> http://frozencache.blogspot.ca/2009/01/concept.html
182 2014-10-16 08:27:00 <wumpus> no, we don't mlock the passed-in key, the caller already has to have done that or it makes no sense (you're too late!)
183 2014-10-16 08:27:12 <gmaxwell> sinetek: this isn't helpful.
184 2014-10-16 08:27:18 <coryfields_> sipa: yea, agreed. after thinking on it for a min, that'd pretty much defeat the purpose
185 2014-10-16 08:27:28 <sinetek> ok. i'll stop
186 2014-10-16 08:27:29 <coryfields_> (any wallet behavior in the lib)
187 2014-10-16 08:28:03 <gmaxwell> sinetek: also in that space there are much more efficient approaches, when bluematt is away if that stuff interest you, you should chat him up in #bitcoin. But its much too low level for our general concerns.
188 2014-10-16 08:29:21 <sinetek> will do
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190 2014-10-16 08:29:33 <coryfields_> i'll explor that a bit tomorrow and see how tangled up it is
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192 2014-10-16 08:29:56 <coryfields_> would that make sense to you guys as the next logical step for libification, or is there something more obvious?
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194 2014-10-16 08:30:23 <wumpus> first step = script library, second step = UTXO library ?
195 2014-10-16 08:30:39 <sipa> well, there's two directions
196 2014-10-16 08:31:00 <sipa> a script library (which may be more than now, as it could also do signing, maybe support non-transaction use cases, ...)
197 2014-10-16 08:31:01 <coryfields_> wumpus: script library meaning what, exactly?
198 2014-10-16 08:31:09 <wumpus> I like compiling bitcoind with -rdynamic and linking that? *ducks*
199 2014-10-16 08:31:20 lclc is now known as lclc_bnc
200 2014-10-16 08:31:29 <sipa> and a consensus library (which combines everything for consensus, including utxo behavior, block validity, script validation)
201 2014-10-16 08:31:32 <sipa> which overlap
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203 2014-10-16 08:32:53 <sipa> a general script library is certainly easier than a consensus library
204 2014-10-16 08:32:53 banghouse has joined
205 2014-10-16 08:33:07 <sipa> as consensus code is still heavily intertwined with p2p code in main
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207 2014-10-16 08:33:10 <wumpus> script library is what we're working on as first step; consensus/utxo would include leveldb and basic block management
208 2014-10-16 08:33:27 <sipa> oh, i wouldn't even go that far
209 2014-10-16 08:33:34 <wumpus> (which indeed would have to be peeled from the P2P code)
210 2014-10-16 08:33:40 <sipa> it could let you do your own UTXO database, and have hooks to fetch things
211 2014-10-16 08:33:55 <sipa> there is a ton of consensus code that is not UTXO handling
212 2014-10-16 08:34:04 <sipa> like which script validity flags to use when
213 2014-10-16 08:34:16 <wumpus> it could, but it may well be that leveldb has some specific properties that the consensus relies on
214 2014-10-16 08:34:21 <sipa> no
215 2014-10-16 08:34:33 <sipa> it doesn't even use iteration
216 2014-10-16 08:34:38 <wumpus> after all that was the case before with berkeleydb
217 2014-10-16 08:34:39 <sipa> it's just a key-value store
218 2014-10-16 08:34:39 <wumpus> ok...
219 2014-10-16 08:35:09 <sipa> look at CCoinsViewDB
220 2014-10-16 08:35:11 <wumpus> so you're 100% sure that leveldb has no bugs that we indirectly rely on?
221 2014-10-16 08:35:23 <sipa> i didn't say that
222 2014-10-16 08:35:42 <sipa> but assuming leveldb has no bugs, we should be able to swap leveldb for any other bugfree key-value store
223 2014-10-16 08:35:50 <wumpus> ok in that case I'd also be more inclined to allow luke-jr's --with-external-leveldb
224 2014-10-16 08:36:10 <sinetek> i had success swapping berkeley btw
225 2014-10-16 08:36:22 <wumpus> I always rejected such changes because I assumed we were considering leveldb to be part of the consensus-critical code
226 2014-10-16 08:36:22 easye has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
227 2014-10-16 08:36:26 <sinetek> wrote a db backing for sqlite
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230 2014-10-16 08:37:00 <sipa> wumpus: wait wait
231 2014-10-16 08:37:05 <sipa> we use leveldb for more than the utxo set
232 2014-10-16 08:37:12 <wumpus> 'assuming leveldb has no bugs'... famous last words? :-)
233 2014-10-16 08:37:34 <coryfields_> sipa: you could "do your own" meaning that it's abstract enough to be stuffed into mysql or json or anything in between, as defined by the application? or a particular store-format that the application implements?
234 2014-10-16 08:37:41 <sipa> coryfields_: sure
235 2014-10-16 08:37:42 banghouse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
236 2014-10-16 08:37:52 <sipa> coryfields_: there is one: CCoinsViewCache
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238 2014-10-16 08:38:17 <wumpus> sipa: I know, we use it for the block index as well
239 2014-10-16 08:38:18 <sipa> but for low level stuff: you can swap out CCoinsViewDB for anything else
240 2014-10-16 08:38:32 <sipa> yeah, i'm strictly only speaking about the UTXO set here
241 2014-10-16 08:38:51 <sipa> but the block database is much less complex
242 2014-10-16 08:38:54 <coryfields_> ok, good.
243 2014-10-16 08:38:59 <phantomcircuit> if anybody is interested this is what im running for mlockall currently http://pastebin.com/bp0suXjX
244 2014-10-16 08:39:02 <gmaxwell> there can be multiple levels e.g. libconsensusL0 libconsensusL1 ... if you force use of leveldb you'll preclude some users.
245 2014-10-16 08:39:02 <sipa> though it relies on for example iterating over the entires
246 2014-10-16 08:39:15 <sipa> *entries
247 2014-10-16 08:39:40 <Luke-Jr> IMO people should be able to swap out leveldb⦠as long as they understand the risk in doing so
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249 2014-10-16 08:40:01 <sipa> also, we may at some point experiment with a by-txout indexed UTXO set rather than a per-tx indexed one
250 2014-10-16 08:40:01 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well my original idea was also to just provide a database interface, and have the host application decide what backend to use, but I think it was petertodd that convinced me that leveldb was important part of the consensus
251 2014-10-16 08:40:24 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's "accidentally" part of consensus, like the CPU itself is
252 2014-10-16 08:40:32 <sipa> for which leveldb would be incredibly useful, because it compacts reused prefixes in keys
253 2014-10-16 08:40:36 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes - it is accidental, no doubt there
254 2014-10-16 08:41:01 <sipa> well, everyone would have said the same thing about bdb
255 2014-10-16 08:41:06 <gmaxwell> well thus why I said levels there. It's not part of the consensus if the interface and behavior is perfectly defined and reliable... an unsafe assumption today, but perhaps better in the future.
256 2014-10-16 08:41:17 <sipa> everyone thought that it was just a key-value store, and it was
257 2014-10-16 08:41:25 <sipa> but it failed to do some large updates
258 2014-10-16 08:41:34 <gmaxwell> leveldb has also had similar bugs, but before our usage, fwiw.
259 2014-10-16 08:41:39 <wumpus> exactly, everyone said the same about bdb ... 'assuming bdb has no bugs'...
260 2014-10-16 08:41:44 <sipa> nobody would say that it failed in its property as being a key-value store
261 2014-10-16 08:42:08 <sipa> it just had a limitation we didn't know about (and we had a bug that caused failure to write to consider a block invalid)
262 2014-10-16 08:42:30 <Luke-Jr> heh, to make it worse, IIRC we explicitly *set* the limit lower than it was by default XD
263 2014-10-16 08:42:36 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well personal risks are fine, but risks to the network are more serious
264 2014-10-16 08:42:41 <gmaxwell> I do think that pretty little blinding idea was cute, annoyingly it wouldn't have saved us from anything we've seen so far.
265 2014-10-16 08:43:22 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: if a major linux distro uses bitcoin in a certain way that causes it to split from consensus, that would be bad
266 2014-10-16 08:43:32 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: we can't eliminate risks to the network. the question is when do we give up trying.
267 2014-10-16 08:44:08 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes...
268 2014-10-16 08:44:40 weilu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
269 2014-10-16 08:44:48 <phantomcircuit> the question is when does the value of eliminated risk become lower than the value of other things
270 2014-10-16 08:44:59 <phantomcircuit> which is a dynamic equilibrium
271 2014-10-16 08:45:01 <Luke-Jr> whether that's before or after leveldb is debatable, and we want people who disagree with our decision to still use the code for the rest..
272 2014-10-16 08:45:05 attilah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
273 2014-10-16 08:45:06 <phantomcircuit> (ie not an equilibrium)
274 2014-10-16 08:46:40 <sipa> we should perhaps have tests that try to do a sync while some leveldb writes fail
275 2014-10-16 08:46:46 <sipa> and see whether it recovers after reload
276 2014-10-16 08:47:11 <wumpus> that it either recovers or exits with a fatal error
277 2014-10-16 08:47:25 <wumpus> continue with a corrupted state is the worst outcome
278 2014-10-16 08:47:30 <sipa> yup
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280 2014-10-16 08:48:10 <phantomcircuit> pretty sure leveldb will happily continue in bizarre corrupted states
281 2014-10-16 08:48:23 <wumpus> that's what made the leveldb-on-ARM issue a bit scary, by the way: nodes would run with the copied database, but the results would be flakey... luckily flakey enough to not work at all
282 2014-10-16 08:48:39 <wumpus> but if it was more subtle it'd have been pretty bad
283 2014-10-16 08:48:45 <sipa> yeah - it's enough that _either_ leveldb or we detect the corruption
284 2014-10-16 08:49:03 <phantomcircuit> i believe that leveldb silently ignore corrupt entries in the journal
285 2014-10-16 08:49:12 <phantomcircuit> it simply skips them
286 2014-10-16 08:49:25 <phantomcircuit> so a deletion from the utxo could be missed
287 2014-10-16 08:49:45 <wumpus> btw still no progress on https://code.google.com/p/leveldb/issues/detail?id=237
288 2014-10-16 08:49:50 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i believe we discussed this ~6months ago
289 2014-10-16 08:49:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i know
290 2014-10-16 08:50:05 <coryfields_> wumpus: great find on that, btw
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292 2014-10-16 08:51:19 <sipa> yup, very nice detective work :)
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294 2014-10-16 08:51:28 <wumpus> thanks :)
295 2014-10-16 08:51:29 <coryfields_> so, backing up to the lib discussion a bit...
296 2014-10-16 08:51:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is there a single point at which all of the updates to the utxo are queued?
297 2014-10-16 08:51:39 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes
298 2014-10-16 08:51:54 <coryfields_> sipa: would you be opposed to adding signing to the current lib work, ignoring what the name of that lib ends up being?
299 2014-10-16 08:52:06 <phantomcircuit> so it should be relatively easy to write a custom delta file and then merge the delta with a full snapshot async
300 2014-10-16 08:52:06 <coryfields_> or would you prefer to focus solely on validation at first?
301 2014-10-16 08:52:18 <sipa> coryfields_: it would be a different library, imho
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303 2014-10-16 08:52:24 <sipa> as i said; one for validation, one for signing
304 2014-10-16 08:52:29 <phantomcircuit> ie disk space would expand and then contract as the snapshot was merged with the delta for each block
305 2014-10-16 08:52:31 <coryfields_> i only ask because it seems like a relatively easy target
306 2014-10-16 08:52:37 <sipa> eh, one for validation, one for general script stuff
307 2014-10-16 08:52:43 <phantomcircuit> which iirc is similar to what leveldb does anyways
308 2014-10-16 08:52:55 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yup
309 2014-10-16 08:53:10 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
310 2014-10-16 08:53:23 <coryfields_> ok
311 2014-10-16 08:53:35 <sipa> coryfields_: no, i think making script stuff into a library is fine, but i think it wuld be different from the current lib
312 2014-10-16 08:54:03 <sipa> (and the script stuff is an easier target that more-than-script consensus stuff imho)
313 2014-10-16 08:54:32 <coryfields_> sipa: i'm mainly thinking in terms of the first release of the lib. seems signing would be easy to add, but not worth doing if they're going to end up split up differently later
314 2014-10-16 08:54:48 <sipa> coryfields_: please don't do that
315 2014-10-16 08:54:58 <coryfields_> ok, understood.
316 2014-10-16 08:55:03 <sipa> i think it's important to have a lib that does consensus _and nothing more_
317 2014-10-16 08:55:17 <sipa> as in: doesn't aim to be "the bitcoin library"
318 2014-10-16 08:55:31 <Luke-Jr> I agree with sipa
319 2014-10-16 08:55:44 <sipa> just aims to be "the one part of bitcoin that you really shouldn't reimplement"
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323 2014-10-16 08:57:02 * sipa zZzZ
324 2014-10-16 08:57:32 <coryfields_> jeez, 5am. me too. nnite.
325 2014-10-16 08:58:20 <wumpus> agree with sipa
326 2014-10-16 08:59:01 <sipa> a script signing/util library probably also needs higher velocity, especially if we want to it to do interesting multisig/p2sh/... stuff
327 2014-10-16 08:59:03 <wumpus> that would be the first step, that doesn't rule out doing "the bitcoin library" later of course
328 2014-10-16 08:59:10 <wumpus> but it's much lower priority
329 2014-10-16 08:59:16 <sipa> as we could add support for merging signatures of various kinds, etc
330 2014-10-16 08:59:34 <sipa> while changes to the consensus part would need much higher scrutiny
331 2014-10-16 08:59:48 <coryfields_> i'm certainly not interested in doing "a library", just that there are different ways to split how the libs could be defined/used
332 2014-10-16 08:59:49 <wumpus> (and there are already plenty of other initiatives in that direction; for Bitcoin the network it's most important to have the consensus unified)
333 2014-10-16 09:00:17 <sipa> (as in: whatever a signing/utility library does can always be verified using consensus code, so there is very little risk in it doing invalid things)
334 2014-10-16 09:01:04 <coryfields_> sipa: btw, before i forget, not sure if you saw earlier... full sync on osx with headers-first, no problems
335 2014-10-16 09:01:14 <coryfields_> really gone now
336 2014-10-16 09:01:33 lclc_bnc is now known as lclc
337 2014-10-16 09:01:36 <sipa> hmm that statement is too strong... it could still reveal private keys, leak things, result in loss of privacy, malleable signatures, ...
338 2014-10-16 09:01:39 <sipa> coryfields_: cool
339 2014-10-16 09:02:09 * sipa .sleep(28800);
340 2014-10-16 09:02:53 <Luke-Jr> too long
341 2014-10-16 09:03:22 Zifre_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
342 2014-10-16 09:04:06 <coryfields_> Luke-Jr: send him a spurious wake in 10000 or so for me ;)
343 2014-10-16 09:04:26 <Luke-Jr> :P
344 2014-10-16 09:04:39 <Luke-Jr> coryfields_: that'd screw up his day :/
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356 2014-10-16 09:12:45 <wumpus> set_current_state(TASK_UNINTERRUPTIBLE) :p
357 2014-10-16 09:16:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, maybe just, things which almost certainly wont fail because of resource constraints
358 2014-10-16 09:16:07 <phantomcircuit> hmm that isn't right either
359 2014-10-16 09:16:50 <phantomcircuit> stuff that will fail 100% of the time when wrong vs fails some % of the time when wrong
360 2014-10-16 09:17:04 <phantomcircuit> random failures being less dangerous but still dangerous
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411 2014-10-16 10:34:09 Guest7420 is now known as anarchystar
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416 2014-10-16 10:34:43 <anarchystar> https://act.eff.org/action/stop-the-bitlicense <- sign this stuff guys! spread the word
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423 2014-10-16 10:52:32 <t7> do i have to be a yank?
424 2014-10-16 10:53:56 <hearn> hey anarchystar
425 2014-10-16 10:55:04 <anarchystar> hey mike ;)
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832 2014-10-16 18:17:43 <lechuga_> hmm
833 2014-10-16 18:18:23 <lechuga_> has any1 tried writing a CCoinsViewDB backed by SQL/something else
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838 2014-10-16 18:20:57 <sipa> not afaik
839 2014-10-16 18:21:04 <sipa> it would also be very useless
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842 2014-10-16 18:21:31 <sipa> as it stores information in a highly custom compact form - it's not like you can easily find addresses or scripts in it
843 2014-10-16 18:21:48 <gmaxwell> it would also be uselessly slow.
844 2014-10-16 18:22:00 <sipa> sqlite may be acceptbale
845 2014-10-16 18:24:06 <sipa> wumpus, gmaxwell: https://github.com/google/leveldb <- leveldb 1.18
846 2014-10-16 18:24:29 <sipa> google moved it to github
847 2014-10-16 18:24:54 <earlz> What was the rationale for moving to leveldb instead of, say, sqlite?
848 2014-10-16 18:26:23 <sipa> earlz: we don't need a relation database; we need a key-value store...
849 2014-10-16 18:26:27 <sipa> *relational
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851 2014-10-16 18:26:56 <earlz> but it'd be nice for txindex
852 2014-10-16 18:27:15 <sipa> no
853 2014-10-16 18:27:38 <sipa> txindex stores txid -> diskposition entries
854 2014-10-16 18:27:46 <earlz> it'd be nice for mythical things that aren't currently in teh reference wallet (ie, address lookup)
855 2014-10-16 18:27:54 hashtag_ has joined
856 2014-10-16 18:28:12 <sipa> that would still require storing address information in those indexes, which we currently don't
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858 2014-10-16 18:28:20 <sipa> sql doesn't let you magically look up things that don't exist
859 2014-10-16 18:28:49 <earlz> yea, but you could have a -addressindex or some such to optionally make it.. but at that point I bet sqlite would choke
860 2014-10-16 18:29:09 <sipa> there is an -addrindex patch that i wrote long ago, and sql would still not help with it
861 2014-10-16 18:29:18 <sipa> all it requires is maintaining an address based index
862 2014-10-16 18:29:48 <sipa> sql is meaningful when you want to store highly structured information and want to do arbitrary queries over it
863 2014-10-16 18:29:52 <earlz> where is the patch for that?
864 2014-10-16 18:30:07 <sipa> some pull request that i closed long ago, because i consider it a terrible idea
865 2014-10-16 18:30:31 <earlz> Well, being able to query some things form the wallet would be useful, but not definitely not required of the reference wallet
866 2014-10-16 18:30:44 <sipa> you can query things from the wallet
867 2014-10-16 18:30:48 brand0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
868 2014-10-16 18:30:52 <earlz> beyond rawtransaction x 1
869 2014-10-16 18:31:07 <sipa> getrawtransaction is not a wallet RPC but a block database RPC
870 2014-10-16 18:31:15 <sipa> use gettransaction is you want to query the wallet
871 2014-10-16 18:31:24 <sipa> which does the same and more, and works for every wallet transaction
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873 2014-10-16 18:31:40 <earlz> But I'm concerned with transactions where I don't own the key, etc
874 2014-10-16 18:31:48 <sipa> then you're not talking about the wallet
875 2014-10-16 18:32:05 <sipa> you can use watchonly keys in the wallet now, though
876 2014-10-16 18:32:12 <sipa> which is much more efficient than an addrindex patch would be
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878 2014-10-16 18:32:20 <earlz> either way, my current "block explorer" works around it decently.. just wish it could do things at a reasonable speed
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880 2014-10-16 18:32:23 <sipa> and deals correctly with unconfirmed transactions
881 2014-10-16 18:32:35 <earlz> is that in 0.9.3? Or only 0.10 master
882 2014-10-16 18:32:37 <sipa> yeah, for block explorers an addrindex is definitely useful
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885 2014-10-16 18:33:00 <sipa> but it makes bad practice just too easy (write a wallet that assumes the entire block index is available and indexed)
886 2014-10-16 18:33:18 <earlz> what do you mean?
887 2014-10-16 18:33:35 <sipa> we want to get rid of the notion that every node even has the full block chain
888 2014-10-16 18:33:49 <earlz> ah true
889 2014-10-16 18:34:01 <sipa> doing a query over all transactions requires not only all transactions to be available, but to also chave them indexed
890 2014-10-16 18:34:10 <earlz> Well, in theory it doesn't matter.. you just track utxo and iterate over all utxos associated with an address
891 2014-10-16 18:34:10 <sipa> if you need to track a particular address, add it to your wallet
892 2014-10-16 18:34:28 <sipa> utxo indexing is yet another thing, and much more scalable than a full addrindex
893 2014-10-16 18:34:37 <earlz> is spv considered permanently out of scope of the reference wallet?
894 2014-10-16 18:34:41 <sipa> no
895 2014-10-16 18:35:05 <sipa> i'd very much like the reference wallet to turn into a separate process that runs as an SPV wallet and connects (optionally) to a full node
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897 2014-10-16 18:35:29 <earlz> I'll use the a word... but some altcoin apparently ported their reference wallet (bitcoin 0.8 based probably) to use spv
898 2014-10-16 18:35:32 <sipa> both for security reasons, and for showing people that wallets and nodes really are independent things
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900 2014-10-16 18:35:42 <sipa> cool
901 2014-10-16 18:35:46 <sipa> which?
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903 2014-10-16 18:36:20 <earlz> I think shadowcoin, or shadowcash something like that.. they've done a lot of other radical stuff... but to me that proves that it is at least possible without extremely significant dev time
904 2014-10-16 18:37:01 <earlz> I assume extra QA effort and the criticalness of the code involved with bitcoin would make that take a lot of time either way though
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922 2014-10-16 18:55:17 <mrebola> Anyone have experience using abe ? I want to know how can I make a cronjob to update the mysql database automatically once another block has been resolved
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942 2014-10-16 19:18:04 <BlueMatt> sipa: on headers-first, it looks like, on receiving an inv from a peer with a new block, we immediately send a getheaders, and then a getdata...so we do save the roundtrip, but send the getheaders first?
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944 2014-10-16 19:18:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: the getheaders is sent so that if the block is on a different branch, we can connect the block when we receive it
945 2014-10-16 19:19:18 <sipa> otherwise we'd need to reject it (or have orphan handling)
946 2014-10-16 19:19:19 <BlueMatt> but before the getdata?
947 2014-10-16 19:19:23 <sipa> duh
948 2014-10-16 19:19:27 <BlueMatt> oh, orphan
949 2014-10-16 19:19:28 <BlueMatt> yea
950 2014-10-16 19:19:29 <sipa> so that the headers arrive before the block
951 2014-10-16 19:19:43 <BlueMatt> yea, ok
952 2014-10-16 19:21:51 <gmaxwell> earlz: some other implementations have tried sqlite and found the performance to be unacceptably slow.
953 2014-10-16 19:23:04 <earlz> eh. unfortunate
954 2014-10-16 19:23:35 pen has joined
955 2014-10-16 19:23:47 <sipa> i don't understand why you'd want SQL for this - it only supports exactly one type of query anyway (given a txid, give me the utxo entries)
956 2014-10-16 19:23:48 <earlz> best bet is probably doing something like toshi... except for through the RPC interface instead of running a full node
957 2014-10-16 19:24:00 <sipa> what is toshi?
958 2014-10-16 19:24:13 _yoy_ has joined
959 2014-10-16 19:24:32 <earlz> coinbase's block explorer. Stores a lot of useful data in PostgreSQL for easy querying
960 2014-10-16 19:25:15 <sipa> yeah, bitcoind's purpose is not that
961 2014-10-16 19:25:27 <sipa> it is optimized for fast validation and relay - not querying
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963 2014-10-16 19:35:34 sinetek has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
964 2014-10-16 19:36:37 <lechuga_> keeping a real-time view of the blockchain and memory pool in postgres is challenging
965 2014-10-16 19:36:48 REiN^ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
966 2014-10-16 19:37:02 <earlz> I would not imagine it to be easy
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969 2014-10-16 19:37:41 <Luke-Jr> also not a good idea
970 2014-10-16 19:38:03 <lechuga_> y not
971 2014-10-16 19:38:27 <dgenr8> no api to bitcoind, no indexes, AND no separate database? folks have to do something.
972 2014-10-16 19:38:52 <sipa> i think creating a separate non-validating node that builds indexes is an awesome idea
973 2014-10-16 19:39:07 <sipa> it just has different priorities than bitcoind
974 2014-10-16 19:39:10 <lechuga_> easy to turn validation off and sit behind trusted nodes
975 2014-10-16 19:39:20 <sipa> exactly
976 2014-10-16 19:40:11 <lechuga_> which is how soemthing like toshi would work in a production env
977 2014-10-16 19:40:33 <sipa> should, yes
978 2014-10-16 19:41:11 <lechuga_> it's still challenging to efficiently use postgres for that
979 2014-10-16 19:41:25 <lechuga_> and maintaining a strictly consistent view of the network
980 2014-10-16 19:41:38 <sipa> there is no such thing as "consistent view of the network"
981 2014-10-16 19:42:19 <sipa> consistent with a particular chain, sure
982 2014-10-16 19:42:54 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
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984 2014-10-16 19:43:21 <sipa> but there's no need to be consistent with your own bitcoind i mean - as your own bitcoind is not more consistant than any other node in the network
985 2014-10-16 19:43:50 Arnavion has joined
986 2014-10-16 19:44:53 <lechuga_> but its mempool should be consistent with itself
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988 2014-10-16 19:45:14 <sipa> there are no guarantees on the mempool whatsoever
989 2014-10-16 19:45:30 <sipa> oh you mean internally, sure
990 2014-10-16 19:45:43 <sipa> but that doesn't really matter - each node can have their own mempool
991 2014-10-16 19:46:10 Dizzle has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
992 2014-10-16 19:46:15 <lechuga_> yeah but they shouldnt have conflicting txs in it for example
993 2014-10-16 19:46:36 <lechuga_> and they should properly mark conflicts and dependents
994 2014-10-16 19:46:40 <lechuga_> for api users
995 2014-10-16 19:47:26 <lechuga_> conflicts that arise as a result of connecting a block which spends the inputs
996 2014-10-16 19:47:35 <lechuga_> of a mempool tx
997 2014-10-16 19:49:35 <phantomcircuit> <gmaxwell> [19:14:26] earlz: some other implementations have tried sqlite and found the performance to be unacceptably slow.
998 2014-10-16 19:49:47 <phantomcircuit> sqlite performance is acceptable if it's configured correctly
999 2014-10-16 19:49:55 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: because the overhead to execute <any query> when there's only like 2 or 3 useful queries is lame
1000 2014-10-16 19:50:02 <phantomcircuit> you have to explicitly enable the write ahead log and a bunch of other things
1001 2014-10-16 19:50:16 Blackreign has joined
1002 2014-10-16 19:50:20 <Luke-Jr> lechuga_: you need probably 100 GB for such a thing in pgSQL, right?
1003 2014-10-16 19:50:37 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, it's ~x5
1004 2014-10-16 19:51:17 <Luke-Jr> vs 650 MB chainstate
1005 2014-10-16 19:51:24 <Luke-Jr> which I presume includes the txid index
1006 2014-10-16 19:51:30 gigavps has joined
1007 2014-10-16 19:51:35 <Luke-Jr> + 2 GB for a scriptPubKey/output-spent index
1008 2014-10-16 19:51:46 Trix has joined
1009 2014-10-16 19:51:47 <phantomcircuit> yup
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1015 2014-10-16 20:02:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'd really like to get secp256k1 in exclusively for signing sometime soon.
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1017 2014-10-16 20:06:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: that requires some decent refactoring to split the key signing and verification code, if we don't want libsecp256k1 to also end up in the script library
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1019 2014-10-16 20:07:22 <sipa> iirc coryfields_ is doing some of that already, though
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1021 2014-10-16 20:07:37 <coryfields_> sipa: i'm looking at that right now, have a brief plan if you'd like to discuss
1022 2014-10-16 20:07:43 <sipa> sure
1023 2014-10-16 20:08:10 <coryfields_> we probably have somewhat different goals, so probably good to see how much we align atm
1024 2014-10-16 20:08:32 <lechuga_> luke-jr: correct (at a minimum)
1025 2014-10-16 20:08:40 <sipa> i guess one question is whether we actually still want openssl code for signing
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1027 2014-10-16 20:08:55 <sipa> swapping things is easier than making them configurable
1028 2014-10-16 20:09:10 <lechuga_> but i think there are more than 2 or 3 useful queries
1029 2014-10-16 20:09:14 <coryfields_> first step, make CPrivKey a real class, move most of CKey into it, wallet is the primary user of CPrivKey....
1030 2014-10-16 20:09:25 cbeams has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1031 2014-10-16 20:09:47 <gmaxwell> I don't want the openssl code for signing. It's timing attack vulnerable and the fixes they done where they've fixes things are pretty insignificant.
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1034 2014-10-16 20:10:02 <coryfields_> move the actual functionality other than storage (signing, deriving, etc) into free functions that take simple char* pointers. CPrivKey calls those
1035 2014-10-16 20:10:40 <coryfields_> the free functions are then free to implement as they choose. there could easily be one set for libsecp and one for ssl
1036 2014-10-16 20:10:44 <sipa> CPrivKey just needs to die
1037 2014-10-16 20:10:56 <sipa> it's only needed to encapsulate OpenSSL-encoded private keys
1038 2014-10-16 20:11:05 <sipa> which we still need for compatibility, but nothing more
1039 2014-10-16 20:11:21 <coryfields_> well we want some storage class in wallet for privkeys, no?
1040 2014-10-16 20:11:31 <lechuga_> void*
1041 2014-10-16 20:11:59 <sipa> wait, we use CKey for storage?
1042 2014-10-16 20:12:27 <sipa> oh, nevermind
1043 2014-10-16 20:12:42 <sipa> coryfields_: CKey is fine for storage, no?
1044 2014-10-16 20:12:45 <coryfields_> er, language breakdown i think. how about.. privkey encapsulation
1045 2014-10-16 20:12:51 realtime has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1046 2014-10-16 20:12:53 <Luke-Jr> is there a reason we're using a random k for libsecp256k1 right now?
1047 2014-10-16 20:12:59 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
1048 2014-10-16 20:13:02 <sipa> needs fixing
1049 2014-10-16 20:13:15 <sipa> coryfields_: i don't understand what you're trying to do
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1052 2014-10-16 20:14:45 <coryfields_> sipa: i'd like to split them up so that there's a class that holds the privkey for the wallet, and a set of functions that act on the data it holds. the lib would use those functions without the storage class
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1054 2014-10-16 20:15:18 <sipa> right
1055 2014-10-16 20:15:30 <sipa> so i thin kthe correct data structure to hold private keys is what is currently in CKey
1056 2014-10-16 20:15:41 <sipa> CPrivKey is just legacy
1057 2014-10-16 20:15:54 <coryfields_> yes, pretty much.
1058 2014-10-16 20:16:20 <sipa> but moving the CKey methods out of CKey and into some other class, with methods that take a CKey sounds fine to me
1059 2014-10-16 20:16:23 <gmaxwell> (insignificant, they basically cut a bit off K's entropy to make the most significant bit 1.. to reduce the timing leak in the multiply.. which is inadequate, ... but then they go to use a non-constant-time modular inverse for K.)
1060 2014-10-16 20:17:00 <coryfields_> sipa: but i think that CKey (or something similar to its structure) needs to be part of the wallet, rather than a general structure to be shared with the lib as well
1061 2014-10-16 20:17:21 <sipa> why?
1062 2014-10-16 20:17:27 <sipa> signing is wider than just the wallet
1063 2014-10-16 20:17:44 <coryfields_> mainly for issues like the ones we discussed last night. We may want different mem backings for the priv keys
1064 2014-10-16 20:18:00 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1065 2014-10-16 20:18:47 <sipa> so how about: CKey remains something like it is now, and if you want its storage secured, use a unique_ptr<CKey, secure_allocator>?
1066 2014-10-16 20:19:12 <sipa> so the storage format remains defined by the signing code, without it needing to concern itself with secure allocation
1067 2014-10-16 20:19:40 <sipa> (just assuming that private keys always need secure allocation is of course easier...)
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1069 2014-10-16 20:20:36 <sipa> wait, not unique_ptr; but there is certainly a way to do the heap allocation and securing of it on top
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1071 2014-10-16 20:21:19 <coryfields_> mm, i disagree. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume (as gmaxwell mentioned iirc) that libs/programs may want the privkey self-allocated. secureembedded hw is what comes to mind first
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1073 2014-10-16 20:21:31 <sipa> yes, that makes sense
1074 2014-10-16 20:21:56 <sipa> but that still doesn't mean that CKey needs to be in the wallet
1075 2014-10-16 20:21:56 owlhooter has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1076 2014-10-16 20:22:01 <sipa> just its allocation
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1081 2014-10-16 20:23:20 <sipa> but signing code should be more generic than the wallet - stuff like message signing or raw transaction signing or alert signing don't need a wallet, and shouldn't depend on a wallet just to be able to get access to signing code
1082 2014-10-16 20:23:53 <coryfields_> nono, that's not what i intended
1083 2014-10-16 20:24:14 <sipa> ok, then i misunderstood
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1085 2014-10-16 20:24:55 <coryfields_> i'd like to have a set of functions that take simple pointers and sizes, and return simple pointers and sizes. very c-like, so that it can be hooked up externally down the road
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1087 2014-10-16 20:25:24 <coryfields_> wallet (and elsewhere that needs it) can have a storage class to make life easier, and call those functions from it
1088 2014-10-16 20:25:48 <sipa> so... a libsecp256k1-like interface? :)
1089 2014-10-16 20:25:58 <coryfields_> that would end up looking like CKey, but the actual functionality would be moved outside so that the lib could use it without the class
1090 2014-10-16 20:26:01 <coryfields_> heh, pretty much :)
1091 2014-10-16 20:26:11 <sipa> CKey is really just an encapsulated 32-byte key (as is passed to libsecp256k1) + its compression flag
1092 2014-10-16 20:26:32 <sipa> the one reason not to do that is that perhaps one day we'll want different key types
1093 2014-10-16 20:26:47 <sipa> but let's not worry about that now
1094 2014-10-16 20:27:36 <sipa> so, sure
1095 2014-10-16 20:28:26 <sipa> then again... if we just switch to lisecp256k1 for signing (rather than making it configurable), that API already exists
1096 2014-10-16 20:28:31 <sipa> though we probably want a C++ wrapper
1097 2014-10-16 20:30:18 <coryfields_> ok, i'm going to do a quick version of that split and see how it turns out. other main reason i'm interested is that it solves the boost problem in a different way, so that huge patchset could pretty much go away
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1099 2014-10-16 20:33:38 <coryfields_> sipa: i was going to ask you that, actually. while i'm moving stuff, you're ok with me continuing to assume a 32byte key?
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1103 2014-10-16 20:38:35 <sipa> coryfields_: well, no; it's a 32-byte array + boolean :)
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1105 2014-10-16 20:39:23 <coryfields_> heh right
1106 2014-10-16 20:39:39 <sipa> which is why Ckey is a pretty good encapsulation
1107 2014-10-16 20:40:01 <sipa> and I think reusing that makes sense
1108 2014-10-16 20:40:15 <sipa> you feel like you need to go more low-level still?
1109 2014-10-16 20:40:19 <coryfields_> right. outside of there, caller will just have to keep up with that and pass it in everywhere
1110 2014-10-16 20:40:28 <coryfields_> no... i'm just terrible at putting my thoughts down :)
1111 2014-10-16 20:40:43 <sipa> CKey's fValid can probably go
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1113 2014-10-16 20:43:12 <coryfields_> sipa: i'll ping you with a quick POC in a bit. probably easier for both of us that way :)
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1118 2014-10-16 20:45:27 <kruug> getting inputs built with gitian, `./bin/gbuild ../bitcoin/contrib/gitian-descriptors/gitian-osx-qt.yml` returns this error: http://paste.debian.net/127235/
1119 2014-10-16 20:45:31 <kruug> How can I fix that?
1120 2014-10-16 20:46:07 <coryfields_> kruug: that's not the error. the error will be in var/build.log
1121 2014-10-16 20:46:45 <kruug> this? http://paste.debian.net/127236/
1122 2014-10-16 20:47:02 <kruug> oh, nvmd...didn't realize there was more...
1123 2014-10-16 20:48:45 <kruug> here's the end of hte file: http://paste.debian.net/127238/
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1125 2014-10-16 20:49:44 <coryfields_> kruug: whole thing, please
1126 2014-10-16 20:49:55 <kruug> all 4103 lines?
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1132 2014-10-16 20:51:06 <coryfields_> yes
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1134 2014-10-16 20:53:03 <kruug> coryfields_: http://www.filedropper.com/build
1135 2014-10-16 20:53:11 <kruug> build.log file.
1136 2014-10-16 20:53:40 <kruug> trying to open it in Notepad didn't have proper line endings, and opening in Sublime returned hex output O.o
1137 2014-10-16 20:55:53 <coryfields_> where did you get your sdk?
1138 2014-10-16 20:56:22 <kruug> https://github.com/JuliaEichler/Mac_OSX_SDKs/tree/master/MacOSX10.7.sdk
1139 2014-10-16 20:56:37 <kruug> I don't have a Mac handy to roll my own :/
1140 2014-10-16 20:56:58 <coryfields_> sorry, need a real one. that one's busted.
1141 2014-10-16 20:57:09 <kruug> Do you have one I could download?
1142 2014-10-16 20:57:48 <coryfields_> sorry, i can't distribute. we'd be very grateful if you could work out a way to open it outside of osx, though :)
1143 2014-10-16 20:58:31 <kruug> aside from using OSx86 in a VM, I wouldn't even know where to start :)
1144 2014-10-16 20:59:11 <sipa> does the OSX license even allow running in a VM?
1145 2014-10-16 20:59:18 <kruug> Not legally, no
1146 2014-10-16 21:01:03 <sipa> :(
1147 2014-10-16 21:01:09 <coryfields_> kruug: well, with all sdk's that came before, it could be opened with standard tools. 7zip, for example
1148 2014-10-16 21:01:22 <coryfields_> this one was just packaged differently, and those tools don't extract correctly
1149 2014-10-16 21:02:07 <coryfields_> it might be working again with 10.8/10.9, i can't remember
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1151 2014-10-16 21:03:43 <kruug> See, this is why no one likes Apple...
1152 2014-10-16 21:03:53 <kruug> too freakin' restrictive on EVERYTHING
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1160 2014-10-16 21:14:40 <SomeoneWeird> kruug sipa: it does if your host is a mac :)
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1317 2014-10-16 23:39:31 <jtimon> coryfields I plan to divide core in core/transaction, core/block and core/undo (maybe the undo stuff doesn't belong in core)
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1319 2014-10-16 23:40:13 <jtimon> that way the script stuff could depend only on core/transaction
1320 2014-10-16 23:40:57 <jtimon> sipa said told me you were already moving the undo stuff out of core, is there an open PR for that?
1321 2014-10-16 23:42:43 <sipa> IIRC, it's in his example libconsensusscript branch (don't remember the name), but not yet {R
1322 2014-10-16 23:42:50 <sipa> but not yet PR'ed
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1324 2014-10-16 23:48:00 <jtimon> hmm, only txmempool.o uses CInPoint, but it looks exactly like the txTo and nIn parameters in script
1325 2014-10-16 23:48:46 <jtimon> so I'm not sure if it belongs in core/transaction or txmempool
1326 2014-10-16 23:48:58 <sipa> i'm fine with moving that tot txmempool, actually
1327 2014-10-16 23:49:04 <sipa> it's not a network datastructure
1328 2014-10-16 23:49:13 <sipa> though i thought the wallet used it as well
1329 2014-10-16 23:49:23 <sipa> if it's really only in txmempool, that's perfect
1330 2014-10-16 23:49:31 <jtimon> ok
1331 2014-10-16 23:50:02 <sipa> s/tot/to/
1332 2014-10-16 23:52:33 <jgarzik> Yes. CInPoint never belonged in core.h in the first place TBH.
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1335 2014-10-16 23:54:37 <sipa> CTxOutCompressor doesn't belong there either; IIRC cory is moving that to coins (the only place where it is used)
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1337 2014-10-16 23:54:54 <sipa> and CFeeRate... ugh
1338 2014-10-16 23:54:58 <sipa> what is that doing in core
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1342 2014-10-16 23:56:44 <sipa> the rest seems fine
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1344 2014-10-16 23:57:21 <sipa> CFeeRate is annoying... it's used in txmempool, miner and wallet
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1346 2014-10-16 23:57:44 <sipa> but it's not a network datastructure and is not part of consensus
1347 2014-10-16 23:58:02 <sipa> it also doesn't hurt much
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