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4 2014-10-27 00:04:09 <Iriez> Will exchanges be able to interface with sidechain assets the same way they do with current alt coins?
5 2014-10-27 00:05:02 <justanotheruser> sipa: ?
6 2014-10-27 00:05:34 <justanotheruser> It shouldn't go back to the original linked address, you should be able to redeem it from the set of outputs paying to that sidechain if my understanding is right
7 2014-10-27 00:06:00 <sipa> when doing a transfer, the locking transaction should specify the script to which it can be unlocked on the other side
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11 2014-10-27 00:07:27 <justanotheruser> sipa: right, and the redeem script should verify that you are only taking as much money from the paid-to-sidechain output set as the sidechain specifies you had there.
12 2014-10-27 00:07:33 <sipa> indeed
13 2014-10-27 00:08:03 <justanotheruser> It shouldn't be constrained to the last-received-address paying to the sidechain as I think Iriez was implying when he said 19:41 < Iriez> i was just thinking that zerocash as a sidechain would not improve privacy as when you convert it back to btc it would just go back to the original linked address?
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16 2014-10-27 00:10:40 <sipa> oh
17 2014-10-27 00:10:43 <sipa> i missed that
18 2014-10-27 00:10:44 <sipa> sorry
19 2014-10-27 00:11:00 <sipa> no, the other side gets to specify who can unlock on the original side
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21 2014-10-27 00:13:58 <justanotheruser> I'm excited for sidechains to be OT in -wizards :)
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24 2014-10-27 00:20:05 <Iriez> So, then it CAN improve privacy?
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27 2014-10-27 00:20:29 <Iriez> you could conver to zerocash, and then back to btc, and retain the anonyminity?
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29 2014-10-27 00:21:10 <sipa> well yes, but that's not better than an advanced mixer
30 2014-10-27 00:21:13 <justanotheruser> Iriez: you are anonymous within that set
31 2014-10-27 00:21:23 <sipa> zerocash has actual anonimity, while the coins are there
32 2014-10-27 00:21:30 <Iriez> basically, can you transfer btc to a sidechain, and then on the conversion back to btc have it be untainted towards the original sending address from parent to chain?
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34 2014-10-27 00:21:48 <Iriez> 'advanced mixer' = 3rd party
35 2014-10-27 00:22:01 <Iriez> i was thinking of a decentralized way to mix coins.
36 2014-10-27 00:22:08 <sipa> if you send it back to the original sender, you lose all advantage you hoped to gain
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38 2014-10-27 00:22:20 <sipa> at least send it to a new address of yourself (which you should be doing anyway...)
39 2014-10-27 00:22:43 <Iriez> Yes, but within the proofs does the returning of funds to the parent chain require there to be a demonstratable link between the originating address?
40 2014-10-27 00:23:09 <Iriez> is the information in the spv proof public, in that one could ascertain the returning funds are linked
41 2014-10-27 00:23:24 <sipa> no
42 2014-10-27 00:23:35 <Iriez> then thats super cool.
43 2014-10-27 00:23:36 <sipa> you would obviously unlock different coins
44 2014-10-27 00:23:48 <Iriez> (obviously, heh.)
45 2014-10-27 00:23:52 <Iriez> obvious to you maybe :P
46 2014-10-27 00:24:10 <sipa> well, otherwise it's sending coins into a mixer, and getting the same coins back
47 2014-10-27 00:24:18 <sipa> that's not really helpful :p
48 2014-10-27 00:24:48 <Iriez> yes, im just trying to analyze benefits of zerocash as a alt coin vs zerocash as a sidechain
49 2014-10-27 00:25:03 <sipa> not needing an exchange
50 2014-10-27 00:25:04 <justanotheruser> Iriez: it isn't completely known that if you put 1btc in and take 1btc out 10 minutes later that they're yours, but one can guess that they're yours fairly easily
51 2014-10-27 00:25:21 <Iriez> yes, one could guess, but is there cryptographic proof?
52 2014-10-27 00:25:30 <Iriez> demonstrable knowledge of taint.
53 2014-10-27 00:25:35 <justanotheruser> you can construct one yourself
54 2014-10-27 00:25:49 <justanotheruser> only for your own tx I mean
55 2014-10-27 00:26:00 <Iriez> construct through circumstancial evidence, or crypto proof?
56 2014-10-27 00:26:09 <Iriez> just because A sent one and B received one is not proof
57 2014-10-27 00:26:46 <justanotheruser> Iriez: I am saying only the person transacting those coins can construct a proof
58 2014-10-27 00:26:52 <Iriez> Ah, okay
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60 2014-10-27 00:27:03 <Iriez> yes, because only they have the keys to publish the info
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63 2014-10-27 00:27:41 <sipa> cryptography isn't relevant; even in bitcoin today nobody can prove that you own coins after sending them to a new address
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66 2014-10-27 00:27:59 <sipa> you could have sent them to yourself or to someone else
67 2014-10-27 00:28:07 <Iriez> yes, but there's a trail, and that is proof
68 2014-10-27 00:28:14 <Iriez> im asking if there is _no trail_
69 2014-10-27 00:28:19 <Iriez> is the taint removed.
70 2014-10-27 00:28:20 <sipa> there is no trail
71 2014-10-27 00:28:26 <Iriez> :)
72 2014-10-27 00:29:05 <Iriez> so then the real risk is that if you send your coisn to the sidechain, the only way you can lose them is if that chain is 51% attacked or you expose your keys somehow
73 2014-10-27 00:29:19 <sipa> or you're the only one using the sidechain :p
74 2014-10-27 00:29:33 <Iriez> Yea, but that'd be silly :P
75 2014-10-27 00:30:10 <sipa> well, if government outlaws the use to the zerocoin sidechain, and the only ones using it will still be outlaws
76 2014-10-27 00:30:20 <sipa> trail or no trail
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79 2014-10-27 00:30:35 <Iriez> i doubt they could do that (USA). financial privacy is not a crime
80 2014-10-27 00:31:01 <Iriez> regulators might attempt to prevent it on county or state levels, but federally i doubt it would/could ever happen
81 2014-10-27 00:31:05 <justanotheruser> Iriez: the thing about outlawing something is that it makes it a crime
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84 2014-10-27 00:31:46 <Iriez> I want to outlaw outlawing, so all outlaws become civilians.
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94 2014-10-27 00:44:14 <helmholtz> Hello all. I'm trying to build bitcoin 0.9.3 from source on ubuntu 12.04 and having trouble. I am getting the following error when running make
95 2014-10-27 00:44:20 <helmholtz> In file included from util.cpp:71:0: /usr/include/boost/program_options/detail/config_file.hpp: In instantiation of âbool boost::program_options::detail::basic_config_file_iterator<charT>::getline(std::string&) [with charT = char; std::string = std::basic_string<char>]â: util.cpp:1437:1: required from here /usr/include/boost/program_options/detail/config_file.hpp:163:13: error: âto_internalâ was not declared in this
96 2014-10-27 00:44:37 <helmholtz> if anyone can point me in the right direction it would be greatly apprecaited
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320 2014-10-27 08:34:01 * Luke-Jr wonders why the Mac build succeeded with miner_tests missing
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332 2014-10-27 08:58:05 <wumpus> it doesn't test anything
333 2014-10-27 09:00:40 <sipa> but for the others, it's building that fails
334 2014-10-27 09:00:49 <sipa> ah, maybe the test isn't even built on osx
335 2014-10-27 09:02:50 <sipa> wumpus: i'm trying to get libsecp256k1 in a state where i'm fine with it being used for signing in bitcoin core (which shouldn't be security critical, as we'd still use openssl for verifying that what is signed is valid)
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337 2014-10-27 09:05:42 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: surely it should still *build* the tests?
338 2014-10-27 09:09:17 <wumpus> sipa: okay, makes sense to do that as first step for secp256k1 integration
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340 2014-10-27 09:10:50 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: right, that's what you'd expect - I don't see anything excluding *building* the tests in .travis.yml
341 2014-10-27 09:11:11 <wumpus> the only effect of RUN_TESTS is that it will run make check
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354 2014-10-27 09:28:09 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: anything I can rebase or otherwise do before I go to sleep, to help get things merged? ;)
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357 2014-10-27 09:30:44 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: #5077?
358 2014-10-27 09:31:27 <Luke-Jr> k, 1 min
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366 2014-10-27 09:43:33 <Luke-Jr> sipa: wumpus: re leveldb update - does it break downgrading?
367 2014-10-27 09:43:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: shouldn't
368 2014-10-27 09:43:56 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: from my review of the leveldb changes: no , haven't tested though
369 2014-10-27 09:43:58 <Luke-Jr> I assume someone competent reviewed it for potential problematic fixes?
370 2014-10-27 09:44:05 <Luke-Jr> k
371 2014-10-27 09:44:14 <sipa> i went over the changes yes, there's nothing fundamental
372 2014-10-27 09:44:37 <sipa> going from old to new or new to old will result in the existing bloom filters to be ignored
373 2014-10-27 09:44:39 <wumpus> it will not recognize the bloom filter type, but that just means it will ignore it
374 2014-10-27 09:44:43 <wumpus> exacly
375 2014-10-27 09:44:53 <sipa> so you may see a short performance reduction after upgrade or downgrade
376 2014-10-27 09:46:29 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: then again - headers-first changes, which are in the same release, can break downgrading
377 2014-10-27 09:46:38 <Luke-Jr> they can? :o
378 2014-10-27 09:46:57 <Luke-Jr> how so? :|
379 2014-10-27 09:47:08 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/release-notes.md
380 2014-10-27 09:47:51 <wumpus> both the block files and the index are potentially not backward compatible after syncing with 0.10
381 2014-10-27 09:48:05 <sipa> if not fully synced, headersfirst can break stuff
382 2014-10-27 09:48:07 <wumpus> the utxo set should be ok
383 2014-10-27 09:48:12 <Luke-Jr> "Without this your node will need start syncing (or importing from bootstrap.dat) anew afterwards." <-- shouldn't it just reindex? O.o
384 2014-10-27 09:48:25 <Luke-Jr> and wouldn't it be fine as long as it's synced?
385 2014-10-27 09:48:33 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: reindex can't cope with out-of-order blocks in 0.9
386 2014-10-27 09:48:44 <Luke-Jr> why not? O.o
387 2014-10-27 09:48:52 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: so make a backup
388 2014-10-27 09:48:54 <Luke-Jr> oh well, can't fix the past I guess.. but strange
389 2014-10-27 09:50:03 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: 5077 rebased with change requested
390 2014-10-27 09:51:09 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I guess you can get quite far with a reindex after downgrade - it will just ignore blocks that it can't accept, so there will be a bit of waste of space, but after that it will just start resyncing
391 2014-10-27 09:51:29 <Luke-Jr> I would have thought it'd put them in the orphan pool
392 2014-10-27 09:51:37 <wumpus> no, orphans are network code only
393 2014-10-27 09:51:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and use 25 GB of ram?
394 2014-10-27 09:51:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: exactly!
395 2014-10-27 09:51:53 * sipa has only 24 GB in his laptop :(
396 2014-10-27 09:52:01 <Luke-Jr> me too
397 2014-10-27 09:52:10 <Luke-Jr> but thankfully, the blockchain is in-order most of the way for me :P
398 2014-10-27 09:52:28 <Luke-Jr> ("me too" being <25 GB; only 16 GB here)
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463 2014-10-27 11:20:15 <jtimon> coryfields_ wumpus regarding #5112, should I make the changes proposed or only add the comment?
464 2014-10-27 11:21:18 <wumpus> jtimon: you shouldn't make the changed proposed there
465 2014-10-27 11:21:37 <wumpus> indeed, just add a comment why the order is as it is
466 2014-10-27 11:22:20 <wumpus> coryfields made a mistake in his comment, which he acknowledges later on
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469 2014-10-27 11:23:04 <jtimon> thanks, just wanted to be sure
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471 2014-10-27 11:25:21 <t7> 24 gig in your laptop :O
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485 2014-10-27 11:39:00 <sipa> wumpus: ugh, why does serialize.h need to have a special case for CScript
486 2014-10-27 11:39:18 <sipa> it's pretty ugly that our lowest level headers-only file depends on a core data structure...
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488 2014-10-27 11:39:40 <sipa> seems there's not really a solution to that except making CScript not inherit from vector
489 2014-10-27 11:39:47 <sipa> ... which seems like a bad idea anyway
490 2014-10-27 11:39:59 <sipa> you shouldn't extend stl contains
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492 2014-10-27 11:40:32 <Luke-Jr> you shouldn't?
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494 2014-10-27 11:40:49 <wumpus> right, it would be good to split the script logic between data storage and functions that act on it
495 2014-10-27 11:41:07 <sipa> yes, that too, but that's not what i mean
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497 2014-10-27 11:41:24 <sipa> i mean have a CScript that just has a vector as member, rather than extending it
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499 2014-10-27 11:41:34 <wumpus> couldn't we move the parts of serialize.h that depend on CScript to where CScript is declared?
500 2014-10-27 11:41:37 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that's the whole point of classes in C++ ! :P
501 2014-10-27 11:41:39 <jtimon> sipa I assume you prefer composition in this case? Or just CScript to not depend on std::vector at all?
502 2014-10-27 11:41:50 <sipa> jtimon: i mean composition, indeed
503 2014-10-27 11:41:59 <sipa> wumpus: nope
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505 2014-10-27 11:42:40 <sipa> wumpus: because script extends vector, and serialize has a special case for vector, you get an ambiguous template error without an explicit case for CScript too
506 2014-10-27 11:43:16 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: no, it's not - the point of classes is to allow abstracting interfaces, there's nothing that forces every single data item to be a self-contained class
507 2014-10-27 11:43:31 <wumpus> sipa: ugh, right
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509 2014-10-27 11:43:49 <sipa> jtimon: at some point having a Cscript that does not fix the storage layer at all, which would be nice for example for a CTransaction that just uses a single allocated blob for all scripts and inputs and outputs
510 2014-10-27 11:43:50 <sipa> jtimon: but that's a larger change
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514 2014-10-27 11:45:00 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: forcing every script operation to act on a CScript (or std::vector) can force dynamic allocation where it's not needed, ie in cases where the operation could be done in-memory in-place
515 2014-10-27 11:45:48 <Luke-Jr> forced dynamic allocation where it's not needed is kinda what C++ does <.<
516 2014-10-27 11:45:55 <wumpus> on a (start,size) "slice" of memory
517 2014-10-27 11:46:18 <Luke-Jr> sure, we could do it that way, but then it's just C :p
518 2014-10-27 11:46:41 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: there is nothing in c++ forcing you to do that, you can use C++ as a better C (which allows RAII and such)
519 2014-10-27 11:46:58 <Luke-Jr> I know âº
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521 2014-10-27 11:47:22 <jtimon> I was planning on separating the OPs in (inlined?) functions on script/interpreter in a similar way as in https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/commit/78edf5cb8cf65caf38080ac57040469cc9c6957f for p2p messages
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523 2014-10-27 11:47:45 <Luke-Jr> just expressing that it feels ugly to separate data store from actions on that data store, in C++ ; if it still makes sense to do it, that's another matter
524 2014-10-27 11:47:47 <jtimon> but I guess that's after the inheritance -> composition change in CScript
525 2014-10-27 11:49:06 <Luke-Jr> otoh, I guess CScript's "data" could just be pointers to other data just as well - maybe that's what you had in mind
526 2014-10-27 11:49:37 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes, just a pointer and size
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530 2014-10-27 11:52:12 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: leveldb has the leveldb::slice type for this
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536 2014-10-27 12:02:13 <jtimon> github says #5100 needs manual rebase but but it doesn't
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543 2014-10-27 12:06:47 <b-itcoinssg> Are these still valid instructions for creating and submitting tests https://github.com/bitcoin/QA/blob/master/TestPlanCreation.md
544 2014-10-27 12:06:58 <b-itcoinssg> or is there a newer versin
545 2014-10-27 12:07:02 <b-itcoinssg> version*
546 2014-10-27 12:08:01 <b-itcoinssg> it doesn't seem to have been updated since jan 2013
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549 2014-10-27 12:10:22 <wumpus> b-itcoinssg: yes, still as valid as ever
550 2014-10-27 12:10:45 <wumpus> feel free to submit pulls to that repository if you feel things are out of date
551 2014-10-27 12:11:14 <sipa> heh, i forgot we had that
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553 2014-10-27 12:12:37 <b-itcoinssg> ok
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557 2014-10-27 12:15:18 <sipa> jtimon: 5100 doesn't merge cleanly here
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559 2014-10-27 12:15:41 <sipa> merge conflict in txmempool
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566 2014-10-27 12:23:34 <jtimon> sipa, ok, not anymore, I had just rebased on top of d9702bcf Merge pull request #5115
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570 2014-10-27 12:31:09 <Adlai> "a chain with more work which does not include the block which created the output" - does this need to include every transaction in the first block(s) of the DMMS, to prove that the output in question was not present?
571 2014-10-27 12:31:33 <Adlai> (from line 208, page 8 of http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf )
572 2014-10-27 12:32:53 <sipa> Adlai: for a reorg proof it suffices to show that another chain exists, which does not include the claimed block
573 2014-10-27 12:34:12 <Adlai> sipa: couldn't the transaction to the SPV-locked output have made it into a block in the second chain too?
574 2014-10-27 12:34:24 <jtimon> it may actually include the same transaction but i the block doesn't exist in another longesr chain the SPV proof is not valid
575 2014-10-27 12:34:55 <sipa> indeed; the original SPV proof is refuted by the reorg proof; the original sender can always come up with a new SPV proof for the new block, if that does include the transaction too
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577 2014-10-27 12:35:45 <sipa> (which is overall way cheaper than needing to give the entire list of txids in the block)
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579 2014-10-27 12:37:59 <Adlai> ok, that makes sense. so in a situation where a reorganization happens but there's no double-spend attempt, the entity that provided the now-invalid SPV proof will be incentivized to produce the new proof, to be able to spend in the sidechain?
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583 2014-10-27 12:41:30 * Adlai wonders also whether transferring assets through an atomic swap would be cheaper or not; on one hand, the atomic swap transactions themselves are smaller, and require smaller fees; but liquidity providers could charge for the convenience of not waiting the confirmation and contest periods
584 2014-10-27 12:42:19 <wumpus> it wouldn't necessarily be cheaper, just faster
585 2014-10-27 12:42:49 <Luke-Jr> Adlai: in ideal situations, nobody would bother with a reorg proof for an output that remains valid in both chains
586 2014-10-27 12:43:33 <Luke-Jr> ⦠unless failure to do so would result in the sidechain believing it lost bitcoins â¦
587 2014-10-27 12:45:14 <jtimon> note that this is applicable to SPV wallets as well, if they receive a longer header chain, now they want new proofs of inclusion for their transaction in the new merkle tree
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606 2014-10-27 13:09:35 <Adlai> could a reorg proof be strengthened to a "fraud proof" by including cryptographic proof of a different transaction spending the same input used in the original SPV proof, proving that a double spend was attempted?
607 2014-10-27 13:10:44 <Adlai> the original transaction becomes invalid by having its input(s) spent elsewhere, thus proving exclusion from the reorganized chain
608 2014-10-27 13:12:38 <Luke-Jr> Adlai: what's the point?
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610 2014-10-27 13:13:42 <Luke-Jr> Adlai: even if the reorg doesn't double-spend it, you still want to cancel the redemption
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613 2014-10-27 13:19:30 <Adlai> fewer proofs in the fraud-free case, an inclusion proof would be considered valid unless an _ex_clusion proof could be produced
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615 2014-10-27 13:20:41 <Adlai> although I guess SPV proof -> reorg proof -> new SPV proof is more watertight
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629 2014-10-27 13:27:01 <b-itcoinssg> in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/qa/rpc-tests, what does "Bash-based tests, to be ported to Python:" mean? Are you asking someone to do it or preparing people for code that is on its way(i.e already written)?
630 2014-10-27 13:27:20 <sipa> afaik nobody is doing that
631 2014-10-27 13:27:46 <b-itcoinssg> ok, good to hear
632 2014-10-27 13:27:59 <b-itcoinssg> I'll probably start there
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657 2014-10-27 13:56:32 <gavinandresen> b-itcoinssg: porting the bash tests to the python test_framework.py style of doing things is an excellent place to start!
658 2014-10-27 13:57:11 <gavinandresen> b-itcoinssg: I started in bash to try to minimize dependencies, but it is just too painful to write tests in bash (too many weird quoting rules to remember, too much weird syntax....)
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660 2014-10-27 13:58:09 <b-itcoinssg> gavinandersen: excellent
661 2014-10-27 13:58:11 <b-itcoinssg> will do
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670 2014-10-27 14:10:44 <wumpus> yes, bash code is just too fragile, and it becomes a mess if you want robust error handling; and then you have the people that insist on not using bash but some other shell, making things even worse
671 2014-10-27 14:12:15 * helo insists on using a ruby interpreter to execute the python test framework
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673 2014-10-27 14:14:21 <wumpus> helo: yes, phew, let's be happy that ruby and python don't have (usable) language subset that is valid in both and everything becomes restricted to using
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701 2014-10-27 14:48:36 <helo> pthere is a language subset between python 2 and python 3 that fits that criteria, but few people restrict themselves to it
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708 2014-10-27 14:49:19 <wumpus> yes
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718 2014-10-27 14:57:19 <wumpus> maybe for CScript it makes sense to split into multiple concerns a) Building scripts (ScriptBuilder? MutableScript?) b) Holding script data in data structures, this could just be a typedeffed std::vector<unsigned char> c) A read-only script type to pass to IsPayToScriptHash, IsPushOnly, EvalScript and such, the backing does not need to be a std::vector, but can easily be converted from one, like a leveldb::slice
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842 2014-10-27 18:17:20 <chmod755> There was an error submitting the translation. Reload <- is it just me or is there an issue with Transifex?
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855 2014-10-27 18:37:41 <coryfields_> sipa: ping wrt the above cscript complaint
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861 2014-10-27 18:45:26 <coryfields_> sipa: i've been working on a storage class that wraps std vector/array, with the intention of creating a "tagged binary storage" concept for common classes. imo it'd help a good bit with modularization, but others may see it as too much abstraction overhead
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865 2014-10-27 18:52:44 <extor> coryfields in PHP?
866 2014-10-27 18:53:35 <coryfields_> ?
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882 2014-10-27 19:06:55 <extor> Is there any way of doing coding gigs without signing up at a miserable place like guru or freelancer? I'm assuming you have to be 1) Chummy with some well financed operation and 2) Extremely advanced in a narrow niche and/or with 10-20 years of experience turning out quality apps or 3) Willing to code for the "ewwww tier" operations like camwhore sites, spam factories and captcha farms?
883 2014-10-27 19:06:55 <extor> Just looking for people who need some decent coding done
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886 2014-10-27 19:12:33 <justanotheruser> extor: if you have experience apply to some bitcoin companies? Theres also getafreelancer. This should probably be discussed in #bitcoin-otc though.
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892 2014-10-27 19:19:28 <extor> otc is offtopic?
893 2014-10-27 19:19:45 <justanotheruser> extor: this is a bitcoin development discussion channel
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896 2014-10-27 19:23:21 <extor> bitcoin apps are usually quite complex
897 2014-10-27 19:23:26 <extor> and fine tunes
898 2014-10-27 19:23:30 <extor> especially the mining apps
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905 2014-10-27 19:25:48 <BlueMatt> wumpus: which of jgarzik's commits were signed with that key?
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907 2014-10-27 19:26:23 <BlueMatt> wumpus: his most recent few merges were unsigned
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913 2014-10-27 19:32:09 <BlueMatt> someone want to reopen #5028
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926 2014-10-27 19:45:27 <wumpus> BlueMatt: a0a8700 135a43d 76bc6cb 309aa76 and quite a few more
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931 2014-10-27 19:49:16 <BlueMatt> wumpus: thanks, I just didnt see him signing any recent commits, so I moved on
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937 2014-10-27 19:52:21 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: can you use a semi-consistent pgp key?
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939 2014-10-27 19:52:52 <BlueMatt> @exmulti (which is the one on bitcoin.org) hasnt even signed @pobox (which you appear to be using to sign commits)
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942 2014-10-27 19:52:58 <BlueMatt> also, there is the @bitpay one...
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949 2014-10-27 19:55:51 <chmod755> <chmod755> There was an error submitting the translation. Reload <- is it just me or is there an issue with Transifex? << repeating myself
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976 2014-10-27 20:32:05 <dgenr8> BlueMatt: you're a fast reader ;)
977 2014-10-27 20:32:35 <BlueMatt> dgenr8: skim + relate to existing ideas :p
978 2014-10-27 20:33:33 <dgenr8> your concern is that double-spend information is local, because not relayed?
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982 2014-10-27 20:34:08 <BlueMatt> its local, because speed-of-light
983 2014-10-27 20:34:14 <BlueMatt> but also not relayed
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985 2014-10-27 20:35:37 <dgenr8> then i'm surprised you aren't bothered that node's clock is also local ;)
986 2014-10-27 20:36:05 <BlueMatt> there is a large margin for error there, which is ok
987 2014-10-27 20:36:19 <BlueMatt> if it werent for that, then, yes, I'd be very bothered
988 2014-10-27 20:36:57 <dgenr8> thanks BlueMatt
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991 2014-10-27 20:37:29 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: he's complaining about attacks where you send all competing miners random double spends. all concurrently, then laugh all the way to the bank as they orphan each other. (and worse enjoy the fireworks as all the non-mining users are confused by the network constantly reorging)
992 2014-10-27 20:38:05 <gmaxwell> (and even if they are agressively connecting to everything, there is always some amount of race where you didn't notice quite fast enough.
993 2014-10-27 20:38:08 <gmaxwell> )
994 2014-10-27 20:38:25 <wumpus> chmod755: possible, although I've not heard other complaints about transifex yet
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998 2014-10-27 20:40:21 <dgenr8> gmaxwell: i'm impressed that all those miners were able to generate blocks simultaneously
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1002 2014-10-27 20:42:19 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I didn't say that had. An abusive party can make nodes widely ignore varrious blocks, this will result in reorgs as other blocks are created later (e.g. the attacker's blocks)
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1005 2014-10-27 20:44:20 <dgenr8> if I were a miner, I'd avoid the whole mess and not include any double-spends at all (except much older ones)
1006 2014-10-27 20:46:07 * gmaxwell facepalm
1007 2014-10-27 20:46:26 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: so you'll include no transactions then?
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1011 2014-10-27 20:47:44 <gmaxwell> Someday you will understand that the network is not synchronous, and that you will not have any idea that something is a double-spend for some window of time while other people do. ... if it were somehow synchronous there would be no need for mining at all.
1012 2014-10-27 20:48:12 <dhill> i have $50 in the bank
1013 2014-10-27 20:48:22 <dhill> i write a check for $50 at the store
1014 2014-10-27 20:48:32 <dhill> i wriet a second check for $50 at a different store
1015 2014-10-27 20:48:36 <dhill> :)
1016 2014-10-27 20:49:24 <gmaxwell> (If I was unclear above about including no transactions: The only way to be sure you will not mine something which doesn't exist conflicted elsewhere, known to other parties, is to mine nothing at all)
1017 2014-10-27 20:50:09 <dgenr8> That can happen today
1018 2014-10-27 20:50:24 <dgenr8> and i don't propose trying to prevent it
1019 2014-10-27 20:50:58 <BlueMatt> wumpus: so..what you're saying is...you want to close #2293?
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1022 2014-10-27 20:51:29 <dgenr8> after 30 seconds, everybody agrees pretty well (and I quantify this). After 0 seconds, not so much.
1023 2014-10-27 20:51:32 <wumpus> BlueMatt: huh, yes that's been fixed with the leveldb upgrade
1024 2014-10-27 20:51:55 <BlueMatt> wumpus: :)
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1144 2014-10-27 23:29:52 <brocktice> Hi all, is there a dedicated trezor channel?
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