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233 2014-10-25 07:18:57 * Luke-Jr regrets pushing for signed message support :|
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235 2014-10-25 07:24:17 <wumpus> why Luke-Jr?
236 2014-10-25 07:24:44 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: seems people are trying to use it to prove they *sent* bitcoins, which of course doesn't work
237 2014-10-25 07:25:53 <Luke-Jr> maybe the solution is to add a function to sign that scenario - but I'm not sure there's a good way to do that either
238 2014-10-25 07:26:03 <Luke-Jr> until HD wallets are implemented, anyway
239 2014-10-25 07:26:48 <wumpus> to prove that you sent bitcoins you'd say that giving the txid is enough? at least, if the merchant gives out a unique address for each order/customer
240 2014-10-25 07:27:35 <Luke-Jr> the txid is public
241 2014-10-25 07:27:42 <Luke-Jr> anyone can claim they sent it
242 2014-10-25 07:27:56 <Luke-Jr> of course, you don't need to prove it if they give you a unique address
243 2014-10-25 07:27:57 <wumpus> right - but the merchant knows?
244 2014-10-25 07:28:25 <wumpus> assuming no one else will listen in and just randomly pay your invoice
245 2014-10-25 07:28:28 <wumpus> :P
246 2014-10-25 07:28:55 <Luke-Jr> shrug, if they do, that's their problem
247 2014-10-25 07:29:07 <wumpus> right, so I don't really see the issue, its either paid or not paid
248 2014-10-25 07:29:17 <Luke-Jr> but the mode of operation "send 0.01 BTC to my sig address and I'll ship you X" is totally non-workable today
249 2014-10-25 07:29:29 <Luke-Jr> which is apparently what some n00bs are trying to do
250 2014-10-25 07:29:39 <wumpus> ugh, yes, that has always been unworkable
251 2014-10-25 07:30:54 <wumpus> and if it requires the customers to sign anything, it puts the burden on them and gives them extra work
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275 2014-10-25 08:30:08 <lewellyn> Luke-Jr: is there a page describing, irrefutably, about sending and addresses and signing and etc.?
276 2014-10-25 08:30:27 <lewellyn> it's definitely something of a faq that ought to be addressed. :P
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278 2014-10-25 08:30:48 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/From_address - but it doesn't talk about signing
279 2014-10-25 08:31:00 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address - but it also doesn't talk about signing
280 2014-10-25 08:31:12 <Luke-Jr> oh, that one does actually
281 2014-10-25 08:31:22 <Luke-Jr> "Proving you receive with an address"
282 2014-10-25 08:32:12 Aquent420 is now known as Dr-G
283 2014-10-25 08:32:45 <lewellyn> yeah. nothing which would just end that thread. :P
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286 2014-10-25 08:38:31 <Luke-Jr> lewellyn: maybe pointing out I wrote the sign message GUI they're using will help :p
287 2014-10-25 08:40:05 <lewellyn> unlikely.
288 2014-10-25 08:40:32 <lewellyn> i was thinking that maybe i could link such a page though, since it's not obvious on the forum that we've ever encountered each other.
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304 2014-10-25 09:16:52 <b-itcoinssg> I noticed there was a hash of the commit on the Wuille et. al. sidechains paper, is it available on github?
305 2014-10-25 09:17:11 <sipa> no
306 2014-10-25 09:17:44 <sipa> the pdf is public.domain, though
307 2014-10-25 09:17:58 <b-itcoinssg> Hey Peiter, great work on the paper btw. what did the hash reference to?
308 2014-10-25 09:18:51 <phantomcircuit> b-itcoinssg, a git commit obviously
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310 2014-10-25 09:19:06 <b-itcoinssg> ok
311 2014-10-25 09:19:45 <justanotheruser> why isn't there a 4c (push the next byte bytes) before the the 14 (bytes) in a transaction? It just goes 76a914 (DUP, HASH, num-bytes-to-push). 0x14 doesn't do anything
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314 2014-10-25 09:20:31 <sipa> justanotheruser: opcodes 0-75 just push the following N bytes immediately
315 2014-10-25 09:20:56 <sipa> with N the opcode number
316 2014-10-25 09:21:03 <justanotheruser> oh, I just glanced at the "N/A" and assumed it meant no-op
317 2014-10-25 09:21:22 <justanotheruser> ok, makes sense, thanks
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448 2014-10-25 12:38:56 <todam00n> can auxpow blocks be verified offline?
449 2014-10-25 12:39:12 <todam00n> assuming the parent blockchain is not available
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454 2014-10-25 12:44:30 <btcdrak> sipa, wumpus, gavinandresen, petertodd, Luke-Jr, can you comment on this: http://blog.bettercrypto.com/?p=916 "We wonder why bitcoin developers and bitcoin foundation have been as usual utterly negligent about security so that this patch has NOT YET BEEN applied in bitcoin core software for like 18 months since January 2013."
455 2014-10-25 12:45:21 <wumpus> what patch?
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457 2014-10-25 12:46:59 <sipa> btcdrak: using deterministic signing is good practice in ECDSA, but not doing it is hardly a critical vulnerability (btw: all cases known where the random nonce was weak were not bitcoin core, so it wouldn't have mattered)
458 2014-10-25 12:47:32 <sipa> btcdrak: we've been planning on using determnistic signing, but it means first getting rid of OpenSSL (or requiring a very recent version; iirc not even released yet)
459 2014-10-25 12:47:33 <wumpus>  so should we patch openssl?!
460 2014-10-25 12:47:55 <wumpus> there is no release of openssl that has that code change, and we keep to released versions of openssl
461 2014-10-25 12:49:07 <sipa> i'll comment
462 2014-10-25 12:49:15 <wumpus> anyhow: much more will break if you don' thave a secure random number generator
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464 2014-10-25 12:49:25 <btcdrak> sipa, wumpus, thanks for the explanation.
465 2014-10-25 12:49:37 <wumpus> really seems like a unpleasant person, btw
466 2014-10-25 12:50:18 <wumpus> OH NO THOSE STUPID BITCOIN DEVS WHY DON'T THEY THINK ABOUT SECURITY LOOK AT ME
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469 2014-10-25 12:51:42 <btcdrak> wumpus, yeah. I dont like when people dump on OSS contributors like that. My immediate reaction to him was "why dont you have PR if it's so easy to fix". He doesnt even reference an open github issue.
470 2014-10-25 12:51:49 <wumpus> but sure, on the internet it's right to be a dick
471 2014-10-25 12:52:47 benrcole has joined
472 2014-10-25 12:53:06 <btcdrak> maybe it would be good to have a ticket open regarding this though, that there are plans for deterministic signing and what steps are pending for that to happen (can use Github task lists features: https://github.com/blog/1375%0A-task-lists-in-gfm-issues-pulls-comments)
473 2014-10-25 12:53:19 <btcdrak> assuming there isnt a ticket there already :-P
474 2014-10-25 12:54:48 <wumpus> let's just get rid of the wallet, gets rid of this problem too
475 2014-10-25 12:56:55 Knuk has joined
476 2014-10-25 12:58:16 <sipa> wtf
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478 2014-10-25 12:59:33 <sipa> their comment plugin is broken
479 2014-10-25 12:59:40 <sipa> complains about a missing cookie
480 2014-10-25 13:00:59 <wumpus> hehe, big words about negligent developers but they can't even maintain a working website
481 2014-10-25 13:01:18 <sipa> ah, 2nd attempt and it works
482 2014-10-25 13:01:23 <sipa> "awaits moderation"
483 2014-10-25 13:02:34 <SomeoneWeird> hahah
484 2014-10-25 13:02:37 <SomeoneWeird> DENIED
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487 2014-10-25 13:05:08 <sipa> http://0bin.net/paste/3dPMfTAu7SKH9zXo#fYE+deOWREwmuCEth3p3ZrLueyj0SMBDfcnjjOoamA7
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490 2014-10-25 13:07:52 <wumpus> good post
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529 2014-10-25 14:06:11 <b-itcoinssg> incase anyone wanted the sidechain paper on github https://github.com/bitcoinsSG/Wuille-et-al-2014
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620 2014-10-25 17:20:17 <maaku> wumpus: you're getting paid to work on bitcoin. that automatically makes you part of the problem!
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624 2014-10-25 17:25:28 <b-itcoinssg> what is the process involved in submitting a bip request?
625 2014-10-25 17:26:06 <b-itcoinssg> Do I just write one up on github, have the experts look at it and then ask them to submit it?
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627 2014-10-25 17:27:22 <b-itcoinssg> no one here?
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645 2014-10-25 17:52:33 <gmaxwell> b-itcoinssg: see BIP1
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647 2014-10-25 17:53:22 <gmaxwell> b-itcoinssg: Why have you copied the sidechains paper to github like that?  You realize this will falsely give people the impression that you are or represent the authors, right?
648 2014-10-25 17:53:58 <b-itcoinssg> gmaxwell: thanks for the info
649 2014-10-25 17:54:33 <b-itcoinssg> gmaxwell: I put it on there so that I or the public could add more descriptive additions to it, like graphs etc
650 2014-10-25 17:54:41 <therp> gmaxwell: at least for my part, my default assumption is not that random paper pdfs on github represent the authors.
651 2014-10-25 17:55:20 <gmaxwell> b-itcoinssg: the copy you have on there is a somewhat mangled conversion from the PDF, it's not a form sutiable for editing.
652 2014-10-25 17:55:43 <b-itcoinssg> gmaxwell: I have the authors made very explicit on the repo, what do you suggest I do?
653 2014-10-25 17:56:17 <b-itcoinssg> gmaxwell: I'm still working on it. It's not finished
654 2014-10-25 17:56:17 <kanzure> did you manually convert this to markdown?
655 2014-10-25 17:56:23 <kanzure> why did you bother?
656 2014-10-25 17:56:26 <b-itcoinssg> yes
657 2014-10-25 17:56:52 <kanzure> wouldn't it be better to just use the original latex infrastructure?
658 2014-10-25 17:57:24 <b-itcoinssg> I'm not familiar with the latex infrastructure
659 2014-10-25 17:58:04 <gmaxwell> OT for here in any case.
660 2014-10-25 17:58:30 <elichai2> petertodd, anyone got Peter Todd E-Mail? I just not always online here so it's hard to communicate...
661 2014-10-25 17:58:59 Lexa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
662 2014-10-25 17:59:32 <b-itcoinssg> gmaxwell: Do you want to take it down?
663 2014-10-25 17:59:51 <b-itcoinssg> do you want me to take it down?*
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666 2014-10-25 18:04:07 <b-itcoinssg> gmaxwell: you there?
667 2014-10-25 18:07:10 <b-itcoinssg> gmaxwell: ok it's deleted. It was only up for a few hours I doubt if anyone cloned it. So much for a day's work.
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669 2014-10-25 18:08:49 <elichai2> ops, my message wasn't for Peter Todd, it was for everybody else lol
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675 2014-10-25 18:13:56 <b-itcoinssg> elichai2: have you tried him on twitter? he was active a few minutes ago
676 2014-10-25 18:14:25 <elichai2> b-itcoinssg, my questions are a little more private for twitter :)
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678 2014-10-25 18:15:15 <b-itcoinssg> i see :-)
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697 2014-10-25 18:39:28 <b-itcoinssg> in a Bitcoin pubkey hash, [1][x] is x supposed to account for the 2^160 range in base58 form?
698 2014-10-25 18:40:10 <b-itcoinssg> I ask this because I would like to convert from base58 to another base
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703 2014-10-25 18:42:18 <justanotheruser> b-itcoinssg: what do you mean [1][x]? There are 2^160 pkh' if thats what you mean
704 2014-10-25 18:42:32 <justanotheruser> oh, [1][x] as in an address?
705 2014-10-25 18:42:35 <b-itcoinssg> yes
706 2014-10-25 18:42:42 <justanotheruser> an address is a pubkeyhash plus a checksum
707 2014-10-25 18:42:52 <b-itcoinssg> so [3][x] for a script hash
708 2014-10-25 18:42:58 <justanotheruser> ya
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710 2014-10-25 18:43:05 <b-itcoinssg> right
711 2014-10-25 18:43:18 <justanotheruser> b-itcoinssg: I think this would be useful to you https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
712 2014-10-25 18:44:21 <b-itcoinssg> thanks, I have been reading that page and other related page on addresses, I wanted to verify something because I start writing something up
713 2014-10-25 18:45:12 <justanotheruser> b-itcoinssg: what do you want if not base 58?
714 2014-10-25 18:45:50 <b-itcoinssg> I want to convert it to a larger base for shorter address, well, at least human memory wise
715 2014-10-25 18:46:19 <b-itcoinssg> but I want to retain the type of address script vs. normal
716 2014-10-25 18:46:21 <justanotheruser> would be tricky using non-alphanumeric keys regarding human memory and usability
717 2014-10-25 18:46:24 <b-itcoinssg> so I would retain the 1
718 2014-10-25 18:46:30 <b-itcoinssg> or the 3
719 2014-10-25 18:46:53 <b-itcoinssg> but I wanted to verify if all that's left is to convert the trailing variables ie. [1][x] to another base
720 2014-10-25 18:47:10 <b-itcoinssg> trailing variables = whatever x contains
721 2014-10-25 18:49:27 <justanotheruser> b-itcoinssg: well you can easily have the same behavior in a different base
722 2014-10-25 18:49:49 <justanotheruser> also, the 1 isn't appended, it is part of what is converted to base 58
723 2014-10-25 18:50:08 <b-itcoinssg> ok, that was where I was a little unclear
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744 2014-10-25 18:51:47 <b-itcoinssg> my largest concern would be to not loose the entropy for obvious reasons
745 2014-10-25 18:52:04 <justanotheruser> not obvious to me
746 2014-10-25 18:54:04 <b-itcoinssg> I woun't want to unintentionally convert something that is actually a big number to a smaller space
747 2014-10-25 18:54:29 <justanotheruser> if you do it right that shouldn't be a problem
748 2014-10-25 18:54:35 <b-itcoinssg> right
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750 2014-10-25 18:54:47 <justanotheruser> with the current libraries, you can convert from base58 to 16 and 16 to your base
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752 2014-10-25 18:56:05 <b-itcoinssg> well it seems even if I convert the whole string to a another base, and append the 1 or 3 to retain the address type it should be an issue if it memorable. an addition 1 or 3 shouldn't hurt too much if the concept is good enough
753 2014-10-25 18:56:41 <b-itcoinssg> right I'm converting to a larges base, something in the hundreds of thousauds
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755 2014-10-25 18:57:02 <justanotheruser> o_O
756 2014-10-25 18:57:06 <b-itcoinssg> I did find some code for converting bases though
757 2014-10-25 18:57:10 <b-itcoinssg> that was helpful
758 2014-10-25 18:57:17 <justanotheruser> I don't have a hundred thousand options on my keyboard
759 2014-10-25 18:57:23 <b-itcoinssg> lol
760 2014-10-25 18:57:35 <justanotheruser> do you think im luke?
761 2014-10-25 18:57:43 <b-itcoinssg> lol
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764 2014-10-25 18:59:11 <b-itcoinssg> it actually a much simpler concept, you'll understand when you see it. Let me post something up on bitcointalk, there's probably something obvious I'm overlooking anyway.
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811 2014-10-25 19:44:46 <jgarzik> https://blog.conformal.com/btcsim-simulating-the-rise-of-bitcoin/
812 2014-10-25 19:45:06 <jgarzik> This seems to presume the bulk of ECDSA sig checking occurs after the "block" message is received
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815 2014-10-25 19:47:06 <b-itcoinssg> 32 MB block for 270 tps ? should it be lower?
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818 2014-10-25 19:48:02 <justanotheruser> ;;calc 7*32
819 2014-10-25 19:48:02 <gribble> 224
820 2014-10-25 19:48:09 <justanotheruser> close enough.
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827 2014-10-25 19:49:34 <justanotheruser> 7 is an estimate anyways. looks like the 270tps estimate assumes 197 byte transactions
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829 2014-10-25 19:49:51 <justanotheruser> jgarzik: does that matter much?
830 2014-10-25 19:50:06 <justanotheruser> it just lags the validation, it seems the speed should be the same
831 2014-10-25 19:50:20 <gmaxwell> transation rates here are much higher than that in my testing... but nodes are bandwidth limited long before being cpu limited.
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863 2014-10-25 20:51:43 <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: if the random source is crap, then Bitcoin Core is vulnerable even if it implements deterministic ECDSA signatures
864 2014-10-25 21:06:46 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ditto everything that generates a private key
865 2014-10-25 21:07:00 <Luke-Jr> yep
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869 2014-10-25 21:10:15 <gmaxwell> Derandomized DSA is certantly preferable in my view. But it's unsupported by released versions of openssl; and changing behavior has some of its own risks. (I'm surprised things haven't changed though the partially derandomized openssl code has been in beta for over a year)... at the same time the author of that page seems to be saying anything possible to attack Bitcoin in general, e.g. he also criticizes us for not using the ...
870 2014-10-25 21:10:21 <gmaxwell> ... NSA-magic-numbers NIST P-256 curve; ... I can't help but think that if we did use derandomized DSA he'd be making the technically correct criticism that we're violating the DSA specification.
871 2014-10-25 21:12:02 * Luke-Jr wonders if anyone has proven the DDSA algo in OpenSSL isn't vulnerable to something
872 2014-10-25 21:12:25 <phantomcircuit> unlikely
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878 2014-10-25 21:14:31 <Luke-Jr> deterministic signatures makes a *little* bit more sense once we have HD wallet support
879 2014-10-25 21:14:41 <Luke-Jr> then someone just needs to ensure their initial seed has entropy
880 2014-10-25 21:15:53 <Cryo> S=k.logW
881 2014-10-25 21:16:31 <Cryo> one of the few equations easy to remember :)
882 2014-10-25 21:18:28 <phantomcircuit> hmm
883 2014-10-25 21:19:35 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: IIRC the thing in the betaopenssl is hardned but not derandomized. Basically they do something that looks like a determinstic nonce generation, but then add a random value to it. In theory this is strictly superior, as it can be no less secure, so long as your random number source isn't somehow looking inside your deterministic-random function.  ... but it loses the testability advantages.
884 2014-10-25 21:19:45 <Cryo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Boltzmann#Final_years  awesome tombstone too.
885 2014-10-25 21:21:50 <Luke-Jr> Cryo: too small for me to read
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892 2014-10-25 21:44:28 <Cryo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Boltzmann#mediaviewer/File:Zentralfriedhof_Vienna_-_Boltzmann.JPG  at the top
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925 2014-10-25 23:07:34 <elbasanli> hi
926 2014-10-25 23:08:06 <elbasanli> helooo are u there?
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