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  32 2014-10-28 00:52:15 <Genitrust> gmaxwell: oh hey, i'll hit you up in this area instead... since this may be more of a dev chat :)
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  51 2014-10-28 01:23:49 <michagogo> 11:43:45 <Luke-Jr> I would have thought it'd put them in the orphan pool
  52 2014-10-28 01:23:49 <michagogo> 11:43:54 <wumpus> no, orphans are network code only
  53 2014-10-28 01:23:49 <michagogo> 11:43:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and use 25 GB of ram?
  54 2014-10-28 01:24:06 <michagogo> Well, maybe could do something like the updated-for-headers-first linearize
  55 2014-10-28 01:24:22 ak__ has joined
  56 2014-10-28 01:24:36 <michagogo> If an orphan shows up while reindexing, keep its hash and position around in case it's referred to
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  59 2014-10-28 01:31:19 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: not worth the effort probably
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 124 2014-10-28 02:58:00 <sipa> michagogo: that's exactly what we do in master
 125 2014-10-28 02:58:13 <sipa> michagogo: the point is that 0.9 does not do this, so you can't downgrade your datadir, and then reindex
 126 2014-10-28 02:58:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ^
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 157 2014-10-28 03:38:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I meant not worth the effort to do a backport of it to 0.9
 158 2014-10-28 03:38:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i assumed as much, but wasn't sure whether michagogo knew
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 168 2014-10-28 04:00:29 <sipa> TIL: git diff -w
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 170 2014-10-28 04:02:20 <Luke-Jr> yes, -w is useful :p
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 178 2014-10-28 04:12:07 <joeykrug> why does bitcoin load the genesis block into memory and check it upon startup each time?  Is there any reason it couldn't just check blocks/index and check that the genesis hash is the key associated with the block at height 0?
 179 2014-10-28 04:12:53 Raziel has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 180 2014-10-28 04:13:04 <gmaxwell> Is there any reason it shouldn't? treating it more uniformly helpfully catches busted code / machines at start.
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 184 2014-10-28 04:16:34 <joeykrug> I'm working on implementing Peter R's spinoff mechanism and it ends up using quite a bit of memory to load it each time.  I see no reason it shouldn't for reference bitcoin but was interested if there was any specific reason bitcoin-core loaded it that way each time.
 185 2014-10-28 04:17:38 <joeykrug> vs the way i described above, was wondering if there's some specific security reason that prohibits that from being a valid method
 186 2014-10-28 04:17:52 cadaver has joined
 187 2014-10-28 04:19:07 <gmaxwell> it's previously caught miscompilation/other issues and increases uniformity. Otherwise no.  Please don't ask any further altcoin questions in here.
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 190 2014-10-28 04:19:59 <joeykrug> sorry, i didn't intend it as one, I framed my original question in the context as why bitcoin did it as I was genuinely curious, anyway thank you!
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 194 2014-10-28 04:27:28 <kryo_> hey guys i have a serious question
 195 2014-10-28 04:27:57 <kryo_> we are aware of services like API keys to provide limited, revokable access to accounts
 196 2014-10-28 04:28:12 <kryo_> why don't we make API keys for your bitcoins?
 197 2014-10-28 04:29:03 <sipa> you can, if you have an API
 198 2014-10-28 04:29:26 <sipa> but if at the protocol level, that's not possible - it's not a service that protects you but access to cryptographic private keys
 199 2014-10-28 04:29:54 <sipa> which don't need trust in a service to enforce the correct access policy, but through a mechanism that the whole world can independently verify
 200 2014-10-28 04:31:21 Hunger-- has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 201 2014-10-28 04:31:54 <justanotheruser> I wonder if any clients can give you revokation tx that you can enter later
 202 2014-10-28 04:32:46 _till_ has left ()
 203 2014-10-28 04:33:02 <SomeoneWeird> justanotheruser: wat
 204 2014-10-28 04:33:23 <joeykrug> why would you wanna do something like that anyway, what's a use case?
 205 2014-10-28 04:34:51 <sipa> if you'd revoke the key which has access to spend a particular coin... who would get the access instead? another key? that already exists: just the coins to that new key!
 206 2014-10-28 04:35:00 <sipa> *just send the coins
 207 2014-10-28 04:35:56 <kryo_> the original key has "master access" but can issue invoices etc.
 208 2014-10-28 04:36:15 <kryo_> which can then be invalidated.. etc
 209 2014-10-28 04:36:50 <sipa> i don't think you understand how bitcoin works
 210 2014-10-28 04:37:18 <justanotheruser> SomeoneWeird: wat
 211 2014-10-28 04:38:07 Hunger- has joined
 212 2014-10-28 04:38:50 <justanotheruser> SomeoneWeird: you lose access to your keys, lost or stolen and you load up your paper wallet, scan a QR code and you revoke the keys and now your cold wallet key is the actual key
 213 2014-10-28 04:38:55 <justanotheruser> s/actual/used
 214 2014-10-28 04:39:20 <sipa> justanotheruser: yes, you can have a presigned transaction that sends your coins to a vault-protected-private-key address
 215 2014-10-28 04:39:33 <sipa> but you need to update the presigned transaction every time you touch your coins
 216 2014-10-28 04:39:45 <sipa> which makes it pretty impractical
 217 2014-10-28 04:39:50 <Luke-Jr> or use a 1-of-2 multisig maybe
 218 2014-10-28 04:40:09 <CodeShark> or just use 2-of-n to begin with :)
 219 2014-10-28 04:40:52 ionstorm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 220 2014-10-28 04:41:29 <justanotheruser> 1-of-2 means you have to dig up the 2nd key every time though
 221 2014-10-28 04:41:33 <CodeShark> no
 222 2014-10-28 04:41:37 <justanotheruser> wait
 223 2014-10-28 04:41:43 <joeykrug> the point is so you don't have to :)
 224 2014-10-28 04:41:43 <justanotheruser> I mean 2-of-2
 225 2014-10-28 04:42:14 <kryo_> what if i broadcasted to the network: "the string with the following hash can spend 3 of my bitcoins: <insert hash here>"
 226 2014-10-28 04:42:30 <justanotheruser> kyuupichan: what if you do?
 227 2014-10-28 04:42:35 <sipa> kryo_: #bitcoin please; you don't understand how the system works
 228 2014-10-28 04:42:44 <iwilcox> kryo_: Remind me what service you run?
 229 2014-10-28 04:43:21 <justanotheruser> 1-of-2 is almost certainly better because you make so many public key hashes
 230 2014-10-28 04:43:40 <justanotheruser> I was just thinking non-laterally and in the terms of an actual revokation key
 231 2014-10-28 04:43:41 <kryo_> if that message was taken as "official", i would be able to make "API keys" for my bitcoins
 232 2014-10-28 04:43:50 coinheavy has left ()
 233 2014-10-28 04:44:01 <justanotheruser> err wow
 234 2014-10-28 04:44:06 <justanotheruser> revokation address / message
 235 2014-10-28 04:44:08 <sipa> kryo_: that would be a ground-up redesign of bitcoin; please
 236 2014-10-28 04:44:15 <justanotheruser> err wow, I need to go to bed. s/address/tx
 237 2014-10-28 04:44:16 <kryo_> are you sure?
 238 2014-10-28 04:44:28 <joeykrug> kyro_ why not just send the bitcoin to a different address?
 239 2014-10-28 04:44:30 <sipa> please learn how such things would be technically possible first
 240 2014-10-28 04:44:32 <sipa> kryo_: yes
 241 2014-10-28 04:44:36 <joeykrug> then the new address could spend the bitcoin that were previously yours
 242 2014-10-28 04:44:44 <kryo_> because you can't revoke another address
 243 2014-10-28 04:44:56 <CodeShark> kryo_: the script you are suggesting sounds like a typical p2sh or p2ph transaction
 244 2014-10-28 04:44:57 <justanotheruser> kryo_: a revokation is a spending
 245 2014-10-28 04:45:06 <kryo_> you could then broadcast "the string with the hash <insert hash> can no longer spend any of my bitcoins"
 246 2014-10-28 04:45:08 <sipa> kryo_: because bitcoins are not stored at addresses; they're stored in coins
 247 2014-10-28 04:45:16 <Luke-Jr> kryo_: Bitcoin does not have accounts or addresses in the low-level; these are abstractions
 248 2014-10-28 04:45:22 <sipa> kryo_: addresses/scripts are just the access control mechanism on top
 249 2014-10-28 04:45:26 <kryo_> and if they're not already spent, they would be "revoked"
 250 2014-10-28 04:45:33 <sipa> kryo_: please take this elsewherew
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 253 2014-10-28 04:46:04 <sipa> -w
 254 2014-10-28 04:46:08 <kryo_> ok i guess i need to learn the thing about addresses
 255 2014-10-28 04:46:27 <kryo_> but you can sign the message with your address...
 256 2014-10-28 04:46:45 <justanotheruser> kryo_: that is wrong. #bitcoin
 257 2014-10-28 04:46:45 <CodeShark> kryo_: the blockchain is like a huge array of locked glass cases - everyone can see what's inside each case - but you need a key to take anything out of any case. every bitcoin transaction simply opens some cases, removes the entirety of their contents, and sticks them into newly created cases
 258 2014-10-28 04:46:45 fanquake_ has joined
 259 2014-10-28 04:47:01 <CodeShark> that's ALL a bitcoin transaction can do
 260 2014-10-28 04:47:16 <CodeShark> (ignoring generation txs)
 261 2014-10-28 04:47:31 <justanotheruser> CodeShark: generation tx turn sand into glass
 262 2014-10-28 04:47:43 <justanotheruser> :P
 263 2014-10-28 04:47:54 <Luke-Jr> I think kryo_ wants to make a sidechain! <.< :P
 264 2014-10-28 04:47:55 <kryo_> i don't really see how that's relevant...
 265 2014-10-28 04:48:10 <justanotheruser> bitcoin real world analogies :D
 266 2014-10-28 04:48:12 <sipa> kryo_: it's incredibly relevant; addresses don't exist at the protocol level
 267 2014-10-28 04:48:52 <kryo_> well forget about the addresses
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 270 2014-10-28 04:49:17 <CodeShark> an "address" is just a specific encoding for a standard script type that constitutes the lock on the glass case
 271 2014-10-28 04:49:26 * Luke-Jr wonders if the "great ideas that are technically un-doable" fad will ever end
 272 2014-10-28 04:49:39 <kryo_> could you still not give access to some specific coins in your wallet?
 273 2014-10-28 04:49:46 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: It's been going on for a few centuries I assume
 274 2014-10-28 04:49:48 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: meh, that's a stretch since unlocking the glass case has nothing to do with the address
 275 2014-10-28 04:49:50 <sipa> kryo_: yes, with a 1-of-2 multisig
 276 2014-10-28 04:50:00 <sipa> kryo_: but those coins change every time you use them
 277 2014-10-28 04:50:19 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: I like to think in terms of challenge scripts and solution scripts
 278 2014-10-28 04:50:26 <CodeShark> an "address" is an encoding for a challenge script
 279 2014-10-28 04:50:35 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: a scriptPubKey is a challenge script ;)
 280 2014-10-28 04:50:45 <CodeShark> yes :)
 281 2014-10-28 04:50:52 <CodeShark> but "challenge script" is a better name
 282 2014-10-28 04:51:03 <Luke-Jr> and the address is merely an abstraction for "a scriptPubKey within a transaction", which doesn't persist with the UTXO
 283 2014-10-28 04:51:15 <CodeShark> scriptPubKey is a horrendously confusing and outdated name
 284 2014-10-28 04:51:21 <Luke-Jr> "pubkey script" then
 285 2014-10-28 04:51:27 <kryo_> perhaps these coins would need to remain unchanged
 286 2014-10-28 04:51:41 <CodeShark> it needn't even have anything to do with a pubkey, in principle
 287 2014-10-28 04:51:50 <kryo_> and you could issue a signed transaction to someone
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 289 2014-10-28 04:51:53 <sipa> CodeShark: why is it outdated?
 290 2014-10-28 04:51:59 <kryo_> so they could spend the coins at any time...
 291 2014-10-28 04:51:59 <justanotheruser> CodeShark: you are making the same assumption I made a few weeks ago.
 292 2014-10-28 04:52:01 <sipa> CodeShark: it IS the public key of the Bitcoin Script cryptosystem
 293 2014-10-28 04:52:08 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: what sipa said
 294 2014-10-28 04:52:11 <sipa> kryo_: you're again redesigning bitcoin from scratch
 295 2014-10-28 04:52:18 <sipa> kryo_: please learn how the system works
 296 2014-10-28 04:52:33 <iwilcox> Preferably before accepting anyone's money.
 297 2014-10-28 04:52:52 <sipa> i'm sorry to yell at you; the idea is useful, and i'm sure you have good intentions, but it will take way too much time to explain things here
 298 2014-10-28 04:52:57 <kryo_> sipa i believe what i'm currently describing is entirely possible with the current system
 299 2014-10-28 04:52:58 <CodeShark> the public/private key thing is a way to construct a signature scheme - but it is not really what is fundamental about the scripts
 300 2014-10-28 04:53:02 <justanotheruser> sipa: to me it sounds like he hasn't changed a thing at all. He is just rephrasing how the system currently works
 301 2014-10-28 04:53:20 <sipa> kryo_: well, i disagree
 302 2014-10-28 04:53:21 <kryo_> i'm just talking about having an un-broadcasted transaction
 303 2014-10-28 04:53:26 <justanotheruser> except is a more abstract level
 304 2014-10-28 04:53:33 <kryo_> exactly what you were saying like 5 minutes ago
 305 2014-10-28 04:53:46 <sipa> CodeShark: bitcoin script is a digital signature system
 306 2014-10-28 04:53:48 <Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: you can't code in abstract
 307 2014-10-28 04:53:51 <kryo_> iwilcox: you don't need to understand bitcoin to run bitcoind :P
 308 2014-10-28 04:53:52 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: I know
 309 2014-10-28 04:54:11 <justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: but he is basically not proposing anything new, just a multisig timelock combination it sounds like
 310 2014-10-28 04:54:12 DigiByteDev has quit (Quit: DigiByteDev)
 311 2014-10-28 04:54:13 <sipa> CodeShark: the wallet is the private key, the scriptPubKey is the public key, the scriptSig is the signature
 312 2014-10-28 04:54:24 <sipa> (or rather, the keystore is the private key)
 313 2014-10-28 04:54:50 <CodeShark> that doesn't really cover the general scripting case - where authorization could come from other factors besides providing a signature
 314 2014-10-28 04:54:57 <CodeShark> not that bitcoin really supports anything too general
 315 2014-10-28 04:55:03 <justanotheruser> "okay class, please provide the signature for the following public key: '1+1='"
 316 2014-10-28 04:55:04 <CodeShark> but abstractly
 317 2014-10-28 04:55:09 <kryo_> why isn't scriptPubKey just called "pub key"?
 318 2014-10-28 04:55:14 sipa has left ()
 319 2014-10-28 04:55:31 <Luke-Jr> kryo_: because it's a variable of type "script" and we (were) using hungarian notation for variable names
 320 2014-10-28 04:55:33 <CodeShark> the general scripting case is: "if condition X is met, allow Y"
 321 2014-10-28 04:55:49 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: the scriptSig *is* the signature
 322 2014-10-28 04:55:50 <CodeShark> condition X could be "a valid signature is provided"
 323 2014-10-28 04:55:51 <kryo_> oh god C
 324 2014-10-28 04:55:54 * kryo_ shudders
 325 2014-10-28 04:56:14 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: "condition X" is the pub key
 326 2014-10-28 04:56:24 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: ignore ECDSA entirely
 327 2014-10-28 04:56:25 <kryo_> just the convention of putting variable types in variable names...
 328 2014-10-28 04:56:43 <CodeShark> ok, in abstract cryptographic terms you guys are right - but I don't think it's helpful to speak of it in these terms
 329 2014-10-28 04:56:50 ak__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 330 2014-10-28 04:56:55 <CodeShark> for two reasons:
 331 2014-10-28 04:57:01 <justanotheruser> If I hadn't asked the same question, DMMS wouldn't make any sense to me
 332 2014-10-28 04:57:17 <CodeShark> 1) it's prone to be confused for lower-level signature schemes (i.e. ECDSA)
 333 2014-10-28 04:57:24 <iwilcox> kryo_: Please take the whole line of enquiry to #litecoin or #litecoin-dev since this is about your litecoin site.
 334 2014-10-28 04:57:33 * Luke-Jr facepalms
 335 2014-10-28 04:57:36 ak__ has joined
 336 2014-10-28 04:57:43 NewLiberty has joined
 337 2014-10-28 04:57:46 <CodeShark> 2) it's not the language in which most programmers think in
 338 2014-10-28 04:58:03 <kryo_> it's not about my litecoin site iwilcox
 339 2014-10-28 04:58:13 <kryo_> it's just something i thought of
 340 2014-10-28 04:58:25 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: I disagree with those reasons being sufficient to overcome the benefits
 341 2014-10-28 04:58:30 <kryo_> plus #litecoin-dev has like 2 people in it
 342 2014-10-28 04:58:30 <justanotheruser> CodeShark: programmers should be able to think in terms of why something works, not in terms of patterns in how words like "public key" have been defined before.
 343 2014-10-28 04:58:44 <justanotheruser> s/defined/used
 344 2014-10-28 04:59:23 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: failure to think of ScriptPubKey as _the_ pubkey being used (and such) has caused funds loss; it really is a signature cryptosystem all on its own (not too different from attribute based encryption)
 345 2014-10-28 04:59:53 <CodeShark> how has it caused funds loss?
 346 2014-10-28 05:00:43 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: e.g. people matching a hash160 in a scriptpubkey without observing the rest. :(
 347 2014-10-28 05:00:51 <gmaxwell> (bc.i did this, among other things)
 348 2014-10-28 05:01:08 <justanotheruser> the concept of DMMS' blew my mind. A PoW is actually a miners signature o_O
 349 2014-10-28 05:01:52 <CodeShark> without observing the rest?
 350 2014-10-28 05:02:29 <CodeShark> you mean you just searched for 20 consecutive bytes that match your hash160?
 351 2014-10-28 05:02:41 <CodeShark> without checking what bytes came before or after?
 352 2014-10-28 05:02:52 <gmaxwell> pretty much (at a particular position, without checking what came after)
 353 2014-10-28 05:03:19 <CodeShark> I would argue that it is precisely *thinking of the scriptPubKey AS THE PUBKEY* is what caused your loss
 354 2014-10-28 05:03:20 <iwilcox> Code is hard.  Let's just do it with grep, then go shopping.
 355 2014-10-28 05:03:25 pen has joined
 356 2014-10-28 05:03:49 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: precisely not, no one sane would ever think you can go around matching some random bytes in the middle of a public key and do anything useful with it.
 357 2014-10-28 05:04:00 Papaya117 is now known as stapler117
 358 2014-10-28 05:04:42 <gmaxwell> in any case, it's really the design of the system... and script can (and likely, some day will) be used outside of bitcoin as a signature cryptosystem to great benefit.
 359 2014-10-28 05:05:20 <CodeShark> the hash160 is NOT the pubkey, though - it's just a strange historical quirk that we decided to use this hash160 as a representative for an entire script…a move that only saves us a couple of bytes
 360 2014-10-28 05:05:34 <CodeShark> rather than just using the script in its entirety
 361 2014-10-28 05:05:49 <Luke-Jr> using the script in its entirety would be dangerous, at least with base58
 362 2014-10-28 05:05:57 <CodeShark> why?
 363 2014-10-28 05:06:08 <Luke-Jr> I'll just add a OP_TRUE at the end and it looks like the same address
 364 2014-10-28 05:06:12 <gmaxwell> because you'd get VERY easy lookalikes that do something entirely different.
 365 2014-10-28 05:06:17 torsthaldo has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 366 2014-10-28 05:06:41 <CodeShark> "addresses" aren't meant to be human-readable
 367 2014-10-28 05:06:52 <Luke-Jr> …
 368 2014-10-28 05:07:04 <CodeShark> you can also create lookalike SSH keys - but nobody ever complains about that because we never work with them in UIs
 369 2014-10-28 05:07:08 <gmaxwell> They are, for better or worse. At least minimally so, and they're widely use that way in practice.
 370 2014-10-28 05:07:13 <Luke-Jr> if you don't compare addresses at all, you will lose money :P
 371 2014-10-28 05:07:27 <CodeShark> comparing addresses is something for my CPU to do, not me
 372 2014-10-28 05:07:42 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: so let's all use payment protocol, rather than addresses
 373 2014-10-28 05:08:28 <joeykrug> i love the payment protocol, wish more mobile wallets supported it
 374 2014-10-28 05:08:47 <Luke-Jr> I wish I could use it without jumping through hoops <.<
 375 2014-10-28 05:09:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: its important to distinguish between ideal use, common use, and worst case use.  Ideal usage is great, but it's important that the worst case be as reasonably safe as possible... especially when the common use looks a lot like the worst case.
 376 2014-10-28 05:10:02 joeykrug has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 377 2014-10-28 05:10:05 <CodeShark> if you want to work around the "lookalike" issue, then we could explicitly encode the bytes before and after the hash160 in some manner other than base58 - and get rid of the version bytes while we're at it
 378 2014-10-28 05:10:31 <Luke-Jr> …
 379 2014-10-28 05:10:56 <justanotheruser> CodeShark: the beginning and end aren't the only place you can change the script
 380 2014-10-28 05:11:13 <gmaxwell> Yea, better make sure whatever we've got is a suicide pact to never do anything differently or compatibly with a larger ecosystem. :)
 381 2014-10-28 05:11:33 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: sure, but doesn't matter, it could internally use a cryptographic permutation.
 382 2014-10-28 05:11:45 <justanotheruser> that too
 383 2014-10-28 05:12:45 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: in any case, for better or worse addresses are trying to be very small, at non-trivial expense.... if you abandon small there are much better things that can be done.
 384 2014-10-28 05:12:55 fanquake_ has joined
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 386 2014-10-28 05:13:01 <CodeShark> the "lookalike" thing sounds like a mitm…which the current scheme is not immune to anyhow (unless you use the payment protocol)
 387 2014-10-28 05:13:45 ionstorm has joined
 388 2014-10-28 05:14:40 <CodeShark> we've lost generality in our encoding for the sake of a couple of bytes and a (in my IMO) negligible reduction in mitm risk
 389 2014-10-28 05:14:45 <justanotheruser> how is the system not vulnerable to MiTM? If someone is in the middle of you and a merchant (likely one that doesn't know to use ssl), they could serve you a wrong address
 390 2014-10-28 05:14:53 fanquake has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
 391 2014-10-28 05:14:53 fanquake_ is now known as fanquake
 392 2014-10-28 05:15:07 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: kinda, but you get fun attacks like putting lookalines in places that list multiple addresses, or getting confused about which ones are in your copy buffers.
 393 2014-10-28 05:15:07 <justanotheruser> you can pay someone you already have the pubkey of ofcourse
 394 2014-10-28 05:15:37 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the lookalike can be prevented without any compromises (perhaps beyond implementation complexity)
 395 2014-10-28 05:16:10 <gmaxwell> and a couple bytes is material, if you don't care about size... payment protocol already explicitly can send seralized scriptPubKeys.
 396 2014-10-28 05:16:50 <CodeShark> anyhow, my point earlier was that treating the hash160 AS the scriptPubKey is precisely the kind of confusion I was referring to
 397 2014-10-28 05:16:56 <CodeShark> we're mixing two levels of abstracion
 398 2014-10-28 05:17:04 <kryo_> hi friends, what's a hash160?
 399 2014-10-28 05:17:17 <CodeShark> if the scriptPubKey is to be treated as a cryptographic pubkey, then we can only talk about it in this sense in its entirety
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 402 2014-10-28 05:17:39 <Luke-Jr> kryo_: this channel is for bitcoin development. participating in conversations therefore requires a bare minimum idea of how bitcoin works. you lack that, so please stick to #bitcoin for talking
 403 2014-10-28 05:17:58 <kryo_> are you going to ban me?
 404 2014-10-28 05:18:00 <kryo_> :(
 405 2014-10-28 05:18:08 <justanotheruser> kryo_: I answered you
 406 2014-10-28 05:18:20 <Luke-Jr> kryo_: if you're silent, probably you won't ever be banned here
 407 2014-10-28 05:18:43 <kryo_> :P
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 414 2014-10-28 05:33:29 <kryo_> Luke-Jr: does having "a bare minimum idea of how bitcoin works" include memorizing every opcode in bitcoin Script?
 415 2014-10-28 05:34:36 <kryo_> no offense but you guys seem very quick to judge my level of understanding
 416 2014-10-28 05:35:37 <phantomcircuit> <kryo_> hi friends, what's a hash160?
 417 2014-10-28 05:35:43 <phantomcircuit> uh huh
 418 2014-10-28 05:36:51 <kryo_> that was a joke
 419 2014-10-28 05:36:54 Emcy_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 421 2014-10-28 05:37:06 <kryo_> i'm refferring to earlier, specifically when i was talking to sipa
 422 2014-10-28 05:37:34 <phantomcircuit> k
 423 2014-10-28 05:37:41 <Luke-Jr> sarcasm does not translate well over IRC
 424 2014-10-28 05:38:12 simondlr has joined
 425 2014-10-28 05:39:43 <justanotheruser> kryo_: if that was sarcasm you're trolling. You asked me what system HASH160 was for in #bitcoin
 426 2014-10-28 05:41:45 maaku_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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 429 2014-10-28 05:42:19 <kryo_> like i said, it was a joke, but i was genuinely curious about what CodeShark was talking about
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 432 2014-10-28 05:43:11 <CodeShark> sarcasm only translates well if it's sufficiently sarcastic
 433 2014-10-28 05:43:12 <CodeShark> :)
 434 2014-10-28 05:43:26 <kryo_> i thought maybe if i called you guys my "friends" someone would get it
 435 2014-10-28 05:43:27 <CodeShark> you should ask "what's a pubkey?"
 436 2014-10-28 05:44:18 <phantomcircuit> your problem is, people actually ask questions like that all the time
 437 2014-10-28 05:44:41 <kryo_> yeah it's a shame
 438 2014-10-28 05:44:55 CheckDavid has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
 439 2014-10-28 05:44:57 <iwilcox> No, it's fine.  On #bitcoin.
 440 2014-10-28 05:45:50 <kryo_> interrupting discussion with a stupid question that could easily be answered with a google search is not fine on any channel
 441 2014-10-28 05:46:01 <iwilcox> Really?  <kryo_>    hey guys what's the point of transaction fees?
 442 2014-10-28 05:46:08 <kryo_> lol
 443 2014-10-28 05:46:32 _yoy_ has joined
 444 2014-10-28 05:46:37 <kryo_> https://blockchain.info/block-index/485355/00000000000000000fa116bd0aeb52ccc2b7aa927e88999d37895490fc6a929c
 445 2014-10-28 05:46:51 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
 446 2014-10-28 05:46:56 <kryo_> Block Reward: 25 BTC
 447 2014-10-28 05:47:16 <kryo_> Fees: 0.00565652 BTC
 448 2014-10-28 05:47:41 <kryo_> seems utterly pointless to me
 449 2014-10-28 05:48:01 <phantomcircuit> kryo_, https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
 450 2014-10-28 05:48:07 <CodeShark> lol
 451 2014-10-28 05:48:09 <kryo_> the block reward will halve
 452 2014-10-28 05:48:13 <kryo_> which kinda makes up for it
 453 2014-10-28 05:48:26 <phantomcircuit> either you haven't read that
 454 2014-10-28 05:48:30 <phantomcircuit> or you need to read it again
 455 2014-10-28 05:48:38 <kryo_> but 5 mBTC is not very much
 456 2014-10-28 05:48:50 <kryo_> will the transaction fees ever be much more than 5 mBTC?
 457 2014-10-28 05:49:09 * Luke-Jr proposes we drop this conversation and let kryo_ save face by shutting up in here
 458 2014-10-28 05:49:09 <kryo_> no i haven't read the friggin bitcoin whitepaper
 459 2014-10-28 05:49:11 <kryo_> are you insane?
 460 2014-10-28 05:49:25 <Luke-Jr> … too late I guess XD
 461 2014-10-28 05:50:11 ak__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 463 2014-10-28 05:51:11 <phantomcircuit> kryo_, it's in basically plain english
 464 2014-10-28 05:51:44 <kryo_> yeah tbh it doesn't look too bad
 465 2014-10-28 05:51:48 <kryo_> maybe some day
 466 2014-10-28 05:54:21 <CodeShark> consider doing so as a prerequisite for this channel
 467 2014-10-28 05:55:07 <kryo_> #bitcoin-dev: Total of 475 nicks
 468 2014-10-28 05:55:08 <kryo_> ok
 469 2014-10-28 05:55:17 <kryo_> you got it m8
 470 2014-10-28 05:57:16 <gmaxwell> s/for this channel/for talking in this channel/
 471 2014-10-28 05:57:18 <Luke-Jr> 475 people *watching*
 472 2014-10-28 05:57:36 <kryo_> lol...
 473 2014-10-28 05:57:45 slashroot_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
 474 2014-10-28 05:58:03 <kryo_> ok well from now on i will participate only in discussions which i feel i can contribute something to
 475 2014-10-28 05:58:25 <kryo_> sorry you're all so offended by me
 476 2014-10-28 05:59:49 <CodeShark> I don't think anyone is really offended. however, it is HIGHLY encouraged that you do as much of your own research as you can before coming into this channel and asking questions
 477 2014-10-28 06:01:44 <CodeShark> it's fine to ask where you can find materials - but don't expect anyone here to give you a bitcoin 101 course
 478 2014-10-28 06:02:31 Eiii has quit ()
 479 2014-10-28 06:05:23 <kryo_> i don't expect that
 480 2014-10-28 06:05:25 <kryo_> at all
 481 2014-10-28 06:07:20 <CodeShark> is wumpus here yet?
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 501 2014-10-28 06:41:18 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes
 502 2014-10-28 06:41:26 <CodeShark> hey wumpus :)
 503 2014-10-28 06:41:35 <CodeShark> I completely missed the rpcdump stuff - sorry :)
 504 2014-10-28 06:41:52 <CodeShark> the function table doesn't break down the wallet functions by file
 505 2014-10-28 06:42:44 <CodeShark> a strange thing happened, though - apparently PAIRTYPE was undefined in the no wallet build after I made these changes - which is strange considering I didn't change any of that
 506 2014-10-28 06:42:56 <CodeShark> but the issue went away when I included utilstrencodings.h
 507 2014-10-28 06:42:57 <wumpus> well I was positively surprised you had almost all of them correct :)
 508 2014-10-28 06:43:31 ak__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 510 2014-10-28 06:44:25 <CodeShark> did something change in the travis ci build environment? or am I missing something?
 511 2014-10-28 06:44:28 <wumpus> and indeed they're not sorted by file, on purpose - the distribution of the functions over files could be changed at some point to match the new groupings, this could also save an #ifdef wallet or two
 512 2014-10-28 06:45:09 tinybike has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 513 2014-10-28 06:45:49 <wumpus> no, nothing changed in travis AFAIK
 514 2014-10-28 06:46:44 da2ce7 has joined
 515 2014-10-28 06:46:47 <CodeShark> strange...
 516 2014-10-28 06:46:58 <CodeShark> it builds now - but I had to add an extra include I didn't have before
 517 2014-10-28 06:48:16 <CodeShark> I'd like to start working on the method registration mechanism
 518 2014-10-28 06:49:15 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: should I get rid of the RPC error code response aliases entirely, commentify them, or leave them?
 519 2014-10-28 06:50:48 <CodeShark> seems like the sensible approach is to turn CRPCCommand into a callable base class with a virtual () method and pull the mapCommands out of CRPCTable and make it a singleton
 520 2014-10-28 06:50:49 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I was fine with adding them
 521 2014-10-28 06:51:23 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: people use that file as reference for what the codes are called, so if that suddenly changes, that may be strange, so do add at least a comment
 522 2014-10-28 06:51:43 <wumpus> (people need to update their python, java, etc bindings)
 523 2014-10-28 06:51:51 <CodeShark> or perhaps the CRPCTable class can take care of the lookup and throw exceptions if the method isn't found
 524 2014-10-28 06:51:58 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: right now, they're renamed with an alias and a comment stating the aliases are "for backward compatibility"
 525 2014-10-28 06:52:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: right, that's a way of documenting it, that's why i didn't comment on it, but I'll reply to the issue...
 526 2014-10-28 06:52:56 <CodeShark> wumpus: I would also propose foregoing the typedef json_spirit::Value(*rpcfn_type)(const json_spirit::Array& params, bool fHelp); style in favor of either boost::function or std::function
 527 2014-10-28 06:54:03 webdeli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 528 2014-10-28 06:58:10 <CodeShark> I think I'll keep the CRPCCommand and CRPCTable classes but get rid of the hardcoded table and replace it with explicit method registration calls as a first step
 529 2014-10-28 06:58:44 <Luke-Jr> why not have CRPCCommand::CRPCCommand add itself to the table?
 530 2014-10-28 06:59:00 <wumpus> CodeShark: good idea
 531 2014-10-28 07:00:19 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that sounds too magical
 532 2014-10-28 07:00:32 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: registration is the responsibility of the RPC server class (which doesn't exist yet)
 533 2014-10-28 07:00:40 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I do that magic in C too :p
 534 2014-10-28 07:00:56 <CodeShark> for now we have a defacto RPC server singleton object
 535 2014-10-28 07:01:00 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: then, people look at the source and wonder *wtf how does this work in the first place* :)
 536 2014-10-28 07:01:05 <CodeShark> heh
 537 2014-10-28 07:01:17 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, bitcoin is magical though why not use magic?
 538 2014-10-28 07:01:19 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: nah, registration is pretty obvious like that IMO
 539 2014-10-28 07:01:19 * phantomcircuit runs
 540 2014-10-28 07:01:58 <CodeShark> the defacto RPC server singleton object has an interface enclosed in a namespace - but eventually the idea is to create an RPC server class, allowing an application to instantiate instances at will
 541 2014-10-28 07:02:12 <CodeShark> instantiate instances - lol
 542 2014-10-28 07:02:21 <Luke-Jr> it'd be nice to eliminate merge conflicts resulting from simply adding new methods
 543 2014-10-28 07:03:21 <CodeShark> CRPCCommand instances should be subclasses that overload precall checking methods and operator()
 544 2014-10-28 07:03:33 ionstorm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 545 2014-10-28 07:03:59 <CodeShark> but that will be the next stage
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 615 2014-10-28 08:40:18 <Luke-Jr> 5106 good to go now? :p
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 622 2014-10-28 09:01:59 <adlai> "Error: Cannot obtain a lock on data directory /home/adlai/.bitcoin. Bitcoin Core is probably already running." it actually had an unclean shutdown, what should I purge to get it running again?
 623 2014-10-28 09:02:21 <phantomcircuit> adlai, are you *sure* it's not still running
 624 2014-10-28 09:03:03 <adlai> well this is weird, tmux killed the pane but evidently the process lives on.
 625 2014-10-28 09:03:21 <phantomcircuit> yup
 626 2014-10-28 09:03:26 <adlai> thanks >_<
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 630 2014-10-28 09:06:16 <adlai> "Do you want to rebuild the block database now?" but then exits without waiting for any response, will a -reindex fix this?
 631 2014-10-28 09:06:26 <sipa> yes
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 633 2014-10-28 09:10:20 <wumpus> well this is weird, tmux killed the pane but evidently the process lives on. <- yes, it tries to do a clean shutdown if it gets a SIGINT or SIGTERM so it lingers around for a while
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 653 2014-10-28 09:34:01 <CodeShark> wumpus: this is a start - https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/tree/RPC_command_registration
 654 2014-10-28 09:35:05 <CodeShark> more specifically: https://github.com/CodeShark/bitcoin/commit/4280cc42a6a55603422d58d18c85d1f91d79bc7d
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 770 2014-10-28 12:48:35 <michagogo> sipa, Luke-Jr: um, right, sorry. It was 3 AM at the time... :P
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 778 2014-10-28 12:53:31 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: what? you mean you're not most aware around 3 AM? :P
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 783 2014-10-28 13:00:29 <sipa> he's most awake around 3 AM EST
 784 2014-10-28 13:00:34 <sipa> wait, that's now
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 787 2014-10-28 13:09:05 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no, it's 9 AM EDT now
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 791 2014-10-28 13:12:35 <fanquake> I thought it was 9PM..
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 806 2014-10-28 13:22:20 <ben_vulpes> what is CreateDataDir in this context: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/qa/rpc-tests/conflictedbalance.sh#L40 ?
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 808 2014-10-28 13:25:06 <ben_vulpes> ah that's gotta be the python bitcoinrpc lib
 809 2014-10-28 13:25:53 <ben_vulpes> maybe?
 810 2014-10-28 13:25:55 * ben_vulpes is confused
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 826 2014-10-28 13:44:29 <wumpus> ben_vulpes: that function comes from util.sh
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 831 2014-10-28 13:46:11 <ben_vulpes> wumpus: why so it does.
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 833 2014-10-28 13:46:36 <wumpus> ?
 834 2014-10-28 13:46:46 <ben_vulpes> i'm just agreeing.
 835 2014-10-28 13:46:59 <wumpus> ok! :)
 836 2014-10-28 13:47:23 <ben_vulpes> how does conflictedbalance.sh know of that function in the other file, though?
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 854 2014-10-28 14:01:54 <elichai2>  /j #oneplus
 855 2014-10-28 14:01:56 <elichai2> ops
 856 2014-10-28 14:06:49 <wumpus> ben_vulpes: it includes the file
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 873 2014-10-28 14:21:27 <ben_vulpes> i cannot believe that i missed that. up too early, apparently.
 874 2014-10-28 14:21:37 <ben_vulpes> thanks, wumpus.
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 942 2014-10-28 16:05:38 <gavinandresen> k (because eleven)
 943 2014-10-28 16:06:09 <sipa> q (because 0x11)
 944 2014-10-28 16:06:29 <gavinandresen> I only hex on halloween
 945 2014-10-28 16:07:07 <sipa> you know that 'witch' in dutch is 'heks' (pronounced 'hex') ?
 946 2014-10-28 16:07:09 <gavinandresen> sipa: re: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/5138  headers first never gets going bug:
 947 2014-10-28 16:07:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: yes, i know, will fix
 948 2014-10-28 16:07:22 <gavinandresen> cool
 949 2014-10-28 16:07:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: fighting jetlag atm
 950 2014-10-28 16:07:44 <gavinandresen> no worries, I’d be happy to fix if you tell me what you’re thinking, I’ve got a good test case
 951 2014-10-28 16:08:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: the "don't fetch from incoming peers" logic should be disabled if there are only incoming peers
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 955 2014-10-28 16:13:18 <gavinandresen> sipa: mmm, I looked at implementing that, it looked messy (e.g. main.cpp loops through vNodes after locking cs_vnodes? )
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 957 2014-10-28 16:14:03 <sipa> gavinandresen: main should just keep its own independent counter (incremented/decremented in InitializeNode/FinalizeNode
 958 2014-10-28 16:14:33 <sipa> which can also correctly ignore non-NODE_SERVICE nodes etc
 959 2014-10-28 16:14:45 <sipa> or fOneShot ones
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 977 2014-10-28 16:32:59 <sipa> gavinandresen: whipping up a patch
 978 2014-10-28 16:33:35 <gavinandresen> sipa: spiffy keen, thanks
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 983 2014-10-28 16:42:37 <sipa> gavinandresen: #5157, untested
 984 2014-10-28 16:43:24 <gavinandresen> sipa: I’ll exercise it after lunch
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 987 2014-10-28 16:51:57 <brocktice> Is there a dedicated trezor channel? I have a question about BIP-0032
 988 2014-10-28 16:52:15 <sipa> i know nothing about trezors, but i wrote bip 32
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 990 2014-10-28 16:52:40 <brocktice> mytrezor.com generates a seed when you set up the device
 991 2014-10-28 16:52:45 <brocktice> made of random words
 992 2014-10-28 16:52:54 <sipa> that sounds like bip 39
 993 2014-10-28 16:53:02 <brocktice> hm ok let me look
 994 2014-10-28 16:53:56 <brocktice> ahhhh yes OK
 995 2014-10-28 16:54:00 <brocktice> this is everything I need
 996 2014-10-28 16:54:01 <brocktice> thanks!
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1025 2014-10-28 17:37:14 <rubensayshi> sipa, just to make sure, there's no way to get bitcoind to not use headers-first right?
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1028 2014-10-28 17:42:37 <Luke-Jr> rubensayshi: you mean like using 0.9?
1029 2014-10-28 17:42:57 <rubensayshi> Luke-Jr, for now that does the trick yea :P
1030 2014-10-28 17:43:35 <rubensayshi> but I'd like to upgrade when it's actually released
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1035 2014-10-28 17:46:33 <gmaxwell> rubensayshi: what are you trying to accomplish?
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1038 2014-10-28 17:47:28 <rubensayshi> gmaxwell, there are some projects that use the raw data files to index the blockchain (insight-api and couterpartyd that I know of)
1039 2014-10-28 17:47:40 <rubensayshi> they break when the blocks aren't in order
1040 2014-10-28 17:48:45 <rubensayshi> I just wanted to make sure there wasn't just a simple option to disable the headers-first sync before spending a lot of time fixing it
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1043 2014-10-28 17:49:30 <rubensayshi> which I completely if there isn't btw, a lot of hassle to support 2 methods, specially if one is obviously better :)
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1045 2014-10-28 17:51:15 <gmaxwell> Ah. well directly mucking with the data files is pretty inadvisable, we'll probably break it in future versions too.  No, no easy way to appease there; and you wouldn't want to turn it off since its often a 10x speedup for synchronization (and growing).
1046 2014-10-28 17:51:21 <rubensayshi> I guess the fix isn't too hard, just parse the index instead of blindly parsing the blk files
1047 2014-10-28 17:51:37 <rubensayshi> for now
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1049 2014-10-28 17:52:14 <rubensayshi> both those projects just use the parsing of the data files to speed up the initial import and then use the rpc once it is caught up
1050 2014-10-28 17:52:41 <gmaxwell> it shouldn't parse the index, that would just increase the vulnerabily to breaking. Things should connect to the p2p port and fetch blocks, or the rpc. ... or maybe index them themselves (but as mentioned, we'll break this again almost certantly).
1051 2014-10-28 17:52:43 <michagogo> rubensayshi: don't even need that
1052 2014-10-28 17:52:56 <michagogo> You could look at how linearize does it
1053 2014-10-28 17:53:07 <michagogo> Read the files, build a chain
1054 2014-10-28 17:53:26 <michagogo> If you see an orphan, save its hash and position in the file somewhere
1055 2014-10-28 17:53:39 <michagogo> And maybe its prevblock
1056 2014-10-28 17:54:16 <rubensayshi> hmm, thanks for pointing that one out, I'll take a look
1057 2014-10-28 17:55:12 <rubensayshi> gmaxwell, the default is using the rpc/p2p network, it's a dirty alternative to speed up the initial import
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1059 2014-10-28 17:56:21 <rubensayshi> so it's not a big disaster now and it won't be the next time changes are made, but it doesn't hurt to keep it going for as long as possible :D
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1064 2014-10-28 17:57:39 <gmaxwell> rubensayshi: just assume every major version will break it. Our files on disk aren't a 'supported api'. :)
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1066 2014-10-28 17:58:45 <rubensayshi> I do, and I don't intend to drop my database so I don't care that much, just wanted to fix it for new users :)
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1258 2014-10-28 21:58:20 <coryfields_> gmaxwell: ping
1259 2014-10-28 21:58:40 <gmaxwell> pong
1260 2014-10-28 21:58:58 Plasmastar has joined
1261 2014-10-28 21:59:21 <coryfields_> gmaxwell: a few days ago we briefly discussed how the script interpreter could return error numbers rather than logging directly
1262 2014-10-28 21:59:26 mrkent has joined
1263 2014-10-28 21:59:45 <coryfields_> did you have any specifics in mind for that? or just was that just a general idea?
1264 2014-10-28 22:00:00 <coryfields_> (that's now the only thing standing in the way of removing boost)
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1266 2014-10-28 22:03:19 <gmaxwell> It was just a general idea. I don't have too much specifics in mind other than it shouldn't overload the path where success/failure is returned.
1267 2014-10-28 22:03:48 <gmaxwell> E.g. taking some errors object (could just be an integer pointer) and updating it if its set is probably fine.
1268 2014-10-28 22:03:51 <coryfields_> reason i ask is that those values would become part of the consensus lib api, so i don't want to hastily create arbitrary return values
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1270 2014-10-28 22:05:47 <coryfields_> ok
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1272 2014-10-28 22:07:26 <coryfields_> would there be much value from the caller-side to have real return values? Would a pointer to a string that would be filled in with an error message suffice?
1273 2014-10-28 22:09:03 <mrmadden> Is there a way to donate to bitcoin core dev without going through a 3rd party like BF or tip4commit?
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1281 2014-10-28 22:15:24 <michagogo> mrmadden: Sure, decide who you want to donate to and ask them for an address
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1285 2014-10-28 22:20:38 <gmaxwell> FWIW, I finally re-PRed the replacement for the fallback external IP discovery: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5161
1286 2014-10-28 22:25:09 <chmod755> gmaxwell, that's great. i actually read that part today after a long time and was surprised that it's still hardcoded
1287 2014-10-28 22:26:36 <gmaxwell> chmod755: please feel free to test. I think even if I screwed it up, its less bad than using the external service stuff... but always good to have more testing.
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