1 2014-10-21 00:00:09 <coryfields_> jtimon: once we have an actual 'core' that everything depends on, it should work as you'd like
2 2014-10-21 00:00:54 <jtimon> if I don't do that, it starts compiling main and otherthings in server before failing in whatever I'm youching in core
3 2014-10-21 00:01:07 <jtimon> -j2 is for using my two little cores
4 2014-10-21 00:01:58 <jtimon> but I get "once we have an actual 'core' that everything depends on" as "it's a work in progress"
5 2014-10-21 00:02:30 <jtimon> so thanks
6 2014-10-21 00:02:41 <sipa> coryfields_: his problem is that if A depends on B, and you update B, you preferably see B compile first
7 2014-10-21 00:03:01 <sipa> even if both A and B need to be recompiled because of that
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9 2014-10-21 00:03:15 <sipa> i don't think make does anything smart like that
10 2014-10-21 00:03:27 <coryfields_> sure, i understand. i'm just saying that it's working as-intended. we can change "as-intended", i'm just not sure there's much need since it's about to solve itself
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12 2014-10-21 00:03:46 <sipa> i don't think it's going to solve itself?
13 2014-10-21 00:04:19 <coryfields_> sipa: i intend to make a convenience lib out of core/ once we get stuff moved into there
14 2014-10-21 00:04:31 <sipa> ah
15 2014-10-21 00:04:32 <coryfields_> then everything will depend on that
16 2014-10-21 00:04:52 <sipa> while i like the approach of nice separately layered libraries, i don't know how maintainable that is
17 2014-10-21 00:05:10 <coryfields_> problem at is that 'make' doesn't know that you're trying to build A or B, it only knows that C is the end-goal
18 2014-10-21 00:05:29 <sipa> it could be smart and build the things at the bottom of the dependency tree first
19 2014-10-21 00:05:34 <sipa> ah, no
20 2014-10-21 00:05:37 <coryfields_> sipa: it's a necessary step to make sure that outside includes don't link in
21 2014-10-21 00:05:39 <sipa> it doesn't know that
22 2014-10-21 00:06:03 <coryfields_> heh, i'm explaining poorly as always :)
23 2014-10-21 00:06:12 <sipa> no, i understand what you mean
24 2014-10-21 00:06:32 <coryfields_> atm, when you 'make', the end-goals are bitcoind/bitcoin-qt, etc. the .a's are convenience libs that are built along the way
25 2014-10-21 00:06:49 <sipa> but for example in the script library, we'll end up using only part of the core library
26 2014-10-21 00:06:50 <coryfields_> so one is no more 'necessary' than the other, because the end-goal requires both
27 2014-10-21 00:06:54 <sipa> what will we do? split core up?
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29 2014-10-21 00:07:46 <coryfields_> it'll just depend on all of core. i don't see that as a problem, do you?
30 2014-10-21 00:08:04 <coryfields_> (the result is arch/compiler/linker specific, if you're discussing the end-library-object)
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32 2014-10-21 00:08:28 <sipa> it's a small example, and it may not be relevant enough here
33 2014-10-21 00:08:49 <sipa> but it's what i mean by cross-cutting: you have a separate in terms of knowledge domain, and in terms of layering on top of it
34 2014-10-21 00:08:50 <coryfields_> for ex in that case, almost all linkers would exclude the irrelevan't .o's as if they weren't there
35 2014-10-21 00:09:07 <coryfields_> sure. i don't think there's any way to avoid that, it'll happen one way or the other
36 2014-10-21 00:09:15 <sipa> that's interesting, but it would be nice to also have that guarantee reflected in your structure
37 2014-10-21 00:09:21 <coryfields_> the alternative is to avoid building convenience libs, and rebuild the objects each time
38 2014-10-21 00:09:36 <sipa> i don't understand that
39 2014-10-21 00:10:02 <coryfields_> which is also an option, i just don't believe it to be the "most correct". but i could be easily swayed if there was a need
40 2014-10-21 00:10:14 <sipa> why isn't it possible to build the different components of core (once each), and have whatever uses it link it whichever of those are needed?
41 2014-10-21 00:10:21 <coryfields_> a convenience lib lets you build a set of sources with a specific set of flags
42 2014-10-21 00:10:36 <coryfields_> for ex, scripting will explicitly be missing boost includes, to ensure that it builds without it
43 2014-10-21 00:10:43 <coryfields_> *script verification
44 2014-10-21 00:10:46 <sipa> that is interesting yes
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46 2014-10-21 00:11:07 <coryfields_> say there's another component that's explicitly missing another dep (say openssl) for similar reasons
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49 2014-10-21 00:11:26 <coryfields_> if there's a convenience library for each, then it wraps up nicely and you're all done
50 2014-10-21 00:11:31 <sipa> but is there no way to have one without the other?
51 2014-10-21 00:11:39 <coryfields_> but if they overlap, you may need to build them once with one set, and once with another
52 2014-10-21 00:11:49 <sipa> have the building with separate flags, but not turn them into actual libs?
53 2014-10-21 00:12:09 <coryfields_> ah crap, i've gtg again. sorry, crazy day
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81 2014-10-21 01:01:49 <berndj> michagogo: ./config.status --version will tell you how you configured (but i ^R through history to find things like that too)
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89 2014-10-21 01:10:02 <berndj> jtimon, C++ code tends to have more "code" in header files that's more error-prone than just a bunch of #defines and types like in idiomatic C code, is that the sort of breakage you're talking about?
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91 2014-10-21 01:12:28 <berndj> because make -j starting to build both streams of code is exactly what -j is supposed to do, even if you end up with multiple streams ending in error
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95 2014-10-21 01:17:11 <phantomcircuit> berndj, tends to but doesn't have to
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97 2014-10-21 01:18:00 <berndj> i'm looking at src/script.h and seeing a looot of codey stuff :)
98 2014-10-21 01:18:01 <jtimon> I would like to have a generic libscript that doesn't depend on core in the future (say to sign alerts or other things, I would like to see script-based signatures replace regular signatures in the future) but this is probably too far fetched
99 2014-10-21 01:18:25 <phantomcircuit> berndj, it would be easy but potentially dangerous to move that all to script.cpp
100 2014-10-21 01:18:45 <jtimon> my question is, why does it consistently build server before common? it's not dependency and it's not alphabetic order
101 2014-10-21 01:18:55 <berndj> phantomcircuit, C++ definitely encourages more codey content in headers than C does. inline methods and whatnot
102 2014-10-21 01:19:05 <phantomcircuit> sure
103 2014-10-21 01:19:20 <jtimon> can't lib_server just depend on lib_common in the makefile?
104 2014-10-21 01:19:23 <berndj> jtimon, only with -j2 though? or even without (implicit -j1)?
105 2014-10-21 01:20:10 <jeremyrubin> During fork resolution, what is the full set of rules used to select block a or b
106 2014-10-21 01:20:23 <berndj> jtimon, that won't solve your problem; expressing that libbitcoin_server.a depends on libbitcoin_common.a doesn't imply that the objects *inside* the one depend on the other lib
107 2014-10-21 01:20:32 <jeremyrubin> (/ are there any links)
108 2014-10-21 01:20:36 <berndj> and i think expressing such dependencies would be Wrong (tm)
109 2014-10-21 01:20:37 <sipa> berndj: that's not his problems
110 2014-10-21 01:20:52 <sipa> berndj: he just wants to improve the order in which things are built
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112 2014-10-21 01:21:02 <jtimon> -j2 doesn't have anything to do with this, it actually starts compiling the different objects in server in parallel
113 2014-10-21 01:21:14 <jeremyrubin> Thinking of a couple solutions to the "majoirty is not enough:" paper
114 2014-10-21 01:21:16 <sipa> so that the changed part gets built first, as it's more likely to be the part that fails
115 2014-10-21 01:21:45 <jtimon> I don't like having too many things in the headers either, but that will take time to fix
116 2014-10-21 01:22:36 <jtimon> ok, can't all objects in server depend on lib_common.a then?
117 2014-10-21 01:22:52 <berndj> sipa, anything that's out of date is "likely to fail" - it's never been compiled (according to timestamps); that one file has been touched more recently doesn't make it more fragile than another that hasn't been compiled
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119 2014-10-21 01:24:18 <berndj> jtimon, you can do that, but that's expressing a false situation: the *objects* don't depend on the *library*; they depend on specific files that the library also depends on, and these dependencies are already pulled into the makefile via GCC's dependency discovery
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122 2014-10-21 01:25:46 <jtimon> then I don't understand why these dependencies discovered by gcc aren't taken into account, why main is built before core
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126 2014-10-21 01:27:12 <berndj> i have a feeling we're talking past each other. if you have a log that illustrates the problem, can i see it?
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135 2014-10-21 01:43:04 <jtimon> berndj just make
136 2014-10-21 01:43:39 <jtimon> I'm currently comiling with "make libbitcoin_common.a check -j2" and I'm not going to clean because you do't believe me
137 2014-10-21 01:44:09 <berndj> it isn't that i don't believe you, it's that i'm not sure i understand what (mis)behaviour you mean
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139 2014-10-21 01:45:12 <jtimon> https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/38554554
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141 2014-10-21 01:46:10 <jtimon> CXX libbitcoin_server_a-main.o is before CXX libbitcoin_common_a-chainparams.o
142 2014-10-21 01:47:09 <jtimon> it's not really misbehabiour but it would make more sense to me the other way around (given that things in libbitcoin_server_a-main.o depend on things in libbitcoin_common_a) but not the other way around
143 2014-10-21 01:48:10 <berndj> do you have a line number there for me?
144 2014-10-21 01:49:06 <jtimon> at 586 it starts compiling objects
145 2014-10-21 01:49:20 <berndj> ok got it
146 2014-10-21 01:50:10 <jtimon> IMO it should be util, common, server, wallet, but it does server, common, util, wallet
147 2014-10-21 01:50:56 <jtimon> and it's clearly not alphabetic order so I would like to know what order this is
148 2014-10-21 01:51:45 <berndj> some random topological sort order :-/ make is just finding nodes in the dependency graph that depend only on up-to-date targets and then making those
149 2014-10-21 01:52:20 <jtimon> I suspect is the noinst_LIBRARIES (makefile.am:39)
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152 2014-10-21 01:53:33 <berndj> now you could add a fake dependency on libbitcoin_common.a to all the *.o files, but that will soft-break other people's massively parallel builds (they won't get full parallelism)
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156 2014-10-21 02:02:35 <coryfields_> berndj: making one build depend on another would make one set build before another
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158 2014-10-21 02:03:16 <coryfields_> "a: b" would do what jtimon wants. In make-speak, that means all a's depend on a finished b
159 2014-10-21 02:04:13 <berndj> coryfields_: making libfoo.a depend on libbar.a won't guarantee that bar.cc gets compiled before foo.cc, only that foo.o won't get linked into libfoo.a before bar.o gets linked into libbar.a
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161 2014-10-21 02:05:21 <jtimon> coryfields_ wouldn't changing the order on makefile.am make it too? I mean there has to be a reason why server is ALWAYS built before common
162 2014-10-21 02:05:52 <berndj> jtimon, in the -j1 case, that's probably true
163 2014-10-21 02:05:56 <coryfields_> berndj: sorry, that's incorrect. "foo.a: bar.a" means "i can't start foo.a until bar.a exists." that means that it doesn't descend into foo.a's objects until that point.
164 2014-10-21 02:06:00 <coryfields_> try it and see.
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166 2014-10-21 02:06:25 <coryfields_> that's how the dependency-tree is built.
167 2014-10-21 02:06:51 <coryfields_> jtimon: more likely because bitcoind or bitcoin-qt or _something_ depends on "server.a common.a" in that order
168 2014-10-21 02:09:08 <coryfields_> jtimon: Makefile.am:262
169 2014-10-21 02:09:22 <coryfields_> reverse those, it'll likely change to the outcome you're expecting
170 2014-10-21 02:10:18 <coryfields_> but that may cause a link error. binutils insists on a link order because it only traverses once when building the map
171 2014-10-21 02:12:00 <berndj> coryfields_: i get "making a.o" first with http://pastebin.com/XPB9quB1 as a makefile
172 2014-10-21 02:12:47 <berndj> "making a.o" comes later if i add "a.o: libb" though
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178 2014-10-21 02:23:06 <coryfields_> berndj: we're speaking of automake/libtool convenience libs here, not generic make targets
179 2014-10-21 02:23:38 <berndj> meh, i'm clearly just adding noise at this point
180 2014-10-21 02:25:44 <coryfields_> berndj: but it looks like in the case of an automake convenience lib, you're correct. in the case of libtool, one will depend on the other
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183 2014-10-21 02:26:50 <berndj> coryfields_, i'm saying that simply adding "libbitcoin_server.{a,la}: libbitcoin_common.{a,la}" won't be enough to prevent the objects in _server from being built before those in _common
184 2014-10-21 02:27:29 <berndj> you'd have to make the *objects* (not the *library*) of the one lib depend on the other lib
185 2014-10-21 02:27:35 <jtimon> coryfields_ it's actually noinst_LIBRARIES in 39 that determines it, could I change that?
186 2014-10-21 02:27:39 <berndj> which imho is Wrong (tm)
187 2014-10-21 02:27:50 <coryfields_> berndj: yes, i'll concede there. looks like libtool poisoned my thinking on that
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189 2014-10-21 02:29:33 <jtimon> coryfields_ reversing in 262 didn't work but reverting in 39 did
190 2014-10-21 02:29:54 <coryfields_> jtimon: yea, but it's still no guarantee
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192 2014-10-21 02:30:25 <coryfields_> jtimon: translation: i don't care if you change
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199 2014-10-21 02:37:17 <jtimon> yeah, I know it's a long term soution but you're working on one, it's just convenience, great
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205 2014-10-21 02:40:59 <coryfields_> going with berndj's suggestion, adding: "$(libbitcoin_server_a_OBJECTS) : | $(libbitcoin_common_a_OBJECTS)" should do it as well, but guaranteeing the order
206 2014-10-21 02:41:18 <berndj> yeah, i just stumbled on order-only prereqs now
207 2014-10-21 02:41:25 <coryfields_> berndj: my apologies for that, i was very much mistaken.
208 2014-10-21 02:42:16 <berndj> it smells like a gnu make-ism, but i don't know if you care about non-gnu makes
209 2014-10-21 02:42:29 <coryfields_> we're pretty deep in 'em already
210 2014-10-21 02:43:13 <jtimon> ok, guaranteeing the order is better, for sure
211 2014-10-21 02:43:22 <coryfields_> i'm not proposing that change, btw. i'd rather not add depends rules that aren't really necessary for anything
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238 2014-10-21 03:20:46 <coryfields_> berndj: aha, there's the culprit
239 2014-10-21 03:20:55 <coryfields_> berndj: fyi, automake does something non-obvious
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245 2014-10-21 03:21:28 <coryfields_> all-am: Makefile $(LIBRARIES) $(PROGRAMS)
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247 2014-10-21 03:21:59 <coryfields_> so, setting the order for the binaries is correct, but they have to be in the correct order where jtimon mentioned as well, for the general "make" or "make check" case.
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296 2014-10-21 04:29:08 <justanotheruser> 00:20 <+Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: it's being "developed" in multiple branches
297 2014-10-21 04:29:11 <justanotheruser> is there a master I mean
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300 2014-10-21 04:29:43 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: the main master branch?
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303 2014-10-21 04:30:46 <justanotheruser> oh that makes sense. I was thinking bitcoind may just keep its consensus code rather than use the library
304 2014-10-21 04:32:49 <visiteur_1> if you are well off and healthy please consider to make a donation to a poor guy and his family and please spread it :) https://secure.changa.co.ke/myweb/share/3050
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449 2014-10-21 08:28:30 <jessep2> hi folks. will the -blocknotify command fire when a -reindex is done (i.e. for every block)?
450 2014-10-21 08:28:44 War_Panda has quit (Quit: Leaving)
451 2014-10-21 08:28:53 <kyuupichan> A question about MAX_BLOCK_SIZE: it seems that in main.cpp where this is enforced, it is checked by serializing the block and checking its size. Is there a reason why it's done this expensive way, rather than e.g. just checking the payload size of the "block" command? Presumably they are one and the same?
452 2014-10-21 08:29:29 <jessep2> and a related question: will the -walletnotify command fire for all transactions upon a rescan/reindex/zapwallettxes?
453 2014-10-21 08:29:29 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
454 2014-10-21 08:32:19 <phantomcircuit> kyuupichan, because that would be more dangerous
455 2014-10-21 08:32:23 <bad_duck> is header first synchronization in bitcoin-core 0.9.3 ? or should I get src frong github to test this ?
456 2014-10-21 08:32:29 <kyuupichan> phantomcircuit: How so?
457 2014-10-21 08:33:02 <sipa> kyuupichan: it would be incorrect
458 2014-10-21 08:33:21 <sipa> kyuupichan: the size is not the size of the packet, but the size of the minimal serialization of the data
459 2014-10-21 08:33:53 <sipa> so you can use a non-minimally encoded block (for example for the transaction count) which is slightly above 1M bytes, but when correctly encoded, it is below
460 2014-10-21 08:33:54 <kyuupichan> sipa: Interesting. Where is there room for ambiguity?
461 2014-10-21 08:33:57 <sipa> which is valid
462 2014-10-21 08:34:05 <kyuupichan> I see.
463 2014-10-21 08:34:30 <kyuupichan> The ambiguous encoding being varints?
464 2014-10-21 08:34:33 <sipa> yes
465 2014-10-21 08:34:40 <sipa> all of them, actually
466 2014-10-21 08:34:46 <kyuupichan> How nasty
467 2014-10-21 08:35:10 <kyuupichan> I assume there are already blocks in the chain which are not minimally encoded?
468 2014-10-21 08:35:19 <sipa> that question doesn't make sense
469 2014-10-21 08:35:31 <sipa> blocks are not defined by their encoded, but by their contents
470 2014-10-21 08:35:41 <sipa> the encoding is just how you transfer it from one peer to another
471 2014-10-21 08:35:53 <sipa> the hash of a block is for example also always computed on the minimal form
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473 2014-10-21 08:36:29 <kyuupichan> Is the only ambiguity in varints? Or scripts too?
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475 2014-10-21 08:37:18 <sipa> well scripts have their own share of ambiguities (see bip62), but as scripts (from the point of view of block rules) are just byte arrays, those do not contribute to the size issue
476 2014-10-21 08:37:38 <sipa> changing the script would modify the transaction, and the block it is in
477 2014-10-21 08:37:54 <sipa> so no, the encoding is purely varints
478 2014-10-21 08:38:12 <sipa> specifically, the transaction count, and the txin and txout counts inside every transaction
479 2014-10-21 08:38:38 <kyuupichan> So just to make sure I understand. The hash of a block needn't match the hash of the data as sent in a block command?
480 2014-10-21 08:38:44 <sipa> indeed
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482 2014-10-21 08:40:31 <kyuupichan> Sorry the hash of a block is the hash of the header which is constant
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484 2014-10-21 08:41:37 <sipa> right, but inside the header is the merkle root
485 2014-10-21 08:41:49 <sipa> which is computed from the transaction hashes
486 2014-10-21 08:42:01 <bad_duck> hmm, I tried to download bitcoin-core from here : http://bitcoin.sipa.be/builds/headersfirst/bitcoin-gf38f7af0/
487 2014-10-21 08:42:25 <sipa> and those transaction hashes are defined by their minimal encoding, not by how they are sent over the wire
488 2014-10-21 08:42:25 <bad_duck> but all I get is "Segmentation fault" when launching bitcoin-qt (both 32+64bit), any idea ?
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490 2014-10-21 08:42:35 <sipa> bad_duck: anything in debug.log?
491 2014-10-21 08:42:59 <bad_duck> sipa: in my ~/.bitcoin ? nope
492 2014-10-21 08:43:13 <bad_duck> I trashed the folder to have a clean install
493 2014-10-21 08:43:17 <sipa> bad_duck: i suggest compiling master yourself
494 2014-10-21 08:43:26 <sipa> there may be library issues etc
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496 2014-10-21 08:43:27 <bad_duck> but the 0.9.3 official build is running fine
497 2014-10-21 08:44:10 <bad_duck> sipa: seems that what I'll have to do I to test header first sync
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500 2014-10-21 08:44:35 <jessep2> my first question sounds like a no: !IsInitialBlockDownload() (which apparently incl udes reindexing) is the condition by which blocknotify gets called
501 2014-10-21 08:45:12 <sipa> jessep2: indeed
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503 2014-10-21 08:45:26 <sipa> reindexing would otherwise pretty much be a forkbomb for your system
504 2014-10-21 08:45:38 <sipa> (spanwing thousands of processes)
505 2014-10-21 08:45:55 <jessep2> sipa: yes, that makes sense
506 2014-10-21 08:46:12 <jessep2> (not forkbombing during an intiial download/reindex that is)
507 2014-10-21 08:46:40 * sipa afk
508 2014-10-21 08:47:03 <kyuupichan> sipa: Thanks for your help. So it's actually the transactions whose correct hash (the one in the merkle tree) needn't match the hash of the bytes received on the wire.
509 2014-10-21 08:47:51 <kyuupichan> How unfortunate.
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540 2014-10-21 09:42:21 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: if by chance you're merging the submitblock fix tonight, ping me here and I'll be glad to rebase the next 2 on top (or anything else you need)
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545 2014-10-21 09:51:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: you're registering the StateCatcher before the ProcessBlock call, and unregistering afterwards - is this guaranteed to work, or can it be possible that the signal arrives later/asynchronously?
546 2014-10-21 09:54:46 <wumpus> ie, will the signal be raised from the same thread, just deeper in the call tree?
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550 2014-10-21 09:56:08 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I'm not familiar with boost signals, but in theory we have the cs_main lock held the whole time
551 2014-10-21 09:56:21 <Luke-Jr> so it *shouldn't* be processing blocks except in our own thread
552 2014-10-21 09:57:44 <wumpus> ok that makes sense - so the signal won't be raised from a script validation thread, for example?
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557 2014-10-21 09:59:30 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: it's only called from ConnectTip, which should only be called with cs_main held
558 2014-10-21 09:59:31 <wumpus> I can take a look myself too, it just *looks* a bit weird to me to register a signal handler for the duration of one call, for the purpose of getting some information from deeper in the call chain, usually you'd want to register a signal for information that arrives asynchronously
559 2014-10-21 09:59:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa wanted to do it this way, and I can see why (it's much simpler)
560 2014-10-21 10:00:04 <wumpus> so in that case you want to wait for the signal to arrive for the RPC to return
561 2014-10-21 10:00:11 <Luke-Jr> no
562 2014-10-21 10:00:21 <Luke-Jr> the signal will occur during ProcessBlock, deep in the reorg code, or not
563 2014-10-21 10:00:26 <Luke-Jr> both cases are handled
564 2014-10-21 10:00:33 <wumpus> ok
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566 2014-10-21 10:00:54 <Luke-Jr> if the block isn't checked, we return "inconclusive"
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569 2014-10-21 10:01:27 <wumpus> do we want to return the text "inconclusive" or should that have a status code?
570 2014-10-21 10:02:17 <wumpus> ah we do the same for "rejected"
571 2014-10-21 10:02:19 <wumpus> ok
572 2014-10-21 10:02:28 <Luke-Jr> historically, we've been returning "orphan" for true orphan blocks that we can't check
573 2014-10-21 10:02:44 <Luke-Jr> yes, the return value is a string stating why it was rejected
574 2014-10-21 10:03:01 <wumpus> or ::null when it was accepted
575 2014-10-21 10:03:09 <Luke-Jr> right
576 2014-10-21 10:04:02 <wumpus> 5105 is merged
577 2014-10-21 10:06:24 <bad_duck> How can I verify that I'm using header first sync ? (I git clone from github master this morning)
578 2014-10-21 10:06:37 aburan28 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
579 2014-10-21 10:06:57 <wumpus> if you have cloned from master this morning, you will be using headers first sync
580 2014-10-21 10:09:00 <bad_duck> ok thx, btw it seems nice -> Statup time : 30 mn ago, 2years and 9 week behind, downloading a full connection speed (2 MB/s)
581 2014-10-21 10:09:13 <wumpus> but if you really want to check you have the right tree, see if 84d13ee appears in the history of your tree
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583 2014-10-21 10:10:55 <bad_duck> wumpus: got it (Merge pull request #5095) so it must be ok (and seems to be), thx
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601 2014-10-21 10:39:04 <CodeShark> wumpus: have you had a chance to look at 5107 again?
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604 2014-10-21 10:42:15 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes, but it will take some time to verify all the locks are properly pushed down ; I'd have preferred an intermediate commit that just puts the locks at the beginnig of each function
605 2014-10-21 10:42:55 <wumpus> before trying to push them down even further
606 2014-10-21 10:43:09 <CodeShark> yeah, I was considering that - there's only one function where I think there might be an issue
607 2014-10-21 10:43:31 <CodeShark> getinfo
608 2014-10-21 10:43:42 <wumpus> getmininginfo is a bit weird, I don't think there is an advantage to getting the lock twice
609 2014-10-21 10:43:59 <CodeShark> yeah, I realize it's a recursive mutex
610 2014-10-21 10:44:14 <CodeShark> I was a little afraid of rpc functions that call other rpc functions
611 2014-10-21 10:44:29 <wumpus> to release it for one push_back
612 2014-10-21 10:44:32 <wumpus> you shouldn't
613 2014-10-21 10:45:06 <CodeShark> then with getinfo, the conditionals on pwalletMain make it harder to use RAII
614 2014-10-21 10:45:29 <wumpus> ugh yes that's ugly
615 2014-10-21 10:45:31 <wumpus> :D
616 2014-10-21 10:45:36 drawingthesun has joined
617 2014-10-21 10:46:00 <wumpus> then again
618 2014-10-21 10:46:16 <wumpus> getinfo is going to be deprecated, exactly for reasons like this
619 2014-10-21 10:47:48 <wumpus> what about other calls that conditionally use the wallet?
620 2014-10-21 10:47:58 <wumpus> validateaddress, signtransaction come to mind
621 2014-10-21 10:50:17 <wumpus> they need a similar construction
622 2014-10-21 10:50:36 <CodeShark> validateaddress - yes
623 2014-10-21 10:50:44 <CodeShark> but you mean signrawtransaction, right?
624 2014-10-21 10:50:49 <wumpus> yes
625 2014-10-21 10:51:48 <wumpus> it's annoying to have the same calls do a different thing based on whether there is a wallet or not, but for now, we're stuck with that API
626 2014-10-21 10:51:49 <CodeShark> the way I'd rather do it is to just start placing the locks around the wallet calls that are already in the #ifdef
627 2014-10-21 10:52:12 <wumpus> indeed
628 2014-10-21 10:52:14 <CodeShark> we place an RAII lock at the beginning of the function, then an RAII lock within a code block inside the #ifdef
629 2014-10-21 10:52:22 <CodeShark> but...
630 2014-10-21 10:52:23 <wumpus> do be careful for the case where pWallet is NULL
631 2014-10-21 10:52:26 <CodeShark> right
632 2014-10-21 10:52:36 <CodeShark> that's the annoying thing that makes it a pain in the ass
633 2014-10-21 10:52:37 <wumpus> so you'd need to put the lock in if(pWallet) as well
634 2014-10-21 10:52:55 <CodeShark> yes, absolutely
635 2014-10-21 10:53:20 <CodeShark> can we do LOCK(a); LOCK(b);?
636 2014-10-21 10:53:27 <wumpus> sure
637 2014-10-21 10:53:40 <wumpus> (besides the obvious, that you take the locks always in the same order)
638 2014-10-21 10:54:36 <CodeShark> hmm, validateaddress doesn't seem to check whether pwalletMain is NULL
639 2014-10-21 10:54:39 <wumpus> but that's easy; everything requires cs_main, wallet functions require cs_main and cs_wallet
640 2014-10-21 10:54:54 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes it is nasty, uses some ternary construction :-)
641 2014-10-21 10:54:59 <CodeShark> oh...
642 2014-10-21 10:55:06 <CodeShark> it gets short-circuited
643 2014-10-21 10:55:17 <CodeShark> lol
644 2014-10-21 10:55:32 <CodeShark> it would be better to wrap all those conditionals into a single if (pwalletMain)
645 2014-10-21 10:56:06 <wumpus> I guess; anyhow, go with the solution that is most obviously correct for now
646 2014-10-21 10:56:26 <wumpus> hmm though RAII is important: this code uses exceptions
647 2014-10-21 10:56:29 <CodeShark> someone tried to get clever with the && operator - but in this context it only obfuscates
648 2014-10-21 10:57:01 <wumpus> yes, well if you write it in a way that's clearer that's fine
649 2014-10-21 10:58:06 <wumpus> just be sure that it still handles the same cases (not 100% sure whether they all get tested in rpc tests)
650 2014-10-21 10:58:28 <CodeShark> looks like only the "ismine" field gets populated regardless
651 2014-10-21 10:58:45 <wumpus> generally the without-wallet cases have worst test coverage
652 2014-10-21 10:58:48 <CodeShark> "iswatchonly" and "account" only get populated if pwalletMain is not null
653 2014-10-21 10:58:49 <wumpus> worse*
654 2014-10-21 10:59:15 <wumpus> ok
655 2014-10-21 10:59:33 macboz has joined
656 2014-10-21 11:00:16 <CodeShark> hmm, if we put "ismine" after "iswatchonly" and "account" it's easier to take it out of the conditional
657 2014-10-21 11:00:27 <CodeShark> will it break anything if we change the field order?
658 2014-10-21 11:00:34 <wumpus> no, just update the help as well
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660 2014-10-21 11:01:33 <wumpus> people are not supposed to depend on the JSON field order, that's why we return objects and not lists :)
661 2014-10-21 11:02:44 <CodeShark> yeah, it's unfortunate the same thing doesn't apply to JSON-RPC calls :)
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663 2014-10-21 11:02:54 <wumpus> agreed
664 2014-10-21 11:03:08 <wumpus> if I were to redesign the RPC, I'd use named parameters all over the place
665 2014-10-21 11:03:24 <CodeShark> I've debated this issue for my own APIs - whether it's really that important to comply with JSON-RPC or just use named parameters everywhere
666 2014-10-21 11:04:03 <CodeShark> you can still use the method and id fields of JSON-RPC
667 2014-10-21 11:04:09 <CodeShark> but just change params to an object
668 2014-10-21 11:04:20 <wumpus> then again we're stuck with this and it works, there's no pressing reason to change it, unless we do some big non-backwards-compatible "JSON API 2.0"
669 2014-10-21 11:04:45 <wumpus> but I doubt it's useful, it will just give people a lot of work
670 2014-10-21 11:05:18 <wumpus> yes if you were to design a new API that's a good consideration; all current JSON API wrappers will expect bitcoin-style positional arguments
671 2014-10-21 11:05:22 <CodeShark> the main disadvantage as things are right now is greater difficulty in extending existing commands - but the main disadvantage to changing it is that it breaks most existing apps
672 2014-10-21 11:05:48 Starduster has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
673 2014-10-21 11:05:51 <CodeShark> ultimately, the path forward is probably to support both approaches in future releases
674 2014-10-21 11:06:07 <CodeShark> but that can wait :p
675 2014-10-21 11:06:21 <wumpus> it's mostly the wallet API that requires 'extending' current calls sometimes, the node API has been extremely stable with mostly just added commands/return fields
676 2014-10-21 11:07:00 <wumpus> ... after splitting off the wallet to a new project, people can innovate whatever they want there
677 2014-10-21 11:07:10 <CodeShark> a really annoying thing about the parameter list with default parameter thing is that you cannot arbitrarily select which parameters are to use the defaults
678 2014-10-21 11:07:28 <CodeShark> i.e. omitted parameters use defaults
679 2014-10-21 11:07:36 <wumpus> yes
680 2014-10-21 11:07:59 <CodeShark> but this is also a problem with C++ :)
681 2014-10-21 11:08:17 <wumpus> on the other hand -- maybe API versioning is better then adding 'defaulted' arguments
682 2014-10-21 11:08:37 <CodeShark> the only way around it in C++ is to have a special overloaded version for each case
683 2014-10-21 11:09:22 <wumpus> make the caller select an API version; so if you have to introduce a new argument, add the argument in a new version which requires it, then deprecate the old version over time
684 2014-10-21 11:09:23 <CodeShark> and even then, C++ can only resolve the call by type
685 2014-10-21 11:10:25 <wumpus> right
686 2014-10-21 11:10:26 <CodeShark> there are two approaches to API version - either a switchable modeâ¦or perhaps better, prefixed method names
687 2014-10-21 11:10:53 <Luke-Jr> ⦠or a new URI
688 2014-10-21 11:11:03 <CodeShark> yes - we could use a different port altogether
689 2014-10-21 11:11:05 <Luke-Jr> but IIRC a long time ago we decided when we break compat, it will just break XD
690 2014-10-21 11:11:17 <wumpus> no, no new port, a new URI would be fine
691 2014-10-21 11:11:22 <CodeShark> right
692 2014-10-21 11:11:30 <CodeShark> anyhow, these issues can wait
693 2014-10-21 11:12:01 <wumpus> there is a mechanism now to add new APIs to the same HTTP port (see for example https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2844)
694 2014-10-21 11:12:22 <wumpus> yes, I want to wait at least after splitting off the wallet, as the requirement for a wallet interface is completely different from a node interface in the first place
695 2014-10-21 11:12:52 <wumpus> wallet interface is authenticated, stateful, confidential, whereas the node interface is mostly just information requests and some sysadmin commands
696 2014-10-21 11:13:06 <CodeShark> alright - so then the http server will have to check HTTP path and use that along with the method name in dispatching
697 2014-10-21 11:13:56 <wumpus> I'm in favor of moving pure information requests to REST HTTP style (as jgarzik's pull does)
698 2014-10-21 11:14:17 chris2000 has joined
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700 2014-10-21 11:15:18 <CodeShark> the http server should also have an authentication layer, as you say - where you can assign permission levels or groups to different commands
701 2014-10-21 11:15:26 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
702 2014-10-21 11:15:41 <CodeShark> and ideally, allow the association of access keys with different permission levels, groups, or specific users
703 2014-10-21 11:15:51 <wumpus> nah, not for bitcoin core
704 2014-10-21 11:15:55 <wumpus> I don't want to handle that
705 2014-10-21 11:16:13 <CodeShark> well, bitcoin core should probably not have any account management functionality :p
706 2014-10-21 11:16:15 <wumpus> there's mr sysadmin that controls the node, and the rest that can just do harmless things like request block contents
707 2014-10-21 11:16:36 <wumpus> right, that must go
708 2014-10-21 11:16:49 <CodeShark> so yeah, just two levels
709 2014-10-21 11:16:55 <CodeShark> or three, I suppose
710 2014-10-21 11:17:05 <wumpus> just two
711 2014-10-21 11:17:07 <CodeShark> admin, info, and no access
712 2014-10-21 11:17:30 <CodeShark> right now we just have admin and info on one side and no access on the other
713 2014-10-21 11:17:39 <wumpus> for no access just block access to the port
714 2014-10-21 11:17:45 sdfvsfgvsdf has joined
715 2014-10-21 11:17:48 <wumpus> ie, using binding or a firewall
716 2014-10-21 11:17:57 fanquake_ has joined
717 2014-10-21 11:17:57 <wumpus> or rpcallowip
718 2014-10-21 11:18:05 <CodeShark> we already prevent access via username, password, and allowed ips
719 2014-10-21 11:18:19 <CodeShark> but we do not distinguish between admin access and info access
720 2014-10-21 11:18:41 <wumpus> yes, so you're right, there are already three levels
721 2014-10-21 11:19:23 <CodeShark> we could have two separate access keys (username/password combinations)
722 2014-10-21 11:19:24 <wumpus> hosts that can't connect the port or are not in allowip -> get the door shut on them, hosts only in allowip -> can make r/o requests, with username/password -> can do r/w requests
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726 2014-10-21 11:20:44 <CodeShark> and then the wallet functionality could have its own access levels - lol
727 2014-10-21 11:21:00 <CodeShark> anyhow...
728 2014-10-21 11:21:04 <wumpus> I suppose so - but not in bitcoin core, we want to move away from that
729 2014-10-21 11:21:16 <CodeShark> yes, I was being at least a little facetious
730 2014-10-21 11:21:44 <CodeShark> anyhow, let's fix these locks and merge 5107
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733 2014-10-21 11:23:34 <CodeShark> as a separate note, how do you prefer to handle these edits? keep the git history in chronological order as we make these changes and then do a final rebase before merging? or doing rebases as we make these changes?
734 2014-10-21 11:24:13 rdponticelli has joined
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736 2014-10-21 11:24:34 <wumpus> during the review it's better to make chronological commits
737 2014-10-21 11:24:41 <wumpus> then a squash before the merge
738 2014-10-21 11:25:08 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
739 2014-10-21 11:25:20 <CodeShark> ok - I still think it can be useful to break up a pull request into more than one commit - but after at least a few reorders and fixups
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741 2014-10-21 11:26:12 <wumpus> oh sure, it can make sense if you have different concerns isolated in different commits, but chronological commits can usually be squashed
742 2014-10-21 11:26:38 <CodeShark> well, for instance, the lock thing was what my first commit in this pull request addressed - the signals came after that
743 2014-10-21 11:26:47 da2ce7_laptop has joined
744 2014-10-21 11:26:56 <CodeShark> so if we fix the lock thing, I'd do it chronologically, then reorder the commits and make this one a fixup
745 2014-10-21 11:27:10 <wumpus> sometimes it's not entirely straightforward, but try to avoid having 'fix the fix' style commits on merge :-)
746 2014-10-21 11:27:19 <CodeShark> lol
747 2014-10-21 11:27:35 <wumpus> which are fine during review
748 2014-10-21 11:27:40 <CodeShark> no eighteenth amendment? :)
749 2014-10-21 11:28:29 Zarutian has joined
750 2014-10-21 11:28:49 <wumpus> lol I had to google that one (I'm Dutch) :)
751 2014-10-21 11:29:09 <wumpus> github alcohol lock :D
752 2014-10-21 11:29:26 hearn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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756 2014-10-21 11:30:47 <CodeShark> too bad we can't rebase the constitution
757 2014-10-21 11:30:52 moa has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
758 2014-10-21 11:31:26 chris2000 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
759 2014-10-21 11:32:23 <btcdrak> ^
760 2014-10-21 11:33:03 da2ce7_laptop has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
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766 2014-10-21 11:37:08 <CodeShark> wumpus: I'm not sure I entirely get the signrawtransaction logix
767 2014-10-21 11:37:44 chris2000 has joined
768 2014-10-21 11:37:44 <CodeShark> doesn't seem to access pwalletMain directly
769 2014-10-21 11:38:05 <CodeShark> I see a call to EnsureWalletIsUnlocked - and then it seems to use some global objects
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773 2014-10-21 11:40:24 lclc is now known as lclc_bnc
774 2014-10-21 11:40:36 <X00M> A question: What to do with old mining hardware?
775 2014-10-21 11:40:50 <CodeShark> harvest it for precious metals
776 2014-10-21 11:40:54 <X00M> Im talking about ASIC miners
777 2014-10-21 11:41:02 <X00M> isnt a litecoin conversion possible?
778 2014-10-21 11:41:08 <CodeShark> no
779 2014-10-21 11:41:22 <CodeShark> litecoin uses an entirely different hashing algorithm
780 2014-10-21 11:41:30 <X00M> Its all about an algorithm
781 2014-10-21 11:41:37 <X00M> Why no one implements it for ASIC miners
782 2014-10-21 11:41:43 <Luke-Jr> X00M: keep mining
783 2014-10-21 11:41:47 <CodeShark> lol
784 2014-10-21 11:42:00 <X00M> its not profitable anymore
785 2014-10-21 11:42:12 <X00M> difficulty rate is ++
786 2014-10-21 11:42:41 <X00M> why wouldnt it be possible to create the litecoin alghoritm for old ASIC mining system
787 2014-10-21 11:42:52 <CodeShark> because of the AS
788 2014-10-21 11:42:55 <CodeShark> in ASIC
789 2014-10-21 11:42:57 <X00M> Is this a prosessor limitation?
790 2014-10-21 11:43:33 <X00M> Maybe ALU limitation.
791 2014-10-21 11:43:44 <CodeShark> ASICs are optimized to do one thing - and only that one thing wellâ¦and are not designed to be easily reprogrammable
792 2014-10-21 11:44:13 Aquent has joined
793 2014-10-21 11:44:36 <X00M> I wonder why there is no ASM - startup
794 2014-10-21 11:44:56 <X00M> Maybe a community that reprogramms those old systems.
795 2014-10-21 11:45:07 <X00M> its an absolute waste..
796 2014-10-21 11:45:13 jrick has joined
797 2014-10-21 11:45:15 <Luke-Jr> X00M: it's securing the network
798 2014-10-21 11:45:21 OneFixt has joined
799 2014-10-21 11:45:22 <Luke-Jr> it was never supposed to be profitable
800 2014-10-21 11:45:30 <CodeShark> X00M: you are aware of what the AS in ASIC stands for, right?
801 2014-10-21 11:45:34 <X00M> Nice anwser.
802 2014-10-21 11:45:39 <X00M> Yes Asynchronus
803 2014-10-21 11:45:41 <CodeShark> no
804 2014-10-21 11:45:42 phantomcircuit is now known as Guest16666
805 2014-10-21 11:45:45 * Luke-Jr facepalms
806 2014-10-21 11:45:52 <wumpus> CodeShark: signrawtransaction can use the wallet's keystore to 'sign from'
807 2014-10-21 11:45:57 <Luke-Jr> Application-Specific Integrated Circuit
808 2014-10-21 11:46:15 * X00M gotschooled
809 2014-10-21 11:46:43 SDCDev has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
810 2014-10-21 11:47:12 <X00M> Memory on those board are not PROM
811 2014-10-21 11:47:20 <wumpus> when an algorithm is implemented in hardware you can't just 'reprogram' it, you'd have to reorganise the chip's path physically for that, not really realistic
812 2014-10-21 11:47:21 <X00M> You can append
813 2014-10-21 11:47:46 <X00M> Wumpus, you can request circurtry mappings from vendor
814 2014-10-21 11:48:02 <wumpus> maybe with a reaaaly small soldering iron :-) but no kidding, it's impossible, you'd just have to design a new ASIC and produce it
815 2014-10-21 11:48:22 <Luke-Jr> X00M: there is no memory on them
816 2014-10-21 11:48:23 <Luke-Jr> at all
817 2014-10-21 11:48:36 <Luke-Jr> the chip consists entirely of circuits to do mining
818 2014-10-21 11:48:44 aschildbach has joined
819 2014-10-21 11:49:28 <Luke-Jr> X00M: if you want to send me your miners, I'd be glad to take them off your hands..
820 2014-10-21 11:50:16 c0rw1n has joined
821 2014-10-21 11:50:16 <X00M> Luke - the miner has an OS on it..
822 2014-10-21 11:50:33 <wumpus> that's just the management firmware
823 2014-10-21 11:50:33 <X00M> I got a jupiter from KNC for free
824 2014-10-21 11:50:46 <X00M> yes wumpus
825 2014-10-21 11:50:52 <X00M> Ithink so.
826 2014-10-21 11:51:10 <wumpus> you could reprogram that, but it's be pretty pointless, the mining ciruitry it drives is fixed
827 2014-10-21 11:51:28 <wumpus> it would be like reprogramming the firmware in your microwave to think it's a refrigator :-)
828 2014-10-21 11:51:36 <X00M> wumpus: haha
829 2014-10-21 11:51:38 serialbandicoot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
830 2014-10-21 11:51:47 <Luke-Jr> X00M: you can repurpose the controller, sure
831 2014-10-21 11:52:10 <X00M> Could I create an high preformance videocard out of my old miner.
832 2014-10-21 11:52:13 <Luke-Jr> no
833 2014-10-21 11:52:21 <X00M> haha
834 2014-10-21 11:52:25 <X00M> was to good to be true.
835 2014-10-21 11:52:34 <wumpus> no, you cannot do anything with it, except double-sha256 with the goal if creating small hashes
836 2014-10-21 11:52:47 <CodeShark> or harvest it for precious metals :p
837 2014-10-21 11:53:02 <X00M> CodeShark was right.
838 2014-10-21 11:53:07 <X00M> scrap metal
839 2014-10-21 11:53:12 <X00M> What a waste!!!
840 2014-10-21 11:53:19 <wumpus> yes you could try to recycle for materials, but I'm not sure how much is possible there with electronics these days, a lot just ends up in landfills
841 2014-10-21 11:53:22 imfaust has joined
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846 2014-10-21 11:54:01 <CodeShark> extracting gold from ICs can be cheaper than mining it from the earth - but it's only really cost-effective if you do it at large scale
847 2014-10-21 11:54:03 <Luke-Jr> actually
848 2014-10-21 11:54:11 <Luke-Jr> I'm repurposing some of my 65nm BFL miners
849 2014-10-21 11:54:16 <wumpus> it's not like you can (profitably) recycle the silicon and create new wafers from it to print new chips
850 2014-10-21 11:54:20 <wumpus> yes the gold can
851 2014-10-21 11:54:28 <CodeShark> silicon is one of the most abundant elements on the surface of earth
852 2014-10-21 11:54:29 <X00M> Did people even think about re-usability
853 2014-10-21 11:54:33 <Luke-Jr> getting chilly here lately
854 2014-10-21 11:54:35 <X00M> its kind of strange,..
855 2014-10-21 11:54:38 <Luke-Jr> they'll make good heaters maybe
856 2014-10-21 11:54:46 <CodeShark> the only thing that makes wafer silicon "precious" is its purity and how it's doped
857 2014-10-21 11:55:45 Belkaar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
858 2014-10-21 11:55:56 <Luke-Jr> X00M: actually, you said those are KnC miners? KnC stuff tends to be quiet, so probably fits my heating project better than BFL stuff - maybe I can pay shipping if you send me it :p
859 2014-10-21 11:55:58 <X00M> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456033
860 2014-10-21 11:56:09 <CodeShark> but gold CAN be profitably extracted from ICs
861 2014-10-21 11:56:15 <X00M> Luke-Jr: yes it was KNC.
862 2014-10-21 11:56:18 <X00M> Its a Jupiter
863 2014-10-21 11:56:37 <Luke-Jr> X00M: find out how much shipping to Florida is (33523)
864 2014-10-21 11:57:00 <Luke-Jr> oh, you're .nl - probably too expensive :<
865 2014-10-21 11:57:12 <X00M> your heating project?
866 2014-10-21 11:57:14 <Luke-Jr> doesn't it get cold in .nl?
867 2014-10-21 11:57:22 <Luke-Jr> X00M: yes, I'm using miners to heat my house :P
868 2014-10-21 11:57:23 <X00M> Wel Luke-Jr, it does
869 2014-10-21 11:57:24 <Luke-Jr> old miners*
870 2014-10-21 11:57:28 <X00M> Hahaha
871 2014-10-21 11:57:32 <X00M> Nice project
872 2014-10-21 11:57:42 DanMAbraham has joined
873 2014-10-21 11:57:48 <X00M> but is this heating more efficient / cost effective than traditional heating
874 2014-10-21 11:57:51 <X00M> ?
875 2014-10-21 11:58:02 <Luke-Jr> I would think so, since it's mining bitcoins too
876 2014-10-21 11:58:09 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin-subsidised heating
877 2014-10-21 11:58:27 <X00M> if you say old mining hardware.. what you mean?
878 2014-10-21 11:58:31 <X00M> what kind of hashes
879 2014-10-21 11:58:48 <Luke-Jr> I was thinking the asicminer cubes, BFL stuff, etc
880 2014-10-21 11:58:52 <CodeShark> the stone age was the first silicon revolution :p
881 2014-10-21 11:59:06 <Luke-Jr> BFL stuff is noisy though, so not ideal
882 2014-10-21 11:59:32 <X00M> KNC is also noisy..
883 2014-10-21 11:59:40 <X00M> BUT - generate good heat
884 2014-10-21 11:59:44 <Luke-Jr> really? my Saturn was quiet
885 2014-10-21 11:59:48 <Luke-Jr> compared to BFL at least
886 2014-10-21 11:59:49 elichai2 has joined
887 2014-10-21 11:59:51 <Luke-Jr> BFL sounds like a jet
888 2014-10-21 11:59:54 <X00M> I had a jupiter
889 2014-10-21 11:59:58 <X00M> same fans?
890 2014-10-21 12:00:03 <X00M> no idea
891 2014-10-21 12:00:05 <Luke-Jr> Jupiter is just a double-Saturn AFAIK
892 2014-10-21 12:00:28 <Luke-Jr> maybe we shoudl take this to #bitcoin-mining
893 2014-10-21 12:00:31 <Luke-Jr> not very dev-topic
894 2014-10-21 12:00:31 <X00M> Its just sad..
895 2014-10-21 12:00:37 Belkaar has joined
896 2014-10-21 12:00:39 <CodeShark> wumpus: still not seeing how signrawtransaction accesses the wallet keystore - the only wallet-specific call I see is EnsureWalletIsUnlocked
897 2014-10-21 12:00:54 <CodeShark> oh, duh
898 2014-10-21 12:00:56 <CodeShark> NVM
899 2014-10-21 12:00:57 Namworld has joined
900 2014-10-21 12:00:58 <X00M> yes Luke-Jr .
901 2014-10-21 12:01:39 <CodeShark> does EnsureWalletIsUnlocked need to be wrapped?
902 2014-10-21 12:02:52 <CodeShark> or can we just place the lock before assigning the keystore variable?
903 2014-10-21 12:03:13 ThomasV has joined
904 2014-10-21 12:03:17 <wumpus> CodeShark: trying to find out
905 2014-10-21 12:03:31 <wumpus> EnsureWalletIsUnlocked calls pwalletMain->IsLocked()
906 2014-10-21 12:04:19 <CodeShark> so it assumes that pwalletMain is not NULL
907 2014-10-21 12:04:20 SDCDev has joined
908 2014-10-21 12:04:23 <wumpus> trying to find the implementation of that, ah in Crypter
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911 2014-10-21 12:04:39 <wumpus> yes it doesn't aquire the lock itself
912 2014-10-21 12:04:48 <wumpus> so why not add a wallet lock to EnsureWalletIsUnlocked
913 2014-10-21 12:05:07 <wumpus> and indeed, don't call it if pwalletMain is NULL
914 2014-10-21 12:05:40 <CodeShark> does this mean a potential crash scenario with the way things are?
915 2014-10-21 12:07:03 <CodeShark> and is it safe to lock cs_wallet just for the IsLocked operation, then unlock, then lock again to assign keystore?
916 2014-10-21 12:07:23 <wumpus> I wouldn't dare to say, the reason the RPC locks are so coarse-grained is exactly because it is huge amounts of work and error-prone to audit everything in detail
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918 2014-10-21 12:07:46 <CodeShark> what if another thread locks the wallet between the call to EnsureWalletIsUnlocked and the assignment of keystore?
919 2014-10-21 12:07:47 <wumpus> there used to be lots of threading issues with RPC, so please err on the side of taking too much locks instead of taking too few
920 2014-10-21 12:08:11 <CodeShark> seems like we need to keep the lock throughout
921 2014-10-21 12:08:15 <wumpus> CodeShark: that can happen, and will just raise an exception
922 2014-10-21 12:08:40 <CodeShark> so that's acceptable behavior?
923 2014-10-21 12:09:30 <wumpus> there are other places where the wallet can become unlocked during an operation, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3673
924 2014-10-21 12:09:41 <wumpus> although I'd prefer to not introduce more, if possible
925 2014-10-21 12:10:21 <wumpus> as said - this first commit should ideally just provide course locking
926 2014-10-21 12:10:47 <wumpus> not too much changes from before; later on, if performance requires it, we can always push the locks down further for specific calls
927 2014-10-21 12:10:49 <CodeShark> yeah - problem is that we need to check whether pwalletMain is NULL - and only lock if it isn't
928 2014-10-21 12:11:15 <CodeShark> so RAII is only natural in situations where we can wrap entire blocks
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930 2014-10-21 12:11:40 <wumpus> or we'd need a conditionally-lock/unlock-wallet RAII.. ugh :p
931 2014-10-21 12:12:25 <CodeShark> the correct way to do it would be to have the wallet class itself manage its own mutex
932 2014-10-21 12:12:38 <hearn> another possibility is to have the wallet be "owned" by a particular thread, as in the actor model. other threads request data by scheduling closures into it. with c++11 that's probably not too painful anymore
933 2014-10-21 12:12:46 <CodeShark> and expose all atomic operations in the wallet interface
934 2014-10-21 12:12:53 <wumpus> anyhow - if you do it that way, lock the wallet for ensurewalletisunlocked, then lock it again after, make sure to test that the race condition doesn't cause a crash
935 2014-10-21 12:13:23 <wumpus> raising an exception (ie, keystore is locked) is fine
936 2014-10-21 12:13:48 <wumpus> that's why #3673 isn't a critical issue, it makes the calls fail, but doesn't cause any harm apart from that
937 2014-10-21 12:13:59 <hearn> bitcoinj has endless fun with these issues too, actually i was just narrowing the wallet lock there because some users started seeing big UI lag when the wallet became huge
938 2014-10-21 12:14:24 <wumpus> hearn: yes, an actor based model would have been best
939 2014-10-21 12:14:30 <hearn> there's probably no truly elegant or perfect way to manage concurrency in bitcoin libraries
940 2014-10-21 12:14:59 <CodeShark> it's probably not worth trying to retrofit the bitcoind wallet to support this model
941 2014-10-21 12:15:05 <wumpus> I'd rather just get rid of wallet functionality in bitcoin core
942 2014-10-21 12:15:07 <wumpus> right CodeShark
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945 2014-10-21 12:15:44 <hearn> yeah
946 2014-10-21 12:15:49 <CodeShark> it wasn't designed to be very scalable - so why waste time trying to squeeze out maximum concurrency? :)
947 2014-10-21 12:16:04 <wumpus> right
948 2014-10-21 12:16:14 <wumpus> that just gives people the wrong idea
949 2014-10-21 12:16:19 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt should be ported to another wallet first tho
950 2014-10-21 12:16:24 <hearn> well you can get away with coarser locking in Core because it only runs on desktops, and people expect old-looking desktop apps to randomly freeze up for seconds at a time :)
951 2014-10-21 12:16:40 <CodeShark> my main concern at this point is more with code cleanliness than performance
952 2014-10-21 12:16:45 <hearn> the standards are lower. if you try that on Android the OS pops up a crash dialog as punishment :(
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954 2014-10-21 12:17:21 <wumpus> yes, the UI thread in android should just be the UI thread, and not do computations and such
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957 2014-10-21 12:17:33 <wumpus> that's a very sensible design anyhow
958 2014-10-21 12:18:04 <CodeShark> I find it annoying when an Android app hangsâ¦and then once it does start responding, I get prompted whether I want to wait for it or close it
959 2014-10-21 12:18:05 <hearn> it's great ..... until the UI needs information from the backend :) like "what is my current receive address" or "what is my balance"
960 2014-10-21 12:18:09 <wumpus> especially if you want to do animations, you can't have that the UI thread is blocked even a few MS
961 2014-10-21 12:18:14 <CodeShark> I'd like it if I got asked WHILE it was hanging whether I want to close it
962 2014-10-21 12:18:28 <CodeShark> chrome does the same thing to me
963 2014-10-21 12:18:34 <hearn> CodeShark: it pops up after a few seconds, if you try and interact with it. so that sounds like you just got unlucky. if the app was truly stopped, it'd still appear
964 2014-10-21 12:18:36 <wumpus> indeed - you're forced to use message passing and signals
965 2014-10-21 12:18:48 <wumpus> worker threads
966 2014-10-21 12:19:07 <hearn> bitcoinj supports direct calling from the UI thread, but sometimes aschildbach still has to load things from a worker thread
967 2014-10-21 12:19:17 <hearn> for cases where it'd be too slow otherwise. typically this is only an issue with huge wallets.
968 2014-10-21 12:19:25 <hearn> because some things are unoptimised.
969 2014-10-21 12:19:26 <wumpus> firefox is really bad in this regard, if javascript gets too heavy (happens often on github), then the whole thing will just hang
970 2014-10-21 12:19:35 <wumpus> ubuntu sometimes detects that and makes the window grey
971 2014-10-21 12:19:48 <hearn> yeah. firefox is going the same way as chrome with separated renderer processes, so that should get fixed at some point
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977 2014-10-21 12:20:41 <hearn> in Lighthouse i'm using a combination of actor model, locking and asynchronously replicated collections. you can get ObservableList, ObservableMap, ObservableSet etc from the backend, and register listeners on them or wire them directly to the UI. but they are guaranteed to only be updated on the UI thread. the backend just writes to these collections as normal.
978 2014-10-21 12:20:45 BananaLotus has joined
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980 2014-10-21 12:20:55 <hearn> then the collection implementations know how to replicate deltas from backend to frontend thread
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984 2014-10-21 12:21:13 <hearn> it's worked out very nicely. the code is very clean. the observable collection implementation is very tricky but i didn't write that :)
985 2014-10-21 12:21:21 <hearn> now i wish bitcoinj itself worked that way. well, maybe one day ...
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992 2014-10-21 12:22:33 <CodeShark> signrawtransaction is a bit of a challenge to do correctly with RAII
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996 2014-10-21 12:23:21 <wumpus> right, your table model has to cope with the case where the user requests data but it isn't available yet, it's a bit unfortunate that qt doesn't support this or at least requires implementing all the logic yourself
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1000 2014-10-21 12:24:28 <wumpus> CodeShark: hmm - what about splitting function into an inner function that takes a keystore
1001 2014-10-21 12:24:42 <wumpus> CodeShark: then in the outer function there is a pWallet path and an other path
1002 2014-10-21 12:24:50 <CodeShark> wumpus: right - that's sensible
1003 2014-10-21 12:24:51 <wumpus> both use the same inner function
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1005 2014-10-21 12:26:06 <CodeShark> actually, I only think keystore is used once after being assigned
1006 2014-10-21 12:26:23 <CodeShark> so we could just wrap that statement in the if (pwalletMain)
1007 2014-10-21 12:26:55 <wumpus> ok
1008 2014-10-21 12:27:07 <CodeShark> howeverâ¦that statement is inside a loop
1009 2014-10-21 12:27:41 <wumpus> hah, it's never easy
1010 2014-10-21 12:27:48 <CodeShark> perhaps it's best to put the entire loop inside an inner function
1011 2014-10-21 12:27:56 <wumpus> yes
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1017 2014-10-21 12:32:01 <CodeShark> argh - I'm almost tempted to just put everything in a try clause, enter a critical section, then leave the critical section in the catch clause and rethrow :p
1018 2014-10-21 12:32:45 <CodeShark> it's ugly code - but it would at least preserve the existing behavior without having to delve into the logic
1019 2014-10-21 12:34:30 <wumpus> well, in that case I'd prefer to add a lock-if-not-null RAII, it's ugly but not that ugly
1020 2014-10-21 12:35:04 <CodeShark> the objective of 5107 was NOT to optimize concurrencyâ¦it was simply to push the locks down the call stack so that rpcserver doesn't have to know about them
1021 2014-10-21 12:35:15 <wumpus> that's what I said
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1024 2014-10-21 12:35:48 <wumpus> but maybe now you understand why it wasn't done before :-)
1025 2014-10-21 12:35:52 <CodeShark> lol
1026 2014-10-21 12:36:29 <wumpus> it's annoying that there are methods that conditionally use the wallet anyway, ideally they would be split into a wallet and non-wallet method
1027 2014-10-21 12:36:45 <CodeShark> absolutely
1028 2014-10-21 12:37:10 <wumpus> (but that's what gave me the idea of the inner function...)
1029 2014-10-21 12:37:41 <CodeShark> I think lock-if-not-null RAII is the best way to go for this merge, IMHO
1030 2014-10-21 12:37:57 <CodeShark> preserves behavior, accomplishes the first objective
1031 2014-10-21 12:38:10 <wumpus> yes, though it clutters the sync.h with something we'd rather not have
1032 2014-10-21 12:38:30 <wumpus> but yes maybe it's the best option...
1033 2014-10-21 12:38:39 <wumpus> at least it's very straightforward
1034 2014-10-21 12:38:58 <wumpus> could always be removed later
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1036 2014-10-21 12:39:17 <wumpus> it's temporary :P
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1038 2014-10-21 12:39:57 <CodeShark> how would such a macro work? short-circuit?
1039 2014-10-21 12:40:35 <wumpus> a class that aquires a critical section in the constructor and releases it in the destructor
1040 2014-10-21 12:40:42 <wumpus> just with a if(pBla) around both
1041 2014-10-21 12:41:00 <CodeShark> right
1042 2014-10-21 12:41:32 <CodeShark> we can safely assume that pwalletMain won't be assigned in between, right?
1043 2014-10-21 12:42:23 <CodeShark> or worse, destroyed
1044 2014-10-21 12:42:47 <wumpus> yes
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1046 2014-10-21 12:43:24 <wumpus> mind that pwalletMain itself it not protected by any lock - it's supposed to stay the same until shutdown (which first tears down RPC)
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1048 2014-10-21 12:45:23 <CodeShark> so then usage would be something like CONDITIONAL_LOCK(pwalletMain, pwalletMain->cs_wallet);
1049 2014-10-21 12:45:59 <wumpus> dunno if it makes sense to pass pwalletMain itself - just CONDITIONAL_LOCK(pwalletMain ? &pwalletMain->cs_wallet : 0)
1050 2014-10-21 12:46:47 <CodeShark> ugh - lol
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1053 2014-10-21 12:49:45 <CodeShark> well, either way, it's certainly better than if (pcmd->threadsafe) ⦠else if (!pwalletMain) ⦠else ...
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1055 2014-10-21 12:50:24 <wumpus> yes - it's just that, a first step toward pushing down the lock further
1056 2014-10-21 12:50:36 <wumpus> without doing anything remotely tricky or risky
1057 2014-10-21 12:53:00 <CodeShark> ok, bedtime for me - I'll work on it tomorrow
1058 2014-10-21 12:53:46 <CodeShark> nite
1059 2014-10-21 12:53:51 <wumpus> night!
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1144 2014-10-21 13:48:56 <chmod755> is there a tool to search for bitcoin payments of a certain value (e.g. 1.2345678 BTC)
1145 2014-10-21 13:50:24 mkarrer has joined
1146 2014-10-21 13:50:43 <elichai2> chmod755, try at #bitcoin this is not the right channel
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1148 2014-10-21 13:53:36 <earlz> really? I would've figured that question to be on-topic
1149 2014-10-21 13:55:17 <Dr-G> ^^ I'm actually looking for a parsed transaction database too
1150 2014-10-21 13:55:42 <earlz> In theory, you could skim though all outputs block-by-block... but it'd be horribly slow (ie, take more than 3 hours)
1151 2014-10-21 13:56:03 <wumpus> abe https://github.com/bitcoin-abe/bitcoin-abe or https://github.com/bitpay/insight can probably do things like that
1152 2014-10-21 13:56:16 <earlz> yea
1153 2014-10-21 13:56:47 <earlz> If nothing else, I'm sure Toshi could handle it http://toshi.io
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1155 2014-10-21 13:56:56 <earlz> but it also takes 200G of diskspace heh
1156 2014-10-21 13:58:06 <Dr-G> do you have that thing running?
1157 2014-10-21 13:58:54 <wumpus> 20G of diskspace is peanuts
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1159 2014-10-21 13:59:27 <earlz> no.. you'd also have to sync it up without a bootstrap.dat
1160 2014-10-21 13:59:41 <earlz> If I had an extra harddrive, I'd pop an instance up but eh
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1180 2014-10-21 14:41:20 <sinetek> heya, i'd like to know, is bitcoin using wuille's fast secp256k1 code?
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1190 2014-10-21 14:51:23 <rdponticelli> sinetek: Not yet
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1200 2014-10-21 15:02:41 <helo> sinetek: afaik, bitcoin core will start out by using sipa's secp256k1 code for signing only initially
1201 2014-10-21 15:03:06 <sinetek> ok
1202 2014-10-21 15:03:17 <helo> (someone will correct me if i'm wrong)
1203 2014-10-21 15:03:40 <sinetek> I'm writing my own codebase, will check his lib out shortly
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1238 2014-10-21 16:18:01 <gmaxwell> sinetek: What purpose is your codebase for?
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1243 2014-10-21 16:23:14 <sinetek> gmaxwell: I have technical objections with the official one, and want to explore experimental things that I doubt would ever get pulled in the official codebase
1244 2014-10-21 16:23:23 <sinetek> namely no Boost and no OpenSSL
1245 2014-10-21 16:23:54 <sinetek> so I guess my goal is more portability
1246 2014-10-21 16:24:01 <sinetek> :-)
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1248 2014-10-21 16:24:43 <gmaxwell> sinetek: Thats regrettable.
1249 2014-10-21 16:24:48 <sinetek> how come?
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1251 2014-10-21 16:25:37 <sinetek> in what sense?
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1254 2014-10-21 16:26:23 <gmaxwell> sinetek: because bitcoin is a consensus system, in the consensus parts all full nodes must behave exactly the same or they'll fork relatively to each other, which can cause funds loss (for the users, or even third parties depending on how widespread the use is). It's insanely tricky to get exact agreement right, ... in some cases due to bugs Bitcoin Core hasn't even agreed with itself (same version). The history of full node ...
1255 2014-10-21 16:26:29 <gmaxwell> ... reimplementors is a history of implementations that fork over and over again.
1256 2014-10-21 16:27:02 <sinetek> gmaxwell: I'm fully aware of this, and something I am still debating
1257 2014-10-21 16:27:11 <sinetek> ie, making a new coin I guess?
1258 2014-10-21 16:27:19 <gmaxwell> As far as boost and openssl goes... we're almost out of openssl, but elimiating is probably unsafe due to the aformentioned reasons; which is why we haven't switched out of it in bitcoin core yet (and are moving for some block rules changes which will make it safer)
1259 2014-10-21 16:27:22 <sinetek> I would prefer that to accidentally forking BTC for sure.
1260 2014-10-21 16:28:11 <gmaxwell> And boost is also going away in Bitcoin, but more slowly as we'll need to switch to C++11 to finish it, which breaks compatibility with older compilers.
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1263 2014-10-21 16:29:46 <gmaxwell> sinetek: as far as a 'new coin', well thats pretty cruddy: You'll copy our design and go compete with us with it? To what end? Money is useful almost purely due to network effects, the more fragmented cryptocurrency is the less valuable it is for everyone. Why own foo coin if maybe barcoin will come out tomorrow and be the next big thing and make your foo coins lose their value?
1264 2014-10-21 16:30:02 <Arnavion> sinetek: How is not using boost going to make it "more portable" ?
1265 2014-10-21 16:30:12 <gmaxwell> Sounds like you already agree with the direction we have with respect to some of the dependencies. :)
1266 2014-10-21 16:30:16 <Arnavion> Alternatively, how is using boost make the current implementation less portable?
1267 2014-10-21 16:30:55 <Apocalyptic> Arnavion, every additional dependency damages portability
1268 2014-10-21 16:31:05 <sinetek> boost doesn't run on many platforms..
1269 2014-10-21 16:31:09 <sinetek> Windows RT for one
1270 2014-10-21 16:31:18 <Apocalyptic> as the dependency in question may not run/be available on your platform
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1272 2014-10-21 16:32:20 <Arnavion> That's just a matter of time
1273 2014-10-21 16:32:27 <Arnavion> Some of boost does already work on RT
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1276 2014-10-21 16:33:08 <gmaxwell> Our motivations for moving away from boost are a bit different, boost is a whole lot of code, some of it kinda skechy, which is really not created with the purpose of being used inside a consensus system. Most of the parts we use are also redundant with C++11 (though, those parts are also the more portable ones which probably already work fine on random platforms)
1277 2014-10-21 16:33:23 <Arnavion> Yes, that is a much more sensible reason
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1279 2014-10-21 16:33:53 <gmaxwell> What likely doesn't work is ASIO and threading stuff, which we don't have any plans to replace right now. (Though I'd personally like to not be using boost ASIO, it's impossible to debug).
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1282 2014-10-21 16:35:03 <gmaxwell> sinetek: in any case, if you're targeting windows RT you're presumably not targeting a bitcoin full node. You might want to consider using bitcoinj ... which apparently can be transpiled to run natively (hive wallet does this IIRC).
1283 2014-10-21 16:35:25 <gmaxwell> Running a novel non-full-node implementation has far fewer risks today.
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1285 2014-10-21 16:37:13 <sinetek> I'm making it in C99, no dependency on C++/Java
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1287 2014-10-21 16:38:17 <Apocalyptic> nice sinetek, I always wanted to see a pure C full node
1288 2014-10-21 16:38:27 <sinetek> well me too, that's why I started this
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1290 2014-10-21 16:38:47 <gmaxwell> There are several already.
1291 2014-10-21 16:39:01 <sinetek> sure, but none suit my purpose
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1293 2014-10-21 16:39:35 <Apocalyptic> gmaxwell, last time you linked me to one of jgarzik's work, but it came out that there was some dependencies
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1296 2014-10-21 16:39:49 <Apocalyptic> I don't know of any other
1297 2014-10-21 16:40:05 <gmaxwell> sure, glib, libevent, and openssl.
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1301 2014-10-21 16:41:16 <sinetek> also Java doesn't run on WinRT
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1303 2014-10-21 16:41:29 <sinetek> not that WinRT is my #1 target anyway
1304 2014-10-21 16:41:56 <hearn> gmaxwell: i experimented with transpilation but never finished the work needed
1305 2014-10-21 16:42:02 <hearn> gmaxwell: hive uses JNI
1306 2014-10-21 16:42:15 <gmaxwell> Ah, sad.
1307 2014-10-21 16:42:16 <hearn> sinetek: trying to write a bitcoin node in C is suicide. strongly advise you use a safe language.
1308 2014-10-21 16:42:33 <sinetek> heh
1309 2014-10-21 16:42:45 <gmaxwell> sinetek: I was talking about transpiled, source to source translation. (Sounds weird, sure,... but the HTML parser in firefox is done this way.)
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1312 2014-10-21 16:43:23 <gmaxwell> hearn: language safty is the least of the issues. Bitcoin isn't usually hard for language safty reasons compared to other network protocols. :)
1313 2014-10-21 16:43:29 <hearn> you can transpile bitcoinj and the supporting libraries to C++11, with three major caveats
1314 2014-10-21 16:43:33 <sinetek> I'm sure you can't transpile the java stdlib though
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1316 2014-10-21 16:43:39 <hearn> 1) you need to use the boehm gc, of course
1317 2014-10-21 16:43:57 <sinetek> sounds more complicated than actually writing the thing
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1319 2014-10-21 16:44:06 <hearn> 2) the runtime stubs need to be filled out, e.g. anywhere java has a "native" method that would call into the JVM, you get an empty C++11 method that you get to fill out. for things like threading, file io, etc, so bind it to whatever platform api you are using there
1320 2014-10-21 16:44:07 <coryfields_> sinetek: fyi, your goals are the same as mine, and i'm actively working to get them into core (and the changes have been welcomed so far)
1321 2014-10-21 16:44:15 <coryfields_> sinetek: so i'd suggest you help with that effort instead
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1323 2014-10-21 16:44:27 <gmaxwell> sinetek: hah. You're really underestimating how hard implementing a consnsitent full node is. :)
1324 2014-10-21 16:44:28 <hearn> 3) the generated code lacks array bounds checking, so is insecure
1325 2014-10-21 16:44:58 <hearn> oh, and of course, the generated code is huge. but that's because the libraries functionality is huge. a good dead code elimination pass in your linker is required ....
1326 2014-10-21 16:44:59 <gmaxwell> hearn: ah (3) is kind of an ouch for java code not written with this target in mind.
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1328 2014-10-21 16:45:09 <sinetek> coryfields_: Yes, with the caveat of removing the C++ dependency
1329 2014-10-21 16:45:28 <hearn> gmaxwell: yeah would need to upgrade the transpiler to add the bounds checks, i think
1330 2014-10-21 16:45:33 <coryfields_> sinetek: to what end?
1331 2014-10-21 16:45:57 <gmaxwell> sinetek: It's my hope that we get libconsensus to eventually be C only, and not the whole program... but thats a longer road.
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1333 2014-10-21 16:46:20 <gmaxwell> sinetek: also odd to hear you talk about C99 and windows RT... MSVC is not a C99 compiler, and only supports parts of C99. :(
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1335 2014-10-21 16:46:48 <gmaxwell> (MSVC is a C++ compiler and seems to only support C99 features so long as they're a strict subset of C++)
1336 2014-10-21 16:46:56 <coryfields_> winrt seems like a strange target to even consider in such a conversation
1337 2014-10-21 16:47:18 <coryfields_> not that the end-result shouldn't be portable, but still..
1338 2014-10-21 16:48:10 <Arnavion> gmaxwell: They did add a lot of C99-only features that aren't also in C++
1339 2014-10-21 16:48:22 <Arnavion> gmaxwell: Advertised as "enough to compile ffmpeg and other popular OSS"
1340 2014-10-21 16:48:52 <gmaxwell> since when? ffmpeg uses a crazy script to convert their c99 to c89+alloca. :)
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1342 2014-10-21 16:49:02 <sinetek> yeah some C features are ill supported :(
1343 2014-10-21 16:49:15 <sinetek> no compiler supports C11 at all afaik
1344 2014-10-21 16:49:41 <gmaxwell> sinetek: in any case, your help in improving bitcoin core's portability would be welcome (if you have the patience to go about it in the careful manner needed); otherwise, you have my condolences in advance for your many forking failures with your illadvised reimplementation of consensus rules. :)
1345 2014-10-21 16:50:08 <gmaxwell> sinetek: huh? https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html
1346 2014-10-21 16:50:18 <Arnavion> gmaxwell: Since VS 2013
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1348 2014-10-21 16:50:35 <Arnavion> >FFmpeg can be built with MSVC 2012 or earlier using a C99-to-C89 conversion utility and wrapper, or with MSVC 2013 and ICL natively.
1349 2014-10-21 16:50:41 <Arnavion> From https://www.ffmpeg.org/platform.html#Microsoft-Visual-C_002b_002b-or-Intel-C_002b_002b-Compiler-for-Windows
1350 2014-10-21 16:50:48 <sinetek> gmaxwell: yes? that's C++
1351 2014-10-21 16:51:11 <gmaxwell> sinetek: ah, sorry, misread.
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1354 2014-10-21 16:51:36 <gmaxwell> (I thought you were saying that in response to our comments that we planning on replacing boostisms with C++11)
1355 2014-10-21 16:52:09 <gmaxwell> Arnavion: Cool.
1356 2014-10-21 16:52:33 <hearn> sinetek: more generally, you are very likely to have buffer overflows or memory corruptions of various kinds of you do it in C
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1365 2014-10-21 17:01:39 <Apocalyptic> hearn, not if you are cautious
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1367 2014-10-21 17:03:16 <hearn> everyone who writes security sensitive software in C thinks they are cautious, and they all fail. just don't do it. it's not 1975, there's just no good justification for it these days
1368 2014-10-21 17:03:33 <sinetek> I have unit tests to check things, and valgrind does a good job at checking memory issues
1369 2014-10-21 17:03:43 <sinetek> heh, now that's just elitism
1370 2014-10-21 17:03:56 <sinetek> Git does a good job
1371 2014-10-21 17:04:03 <coryfields_> sinetek: sounds more like experience to me
1372 2014-10-21 17:04:05 <sinetek> anyway I didn't want to come in here to stirr crap
1373 2014-10-21 17:04:39 <Arnavion> I don't think a VCS meets the same bar for security that a bitcoin node does...
1374 2014-10-21 17:05:09 <Arnavion> although I guess there's some aspects of consensus in both
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1380 2014-10-21 17:11:46 <gmaxwell> sinetek: uhh. valgrind is only dynamic analysis. It's a great tool and I love it, but it's not very useful in an adversarial model unless you plan on always running in valgrind. :)
1381 2014-10-21 17:12:04 <hearn> gmaxwell: did you see Ironclad?
1382 2014-10-21 17:13:07 <hearn> very impressive project from MS Research. they have a type safe language that can be annotated with hints to theorem provers, and a Visual Studio extension that does proof checking in the background and does underlining of errors. then they used it to build - i shit you not - an entire minimal but verified OS with crypto code designed to run inside a TPM-proved, remotely attested secure VM
1383 2014-10-21 17:13:23 <gmaxwell> But I don't agree with mike's hostility towards C. It's certantly much harder and you must narrow your scope. Getting consensus rules right is much harder than writing memory safe small programs in C.
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1385 2014-10-21 17:13:32 <hearn> so you can send data to a remote computer and have a hardware proof that the program you think is running is running, and a mathematical proof that the program meets the specification you think it does
1386 2014-10-21 17:13:43 <hearn> it understand data leaks and can prove they don't exist, etc
1387 2014-10-21 17:13:47 <gmaxwell> hearn: crazy, no hadn't seen it. Too bad they recently laid of most people working on verifyable computing.
1388 2014-10-21 17:14:00 <gmaxwell> hearn: (I assume you've seen SeL4)
1389 2014-10-21 17:14:03 <hearn> https://research.microsoft.com/ironclad
1390 2014-10-21 17:14:05 <hearn> yes
1391 2014-10-21 17:14:10 <sinetek> why is getting consensus so hard btw? do you guys break API every week for fun?
1392 2014-10-21 17:14:13 <hearn> ironclad goes a lot further than SeL4, i think
1393 2014-10-21 17:14:20 <hearn> sinetek: lol, far from it .....
1394 2014-10-21 17:14:30 <hearn> sinetek: it's hard for the same reason emulating windows is hard
1395 2014-10-21 17:14:37 <gmaxwell> sinetek: it has nothing to do with APIs.
1396 2014-10-21 17:14:39 <sinetek> yeah but that's my point
1397 2014-10-21 17:14:50 <sinetek> it will never get better until there are other implementations
1398 2014-10-21 17:15:24 <hearn> there are other implementations, that's why we know it's really hard :)
1399 2014-10-21 17:15:52 <gmaxwell> sinetek: huh, it doesn't have anything to do with other implementations. There are plenty of other implementations, most of them have not noticed any of the difficult things to create consistency until they just failed in production. (in some cases over and over again)
1400 2014-10-21 17:16:40 <sinetek> I see.
1401 2014-10-21 17:16:59 <gmaxwell> sinetek: Bitcoin's consensus is a cryptosystem, with the same kinds of tricky requirements as are common in other cryptosystems. All the participants must compute most things exactly, never permitting something another node would forbid, never forbidding something another node would permit.
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1403 2014-10-21 17:17:27 <gmaxwell> And have to manage this against hostile input intentionally constructed to trigger inconsistency.
1404 2014-10-21 17:18:16 <gmaxwell> If the inputs were always tiny, you could exhaustively test... but none of the inputs are tiny, and many infolve cryptographic constructions so being able to reach all cases may require solving presumed hard (cryptographic) problems.
1405 2014-10-21 17:18:35 <hearn> it's got easier over time but is still not what i'd call easy
1406 2014-10-21 17:18:59 <sinetek> well, if the satoshi nodes don't agree with me, they'll reject my messages
1407 2014-10-21 17:19:11 <gmaxwell> And while juggling this you also need to not have any traditional software bugs. And worse, if there is a traditional software bug in the deployed systems, you have to emulate it or you'll become inconsistent.
1408 2014-10-21 17:19:17 <sinetek> if I'm not compliant and my node becomes dominant, then it's democratic change
1409 2014-10-21 17:19:20 <hearn> that said, don't underestimate the difficulty of writing secure C. spend enough time reading CVEs and see how many are memory corruptions in various ways
1410 2014-10-21 17:19:29 <hearn> e.g. look at WebKit. now there's a scary pile o bugs.
1411 2014-10-21 17:19:50 <hearn> sinetek: if you're not compliant and not dominant (most likely) your users can lose money
1412 2014-10-21 17:19:56 <sinetek> Sure.
1413 2014-10-21 17:20:21 <gmaxwell> sinetek: it's not a democratic change because the changes are unstable. E.g. imagine that you're 40%, and network will split into two blockchains which mutually reject each other and all coins can be spent on both sides independantly.
1414 2014-10-21 17:20:53 * hearn -> home
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1416 2014-10-21 17:21:05 <gmaxwell> and since it's a majority once the users of yours flip over they'll find they've been double spent and will lose money. (or conversely if your users were the slight majority; the other users would lose money).
1417 2014-10-21 17:21:30 <gmaxwell> Massive losses and disruptions in the system is not a change any person wants.
1418 2014-10-21 17:21:39 <sinetek> of course not
1419 2014-10-21 17:23:26 <sinetek> well that settles it, thank you for input
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1421 2014-10-21 17:23:52 <gmaxwell> hhearn: webkit is a LOT more code than a bitcoin node. :) I don't underestimate the difficulty, but it is more pratical for smallish programs.
1422 2014-10-21 17:24:08 <gmaxwell> (well I probably do underestmate it; but I already consider it very hard)
1423 2014-10-21 17:25:26 <sinetek> ill either go testnet or new coin
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1425 2014-10-21 17:26:04 <Apocalyptic> sinetek, testnet is always a good idea to start with
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1483 2014-10-21 18:15:53 <cornfeedhobo> interesting scroll back. i had just stumble on Jeff's C implementation week or so ago.
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1485 2014-10-21 18:16:13 <cornfeedhobo> s/stumble/stumbled/
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1554 2014-10-21 19:22:43 <flavien_> Hi
1555 2014-10-21 19:22:51 <flavien_> Got a quick question for who knows
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1557 2014-10-21 19:23:11 <flavien_> According to A. Antonopoulos' e-book
1558 2014-10-21 19:23:12 <sipa> flavien_: hard to know who knows, without knowing what you want to know
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1560 2014-10-21 19:23:23 <flavien_> Prior to version 0.9.2 of the Bitcoin Core client, Pay-to-Script-Hash was limited to the standard types of bitcoin transaction scripts, by the isStandard() function. That means that the redeem script presented in the spending transaction could only be one of the standard types: P2PK, P2PKH or Multi-Sig, excluding OP_RETURN and P2SH itself.
1561 2014-10-21 19:23:32 <flavien_> As of version 0.9.2 of the Bitcoin Core client, P2SH transactions can contain any valid script, making the P2SH standard much more flexible and allowing for experimentation with many novel and complex types of transactions.
1562 2014-10-21 19:23:37 <flavien_> Is that true?
1563 2014-10-21 19:23:42 <sipa> P2SH in P2SH is not possible
1564 2014-10-21 19:24:02 <sipa> and it's not _any_ valid script now, there are still a few limitations
1565 2014-10-21 19:24:13 <sipa> there are limits on size and signature check operations
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1567 2014-10-21 19:24:36 <flavien_> but can you have something like OP_NOP OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pushdata> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
1568 2014-10-21 19:24:40 <sipa> yes
1569 2014-10-21 19:24:49 <flavien_> cool
1570 2014-10-21 19:24:58 <sipa> inside the redeemscript
1571 2014-10-21 19:25:02 <flavien_> yes
1572 2014-10-21 19:25:07 <sipa> which is only revealed when spending
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1574 2014-10-21 19:26:12 <Taek> and then default miners will ignore the spend script if it's non-standard?
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1576 2014-10-21 19:27:00 <flavien_> I'm trying to create an "address derivation scheme", where you can calculate the derived address A* of an address A if you only know A, with the property that the key for A can also redeem A*
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1578 2014-10-21 19:27:34 <flavien_> but I don't want to be easy to stumble on accidentally like a basic P2SH of the P2PKH
1579 2014-10-21 19:28:10 <flavien_> so adding an OP_NOP (or <pushdata> OP_DROP) at the beginning creates a different address
1580 2014-10-21 19:28:33 <flavien_> anyway, thanks
1581 2014-10-21 19:28:35 <sipa> why would you do so?
1582 2014-10-21 19:28:58 <flavien_> it's a long story :)
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1585 2014-10-21 19:29:59 <flavien_> you know colored coins can be misspent if spent by a wallet that doesn't understand colored coins
1586 2014-10-21 19:30:20 <flavien_> so a workaround is to send colored outputs to a derived address, that only colored coins wallet know of
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1589 2014-10-21 19:32:13 <gavinandresen> flavien_: you should use OP_NOP <push pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG in the redeem script, thereâs no reason to put P2PKH inside P2SH
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1591 2014-10-21 19:32:37 <sipa> flavien_: you can use derived keys
1592 2014-10-21 19:33:12 <flavien_> gavinandresen: the problem is that when someone gives you their address to receive a payment, you don't know the pubkey, you only know the pubkey hash
1593 2014-10-21 19:33:40 <sipa> then don't use the same type address for colored transfers?
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1596 2014-10-21 19:33:58 <sipa> flavien_: the sender chooses a random nonce, and instead of using H(P) (with p the pubkey), you use H(P+nonce*G), and send the nonce to the receiver
1597 2014-10-21 19:34:21 <sipa> which is both anonymous, doesn't use any extra data, and avoids accidental misspending
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1601 2014-10-21 19:35:40 <flavien_> sipa: but we want the same user experience than for a normal payment, i.e. the receiver just gives his bitcoin address
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1604 2014-10-21 19:36:09 <sipa> flavien_: i think that's a horrible experience in the first place- humans shouldn't be copying cryptgraphic material
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1607 2014-10-21 19:36:35 <sipa> you have the chance in a new system to do things right from the start, without being burdened by legacy of an existing ecosystem
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1611 2014-10-21 19:38:47 <flavien_> sipa: well are kind of burdened by the legacy, we want backwards compatibility, i.e. you should be able to receive "uncolored" bitcoins the same way you receive colored coins
1612 2014-10-21 19:40:42 <flavien_> having the user use two different processes or addresses for receiving colored coins or bitcoin is not ideal, it may not seem like a big deal, but just using a different address for colored coins (like different version byte) would already cause massive amounts of confusion
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1706 2014-10-21 21:37:34 <coryfields_> sipa: ping
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1708 2014-10-21 21:37:51 <sipa> coryfields_: pong, but busy now
1709 2014-10-21 21:38:04 <coryfields_> np, ping when you can
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1753 2014-10-21 22:47:40 <flavien_> hey guys
1754 2014-10-21 22:48:51 <flavien_> so I tried a redeem script a little different (<pushdata> OP_DROP OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <pubKeyHash> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG) and this doesn't seem to be valid in mainnet (though it works in testnet)
1755 2014-10-21 22:50:03 mrkent has joined
1756 2014-10-21 22:50:18 <sipa> well, nobody is running the current master code yet
1757 2014-10-21 22:50:22 <sipa> as it's not released
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1760 2014-10-21 22:52:11 <flavien_> oh
1761 2014-10-21 22:52:22 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
1762 2014-10-21 22:52:24 <flavien_> that was my original quesion
1763 2014-10-21 22:52:48 <flavien_> Andreas' book claims it was released in 0.9.2
1764 2014-10-21 22:53:08 JTF195 has joined
1765 2014-10-21 22:53:19 <flavien_> "As of version 0.9.2 of the Bitcoin Core client, P2SH transactions can contain any valid script"
1766 2014-10-21 22:53:39 won9 has joined
1767 2014-10-21 22:53:40 <flavien_> so the version here is not correct?
1768 2014-10-21 22:55:15 <flavien_> sipa: so I presume it's for 0.10?
1769 2014-10-21 22:55:18 Lightsword_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1770 2014-10-21 22:55:50 <poutine> http://webbtc.com/tx/c8b86e0dcfe3a1dd48c99ee4b5ddf6172a552303e7f338d49124e060caf62d09 <- Would this be a standard transaction under these new p2sh rules?
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1774 2014-10-21 22:58:04 <sipa> flavien_: yes, they're in master; not in any release afaik
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1777 2014-10-21 22:58:32 <sipa> flavien_: maybe the book was written at the time of 0.9.1, and the author assumed the change would be in the next release?
1778 2014-10-21 22:59:02 nelisky has joined
1779 2014-10-21 22:59:13 <ahmed_> could anyone give me ideas as to why bitcoind just randomly shuts itself down?
1780 2014-10-21 22:59:34 Lightsword has quit (Client Quit)
1781 2014-10-21 22:59:37 <sipa> it would shut down when it runs out of disk space
1782 2014-10-21 22:59:46 <gmaxwell> flavien_: I don't think there was really any technical review of that book, you should consult the bitcoin developer guide on bitcoin.org. It (like that book) copied extensively from the bitcoin wiki but the developer guide has seen continual revision.
1783 2014-10-21 23:00:14 <gmaxwell> ahmed_: it shuts down if you get under 100MB free (IIRC), or if you run out memory it'll crash. see the last line in debug.log
1784 2014-10-21 23:00:39 <ahmed_> sipa: df -h
1785 2014-10-21 23:00:39 <ahmed_> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
1786 2014-10-21 23:00:39 <ahmed_> rootfs 493G 79G 389G 17% /
1787 2014-10-21 23:00:39 <ahmed_> udev 10M 0 10M 0% /dev
1788 2014-10-21 23:00:39 <ahmed_> tmpfs 377M 88K 377M 1% /run
1789 2014-10-21 23:00:39 <ahmed_> /dev/xvda 493G 79G 389G 17% /
1790 2014-10-21 23:00:39 <ahmed_> tmpfs 5.0M 0 5.0M 0% /run/lock
1791 2014-10-21 23:00:40 <ahmed_> tmpfs 753M 0 753M 0% /run/shm
1792 2014-10-21 23:00:41 <flavien_> sipa: well ok that makes sense
1793 2014-10-21 23:00:53 <sipa> ahmed_: please use a paste site for anything over 3 lines
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1795 2014-10-21 23:01:06 <ahmed_> sipa: okay sorry
1796 2014-10-21 23:01:13 <gmaxwell> "I have 300 GB free" would have sufficed. :P
1797 2014-10-21 23:01:19 hearn has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1798 2014-10-21 23:01:21 <ahmed_> irc client was supposed to auto pastebin it, no idea why it didnt
1799 2014-10-21 23:01:29 <sipa> ahmed_: it's ok
1800 2014-10-21 23:01:43 <sipa> flavien_: and yes, indeed, i've heard several comments about technical mistakes in that book
1801 2014-10-21 23:01:49 <sipa> i haven't read it myself
1802 2014-10-21 23:02:20 <ahmed_> gmaxwell: how do u tell?
1803 2014-10-21 23:02:34 <ahmed_> the last line shows this: 2014-10-21 17:48:44 CreateNewBlock(): total size 49684
1804 2014-10-21 23:02:34 <ahmed_> 2014-10-21 19:55:18
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1806 2014-10-21 23:02:51 <sipa> ahmed_: how much free memory do yo uhave?
1807 2014-10-21 23:02:57 <gmaxwell> well you want the last lines before it went down. or right before it started again. When it starts it adds blank lines and a version message.
1808 2014-10-21 23:03:48 <ahmed_> gmaxwell: the last lines between it going down are those i pasted, and then a number of blank lines
1809 2014-10-21 23:04:10 <sipa> looks like a crash
1810 2014-10-21 23:04:19 <sipa> out of memory is one reason for that
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1812 2014-10-21 23:04:44 <ahmed_> ahh shit. that explains it. 19MB free...
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1814 2014-10-21 23:05:17 <gmaxwell> you may be misreading your free memory
1815 2014-10-21 23:05:17 <ahmed_> thanks sipa and gmaxwell!
1816 2014-10-21 23:05:24 <gmaxwell> pastebin the output of free -m
1817 2014-10-21 23:05:37 <ahmed_> oh
1818 2014-10-21 23:05:58 <gmaxwell> it's a bit tricky to read
1819 2014-10-21 23:05:59 <ahmed_> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/l2SE2y8q
1820 2014-10-21 23:06:16 <sipa> error
1821 2014-10-21 23:06:18 <gmaxwell> okay, you have 254 free.. which isn't much.
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1824 2014-10-21 23:06:48 <gmaxwell> whats using all that memory? you're mining?
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1826 2014-10-21 23:07:14 <ahmed_> nope, got a number of other coind's running on there too (mainly all the merged mined coins)
1827 2014-10-21 23:07:56 <gmaxwell> hm. man are you asking us for support for some altcoin? a createnewblock in bitcoin should not be that small. There are many memory leaks and such that were fixed in bitcoin long ago that varrious altcoins are still suffering from.
1828 2014-10-21 23:08:08 <ahmed_> gmaxwell: nope this is for bitcoin
1829 2014-10-21 23:09:08 <ahmed_> the altcoins are shit anyways no doubt about it. but theyve al stayed alive besides bitcoind
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1831 2014-10-21 23:09:46 <ahmed_> oh wait a sec
1832 2014-10-21 23:09:55 <gmaxwell> in any case, if you run out of memory the kernel will randomly kill something go look in dmesg and/or /var/log/message
1833 2014-10-21 23:09:55 <ahmed_> bitcoind: main.cpp:1761: bool ConnectBlock(CBlock&, CValidationState&, CBlockIndex*, CCoinsViewCache&, bool): Assertion `hashPrevBlock == view.GetBestBlock()' failed.
1834 2014-10-21 23:10:06 <ahmed_> ^ i got that then it shut off just now
1835 2014-10-21 23:10:23 <sipa> what code version?
1836 2014-10-21 23:11:35 <ahmed_> 0.8.3
1837 2014-10-21 23:11:44 <ahmed_> *0.9.3
1838 2014-10-21 23:15:27 <ahmed_> ill try setting up a swap file temporarily and see if i get the same issue.
1839 2014-10-21 23:15:58 <sipa> this doesn't look like OOM
1840 2014-10-21 23:16:09 <ahmed_> oom?
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1843 2014-10-21 23:16:14 <sipa> out of memory
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1845 2014-10-21 23:16:55 <gmaxwell> that assert is not likely a oom.
1846 2014-10-21 23:19:10 <ahmed_> anways added a 2gb swap just incase
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1856 2014-10-21 23:25:44 <ahmed_> its not died yet. will tell you guys if it it does or doesnt later
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1859 2014-10-21 23:31:48 <petertodd> flavien_: ha, I think you just re-invented the exact same issue re: color coin addresses that we had :)
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1861 2014-10-21 23:32:13 <petertodd> flavien_: same solution too :)
1862 2014-10-21 23:32:46 <petertodd> flavien_: I'd wrap P2PKH in P2SH myself; pity OP_EVAL was ditched; much superior solution overall
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1871 2014-10-21 23:48:10 * Luke-Jr wonders if anyone has implemented p2sh change yet
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1881 2014-10-21 23:58:26 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: ?
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1883 2014-10-21 23:58:47 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: yeah, I guess your multisig wallet must - I meant BCCore mainly though