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   6 2014-10-17 00:05:22 <coryfields_> i ended up having to move both out on their own
   7 2014-10-17 00:05:27 <coryfields_> sec
   8 2014-10-17 00:05:49 <coryfields_> sipa: iirc, CTxOutCompressor -> coins caused a circular dependency with main
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  11 2014-10-17 00:06:47 <coryfields_> https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/a3443cc7467f7c3e88baeb361b11cc7e3152845d
  12 2014-10-17 00:06:49 <sipa> coryfields_: heh, how does compressor depend on main?
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  14 2014-10-17 00:07:50 <jtimon> so do you mind if I separate core/transaction already? it should help with the script stuff
  15 2014-10-17 00:08:06 <jtimon> also seems independent from your other movements
  16 2014-10-17 00:08:20 <sipa> coryfields_: i don't understand why that would be needed
  17 2014-10-17 00:08:47 <coryfields_> sipa: it might've been undo and not compressor, sec
  18 2014-10-17 00:09:12 <sipa> undo needs txcompressor
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  20 2014-10-17 00:09:44 <sipa> but undo in main, and txcompressor in coins should work - unless i'm missing something
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  24 2014-10-17 00:10:37 <jtimon> also that commit (probably they should be 2 separated commits) seems independently useful and non controversial, any reason not to create a PR with it already?
  25 2014-10-17 00:11:08 <coryfields_> sipa: sorry, i really can't remember the problem now. i've moved way too much stuff around this week
  26 2014-10-17 00:11:12 <sipa> ok
  27 2014-10-17 00:11:22 <coryfields_> sipa: as usual, 95% change i'm just flat-out misremembering
  28 2014-10-17 00:11:39 <sipa> no worries; always better to have something that works
  29 2014-10-17 00:11:55 <sipa> i'm mostly just questioning my own understanding
  30 2014-10-17 00:12:25 <jtimon> sipa any reason to make main fatter instead of having separated files?
  31 2014-10-17 00:13:23 <sipa> i'm not actually a fan of the "one file for every class" mentality
  32 2014-10-17 00:13:24 <coryfields_> jtimon: no reason not to PR it, just trying to keep the code movement to a minimum until there's something to show for it
  33 2014-10-17 00:13:37 <coryfields_> but if it would help you as well, you're welcome to go for it
  34 2014-10-17 00:13:58 <sipa> i'm not opposed to separate files, btw, just saying that it is wrong that something is in core now, and would fit in main
  35 2014-10-17 00:14:19 <sipa> independently moving it to another file (depended on by main, and not by core) accomplishes the same goal
  36 2014-10-17 00:14:36 <jtimon> I see, thanks, I'll move inpoint to txmempool and separate core/transaction for now
  37 2014-10-17 00:15:37 <jtimon> I mean, my slow and low memory laptop some times has problems compiling main already
  38 2014-10-17 00:16:17 <coryfields_> sipa: btw, this key movement is working out really nicely i think. From the looks, i'd much rather do this than the other movements i proposed
  39 2014-10-17 00:16:51 <sipa> jtimon: ha, yes, that's a good reason to split things up, but the actual amount of .cpp code moved is tiny compared to what is already in main i think
  40 2014-10-17 00:17:16 <sipa> and header movement doesn't help here, as you'd still need to (directly or indirectly) include the headers in main
  41 2014-10-17 00:17:22 <sipa> coryfields_: looking forward
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  43 2014-10-17 00:17:35 <jtimon> yeah, was just concerned about making main even bigger
  44 2014-10-17 00:17:56 <sipa> yeah, fair enough
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  47 2014-10-17 00:18:46 <coryfields_> jtimon: as for the core classes (i believe you were asking earlier), i really don't mind how they're arranged/moved at all, as long as new dependencies aren't added
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  49 2014-10-17 00:18:53 <coryfields_> which i'm sure you're not doing anyway
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  52 2014-10-17 00:19:37 <jtimon> #5096
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  55 2014-10-17 00:19:59 <jtimon> no, I won't add more deps, just a couple of moveonly PRs
  56 2014-10-17 00:20:27 <jtimon> that #5096 is specially trivial
  57 2014-10-17 00:20:37 <coryfields_> ok, don't worry about me then. only one that would collide is the commit above, which is no problem to work around
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  80 2014-10-17 00:43:09 <coryfields_> sipa: no clue what the problem was there, works fine now (the circular dep). I must've had some other local conflicting changes.
  81 2014-10-17 00:44:17 <sipa> ok, cool
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 114 2014-10-17 01:58:12 <dcousens> Anyone know who runs webbtc.com?
 115 2014-10-17 01:59:09 <justanotheruser> dcousens: whois says Marius Hanne
 116 2014-10-17 01:59:58 * justanotheruser pings mhanne 
 117 2014-10-17 02:00:04 <dcousens> cheers justanotheruser
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 172 2014-10-17 03:47:06 <Overlord> Cheap Cloud Node Contracts: https://zeushash.com/refer/2z6737
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 174 2014-10-17 03:47:29 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, ^
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 192 2014-10-17 04:11:44 <nullbyte> .wu
 193 2014-10-17 04:12:00 <nullbyte> disregard
 194 2014-10-17 04:12:29 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: thanks
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 231 2014-10-17 05:20:29 <SomeoneWeird> phantomcircuit: you don't have ops?
 232 2014-10-17 05:20:31 * SomeoneWeird shrugs
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 289 2014-10-17 07:01:16 <slorunner> hello, i don't find the github link for bitcoin payment (PHP) anyone here to help?
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 293 2014-10-17 07:04:46 <wumpus> https://github.com/gavinandresen/paymentrequest
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 298 2014-10-17 07:20:27 <todam00n> is there a pre compiled bitcoin-cli for os x somewhere?
 299 2014-10-17 07:21:09 <wumpus> not AFAIK
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 306 2014-10-17 07:31:24 <todam00n> ok
 307 2014-10-17 07:31:37 <Luke-Jr> todam00n: depending on what you need, note Bitcoin Core GUI does have a Debug console that works the same more or less
 308 2014-10-17 07:31:43 <todam00n> also, is there any bitcoin client that can remotely connect to a wallet via RPC?
 309 2014-10-17 07:31:50 <todam00n> I mostly just want to test my RPC connection
 310 2014-10-17 07:32:43 <wumpus> easiest would be to run a basic bitcoin-bitcoinrpc test hten
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 314 2014-10-17 07:33:46 <Luke-Jr> todam00n: unless you have a use for it, it's probably better if you don't enable the RPC connection..
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 318 2014-10-17 07:35:54 <wumpus> ie, http://www.hastebin.com/ukonoqided.py  then call it with python simple_python_bitcoinrpc.py http://bitcoinrpc:password@127.0.0.1:8332/
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 320 2014-10-17 07:41:18 <todam00n> I have to... bitcoind server is on another machine
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 322 2014-10-17 07:49:14 <Luke-Jr> todam00n: bitcoind very intentionally won't accept connections from other machines by default, and, IMO, can never safely do so
 323 2014-10-17 07:52:36 <todam00n> that was not my question
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 335 2014-10-17 08:11:40 <phantomcircuit> SomeoneWeird, this is like the only channel i dont
 336 2014-10-17 08:11:43 <phantomcircuit> shrug
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 343 2014-10-17 08:25:55 <slorunner> hmm, php script doesn't work, and i can't find the problem, modules work right, but index doesnt :/ using: https://github.com/blockchain/receive_payment_php_demo
 344 2014-10-17 08:26:48 <phantomcircuit> slorunner, DO NOT USE BC.I
 345 2014-10-17 08:26:58 <phantomcircuit> YOU *WILL* LOSE BITCOINS
 346 2014-10-17 08:27:05 <phantomcircuit> also you're off topic
 347 2014-10-17 08:27:30 <slorunner> sry then :/ gonna find another
 348 2014-10-17 08:27:43 <phantomcircuit> try ##php
 349 2014-10-17 08:27:47 <phantomcircuit> gl with that though
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 352 2014-10-17 08:28:22 <slorunner> is this one ok? https://github.com/gavinandresen/paymentrequest
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 354 2014-10-17 08:29:08 <phantomcircuit> slorunner, sure
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 356 2014-10-17 08:30:45 <slorunner> gonna set it up later then :)
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 374 2014-10-17 08:54:41 <wumpus> so, headers-first merge today? people have been able to test it for a few days, and I've seen no critical new issues that have surfaced
 375 2014-10-17 08:55:08 <Luke-Jr> ☺
 376 2014-10-17 08:55:17 <sipa> but but but... nobody has acked it
 377 2014-10-17 08:55:36 <wumpus> good point
 378 2014-10-17 08:55:50 <Luke-Jr> we'll probably accidentally a hardfork, but not sure there's anything more we can do to reduce the risk.
 379 2014-10-17 08:55:54 davout has joined
 380 2014-10-17 08:55:56 <wumpus> my browser crashes when I open the issue, so adding my ack will take a while :-)
 381 2014-10-17 08:56:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: huh?
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 383 2014-10-17 08:56:45 <wumpus> why do you think this would cause a hardfork? 
 384 2014-10-17 08:56:48 <justanotheruser> wumpus: you should add that to your browsers issue list
 385 2014-10-17 08:57:00 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: just the sheer complexity. I'm not suggesting delaying a merge.
 386 2014-10-17 08:57:02 <wumpus> it changes download strategy
 387 2014-10-17 08:57:21 <sipa> some validation rules are shuffled too
 388 2014-10-17 08:57:27 <sipa> because they happen in a different order now
 389 2014-10-17 08:57:51 <sipa> though not the tricky ones (as in: script validation, utxo update logic, block connection are all untouched)
 390 2014-10-17 08:58:06 <wumpus> right
 391 2014-10-17 08:58:12 <Luke-Jr> I'd just say we should avoid releasing right before any kind of big event we're all going to - so if something happens, we're able to react quickly
 392 2014-10-17 08:58:37 <sipa> i think it's likelier that there is some bug that allows a peer to make get stuck than anything else
 393 2014-10-17 08:58:50 <sipa> (but then again... that happened spontaneously before anyway)
 394 2014-10-17 08:58:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: stuck on one tree could cause a reorg off it
 395 2014-10-17 08:59:17 <wumpus> it's better than the current code
 396 2014-10-17 08:59:21 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: definitely.
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 399 2014-10-17 09:00:06 <wumpus> anyhow - suggestions to reduce risk are welcome, but I don't think waiting with the merge will help there.. if anything, merging it into master makes sure it gets more testing before the actual release
 400 2014-10-17 09:00:24 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: like I said, probably not much more we can do - might as well merge it
 401 2014-10-17 09:01:59 <Luke-Jr> I mean, unless everyone wants to wait around for a year until every miner is running both 0.8 and 0.9 concurrently to avoid issues - but that's just crazy :p
 402 2014-10-17 09:02:47 benrcole1 has joined
 403 2014-10-17 09:02:49 <Luke-Jr> sometimes, risks are better handled reactively (if at all) than proactively
 404 2014-10-17 09:03:03 <sipa> wumpus: i've heard one complain from someone, but it turned out he was running the bitcoind in his path rather than the headersfirst one
 405 2014-10-17 09:03:10 <sipa> wumpus: oh, and from rebroad
 406 2014-10-17 09:04:59 amdroid has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 407 2014-10-17 09:05:29 <wumpus> rebroad is on a very strange network setup on a very faulty computer, I think he lives in a fuzzer :)
 408 2014-10-17 09:05:34 <gmaxwell> There is risk, but the code already in master is basically known broken. We're not planning on beginning a RC cycle right away... this needs baking time, which means getting every developer onto it.
 409 2014-10-17 09:06:01 <wumpus> anyhow - most problems can be solved after merge
 410 2014-10-17 09:06:35 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 411 2014-10-17 09:07:59 <wumpus> as far as I know rebroad is building on top of headers-first, so anything he's doing can be submitted as a pull afterwards
 412 2014-10-17 09:08:12 <wumpus> and tested/reviewed separately
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 420 2014-10-17 09:19:01 <gmaxwell> I haven't tracked rebroad's latest work ... some of the stuff he was doing was planned already and was just left out because it was too much at once (e.g. dynamic windows),  some of it seems clearly wrong (but no doubt whatever issue is motivating it for him is probably real), and some is probably fine.
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 435 2014-10-17 09:42:05 <spinza> Sipa: there was just that slight "issue where it was disc
 436 2014-10-17 09:42:17 coinheavy has quit ()
 437 2014-10-17 09:42:25 <sipa> oh, right, the disconnection of -addnode's
 438 2014-10-17 09:42:32 <spinza> *disconnecting addnodes from the conf
 439 2014-10-17 09:42:39 <sipa> meh, that can be fixed later; but be sure to file an issue for that after mergre
 440 2014-10-17 09:42:43 <spinza> Sorry mobile typing
 441 2014-10-17 09:43:30 <spinza> Yeah think it's meh also but might surprise some
 442 2014-10-17 09:46:28 Emcy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 443 2014-10-17 09:48:45 <spinza> It's also only an issue until sync is completed
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 457 2014-10-17 10:27:34 <todam00n> what if i downloaded the blockchain with an old version of bitcoin
 458 2014-10-17 10:27:55 <wumpus> no problem, the blockchain is still the same
 459 2014-10-17 10:27:58 <todam00n> is there any way to restructure it to be compatible?
 460 2014-10-17 10:28:00 <todam00n> ok
 461 2014-10-17 10:28:08 <wumpus> nooo no such thing needed
 462 2014-10-17 10:28:09 <todam00n> i thought newer versions were storing the blockchain differently
 463 2014-10-17 10:28:23 <wumpus> the problem is the other way around :)
 464 2014-10-17 10:28:33 <todam00n> ah ok :)
 465 2014-10-17 10:28:44 <wumpus> if you sync using headers-first, then the files will not be in-order, so older versions won't understand
 466 2014-10-17 10:29:04 syst3mw0rm has joined
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 468 2014-10-17 10:30:51 <wumpus> that's not because shuffling the blocks is better, but because they can arrive in different orderings
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 473 2014-10-17 10:38:36 <wumpus> anyhow
 474 2014-10-17 10:38:41 * wumpus 84d13ee - (HEAD, master) Merge pull request #4468 
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 480 2014-10-17 10:43:48 <wumpus> woohoo! headers first is merged, thanks to sipa and everyone else who worked on it or helped testing and reviewing it
 481 2014-10-17 10:49:45 <fanquake> woo
 482 2014-10-17 10:49:57 <fanquake> I think I’ve found a case where the blockfiles aren’t compatible between HF and not HF.
 483 2014-10-17 10:50:28 won9 has joined
 484 2014-10-17 10:50:55 <wumpus> different from the (known) case I mention above?
 485 2014-10-17 10:52:28 <fanquake> heh, it could be that exact case. Master and 0.9.3 wouldn’t read the blockfiles after I’d been running headers first.
 486 2014-10-17 10:52:46 hearn has joined
 487 2014-10-17 10:53:43 <wumpus> ok, yes,that's expected
 488 2014-10-17 10:54:50 <fanquake> ok, no worries.
 489 2014-10-17 10:54:53 <wumpus> also warned about in sipa's post: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/32921390/
 490 2014-10-17 10:55:19 <fanquake> I’m probably not quite keeping up on my reading.
 491 2014-10-17 10:55:51 <wumpus> I'm not sure we could make this any clearer.. maybe add a warning to README.md about *warning, running master will make your block files incompatible with earlier versions*
 492 2014-10-17 10:56:28 sinetek has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 493 2014-10-17 10:58:22 <sipa> wumpus: w00000t!
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 499 2014-10-17 11:08:06 <fanquake> wumpus obviously something like that’ll be in bold at the top of the 0.10.0 release
 500 2014-10-17 11:08:27 <fanquake> otherwise it’ll be the end of the world for anyone who tries to downgrade
 501 2014-10-17 11:09:05 wallet42 has joined
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 503 2014-10-17 11:09:28 <wumpus> well not the end of the world, they can always re-bootstrap, it's not like it changes your wallet.dat into an image of nyan cat
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 506 2014-10-17 11:12:57 <wumpus> (good point to not break wallet backward compatibilty as well, though)
 507 2014-10-17 11:15:44 <fanquake> wumpus yep. slight over exaggeration. Maybe keep the nyan cat for april fools next year.
 508 2014-10-17 11:17:49 xenog has joined
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 511 2014-10-17 11:21:15 <wumpus> something like https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin/commit/62e26d3f62a953cfb619bc6e04c7003c6b69360c  ?
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 515 2014-10-17 11:23:22 <fanquake> Yep
 516 2014-10-17 11:25:38 <paveljanik> wumpus: s/compatiblity/compatibility/
 517 2014-10-17 11:26:40 Rozal has joined
 518 2014-10-17 11:28:27 <Rozal> Can we code something in the Bitcoin to make the prices go higher
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 523 2014-10-17 11:33:41 <sipa> Rozal: no
 524 2014-10-17 11:33:46 <sipa> Rozal: make it more useful
 525 2014-10-17 11:34:44 <Rozal> excuse you, it's rude to speak when not spoken to.
 526 2014-10-17 11:35:33 <Rozal> :)
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 530 2014-10-17 11:40:49 <wumpus> there is no correlation between usefulness and the price IMO, anyhow this belongs in #bitcoin-pricetalk
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 543 2014-10-17 11:55:10 <melvster> hi all there's some rant trending on reddit about the bitcoin-dev mailing list ... the guy's name is melcarvalho which is very similar to the name I post under ( Melvin Carvalho ) ... just wanted to point out that the reddit poster isnt me ... I have great respect for bitcoin devs and process, you guys have helped out out many times ...
 544 2014-10-17 11:56:23 <wumpus> I've seen the rant; I wonder how many of the people ranting have actually followed the mailing list, they make it seem like everyone is swearing and shouting at each other
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 547 2014-10-17 11:58:20 <melvster> yeah would be more productive to actually add patches, test, help ... simple truth is that 80%-90% of people on almost all mail lists lurk
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 551 2014-10-17 12:04:42 <wumpus> it's interesting in a way because most of the shouting and childish mobbing towards bitcoin development comes from reddit in the first place, which acts as a giant hate amplifier... so it's mostly self-criticism... anyhow, I've said my thing there and if there are serious issues with people misbehaving on the mailing list, let me know and we can try to handle it professionally 
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 554 2014-10-17 12:10:40 <gmaxwell> melvster: thanks for that bit of clarification there to clear your name. :)
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 562 2014-10-17 12:31:57 <petertodd> wumpus, melvster: I think you guys are getting trolled: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jhzxq/linus_regrets_how_insults_damaged_the_linux/clbydo7 <- that last comment is mine, and I did not edit it (as can be verified by the github timestamp)
 563 2014-10-17 12:33:31 <petertodd> anyway, I gotta go and catch a plane flight, later
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 565 2014-10-17 12:34:50 <melvster> petertodd: cheers, have a good trip
 566 2014-10-17 12:35:28 <petertodd> melvster: thanks!
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 631 2014-10-17 13:39:18 <jgarzik> hum
 632 2014-10-17 13:39:26 <jgarzik> I'm definitely seeing node drops here too, post-HF-merge
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 647 2014-10-17 13:50:58 <wumpus> maybe this https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/5097 ?
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 650 2014-10-17 13:54:17 <kruug> ugh...the release-process.md file on github is out of date :/
 651 2014-10-17 13:54:38 <wumpus> kruug: how?
 652 2014-10-17 13:54:43 <kruug> Has anyone else built with it?  The intermediate input versions are off so the sha256 can't be checked.
 653 2014-10-17 13:55:08 <wumpus> are you using the release-process.md of the tag you're building?
 654 2014-10-17 13:55:20 <kruug> oh, duh...I didn't check that
 655 2014-10-17 13:55:40 <kruug> there we go, now the versions look right :/
 656 2014-10-17 13:55:50 <wumpus> in master it's could be that the sha256s are not right, but big changes to gitian are coming anyhow
 657 2014-10-17 13:56:18 <wumpus> ok
 658 2014-10-17 13:56:43 <kruug> yeah, I was in master and not 0.9.3
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 660 2014-10-17 13:57:14 <kruug> wumpus: just fyi, 0.9.3 doesn't have sha256 for the osx files
 661 2014-10-17 13:57:34 <wumpus> that's known, they're not really deterministic IIRC, but the end product is
 662 2014-10-17 13:57:53 <kruug> gotcha
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 664 2014-10-17 13:59:57 <wumpus> reminds me that I need to change the gitian.sigs README.md to not refer to master's release process
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 702 2014-10-17 14:59:32 <kruug> is there a place to find sha256/md5's of the outputs of the gitian process?
 703 2014-10-17 15:00:16 <kinlo> https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs ?
 704 2014-10-17 15:00:35 <kinlo> or do you mean on your local gitian install?
 705 2014-10-17 15:00:59 <kruug> kinlo: I just went through the build process and I want to compare my output to the outputs of others.
 706 2014-10-17 15:01:13 <kinlo> kruug: then look at github
 707 2014-10-17 15:01:20 <wumpus> those are in the gitian.sigs repo that kinlo mentions
 708 2014-10-17 15:01:30 <kruug> gotcha.  Thanks
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 712 2014-10-17 15:04:16 <kruug> Hmmm...not exactly what I was looking for.
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 714 2014-10-17 15:05:03 <kruug> I have the bitcoin .exe's, .dmg, and .tar.gz for distribution, and I was looking to verify those.
 715 2014-10-17 15:05:30 <kinlo> those are in the repo, no?
 716 2014-10-17 15:05:57 <wumpus> the hashes in the assert files are sha256 hashes https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.9.3/laanwj/bitcoin-build.assert
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 718 2014-10-17 15:06:30 <kruug> right, but there is no `bitcoin-0.9.3-win64-setup.exe` hash, for example.
 719 2014-10-17 15:06:33 <wumpus> you could also follow the build instructions entirely, it will write an assert file for yourself, then you can use the 'gverify' command to compare
 720 2014-10-17 15:06:40 <kinlo> you gotta use the -win directory
 721 2014-10-17 15:06:48 <kinlo> as the plain dir has hte linux build
 722 2014-10-17 15:06:51 <kinlo> https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.9.3rc2-win/gavinandresen/bitcoin-build.assert
 723 2014-10-17 15:06:53 <wumpus> there should be one
 724 2014-10-17 15:07:05 <kinlo> that's where you for example find the exe's
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 726 2014-10-17 15:07:42 <kruug> oh, gotcha.
 727 2014-10-17 15:07:44 <kinlo> so https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.9.3-win/gavinandresen/bitcoin-build.assert are gavin's sigs for the latest build
 728 2014-10-17 15:07:54 <kinlo> the previous url was for a beta
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 733 2014-10-17 15:11:53 <kruug> does the sha256 sum include filenames?
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 736 2014-10-17 15:12:20 <wumpus> no - it is the sha256sum *of the file*
 737 2014-10-17 15:12:29 <kruug> The build-process told me to rename the Bitcoin-QT.dmg to bitcoin-0.9.3-osx.dmg, but the gitian.sigs asserts all have the Bitcoin-Qt.dmg as a file name
 738 2014-10-17 15:12:54 <wumpus> ok; yes that's how to do the release, doesn't matter for the hash
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 743 2014-10-17 15:14:41 <kruug> interesting...my Win and OSX builds match, but the Linux doesn't
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 750 2014-10-17 15:19:58 <btcdrak> nice work on the headers first PR!
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 809 2014-10-17 16:49:56 <blast> sup gang
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 817 2014-10-17 17:00:54 <wumpus> kruug: and the intermediates match? are you using LXC or KVM?
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 893 2014-10-17 18:36:53 <lechuga_> sipa: nice job! (and every1 else who helped)
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 905 2014-10-17 18:49:45 <coryfields_> sipa: ping
 906 2014-10-17 18:49:50 <sipa> coryfields_: pong
 907 2014-10-17 18:49:54 <coryfields_> sipa: quick POC of what we discussed yesterday: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/6e8d7336ea6505773bcc04a0c47c32f8c3db1f06
 908 2014-10-17 18:50:20 <coryfields_> don't bother reviewing, it was done very hastily. just looking to see if you agree with the concept in general
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 910 2014-10-17 18:51:45 <sipa> coryfields_: agree with concept
 911 2014-10-17 18:51:51 <coryfields_> the actual key functionality moves to a new file that knows nothing of CKey/CPubKey/CPrivKey. buffers are passed in/out, allowing the caller to create the mem backings for privkey operations
 912 2014-10-17 18:52:06 <sipa> i'd call the file eccrypto, and wrap it in a namespace eccrypto or so :)
 913 2014-10-17 18:52:18 <coryfields_> that gets us dangerously close to a key manip lib api
 914 2014-10-17 18:52:58 <coryfields_> rather... signing api. the key part is abstract
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 918 2014-10-17 18:53:52 <sipa> though it would be nice if you could link i nverification functionality, without signing functionality
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 920 2014-10-17 18:54:21 <sipa> as if we would switch to libsecp256k1 for signing, i guess we prefer not to depend on that for just the script validation library
 921 2014-10-17 18:54:23 <coryfields_> sure, they could be split up
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 924 2014-10-17 18:55:22 <coryfields_> once the functionality is moved out of the Key classes, it becomes really easy to split up however we want
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 926 2014-10-17 18:57:24 <coryfields_> ok, i'll do a cleaned up version. I can justify spending some time on it since this is (imo) a better alternative to the other code movement necessary for boost removal for libbitcoinconsensus
 927 2014-10-17 18:58:06 <coryfields_> ack on the namespace, i was surprised that it worked without clashing
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 975 2014-10-17 20:06:15 <coryfields_> sipa: looks like with openssl at least, there's not much hope for getting it to use pre-allocated mem for all priv key operations
 976 2014-10-17 20:06:46 <gmaxwell> hm? thought they were all on the stack.
 977 2014-10-17 20:07:21 <sipa> in openssl? not at all
 978 2014-10-17 20:08:35 <sipa> you can use preallocated memory for BN's, i think, but all operations internally done on them would likely copy them to heap space anyway
 979 2014-10-17 20:08:38 <coryfields_> i suppose i'll loosen the initial implementation to: you pass us your allocated privkey, but assume that it will be copied around
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 981 2014-10-17 20:09:18 <sipa> libsecp256k1 won't copy it
 982 2014-10-17 20:09:32 <coryfields_> ok, great
 983 2014-10-17 20:09:45 <sipa> wait, it will, but only on the stack
 984 2014-10-17 20:10:08 <sipa> which is extremely unlikely to end up in swap as it's constantly changing
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 986 2014-10-17 20:10:38 <sipa> so yeah - do what you can to secure it, but we can't guarantee it won't be temporarily copied (though if it is, it will be wiped after use)
 987 2014-10-17 20:10:42 <coryfields_> well, i don't think it's a huge concern for now, only trying to keep the possibility open for the fugure
 988 2014-10-17 20:10:52 <coryfields_> sounds good, will do
 989 2014-10-17 20:10:58 <Luke-Jr> in theory, couldn't even registers end up in swap?
 990 2014-10-17 20:11:00 <coryfields_> *future
 991 2014-10-17 20:11:27 <sipa> coryfields_: if the compiler emits code to swap them to ram, sure
 992 2014-10-17 20:11:33 <sipa> eh, lechuga_
 993 2014-10-17 20:11:36 <sipa> eh, Luke-Jr
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 995 2014-10-17 20:12:41 <hearn> sipa: eh? it can get swapped out when the app is idle
 996 2014-10-17 20:12:58 <hearn> (the stack)
 997 2014-10-17 20:13:19 * hearn gave up on the idea of keeping priv keys in "safe memory" after reading an article about all the different ways stuff can leak
 998 2014-10-17 20:13:24 <sipa> hmm, ok
 999 2014-10-17 20:14:38 <hearn> of course now i can't find the article again. gah.
1000 2014-10-17 20:15:17 <hearn> ah yes
1001 2014-10-17 20:15:17 <hearn> http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2014-09-06-zeroing-buffers-is-insufficient.html
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1003 2014-10-17 20:15:28 <sipa> signing takes in the order of 30us, so there is actually quite some chance of being interrupted during that time
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1005 2014-10-17 20:15:58 <gmaxwell> hearn: dunno if they fixed it since but the first version of that article was too optimistic. :)
1006 2014-10-17 20:16:01 <hearn> tl;dr - even if you try and do the right thing, the compiler will screw you over. it's free to make copies of your data anywhere it likes, at any time, even when working in C
1007 2014-10-17 20:16:16 <hearn> and then it's easy to forget things like AES registers too
1008 2014-10-17 20:16:34 <earlz> I'm surprised there aren't bitcoin compatible dongles yet... like where you plugin the USB device and some special bitcoin wallet talks to the dongle for all key signing and such
1009 2014-10-17 20:16:43 <sipa> earlz: you mean the trezor?
1010 2014-10-17 20:16:50 <earlz> not heard of it
1011 2014-10-17 20:17:04 <sipa> wow, ok :)
1012 2014-10-17 20:17:26 <hearn> there have been several
1013 2014-10-17 20:17:30 <hearn> trezor is the best by far, and what i use
1014 2014-10-17 20:17:50 <earlz> dat price though
1015 2014-10-17 20:17:52 <sipa> i actually have a smartcard sized usb signing device that supports multisig :)
1016 2014-10-17 20:17:58 <earlz> I was imaginging somethign that'd fit on an AVR lol
1017 2014-10-17 20:18:13 <sipa> the hard part is how do you communicate with the user
1018 2014-10-17 20:18:26 * earlz is one of the stupid people who trust coinbase with everything ;) 
1019 2014-10-17 20:18:35 <sipa> as you need to show something so that the user knows they are signing the right thing
1020 2014-10-17 20:18:43 <earlz> good point
1021 2014-10-17 20:18:47 <hearn> well, that's no more stupid than the other few billion people who use banks. however, it's not what i'd recommend :)
1022 2014-10-17 20:18:49 <sipa> as your software could be malicious and ask to sign something other than what it clames
1023 2014-10-17 20:19:01 <earlz> at least coinbase's vault thing is insured to some extent
1024 2014-10-17 20:19:21 <hearn> yes, but so are banks. so why not use a real one? no offence to coinbase, but a bank they are not
1025 2014-10-17 20:19:42 <earlz> I don't hold enough bitcoin to actually worry either though..
1026 2014-10-17 20:19:44 <BlueMatt> hearn: banks are insured (in the us) by the group that can print money to cover it, coinbase...not so much
1027 2014-10-17 20:19:52 <earlz> Most I've ever held at any time was $600 worth
1028 2014-10-17 20:20:03 <hearn> indeed
1029 2014-10-17 20:20:12 <hearn> earlz: yeah if you only ever had $600 max then a trezor is massive overkill
1030 2014-10-17 20:20:29 <BlueMatt> spend 100$ to cover your $600 investment!
1031 2014-10-17 20:20:30 <hearn> earlz: for you, there are/will be services that do two factor authentication. bitgo is an example of that, not sure if they're doing a consumer focused wallet
1032 2014-10-17 20:20:41 <hearn> chris pacia/alon muroch are working on a decentralised, spv 2-factor authd wallet
1033 2014-10-17 20:20:54 <hearn> you use an android app in conjunction with a desktop app to authorise. that's pretty good, and cheap, if you have an android phone already
1034 2014-10-17 20:21:13 <BlueMatt> note: the hardwarewallet.com one is 25$ for two
1035 2014-10-17 20:21:26 <BlueMatt> and appears to be quite competent, at least from third-party accounts
1036 2014-10-17 20:21:27 <earlz> Eh, I worry about keeping the keys safe... like not from theives but from if my house burns down
1037 2014-10-17 20:21:27 <coryfields_> BlueMatt: no different than buying a ridiculous $1000 purse and putting $10 worth of stuff in it :)
1038 2014-10-17 20:21:45 <BlueMatt> earlz: buy a bank vault!
1039 2014-10-17 20:21:46 <BlueMatt> those are cheap
1040 2014-10-17 20:21:52 <earlz> yea true
1041 2014-10-17 20:21:53 <BlueMatt> coryfields_: but...but...fasion statement!
1042 2014-10-17 20:21:57 <hearn> cheap?
1043 2014-10-17 20:21:59 <hearn> maybe in the usa :)
1044 2014-10-17 20:22:08 * hearn rents a box in a bank vault
1045 2014-10-17 20:22:17 <therp> hearn: 100 CHF per year, IIRC
1046 2014-10-17 20:22:19 <earlz> A safety deposit box I assume is what you mean?
1047 2014-10-17 20:22:25 <hearn> but yes  - key escrow tied to your identity is a service we definitely need. of course, then perhaps it's not so different to just using coinbase.
1048 2014-10-17 20:22:29 <hearn> earlz: right
1049 2014-10-17 20:22:53 <chmod755> therp, sounds about right
1050 2014-10-17 20:23:08 <earlz> I personally want to see an anti-fraud multisig service. You use some special *EASY TO USE* mutlisig-only wallet
1051 2014-10-17 20:23:15 <hearn> therp: yeah, that sounds right
1052 2014-10-17 20:23:20 <hearn> earlz: yes that's what bitgo and friends are.
1053 2014-10-17 20:23:35 <hearn> i think greenaddress, too
1054 2014-10-17 20:23:45 <earlz> When you want to send funds out, the anti-fraud service has to ok your transaction.. sending a huge amount or if something looks suspicious, you have to do further authorizatins
1055 2014-10-17 20:23:57 <earlz> are they easy to use though?
1056 2014-10-17 20:24:07 <hearn> they look not too bad, but i never used them myself.
1057 2014-10-17 20:24:08 <earlz> I not looked for competent multisig stuff in a while
1058 2014-10-17 20:24:27 <hearn> the hard part of building such a service is knowing what fraud looks like. bitcoin is a "signal poor" environment
1059 2014-10-17 20:24:34 <earlz> can you combine multisig with HD seeds?
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1061 2014-10-17 20:24:56 <hearn> well, plus, so far everyone who wanted to make such a fraud beating service has had to roll their own wallet from scratch. but now bcj 0.12 has multisig wallets support i hope it'll become a lot easier.
1062 2014-10-17 20:25:00 <hearn> earlz: yes of course
1063 2014-10-17 20:26:14 <hearn> earlz: the startups i know of in the bitcoin anti fraud space are focusing on b2b stuff at the moment, though
1064 2014-10-17 20:26:18 <earlz> I think the most difficult bit about mutlisig is notifying the 2nd keyholder that a transaction needs signed, since it has to be outsid eof the standard p2p network and all
1065 2014-10-17 20:26:19 <hearn> i guess they feel there's not much consumer demand
1066 2014-10-17 20:26:34 <hearn> that's easy. you just have a protocol between wallet app and server.
1067 2014-10-17 20:26:42 <earlz> yea, isn't there a BIP for that?
1068 2014-10-17 20:27:05 <hearn> no there isn't. it's a bit early for a BIP. it's no big deal for protocols here to diverge for a while, people need to experiment and learn what works before standardisation makes sense
1069 2014-10-17 20:27:24 <hearn> like i said, the hard parts are (a) building your own wallet, hopefully now mostly solved at least once bcj 0.12 wallets start launching (real soon now),   and (b) knowing what rules to use
1070 2014-10-17 20:27:30 <earlz> at least multisig transactions are ok to send in cleartext so that's not a concern
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1072 2014-10-17 20:27:46 <hearn> it's easy to handwave from an armchair saying "velocity limits!" but it's hard to implement in a way that doesn't end up being trivially beaten, or have too many FPs to be useful
1073 2014-10-17 20:28:27 <hearn> think about how often americans complain about their credit card stopping working when they travel
1074 2014-10-17 20:28:34 <hearn> and that's WITH enormous amounts of data
1075 2014-10-17 20:29:10 <earlz> Well, idealy, you'd have an out of band way to easily approve and fix things like that
1076 2014-10-17 20:29:32 <hearn> yes, a second factor. but then you may as well just do that without any third party service and 2fa every transaction :) that's chris/alon's approach
1077 2014-10-17 20:29:35 <earlz> like when the fraud service detects something it'd ask you by email and SMS or whatever for approval
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1079 2014-10-17 20:29:51 <earlz> I wouldn't mind that
1080 2014-10-17 20:30:10 <hearn> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2etbsx/bitcoin_authenticator_decentralized_2fa_and_next/
1081 2014-10-17 20:30:12 <earlz> recurring transactions are big use case that's not easy right now without a 3rd party holding yoru money
1082 2014-10-17 20:30:24 <hearn> yeah, there was a  proposed BIP for that a while ago but it was never implemented afaik
1083 2014-10-17 20:31:06 <earlz> Unless you do the unrecommended thing of keeping all yoru funds in a single address, I don't see any easy way to do it without a special wallet constantly running on yoru computer
1084 2014-10-17 20:31:25 <hearn> yes you do it the latter (or on your phone, which is easier)
1085 2014-10-17 20:31:43 <hearn> you can create time locked funds, potentially, but then you need all the money up front
1086 2014-10-17 20:31:49 <earlz> I want it to happen automatically though
1087 2014-10-17 20:31:52 <earlz> yea, that's the problem
1088 2014-10-17 20:31:53 <NewLiberty> or be prompted
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1092 2014-10-17 20:32:17 <hearn> earlz: is it such a big deal to have your phone do it in the background, for you? it can be fully automatic so you don't get asked
1093 2014-10-17 20:32:32 <earlz> I mean, if it's the same people asking for money each month, same amount and same company, I don't wan tto approve it. I trust that it's not in error
1094 2014-10-17 20:32:35 <hearn> most people have their phones on most of the time. if you trust your phone enough to have access to sufficient funds, it can be alright
1095 2014-10-17 20:32:46 <hearn> yes that is quite straightforward to implement with bip70
1096 2014-10-17 20:33:03 <earlz> Also, easy rejection though as well by either party
1097 2014-10-17 20:33:03 <hearn> bip70+extension
1098 2014-10-17 20:33:23 <earlz> If the business is hacked, they should be able to easily invalidate everyone who would normally send them funds
1099 2014-10-17 20:34:07 <ThomasV> hearn: is bitcoin authenticator open sourced?
1100 2014-10-17 20:34:17 <hearn> the way the proposed mechanism worked, when you set up the "direct debit" you could impose a max limit and recurrences
1101 2014-10-17 20:34:22 <hearn> so there was some safety there.
1102 2014-10-17 20:34:33 <hearn> ThomasV: https://github.com/negedzuregal/BitcoinAuthWallet  + https://github.com/cpacia/BitcoinAuthenticator
1103 2014-10-17 20:34:39 <hearn> first is the desktop app. second is the android app.
1104 2014-10-17 20:34:47 <ThomasV> oh nice
1105 2014-10-17 20:35:09 <hearn> yeah it's pretty cool. quite heavy into crypto geek territory though. it's got the tor support and shamir's secret sharing, etc
1106 2014-10-17 20:35:21 <hearn> more for power users than mainstream consumer, i think, but their progress is pretty neat
1107 2014-10-17 20:35:26 <hearn> i like that they teamed up :)
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1110 2014-10-17 20:37:58 <earlz> I really need to learn more about how HD seeds work
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1115 2014-10-17 20:49:26 <ThomasV> hearn: btw, did you implement bip44 in bitcoinj? (with the wallet birth date)
1116 2014-10-17 20:50:17 <hearn> no. just the regular bip32 hierarchy. using bip44 by default would have imposed too many constraints on the API and wallet designers, and having a choice of hierarchies to select from didn't make it for 0.12
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1118 2014-10-17 20:50:52 <ThomasV> right.. but my question was more about the scanning for wallet addresses
1119 2014-10-17 20:51:25 <hearn> if you restore from seed+birthday then it'll find the rest of the addresses yes, using a gap limit of 100 by default + 1/3rd to keep bloom filter refreshes down
1120 2014-10-17 20:51:29 <hearn> so 133 key lookahead
1121 2014-10-17 20:51:56 <ThomasV> ok
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1123 2014-10-17 20:52:47 <hearn> why?
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1126 2014-10-17 20:53:44 <ThomasV> because I just read gavin's post about utxo commitments, and the prospect of nodes not having old full blocks
1127 2014-10-17 20:55:05 <gmaxwell> really birth dates aren't enough, we should be keeping good until dates where possible as well.
1128 2014-10-17 20:55:23 <hearn> yes. at the moment the p2p protocol has no pruning support though, so all peers spv clients can find can serve the whole chain
1129 2014-10-17 20:56:32 <sipa> minimal pruning support (with nodes just stopping to announce themselves as full nodes) will likely be in 0.10
1130 2014-10-17 20:57:04 <hearn> right, i know, but those peers don't exist from an spv clients perspective.
1131 2014-10-17 20:57:10 <sipa> indeed
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1133 2014-10-17 20:59:53 <ThomasV> sipa: will that be default?
1134 2014-10-17 21:00:02 <sipa> ThomasV: hell no
1135 2014-10-17 21:00:17 <sipa> it will also disable wallet support, so i doubt many people will run it
1136 2014-10-17 21:00:24 <sipa> except low-disk relay-only nodes
1137 2014-10-17 21:00:36 <hearn> why does it disable wallet support?
1138 2014-10-17 21:00:43 <gmaxwell> it's a second step to the full support.
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1140 2014-10-17 21:01:08 <gmaxwell> hearn: because it currently breaks a bunch of wallet rpcs and breaks rescanning.
1141 2014-10-17 21:01:09 <sipa> hearn: just because nobody really thought hard about the wallet implications of it, i guess
1142 2014-10-17 21:01:10 <earlz> Is there an estimate of how much diskspace will be required after the "minimal pruning" bit?
1143 2014-10-17 21:01:14 <hearn> ah ok
1144 2014-10-17 21:01:19 <sipa> earlz: 1 GB or so
1145 2014-10-17 21:01:24 <earlz> wow
1146 2014-10-17 21:01:33 <earlz> that's runnable on my VPS heh
1147 2014-10-17 21:01:56 <gmaxwell> hearn: trying to complete the whole thing in one step would just delay it further. This much made a reasonable atomic unit.
1148 2014-10-17 21:02:28 <hearn> sure, not against that, was just wondering if there was a specific issue with the wallet that needed the full chain. yes, if rescanning breaks, that's an issue.
1149 2014-10-17 21:03:00 <sipa> right; just a bunch of edge cases to consider
1150 2014-10-17 21:03:08 <sipa> and few people willing to work on the wallet code...
1151 2014-10-17 21:03:43 <gmaxwell> plus it has a side effect of discouraging rapid deployment before we've handled some of the network cases. (e.g. still being able to sync from the blocks that the node does have)
1152 2014-10-17 21:03:58 <gmaxwell> which is just a happy alignment.
1153 2014-10-17 21:04:02 <earlz> Is there a list somewhere of alternative fully validating node libraries?
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1158 2014-10-17 21:09:37 <earlz> ?
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1161 2014-10-17 21:09:56 <hearn> not that i know of. there might be one on the wiki
1162 2014-10-17 21:09:59 <earlz> I know there is a ruby implementation that's a full node.. not of anything else though
1163 2014-10-17 21:10:57 <hearn> bitcoinj has sort of part of one, btcd is one, there are refactorings of bitcoin core.
1164 2014-10-17 21:11:51 <hearn> there was another java one a while back that sank into obscurity because the guy basically didn't announce it or market it, but the code looked remarkably clean
1165 2014-10-17 21:12:01 <lechuga_> which was that?
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1167 2014-10-17 21:12:19 <hearn> done by some retired IBM guy to keep his mind nimble, he said.
1168 2014-10-17 21:12:19 <hearn> i can't remember the name unfortunately
1169 2014-10-17 21:12:20 <earlz> what do you mean "sort of part of one"? lol
1170 2014-10-17 21:12:49 <hearn> earlz: it does full validation and can calculate an address-indexed utxo set if you want, but it doesn't accept connections from other clients
1171 2014-10-17 21:14:30 <hearn> oh yes
1172 2014-10-17 21:14:32 <hearn> bits of proof too
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1177 2014-10-17 21:15:44 <lechuga_> earlz: what's your use case?
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1181 2014-10-17 21:17:25 <earlz> just curiosity as to how things could be better
1182 2014-10-17 21:17:40 <ThomasV> I believe bits of proof is closed source
1183 2014-10-17 21:17:45 <earlz> Are HD wallets considered as safe as traditional wallets?
1184 2014-10-17 21:18:02 <lechuga_> it depends on how u use them
1185 2014-10-17 21:18:07 <sipa> earlz: we're currently working on a dynamic library built from the bitcoin core source code, so others don't need to reimplement (all of) the consensus rules
1186 2014-10-17 21:18:30 <sipa> earlz: as it has shown to be incredibly tricky to replicate the behavior bug-for-bug (and not doing so would be a forking risk)
1187 2014-10-17 21:19:11 <sipa> i would be very surprised if any codebase perfectly matches bitcoin core in validation behavior
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1189 2014-10-17 21:20:06 <earlz> I'm reading bip32 trying to understand this ugh
1190 2014-10-17 21:20:25 <Luke-Jr> I think if you use only hardened derivation, HD wallets are at least as secure
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1192 2014-10-17 21:20:42 <lechuga_> earlz: i'd also recommend http://bitcoinmagazine.com/8396/deterministic-wallets-advantages-flaw/
1193 2014-10-17 21:20:47 <Luke-Jr> I guess except for the ability to access future bitcoins if you're compromised
1194 2014-10-17 21:20:49 <sipa> HD with only hardened derivation is just deterministic wallets
1195 2014-10-17 21:21:00 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
1196 2014-10-17 21:21:14 <Luke-Jr> you lose the hierarchy?
1197 2014-10-17 21:21:29 <sipa> right, sure
1198 2014-10-17 21:21:56 <sipa> i mean, technically the behavior of a hardened HD wallet chain is very easy to replicate using just a deterministic wallet
1199 2014-10-17 21:22:06 <sipa> just reuse your derivation construction on generated private keys
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1201 2014-10-17 21:22:51 <earlz> so, are any random string of bytes a suitable private key, or am I wrong?
1202 2014-10-17 21:23:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I don't understand why you need to lose hierarchy
1203 2014-10-17 21:23:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you don't
1204 2014-10-17 21:23:16 <Luke-Jr> oh ok
1205 2014-10-17 21:23:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but you can easily add the hierarchy again if you already have a determinstic derivation
1206 2014-10-17 21:23:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I was thinking a hardened-only HD wallet would be ideal, so your wallet can keep private keys just for spending a limited amount of funds, and if it gets control of too much, it deletes some
1207 2014-10-17 21:24:07 <sipa> that means you also lose the fun part :)
1208 2014-10-17 21:24:14 <Luke-Jr> maybe, but it's a nice use case
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1223 2014-10-17 21:47:42 <coryfields_> sipa: for sign/signcompact, i should think client libs/apps be expecting to pass in der privkeys?
1224 2014-10-17 21:47:51 <coryfields_> *would be
1225 2014-10-17 21:47:57 <sipa> eww no
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1227 2014-10-17 21:48:10 <sipa> der privkeys is just an artefact of using openssl before
1228 2014-10-17 21:48:18 <sipa> they're annoyingly large and hard to parse
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1240 2014-10-17 22:03:04 <coryfields_> mm ok
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1289 2014-10-17 23:12:56 <kgk> I have always wondered this. In the protocol spec, why is a tx output's value an int64 and not a uint64?
1290 2014-10-17 23:13:35 <Luke-Jr> kgk: the two are equivalent in this case
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1292 2014-10-17 23:13:48 <Luke-Jr> it should be safe to treat it as a uint64
1293 2014-10-17 23:13:54 <kgk> could the value be nagative?
1294 2014-10-17 23:13:57 <kgk> ah ic
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1296 2014-10-17 23:14:06 <kgk> so it's really treated as uint64
1297 2014-10-17 23:14:26 <kgk> thx :)
1298 2014-10-17 23:14:32 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't matter what it's treated as
1299 2014-10-17 23:14:38 <Luke-Jr> the high bit is never set
1300 2014-10-17 23:14:52 <kgk> ohhhh duh
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1325 2014-10-17 23:49:44 <coryfields_> jtimon: ping
1326 2014-10-17 23:50:18 <jtimon> pong
1327 2014-10-17 23:51:18 <coryfields_> jtimon: i've decided to go a different route wrt shuffling stuff around for boost. Am I going to get in your way by reworking key.h/key.cpp significantly ?
1328 2014-10-17 23:51:48 <jtimon> nope, I'm not touching key.o
1329 2014-10-17 23:52:23 <coryfields_> ok, great
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