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  30 2014-10-23 00:26:22 <dcousens> is there a shortened name for a 'Satoshi' the unit?
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  32 2014-10-23 00:26:43 <dcousens> (in popular usage anyway)
  33 2014-10-23 00:27:03 <justanotheruser> dcousens: #bitcoin
  34 2014-10-23 00:27:24 <dcousens> justanotheruser: well, true, but, it was related to some dev haha.. anyway...
  35 2014-10-23 00:28:05 <dcousens> justanotheruser: found https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units
  36 2014-10-23 00:28:20 <justanotheruser> good, that should have your answer
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 124 2014-10-23 02:02:20 <jeremyrubin> Hmm anyone know of any interesting bitcoin related security proposals? Looking for a class project.
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 189 2014-10-23 02:35:50 <andytoshi> jeremyrubin: ask in #bitcoin-wizards
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 293 2014-10-23 04:32:22 <ruste> Anyone here?
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 328 2014-10-23 05:12:07 <Adlai> ruste: yes, that happens very frequently
 329 2014-10-23 05:12:48 <ruste> Adlai: Any idea how frequently? Rough estimate?
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 434 2014-10-23 06:26:50 <McKayDavis> I'm having no luck getting the -rpcconnect= option to bitcoind to take a netmask/CIDR notation to allow a range of IP addresses.
 435 2014-10-23 06:27:16 <McKayDavis> most of the documentation is outdated and claims that wildcards are supported (they are not)
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 470 2014-10-23 07:05:46 <wumpus> McKayDavis: you're using master?
 471 2014-10-23 07:06:03 <wumpus> McKayDavis: can you paste the arguments that you're giving?
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 486 2014-10-23 07:23:57 <McKayDavis> wumpus: sorry for the delay, I was trying -rpcallowip=172.17.0.0/16 and -rpcallowip=172.17.0.0/255.255.0.0 (inside a docker container)
 487 2014-10-23 07:24:19 <wumpus> so you're using master?
 488 2014-10-23 07:24:23 <McKayDavis> yes
 489 2014-10-23 07:24:37 <wumpus> then those should work :/
 490 2014-10-23 07:24:59 <wumpus> anything related to it in debug.log?
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 492 2014-10-23 07:25:56 <McKayDavis> I switched over to 0.0.0.0/0 and everything started working, lemme switch back, restart and check
 493 2014-10-23 07:29:28 <McKayDavis> wumpus: aye,aye,aye  it works now.  I must have had a typo somewhere in my scripts....argh.
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 495 2014-10-23 07:29:49 <wumpus> McKayDavis: ok, thanks for testing it again, I was worried there for a bit
 496 2014-10-23 07:30:35 <McKayDavis> wumpus: but I am also pretty sure that getbalance on a watch only address is incorrect...
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 498 2014-10-23 07:31:22 <wumpus> I guess we should add an explanation  of netmasks and how to use them to the 0.10 release notes
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 502 2014-10-23 07:32:21 <wumpus> you do provide true for the includeWatchonly flag?
 503 2014-10-23 07:33:13 <McKayDavis> yep, lemme  try to track down a repro
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 508 2014-10-23 07:40:41 <zerocool`> Will Greg and Pieter be stepping down as core maintainers now that they are working for a for-profit that is directly competing with the main chain?
 509 2014-10-23 07:40:48 <zerocool`> Is this on topic?
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 511 2014-10-23 07:41:41 <McKayDavis> wumpus: ...still waiting for the imoprtaddress to finish rescan
 512 2014-10-23 07:42:57 <wumpus> zerocool`: no, the other way around, hopefully they will have more time to be core maintainers now
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 515 2014-10-23 07:43:21 <zerocool`> wumpus:  conflict of interest is alright?
 516 2014-10-23 07:43:31 <phantomcircuit> lol @ u
 517 2014-10-23 07:43:41 <wumpus> which conflict of interest? everyone can hire developers to work on bitcoin core, it's an open source project
 518 2014-10-23 07:43:52 <zerocool`> if everyone pegs their BTC to blockstream chain, Austin Hill has a dictatorship on Bitcoin development
 519 2014-10-23 07:43:56 <wumpus> you know how many Intel people are working on Linux?
 520 2014-10-23 07:43:57 <McKayDavis> is it possible to get the % complete of a rescan via rpc?
 521 2014-10-23 07:43:58 mmozeiko has joined
 522 2014-10-23 07:44:10 <zerocool`> wumpus: Would it be alright if Gavin was working for Ethereum?
 523 2014-10-23 07:44:30 <wumpus> zerocool`: sure, he can work for whoever he wants
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 525 2014-10-23 07:44:48 <wumpus> McKayDavis: I don't think so
 526 2014-10-23 07:44:53 <zerocool`> wumpus:  Not if he wants to keep his job as an unbiased person
 527 2014-10-23 07:45:14 <wumpus> zerocool`: so you somehow think he's some kind of unbiased angel right now?
 528 2014-10-23 07:45:26 <phantomcircuit> if you really think any of them are going to be doing anything differently
 529 2014-10-23 07:45:28 <phantomcircuit> you're mistaken
 530 2014-10-23 07:45:38 <zerocool`> wumpus: Let me rephrase: you see no conflict of interest in Core maintainers working on creating a competitor to bitcoin?
 531 2014-10-23 07:45:43 <phantomcircuit> this is smart people being funded to do what they wanted to do already
 532 2014-10-23 07:46:16 <zerocool`> phantoncircuit:  which is a very bad thing.  they're incentivized to reject PR's that would make bitcoin better then the sidechain
 533 2014-10-23 07:46:27 <phantomcircuit> zerocool`, you're an idiot
 534 2014-10-23 07:46:31 <wumpus> zerocool`: other "competitors" to bitcoin, such as altcoins, don't contribute anything back
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 536 2014-10-23 07:46:43 <b-itcoinssg> wumpus: has any one suggested a bitcoin-suite of sorts? As in an open source software bundle that enables anyone with a full node to have a blockchain explorer. meta data viewer, miner stats right on their computer and without having to go to an external website like blockchain.info or cryptograffiiti etc..
 537 2014-10-23 07:46:49 <wumpus> everyone contributing code to bitcoin core is welcome, no matter who you work for, we'll judge mergability based on merits.
 538 2014-10-23 07:46:57 <zerocool`> phantoncircuit: please dont name-call. this is not a joke
 539 2014-10-23 07:47:37 <wumpus> b-itcoinssg: yes, has been suggested, we're still waiting for someone to build it though :)
 540 2014-10-23 07:47:44 <McKayDavis> wumpus: how does bitcoin-qt get the progress info from bitcoind then?
 541 2014-10-23 07:47:54 <wumpus> McKayDavis: a signal
 542 2014-10-23 07:48:21 <zerocool`> wumpus:  i dont know, i just saw reddit and people are concerned about a serious conflict of interest.  The problem is Greg and Pieter being maintainers.  They should step down, and continue to contribute whatever they want.  Unbiased people should take their place
 543 2014-10-23 07:48:35 weilu_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 544 2014-10-23 07:49:06 <b-itcoinssg> wumpus: oh great, I think I might have something, atleast as a proof of concept. I'll try to post something on github when it's at a reasonble state. Thanks for the info!
 545 2014-10-23 07:49:14 <zerocool`> wumpus:  Just wondering, who will have commit access to Blockstream sidechain if its super succesful and everyone pegs their BTC there?
 546 2014-10-23 07:49:17 <McKayDavis> b-itcoinssg: like http://insight.is from bitpay?
 547 2014-10-23 07:49:19 <wumpus> be careful what you wish for... them 'stepping down' would be extremely bad for the project
 548 2014-10-23 07:49:39 <phantomcircuit> zerocool`, sidechains are not competition for bitcoin
 549 2014-10-23 07:49:48 <zerocool`> wumpus:  i'd rather take that risk then have the conflict of interest which is undeniable
 550 2014-10-23 07:50:04 <phantomcircuit> then you're terrible at analyzing risk
 551 2014-10-23 07:50:07 <zerocool`> phantomcircuit:  think about what you just said for a moment.
 552 2014-10-23 07:50:18 <wumpus> zerocool`: ok, I'm tired of this, you seem to be only interested in stirring here
 553 2014-10-23 07:50:23 <b-itcoinssg> McKayDavis: yes! that is a part of it, but I want some kind of one command line installation and configuration to incentive and decentralize informational reliance for anyone running a full node
 554 2014-10-23 07:50:30 <phantomcircuit> zerocool`, if anything sidechains will significantly benefit bitcoin
 555 2014-10-23 07:50:31 <zerocool`> phantomcircuit:  simple thought experiment. What happens if everyone pegs their BTC to blockstream sidechain?
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 557 2014-10-23 07:51:06 <zerocool`> phantomcircuit:  the answer is bitcoin main chain dies. (incase you're struggling with that)
 558 2014-10-23 07:51:09 <phantomcircuit> nothing
 559 2014-10-23 07:51:10 <wumpus> McKayDavis: CWallet has a boost::signals2::signal<void (const std::string &title, int nProgress)> ShowProgress signal; nothing in RPC subscribes to it 
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 561 2014-10-23 07:51:55 <zerocool`> phantomcircuit:  do you think it would be a positive thing if all BTC were pegged to blockstream sidechain, and development of that was controlled by a for profit company who can be compelled by regulators to make code changes?
 562 2014-10-23 07:51:57 <McKayDavis> b-itcoinssg: I'd be interested in contributing.  I've had a similar notion myself..
 563 2014-10-23 07:52:06 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, im not really comfortable with signals for important wallet stuff
 564 2014-10-23 07:52:09 <wumpus> McKayDavis: there's a pull request for a 'warmup mode' which reports progress during startup through RPC, but nothing about rescan
 565 2014-10-23 07:52:12 <phantomcircuit> at least not without a lot of testing
 566 2014-10-23 07:52:21 <b-itcoinssg> McKayDavis: that's great to hear, are you on github?
 567 2014-10-23 07:52:21 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: this is not 'important wallet stuff' but just a progress indicator
 568 2014-10-23 07:52:28 <McKayDavis> wumpus: ah, very nice. thanks for the info
 569 2014-10-23 07:52:59 <McKayDavis> b-ticoinssg: github.com/McKayDavis (nothing much public there at the moment)
 570 2014-10-23 07:53:00 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: also we've used signals for important stuff in bitcoin core for years, so you could say it's tested alright 
 571 2014-10-23 07:53:22 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: it's just a fancy dispatch mechanism nothing more
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 573 2014-10-23 07:53:42 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: it's a pity C++ doesn't have something like it built in like C#
 574 2014-10-23 07:53:46 <b-itcoinssg> McKayDavis:that's ok, atleast I can ping you to check out the repo once I have it out, I'll start from a ideation perpective, so you can contribute from the get go.
 575 2014-10-23 07:53:52 <zerocool`> phantomcircuit:  You should proabbly prepare for community backlash on the reddit AMA tomorrow regarding Greg and Pieter's conflict of interest
 576 2014-10-23 07:54:17 <zerocool`> well, #blockstream-dev should at least
 577 2014-10-23 07:54:29 papa2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 578 2014-10-23 07:55:02 <zerocool`> And frankly, the Bitcoin Foundation probably won't be happy with it either (not like they have any power to do anything except write a blog post about their concerns)
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 581 2014-10-23 07:56:11 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, iirc nearly all of the wallet functions recheck a bunch of state
 582 2014-10-23 07:56:47 <wumpus> "Unbiased people should take their place" so where do you think you can find all these cryptographically educated, experienced c++ programmers, willing to work on an experimental project like bitcoin? without being paid by an organization that could have 'an conflict of interest' of course...
 583 2014-10-23 07:57:00 <phantomcircuit> zerocool`, you realize sipa and gmaxwell do an enormous amount of the work on bitcoin core
 584 2014-10-23 07:57:15 <wumpus> please be realistic, or you'll sink the ship out of ideological purity?
 585 2014-10-23 07:57:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa has probably written more code than anybody else at this point
 586 2014-10-23 07:58:06 <Luke-Jr> this is more of a #bitcoin topic IMO
 587 2014-10-23 07:58:09 zerocool` has quit (Quit: Don't be square | www.blackcoinsquare.org | Squares everywhere.)
 588 2014-10-23 07:58:36 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: right... I say this one last time: Bitcoin Core is just like Linux. Any company can have devs working on it, more participation and contributions are better not worse
 589 2014-10-23 07:58:56 <McKayDavis> zerocool`: what exactly do you envision a worst case scenario as being?  sipa and gmaxwell somehow sabotaging the core?  the worst that could happen imo is they stop working on the project to focus on sidechains
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 591 2014-10-23 07:59:11 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: not so much more code, but certainly the most important code
 592 2014-10-23 08:00:48 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, dollars to donuts he's mad because this makes his altcoin of choice worthless
 593 2014-10-23 08:00:56 <phantomcircuit> as you can see from his quit message
 594 2014-10-23 08:00:59 <McKayDavis> wumpus: okay, my simple case to repro the watch only getbalance error didn't repro.  I had a more complex wallet.dat earlier that will take me some time to whittle down to a simple case.
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 596 2014-10-23 08:01:38 <wumpus> McKayDavis: well if you find out specifics please open an issue on github, this is bound to get lost in the IRC crazyness otherwise
 597 2014-10-23 08:01:49 <McKayDavis> will do
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 604 2014-10-23 08:04:24 <McKayDavis> okay,next question while the experts are online.  why does listtransactions only list category: "receive" txns and not sent?
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 606 2014-10-23 08:04:43 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, it does
 607 2014-10-23 08:05:02 <McKayDavis> is that a statement or question?
 608 2014-10-23 08:05:30 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: it shows both
 609 2014-10-23 08:06:02 <McKayDavis> not in my build from master today with a single imported watch address.
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 612 2014-10-23 08:06:55 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: well, addresses only ever receive, not send..
 613 2014-10-23 08:06:59 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, imported will only show receive
 614 2014-10-23 08:07:02 <Luke-Jr> so that's probably why
 615 2014-10-23 08:07:02 <phantomcircuit> adresses do not send
 616 2014-10-23 08:07:14 <SomeoneWeird> inb4 'wut'
 617 2014-10-23 08:07:30 <McKayDavis> ah
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 621 2014-10-23 08:08:22 <phantomcircuit> nah i think he gets it
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 623 2014-10-23 08:08:43 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: bitcoind *does* assume you're trying to do a watch-only-wallet with importaddress though, and *will* add the 'send' transactions for that wallet if you add all its addresses - but it has no way to guess the labels for them
 624 2014-10-23 08:08:56 <Luke-Jr> so if you drop the 'label' part of listtransactions, you'll see them
 625 2014-10-23 08:09:03 <Luke-Jr> but this only works if you import every address in the wallet
 626 2014-10-23 08:09:16 <zerocool``> wumpus:  Here's what bothers me.  Suppose that greg and pieter are financially motivated by Blockstream's business model to have as many BTC pegged to their sidechain as possible, so they implement a bunch of great features and 51% of BTC moves over to their chain.  They can keep this competitive edge by ensuring their sidechain has more features t
 627 2014-10-23 08:09:16 <zerocool``> hen Bitcoin.  When I issue a PR to merge sidechain features into Bitcoin Core, they are either financially motivated on their own, or CEO Austin Hill will simply tell them not to ACK.
 628 2014-10-23 08:09:22 <Luke-Jr> zerocool``: #bitcoin
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 631 2014-10-23 08:10:12 <zerocool``> wumpus: and i will move this to #bitcoin if you think its off topic, but this is a serious concern.  (ignoring luke-jr who has already shown he wants a dictatorship on devleopment with his Gentoo fiasco)
 632 2014-10-23 08:10:27 <gwillen> zerocool``: #bitcoin, please
 633 2014-10-23 08:10:46 <wumpus> zerocool``: well that's exactly the idea; to keep the main blockhchain a stable place, while experiemental features (which may be dangerous) are introduced in sidechains first
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 635 2014-10-23 08:11:17 <wumpus> zerocool``: as you can move your bitcoins to sidechains, and back, they're not competitors but part of the same system
 636 2014-10-23 08:11:18 <zerocool``> wumpus:  I agree with you.  But do you see where that leads?
 637 2014-10-23 08:11:51 <zerocool``> wumpus:  of course, but nobody will want to move back to bitcoin core f the sidechain is significantly better.
 638 2014-10-23 08:12:02 <wumpus> zerocool``: no, that's impossible to say yet, but it allows much-demanded experimentation that is impossible now
 639 2014-10-23 08:12:29 t7 has joined
 640 2014-10-23 08:12:32 <wumpus> zerocool``: better is not a one-dimensional property, the main chain may be seen as 'safest'
 641 2014-10-23 08:13:45 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, dont bother, he's just a scamcoin shill
 642 2014-10-23 08:14:17 zerocool`` has quit (Quit: Don't be square | www.blackcoinsquare.org | Squares everywhere.)
 643 2014-10-23 08:14:26 papa2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 644 2014-10-23 08:14:33 <phantomcircuit> see
 645 2014-10-23 08:14:35 <Luke-Jr> are those ragequits, I wonder?
 646 2014-10-23 08:14:48 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, he's spamming the quit message
 647 2014-10-23 08:14:53 <McKayDavis> Luke-Jr: so you're saying that if the receiving address is in the wallet then listtransactions will list it for the 'sending' address?
 648 2014-10-23 08:15:51 rubensayshi has joined
 649 2014-10-23 08:16:30 <McKayDavis> i.e. the transactions listed in listtransactions will also include input transactions to destinations if in the wallet?
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 655 2014-10-23 08:20:17 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: there is no sending address. if you fail to add every address in the wallet in question, you get "random sends"
 656 2014-10-23 08:21:03 zerocool` has joined
 657 2014-10-23 08:21:41 <zerocool`> wumpus: I think side-chains are great.  Its a perfect way to kill altcoins.  A lot of people are very concerned with Greg and Pieter having commit access to Bitcoin Core while being fiancnially incentivized to reject pull requests that would merge Blockstream side-chain features directly into Bitcoin Core
 658 2014-10-23 08:22:03 papa2 has joined
 659 2014-10-23 08:22:06 <McKayDavis> I understand there is no sending address -- what's the correct terminology? input script?
 660 2014-10-23 08:22:15 <McKayDavis> utxo?
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 662 2014-10-23 08:22:50 <wumpus> zerocool`: they don't have any incentive to sabotage bitcoin core, if they had they wouldn't be so transparent about it would they?
 663 2014-10-23 08:23:19 <wumpus> zerocool`: anyhow, as said,I'm tired of this, I don't have time to partake in moral panics
 664 2014-10-23 08:24:56 papa3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 665 2014-10-23 08:25:03 <zerocool`> wumpus:  unfortunately politics plays a role in every open-source project, it just comes with the territory.  I'd rather spend time coding as well. But I'm very concerned.  And nobody has explained why they are alright with the conflict of interest.  Deciding who has commit access on github is a serious thing.  This is a serious concern
 666 2014-10-23 08:25:04 <wumpus> one day it's about the bitcoin foundation 'monopolizing' bitcoin development, then other companies finally start to contribute and it's their fault, can't you people work on something constructive?
 667 2014-10-23 08:25:57 CheckDavid has joined
 668 2014-10-23 08:26:02 <wumpus> you know there is this nice 'fork' button on github that gives you an exact copy of the repository (plus history) with exactly the same admin rights that I have?
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 671 2014-10-23 08:26:57 <rubensayshi> zerocool`, look at how much discussion has gone into previous PRs, even small ones, do you really think a big one would be merged in without anyone caring
 672 2014-10-23 08:27:04 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, dont bother, he's just a scamcoin shill
 673 2014-10-23 08:27:10 <Luke-Jr> can we keep it on #bitcoin?
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 678 2014-10-23 08:27:29 <gwillen> yeah, please do take it to #bitcoin, wumpus, zerocool`
 679 2014-10-23 08:27:30 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: sorry... I'm just so tired of this shit :/
 680 2014-10-23 08:27:36 <rubensayshi> plus we have this beautiful consensus mechanism in the protocol, if people really don't want it they just don't install
 681 2014-10-23 08:28:24 indy has joined
 682 2014-10-23 08:28:27 <zerocool`> phantomciruit: i've had more then one commit merged to bitcoin core. i'm not a troll, and hate altcoins.  Sidechains and treechains are the future.  My only concern is the conflict of interest
 683 2014-10-23 08:28:57 <phantomcircuit> zerocool`, your quit message is a black coin site
 684 2014-10-23 08:29:05 <phantomcircuit> nice try
 685 2014-10-23 08:29:06 <wumpus> but yes, take this to #bitcoin
 686 2014-10-23 08:29:26 <gwillen> zerocool`: #bitcoin, please (and I'd be curious to see a pointer to your merged commit(s).)
 687 2014-10-23 08:30:33 Pippp has joined
 688 2014-10-23 08:30:47 <Pippp> anyone familiar with pyrpcwallet?
 689 2014-10-23 08:31:07 <zerocool`> gwillen: i'm using tor and an alias for political reasons right now
 690 2014-10-23 08:31:26 papa3 has joined
 691 2014-10-23 08:31:37 <zerocool`> phantomcircuit: i'm using blkfeed:7778 because it works with tor
 692 2014-10-23 08:31:58 <wumpus> zerocool`: #bitcoin
 693 2014-10-23 08:32:08 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: phantomcircuit just +q'd him there :/
 694 2014-10-23 08:32:20 <zerocool`> I couldn't care less about blackcoin -- sorry about the quit message, if theres a better option let me know.  I'll move this to #bitcoin at the request of wumpus. Thanks for listening to the concern
 695 2014-10-23 08:32:45 <wumpus> Pippp: no, hadn't heard if it yet, what is it, an SPV wallet?
 696 2014-10-23 08:32:48 <zerocool`> well, if phantomcircuit would -q me, I could move it there.
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 698 2014-10-23 08:33:58 <Pippp> python for bitcoin
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 702 2014-10-23 08:35:26 <wumpus> Pippp: yes, it claims to be a wallet that offers a bitcoind-compatible RPC interface, but it doesn't mention how it works (except "no need to download the blockchain" which could imply SPV, but also something much worse like relying on a central service)
 703 2014-10-23 08:35:59 timothy has joined
 704 2014-10-23 08:36:02 <Pippp> it uses pycoin package
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 706 2014-10-23 08:36:37 <Pippp> you can just hit blockchain.info
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 709 2014-10-23 08:39:35 <SomeoneWeird> :X
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 714 2014-10-23 08:46:14 <McKayDavis> is it possible to remove a watch only address from the wallet? pywallet.py does not support watch addresses (yet)
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 716 2014-10-23 08:48:04 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: I don't believe so
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 722 2014-10-23 08:52:18 <McKayDavis> just to confirm before I file an issue w/ getbalance on github: getbalance for a watch only address should return the sum of all utxos correct? e.g. it should be equivalent to the 'Final Balance' field on blockchain.info?
 723 2014-10-23 08:54:22 weilu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 724 2014-10-23 08:54:27 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, no
 725 2014-10-23 08:54:44 <phantomcircuit> im not sure that getbalance is even meaningful for a wallet with a watch only address
 726 2014-10-23 08:54:47 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: the 'Final Balance' field on blockchain.info is bogus
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 728 2014-10-23 08:55:12 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: sum of all utxos is only something with meaning for a wallet, not an address
 729 2014-10-23 08:55:35 <Luke-Jr> also, getbalance doesn't take an address as an option, it takes an account - which is a feature that's going away
 730 2014-10-23 08:55:38 <phantomcircuit> and actually
 731 2014-10-23 08:55:55 <phantomcircuit> getbalance should always return 0 for wallets with only watch addresses
 732 2014-10-23 08:55:59 <phantomcircuit> since it cant spend them
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 734 2014-10-23 08:57:19 <McKayDavis> sorry, yes I meant account.
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 736 2014-10-23 08:57:33 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: accounts don't make sense for watch-only wallets, because you're missing info
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 738 2014-10-23 08:58:41 <McKayDavis> okay, then what is the proper way to get the total amount available for spending from a watch only address.
 739 2014-10-23 08:59:05 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, that isn't an operation that makes sense
 740 2014-10-23 08:59:33 <McKayDavis> luke-jr: importaddress with a public address also takes an account parameter
 741 2014-10-23 09:00:46 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: yes, that account is credited for receipt
 742 2014-10-23 09:00:58 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: you can't spend from an address.
 743 2014-10-23 09:01:13 <Luke-Jr> addresses only receive, they don't send
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 745 2014-10-23 09:02:02 <McKayDavis> someone else (another node say) can sign a script sending the coins with the private key associated with that address...
 746 2014-10-23 09:02:25 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, it's bad to think of it that way
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 750 2014-10-23 09:05:50 <McKayDavis> why? is there a document that explains a better way to view this?
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 754 2014-10-23 09:07:02 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, transactions have outputs
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 756 2014-10-23 09:07:20 <phantomcircuit> a wallets balance is the set of unspent transaction outputs which the wallet can spend
 757 2014-10-23 09:07:33 <phantomcircuit> regardless of what type of script is needed to spend them
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 760 2014-10-23 09:11:00 <McKayDavis> I do understand that part, really.  but I'm missing why it's 'bad' to view a balance of an address as the sum of UTXO's held by that address.
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 763 2014-10-23 09:11:56 <Luke-Jr> addresses don't have balances.
 764 2014-10-23 09:12:01 <Luke-Jr> the private key does, but that's not the address.
 765 2014-10-23 09:12:02 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, because it's only one type of transaction script
 766 2014-10-23 09:12:08 <Luke-Jr> the address is an opaque token for receiving
 767 2014-10-23 09:12:08 <McKayDavis> p2sh and multi-sig? is that the wrench in my view?
 768 2014-10-23 09:12:11 <phantomcircuit> also what Luke-Jr said
 769 2014-10-23 09:12:27 <phantomcircuit> a watch only wallet cant spend the coins
 770 2014-10-23 09:12:27 <Luke-Jr> and an address is only supposed to be used once ever
 771 2014-10-23 09:12:30 <phantomcircuit> so it has zero balance
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 778 2014-10-23 09:19:34 <McKayDavis> re: "the address is an opaque token for receiving" -- sure, but there's only one public address per private key right?  also, addresses are 'supposed' to be used once, but that's not true in practice.
 779 2014-10-23 09:20:00 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, technically there are 2
 780 2014-10-23 09:20:18 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: never design stuff contrary to what is supported/expected please :/
 781 2014-10-23 09:21:31 <Jouke> McKayDavis: doesn't make it right.
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 784 2014-10-23 09:22:27 <McKayDavis> I cannot prevent the actions of others, I'm just trying to get a balance for an address I don't have the keys for, whether it has 1,2, or n txns associated with it.
 785 2014-10-23 09:23:33 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: it doesn't make sense to do that.
 786 2014-10-23 09:23:45 <McKayDavis> phantomcircuit: ah, 2 eh?
 787 2014-10-23 09:24:08 <phantomcircuit> compressed and uncompressed
 788 2014-10-23 09:24:10 <Luke-Jr> there is no reason for us to support showing the balance of a private key
 789 2014-10-23 09:24:46 <McKayDavis> okay, starting to understand.... been ingrained to look at it the other way for so long.
 790 2014-10-23 09:24:58 <phantomcircuit> oh actually
 791 2014-10-23 09:25:00 <phantomcircuit> there are more
 792 2014-10-23 09:25:11 <phantomcircuit> the address is the hash of the ASN.1 representation of the public key
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 794 2014-10-23 09:25:23 <phantomcircuit> but you can pad the public key with zeros and get a new address
 795 2014-10-23 09:25:33 <phantomcircuit> so there are like thousands per private key
 796 2014-10-23 09:25:38 <phantomcircuit> but like
 797 2014-10-23 09:25:40 <phantomcircuit> dont do that
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 799 2014-10-23 09:26:51 <Luke-Jr> lol
 800 2014-10-23 09:27:13 <McKayDavis> so, if someone underpays an an address for an invoice, the remaining debt needs to be sent to another address?
 801 2014-10-23 09:27:32 <phantomcircuit> McKayDavis, that would be optimal
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 803 2014-10-23 09:29:05 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: yes, ideally. the payment protocol doesn't really allow undeypayment
 804 2014-10-23 09:29:22 <Luke-Jr> McKayDavis: reusable addresses also have a builtin mechanism for multiple payments too
 805 2014-10-23 09:30:16 <McKayDavis> yeah, payment protocol will be v0.0.2....
 806 2014-10-23 09:31:13 benrcole has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 807 2014-10-23 09:31:33 <McKayDavis> I'm just trying to get a payment verification backend that doesn't depend on blockchain.info or other third-party
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 810 2014-10-23 09:36:04 <McKayDavis> thx everyone for their time!
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 863 2014-10-23 10:27:54 <finway> So,sidechain is the solution ?
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 868 2014-10-23 10:32:49 <finway> I see so many big names on the whitepaper
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 913 2014-10-23 11:11:58 <Adlai> in a fresh sync, after reaching height=87704, 0.9.3 has begun reporting orphans from ORPHAN BLOCK 155 through 420 and counting
 914 2014-10-23 11:12:02 <Adlai> he ded?
 915 2014-10-23 11:12:24 <Adlai> ah nvm, it's rolling again
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 918 2014-10-23 11:13:36 <justanotheruser> Adlai: happens to me a lot too.
 919 2014-10-23 11:13:45 <justanotheruser> goes up to the 750 limit and the continues
 920 2014-10-23 11:13:53 <justanotheruser> *then
 921 2014-10-23 11:14:09 <wumpus> orphans are normal during initial sync
 922 2014-10-23 11:14:23 <wumpus> headers-first will solve this
 923 2014-10-23 11:14:27 * Adlai has this sync on a timer
 924 2014-10-23 11:14:43 <Adlai> wasn't headers-first merged?
 925 2014-10-23 11:15:00 <wumpus> yes, but that doesn't help if you're using 0.9.3
 926 2014-10-23 11:15:11 <wumpus> master has it, 0.10.x will have it
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 928 2014-10-23 11:17:33 <Adlai> now that you mention it, 0.9.3 is < 0.9.99 >_<
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 932 2014-10-23 11:25:10 <anton000> anyone got testnet coins?
 933 2014-10-23 11:25:11 <anton000> msySzSNHTYwFVzmvUGQZ59h3pdZLDQfbak
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 935 2014-10-23 11:25:39 * Adlai sends
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 937 2014-10-23 11:27:05 <anton000> thnx!
 938 2014-10-23 11:27:37 <anton000> got 399
 939 2014-10-23 11:27:52 <Adlai> i have 0.1 more if you need
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 941 2014-10-23 11:29:33 <anton000> i think i have enoguht to test with :) thnx!
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 953 2014-10-23 11:44:18 <deego> gmaxwell and Luke-Jr: Kudos on the sidechain paper. I'm still reading it (on my superficial level, of course.. I'm likely getting a whoosh on a lot of it). Can I ask a Q in the meanwhile: Does the implementation of sidechain technology need any patches to bitcoin itself, or does it work with bitcoin as it stands atm?
 954 2014-10-23 11:45:20 <Luke-Jr> deego: a proper implementation really needs a softfork at least - but with the current master blockchain, it's possible to do "federated pegs" which basically means an automated N-of-M signs for transfers back
 955 2014-10-23 11:46:03 <Luke-Jr> deego: the idea is to implement the softfork (or hardfork) necessary for the sidechains in a sidechain itself, and use a federated peg to link that sidechain to the current chain, until everyone is comfortable making that sidechain the new main chain
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 958 2014-10-23 11:47:56 <deego> Luke-Jr: thanks. Are other sidechains that never aim to always be a side chain viable? Such as namecoins?
 959 2014-10-23 11:48:17 <Luke-Jr> you mean never aim to be a main chain? sure
 960 2014-10-23 11:48:35 <deego> nice
 961 2014-10-23 11:48:36 <Luke-Jr> this first case is "special" because a federated peg isn't really a good idea to rely on long-term
 962 2014-10-23 11:48:36 <Adlai> deego: you could implement a name registration sidechain, where you pay registration fees in bitcoin, rather than a separate currency
 963 2014-10-23 11:49:02 <Luke-Jr> (although future would-be-hardforks can use it too)
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 966 2014-10-23 11:52:34 <deego> Adlai and Luke-Jr: If sidechain assets are 1-1 exchange from bitcoins, where do "exchange rates" come in? Pardon my stupid Q, I'm having trouble understanding the concept atm :(
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 970 2014-10-23 11:55:46 <Adlai> deego: they don't, one of the main points of sidechains is to be able to use the parent chain's reward currency directly in sidechains
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 972 2014-10-23 11:56:10 <Adlai> if you issue assets in a sidechain (eg colored coins), that's a different story
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 974 2014-10-23 11:57:29 <deego> Adlai: Ah, I came across "exchange rates" in the paper. I guess that refers to an essentilly fixed rate..
 975 2014-10-23 11:57:42 <deego> got you re colored coins
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 980 2014-10-23 12:02:26 <b-itcoinssg> deego, can you please provide a link for the paper?
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 982 2014-10-23 12:02:36 <Adlai> b-itcoinssg: http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
 983 2014-10-23 12:02:44 <b-itcoinssg> thanks Adlai
 984 2014-10-23 12:02:56 <Adlai> deego: "Two-way peg refers to…  a fixed or otherwise deterministic exchange rate."
 985 2014-10-23 12:03:04 <Adlai> (from 3.1 Definitions)
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 987 2014-10-23 12:05:46 <deego> Adlai: yeah
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 990 2014-10-23 12:08:28 <Luke-Jr> deego: someone might want their sidechain to be 1:111111 or something *shrug*
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1011 2014-10-23 12:14:09 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: may to allow dividing up bitcoins, if satoshis are no longer enough
1012 2014-10-23 12:14:29 <wumpus> maybe*
1013 2014-10-23 12:14:43 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: don't need to have an exchange rate for that :p
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1015 2014-10-23 12:15:04 <Luke-Jr> although I guess you might want one in such a scenario
1016 2014-10-23 12:15:14 <wumpus> well, if both sides in base units, you'd have an 'exchange rate'
1017 2014-10-23 12:15:21 <justanotheruser> when 1 satoshi isn't granular enough, I wonder if we will just move to a child chain with more granularity rather than hard forking
1018 2014-10-23 12:15:40 <wumpus> justanotheruser: at least small transactions can move to that child chain
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1052 2014-10-23 12:39:16 <b-itcoinssg> sidechain consensus security within its eco-system is independent of Bitcoin right? or atleast can be, unless merged mining is implemented?
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1056 2014-10-23 12:43:01 <Adlai> b-itcoinssg: aiui, correct.
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1062 2014-10-23 12:45:10 <b-itcoinssg> I'm trying to look at this from a critical perspective, if the paper is accurately in modeling what will happen when implemented, the only people against this would be those that "burned" bitcoins in the past to issue their "asests"? Does anyone see any other detractors from the proposal, assuming it does work?
1063 2014-10-23 12:46:20 <Adlai> those who clone, pump, and dump altcoins for rent money
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1065 2014-10-23 12:46:34 <b-itcoinssg> :-) right
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1067 2014-10-23 12:46:58 <finway> about side-chains:   could two-peg sidechains someday be able to  cut the peg or change to one-side peg sidechains ?
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1104 2014-10-23 13:19:32 <jgarzik> hum
1105 2014-10-23 13:19:58 <jgarzik> Report:  Bitcoin-Qt cannot open wallet file after upgrade to OSX Yosemite.
1106 2014-10-23 13:20:12 <jgarzik> When the wallet is copied to an older OSX machine, the wallet file opens just fine.
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1108 2014-10-23 13:22:17 <rdymac> Could the be corrupted?
1109 2014-10-23 13:22:23 <rdymac> It*
1110 2014-10-23 13:22:57 <timothy> <jgarzik> When the wallet is copied to an older OSX machine, the wallet file opens just fine.
1111 2014-10-23 13:23:01 <rdymac> Any BitcoinTalk.org admin/ super moderator?
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1113 2014-10-23 13:23:56 <rdymac> timothy: I use two OSX, I have things working on one and it doesn't work in the other... Just because a new param is needed for the new os
1114 2014-10-23 13:24:03 Dr-G has joined
1115 2014-10-23 13:24:37 <rdymac> So, if the file is created in the new system it works, but if imported it doesn't
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1117 2014-10-23 13:24:49 <paveljanik> rdymac: which one? Is it documented?
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1121 2014-10-23 13:25:34 <rdymac> Mountain Lion and Mavericks... Huge jump, so maybe Yosemite has same problem.
1122 2014-10-23 13:25:38 Skirmant has joined
1123 2014-10-23 13:26:04 <rdymac> Exporting keys and labels, then importing them might do the trick
1124 2014-10-23 13:26:55 <rdymac> I can't enter to #bitcoin (banned) where can I find a BitcoinTalk admin?
1125 2014-10-23 13:27:20 Andrewmeows has quit (Client Quit)
1126 2014-10-23 13:27:57 <timothy> rdymac: why are you banned?
1127 2014-10-23 13:28:33 Andymeows has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1128 2014-10-23 13:29:41 <rdymac> Because I called to action when Venezuelans were being shot in the face by the government forces
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1131 2014-10-23 13:32:51 <iwilcox> rdymac: Unbanned, on the understanding that you won't push non-Bitcoin political stuff there again.
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1133 2014-10-23 13:33:29 <rdymac> Yeah, of course
1134 2014-10-23 13:34:31 <rdymac> Ukraine is good to be discussed, Venezuela is not. Lesson learned :). Will look for a forum admin elsewhere too. Thanks for the unban
1135 2014-10-23 13:34:53 agricocb has joined
1136 2014-10-23 13:35:22 <rdymac> Sorry for the offtopic at -dev
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1154 2014-10-23 13:56:13 <elichai2> hey
1155 2014-10-23 13:56:17 <elichai2> why does the QT isn't running the deamon too?
1156 2014-10-23 13:56:19 <elichai2> (I mean why does the QT isn't like a GUI above the deamon)
1157 2014-10-23 13:56:38 <timothy> no
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1166 2014-10-23 14:12:38 <jgarzik> elichai2, Bitcoin-Qt may act as a server
1167 2014-10-23 14:13:01 <jgarzik> Bitcoin-Qt is already a P2P node.  You may use the RPC console in the Qt GUI, or turn on the internal RPC server.
1168 2014-10-23 14:13:11 <elichai2> jgarzik, but why? i mean, why i need to close the Qt and run the deamon just to make some commands
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1170 2014-10-23 14:13:32 <elichai2> no, i wrote a script that does some things for me via the CLI
1171 2014-10-23 14:13:37 <jgarzik> elichai2, You do not need to do that.
1172 2014-10-23 14:13:58 <elichai2> what do you mean?
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1174 2014-10-23 14:14:06 <jgarzik> elichai2, QT supports the cli.  Turn on the -server option
1175 2014-10-23 14:14:21 <elichai2> ohhhh. ok, i'll try thx
1176 2014-10-23 14:14:39 <b-itcoinssg> Jeff, I think he means, why doesn't the QT act as a top layer framework that uses the daemon as its engine
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1178 2014-10-23 14:15:12 <jgarzik> b-itcoinssg, I think we got it.  He wrote "why i need to close the Qt and run the deamon just to make some commands"
1179 2014-10-23 14:15:23 <b-itcoinssg> right
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1182 2014-10-23 14:19:44 <elichai2> jgarzik, b-itcoinssg, i meant both btw, lol
1183 2014-10-23 14:20:25 <elichai2> after i figured out i had to close the QT to run the deamon i asked myself why it's not act as a top layer above the deamon
1184 2014-10-23 14:21:05 <jgarzik> QT == daemon + more
1185 2014-10-23 14:21:11 <jgarzik> QT includes the daemon, internally.
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1235 2014-10-23 15:15:12 <wumpus> <jgarzik> Report:  Bitcoin-Qt cannot open wallet file after upgrade to OSX Yosemite. <- same version of berkeleydb?
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1237 2014-10-23 15:15:55 <wumpus> this sounds like the typical 'the wallet has been opened with bdb 5.1 then cannot be opened with 4.8 anymore' problem
1238 2014-10-23 15:16:29 <jgarzik> wumpus, this guy doesn't do custom builds, just uses our release version downloads
1239 2014-10-23 15:16:42 <jgarzik> a Mere User
1240 2014-10-23 15:16:58 <kjj> why do so many things assume you want to perform an irreversible backup when you use them?
1241 2014-10-23 15:16:58 <wumpus> what error does he get?
1242 2014-10-23 15:17:06 <kjj> er, upgrade, not backup
1243 2014-10-23 15:17:07 <jgarzik> I'm going to get ahold of the debug.log and have that answer soon, hopefully
1244 2014-10-23 15:17:40 <wumpus> anyhow, I'd be surprised if you can't work around it with a combination of   db4.8_dump wallet.dat | db4.8_load wallet.dat.new
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1246 2014-10-23 15:19:28 <wumpus> kjj: indeed, downgrading is not usually considered an option at all
1247 2014-10-23 15:20:24 <kjj> I seem to recall some versions of the ext filesystem pulling that crap before too
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1252 2014-10-23 15:25:29 <wumpus> kjj: yes, I remember as well, although it was possible to force using some mount option
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1274 2014-10-23 15:41:46 * Adlai syncs bitcoind master on his home connection: 2h31m in, progress=0.269849
1275 2014-10-23 15:42:14 <chmod755> Adlai, are you using bootstrap.dat?
1276 2014-10-23 15:42:42 <Adlai> chmod755: nope, headfirst sync
1277 2014-10-23 15:42:53 <chmod755> ohhh wow
1278 2014-10-23 15:43:00 <Adlai> it's in github master now!
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1280 2014-10-23 15:44:18 <chmod755> should i start using it already?
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1282 2014-10-23 15:45:18 <sipa> it's it git master
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1301 2014-10-23 16:02:30 <Adlai> to learn of git master, first you must master git
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1346 2014-10-23 16:40:58 <chmod755> full node upgraded to version 99900
1347 2014-10-23 16:44:33 <xiando> "It turns out that by exploiting a Bitcoin built-in reputation based DoS protection an attacker is able to force specific Bitcoin peers to ban Tor Exit nodes of her choice" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.6079v1.pdf  Is this claim true?
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1358 2014-10-23 16:53:26 <jgarzik> xiando, mostly true.  Devil is in the details and behavior.
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1363 2014-10-23 16:56:52 <helo> will tor-proxied nodes ever receive hidden service addresses through the network, if they don't use addnode/connect to one?
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1394 2014-10-23 17:33:49 <michagogo> helo: what do you mean?
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1400 2014-10-23 17:36:02 <helo> michagogo: when using -tor=[..] to proxy, will bitcoind just be connecting to ipv4 addresses through a tor relay, or will it somehow get rumored .onion hosts to connect to (thus avoiding exit relays and many of the problems in the pdf above)
1401 2014-10-23 17:36:19 <michagogo> -tor=foo?
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1403 2014-10-23 17:36:23 <michagogo> That's deprecated
1404 2014-10-23 17:36:29 <michagogo> (if it hasn't already been removed)
1405 2014-10-23 17:36:48 <michagogo> It's replaced by onion=
1406 2014-10-23 17:36:58 <michagogo> Because what it does isn't tell it to use tor
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1409 2014-10-23 17:37:21 <michagogo> If you want a tor-only node, you want proxy=127.0.0.1:9050
1410 2014-10-23 17:37:30 <michagogo> or whatever address/port you have tor listening on
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1412 2014-10-23 17:37:58 <michagogo> The onion option, and previously the tor option, tells it what proxy to use specifically for tor addresses
1413 2014-10-23 17:38:06 <michagogo> that is, for .onions
1414 2014-10-23 17:38:42 <michagogo> So you can connect to ipv4 peers over ipv4 and onion peers over tor
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1417 2014-10-23 17:41:40 <helo> err right, does proxy=[..] alone allow the discover of .onion hosts?
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1431 2014-10-23 17:51:13 <Luke-Jr> BTW, in case anyone here is missing out…  http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2k3u97/we_are_bitcoin_sidechain_paper_authors_adam_back/
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1434 2014-10-23 17:58:08 <michagogo> helo: yes AIUI
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1455 2014-10-23 18:18:29 <gavinandresen> Opinions wanted: does IsInitialBlockDownload() make sense for regression-test mode?  Reason I ask: I’m writing a regression test that creates chains with specific block timestamps. That is more difficult because if I create blocks ‘in the past’ they are not relayed to peers, because they smell like IsInitialDownload()
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1457 2014-10-23 18:19:26 <gavinandresen> I’m waffling between implementing -regtest is never in initial download, and using getblock/submitblock instead of p2p to relay ‘old’ blocks
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1477 2014-10-23 18:31:57 <elichai2> petertodd was here lately?
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1495 2014-10-23 18:52:27 <gavinandresen> … SO tempted to answer elichai2 with “no, he’s not around right now, but I can answer for him. What’s up?”    …. must resist……
1496 2014-10-23 18:52:47 <elichai2> gavinandresen, it's about his 'replace-by-fee' tool
1497 2014-10-23 18:55:13 <btcdrak> gavinandresen: :)
1498 2014-10-23 18:56:02 <jgarzik> heh
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1500 2014-10-23 18:56:24 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, RE IsInitiall.... IMO no 99% of the time :)
1501 2014-10-23 18:56:27 <jgarzik> but not 100%
1502 2014-10-23 18:57:02 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yeah…  I decided to go with use getblock/submitblock to create the ‘old’ chain
1503 2014-10-23 18:57:33 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, regtest turns off checkpoints, I presume?
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1505 2014-10-23 18:57:54 <gavinandresen> I think it just has a checkpoint that is the genesis hash
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1507 2014-10-23 18:59:13 <jgarzik> indeed
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1686 2014-10-23 22:13:26 <BlueMatt> most recent unsigned commit: 494ff05a4cd9d89857342d5c843ed480afcc8fe7
1687 2014-10-23 22:13:29 <BlueMatt> wumpus: wtf bro
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1702 2014-10-23 22:27:27 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: do you have a link justifying signing every commit? last I heard it was considered bad practice in general
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1707 2014-10-23 22:29:56 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: its become policy in bitcoin core...
1708 2014-10-23 22:30:06 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: its not ideal, but its better than the alternative (trusting github)
1709 2014-10-23 22:30:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: he's writing a tool to check whether top-level commits have a signature (which means that commits being merged into the branch don't)
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1711 2014-10-23 22:30:15 <BlueMatt> and, no, I dont want to rehash this debate
1712 2014-10-23 22:30:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: wrote
1713 2014-10-23 22:30:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: i think Luke-Jr was being confused about which commits
1714 2014-10-23 22:30:39 <sipa> so basically only the merges themselves
1715 2014-10-23 22:30:43 <Luke-Jr> k
1716 2014-10-23 22:30:58 <zooko> Brian Warner is working on an awesome hack which automates that process.
1717 2014-10-23 22:31:17 <zooko> So that when you do a "git pull" it automatically refuses to apply any unsigned patches, and when you do a "git commit" it automatically signs whatever you are committing.
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1719 2014-10-23 22:31:29 <zooko> I didn't know bitcoin core was using that policy.
1720 2014-10-23 22:31:56 <BlueMatt> only for merges
1721 2014-10-23 22:32:28 <sipa> zooko: we have a script that basically pulls a request from github, checks whether a local merges results in the same thing as github says, let's you run the unit tests on it and inspect the code, and then merge + gpg sign + push it
1722 2014-10-23 22:32:48 <sipa> if everyone always uses that, there is much better auditability of what goes in
1723 2014-10-23 22:33:05 <zooko> Cool.
1724 2014-10-23 22:33:07 <sipa> but that also means we need a means of easily checking whether that policy is being followed
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1787 2014-10-23 23:40:10 <petertodd> elichai2: yo
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1789 2014-10-23 23:41:29 <petertodd> elichai2: replace-by-fee-tools double-spending script isn't a guarantee; if you want to see a sucesful double-spend try shortening the delay time and/or using some of the options
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