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12 2014-10-26 00:09:43 <vonnklaus> can someone provide a link to the official bitcoin source code (github link preferred) there seem to be many subsets of it
13 2014-10-26 00:10:12 <phantomcircuit> vonnklaus, that's a bit of a loaded question
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15 2014-10-26 00:10:18 <vonnklaus> ?
16 2014-10-26 00:10:28 <vonnklaus> i just want to take a look at the original code
17 2014-10-26 00:10:30 <phantomcircuit> the bitcoin core code which is based on the reference client is at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
18 2014-10-26 00:10:42 <phantomcircuit> the original original code like from 2009?
19 2014-10-26 00:10:49 <moa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
20 2014-10-26 00:11:06 <vonnklaus> thanks. I have never actually seen the code before. I just wanted to make sure I was looking at the official distribution
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32 2014-10-26 00:26:30 <kryo_> how do i get the "send" transactions for an address?
33 2014-10-26 00:27:23 <kryo_> i need something like getreceivedbyaddress, but for sent coins
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51 2014-10-26 01:02:28 <phantomcircuit> kryo_, that doesn't make sense
52 2014-10-26 01:02:36 <phantomcircuit> ie what your asking for would be non sensical
53 2014-10-26 01:02:41 <phantomcircuit> nonsensical
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66 2014-10-26 01:16:41 <kryo_> phantomcircuit: i'm trying to design an audit page
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68 2014-10-26 01:17:28 <kryo_> how would i show a list of addresses used by bitcoind with their current balance?
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76 2014-10-26 01:29:02 <kryo_> does anyone know how i can get the remaning balance of an address owned by bitcoind?
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92 2014-10-26 01:55:13 <gwillen> kryo_: the only reasonable way to model a bitcoin wallet is that it has a pool of coins you spend from
93 2014-10-26 01:55:20 <gwillen> kryo_: those coins are not associated with any particular address
94 2014-10-26 01:55:49 <gwillen> if you try to associate them with a particular address, it will work in some cases and fail in weird ways in other cases
95 2014-10-26 02:01:09 <kryo_> gwillen: how is it that blockchain.info is able to supply the balance of an address, but bitcoind is not?
96 2014-10-26 02:01:20 <gwillen> because blockchain.info makes bad assumptions
97 2014-10-26 02:01:28 <gwillen> which will work somtimes, and other times will silently give garbage results
98 2014-10-26 02:01:34 <gwillen> because blockchain.info is kind of poorly coded
99 2014-10-26 02:02:06 <kryo_> all blockchain.info-like sites have a "balance" for addresses
100 2014-10-26 02:02:24 <iwilcox> And they're all misleading.
101 2014-10-26 02:02:35 <kryo_> why are they inconsistent with the way bitcoin actually works?
102 2014-10-26 02:02:41 <gwillen> for most addresses used by most current clients, you can pretend that they have a balance, and it will mostly work
103 2014-10-26 02:02:54 <gwillen> but for bitcoin addresses in general, it doesn't make sense and will not work in general
104 2014-10-26 02:04:51 <gwillen> (also, it is not recommended to receive more than one transaction to a single address; if you obey that, then any operation that spends any coins recieved by that address must necessarily spend all of them)
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106 2014-10-26 02:05:38 <kryo_> so how do i provide a list of all addresses with non-zero balances?
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108 2014-10-26 02:05:58 <kryo_> i'm trying to provide a list of all addresses which are currently holding coins
109 2014-10-26 02:06:12 <kryo_> this is in order to "prove" that we own the coins
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111 2014-10-26 02:06:22 <gwillen> ahhhh
112 2014-10-26 02:06:23 <iwilcox> Addresses do not hold coins. Addresses do not have balances. Your best option is to rid your mind of that idea.
113 2014-10-26 02:06:39 <gmaxwell> You'd want listunspent.
114 2014-10-26 02:06:50 <gwillen> iwilcox: in the context of proving that an entity is holding coins, it does make sense to ask "which addresses have recieved coins that have not yet been spent onward", though
115 2014-10-26 02:06:59 <gmaxwell> That will list the actual coins you are holding.
116 2014-10-26 02:07:45 <gmaxwell> gwillen: actually listing the coins themselves is better though... since 'balances' won't do you any good without relaying on some centeralized index service... though txouts can be looked up.
117 2014-10-26 02:08:03 <gwillen> gmaxwell: but you do have to map the coins to private keys that you can signmsg with
118 2014-10-26 02:08:16 <gwillen> although I guess it's wrong to assume that ECDSA private keys are in 1:1 correspondence with addresses
119 2014-10-26 02:08:24 <gmaxwell> gwillen: sure, listunspent will do that. (though signmessage is kinda limited)
120 2014-10-26 02:08:24 <gwillen> but in bitcoin-core I sort of assume that they always are
121 2014-10-26 02:08:28 * gwillen nods
122 2014-10-26 02:08:31 <gmaxwell> because of exactly that.
123 2014-10-26 02:09:37 <gmaxwell> Really there should be a standard form for an unminable transaction for use as a proof of spendability. e.g. one with an extra never to exist vin, and an nlocktime set maximally far in the future.
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128 2014-10-26 02:19:38 <kryo_> gmaxwell: thanks listunspent is exactly what i needed
129 2014-10-26 02:21:40 <kryo_> since this is a web service and we do not allow mining into deposit addresses, is it ok to sign every entry for listunspent?
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158 2014-10-26 02:45:05 <devrandom> is there a quick way to figure out which block heights had orphans, either with bitcoind or any of the block explorers?
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160 2014-10-26 02:47:19 <justanotheruser> devrandom: you will not get all the orphans if you run a new bitcoind, but some blockchain.info has a list of orphans they have seen https://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
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169 2014-10-26 02:55:50 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: you mean stale blocks.
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185 2014-10-26 03:14:28 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: yes
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187 2014-10-26 03:16:34 <devrandom> justanotheruser: I wish blockchain.info supported testnet. trying to figure out a potential reorg bug in my code, but it happened on testnet and I didn't keep bitcoind logs
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189 2014-10-26 03:18:14 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: actually both orphan and stale
190 2014-10-26 03:19:23 <devrandom> (isn't orphan a superset of stale?)
191 2014-10-26 03:19:39 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: no, orphan is a block with no know prevblock
192 2014-10-26 03:19:51 <Luke-Jr> stale is a block that is simply not in the best chain
193 2014-10-26 03:20:30 <devrandom> ah, that's right... so stales for my case
194 2014-10-26 03:21:59 <devrandom> BCI is using orphan to mean stale: https://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks
195 2014-10-26 03:23:10 <Luke-Jr> of course, BCI is always wrong.
196 2014-10-26 03:23:19 <Luke-Jr> nothing news
197 2014-10-26 03:23:48 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: so is there not consensus between whether a block is an orphan or stale? I mean, I may have a branch that proves an orphan has a known parent and another person might not.
198 2014-10-26 03:24:54 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: correct, there is not
199 2014-10-26 03:25:03 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: right now, most blocks come into Bitcoin Core as orphans
200 2014-10-26 03:25:08 <Luke-Jr> until they get connected
201 2014-10-26 03:25:27 <Luke-Jr> part of the headers-first improvement comes from eliminating that
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207 2014-10-26 03:38:17 <earlz> Possibly off-topic, but one of my hobby experiments has been unleashing genetic algorithms on sha256d to try to find optimizations not to find what the final value of the hash is, but rather how many bits of 0 it will be prefixed with
208 2014-10-26 03:38:27 <earlz> has anyone heard of anyone doing anything similar?
209 2014-10-26 03:38:59 <earlz> genetic algorithms are fun to mess with heh. My recent record is 10% accuracy out of 100 hashes with 120 operations
210 2014-10-26 03:40:47 <earlz> well actually not 10% accuracy.. ugh I need to improve my benchmarking setup
211 2014-10-26 03:41:03 <CodeShark> if it were possible to achieve anything greater than random accuracy with fewer operations than just trial-and-error it would constitute a break
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213 2014-10-26 03:41:47 <CodeShark> not sure how you're measuring that accuracy
214 2014-10-26 03:41:51 <earlz> eh, I think I'm going to try scaling down to using md5 instead when I rewrite all this. Start with something a bit easier lol
215 2014-10-26 03:42:49 <CodeShark> 10% meaning that out of every 100 guesses, 10 are exact? or 10% meaning that for each guess you're off by at most 10%?
216 2014-10-26 03:42:52 <CodeShark> or?
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218 2014-10-26 03:44:50 <earlz> ah. I remember now (it had been a while since I had dug into it before making minor tweaks and letting it run overnight)
219 2014-10-26 03:44:59 <earlz> uint targetbits = 0xFF;
220 2014-10-26 03:45:00 <earlz> if ((test.Target & targetbits) == (o.Value & targetbits))
221 2014-10-26 03:45:11 <earlz> so, I'm only trying to guess the first byte lol
222 2014-10-26 03:45:26 <earlz> the first byte of the hash, exact
223 2014-10-26 03:46:05 <earlz> 10% accuracy there probably doesn't mean anything, especially out of only 100 test hashes
224 2014-10-26 03:46:22 <CodeShark> you should get it exact once every 256 tries :)
225 2014-10-26 03:46:24 <earlz> My current setup is pretty bad though. I need to make some major improvements
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227 2014-10-26 03:47:22 <earlz> using my own home grown library that was basically hacked together until it worked
228 2014-10-26 03:47:55 <CodeShark> if you can consistently find an exact partial collision for the first byte with fewer operations than it takes to perform sha256 256 times you could be famous :)
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230 2014-10-26 03:49:17 <sinetek> and very rich indeed
231 2014-10-26 03:49:34 <earlz> Basically I have a VM setup. So, hash random bytes and store them in an array. Then take the "population" and run them in the VM for each test hash. measure and eliminate/breed/mutate
232 2014-10-26 03:49:53 <earlz> So it wouldn't be a collision, it'd be an optimization for a very specific case.. I think
233 2014-10-26 03:50:16 <sinetek> probably easier finding attacks for the crappy RNG in Android etc
234 2014-10-26 03:50:36 <earlz> lol that's not as fun though
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240 2014-10-26 03:56:42 <CodeShark> let me qualify my earlier statement - obviously, you could construct a table of inputs that produce each of the desired first bytes. so to truly qualify as a break you would need less than exponential space in the number of collision bytes
241 2014-10-26 03:57:38 <earlz> yea, that's not what I'm searching for
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243 2014-10-26 03:58:39 <earlz> I'm searching for a obscure optimization, not a collision.. though I'd take a collision if one fell in my lap ;)
244 2014-10-26 03:58:50 <earlz> well, partial collision*
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246 2014-10-26 04:00:19 <CodeShark> good luck :)
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293 2014-10-26 05:41:33 <coderwill> in bitcoin core, what is the schema for time? e.g. "time" : 1231006505
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295 2014-10-26 05:42:45 <coderwill> is that 12:31:00:65:05? approx. 12:31PM?
296 2014-10-26 05:43:24 <justanotheruser> coderwill: it is unix time?
297 2014-10-26 05:47:40 <coderwill> justanotheruser: thx :)
298 2014-10-26 05:48:05 <justanotheruser> thought it was a trick question :p.
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320 2014-10-26 06:39:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: so, for bip62 to not restrict the ability to later use p2sh like mechanisms, one possibility is disable the cleanstack requirement when one of the OP_NOPx codes is used
321 2014-10-26 06:39:28 <sipa> gmaxwell: as you're clearly doing something we don't understand yet, there is no way for us to reason about it either
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323 2014-10-26 06:42:26 <gmaxwell> Sounds reasonableish. Hm.
324 2014-10-26 06:52:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: I'm not convinced that it matters particularly
325 2014-10-26 06:52:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: p2sh could reasonably have an OP_DROP in its script
326 2014-10-26 06:52:45 <BlueMatt> well, theoretical p2shv2
327 2014-10-26 06:53:01 <sipa> well, p2shv2 doesn't even have to be opcode based
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329 2014-10-26 06:53:31 <gmaxwell> it would need to have more than one push due to the limit. :(
330 2014-10-26 06:53:35 <sipa> but if it is, and it has an OP_DROP inside, that means it's malleable
331 2014-10-26 06:53:48 <sipa> unless you first check that it's 0
332 2014-10-26 06:53:51 <sipa> or 11
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334 2014-10-26 06:54:02 <sipa> but yes, i agree
335 2014-10-26 06:54:13 <sipa> that is a possible workaround
336 2014-10-26 06:54:28 <gmaxwell> yea, but if you make your own txn malleable, you get to keep the pieces.
337 2014-10-26 06:55:03 <BlueMatt> waiitttt....ok, I misread the original problem...whats the issue here?
338 2014-10-26 06:55:16 <sipa> sorry, i meant to say "if you need an OP_DROP inside the p2shv2 redeemscript, that may result in the script be inevitably malleable"
339 2014-10-26 06:55:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: bip62 rule 6 (requiring exactly 1 stack element remaining) is incompatible with future p2sh schemes
340 2014-10-26 06:55:57 <sipa> as it even now needs special code to interact with p2sh
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342 2014-10-26 06:57:42 <BlueMatt> ahh, yes, ok...sorry
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347 2014-10-26 07:00:19 <BlueMatt> anyway, yea...so make a malleable-under-v3 tx that is restricted under v4 and is thus no longer malleable
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350 2014-10-26 07:00:39 * BlueMatt doesnt see this as a huge issue (ie doesnt appear to restrict ability to create p2sh-v2 in the future)
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353 2014-10-26 07:00:59 <sipa> well we don't know what v4 is going to be, and we may well want to keep the malleability protection for it
354 2014-10-26 07:01:21 <gmaxwell> keep in mind that the spending tx sets the version, but sending creates the scriptpubkey.
355 2014-10-26 07:01:36 <BlueMatt> indeed, but my point is v4 can introduce additional malleability restrictions for its p2sh-v3
356 2014-10-26 07:01:37 <sipa> one way is using the lowest bit of the transaction version, rather than >=3
357 2014-10-26 07:02:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: indeed, so to use p2sh-v2 you'll need an extra tx to keep it non-malleable
358 2014-10-26 07:02:19 <sipa> ewww
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360 2014-10-26 07:02:36 <BlueMatt> well, depending on what it even is
361 2014-10-26 07:03:50 <BlueMatt> if it is just a p2sh-v2 (ie p2sh with new encoding!!111one) then it doesnt matter as you need a new scriptpubkey before its applicable anyway
362 2014-10-26 07:04:05 <BlueMatt> so that doesnt matter, but there are cases where it might, I suppose
363 2014-10-26 07:04:17 <sipa> anyway, you are right that it is possible to have p2shv2 do a drop of all unused argument
364 2014-10-26 07:04:29 <sipa> (at least if you also require them to be 0, which is perfectly possible)
365 2014-10-26 07:04:29 <BlueMatt> ofc most of this is in the context of multi-tx protocols, so one extra.....
366 2014-10-26 07:04:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: no
367 2014-10-26 07:04:58 <sipa> no?
368 2014-10-26 07:05:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: if we were to introduce p2sh after bip62, you can just do all the drops, define p2sh to ignore them, and then re-run bip62 after p2sh
369 2014-10-26 07:05:28 <BlueMatt> do you dont care what they are
370 2014-10-26 07:05:57 <Luke-Jr> IMO we shouldn't have the "stack unused" rule based on tx version >=2 alone
371 2014-10-26 07:06:01 justanotheruser has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
372 2014-10-26 07:06:03 <sipa> not sure what you're trying to say
373 2014-10-26 07:06:09 <sipa> (to BlueMatt)
374 2014-10-26 07:06:32 <Luke-Jr> what was wrong with the idea of txver&2 indicate some of the rules?
375 2014-10-26 07:06:43 <sipa> permanently wasting a version bit
376 2014-10-26 07:07:21 <Luke-Jr> 1/32 is better than 99.99999% by far :p
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380 2014-10-26 07:08:23 <Luke-Jr> make OP_NOP2 be "fail if stack is not clear at end"?
381 2014-10-26 07:08:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: technically we don't need the empty stack rule.
382 2014-10-26 07:08:25 <BlueMatt> sipa: I'm probably still being thick, ignore
383 2014-10-26 07:08:40 <gmaxwell> End your script with OP_DEPTH 0 OP_EQUALVERIFY or the like.
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385 2014-10-26 07:08:58 <sipa> p2sh could require [current p2sh script] + N OP_DROPS (with N the number of scriptSig elements, ignoring the redeemscript)
386 2014-10-26 07:09:18 <sipa> and the p2sh script evaluation could require the unused inputs to be 0
387 2014-10-26 07:09:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that won't work for non-p2sh today, I think
388 2014-10-26 07:10:03 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Explain what you're thinking?
389 2014-10-26 07:10:34 <gmaxwell> (you can setup the script so nothing is left on the stack, then check, to eliminate malleability from additional pushes... s'all I'm saying)
390 2014-10-26 07:11:01 <sipa> ooooh we have an OP_DEPTH
391 2014-10-26 07:11:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm thinking someone may want to receive with 1â¦.. address, but still get malleability protection spending it
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393 2014-10-26 07:11:58 <sipa> right, it would mean protection to specific scripts, but not to currently standard scripts
394 2014-10-26 07:11:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if wishes were horses...
395 2014-10-26 07:11:59 <BlueMatt> oooo, OP_DEPTH
396 2014-10-26 07:12:24 <sipa> i never realized the unused elements of the stack were observable
397 2014-10-26 07:12:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: anyway, yea, what you wrote above is what I meant
398 2014-10-26 07:12:47 <sipa> oh, so we agree
399 2014-10-26 07:12:52 <BlueMatt> yes
400 2014-10-26 07:13:02 <sipa> always useful in a conversation to know that in advance before you start arguing :p
401 2014-10-26 07:13:16 <BlueMatt> awwww, so now we dont get to have the arguing part?
402 2014-10-26 07:13:18 <BlueMatt> thats no fun
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450 2014-10-26 08:52:01 <Luke-Jr> IMO "Only push operations in scriptSig" should also be not >=2
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453 2014-10-26 08:55:27 <sipa> i really don't want to introduce a third class of validation flags
454 2014-10-26 08:55:33 <sipa> it's already hard enough to reason about
455 2014-10-26 08:56:24 <sipa> and if it doesn't apply to v4 transactions now, that means no protection from malleability when a switchover to it happens
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457 2014-10-26 09:02:35 <Luke-Jr> sipa: when we get to v4 transactions, it requires a softwork anyway, so we can easily softfork in the stricter rules if desired
458 2014-10-26 09:03:06 <Luke-Jr> and we could have it preemptively if we just use 2 as a bit - it reduces the limited-area to 1/32 of the version numbers rather than most of it
459 2014-10-26 09:03:24 <sipa> hmm
460 2014-10-26 09:03:42 <sipa> we could probably just have all of bip62 apply strictly only to v3 transactions
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462 2014-10-26 09:04:25 <Luke-Jr> yes, that would work too
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662 2014-10-26 13:19:53 <b-itcoinssg> can anyone tell me what the function of length is in def b58decode(v, length) ?
663 2014-10-26 13:20:39 <b-itcoinssg> I want to convert base58 to int, but can't find any existing tools in python, will just have to write one?
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666 2014-10-26 13:22:40 <sipa> there are plenty of implementations of bitcoin's base58 encoding/decoding in python
667 2014-10-26 13:22:44 Informerop has joined
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669 2014-10-26 13:25:46 <b-itcoinssg> hey sipa, yeah I found some, but they all convert from base58 to "decode v into a string of len bytes". Do you know of one the directly converts base58 to int ? if you can't remember one right now that's fine.
670 2014-10-26 13:26:58 <sipa> base58 is by definition something that converts a byte array into a character array
671 2014-10-26 13:27:05 <sipa> the int is only used internally
672 2014-10-26 13:27:21 <sipa> you can reinterpret the byte array as an integer if you need to
673 2014-10-26 13:27:36 <b-itcoinssg> ok
674 2014-10-26 13:27:40 <b-itcoinssg> I'll try that
675 2014-10-26 13:28:10 <sipa> it's a big endian base256 number, basically
676 2014-10-26 13:28:50 HANTI is now known as hanti
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678 2014-10-26 13:29:31 <b-itcoinssg> k
679 2014-10-26 13:31:44 <justanotheruser> b-itcoinssg: what exactly to use that is base 100,000?
680 2014-10-26 13:31:50 <justanotheruser> words?
681 2014-10-26 13:32:24 <b-itcoinssg> you figured it out, I told you it was a simple concept
682 2014-10-26 13:32:30 <b-itcoinssg> :-)
683 2014-10-26 13:32:55 <justanotheruser> there are a lot of words
684 2014-10-26 13:33:00 <justanotheruser> and a lot of really long words
685 2014-10-26 13:34:16 <b-itcoinssg> yes, I have several implementations right now, include word len filtering, and also only base58 chars just to stay congruent to satoshi's rationale
686 2014-10-26 13:34:46 <b-itcoinssg> I post all the results of the trial when I'm done, might not work out, but it's worth a try
687 2014-10-26 13:34:59 <b-itcoinssg> I'll*
688 2014-10-26 13:35:33 <justanotheruser> b-itcoinssg: what does this accomplish though?
689 2014-10-26 13:36:19 <b-itcoinssg> it might make bitcoin addresses easier to identify and perhaps even memorize
690 2014-10-26 13:37:00 <justanotheruser> you have to remember 11 words that are very long
691 2014-10-26 13:37:14 <justanotheruser> *may be very long
692 2014-10-26 13:37:18 <justanotheruser> actually more like 13
693 2014-10-26 13:37:30 <sipa> people shouldn't memorize addresses
694 2014-10-26 13:37:34 <sipa> they shouldn't even see them
695 2014-10-26 13:38:05 mkarrer_ has joined
696 2014-10-26 13:38:59 <b-itcoinssg> yes, may be, what's the harm in trying it out. It's not even at the point where I post it to bitcointalk dev where it will probably get shut down even if it successful, then ofcourse it will get shutdown at the bips proposal if it gets through the initial venting. there's a lot of failure to look forward to
697 2014-10-26 13:39:10 copumpkin has joined
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699 2014-10-26 13:39:32 <sipa> i just think it's completely the wrong direction
700 2014-10-26 13:39:33 ericmuys_ has joined
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702 2014-10-26 13:39:51 <sipa> addresses are intended to be use once; why would you want them make more rememberable? you'll just encourage reusing them
703 2014-10-26 13:39:58 <justanotheruser> think different(R)
704 2014-10-26 13:41:33 hearn has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâ¦)
705 2014-10-26 13:41:59 <b-itcoinssg> maybe just be easier to type, if nothing else. I mean if bitcoin addresses were'nt supposed to incorporate some sort of human friendlyness, why base58 ? Didn't Satoshi take into account letters that could be confused?
706 2014-10-26 13:42:15 <b-itcoinssg> could not*
707 2014-10-26 13:42:30 <sipa> bitcoin addresses weren't even intended to be the normal way of communication payment destinations
708 2014-10-26 13:42:36 fusselwurm_ has joined
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710 2014-10-26 13:42:44 <sipa> they were a backup in case the normal pay-to-IP couldn't be used
711 2014-10-26 13:42:58 <b-itcoinssg> sure
712 2014-10-26 13:42:59 <sipa> and yes, i think satoshi made a mistake in calling them addresses and making them human readable
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716 2014-10-26 13:43:06 <b-itcoinssg> ok
717 2014-10-26 13:43:17 <sipa> and i think we need to get rid of that principle
718 2014-10-26 13:43:22 <sipa> like the payment protocol does
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720 2014-10-26 13:43:31 <sipa> completely hiding the cryptographic material from the user
721 2014-10-26 13:43:44 <sipa> and without encouraging reuse
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726 2014-10-26 13:48:28 <b-itcoinssg> sipa: do have anything in mind developers should be working on in terms of imporving the protocol that is not being worked on?
727 2014-10-26 13:49:31 nuke1989 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
728 2014-10-26 13:49:59 <sipa> why do you want to immediately improve the protocol?
729 2014-10-26 13:50:15 <sipa> start by improving some implementation
730 2014-10-26 13:50:28 ak_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
731 2014-10-26 13:50:30 <sipa> changing the protocol takes ages
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737 2014-10-26 13:50:33 <b-itcoinssg> I want to contribute, doesn't have to be an improvement in the protocol
738 2014-10-26 13:50:41 <b-itcoinssg> i'm asking you for advice
739 2014-10-26 13:51:02 <sipa> what languages do you like to work in?
740 2014-10-26 13:51:11 ak_ has joined
741 2014-10-26 13:51:42 <b-itcoinssg> python optimally, but I can brush up on C/C++ fairly easily
742 2014-10-26 13:52:37 <sipa> there are plenty of python bitcoin projects (libraries, but for example armory also uses python)
743 2014-10-26 13:52:44 <sipa> but none that i'm actively contributing to
744 2014-10-26 13:53:05 <sipa> if you want to work on bitcoin core, it'll likely be C++ (unless some of the test infrastructure which is python)
745 2014-10-26 13:53:50 <b-itcoinssg> ok
746 2014-10-26 13:54:48 <nsh> and also you'll have to join the illuminati, but it's been streamlined now, so shouldn't take long
747 2014-10-26 13:55:31 wallet42 has joined
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749 2014-10-26 13:56:36 <b-itcoinssg> do you have anything specific in mind that needs working on visavis the core code, I remember hearing something about the need for more tests, is that true?
750 2014-10-26 13:57:30 <sipa> there is always need for more tests :)
751 2014-10-26 13:57:44 <b-itcoinssg> k, maybe I'll start there
752 2014-10-26 13:58:09 fusselwurm_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
753 2014-10-26 13:58:19 <sipa> that would be very welcome!
754 2014-10-26 13:58:40 <b-itcoinssg> awesome
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812 2014-10-26 15:08:48 <todam00n> is there a BIP for merged mining?
813 2014-10-26 15:15:19 b_lumenkraft has joined
814 2014-10-26 15:18:03 <netg> all BIPs are listed at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposal
815 2014-10-26 15:19:10 <netg> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merged_mining_specification
816 2014-10-26 15:20:36 <netg> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_MergedMiningScript
817 2014-10-26 15:20:57 Quanttek has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
818 2014-10-26 15:21:58 <netg> http://dot-bit.org/Merged_Mining
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824 2014-10-26 15:28:02 <todam00n> "Coinbase transaction that is in the parent block, linking the AuxPOW block to its parent block"
825 2014-10-26 15:28:04 <todam00n> I don't get this
826 2014-10-26 15:28:38 Shiftos has joined
827 2014-10-26 15:29:18 <todam00n> I don't get why coinbase_txn is needed? couldn't a miner just lie about the coinbase_tx?
828 2014-10-26 15:29:26 <todam00n> it's not part of the block header right?
829 2014-10-26 15:29:49 <todam00n> oh but it affects merkle_root
830 2014-10-26 15:30:59 <todam00n> ahh so this is why coinbase_branch is needed
831 2014-10-26 15:31:01 <todam00n> get it now
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889 2014-10-26 16:44:57 <doomtoshi> Is it scheduled to build a decentralized exchange to trade the sidechains? Like a standalone software
890 2014-10-26 16:46:28 owlhooter_t has joined
891 2014-10-26 16:46:38 <sipa> you don't need an exchange to trade coins across sidechains
892 2014-10-26 16:47:02 hearn has joined
893 2014-10-26 16:47:24 <doomtoshi> sipa: How will the end user do it then?
894 2014-10-26 16:47:37 <Vinnie_win> I hear Jed McCaleb is joining the Bitcoin Foundation to port his advanced MtGox trading platform to sidechains
895 2014-10-26 16:48:29 <sipa> doomtoshi: nothing exists; talking about how emd users will do.something is way too early
896 2014-10-26 16:49:12 <sipa> but coins can be traded across sidechains using atomic swaps or pegged transfers
897 2014-10-26 16:49:54 <sipa> as they are pegged, there is no floating exchange rate, and thus no need for a market
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950 2014-10-26 17:28:16 Adlai has joined
951 2014-10-26 17:28:24 tens0rpan has joined
952 2014-10-26 17:28:35 <tens0rpan> has anyone read the paper on related random event attacks?
953 2014-10-26 17:33:08 saulimus has joined
954 2014-10-26 17:33:14 <tens0rpan> in particular the privelage escalation attack propositions?
955 2014-10-26 17:36:48 <justanotheruser> 13:28 < justanotheruser> tens0rlam: what is the title?
956 2014-10-26 17:37:49 theclaw has joined
957 2014-10-26 17:37:54 <theclaw> hello
958 2014-10-26 17:38:48 <theclaw> when compiling bitcoind for debugging, should I configure it with '--disable-hardening'? When using '--enable-debug', I get the warning '_FORTIFY_SOURCE requires compiling with optimization'
959 2014-10-26 17:38:58 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
960 2014-10-26 17:39:49 <theclaw> might hardening be useful for debugging purposes?
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964 2014-10-26 17:43:54 <sipa> no
965 2014-10-26 17:44:10 <theclaw> sipa: thanks
966 2014-10-26 17:44:33 <sipa> hardening is extra protection against buffer overflows etc
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968 2014-10-26 17:48:20 <theclaw> sipa: I wondered whether buffer overflow detection might be useful for debugging
969 2014-10-26 17:48:52 <theclaw> sipa: i.e., whether it might reveal problems during development
970 2014-10-26 17:48:53 <sipa> well if you're changing code and think a buffer overflow may have been introduced: sure
971 2014-10-26 17:49:37 <sipa> but the type of code used doesn't usually result in such bugs
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976 2014-10-26 18:00:06 <theclaw> sipa: I see, thanks
977 2014-10-26 18:00:16 <tens0rpan> are private keys on hardware wallets deterministically calculated?
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980 2014-10-26 18:02:21 <tens0rpan> or is there a more "crypto" oriented dev irc anyone knows about?
981 2014-10-26 18:03:13 <justanotheruser> tens0rpan: for cryptography discussion ##crypto
982 2014-10-26 18:03:27 <tens0rpan> ty ty
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1082 2014-10-26 21:05:04 <netg> /8/10
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1089 2014-10-26 21:14:48 <Iriez> What are the benefits to a altcoin deciding to become a side chain, and if the hash function is diff (sha vs scrypt), what happens to all the miners of the alt coin network who were mining? Does the sidechain become a seperate network?
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1092 2014-10-26 21:16:14 <justanotheruser> Iriez: altcoins don't have a choice. Their source code can just be copied
1093 2014-10-26 21:16:44 <justanotheruser> right now, the only altcoins I can see becomming a sidechain are monero, namecoin and possibly something ethereum like, but better designed
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1098 2014-10-26 21:18:08 <Iriez> Yes, they can be copied, but why would anyone use them? What im trying to figure out is why a altcoin like litecoin would wish to be pegged to btc on a sidechain
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1101 2014-10-26 21:18:59 <Iriez> People have claimed sidechains as the 'altcoin killer', but, what incentive do altcoins have to peg themselves to the btc blockchain as a sidechain?
1102 2014-10-26 21:19:19 <Iriez> Wouldn't it be in their best interest to continue working as their own network?
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1104 2014-10-26 21:19:24 <justanotheruser> Iriez: litecoin itself wont be pegged to bitcoin
1105 2014-10-26 21:19:36 <Iriez> Because there is no incentive?
1106 2014-10-26 21:20:04 <justanotheruser> I don't think there is incentive for either party. Litecoin users have ltc because they think it will do better than btc. same with btc
1107 2014-10-26 21:20:27 <Iriez> Im just trying to wrap my head how this whole process effects the market.
1108 2014-10-26 21:20:44 <Iriez> I understand the concepts of sidechains now, but I do not understand the incentive model
1109 2014-10-26 21:20:56 <justanotheruser> Iriez: well altcoiners like to say "we are better because we broke it in a way that seems good"
1110 2014-10-26 21:21:08 <justanotheruser> now bitcoin can have a sidechain broken in the way ltc is if they like
1111 2014-10-26 21:21:35 <Iriez> But since the sidechain is secured by its own hashing power, and not the hashing power of the bitcoin blockchain, what would be the net positive?
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1113 2014-10-26 21:21:48 <Iriez> (or am I incorrect on that?)
1114 2014-10-26 21:21:54 <justanotheruser> Iriez: probably not. Most sidechains will probably be merge mined with sha256
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1117 2014-10-26 21:22:53 <justanotheruser> but if a good number of users want to use a litecoin network on a sidechain they can
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1119 2014-10-26 21:25:47 <Iriez> but why would they
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1123 2014-10-26 21:26:33 <justanotheruser> Iriez: maybe litecoin scammers have tricked them into thinking scrypt is better
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1126 2014-10-26 21:29:15 <Iriez> Yes, but then wouldnt they just wish to work off their own scrypt network then?
1127 2014-10-26 21:29:26 <Iriez> why would they desire to peg themselves to a sha256 based blockchain?
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1132 2014-10-26 21:31:57 <justanotheruser> Iriez: then you can't pay all the people that accept btc
1133 2014-10-26 21:32:29 <Iriez> So, the benefit is to enable litecoin users to be able to use ltc to pay people in btc?
1134 2014-10-26 21:33:03 <Iriez> does this mean that sidechains are just a simple way to provide cross currency exchange?
1135 2014-10-26 21:33:07 <justanotheruser> Iriez: the benefit isn't to litecoin. Litecoin itself isn't involved
1136 2014-10-26 21:33:16 <Iriez> yes, but in theory.
1137 2014-10-26 21:33:33 <Iriez> 'if' litecoin decided to become pegged
1138 2014-10-26 21:33:44 <justanotheruser> litecoin doesn't decide to become pegged
1139 2014-10-26 21:33:57 <justanotheruser> a network like litecoins using scrypt would be a sidechain
1140 2014-10-26 21:34:13 <Iriez> So your saying LTC as it exists now, can never exist as a sidechain?
1141 2014-10-26 21:34:35 <Iriez> it would have to be a clone?
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1143 2014-10-26 21:34:43 <justanotheruser> it could if for some reason people accepted inflation in their sidechain and ltc hardforked, but that probably wont happen
1144 2014-10-26 21:34:56 <Iriez> Yes yes yes, im talking theory here
1145 2014-10-26 21:35:00 <Iriez> just go with me
1146 2014-10-26 21:35:13 <Iriez> im trying to understand theory and application
1147 2014-10-26 21:35:23 <Iriez> i cannot do that unless we assume the unlikely
1148 2014-10-26 21:35:35 <justanotheruser> Iriez: if I like how the ltc network works, I would create a scrypt sidechain and send my money to it
1149 2014-10-26 21:36:10 <Iriez> But, LTC 'could' fork and have its main repro become a sidechain, yes?
1150 2014-10-26 21:36:41 <Iriez> and then you could exchange ltc for btc and back
1151 2014-10-26 21:36:57 <justanotheruser> Iriez: the coins would only be valid to some crazy guys on some sidechain who let their bitcoins be diluted by ltc
1152 2014-10-26 21:37:11 <justanotheruser> you could have asset exchanges on shared sidechains, but the ltc wouldn't be btc
1153 2014-10-26 21:37:21 <justanotheruser> you can have asset exchanges without sidechains though
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1155 2014-10-26 21:39:55 <Iriez> the more I learn, the more confused I get. :)
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1157 2014-10-26 21:42:01 <justanotheruser> Iriez: you read the whitepaper?
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1176 2014-10-26 22:07:14 <Iriez> justanotheruser: yes.
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1183 2014-10-26 22:21:57 <sipa> Iriez: the benefit of becoming a sidechain is that you get a currency with actual users
1184 2014-10-26 22:22:00 <sipa> like, value
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1192 2014-10-26 22:30:04 <Iriez> what if your altcoin already has a established base of users?
1193 2014-10-26 22:30:12 <Iriez> there would be no incentive then, yes?
1194 2014-10-26 22:31:57 <sipa> apart that maybe your users would now prefer an altchain that is a sidechain
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1196 2014-10-26 22:32:00 <sipa> but maybe not
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1198 2014-10-26 22:32:58 <BlueMatt> Iriez: afaik, there are no altcoins that have an established user base that is anywhere near bitcoin's...and especially not ones which have any kind of technically interesting features (which is why anyone would move their bitcoins to the sidechain anyway)
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1204 2014-10-26 22:34:38 <sipa> if you have an altcoin whose purpose is make the creator rich, you have no reason to make it a sidechain :)
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1215 2014-10-26 22:43:22 <Iriez> "Then, in the longer
1216 2014-10-26 22:43:22 <Iriez> 160
1217 2014-10-26 22:43:22 <Iriez> term, the success of the changes in the sidechain would provide the needed confidence to change
1218 2014-10-26 22:43:22 <Iriez> the parent chain, if and when it is deemed necessary to do so.
1219 2014-10-26 22:43:42 <Iriez> Wouldnt the core then just NOT introduce the changes and allow the sidechain to flourish?
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1221 2014-10-26 22:43:59 <Iriez> since it had done such a good job of providing a mechanism for new technological features?
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1223 2014-10-26 22:44:18 <Iriez> Or would that be a threat to the bitcoin core itself, in that a sidechain becomes more heavily mined than the parent chain?
1224 2014-10-26 22:44:31 <sipa> incorporating them in the main chain has advantages, like no longer needing slow and possible insecure transfers
1225 2014-10-26 22:44:41 <Iriez> is that even possible? that a side chain has more hashing power than the parent?
1226 2014-10-26 22:44:48 <sipa> yes
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1228 2014-10-26 22:44:53 <Iriez> ok.
1229 2014-10-26 22:44:57 <sipa> but mining power != usage
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1232 2014-10-26 22:45:45 <Iriez> Well, if a sidechain has these great features that attracts the majority of consensus (mining) then wouldnt it just become the parent chain in theory?
1233 2014-10-26 22:46:11 <sipa> that's also possible - and fine
1234 2014-10-26 22:46:16 <Iriez> if the parent chain introduced the changes the sidechain has, wouldnt it have a difficult time convincing everyone to switch, since the majority is already using the sidechain?
1235 2014-10-26 22:46:39 <Iriez> and then wouldnt that centralize bitcoin to a new party? effectively creating a coup?
1236 2014-10-26 22:47:05 <sipa> if the sidechain is controlled by a central party, and people are willing to move their coins there... well, their loss
1237 2014-10-26 22:47:22 <Iriez> hum, so interesting.
1238 2014-10-26 22:47:26 <sipa> i mean
1239 2014-10-26 22:47:34 <sipa> why are people using bitcoin and not paypal?
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1242 2014-10-26 22:47:42 <sipa> maybe exactly because they don't want that central control
1243 2014-10-26 22:47:50 <sipa> (i hope so...)
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1248 2014-10-26 22:49:10 <Iriez> by central control, i guess i mean the developers of the sidechain
1249 2014-10-26 22:49:20 <Iriez> its still decentralized as there's still a consensus needed
1250 2014-10-26 22:49:27 <Iriez> but it would change the 'leadership'
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1252 2014-10-26 22:49:45 <sipa> well control is ultimately whomever runs the full nodes for the system
1253 2014-10-26 22:50:00 <sipa> those who do don't necessarily need to agree with the developers
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1256 2014-10-26 22:50:44 <Iriez> correct and understood
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1293 2014-10-26 23:48:45 <Iriez> If ring signatures like what is used in monero were introduced as a side chain asset, would it help for bitcoin security? If a assest is held in a locked state, and when the asset is returned from the side chain to the parent chain, wouldnt it then go back to the original addressed used in the lock (or a address specified to be released once unlocked) ?
1294 2014-10-26 23:48:56 <Iriez> er, bitcoin privacy* (not security)
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1296 2014-10-26 23:49:40 <Iriez> i was just thinking that zerocash as a sidechain would not improve privacy as when you convert it back to btc it would just go back to the original linked address?
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1300 2014-10-26 23:56:34 <sipa> duh
1301 2014-10-26 23:56:59 <sipa> whatever advantages or disadvantages a sidechain offers only apply for coins while they are in the sidechain
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